Wow this video is doing pretty well. Thanks everyone! Sorry about the inconsistent Audio. I was so focused on making sure the audio wasn't too quiet that I didn't realize there were spikes.
There's something important you forgot to mention in regards of the acid tunnel photo choice. The peace sign could easily be interpreted as an *_Earthbound_* reference. Why is this important? Because only the player could know that, so following the idea every option represents someone, I think the peace sign would represent what the player would do. (And not posing represents Kris since we don't know much about them)
2:52 This isn't correct, actually; every single choice in the Gonermaker is kept in your save file and carried between chapters. Default choices are also selected for this sequence in the event that you start the game from Chapter 2.
If the Goner vessel returns, I REALLY want there to be unique dialogue for starting from chapter 2, if that remains a feature as of the full game's release.
Hopefully they're used, but solely so that Gaster or whoever calls you out for picking blood types C and D, or like to get into an argument about your preferred food type for 5 out of their 20 minutes of screentime. I feel like that's something Deltarune has really been missing.
@@petruciosxd1374 Gaster enters a 9 hour unskippable cutscene where he does a podcast with the Fun Gang interviewing them and the player on the lore of the game and their theories on it
I personally believe there is no 3rd entity controlling Kris, rather the soul itself is required for them to live and it is excruciating to go long periods without it. I think the odd movement Kris has is a mix of them not being able to control their movements for the past 16 or so hours while also having their literal soul removed. I think they simply cannot control their own body with it present but they are also physically weaker without it to the point of limping around. That does leave me wondering however, where is Kris' actual soul. We know the player is the red determination soul in the story because of us being able to move in the bird cage and the soul being used to pick dialogue options, but what happened to Kris' own soul?
imho the red soul is still his soul, we are controlling him from there so to act indipendently he has to remove it and be a deleuzian "body with no organs". the fact that he owns a carriage with a birdcage inside which has seen lots of use suggests that end of chapter one wasn't the first time he had to do this either but who was in control before we the player got into the picture is anybody's guess.
@@XDNighthawkXD The way I interpreted Kris's stilted movement is similar to this. They were literally moved like a puppet on strings. I think you'd need to re-adjust yourself after going through that.
The only reason I don't believe Kris already had issues with their soul before the game started is the stark contrast between player action and things people bring up as past memories of their own actions, like Kris playing piano well before we arrive and of course Noelle being a close childhood friend and noticing now that there is something very odd about Kris' recent actions especially if you say stuff out of character. I honestly believe Kris was a normal, mischievous but lonely teen before the game starts.
“What if I told you that you had already decided you were going to watch this video before you woke up this morning?” Me, who put this video on my Watch Later a week ago: “I can believe it.”
Wow, you did jump very quickly to "kris has a third entity controlling them". There just isn't enough evidence to claim that- they might be simply struggling to control their body after having it be controlled by us all the time. Or perhaps our mere existence playing the game makes it harder for them to move at all. Even when we're not pressing any keys, Kris remains stuck in place.
I feel like their movement is bizarre because they don’t have their soul inside of them. I mean there’s a reason they keep us (the soul) inside them at all times
I feel like the reason Ralsei is so overly accomodating is because he knows Kris holds the fate of the world in their hands. Ralsei's role in the prophecy is to support the heroes, he's only now starting to develop an identity beyond that, so he feels like he needs to keep Kris happy and support them no matter what.
"Delta is the fourth letter in the Greek alphabet but there only three delta fighter" At that moment I had a epiphany! There really is a forth! There's Kriss, Susie, Ralphi, and us the player. If we consider each of them there own warrior then what about use and our contributions.
18:31 Interestingly, in Ch2 near the end of the bathroom scene, when Kris walks up to the sink they actually start to walk normally for a short while. proceeds to wash their hands with seemingly normal control, then does a bit more funky stuff before putting the soul back in. If I were to hazard a guess, it's just Kris getting used to controlling their body again, or it's just them being a prankster. I prefer the former interpretation, but I don't quite think they'd be controlled long distance because of this.
Hmm now that I'm looking at this animation again I just realized something. There are frames missing in the animation. Kris teleports forward a little bit every step. (Not actually teleport) Almost as if they are "falling" forward rather than walking. As for the animation your talking about I think that Kris might be shaking the water off their hands. You can see some light blue pixels around there hands for a split second. I just can't imagine the force exerted to do that in one shake. I might be wrong though.
@@XDNighthawkXD My emphasis was more or less on them walking normally before the sink, and even then I think them drying their hands in one go is more or less just how Toby chose to do it since Kris awkwardly shaking their hands off for a few seconds would have perhaps messed with the pacing. It's probably not trying to convey an its an outside force that can dry Kris's hands in one go, when we don't have any other examples of Kris drying their hands to compare to. I think we're diving waaay too deep into these tiny details, but if we must, I still think my point stands.
@@XDNighthawkXD Also, fyi, Jevil and Spamton can both be found back in the Closet, if you've beaten them in another save file, but not the current one, their item (determined by your current spare ratio i think) will appear at the base of the waterfall to the left of the entrance to Castle town, after beating their respective chapter, each's shadow crystal will also appear if I remember correctly.
Wow, the Greek mythology take is super interesting, new, and fits almost all of the evidence! Awesome job! One thing - I don’t think the secret bosses can exist in the light world. Given the layout of the unused classroom, Jevil is probably just a card underneath the cabinet. Also, Spamton talks about wanting to see “past the dark”, which implies that he can’t do that already. Doesn’t affect the theory that much, but just wanted to put it out there
To add on to that, I can't remember exactly but one of the computers is different when interacted with in the light world dependent on whether Spamton was beaten or not. Also if you compare the layout of the light world to the dark worlds, both secret bosses would be underneath the cupboards as they are both in the basements of the castles which means we wouldn't be able to see their light world counterparts (other than snowgrave but we don't know what actually happened to Spamton other than the damage numbers and sound effect) There is also dialogue which tells us that the body Spamton uses to become Spamton Neo was designed by a lightner (probably Mettaton) so the body is an inanimate object in the light world too.
I've been thinking about the Greek angle for a long time. I'm actually surprise more people haven't noticed the similarities. When I heard of Plato's interpretation of the soul I just about screamed.
@@Luke-st8bc One of the computers mentions someone tried to check their emails but couldn't since the internet was out, but if Spamton NEO is defeated, the computer bluescreens. Edit: although, the Devilsknife and Spamton items are said to be the Darkners themselves (and the Jevilstail apparently even makes noise...?), so they kinda are brought with us in those cases.
i find it interesting how you consider the peace sign option to be kris' favourite, as its (most likely) a reference to earthbound and the fuzzy pickles picture ness takes. utdr is obviously inspired by earthbound/mother, so having that reference be their favourite sort of signals going back to their roots and perhaps signalling at who kris really is? (im not sure how to explain it fully, but hopefully it makes sense)
@@zixvirzjghamn737 I would argue Rude Gesture due to Kris’s affinity with Susie, and their mischievous nature overall (Scaring Noelle a bunch, eating an entire pie alone, etc.)
23:03 To add on to this topic, a good point I've heard someone make that really put how Kris may feel about Ralsei into perspective for me is this. Imagine one day you meet a random person, but without any explanation they look exactly like someone you know. They have their own name, their own personality, and they seem like a nice person, but they have the face of someone you know, and you don't know why. It would be an understatement to say you would probably feel uneasy.
Ik this is just a hypothetical but it actually happened to me once! I met this girl that looked exactly like an old friend of mine and had an almost identical name to her, it was extremely weird and unnerving lmfao
@@pringlecontainer2528 i met someone once who had the exact same mannerisms and voice tics as my ex lol, im sure he's a really nice person but i feel weird everytime i talk to him lmaooo
I would say for that last point, instead of actually escaping, jevil and Spamton could see the light world through the shadow crystals they were holding.
this essay made me realize deltarune, just like real life, has only one ending. But it doesn’t have one route, just like real life! Such a cool deconstruction of players expectations of “multiple endings” in video games. Toby Fox really has a knack for making video games feel “alive” , much like how it’s hinted that gaster experiments with the game and its files the same way a scientist would experiments with organisms and specimen.
