You said LITERALLY every micro interaction I’ve been preaching about this matchup on why I think Bayo Gren is even to slightly Bayo favored at best. There’s so many little adjustments you can make and scenarios that are fine for Grens advantage if you prep for them, and that was always Gren player’s biggest problem when I was helping them learn the MU A friend I have quite literally thought Bayo was Gren’s worst matchup, I taught him the matchup, and he’s beaten every Bayo since. Ty for validating me further, I love you
Man, it's nice seeing how much you've leveled up since we've played. I never knew you were such a pioneer for Greninja; perhaps it's your fault that CSTAT was infested with Greninjas lol. Great content, bro! (Gideon, Kirby/Yoshi main)
Which tournament? I checked and there is no video out of the 5 I checked where Anarchy won. At queen city he won both times and that's the most recent one
Lima's 9-4 against Anarchy, and has won their 2 most recent sets. It's nothing out of the ordinary for lima to lose to him once in a while just due to how often they play against each other.
17 minutes of Greninja facts, defense, jokes and glaze?? Oh I'm here for it. As an all-time Greninja fan and occasional Greninja player, I am eating for REAL (nah like I literally am eating right now, I'm eating chicken while watching lol).
Man, I used to main Greninja back in Sm4sh and dropped him in ultimate. But after seeing this video, I'm seriously considering picking him back up again.
As a bayo main I definitely agree with most of the video. Playing this mu with a greninja that actually knows how to fight bayo is genuinely frustrating. I feel the same with sheik where both her and greninja’s frame data, burst options, low profiling and speed makes it so hard for bayo to actually land or get a good opening. Being constantly frame trapped and being able to keep bayo in disadvantage for most of the match makes the mu favor greninja imo. I do think that bayo as character just has a ton of mixups and can cheese greninja sometimes. While greninja wins a majority of exchanges, bayo can still take a stock in a few interactions. While it’s hard to get an opening, her punish game is still insane and witch time is a threat that you can’t ignore. Her ability to adapt and create weird scenarios that take a lot of mu experience to understand are just some things that makes it hard to fully win against her, but overall greninja beats bayo in a lot of ways.
Thank you for another knowledgeable and super entertaining video. And ofc it's only Twitter that will try to attack you for something than taking it as a joke and a learning opportunity. Hats off to you for actually addressing it for the people on Smash Twitter(Idk if Lima knows that this is just a joke, but I think he is just trolling...I hope😅)
Well fucking done, really enjoyed this video and how you went through each specific interaction with video proof. Not a Greninja main but always like seeing in depth analysis like this.
Hey, I'm one of the Bayos u screenshotted, haha This is a really good video and I learnt a lot. I personally love the Greninja matchup and I feel very confident in it but the stuff you found is really really cool. I think the matchup is tough for Greninja, cuz bayo is just so fucked but with the way uoure going u could actually make it an even matchup lmao. Overall great video
OMG I'M SO HYPED I LOVE YOUR CONTENT SO MUCH APO ! You're one of the rare content creators that is able to make content to a such deep level of understanding and skill, that I go back watching the videos every single month and each time learn new thing. Thank you so much for your dedication I can't wait to watch this one, you should have seen my face when I saw the thumbnail lol Love from France ❤
Really good video! Good stuff Apo. It's a well-thought out video idea. Should help the concept of going forward with so many MUs in a game like Ultimate. Cheers to 2025
For me, Greninja is the same as Mega Man or Ice Climbers or, Pac-Man; I have no fucking clue how it works, and I’ll never get it no matter how much I try
As a Bayonetta player. Greninja is not necessarily a difficult MU, but rather a really annoying. I have never felt any real struggle against a Greninja though (so far)
I get why people say that gren doesn’t work well against bayo, but if you get good with it, it should say something when someone picks bayo I tend to opt for gren
What about other directions for directional airdodge? I've seen one tweet about pika up throw thunder only works on airdodge out maybe the same thing happens here? Also a lot of these counterplay sounds like risky matchup checks/gimmicks that can just be conditioned, or just an even interaction instead of hard winning
It can be a tough matchup but dude.... "directional bats doesnt work in this specific scenario" is doing some heavy lifting. You seem to think because bayo can be frame trapped that bayo is somehow bad vs greninja....when most characters dont get that option, they just get to die. Heel slide can throw people off because of bayos height, you can normally hit a tall character dashing pretty high up with an earlier nair, but with heel slide you have to use it pretty low, so then either you miss the nair or you get hit by another option because you wanted to use it low. Honestly the most annoying thing about fighting greninja is the low profile but you can just do a low abk, run off a ledge then abk back onto stage for a super low one or use fair 1 then abk. He can still crouch it but i think like half the cast can. And as a last thing, most greninjas LOVE shadowsneak offstage and if you can give him a reason to use it more, that means its super baitable and hard punishable. Learning the matchup can be tough because you dont have as much control compared to other characters but its very doable.
