Reading reading reading. What I find happens is I go from mentally translating to just understanding the words as I do in English. This has to be done with an understanding of basic pronunciation so you are reading with the correct pronunciation going on inside your head. Then when practicing listening, the translating quagmire dissolves and pronunciation becomes the inherent function. As for the initial basic pronunciation, I found beginner books using syllable breakdown very useful. I will add. when beginning reading it is important to understand word order which is likely different from one's mother tongue. Be prepared for long periods of frustration, but I believe research has shown language learning comes in jumps. You literally go from not being able to understand what you read, to overnight suddenly "getting" it.
I think reading has a special place because it's such a versatile tool. ABR = Always Be Reading. If you can read a bit at a low level then you can read more at a low level, then a lot.There's so much grammar and syntax that needs to be abosrbed and reading is really the only way to do this. For German - reading text at a low level of simplicity will give you the case system, irregular verbs, sentence structure, plurals and basic dialogue. This is a good way to learn such things and in fact it's the ony way to really learn these (in my view). Reading is a very complex skill. At a good level of fluiduty it entails predictive ability (we read ahead without knowing we're doing it) fast recognition - many words are recognised 'at a glance' and are decoded automatically. Listening has a different flow. Literally it just goes past and hopefully you make sense of it (you can of course repeat, use subtitles and pause, read a transcript). With reading you can slow down, re-read things etc. I think you take in a whole sentence in one moment. There are people who can learn well without much reading which is great but I think most would benefit from reading if good material can be found. ChatGPT can help in producing texts with low vocab and complexity. That is what we need especially early in learning. I don't hear much about this, but at some point there was interest in adapting novels so that obsolete or rare words could be replaced to make them more readable with little loss of the story. Similarly, where there is a case system word order becomes much more felxible. But there is nothing to stop material for learners to follow English (or other L1) order so the learner is not overwhelmed.
Yes Loïs you are right finding interesting and comprehensive input is a huge challenge. When I moved to the United States I wanted to become fluent so I stopped to watch or read anything in my native language to focus on my English acquisition.
I also recommend you to pay attention to two channels one is Input English and second is English input. it will be really interesting to see their owners as a guest one day. both of them create comprehensible input for English learners and I'm sure they really will be happy to cooperate with other content creators
I haved used Ai tools, for example, ChatGPT, etc, to great introductory level stories for comprehensible input. I tell the AI to act as a language teacher, give it the paramaters of the story, and then edit the story to my level in the language. For a three paragraph input in English I can generate a 500 word story. I can generate story material that is interesting. And fairly accurate, I can cross-reference the result with other AI translation tools. Those additional tools can read the story to me or I can read it out loud. They are low data text files that I can review over and over.
I also do that with new vocabulary I've garnered from other reading material. I'll take 10 to 15 words and give Chatgpt an assignment: Write a short, simple story for me using these words in any tense. In this way I'm learning and reinforcing vocab in context.
Basically: get some basics of the language (so sit down and study), and watch a lot of tv/movies/podcasts/music. Cuz the first part of comprehensible input is getting some basics in.
Please create this course! It would be amazing. I actually tried to persuade a friend of mine, who has an AI start-up to do this. But I couldn’t persuade him that there was a market for a pure input based language course.
@@loistalagrand Thats really hard to say, its such a personal thing. But I think the simplest material would be commentary on visually interesting videos - one or two people discussing a popular tiktok, for example, explaining what is going on.
Are the timestamps accurate? I watched the section "Flashcards and intentional learning". Flashcards weren't mentioned, were they? An interesting interview nevertheless.
I saw a post on reddit the other day saying FSI used mostly comprehensible input to teach Spanish. I gather from that post and even this interview that what FSI does is in flux.
Comprehensible Input is a religion at this point. They never tell you how long the method typically takes to reach fluency. My recommendation is to pair it with explicit grammar study. It's the best combination. There is absolutely no reason not to do it.