Delta is also used as shorthand in math/etc. for “change in” like as you solve for how X changes across a line, you can call that/write that as delta X. You solve for the slope of a line with delta Y/delta X. This aligns with the game’s question of whether our choices matter or *change* things. The series being called Deltarune also implies a change in magic, a change in a spell, or a change in meaning/words, depending on how you interpret “rune.” Rune is also the name for a letter in an ancient Germanic alphabet, and, if we do take delta as referring to 4 or fourth, the fourth rune in several of the first runic alphabets means god. Or if we take both meanings of delta together, it would be suggesting a “change in gods” like the conflict for control of Kris and the world of the game.
I like the idea of asking "do you spare enemies to Get The Ending or bc you don't want to hurt anyone" but there is also the third option: the spare/sleep mechanic is more fun to engage with than the combat mechanics. People who don't care about video game morality still spare most enemies because the dialogue is funny and more enjoyable than just Punch Guy
or because its faster(also you technically fall into the category of not wanting to hurt anyone if not for the speed because I regurgitate spookydood opinion)
There’s also another reason as well. Generally speaking playing nice is easier. Sure you could go out of your way to do the snow grave route but that’s a hassle and it gets you the harder fight at the end. The same holds true for real life it’s generally easier to just play along and be nice most the time. There are exceptions though. Some people are absolutely horrid people and you need to be able to retaliate if needed to protect that which you care about. Even empathetically challenged individuals will usually maintain a level of cooperation if they care about self preservation but they will absolutely destroy any threats to themselves or what they care for. Most the time it’s just easier to not be actively seeking conflict. Unfortunately even if you don’t seek conflict it still comes. I’d imagine most people act in this sort of fashion. I’d imagine the average person wouldn’t jump on a grenade to save a friend. But they wouldn’t go out of their way to throw grenades at strangers either. Aka the most common dnd alignment is some form of neutral on the morality scale ( most likely lawful neutral)
@@ultimaterecoil1136 ME I'M THE EMPATHETICALLY CHALLENGED PERSON I would totally go for the genocide and snowgrave routes but I'm also just bad at games and honestly that's my morality irl, I don't care if people suffer but like, isn't it just easier to be kind?
@@theflyingspaget thankfully it is easier to be kind. People actively help those kind to them even if only in small ways and actively seeking conflict can make you enemies that actively seek your harm. Society never would have risen up in the first place if it wasn’t beneficial to work together as opposed to taking from others exclusively
The thing I absolutely love about Deltarune is the way the black screen is used. Since we the player control Kris whenever it’s a black screen our face reflects off of the screen implying that we are there. For example when Kris Susie Ralsei and the Boombox people are dancing in a circle we are looking through the middle as if we are joining in. Is as if they know we are there when they don’t. Really creepy stuff
I thought Kris was moving that way because they're without their soul. We never see Kris with the soul moving aside from them jumping out of bed or on the couch, and it could just be that Kris is moving tiredly, only able to overpower the soul's control when they're asleep. Also I don't really ever understand what people are talking about with free will. You make it sound more like people are capable of snap-judgements that have no origin, but people always have reasonings, either reactionary or involuntary. Just because I can only choose one thing doesn't make it less of a choice, same goes for "choosing to not play," that's not somehow beating the system, that's simply having a shorter run.
If that point about the soul is interesting, but Kris moves normally once they put their soul back in in ch 2, then they get weird again once everyone goes to sleep.
I had to think about this for awhile and then rewatch this part of the video lol, but I find the part about Susie's choice to attack darkners vs your choice to warn them a little flawed, only because warning the darkners about her doesn't actually bar her from making the choice. When lancer sends the trio to jail, he is intending to incapacitate them so they're totally unable to make the choice to attack the king, but warning the darkners just lets them know what situation they're in, it doesn't prevent Susie from attacking them. The choice is still up to the player and one might still see not warning the darkners are more respectful of or friendly to Susie, but imo doing so definitely isn't overriding or taking away her choice at all.
Susie’s choice is unique inside the game. Until now there is not way to control or change what she chooses. The warn enemies thing is to avoid hurting them.
@@MoRPho151 yeah, that's what I'm saying. In the video it's said as if you warning the enemies somehow inhibits her right to choose, which it doesn't really.
The fact that the cage Kris throws the soul into is sitting within a toy wagon is really compelling now that you mention the chariot rider and the two horses.
at 26:00 or so, them turning to the camera for the peace sign is an earhtbound reference, but if we were to think of it diagetically i agree with your points
I like to believe that, like in most games, random assets are used waaaaay under the map. assets waiting to be called. I think this is where the person the code is. perhaps the bunker is the way to get there?
12:02 But in the light world you also have the choice of what to say to Onionsan, and if you choose to be mean Onionsan won't talk to you ever again, which persists even between chapters. There's also a lot of other choices from chapter 1 that have an effect on chapter 2, mostly just decided to talk to different NPCs, for example talking to Noelle in chapter 1 causes her to give Susie the chalk in chapter 2. Maybe the reason that our choices in the light world aren't as obvious as those made in the dark world is because we haven't spent nearly as much time in the light world yet? Plus, if that was really what Toby was trying to say, why are there so many choices in the dark world that don't do anything? Like, when we are asked to choose who to go with into the city and Susie goes with Ralsei no matter what?
the only choice that matters in the light world so far is with Noelle. you can tell her that Susie likes to eat calk, and she will give Susie a box of chalk as a gift. and it's something you have to go out of your way for, going to the hospital, talking to Rudy, then selecting the right dialogue options with Noelle. I think it was intentional that the only times your choices REALLY matter is with Noelle, someone infamous for breaking games. ya know, I might just make a theory out of this...
I swear to god, I've started watching this video at least twice now. I don't remember stopping it, and I don't remember finishing it. This video creates a memory gap every time. What is happening
39:15 I disagree with this because Kris slashed the tires in chapter 2. What primal desire would make them want to do something as specific as that? We also see them turning on the TV and opening the door before they make a new fountain, so I believe what Kris is doing is very methodical when they tear out their SOUL.
As a non-native english speaker, the first time i played deltarune and heard of Titans my first thought was the greek mythology, and i wondered if it's a reference or if this game is gonna have more of a mythos vibes. Later I've learnt it's just a word nowadays fiction likes to use for gigantic creatures, and doesn't have to relate to mythology at all, so I didn't look further into it. Funny how everything wrapped around and now it seems it actually may be related to greek mythology after all.
Haven't finished the video but something i just realised is that The gonermaker sequence tells us that none of our decisions matter IN THIS WORLD (lightworld) hence why we CAN make decisions in the dark world, and choose who we want to be (either pacifist or weird route)
Two counterpoints: 1. The peace sign photo is mostly meant to be an Earthbound reference. In Earthbound, once in a while, you can take a photo of your characters showing their peace signs towards the screen. 2. Yes, Spamton does have a physical form. That being the printed spam emails in the bottom right corner of the computer lab. Jevil is also a joker card, and judging by his imprisoned position in Card Castle, in the Unused Classroom he is probably hidden in a hard-to-reach place too. But it's quite obvious that he is simply a joker card, not anything more complicated.
In plato's allegory of the cave the pain he feels when he leaves the cave is supposed to be a metaphor for the way that new information requires you to break down and re-examine your existing belief systems. In some versions of the story (I believe even the original version of the story), some people believe the returning prisoner well enough to follow him out of the cave but after experiencing the pain for themselves retreat back into the cave and redouble their original beliefs that there isn't anything outside the cave, the pain is their justification for being hostile towards the returning prisoner's attempts to convince them to leave. A rudimentary understanding of philosophy is basically a prerequisite for being an artist in any medium. mostly because it is a subject that is difficult to avoid if you are engaging with enough introspection to make decent art. "thinking about thinking" no way that would ever come up when you're busy thinking about yourself and what you are doing.
even if it does nothing in the end I am being the kinds of person I can be because I don't want to hurt anyone I will be a pacifist like in Undertale even if in the end it doesn't change a thing I will be true to myself I don't want to hurt anyone I want to make friends I even hope that some point me and Kris can become friends or at least reach a understanding that I was thrown into the situation on controlling them by that mystery's voice just as much as they where
Determinism does not equal you do not matter. You act because of determinism, therefore you are part of determinism. a man who is fated to put in 1 effort is just as responsible for their choices as a man who put in 100%. 1 times 1 = 1, 1 times 100 = 100. 100+1 = 101 The man who put in 1 effort was fated to chose 1, but they still chose that path, the man who put in 100 effort still chose. We are told by society that our responsibilities are to be a part of the future, to attempt success. Choosing to attempt at all is critical in success. Am I determining your future, as others have done for me for my present? Was I a part of deciding to be the way I am? Be a part of the equation of the universe, despite determinism and free will.