Remember you can grab and throw him and that will remove his revenge. Also, he's as slow as a snail compared to you. Don't just always run in. He's most likely just gonna play defensive and wait for you to go in. You also have a projectile, he doesn't.
Morale of the story, form your own opinion. Just try and not be as dumb as me, lol. I've been saying for years that Ganondorf really isn't even that bad in Ultimate, y'all just not doing it right. Am I dumb for saying Ganon is a mid tier? Yeah. But it's my own opinion and I've gained a lot of knowledge studying and labbing this character. I wouldn't have my opinion if I didn't know what I was talking about to a degree.
This is a good resource to learn the matchup but it doesnt make the matchup losing for bayonetta or that bayonetta doesnt work against greninja. In fact most of this video is simply explaining some of the ways greninja CAN work against bayonetta and doesnt necessarily display things that highlight that gren actually has a favorable matchup. Let's start with the dash attack crossup discussion. First of all, if from experience you can usually tell if the move is going to cross up by the time dash attack hits your shield by its spacing and bayo can act accordingly and punish it. And simply being able to punish an up b isnt anything special, if anything you have to look for just that to punish and thats a bad thing since up b isnt bayos only oos. Next lets look at the bats within frame traps. Yes you can still frame trap but thats like every character and bayo still gets out easier than most. This again only is counterplay to make the matchup slightly more bearable. And one more thing is that youre treating a minor frame advantage at most as if it were a punish. Things like dtilt on shield can be safe or unsafe depending on spacing and your opponent can also grab, hold shield, jump away or do whatever they want. Its not a clear advantage especially when greninja already suffers from people holding shield. Moving onto grab combos, you already have to do a 50 50 on throw di because uthrow loses to di in and dthrow loses to di out. Bayo can also like air dodge sideways or SDI the upair to choose the launch direction and/or prevent follow ups. For fair vs heel slide, yes a well spaced aerial can beat it out but so can a well spaced heel slide beat out an aerial. It depends on the exact spacing, and bayo low profiling shifts the timing game in her favor because gren's window gets smaller. For ledgetrapping, Water shuriken full charge doesnt connect against ledgehang against bayo(and most ledgehangs) so you can just roll in time for the release because unlike how someone like samus can cancel and store the charge, water shuriken cant do that, basically wait until you release it, and theyre out of ledge for free. Fsmash to cover 4 options isnt reactable , and youre reacting to normal getup and getup attack at best. Covering jump and roll are different timings and theres a ton of timing mixups your opponent can choose. Its a regular fsmash for ledgetrapping and thats all it is. If anything its worse because its not exactly a strong fsmash And for the grab 3 option thing the problem with greninja's ledge trapping in the first place is its reward. You can simply accept the grab most of the time it doesnt even hurt a lot most of the time. And its not like ledgedrop and ledge jump dont exist. For bayo i dont remember ledgetrapping being a strength of bayo in the first place. But for beating ledgehangs ledgetrump is a universal option and you cant hold forever anyway Lastly for edgeguarding shadow sneak being some kind of magic reversal option isnt even close to the truth. You can see the speed change in the air and know exactly where the ss goes since you cant control the shadow aside from charge time. Essentially this means the mixup isnt anything more than a matchup check. And you can punish the immense endlag of ss for a kill. Overall you have to put in extra work just to simply get your options to work, and mosf dont even get you on equal footing, it just makes it slightly better than the status quo. That sounds like a losing matchup to me