For real. To reach a high level of functional fluency in any language is going to take time no matter what one does. It’s sad that we live in times where we everyone is overtaken with the need to learn how to do everything as fast and efficiently as possible at all times. Usually at the expense of sacrificing what they’d actually like to do/how they’d prefer to learn.
sometimes a lot of people told you how long it takes but in reality not all get it in this period. it's depends on the people so I think it's realistic It don't give you any expectation about it it depends on your efforts and time spending with the language and a lot of other factors that sometimes even hard to count
Jeff pairs it with explicit grammar study in his TH-cam videos where he says things like '"We more often hear this word as an adjective timid TI M I D if someone is timid someone is a little bit afraid someone is lacking confidence they don't have courage to do something"' Here he explains the concept of 'adjective'.
You must have missed that section of the video, starting at roughly @42:00 in and going for several minutes. McQuillan says several things: (1) there are so many variables it's impossible to say anything about how long things take with any degree of precision, (2) rough rule of thumb would be that focussing comprehensible input for 500 hours might get a person to high-level beginner or low-level intermediate proficiency, and (3) in any case focussing on comprehensible input will be much faster than a method that focuses on traditional "learning" of grammar, vocabulary, etc.
I started learning Greek a year ago by basically just going for comprehensible input. Now I am reading Harry Potter and I am stunned how easy it is. I barely have problems understanding each part. I even came to visit Greece and was able to hold conversations - with many mistakes and a lot of help from the natives of course but nevertheless actual conversations that were not on superficial touristy topics. So when it comes to my experience, it doesn't take much time at all. Actually I am stunned how far I've come in such a short time. Even without reaching a point where I wouldn't enjoy the process.
It´s a tricky one as to whether the difference between Adults and Children is to do with ability or if it´s environmental. I myself tend towards the ability end, but environment does play a role. I´ve taught adults who have no language learning experience and it is much harder for them, they tend to fossilise a lot more quickly. I also do see real individual differences between people. Some people just learn everything you teach them wrong and even the best language teachers can´t get much out of them.
Finding comprehensible input in Japanese can be difficult even at the advanced level, unless you know kanji. Even advanced learners can have difficulty with books for the 5th grade level. Kanji isn’t the only reason though, there are many words in elementary school texts that even advanced learners might not have encountered.
Great, very interesting. It's not so much I disagree with this professor, but wouldn't this be in a larger learning strategy plan of some directed learning activities and evaluation? I'm thinking in particular of the I guess now-discredited or definitely underappreciated strategy of sentence substitution practicing. I say this bcs I asked a friend of mine who is a highly expert language working as simultaneous interpreter to point to a method or strategy he used. btw he had already organized the understandable input by working in a restaurant where only that language was spoken, for five years. AFTER and ALONGSIDE the understandable input, he recommended those drills or practice pieces where a sentence is repeated with one element e.g. the subject changed. He approached it like learning scales to be a necessary but also fun and fascinating part of learning an instrument, even though ultimately the goal is to communicate.
it's not adequately explained why you need images to convey CI. If you don't speak the same language as the learner, then yes, I can see you might need imagery, but if the language learner and teacher both speak the same language why bother with images?
I might try using AI just to translate these English graded readers into different languages. Sure you don’t get the cultural education but you can get that elsewhere. And having a familiar culture setting makes it easier and even feel more relevant.
Im at 7:48 minut mark & im impressed. Not so much that its all new to me.. some is, but it's well put and very usable. Great interview. Well thought out Qs.🎉
Interesting. Here is his chatgpt prompt answered.. its a good start. Let's start with some simple phrases and basic words. I'll introduce greetings, pronouns, and basic questions, which are essential for beginners. 1. Greetings Hola - Hello Buenos días - Good morning Buenas tardes - Good afternoon Buenas noches - Good evening / Good night 2. Basic Pronouns Yo - I Tú - You (informal) Él / Ella - He / She Nosotros / Nosotras - We (masculine / feminine) Ellos / Ellas - They (masculine / feminine) 3. Basic Questions ¿Cómo estás? - How are you? ¿Qué tal? - What's up? ¿Dónde está...? - Where is...? ¿Cuánto cuesta? - How much does it cost? 4. Useful Phrases Por favor - Please Gracias - Thank you De nada - You're welcome Lo siento - I'm sorry Start practicing these in short conversations. Let me know if you want more words or phrases!