At the end of chapter 2, in the library's computer room, if you look inside the trash can, you'll find a bunch of spam e-mails that were supposedly "accidentally printed" and thrown in there. This could very likely be Spamton's real world equivalent, and possibly also the way he finally made it out of his fake cave reality and into the real one.
There's also another choice that's fairly interesting. When Susie teams up with Lancer to fight Kris, she gives you the "option" of either fighting, or not fighting. If you don't move the cursor, the option "Let's Not" is highlighted yellow for a split second before Susie interrupts.
I find the snowgrave fun, not because it's a sadistic thing to do, but because it's such a HUGE change of pace from the "happy go lucky" route from the normal game It's like watching a horror movie, I don't think what the characters do is justified or right, but I find it entertaining to be horrified by their actions I wanna see how much Toby can push this narrative, I wanna be like "oh god why is this happening"! haha
"If you believe in hard determinism you can not also believe that you are responsible for your own actions." Sure you can. Frankfurt's Principle of Alternative Possibilities isn't universally accepted, and you can very well construct models of moral agency or responsibility without it or free will. Choice can be understood as a class computational processes, it doesn't have to be dependent on breaking causal determinism or that process having been able to reach a different outcome under the same starting parameters.
The Duck keeps existing, why shouldn't the entity we created during character creation exist? They're our creation and they will have to live with whatever we gave them now that they exist in some form. Knowing the creator of the game this character won't just go away after they came into being and will have a big impact on the story later.
"What if I told you that you already decided whether or not you were going to click on this video before you even woke up this morning?" Joke's on you, I added it to my queue yesterday.
Not gonna lie if the "weird route" is just the player corrupting a new npc every chapter, I'll be really disappointed. Not just because it'd be a lazy rehash but because it would take away from what made the Snowgrave route work so well. It's uniqueness in its execution.
22:30 Also nello literally hasn't met him when she can get the tie, and had a lower HP gain then kris for it, implying he likes him more then a total stranger
I thought you were going to say this--- Kris = the Rationale, Ralsei = the spirit, and Susie = the Appetite Susie and Ralsei act as influences on Kris and who Kris wishes they could be. Ralsei being the pink horns and representing the way Kris wishes they could look like and act (implying he wishes he was a lot like Asriel), and Susie acting out on her desires and interests (unable to be controlled by the player) is what Kris wants to be like. You sort of touch on this when you pointed out that some of the choices the player is given reflect what each of our party members (Ralsei and Susie) would pick.
I'm absolutely in the camp that the soul, the player, however you wanna frame it are as much trapped in the context of the game's rules as Kris is. The most agency we have is to choose not to play the game and that's not really a choice.
As the (second?) voice said: "In **THIS** world you have no choice" Also, the letter delta is used to signify change. As to it being the fourth letter and there being 3 delta warriors, consider that the capital letter delta is a triangle.
I think the delta is for the symbol, not the number. It’s a triangle, the monster emblem has triangle and we are a party of three at the time, making a triangle.
Thank you TBH I use the term Mega theory as a blanket to hide how scatterbrained this video is. It's just a bunch of theories I had; but didn't feel like making separate videos for. MEGA THEORY just sounds better :)
@@XDNighthawkXD In case you're wondering i was using it as a blanket term for the whole video. Honestly, i should've been more specific. the main thing i was unsure of was the one with Kris before the cave theory. It made sense and was pretty interesting but it felt sliiiiiiiiiiiightly too much of a stretch. i kinda decided to not think of anything Kris related awhile back, mainly because i don't want muddle my opinion of deltarune with expectations of what Kris' story is. i liked the other stuff mostly.
Good video overall. Personally, I really dislike the idea of Kris tearing out their own soul to combat the player. Not only is there evidence to suggest that Kris has been doing this since before the player began interacting with the world (the birdcage/wagon setup, the stain on the carpet, Kris's bathroom habits), but it's also just very out of character. Why would they endanger two people they care deeply about after a Snowgrave route? (Toriel and Susie) Also, everyone just seems to handwave how Kris is even doing this in the first place. It's not normal for one to be able to reach inside of themselves and rip out their soul. It's not normal for someone to manifest a knife out of thin air. Also, if Kris is controlling themselves during these segments, why do they shamble around so awkwardly even before removing their own soul? They don't shamble when moving on their own during the game proper like when Kris defends Susie. Everything seems to point to some alternate entity controlling Kris during these moments. I just hate the "Kris is fighting back against the player" idea because the message of "HOW DARE YOU CONTROL A CHARACTER AND PLAY A VIDEO GAME" just seems really shallow and not really saying much of anything. However, the idea of Kris's soul splitting and them being drive purely by appetite is really interesting and fitting.
I think this is a take a lot of people shared around chapter 1's release, but was eventually phased out of popular opinion due to Chapter 2's events and more in-depth dives into the game's theming. Its not a story of "HOW DARE YOU PLAY THE GAME," its a story of "What if the character you played as knew you existed and had their own feelings about that?" Kris' feelings just so happen to be negative, as most peoples' would be if they were possessed and controlled by some otherworldly entity. As for the knife part, they clearly just had it in their pocket/on their person somehow, inventory logic or maybe even a sheath. Toriel acknowledges it in Ch.2 as "Kris' knife", so why wouldn't they be expected to carry around their own personal possession, possibly for self defense, late-night pie eating, slashing their mom's car tires, or whatever else Kris does in their daily routine. And on the note of tearing their soul out... This is just my theory, entirely baseless and only bits and pieces of evidence exist in the game, but I believe Kris gains a sense of "control" specifically during cutscenes. Think about it; at what point in a game is the Player weakest? During a scripted cutscene, and especially at the END of the game (or chapter in this case) where their input, their choices, don't matter. This is somewhat backed by when we see Kris moving on their own in the Dark Worlds. They never initiate it, its always during a pre-existing cutscene (Defending Susie during King's post-fight cutscene, doing a pose when reuniting with their friends or approaching the arcade machine the second time before Queen is interrupted by Burghley). Finally, as for why Kris seems like they were already possessed? I have NO clue! I don't think Kris is possessed by another entity, their actions, while extreme, feel reasonable for their situation and line up with their own interests. They clearly want to explain to Undyne, the POLICE CHIEF of all people, about dark worlds, and when that doesn't work they get their mother (another trusted figure) to call the police to their home, and then open a dark world with Susie and Toriel inside, two of their most trusted allies besides Noelle and _maaaaybe_ Ralsei. And if they are the Knight and its not a fakeout like chapter 1? All the more reason that they're acting of their own will. I feel like Kris has had some history with dark worlds, or at least darker forces akin to Gaster, and Catti even says she helped Kris with some occult stuff a long while ago, possibly around when Dess disappeared and/or the event that happened at the Bunker, which would have prompted Kris to take action into researching the dark arts and "finding her" as the game insists we do.
@@MeloniestNeon I should point out that the knife Toriel talks about looks different and Kris never gets it back, yet they still have one at the end of the chapter. That said, at the start of the Light World segment, Kris collects a shitton of stuff from the computer lab for no inventory space and we can't interact with any of it, either, so the knife thing doesn't seem all that out of the ordinary. Since we know the Dark World inventory is like, magic pockets, I wonder if the implication is that all the inventory items are like, horribly shoved into Kris's pockets...?