Against gren up b IS the only out of shield move for Bayo. Only grab against bad space aerials can be an other one. Against all the other aerials gren low profiles all of them. Also it's true you can guess if gren is going to cross up but not how you said it. You can understand it by how far Greninja is from Bayo, not by the time dash attack hits the shield, if you do that gren is already out of endlag ( gren dash attack is a reactble as fox dash attack). For ledgetrapping, no uses maz shuriken against bayo ( considering she has also witch time), you just take stage control and take advantage of gren low profiling by positioning in the exact spot showed by the video. Even if you don't get the reward( even though you can with Up tilt and Up smash), the important thing is you are still doing pressure cause you are either cornering Bayo or she is above Greninja (which is good for Gren). Fsmash for ledgetrapping is too much skill based, but the fact it's not strong, it isn't true ; it's a tiny bit above average at least and considering how light Bayo is, she dies at ledge near 60-70%. All the other things I kinda agree
@hope7237 "Against gren up b IS the only out of shield option for Bayo" As a punish against aerials, yes, but the video showcases grounded moves as well, dtilt is -12, dash attack is -13, both can be punished by grab oos(f11) which is the main point i was making. Oos is also not exclusively limited to punishing moves. Doing a f 9 oos against a -5 move isn't a wrong option. it's just not guaranteed to hit. It can catch your opponents next option or do something else that can help you. On a sidenote, grab cant punish badly spaced aerials, bair is -7/-8 nair is -3/-4 Fair is -6. "It's true that you can guess if gren is going to cross up but not how you said it." I actually did mean what you said, "by the time" which by i meant you would know if it would cross up when it got to the point where it hits shield. Sorry for the miscommunication. "For ledgetrapping, no uses max shuriken against bayo" You're absolutely right, but the video showcased it as an option, so I had to point out a counterplay. "You just take stage control and take advantage of..... cause youre cornering bayo or she is above Greninja" Ledgetrapping is the most extreme form of stage control where the trapper has complete dominance of the stage, you have all the stage control you can possibly have. Its the area where all your pressure stage wise has reached the pinnacle and its time to cash in your well built pressure for actual hits to win the game. "Retaining advantage" applies to just about any character here. Its not an attribute that makes greninja any special, its the same with just about anyone. Which means if youre not able to cash your pressure in for strong damage to your opponent, you're weak in that aspect. This actually highlights the glaring issue with greninja itself, not simply a vs bayo thing. This character simply doesnt get as much reward for the same amount of pressure put on the opponent, meaning your opponent can just kinda accept the pressure, and get out with low damage. "Fsmash for ledgetrapping is at least a tiny bit above average" This isnt true. Although it's not weak for its speed and range, when it comes to absolute strength, it is in the bottom quarter of the cast. A kinda old comparison video (early 2019) but greninjas fsmash ranks at 58th-60th out of 77 in terms of kill percent And for 13.0 comparison, 87th out of 130 but that accounts for various things like little macs down angled fsmash or 0 aura lucario, probably adjusted it would be around 68-70 out of 89 because only 2 dlc characters(base joker and hand/wood/stone steve) kill later than greninja's Its not necessarily a bad fsmash but it gets less reward when it comes to hard reading neutral getups. And yes it is true bayo dies at 60-70 at ledge to an fsmash(probably earlier than that tbh) But other characters can kill at like 40 or 50 with their fsmash because fsmashes in general are very strong.
