18:15min.s - You had me until you showed your lack of sympathy for Paris Hilton, despite the fact that she was secsually' assaulted in residential treatment facilities-something that led her to testify before Congress, just recently, and fight to help other foster children in such facilities (like I was). Just because she was rich does not mean that her parents didn't stash-'her'-away without any rights inside of a residential facility where she was assaulted on a daily basis. Does she still not deserve sympathy? That is hideous.
Thank you letting me know about this. I didnt know about this while I was making the video so thanks for letting me know that’s my own fault and I’m sorry I didn’t include this in the video or in my perspective
paris hilton is really horrible. the way she’s treated other women throughout her career is abhorrent. just because she’s traumatized doesn’t mean she gets a free pass.
@@coolchameleon21, so, was this the revocation of that free pass-her secsual' assault? Please, do tell... At the conclusion (prelude and interlude) of whatever you're saying', she still is a woman who was victimized by secsual' assault because of the pure fact that she was a vulnerable woman. In-step with the theme of this very video that's focusing upon femininity, feminism itself, and perpetuation of the protection of women and pummeling of the patriarchy, it would behoove those of this ilk to have 'across the board' politics that don't cease the moment they encounter a person of another way of life or character. I'll be honest and admit that I do not know of any ways that she has dehumanized or disparaged other women because I was a child when those things are alleged to have happened ('94). I do know that nothing I posited in my comment makes what you just posited a valid response as if it somehow negates what I put forth. It almost sounds as if you're advocating that we should not care because of her past. For juxtaposition, as a Black woman, I do not believe racists deserve to be repad'-do you?
I don’t think Katy Perry’s video is satire. It feels more like they were trying to prop up a very average song with average lyrics by using some mild feminist imagery which probably would’ve worked in the early 2010’s. But I don’t see how she could try to make a “feminist anthem” while partnering with Dr.Luke.
@@ninanano it was so shit I actually looked at the credits and it was mostly men in production which is like the final undermining of what she said her message is
@@ninananoOh 100%. People loooove using Fancy Words like satire, subversion, deconstruction, etc. bc they think we're so stupid that they make the slop they're selling sound smart that we'll respect them and suddenly be on board. In reality it just makes them look stupid because they never use those terms correctly, and it makes us react like how we're doing now.
As a white cis male my opinion is very important, and I think Katy Perry isn't going far enough. Women should stand up to the patriarchy, by going back to the kitchen and being home makers ironically! That'll show them for sure! Disclaimer: this is meant sarcastically, and my own opinion is opposite of everything above.
I also find as a gay man a lot of other gay men treat conventionally attractive straight women as props even if that's just diva worship its still only seeing women as having worth if they're conventionally pretty
I don’t think I get what you’re saying. You can value someone for their beauty clothing make up and also value their intelligence or creativity. You can be ugly and still be valued for a million other things.
It's wild to me that Katy Perry of all people is making fun of women who "appeal to the male gaze by sexualizing themselves and yet think they're feminist" when she has been dressing herself in a "sexy" way for basically her entire career. There's nothing wrong with her dressing sexy or her wanting to attract men, but it's hypocritical for her to make fun of other women for doing the same or for claiming that they're "not real feminists".
Yeah, if she dressed the way she did but was open about the pressures on women in media to look a certain way/said she basically needs to look hot in order to exist as a female celeb, that’s valid. But empowerment -/- dressing sexy 24/7 and constantly objectifying yourself, and I hate that so much of female-centered pop pretends it is.
Heck, I'd go as far as to say that *no* satire can escape this particular fate. That would have to require literally everyone to engage with media beyond a surface level, and for from everyone has the energy and/or willingness to do just that. Any artist that aims to change the minds of their audiences, ought to potently present a viable alternative to what already exists, rather than simply draw a caricature of what already exists and then point and laugh at it
That's why I was wary of the whole "let girls be stupid" "I'm a 25 year old teenage girl" or anything infantilizing of that nature but i got told I was being a hater and "God forbid women have any fun 🙄" lol
It reminds me of the whole artisanal millennial hipster thing where the did things " ironically ". You're still doing the damn thing no matter what you label it.
The standard I hold for good satire is that anybody interpreting it at face value be able to be proven wrong through using purely the source material itself. If it has to be explained and excused afterwards then it’s bad satire, but it might still be a good/interesting/valuable/provocative point of discussion. It’s misleading to couch these things as satire, however.
@@sarahwilliams4092and honestly if you do something ironically, eventually you do start to like the thing you’re doing. Because what is the point of doing it after the first time, if only for irony?