@@petruciosxd1374 PLEASE let it be the latter, I love the idea that Kris' pants pockets are just STUFFED with an entire laptop, PC tower and various calculators and wires as they walk back to the school As for the knife thing, I think that's just a stylistic difference in how it was shown, both are clearly Kris' knives, so it would be easy to explain away with them having a collection, or the spritework being a bit different between chapters.
I think a big part of why people dislike these theories is that they expect "the player" to actually be an in universe character, which would feel awkward. Undertales story was also meant to examine the relationship between the player and the game, even including the literal save and load mechanic into the story. Yet it was done in a way where we were never directly called out, yet still felt responsible for our actions. Canonically everything we did was done by frisk and maybe chara. I strongly believe that will be the same in deltarune. There will never be a moment where Kris faces the camera and goes "grrr, I hate you 'player', you are controlling me" and then rips their soul out. Instead we will be represented by some sort of stand in entity. What that entity will be is anyones guess, but I personally think it will be a demon. Lore on demons in Undertale is very thin, but chara calls themselfes one and they are referenced in thr code a bit, so its safe to say they do exist in universe. And we know from chara that they have the ability to take over someones soul and control them, so its the most likely option imo. Although I dont think that we are literally playing as deltarune chara, but who knows at this point.
@@tobiasbayer4866 werent we directly called out in undertale though, when flowey says "let frisk be happy. let frisk live their life"? i mean hell even before that he says "you know who im talking about, dont you? thats right. im talking about YOU." it seems to make it pretty clear that we are separate from our player characters, (frisk and kris) which i can only assume means that we are, by default, our own type of character within the universe. or at least something the game and certain characters are aware of. that much is made clear in both games, even though we dont know the details of how it all works.
I tried to talk about this video to my friends, and this was the resulting ramble: " ....instead of addressing all that I'd just like to say that between determinism and free will... ...I'm honestly not sure I give a shit. Decisions are unreasonably hard. I don't care if they're genuinely my own or not, I just want others to make them. I suppose that would push me more towards determinism in an idealistic sense. Any time my brain does not naturally supply an opinion, I desperately look to others to fill that gap. I am often forced by the reality I live in to act like I have more opinion than I actually do, and it's exhausting. I don't often care where the opinions I do have come from. I am satisfied with them. And when I am not satisfied with them, I look to change them. I suppose that is my free will. But again, my issue isn't feeling nihilistically like those opinions aren't my own, 'oh noo'. I hate the times I don't have an opinion with significantly more ferocity than anything relating to the debate of free will. I am significantly more interested in research into the nature of indecision, decision fatigue, and analysis paralysis, than I am the issue of free will vs determinism. ...So much so that my answer is resounding indifference. ...I find that result interesting."
I think it is very interesting to let berdly have his hand blown up in the Cyber world. It not genocide or pacifist its the cost of victory. I think a story where ee walk away with a few scars is the most interesting.
Don't call people mentally ill for liking dark stuff. Just because someone likes the snow grave route doesn't mean they're any less or more than you. Is that how you view people that love horror or true crime. Kinda shitty especially since you didn't make it a joke you just said it.
Let's assume for a moment that all of reality is deterministic. Given the exact same moment in time, the same circumstances, one person would reach the same conclusion and make the same decision every time. However, subjectively, choice still exists for that individual. The things they are considering, their potential internal monolog, their mood, their preferences, the things they've felt that day are part of how they decide what they do. One being informed that "Free will doesn't exist" and changing their path of decision making to have far less effort, less consideration, and to assume that "it doesn't matter, it's going to be the same anyway" is a misunderstanding of what it means to not have free will, because subjectively that person has now assumed that they would get the same outcome from putting in less effort and thought as they would from having put in more effort and thought. Which is not the case, since those would be very different states of existence. It takes a bit of thought to understand that point though. I feel like it's something that's easier to grasp for people who have experience with programming or robotics. But my point is that Deltarune's "Your choices don't matter (because this story concludes the same way)" and "Free will isn't real (because the universe is deterministic, your beliefs and thoughts are the byproduct of every moment preceeding)", and "Choice doesn't matter (everything will play out the same no matter what you believe)" are deceptively similar sounding, but imply very different things.
16:13 The problem with this reasoning this the point is that this necessitates by cause of effect that there is an external variable that influences events which are uncontrollable, Inconsistent, and Is immeasurable by people which is effectively randomness Which I'd argue a person cannot reasonably be placed responsible for
20:18 this has nothing to do with the Weird route, it's just her dialogue for not having recruits. You can still recruit some denizens of the cyber world after the point of no return and her dialogue will change accordingly
Before the video even properly starts, yes, I know I had decided to watch this video even before I knew it existed. That's because we are all built and developed by the events around us, as well as internal factors such as emotions and processing, so all the prior events that have happened to me and how they developed me as a person/character influence my future actions. Just how my actions might influence someone else out there and further develop them. None of us exist in a vacuum and there's no such thing as predetermined personality or behaviour (genetically, but it can be fabricated through specific events. I hope I got the point right. Okay, now let's watch
"what if I told you that you already decided to watch this video before you woke up this morning" no dip Sherlock, that's what the "Add to watch later" button is there for
Jokes on you i clicked on this video by accident (but i will be back to watch it when its not bedtime. The fact I'm not gonna use it as background noise to fall asleep to is high praise)
Wow this video is doing pretty well. Thanks everyone! Sorry about the inconsistent Audio. I was so focused on making sure the audio wasn't too quiet that I didn't realize there were spikes.
its okay dont worry we love you
I wonder what you use to edit in that case. Most programs show you how loud or quiet your audio is at all times.
There's something important you forgot to mention in regards of the acid tunnel photo choice. The peace sign could easily be interpreted as an *_Earthbound_* reference. Why is this important? Because only the player could know that, so following the idea every option represents someone, I think the peace sign would represent what the player would do. (And not posing represents Kris since we don't know much about them)
25:21 I'm pretty sure that's an Earthbound reference, since Ness always faces the camera and does a peace sign when taking a photo
I think so too. It’s a nice reading into it, but it’s almost 100% just a reference.
There's always a possibility of it being both.
@@itap8880yeah lol toby's done that before, making seeming references or jokes actually quite significant
@@JaxontheOkay "But nobody came" is probably the shining example
FUZZY PICKLES!
2:52 This isn't correct, actually; every single choice in the Gonermaker is kept in your save file and carried between chapters. Default choices are also selected for this sequence in the event that you start the game from Chapter 2.
If the Goner vessel returns, I REALLY want there to be unique dialogue for starting from chapter 2, if that remains a feature as of the full game's release.
Hopefully they're used, but solely so that Gaster or whoever calls you out for picking blood types C and D, or like to get into an argument about your preferred food type for 5 out of their 20 minutes of screentime. I feel like that's something Deltarune has really been missing.
@@petruciosxd1374 Gaster enters a 9 hour unskippable cutscene where he does a podcast with the Fun Gang interviewing them and the player on the lore of the game and their theories on it
@@petruciosxd1374 Blood types C and D? I think those are just monster blood types in Deltarune's world.
@@MeloniestNeon this comment has me WEAK
I personally believe there is no 3rd entity controlling Kris, rather the soul itself is required for them to live and it is excruciating to go long periods without it. I think the odd movement Kris has is a mix of them not being able to control their movements for the past 16 or so hours while also having their literal soul removed. I think they simply cannot control their own body with it present but they are also physically weaker without it to the point of limping around.
That does leave me wondering however, where is Kris' actual soul. We know the player is the red determination soul in the story because of us being able to move in the bird cage and the soul being used to pick dialogue options, but what happened to Kris' own soul?
This makes me wonder, what if all of Kris limbs are asleep and that's why they move the way they do. just a thought.
Ouch! I just imagined how it'd feel to have your entire body be numb and static like that, that in itself sounds excruciating.
imho the red soul is still his soul, we are controlling him from there so to act indipendently he has to remove it and be a deleuzian "body with no organs". the fact that he owns a carriage with a birdcage inside which has seen lots of use suggests that end of chapter one wasn't the first time he had to do this either but who was in control before we the player got into the picture is anybody's guess.
@@XDNighthawkXD The way I interpreted Kris's stilted movement is similar to this. They were literally moved like a puppet on strings. I think you'd need to re-adjust yourself after going through that.