@@masterwoo4359 it's stronger than Bayo and Sonic's fsmash, so there is that. Also nair -2/-4 not -3/-4 , they fixed it , and it's probably one of the safest nairs in the game. It's just slow (12 frames start up)
@hope7237 bayo and sonic fsmashes arent strong in the first place theyre just long. Nair is only -2/-4 when done from full hop and fully fresh. It's going to be -3/-4 for pretty much 95% of the match
Nah it's probably one of the best match up gren Vs Sephiroth. Sephiroth can hit gren with only bair and side b. That's it... All the other moves you are either extremely lucky or you are one of the best player on the planet at spacing
8:57 reminds me of beginners guide on how to play Mario by Alpharad, loving it lol. th-cam.com/video/VAQ2TuZiPkQ/w-d-xo.htmlsi=22Z_QR6rJ3kTDeGq P.S Better Nerf Greninja 🤷
You could have just said Greninja I short and Bayos hate that therefore Lima's wrong and the video could have ended there but instead we got the Lab goat spitting the Bible. Now that I think about the thing that Bats within doesn't activate on grabs (besides being game changing for any character), it can be applied to Mythra too, whose forsight is even slower giving her a spot of frame 7
Okay but Greninja just doesn't work in general tho.... So like Lima isn't wrong technically XD In all seriousness tho, I really like the videos you are posting. I think you can get points through simple and fast while also not losing all the details needed.
Then why does my Bayo have an 86% win rate against your Greninja? Who you lying to? Us or yourself? I just went into training mode mod and activated bats against your fair 10 times in a row with no misses.
the title's probably just a joke to take a slight jab against lima by reversing his "greninja doesn't work against bayo" also im pretty sure his point about bats was that even if it activates you can still punish it
![[SSBU] The Move That Makes Cloud Good](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LNX18ZToOa4/mqdefault.jpg)
if ur to take a shot at the world's most lab-addicted greninja, you better not -miss- bat's within
I got that reference
*Me never touching smash in a year* “WRITE THAT DOWN!”
Only a year? Those are rookie numbers
You said LITERALLY every micro interaction I’ve been preaching about this matchup on why I think Bayo Gren is even to slightly Bayo favored at best. There’s so many little adjustments you can make and scenarios that are fine for Grens advantage if you prep for them, and that was always Gren player’s biggest problem when I was helping them learn the MU
A friend I have quite literally thought Bayo was Gren’s worst matchup, I taught him the matchup, and he’s beaten every Bayo since. Ty for validating me further, I love you
Man, it's nice seeing how much you've leveled up since we've played. I never knew you were such a pioneer for Greninja; perhaps it's your fault that CSTAT was infested with Greninjas lol. Great content, bro! (Gideon, Kirby/Yoshi main)
Gideon!! I hope that all is well! And yes, I am 100% to blame for College Station's influx of Greninja players haha.
Lima also recently lost to Anarchy which makes those comments funnier
Which tournament? I checked and there is no video out of the 5 I checked where Anarchy won. At queen city he won both times and that's the most recent one
Nah, he's 9-4 against Anarchy and has won the two most recent sets they've had. They just happen to play against each other a lot
Lima's 9-4 against Anarchy, and has won their 2 most recent sets. It's nothing out of the ordinary for lima to lose to him once in a while just due to how often they play against each other.
Lima is like double his wins than loss vs him, stop being delusional lmfao
@@xmalin1 but if they play long enough...
you have such an incredible array of example clips to back up everything you say, amazing content man keep it up
The "HOLD IN" meme being dragged longer than the "low taper fade" kills me
17 minutes of Greninja facts, defense, jokes and glaze?? Oh I'm here for it. As an all-time Greninja fan and occasional Greninja player, I am eating for REAL (nah like I literally am eating right now, I'm eating chicken while watching lol).
Man, I used to main Greninja back in Sm4sh and dropped him in ultimate. But after seeing this video, I'm seriously considering picking him back up again.
he is by far the most interesting character in the game and worth putting time into
As a bayo main I definitely agree with most of the video. Playing this mu with a greninja that actually knows how to fight bayo is genuinely frustrating. I feel the same with sheik where both her and greninja’s frame data, burst options, low profiling and speed makes it so hard for bayo to actually land or get a good opening.