Has Jeff McQuillan ever learned a language using the methods he recommends? He learnt Spanish at university. In his TH-cam videos, Jeff gives explicit instruction such as '"Healthcare h e a l t h c a r e refers to the medical services that people get for their illnesses and diseases"' And "Biracial b i r a c i a l refers to someone who is a member of two or more races" And "Polarized p o l a r i z e d means clearly divided when two groups have very different beliefs or goals" Is that kind of explicit instruction, where you quite literally spell out the meanings of words examples of excellent learning materials?
Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive? If I'm learning a language and someone gives me an explicit instruction in the language that I'm learning that is made comprehensible to me, isn't that comprehensible input?
@@TomRNZ You mean , it is best to learn a language by understanding what is being taught to you? I think you are on a winner there! Jeff learned Spanish with years at university. Has he ever learned a language using the methods he preaches?
@@stevencarr4002 Anyone who uses comprehensible input or teaches using comprehensible input thinks it's best to understand what is being said. The key word is "comprehensible". It's a teacher's job to make the input comprehensible for the level they are teaching. This may include using things like images or props, etc. The biggest problem I see is that people misunderstand what comprehensible input is. All it is is input that is comprehensible. It doesn't have to be just books, podcasts and movies. I couldn't tell you if Jeff has learnt a language with his methods. You'd have to ask him.
@@stevencarr4002 I teach English to Spanish speakers using comprehensible input, and yes, sometimes if the student isn't getting the meaning of a word, even after I have tried explaining it several times, if I feel it's important, I may translate it into Spanish. This is not ideal, and I try to avoid it if possible, but if it makes things more comprehensible for the student, so be it. And I can explain anything I want in English to them, whether it be why the ending of words have changed or why I consider The Beatles to be better than The Stones, it doesn't matter. If it's input and it's comprehensible, that's what matters. I'm also not against learning grammar (I know you never said I was, but some people have this misconception that people who use comprehensible input think that grammar is the devil), and I think grammar is important. What I'm against is focusing on grammar. I teach grammar in context, not by drawing conjugation tables and asking students to memorise them or by overanalysing grammar rules. I have a high intermediate level in Spanish, and I've never memorised a word or a conjugation table in my life. If I'm curious about a grammar concept, I might read about it or watch a video about it (always in Spanish), but I won't try and commit it to memory. It's for my own curiousity as a language geek rather than to memorise it as a "rule" I need to know. Grammar "rules" aren't really rules, but observations people have made about the language, which is why most grammar "rules" have a tonne of exceptions, especially in speech. How many native English speakers say things like, "Me and my friend went to the park" instead of "My friend and I went to the park"? Even though "me" is an object pronoun and according to the grammar "rules" it is incorrect, it's still used by a lot of, even well-educated, native English speakers. I'm not 100% sure where Jeff stands on everything related to language learning or teaching, and I'm sure I'll disagree with him on some things, but comprehensible input is extremely important to the point where I can't really understand why anyone disagrees with that. Perhaps an argument could be made that some methods might work faster (I think this may be true in the short term, but I'd say comprehensible input wins long term), and I can certainly appreciate that different people prefer different methods, but I really can't understand why some people seem to be so vehemently against comprehensible input, even if it isn't their preferred method.
Children are capable of reaching the highest level of proficiency in their second language, but it will never be at the level of their native language. It works in adolescence for a moderate level in a second language, but as an adult can try to imitate the sound of another language from memorized words in it. When an adult thinks he has learned a new language from scratch...🤣
Actually he do not want to say don't focus on learning. He wants to say that you should focus on process of acquisition. My process of acquisition English says same thing as well even ı have been studying only for 5-6 months. Sorry for my mistakes.
Adults don't learn language the same way as babies. You can't put an adult in a remote Chinese village and expect them to pick up Mandatin through osmosis
Reading reading reading. What I find happens is I go from mentally translating to just understanding the words as I do in English. This has to be done with an understanding of basic pronunciation so you are reading with the correct pronunciation going on inside your head. Then when practicing listening, the translating quagmire dissolves and pronunciation becomes the inherent function. As for the initial basic pronunciation, I found beginner books using syllable breakdown very useful. I will add. when beginning reading it is important to understand word order which is likely different from one's mother tongue. Be prepared for long periods of frustration, but I believe research has shown language learning comes in jumps. You literally go from not being able to understand what you read, to overnight suddenly "getting" it.