The only reason I don't believe Kris already had issues with their soul before the game started is the stark contrast between player action and things people bring up as past memories of their own actions, like Kris playing piano well before we arrive and of course Noelle being a close childhood friend and noticing now that there is something very odd about Kris' recent actions especially if you say stuff out of character. I honestly believe Kris was a normal, mischievous but lonely teen before the game starts.
“What if I told you that you had already decided you were going to watch this video before you woke up this morning?”
Me, who put this video on my Watch Later a week ago: “I can believe it.”
same lol
Wow, you did jump very quickly to "kris has a third entity controlling them". There just isn't enough evidence to claim that- they might be simply struggling to control their body after having it be controlled by us all the time. Or perhaps our mere existence playing the game makes it harder for them to move at all. Even when we're not pressing any keys, Kris remains stuck in place.
I feel like their movement is bizarre because they don’t have their soul inside of them. I mean there’s a reason they keep us (the soul) inside them at all times
Don't make me have a exitential crisis. I just got home.
OOOOOh NO I AGREE
I just got to work and won't be home for 10 hours, so by your logic I'm watching this at the perfect time 😁
“Who the fuck starts a conversation like that? I just sat down!”
~Peter Griffin
@@rainbow_vaderno way this mf is stacking his crisis
@@kirbyfan6949 i never thought I'd agree with a fanily guy quote
I feel like the reason Ralsei is so overly accomodating is because he knows Kris holds the fate of the world in their hands.
Ralsei's role in the prophecy is to support the heroes, he's only now starting to develop an identity beyond that, so he feels like he needs to keep Kris happy and support them no matter what.
"Delta is the fourth letter in the Greek alphabet but there only three delta fighter"
At that moment I had a epiphany! There really is a forth! There's Kriss, Susie, Ralphi, and us the player. If we consider each of them there own warrior then what about use and our contributions.
ah yes, ralphi
Good idea! Yeah the player could be the fourth.
My favorite character, Ralphi
Delta's symbol is a triangle by the way
What about The Angel? Isn't it a part of that symbol as well? That might be our fourth character.
god i LOVE overly long and hyper-specufic analyses of deltarune! its like crack i swear.
The longer we wait for more chapters, the more specific we will get
@troublemonkey1_626 if we wait any longer there's gonna be a 12 part series analysing every dead pixel
Hyper-specufic analyses are the best
18:31 Interestingly, in Ch2 near the end of the bathroom scene, when Kris walks up to the sink they actually start to walk normally for a short while. proceeds to wash their hands with seemingly normal control, then does a bit more funky stuff before putting the soul back in. If I were to hazard a guess, it's just Kris getting used to controlling their body again, or it's just them being a prankster. I prefer the former interpretation, but I don't quite think they'd be controlled long distance because of this.
Hmm now that I'm looking at this animation again I just realized something. There are frames missing in the animation. Kris teleports forward a little bit every step. (Not actually teleport) Almost as if they are "falling" forward rather than walking.
As for the animation your talking about I think that Kris might be shaking the water off their hands. You can see some light blue pixels around there hands for a split second. I just can't imagine the force exerted to do that in one shake. I might be wrong though.
@@XDNighthawkXD My emphasis was more or less on them walking normally before the sink, and even then I think them drying their hands in one go is more or less just how Toby chose to do it since Kris awkwardly shaking their hands off for a few seconds would have perhaps messed with the pacing. It's probably not trying to convey an its an outside force that can dry Kris's hands in one go, when we don't have any other examples of Kris drying their hands to compare to.
I think we're diving waaay too deep into these tiny details, but if we must, I still think my point stands.
OR they're moving weirdly because they literally don't have a soul
@@XDNighthawkXD Actually, how many frames are missing? Could it be like... a half of them?
@@XDNighthawkXD Also, fyi, Jevil and Spamton can both be found back in the Closet, if you've beaten them in another save file, but not the current one, their item (determined by your current spare ratio i think) will appear at the base of the waterfall to the left of the entrance to Castle town, after beating their respective chapter, each's shadow crystal will also appear if I remember correctly.
Wow, the Greek mythology take is super interesting, new, and fits almost all of the evidence! Awesome job!
One thing - I don’t think the secret bosses can exist in the light world. Given the layout of the unused classroom, Jevil is probably just a card underneath the cabinet. Also, Spamton talks about wanting to see “past the dark”, which implies that he can’t do that already. Doesn’t affect the theory that much, but just wanted to put it out there
To add on to that, I can't remember exactly but one of the computers is different when interacted with in the light world dependent on whether Spamton was beaten or not.
Also if you compare the layout of the light world to the dark worlds, both secret bosses would be underneath the cupboards as they are both in the basements of the castles which means we wouldn't be able to see their light world counterparts (other than snowgrave but we don't know what actually happened to Spamton other than the damage numbers and sound effect)
There is also dialogue which tells us that the body Spamton uses to become Spamton Neo was designed by a lightner (probably Mettaton) so the body is an inanimate object in the light world too.
I've been thinking about the Greek angle for a long time. I'm actually surprise more people haven't noticed the similarities. When I heard of Plato's interpretation of the soul I just about screamed.
@@Luke-st8bc One of the computers mentions someone tried to check their emails but couldn't since the internet was out, but if Spamton NEO is defeated, the computer bluescreens.
Edit: although, the Devilsknife and Spamton items are said to be the Darkners themselves (and the Jevilstail apparently even makes noise...?), so they kinda are brought with us in those cases.
bro i will fucking SCREAM if jevil deltarune shows up in the God Damn light world
2:53 Actually, it been proven that it DOES change game files and it saves this information for future.
nuh uh
true
Google translated this to "Well uh".
fym "nuh uh"
yuh huh
i find it interesting how you consider the peace sign option to be kris' favourite, as its (most likely) a reference to earthbound and the fuzzy pickles picture ness takes. utdr is obviously inspired by earthbound/mother, so having that reference be their favourite sort of signals going back to their roots and perhaps signalling at who kris really is? (im not sure how to explain it fully, but hopefully it makes sense)
I think that the "..." option is more like what kris would do because it's more in line with their behavior before the soul.
@@zixvirzjghamn737
I would argue Rude Gesture due to Kris’s affinity with Susie, and their mischievous nature overall (Scaring Noelle a bunch, eating an entire pie alone, etc.)
So what you’re saying is… Kris is ness
@@FlyingSchweenies No, that’s Sans. Kris is Claus(trophobic).
23:03 To add on to this topic, a good point I've heard someone make that really put how Kris may feel about Ralsei into perspective for me is this. Imagine one day you meet a random person, but without any explanation they look exactly like someone you know. They have their own name, their own personality, and they seem like a nice person, but they have the face of someone you know, and you don't know why. It would be an understatement to say you would probably feel uneasy.
Especially since this stranger is otherwise somewhat suspicious, potentially being linked to the being controlling them and/or some other entity.
Ik this is just a hypothetical but it actually happened to me once! I met this girl that looked exactly like an old friend of mine and had an almost identical name to her, it was extremely weird and unnerving lmfao
@@pringlecontainer2528 i met someone once who had the exact same mannerisms and voice tics as my ex lol, im sure he's a really nice person but i feel weird everytime i talk to him lmaooo
Re: the peace sign, this is also almost certainly a reference to Earthbound
I should play Earthbound one day. Feel like I'm missing out on potential context for what inspired Undertale.
I would say for that last point, instead of actually escaping, jevil and Spamton could see the light world through the shadow crystals they were holding.
this essay made me realize deltarune, just like real life, has only one ending. But it doesn’t have one route, just like real life! Such a cool deconstruction of players expectations of “multiple endings” in video games. Toby Fox really has a knack for making video games feel “alive” , much like how it’s hinted that gaster experiments with the game and its files the same way a scientist would experiments with organisms and specimen.
Delta is also used as shorthand in math/etc. for “change in” like as you solve for how X changes across a line, you can call that/write that as delta X. You solve for the slope of a line with delta Y/delta X. This aligns with the game’s question of whether our choices matter or *change* things. The series being called Deltarune also implies a change in magic, a change in a spell, or a change in meaning/words, depending on how you interpret “rune.”