Being constantly frame trapped and being able to keep bayo in disadvantage for most of the match makes the mu favor greninja imo.
I do think that bayo as character just has a ton of mixups and can cheese greninja sometimes. While greninja wins a majority of exchanges, bayo can still take a stock in a few interactions. While it’s hard to get an opening, her punish game is still insane and witch time is a threat that you can’t ignore. Her ability to adapt and create weird scenarios that take a lot of mu experience to understand are just some things that makes it hard to fully win against her, but overall greninja beats bayo in a lot of ways.
Bayonetta from IDAHO trying to dunk on you while not knowing how directional airdodges work.
The jokes write themselves.
Thank you for another knowledgeable and super entertaining video.
And ofc it's only Twitter that will try to attack you for something than taking it as a joke and a learning opportunity. Hats off to you for actually addressing it for the people on Smash Twitter(Idk if Lima knows that this is just a joke, but I think he is just trolling...I hope😅)
really great video, i have rarely seen such a detailed counterplay guide with so many great examples and good explanations
Well fucking done, really enjoyed this video and how you went through each specific interaction with video proof. Not a Greninja main but always like seeing in depth analysis like this.
Hey, I'm one of the Bayos u screenshotted, haha
This is a really good video and I learnt a lot. I personally love the Greninja matchup and I feel very confident in it but the stuff you found is really really cool.
I think the matchup is tough for Greninja, cuz bayo is just so fucked but with the way uoure going u could actually make it an even matchup lmao.
Overall great video
So you gotta be agressive, be be, aggressive
Thats the interesting about characters with good options. They use that option often as auto pilot, ppl need to condition and punish those
My impression was that it's Greninja favored. Sometimes I really just don't understand what other people are seeing in a MU.
you’re seriously inspiring
OMG I'M SO HYPED I LOVE YOUR CONTENT SO MUCH APO !
You're one of the rare content creators that is able to make content to a such deep level of understanding and skill, that I go back watching the videos every single month and each time learn new thing.
Thank you so much for your dedication I can't wait to watch this one, you should have seen my face when I saw the thumbnail lol
Love from France ❤
Bayo main here and I’m curious to see how this plays out in practice if you’re ever short on video ideas
Happy new years Apo, thanks for continuing to teach us froggos:)
W
how to get an awesome toy:
Step one, stert this video
step two, after half a second, press J, left arrow, or 0
everyone else on Twitter's a genius but their names never show up when the results are in.
Love your work. When is the first to 10 money match against lima happening?
Great informative vid and great editing, definitely gotta sub 👍
Fantastic video. Good job homie. Keep it up 🙏🏻
Really good video! Good stuff Apo. It's a well-thought out video idea. Should help the concept of going forward with so many MUs in a game like Ultimate. Cheers to 2025
What this means is your character is as good as you are based on how much mu experience you have.
For me, Greninja is the same as Mega Man or Ice Climbers or, Pac-Man; I have no fucking clue how it works, and I’ll never get it no matter how much I try
I find a video about Greninja, I click it. I see Tarik, I'm happy. I'm a simple man.
Bro rly is the goat of greninja tech and metagame
Where the hell have i heard this before...
watching this not knowing how to do any of this stuff and not even maining greninja or bayo
As a Bayonetta player. Greninja is not necessarily a difficult MU, but rather a really annoying. I have never felt any real struggle against a Greninja though (so far)
The goat is back
This is exactly what I needed, I have trouble against bayo no matter who I play.
I get why people say that gren doesn’t work well against bayo, but if you get good with it, it should say something when someone picks bayo I tend to opt for gren
What about other directions for directional airdodge? I've seen one tweet about pika up throw thunder only works on airdodge out maybe the same thing happens here?