I think reading has a special place because it's such a versatile tool. ABR = Always Be Reading.
If you can read a bit at a low level then you can read more at a low level, then a lot.There's so much grammar and syntax that needs to be abosrbed and reading is really the only way to do this. For German - reading text at a low level of simplicity will give you the case system, irregular verbs, sentence structure, plurals and basic dialogue. This is a good way to learn such things and in fact it's the ony way to really learn these (in my view).
Reading is a very complex skill. At a good level of fluiduty it entails predictive ability (we read ahead without knowing we're doing it) fast recognition - many words are recognised 'at a glance' and are decoded automatically.
Listening has a different flow. Literally it just goes past and hopefully you make sense of it (you can of course repeat, use subtitles and pause, read a transcript). With reading you can slow down, re-read things etc. I think you take in a whole sentence in one moment.
There are people who can learn well without much reading which is great but I think most would benefit from reading if good material can be found.
ChatGPT can help in producing texts with low vocab and complexity. That is what we need especially early in learning. I don't hear much about this, but at some point there was interest in adapting novels so that obsolete or rare words could be replaced to make them more readable with little loss of the story.
Similarly, where there is a case system word order becomes much more felxible. But there is nothing to stop material for learners to follow English (or other L1) order so the learner is not overwhelmed.
I'm always impressed with how well you have developed your English Lois!
Thanks!
Yes Loïs you are right finding interesting and comprehensive input is a huge challenge. When I moved to the United States I wanted to become fluent so I stopped to watch or read anything in my native language to focus on my English acquisition.
It's a lot easier to find good stuff if you are learning English!
I also recommend you to pay attention to two channels
one is Input English and second is English input.
it will be really interesting to see their owners as a guest one day.
both of them create comprehensible input for English learners
and I'm sure they really will be happy to cooperate with other content creators
I haved used Ai tools, for example, ChatGPT, etc, to great introductory level stories for comprehensible input. I tell the AI to act as a language teacher, give it the paramaters of the story, and then edit the story to my level in the language. For a three paragraph input in English I can generate a 500 word story. I can generate story material that is interesting. And fairly accurate, I can cross-reference the result with other AI translation tools. Those additional tools can read the story to me or I can read it out loud. They are low data text files that I can review over and over.
Thanks for sharing
I also do that with new vocabulary I've garnered from other reading material. I'll take 10 to 15 words and give Chatgpt an assignment: Write a short, simple story for me using these words in any tense. In this way I'm learning and reinforcing vocab in context.
Basically: get some basics of the language (so sit down and study), and watch a lot of tv/movies/podcasts/music. Cuz the first part of comprehensible input is getting some basics in.
I find subtitles & parallel texts are great “extra linguistic cues” and that they don’t have to be purely visual or contextual to be effective
Please create this course! It would be amazing. I actually tried to persuade a friend of mine, who has an AI start-up to do this. But I couldn’t persuade him that there was a market for a pure input based language course.
What kind of content do you think people would like?
@@loistalagrand Thats really hard to say, its such a personal thing. But I think the simplest material would be commentary on visually interesting videos - one or two people discussing a popular tiktok, for example, explaining what is going on.
Are the timestamps accurate? I watched the section "Flashcards and intentional learning". Flashcards weren't mentioned, were they?
An interesting interview nevertheless.
I saw a post on reddit the other day saying FSI used mostly comprehensible input to teach Spanish. I gather from that post and even this interview that what FSI does is in flux.
This was a really good episode, thank you!
Great interview
Thanks
Really i liked this video. Thanks for this content.
Glad you liked it
Comprehensible Input is a religion at this point.
They never tell you how long the method typically takes to reach fluency.
My recommendation is to pair it with explicit grammar study. It's the best combination. There is absolutely no reason not to do it.
For real. To reach a high level of functional fluency in any language is going to take time no matter what one does. It’s sad that we live in times where we everyone is overtaken with the need to learn how to do everything as fast and efficiently as possible at all times. Usually at the expense of sacrificing what they’d actually like to do/how they’d prefer to learn.
sometimes a lot of people told you how long it takes
but in reality not all get it in this period.
it's depends on the people
so I think it's realistic
It don't give you any expectation about it
it depends on your efforts and time spending with the language and a lot of other factors that sometimes even hard to count
Jeff pairs it with explicit grammar study in his TH-cam videos where he says things like '"We more often hear this word as an adjective timid TI M I D if someone is timid someone is a little bit afraid someone is lacking confidence they don't have courage to do something"'
Here he explains the concept of 'adjective'.