Rune is also the name for a letter in an ancient Germanic alphabet, and, if we do take delta as referring to 4 or fourth, the fourth rune in several of the first runic alphabets means god. Or if we take both meanings of delta together, it would be suggesting a “change in gods” like the conflict for control of Kris and the world of the game.
I like the idea of asking "do you spare enemies to Get The Ending or bc you don't want to hurt anyone" but there is also the third option: the spare/sleep mechanic is more fun to engage with than the combat mechanics. People who don't care about video game morality still spare most enemies because the dialogue is funny and more enjoyable than just Punch Guy
or because its faster(also you technically fall into the category of not wanting to hurt anyone if not for the speed because I regurgitate spookydood opinion)
There’s also another reason as well. Generally speaking playing nice is easier. Sure you could go out of your way to do the snow grave route but that’s a hassle and it gets you the harder fight at the end. The same holds true for real life it’s generally easier to just play along and be nice most the time. There are exceptions though. Some people are absolutely horrid people and you need to be able to retaliate if needed to protect that which you care about. Even empathetically challenged individuals will usually maintain a level of cooperation if they care about self preservation but they will absolutely destroy any threats to themselves or what they care for. Most the time it’s just easier to not be actively seeking conflict. Unfortunately even if you don’t seek conflict it still comes. I’d imagine most people act in this sort of fashion. I’d imagine the average person wouldn’t jump on a grenade to save a friend. But they wouldn’t go out of their way to throw grenades at strangers either. Aka the most common dnd alignment is some form of neutral on the morality scale ( most likely lawful neutral)
@@ultimaterecoil1136 ME I'M THE EMPATHETICALLY CHALLENGED PERSON
I would totally go for the genocide and snowgrave routes but I'm also just bad at games and honestly that's my morality irl, I don't care if people suffer but like, isn't it just easier to be kind?
@@theflyingspaget thankfully it is easier to be kind. People actively help those kind to them even if only in small ways and actively seeking conflict can make you enemies that actively seek your harm. Society never would have risen up in the first place if it wasn’t beneficial to work together as opposed to taking from others exclusively
The thing I absolutely love about Deltarune is the way the black screen is used. Since we the player control Kris whenever it’s a black screen our face reflects off of the screen implying that we are there.
For example when Kris Susie Ralsei and the Boombox people are dancing in a circle we are looking through the middle as if we are joining in. Is as if they know we are there when they don’t.
Really creepy stuff
I thought Kris was moving that way because they're without their soul. We never see Kris with the soul moving aside from them jumping out of bed or on the couch, and it could just be that Kris is moving tiredly, only able to overpower the soul's control when they're asleep.
Also I don't really ever understand what people are talking about with free will. You make it sound more like people are capable of snap-judgements that have no origin, but people always have reasonings, either reactionary or involuntary. Just because I can only choose one thing doesn't make it less of a choice, same goes for "choosing to not play," that's not somehow beating the system, that's simply having a shorter run.
If that point about the soul is interesting, but Kris moves normally once they put their soul back in in ch 2, then they get weird again once everyone goes to sleep.
I do wanna note the peace sign is a BIG reference to earthbound, which is like, y’know. Earthbound.
Say “Fuzzy Pickles!”
I thought that after the intro you were going to say "You've just turned up the volume, didn't you? I knew you would, that was predetermined."
I had to think about this for awhile and then rewatch this part of the video lol, but I find the part about Susie's choice to attack darkners vs your choice to warn them a little flawed, only because warning the darkners about her doesn't actually bar her from making the choice. When lancer sends the trio to jail, he is intending to incapacitate them so they're totally unable to make the choice to attack the king, but warning the darkners just lets them know what situation they're in, it doesn't prevent Susie from attacking them. The choice is still up to the player and one might still see not warning the darkners are more respectful of or friendly to Susie, but imo doing so definitely isn't overriding or taking away her choice at all.
Susie’s choice is unique inside the game. Until now there is not way to control or change what she chooses. The warn enemies thing is to avoid hurting them.
@@MoRPho151 yeah, that's what I'm saying. In the video it's said as if you warning the enemies somehow inhibits her right to choose, which it doesn't really.
The philosophical and religious aspects this game has usually go very unnoticed, and are a very interesting part of the worldbuilding.
The fact that the cage Kris throws the soul into is sitting within a toy wagon is really compelling now that you mention the chariot rider and the two horses.
Pretty sure Kris facing the camera for the peace sign is just as a reference to EarthBound and the infamous cameraman cutscenes.
kris’s soul actually leans towards certain options
at 26:00 or so, them turning to the camera for the peace sign is an earhtbound reference, but if we were to think of it diagetically i agree with your points
I like to believe that, like in most games, random assets are used waaaaay under the map. assets waiting to be called. I think this is where the person the code is. perhaps the bunker is the way to get there?
Dude the greek mythos theory is really good. Like, really good. This is awesome.
12:02 But in the light world you also have the choice of what to say to Onionsan, and if you choose to be mean Onionsan won't talk to you ever again, which persists even between chapters. There's also a lot of other choices from chapter 1 that have an effect on chapter 2, mostly just decided to talk to different NPCs, for example talking to Noelle in chapter 1 causes her to give Susie the chalk in chapter 2.
Maybe the reason that our choices in the light world aren't as obvious as those made in the dark world is because we haven't spent nearly as much time in the light world yet?
Plus, if that was really what Toby was trying to say, why are there so many choices in the dark world that don't do anything? Like, when we are asked to choose who to go with into the city and Susie goes with Ralsei no matter what?
the only choice that matters in the light world so far is with Noelle. you can tell her that Susie likes to eat calk, and she will give Susie a box of chalk as a gift. and it's something you have to go out of your way for, going to the hospital, talking to Rudy, then selecting the right dialogue options with Noelle. I think it was intentional that the only times your choices REALLY matter is with Noelle, someone infamous for breaking games.
ya know, I might just make a theory out of this...
0:09 yep. That's true. I saved this video on my watch later playlist
My favorite thing: existential dread
I swear to god, I've started watching this video at least twice now. I don't remember stopping it, and I don't remember finishing it.
This video creates a memory gap every time. What is happening
“DO YOU THINK
THAT THE OUTCOME YOU HAVE REACHED WAS
THE RESULT OF YOUR OWN DECISIONS?"
"OR WAS YOUR
ENTIRE JOURNEY
WRITTEN OUT FOR YOU ON AO3?"
Fate. You just described fate.
I didn't decide to click on this video, it auto played while I was taking a dump
it could also be that “our choices dont matter” is something we are rebelling against.
39:15
I disagree with this because Kris slashed the tires in chapter 2. What primal desire would make them want to do something as specific as that? We also see them turning on the TV and opening the door before they make a new fountain, so I believe what Kris is doing is very methodical when they tear out their SOUL.
As a non-native english speaker, the first time i played deltarune and heard of Titans my first thought was the greek mythology, and i wondered if it's a reference or if this game is gonna have more of a mythos vibes. Later I've learnt it's just a word nowadays fiction likes to use for gigantic creatures, and doesn't have to relate to mythology at all, so I didn't look further into it.
Funny how everything wrapped around and now it seems it actually may be related to greek mythology after all.
Haven't finished the video but something i just realised is that The gonermaker sequence tells us that none of our decisions matter IN THIS WORLD (lightworld) hence why we CAN make decisions in the dark world, and choose who we want to be (either pacifist or weird route)
the split soul theory is soo interesting to me
stories where characters cant control their most deepest dark desires is just peak to me
Very interesting ! 👍 I like the part about greek mythology.
Two counterpoints:
1. The peace sign photo is mostly meant to be an Earthbound reference. In Earthbound, once in a while, you can take a photo of your characters showing their peace signs towards the screen.
2. Yes, Spamton does have a physical form. That being the printed spam emails in the bottom right corner of the computer lab.
Jevil is also a joker card, and judging by his imprisoned position in Card Castle, in the Unused Classroom he is probably hidden in a hard-to-reach place too. But it's quite obvious that he is simply a joker card, not anything more complicated.