Also a lot of these counterplay sounds like risky matchup checks/gimmicks that can just be conditioned, or just an even interaction instead of hard winning
apolotion upload before the big 2025..
Youre making me want to start playing Smash again.
"It was a good time talking about bombs and c4's while trying not to get caught"
This sounds like a national security threat ooc lmao
7:44 for the directional air dodge what if Greninja utilizes side special just some food for thought?
Damn it’s been a long time since I’ve seen someone just completely disprove an entire opinion by himself 😂😂
make more Match Up video like this
dude i haven't played (or thought about, really?) smash in like 2+ years? but this was awesome good shit
why can't you autocancel a fullhop fair? just delay the fastfall
please turn background music down, a lot :[
fantastic video
As a bayo player i dont think this mu is easy at all, but i still think your arguments in this video are very hopeful and often unrealistic
lima is cooked
alos what is the music in this? intro
It can be a tough matchup but dude.... "directional bats doesnt work in this specific scenario" is doing some heavy lifting. You seem to think because bayo can be frame trapped that bayo is somehow bad vs greninja....when most characters dont get that option, they just get to die. Heel slide can throw people off because of bayos height, you can normally hit a tall character dashing pretty high up with an earlier nair, but with heel slide you have to use it pretty low, so then either you miss the nair or you get hit by another option because you wanted to use it low. Honestly the most annoying thing about fighting greninja is the low profile but you can just do a low abk, run off a ledge then abk back onto stage for a super low one or use fair 1 then abk. He can still crouch it but i think like half the cast can. And as a last thing, most greninjas LOVE shadowsneak offstage and if you can give him a reason to use it more, that means its super baitable and hard punishable. Learning the matchup can be tough because you dont have as much control compared to other characters but its very doable.
slight jab against lima lol
I still think this MU is Even.
dude pls do incin next idk wat to do against him with revenge
Remember you can grab and throw him and that will remove his revenge. Also, he's as slow as a snail compared to you. Don't just always run in. He's most likely just gonna play defensive and wait for you to go in. You also have a projectile, he doesn't.
also max charge shuriken beats revenge
@@Yandere_Slayer i dont grab too often bc if it misses then ima be heavily punished, especially if he has a revenge
@hope7237 actually? I gotta try that sometime
Thx for the tips guys
Bayo players after watching this video 💀
Morale of the story, form your own opinion. Just try and not be as dumb as me, lol.
I've been saying for years that Ganondorf really isn't even that bad in Ultimate, y'all just not doing it right. Am I dumb for saying Ganon is a mid tier? Yeah. But it's my own opinion and I've gained a lot of knowledge studying and labbing this character. I wouldn't have my opinion if I didn't know what I was talking about to a degree.
This is a good resource to learn the matchup but it doesnt make the matchup losing for bayonetta or that bayonetta doesnt work against greninja. In fact most of this video is simply explaining some of the ways greninja CAN work against bayonetta and doesnt necessarily display things that highlight that gren actually has a favorable matchup.
Let's start with the dash attack crossup discussion.
First of all, if from experience you can usually tell if the move is going to cross up by the time dash attack hits your shield by its spacing and bayo can act accordingly and punish it.
And simply being able to punish an up b isnt anything special, if anything you have to look for just that to punish and thats a bad thing since up b isnt bayos only oos.
Next lets look at the bats within frame traps.
Yes you can still frame trap but thats like every character and bayo still gets out easier than most. This again only is counterplay to make the matchup slightly more bearable.
And one more thing is that youre treating a minor frame advantage at most as if it were a punish. Things like dtilt on shield can be safe or unsafe depending on spacing and your opponent can also grab, hold shield, jump away or do whatever they want. Its not a clear advantage especially when greninja already suffers from people holding shield.
Moving onto grab combos, you already have to do a 50 50 on throw di because uthrow loses to di in and dthrow loses to di out. Bayo can also like air dodge sideways or SDI the upair to choose the launch direction and/or prevent follow ups.