You must have missed that section of the video, starting at roughly @42:00 in and going for several minutes. McQuillan says several things: (1) there are so many variables it's impossible to say anything about how long things take with any degree of precision, (2) rough rule of thumb would be that focussing comprehensible input for 500 hours might get a person to high-level beginner or low-level intermediate proficiency, and (3) in any case focussing on comprehensible input will be much faster than a method that focuses on traditional "learning" of grammar, vocabulary, etc.
I started learning Greek a year ago by basically just going for comprehensible input. Now I am reading Harry Potter and I am stunned how easy it is. I barely have problems understanding each part. I even came to visit Greece and was able to hold conversations - with many mistakes and a lot of help from the natives of course but nevertheless actual conversations that were not on superficial touristy topics.
So when it comes to my experience, it doesn't take much time at all. Actually I am stunned how far I've come in such a short time. Even without reaching a point where I wouldn't enjoy the process.
It´s a tricky one as to whether the difference between Adults and Children is to do with ability or if it´s environmental. I myself tend towards the ability end, but environment does play a role. I´ve taught adults who have no language learning experience and it is much harder for them, they tend to fossilise a lot more quickly.
I also do see real individual differences between people. Some people just learn everything you teach them wrong and even the best language teachers can´t get much out of them.
Finding comprehensible input in Japanese can be difficult even at the advanced level, unless you know kanji. Even advanced learners can have difficulty with books for the 5th grade level. Kanji isn’t the only reason though, there are many words in elementary school texts that even advanced learners might not have encountered.
Great, very interesting.
It's not so much I disagree with this professor, but wouldn't this be in a larger learning strategy plan of some directed learning activities and evaluation?
I'm thinking in particular of the I guess now-discredited or definitely underappreciated strategy of sentence substitution practicing.
I say this bcs I asked a friend of mine who is a highly expert language working as simultaneous interpreter to point to a method or strategy he used. btw he had already organized the understandable input by working in a restaurant where only that language was spoken, for five years. AFTER and ALONGSIDE the understandable input, he recommended those drills or practice pieces where a sentence is repeated with one element e.g. the subject changed.
He approached it like learning scales to be a necessary but also fun and fascinating part of learning an instrument, even though ultimately the goal is to communicate.
it's not adequately explained why you need images to convey CI. If you don't speak the same language as the learner, then yes, I can see you might need imagery, but if the language learner and teacher both speak the same language why bother with images?
This is just an example of a cue. However, I agree that I should have asked for more examples.
@@loistalagrand In TPRS 2.0, I believe the local language and target language are both displayed on the same blackboard, web page or whatever.
The more context you have around the world when hearing it the more solid comprehension is. As a CI learner of Spanish i can say this method works
I might try using AI just to translate these English graded readers into different languages. Sure you don’t get the cultural education but you can get that elsewhere. And having a familiar culture setting makes it easier and even feel more relevant.
Good idea
why is it the 64-thousand-dollar question
Im at 7:48 minut mark & im impressed. Not so much that its all new to me.. some is, but it's well put and very usable. Great interview. Well thought out Qs.🎉
Thanks
Interesting. Here is his chatgpt prompt answered.. its a good start.
Let's start with some simple phrases and basic words. I'll introduce greetings, pronouns, and basic questions, which are essential for beginners.
1. Greetings
Hola - Hello
Buenos días - Good morning
Buenas tardes - Good afternoon
Buenas noches - Good evening / Good night
2. Basic Pronouns
Yo - I
Tú - You (informal)
Él / Ella - He / She
Nosotros / Nosotras - We (masculine / feminine)
Ellos / Ellas - They (masculine / feminine)
3. Basic Questions
¿Cómo estás? - How are you?
¿Qué tal? - What's up?
¿Dónde está...? - Where is...?
¿Cuánto cuesta? - How much does it cost?
4. Useful Phrases
Por favor - Please
Gracias - Thank you
De nada - You're welcome
Lo siento - I'm sorry
Start practicing these in short conversations. Let me know if you want more words or phrases!