In plato's allegory of the cave the pain he feels when he leaves the cave is supposed to be a metaphor for the way that new information requires you to break down and re-examine your existing belief systems. In some versions of the story (I believe even the original version of the story), some people believe the returning prisoner well enough to follow him out of the cave but after experiencing the pain for themselves retreat back into the cave and redouble their original beliefs that there isn't anything outside the cave, the pain is their justification for being hostile towards the returning prisoner's attempts to convince them to leave.
A rudimentary understanding of philosophy is basically a prerequisite for being an artist in any medium. mostly because it is a subject that is difficult to avoid if you are engaging with enough introspection to make decent art. "thinking about thinking" no way that would ever come up when you're busy thinking about yourself and what you are doing.
even if it does nothing in the end I am being the kinds of person I can be because I don't want to hurt anyone I will be a pacifist like in Undertale even if in the end it doesn't change a thing I will be true to myself I don't want to hurt anyone I want to make friends I even hope that some point me and Kris can become friends or at least reach a understanding that I was thrown into the situation on controlling them by that mystery's voice just as much as they where
Yay, Plato kidnapping a bunch of people and forcing them into watching his shadow puppet show mentioned!
It’s the fact you knew i only came on TH-cam to watch something while eating food…
Determinism does not equal you do not matter. You act because of determinism, therefore you are part of determinism.
a man who is fated to put in 1 effort is just as responsible for their choices as a man who put in 100%. 1 times 1 = 1, 1 times 100 = 100. 100+1 = 101
The man who put in 1 effort was fated to chose 1, but they still chose that path, the man who put in 100 effort still chose. We are told by society that our responsibilities are to be a part of the future, to attempt success. Choosing to attempt at all is critical in success.
Am I determining your future, as others have done for me for my present? Was I a part of deciding to be the way I am?
Be a part of the equation of the universe, despite determinism and free will.
At the end of chapter 2, in the library's computer room, if you look inside the trash can, you'll find a bunch of spam e-mails that were supposedly "accidentally printed" and thrown in there. This could very likely be Spamton's real world equivalent, and possibly also the way he finally made it out of his fake cave reality and into the real one.
So, kirs choices don't matter But the choices of the player does
Deltarune fans are the kinda people to use ancient philosophy to explain banana theory
kris also became friends with Susie a day ago, and they’re healed a way larger amount of HP with Susie tea than ralsei tea…
Chose to watch before I knew it existed? No. Lacking actual free will? yes.
immediately i am so shocked. of course ralsei is the first choice actually accepted in the game. that's so crazy.
4:00 left me like 👁👁
And here I thought that people were going to try to guess my real name so I cut it at the J-O-
Nope they thought I was going to name my vessel a slur.
D E L T A R U N E!
There's also another choice that's fairly interesting. When Susie teams up with Lancer to fight Kris, she gives you the "option" of either fighting, or not fighting. If you don't move the cursor, the option "Let's Not" is highlighted yellow for a split second before Susie interrupts.
theory: kris (and our control over them) is meant to represent determinism while susie is free will
I find the snowgrave fun, not because it's a sadistic thing to do, but because it's such a HUGE change of pace from the "happy go lucky" route from the normal game
It's like watching a horror movie, I don't think what the characters do is justified or right, but I find it entertaining to be horrified by their actions
I wanna see how much Toby can push this narrative, I wanna be like "oh god why is this happening"! haha
"If you believe in hard determinism you can not also believe that you are responsible for your own actions."
Sure you can. Frankfurt's Principle of Alternative Possibilities isn't universally accepted, and you can very well construct models of moral agency or responsibility without it or free will. Choice can be understood as a class computational processes, it doesn't have to be dependent on breaking causal determinism or that process having been able to reach a different outcome under the same starting parameters.
That's pretty interesting and I could see that having even deeper parts of it
22:31 I honestly don't think this point has too much weight, considering Susie met Ralsei at the same time Kris did; and she heals a whopping 120 HP.
The Duck keeps existing, why shouldn't the entity we created during character creation exist? They're our creation and they will have to live with whatever we gave them now that they exist in some form.
Knowing the creator of the game this character won't just go away after they came into being and will have a big impact on the story later.
"What if I told you that you already decided whether or not you were going to click on this video before you even woke up this morning?"
Joke's on you, I added it to my queue yesterday.
Toby Fox also worked on Homestuck, in which the Greek Zodiac plays a role...
ain't no way funny banana thing is this deep
Not gonna lie if the "weird route" is just the player corrupting a new npc every chapter, I'll be really disappointed. Not just because it'd be a lazy rehash but because it would take away from what made the Snowgrave route work so well. It's uniqueness in its execution.
22:30
Also nello literally hasn't met him when she can get the tie, and had a lower HP gain then kris for it, implying he likes him more then a total stranger
I thought you were going to say this--- Kris = the Rationale, Ralsei = the spirit, and Susie = the Appetite
Susie and Ralsei act as influences on Kris and who Kris wishes they could be. Ralsei being the pink horns and representing the way Kris wishes they could look like and act (implying he wishes he was a lot like Asriel), and Susie acting out on her desires and interests (unable to be controlled by the player) is what Kris wants to be like. You sort of touch on this when you pointed out that some of the choices the player is given reflect what each of our party members (Ralsei and Susie) would pick.
I'm absolutely in the camp that the soul, the player, however you wanna frame it are as much trapped in the context of the game's rules as Kris is. The most agency we have is to choose not to play the game and that's not really a choice.
As the (second?) voice said: "In **THIS** world you have no choice"
Also, the letter delta is used to signify change. As to it being the fourth letter and there being 3 delta warriors, consider that the capital letter delta is a triangle.
I think the delta is for the symbol, not the number. It’s a triangle, the monster emblem has triangle and we are a party of three at the time, making a triangle.
In deltarune the monsters have determination and there many evidence about that
Good video. Not sure if i agree with the mega theory but the cave theory was pretty neat.
Thank you TBH I use the term Mega theory as a blanket to hide how scatterbrained this video is. It's just a bunch of theories I had; but didn't feel like making separate videos for. MEGA THEORY just sounds better :)
@@XDNighthawkXD In case you're wondering i was using it as a blanket term for the whole video. Honestly, i should've been more specific.
the main thing i was unsure of was the one with Kris before the cave theory. It made sense and was pretty interesting but it felt sliiiiiiiiiiiightly too much of a stretch.
i kinda decided to not think of anything Kris related awhile back, mainly because i don't want muddle my opinion of deltarune with expectations of what Kris' story is.
i liked the other stuff mostly.
Good video overall. Personally, I really dislike the idea of Kris tearing out their own soul to combat the player. Not only is there evidence to suggest that Kris has been doing this since before the player began interacting with the world (the birdcage/wagon setup, the stain on the carpet, Kris's bathroom habits), but it's also just very out of character. Why would they endanger two people they care deeply about after a Snowgrave route? (Toriel and Susie)
Also, everyone just seems to handwave how Kris is even doing this in the first place. It's not normal for one to be able to reach inside of themselves and rip out their soul. It's not normal for someone to manifest a knife out of thin air. Also, if Kris is controlling themselves during these segments, why do they shamble around so awkwardly even before removing their own soul? They don't shamble when moving on their own during the game proper like when Kris defends Susie.
Everything seems to point to some alternate entity controlling Kris during these moments. I just hate the "Kris is fighting back against the player" idea because the message of "HOW DARE YOU CONTROL A CHARACTER AND PLAY A VIDEO GAME" just seems really shallow and not really saying much of anything.
However, the idea of Kris's soul splitting and them being drive purely by appetite is really interesting and fitting.
I think this is a take a lot of people shared around chapter 1's release, but was eventually phased out of popular opinion due to Chapter 2's events and more in-depth dives into the game's theming. Its not a story of "HOW DARE YOU PLAY THE GAME," its a story of "What if the character you played as knew you existed and had their own feelings about that?" Kris' feelings just so happen to be negative, as most peoples' would be if they were possessed and controlled by some otherworldly entity.