For fair vs heel slide, yes a well spaced aerial can beat it out but so can a well spaced heel slide beat out an aerial. It depends on the exact spacing, and bayo low profiling shifts the timing game in her favor because gren's window gets smaller.
For ledgetrapping,
Water shuriken full charge doesnt connect against ledgehang against bayo(and most ledgehangs) so you can just roll in time for the release because unlike how someone like samus can cancel and store the charge, water shuriken cant do that, basically wait until you release it, and theyre out of ledge for free.
Fsmash to cover 4 options isnt reactable , and youre reacting to normal getup and getup attack at best. Covering jump and roll are different timings and theres a ton of timing mixups your opponent can choose. Its a regular fsmash for ledgetrapping and thats all it is. If anything its worse because its not exactly a strong fsmash
And for the grab 3 option thing
the problem with greninja's ledge trapping in the first place is its reward. You can simply accept the grab most of the time it doesnt even hurt a lot most of the time. And its not like ledgedrop and ledge jump dont exist.
For bayo i dont remember ledgetrapping being a strength of bayo in the first place. But for beating ledgehangs ledgetrump is a universal option and you cant hold forever anyway
Lastly for edgeguarding shadow sneak being some kind of magic reversal option isnt even close to the truth.
You can see the speed change in the air and know exactly where the ss goes since you cant control the shadow aside from charge time. Essentially this means the mixup isnt anything more than a matchup check. And you can punish the immense endlag of ss for a kill.
Overall you have to put in extra work just to simply get your options to work, and mosf dont even get you on equal footing, it just makes it slightly better than the status quo.
That sounds like a losing matchup to me
Against gren up b IS the only out of shield move for Bayo. Only grab against bad space aerials can be an other one. Against all the other aerials gren low profiles all of them. Also it's true you can guess if gren is going to cross up but not how you said it. You can understand it by how far Greninja is from Bayo, not by the time dash attack hits the shield, if you do that gren is already out of endlag ( gren dash attack is a reactble as fox dash attack). For ledgetrapping, no uses maz shuriken against bayo ( considering she has also witch time), you just take stage control and take advantage of gren low profiling by positioning in the exact spot showed by the video. Even if you don't get the reward( even though you can with Up tilt and Up smash), the important thing is you are still doing pressure cause you are either cornering Bayo or she is above Greninja (which is good for Gren). Fsmash for ledgetrapping is too much skill based, but the fact it's not strong, it isn't true ; it's a tiny bit above average at least and considering how light Bayo is, she dies at ledge near 60-70%.
All the other things I kinda agree
@hope7237 "Against gren up b IS the only out of shield option for Bayo"
As a punish against aerials, yes, but the video showcases grounded moves as well, dtilt is -12, dash attack is -13, both can be punished by grab oos(f11) which is the main point i was making.
Oos is also not exclusively limited to punishing moves. Doing a f 9 oos against a -5 move isn't a wrong option. it's just not guaranteed to hit. It can catch your opponents next option or do something else that can help you.
On a sidenote, grab cant punish badly spaced aerials, bair is -7/-8 nair is -3/-4
Fair is -6.
"It's true that you can guess if gren is going to cross up but not how you said it."
I actually did mean what you said, "by the time" which by i meant you would know if it would cross up when it got to the point where it hits shield. Sorry for the miscommunication.
"For ledgetrapping, no uses max shuriken against bayo"
You're absolutely right, but the video showcased it as an option, so I had to point out a counterplay.
"You just take stage control and take advantage of..... cause youre cornering bayo or she is above Greninja"
Ledgetrapping is the most extreme form of stage control where the trapper has complete dominance of the stage, you have all the stage control you can possibly have. Its the area where all your pressure stage wise has reached the pinnacle and its time to cash in your well built pressure for actual hits to win the game. "Retaining advantage" applies to just about any character here. Its not an attribute that makes greninja any special, its the same with just about anyone. Which means if youre not able to cash your pressure in for strong damage to your opponent, you're weak in that aspect.