Has Jeff McQuillan ever learned a language using the methods he recommends? He learnt Spanish at university.
In his TH-cam videos, Jeff gives explicit instruction such as '"Healthcare h e a l t h c a r e refers to the medical services that people get for their illnesses and diseases"'
And "Biracial b i r a c i a l refers to someone who is a member of two or more races"
And "Polarized p o l a r i z e d means clearly divided when two groups have very different beliefs or goals"
Is that kind of explicit instruction, where you quite literally spell out the meanings of words examples of excellent learning materials?
Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive? If I'm learning a language and someone gives me an explicit instruction in the language that I'm learning that is made comprehensible to me, isn't that comprehensible input?
@@TomRNZ You mean , it is best to learn a language by understanding what is being taught to you? I think you are on a winner there!
Jeff learned Spanish with years at university. Has he ever learned a language using the methods he preaches?
@@stevencarr4002 Anyone who uses comprehensible input or teaches using comprehensible input thinks it's best to understand what is being said. The key word is "comprehensible". It's a teacher's job to make the input comprehensible for the level they are teaching. This may include using things like images or props, etc.
The biggest problem I see is that people misunderstand what comprehensible input is. All it is is input that is comprehensible. It doesn't have to be just books, podcasts and movies.
I couldn't tell you if Jeff has learnt a language with his methods. You'd have to ask him.
@@stevencarr4002 I teach English to Spanish speakers using comprehensible input, and yes, sometimes if the student isn't getting the meaning of a word, even after I have tried explaining it several times, if I feel it's important, I may translate it into Spanish. This is not ideal, and I try to avoid it if possible, but if it makes things more comprehensible for the student, so be it.
And I can explain anything I want in English to them, whether it be why the ending of words have changed or why I consider The Beatles to be better than The Stones, it doesn't matter. If it's input and it's comprehensible, that's what matters.
I'm also not against learning grammar (I know you never said I was, but some people have this misconception that people who use comprehensible input think that grammar is the devil), and I think grammar is important. What I'm against is focusing on grammar. I teach grammar in context, not by drawing conjugation tables and asking students to memorise them or by overanalysing grammar rules.
I have a high intermediate level in Spanish, and I've never memorised a word or a conjugation table in my life. If I'm curious about a grammar concept, I might read about it or watch a video about it (always in Spanish), but I won't try and commit it to memory. It's for my own curiousity as a language geek rather than to memorise it as a "rule" I need to know.
Grammar "rules" aren't really rules, but observations people have made about the language, which is why most grammar "rules" have a tonne of exceptions, especially in speech. How many native English speakers say things like, "Me and my friend went to the park" instead of "My friend and I went to the park"? Even though "me" is an object pronoun and according to the grammar "rules" it is incorrect, it's still used by a lot of, even well-educated, native English speakers.
I'm not 100% sure where Jeff stands on everything related to language learning or teaching, and I'm sure I'll disagree with him on some things, but comprehensible input is extremely important to the point where I can't really understand why anyone disagrees with that. Perhaps an argument could be made that some methods might work faster (I think this may be true in the short term, but I'd say comprehensible input wins long term), and I can certainly appreciate that different people prefer different methods, but I really can't understand why some people seem to be so vehemently against comprehensible input, even if it isn't their preferred method.
Children are capable of reaching the highest level of proficiency in their second language, but it will never be at the level of their native language.
It works in adolescence for a moderate level in a second language, but as an adult can try to imitate the sound of another language from memorized words in it.
When an adult thinks he has learned a new language from scratch...🤣
Why not focus on language lesrning?
Actually he do not want to say don't focus on learning. He wants to say that you should focus on process of acquisition. My process of acquisition English says same thing as well even ı have been studying only for 5-6 months. Sorry for my mistakes.
Ah, so it's just that the title of the video is clickbaiting because it says "Do not focus on language learning". Blacklisted either way.
His spanish is horrendous😂
Adults don't learn language the same way as babies. You can't put an adult in a remote Chinese village and expect them to pick up Mandatin through osmosis
Uh yeah that’s the best way. Go to a watering hole in that village and ask people “how do I say X” and joke and have fun.
I agree that adults can't learn new languages or improve their languages significantly.