As for the knife part, they clearly just had it in their pocket/on their person somehow, inventory logic or maybe even a sheath. Toriel acknowledges it in Ch.2 as "Kris' knife", so why wouldn't they be expected to carry around their own personal possession, possibly for self defense, late-night pie eating, slashing their mom's car tires, or whatever else Kris does in their daily routine. And on the note of tearing their soul out... This is just my theory, entirely baseless and only bits and pieces of evidence exist in the game, but I believe Kris gains a sense of "control" specifically during cutscenes. Think about it; at what point in a game is the Player weakest? During a scripted cutscene, and especially at the END of the game (or chapter in this case) where their input, their choices, don't matter. This is somewhat backed by when we see Kris moving on their own in the Dark Worlds. They never initiate it, its always during a pre-existing cutscene (Defending Susie during King's post-fight cutscene, doing a pose when reuniting with their friends or approaching the arcade machine the second time before Queen is interrupted by Burghley).
Finally, as for why Kris seems like they were already possessed? I have NO clue!
I don't think Kris is possessed by another entity, their actions, while extreme, feel reasonable for their situation and line up with their own interests. They clearly want to explain to Undyne, the POLICE CHIEF of all people, about dark worlds, and when that doesn't work they get their mother (another trusted figure) to call the police to their home, and then open a dark world with Susie and Toriel inside, two of their most trusted allies besides Noelle and _maaaaybe_ Ralsei. And if they are the Knight and its not a fakeout like chapter 1? All the more reason that they're acting of their own will.
I feel like Kris has had some history with dark worlds, or at least darker forces akin to Gaster, and Catti even says she helped Kris with some occult stuff a long while ago, possibly around when Dess disappeared and/or the event that happened at the Bunker, which would have prompted Kris to take action into researching the dark arts and "finding her" as the game insists we do.
@@MeloniestNeon I should point out that the knife Toriel talks about looks different and Kris never gets it back, yet they still have one at the end of the chapter. That said, at the start of the Light World segment, Kris collects a shitton of stuff from the computer lab for no inventory space and we can't interact with any of it, either, so the knife thing doesn't seem all that out of the ordinary. Since we know the Dark World inventory is like, magic pockets, I wonder if the implication is that all the inventory items are like, horribly shoved into Kris's pockets...?
@@petruciosxd1374 PLEASE let it be the latter, I love the idea that Kris' pants pockets are just STUFFED with an entire laptop, PC tower and various calculators and wires as they walk back to the school
As for the knife thing, I think that's just a stylistic difference in how it was shown, both are clearly Kris' knives, so it would be easy to explain away with them having a collection, or the spritework being a bit different between chapters.
I think a big part of why people dislike these theories is that they expect "the player" to actually be an in universe character, which would feel awkward.
Undertales story was also meant to examine the relationship between the player and the game, even including the literal save and load mechanic into the story. Yet it was done in a way where we were never directly called out, yet still felt responsible for our actions. Canonically everything we did was done by frisk and maybe chara.
I strongly believe that will be the same in deltarune. There will never be a moment where Kris faces the camera and goes "grrr, I hate you 'player', you are controlling me" and then rips their soul out. Instead we will be represented by some sort of stand in entity. What that entity will be is anyones guess, but I personally think it will be a demon. Lore on demons in Undertale is very thin, but chara calls themselfes one and they are referenced in thr code a bit, so its safe to say they do exist in universe. And we know from chara that they have the ability to take over someones soul and control them, so its the most likely option imo. Although I dont think that we are literally playing as deltarune chara, but who knows at this point.
@@tobiasbayer4866 werent we directly called out in undertale though, when flowey says "let frisk be happy. let frisk live their life"? i mean hell even before that he says "you know who im talking about, dont you? thats right. im talking about YOU."
it seems to make it pretty clear that we are separate from our player characters, (frisk and kris) which i can only assume means that we are, by default, our own type of character within the universe. or at least something the game and certain characters are aware of. that much is made clear in both games, even though we dont know the details of how it all works.
There might be a plot twist and that your choices did matter
I tried to talk about this video to my friends, and this was the resulting ramble: "
....instead of addressing all that
I'd just like to say that between determinism and free will...
...I'm honestly not sure I give a shit.
Decisions are unreasonably hard. I don't care if they're genuinely my own or not, I just want others to make them.
I suppose that would push me more towards determinism in an idealistic sense.
Any time my brain does not naturally supply an opinion, I desperately look to others to fill that gap.
I am often forced by the reality I live in to act like I have more opinion than I actually do, and it's exhausting.
I don't often care where the opinions I do have come from. I am satisfied with them.
And when I am not satisfied with them, I look to change them. I suppose that is my free will.
But again, my issue isn't feeling nihilistically like those opinions aren't my own, 'oh noo'.
I hate the times I don't have an opinion with significantly more ferocity than anything relating to the debate of free will.
I am significantly more interested in research into the nature of indecision, decision fatigue, and analysis paralysis, than I am the issue of free will vs determinism.
...So much so that my answer is resounding indifference.
...I find that result interesting."
I think it is very interesting to let berdly have his hand blown up in the Cyber world. It not genocide or pacifist its the cost of victory. I think a story where ee walk away with a few scars is the most interesting.
Fun fact, I’m playing the snow grave route right now and absolutely hating every second of it 👍
thank you for such a lovely video! very thought provoking!
Got 8 seconds in, then it went from a video I was interested in, to immediate back then “do not recommend channel”.
Don't call people mentally ill for liking dark stuff. Just because someone likes the snow grave route doesn't mean they're any less or more than you. Is that how you view people that love horror or true crime. Kinda shitty especially since you didn't make it a joke you just said it.
Let's assume for a moment that all of reality is deterministic. Given the exact same moment in time, the same circumstances, one person would reach the same conclusion and make the same decision every time.
However, subjectively, choice still exists for that individual. The things they are considering, their potential internal monolog, their mood, their preferences, the things they've felt that day are part of how they decide what they do.
One being informed that "Free will doesn't exist" and changing their path of decision making to have far less effort, less consideration, and to assume that "it doesn't matter, it's going to be the same anyway" is a misunderstanding of what it means to not have free will, because subjectively that person has now assumed that they would get the same outcome from putting in less effort and thought as they would from having put in more effort and thought. Which is not the case, since those would be very different states of existence.
It takes a bit of thought to understand that point though. I feel like it's something that's easier to grasp for people who have experience with programming or robotics.
But my point is that Deltarune's "Your choices don't matter (because this story concludes the same way)" and "Free will isn't real (because the universe is deterministic, your beliefs and thoughts are the byproduct of every moment preceeding)", and "Choice doesn't matter (everything will play out the same no matter what you believe)" are deceptively similar sounding, but imply very different things.
16:13 The problem with this reasoning this the point is that this necessitates by cause of effect that there is an external variable that influences events which are uncontrollable, Inconsistent, and Is immeasurable by people which is effectively randomness Which I'd argue a person cannot reasonably be placed responsible for
20:18 this has nothing to do with the Weird route, it's just her dialogue for not having recruits. You can still recruit some denizens of the cyber world after the point of no return and her dialogue will change accordingly
Before the video even properly starts, yes, I know I had decided to watch this video even before I knew it existed. That's because we are all built and developed by the events around us, as well as internal factors such as emotions and processing, so all the prior events that have happened to me and how they developed me as a person/character influence my future actions. Just how my actions might influence someone else out there and further develop them. None of us exist in a vacuum and there's no such thing as predetermined personality or behaviour (genetically, but it can be fabricated through specific events.
I hope I got the point right. Okay, now let's watch
Free will is an illusion
personally, i put white flashes in an animation because it's flashy
"what if I told you that you already decided to watch this video before you woke up this morning"
no dip Sherlock, that's what the "Add to watch later" button is there for
splendid
Good video nutu man i hare 3rd entity theroy.
It seems so much better if its kris havign toeibel moving without a soul
If the secret bosses escaped to the light world, you think we’ll fight them as regular teenagers?
Jokes on you i clicked on this video by accident (but i will be back to watch it when its not bedtime. The fact I'm not gonna use it as background noise to fall asleep to is high praise)
Nighthawk? You made isolation?
Wow this was incredible ❤️ commenting for engagement 😊