This actually highlights the glaring issue with greninja itself, not simply a vs bayo thing. This character simply doesnt get as much reward for the same amount of pressure put on the opponent, meaning your opponent can just kinda accept the pressure, and get out with low damage.
"Fsmash for ledgetrapping is at least a tiny bit above average"
This isnt true. Although it's not weak for its speed and range, when it comes to absolute strength, it is in the bottom quarter of the cast.
A kinda old comparison video (early 2019) but greninjas fsmash ranks at 58th-60th out of 77 in terms of kill percent
And for 13.0 comparison, 87th out of 130 but that accounts for various things like little macs down angled fsmash or 0 aura lucario, probably adjusted it would be around 68-70 out of 89 because only 2 dlc characters(base joker and hand/wood/stone steve) kill later than greninja's
Its not necessarily a bad fsmash but it gets less reward when it comes to hard reading neutral getups. And yes it is true bayo dies at 60-70 at ledge to an fsmash(probably earlier than that tbh)
But other characters can kill at like 40 or 50 with their fsmash because fsmashes in general are very strong.
@@masterwoo4359 it's stronger than Bayo and Sonic's fsmash, so there is that. Also nair -2/-4 not -3/-4 , they fixed it , and it's probably one of the safest nairs in the game. It's just slow (12 frames start up)
@hope7237 bayo and sonic fsmashes arent strong in the first place theyre just long.
Nair is only -2/-4 when done from full hop and fully fresh. It's going to be -3/-4 for pretty much 95% of the match
And both get slapped by Sephiroth
Nah, Bayo vs Sephiroth is like even at worst. Sephiroth is tall (easy to combo) and light (can kill more consistently than otherwise).
Nah it's probably one of the best match up gren Vs Sephiroth. Sephiroth can hit gren with only bair and side b. That's it... All the other moves you are either extremely lucky or you are one of the best player on the planet at spacing
Who else is waiting
Me man
You rule.
Ready
King
i heavily relate 8:37
8:57 reminds me of beginners guide on how to play Mario by Alpharad, loving it lol.
th-cam.com/video/VAQ2TuZiPkQ/w-d-xo.htmlsi=22Z_QR6rJ3kTDeGq
P.S Better Nerf Greninja 🤷
Ew you called it X
Okay you said twitter later lol but why
You could have just said Greninja I short and Bayos hate that therefore Lima's wrong and the video could have ended there but instead we got the Lab goat spitting the Bible.
Now that I think about the thing that Bats within doesn't activate on grabs (besides being game changing for any character), it can be applied to Mythra too, whose forsight is even slower giving her a spot of frame 7
Everything surrounding this video is so petty lmao
If someone said “This level of gaslighting is insane btw” to me, I’d also be petty
All this talking n labbing, why not just challenge lima to a first to 10 to prove what your saying?🤷🏾♂️
i saw this in like the summer of this year on twitter and no way ur still yapping about it in december 💀💀
That's how putting together a video like this works. You need time to compile the info together, lab interactions, and apply them in real matches
Okay but Greninja just doesn't work in general tho.... So like Lima isn't wrong technically XD
In all seriousness tho, I really like the videos you are posting. I think you can get points through simple and fast while also not losing all the details needed.
Common Lima L
Im convinced labbing is just apoliticians whole personality at this point.
Please dab on bayotards more. The first scourge of Smash
Then why does my Bayo have an 86% win rate against your Greninja? Who you lying to? Us or yourself? I just went into training mode mod and activated bats against your fair 10 times in a row with no misses.
the title's probably just a joke to take a slight jab against lima by reversing his "greninja doesn't work against bayo"
also im pretty sure his point about bats was that even if it activates you can still punish it
No one said gren beat bayo, but it's not even that hard for Gren. It's slightly even
Bayo still wins the matchup lol.
based and friendly reminder Lima still hangs out with Captain Zack. yikes!
bayo mains are the most unlikeable smash main community.
And it's not even close.