There is suuuuuch a long trend of 2010s popstars announcing feminist intent while being misogynistic (Marina’s “Girls” comes to mind). But it’s good to note that these songs are also really disconnected from Black feminism specifically. Even thinking about the Rosie the Riveter symbol, yeah she’s a feminist icon who marks a change in gendered power, but…which women were able to not work and survive before the 1930s? It was middle-/upper-class married white women. Women of color and working-class women were already holding jobs, and many of them became the primary breadwinner for their families during The Great Depression, because their bosses didn’t fire them since they were cheap labor. Lesbians who couldn’t have a household of their own had to work multiple jobs to stay alive. And who saw economic gain after the war? It wasn’t the Japanese women who were imprisoned and had their property stolen. It wasn’t the Black women who had their jobs given to whites women. It was the white women who replaced them. Social progress is only judged by where white women stand and moralizations about destructive cultural movements are almost always in response to white women engaging with or appropriating signifiers of Black womanhood (the demonization of plastic surgery, for example). In this vein of music, very rarely are Black and brown women even considered or are injustices like the fact that Black women are one of the most educated populations in the US and the least paid populations brought up in girl-boss feminism.
@@Traveleronthelamb Marina recently said she wasn't trying to make a "feminist anthem" with Girls. She was young and was being misogynistic without realizing it. If that's what you mean about "not understanding it"
They never talk about feminism as it relates to marginalized people, which if frustrating. Like, we are really that much of an afterthought that we can’t be included in the broader discussion by default and not a separate category? Each piece of it matters in having a well rounded discussion. If they really wanted to get into the weeds of it, they’ll do the work. This video was about white women, which is a frequent choice when people make these kinds of videos.
Dude thank you so much for mentioning some women don't have uterus. I had mine removed because of a surprise tumor and ever since I've been really aware of how focused we are on highlighting the uterus as being the thing that "makes us women" or it's how to bring us together as a group. I don't have a uterus anymore, so I'm not included? I really appreciate you saying that and validating me as a woman - even without my uterus
@@cristalblackstar8177 there are also hermaphroditic people that have both uterus and penis so I just don't get the strict definition that the organs = the gender identification of the person. Theres always an exception to the rule
@@jerpica.d6735 Except that "hermaphroditic people" don't have two functional sexual organs. They can't impregnate someone and get pregnant themselves. They're just a man/woman with an error.
About the point of unabashedly being yourself, it says something that any woman who lives for herself will piss off sexist men. Women who are super feminine and/or monetize their sexuality will get lots of flack online, even if *in theory* that seems to be aligning with the male gaze, because misogynist men want women who exist *for them*. They'll find any woman with her own thoughts, feelings and preferences to be a 'bad' woman.
Thank you! Exactly this. It's part of the reason I hate a lot of the "makeup is self expression vs. makeup is just a tool of the patriarchy" type discussions, because at the end of the day, in the context of feminism, _it was never about the makeup._ It's the fact that women, fems, or people perceived fem, are wearing it. It's about anything associated with feminity being demeaned and demonized by the patriarchy, regardless of what it is. The women who don't wear makeup get called "lazy, unkempt, dirty" and are treated like crap for "not being attractive" or ignored, the women who do wear it (either for themselves or for the purpose of appealing to men) get called "vapid, try hards, deceitful, shallow" and get treated like crap by being objectified. There's no winning because the system is set up to be fems < men, the rhetoric surrounding it are just shallow excuses to justify that core belief of patriarchy. There isn't logic to it, and you can't logic your way around it. Someone dumping on femininity or distancing themselves from it or acting like they're "above it" isn't going to dismantle or get someone treated better under patriarchy for the same reasons that women who fully lean into the patriarchal ideal don't get treated any better. It's not about what you're doing, what you're wearing. If we woke up tomorrow and suddenly construction was considered feminine or "women's work" the patriarchy would devalue and demean it all the same. The point shouldn't be "If you wear makeup you're contributing to and upholding the patriarchy" it should be "why should someone's choice to wear makeup or not determine how much of a person they're treated as, and why is that level of 'personhood' always placed _below_ men regardless?" People should be allowed to exist and present themselves in whatever way makes them feel comfortable. Policing how women and fems present themselves from the opposite direction isn't dismantling the patriarchy, it's just reinforcing rigid gender roles in a different way. Someone trying to beat the game by using the patriarchy's rulebook against them doesn't really achieve anything, because they don't actually believe in their own rules, they made them up so they could boss you around.
Lizzy, I love how you keep bashing men, but we know that women are the worst misogynists towards each other. For example, I don't care that you do sex work, but I reserve the right to not be attracted to you or engage with you. And yes, we should call out women who sexualise themselves on platforms that are accessible to minors.
Monetizing your sexuality does often feed back into the male gaze, though, and trying to do it purely for yourself is as difficult as assessing why you feel a draw towards conforming to a particular idea of womanhood. Instead of shaming women for fitting the male gaze it’s better to shame men for assuming that everything is done for their benefit!
@@katfujioka212 "it’s better to shame men for assuming that everything is done for their benefit!" Why is it better? If you're monetising your sexuality, it benefits both people. One offers a service and the other pays for that service. However, when we reach a level of entitlement is it when it becomes toxic. For example women feeling entitled to a man's money (dating, going on vacation, divorce, etc.) or men throwing money at random women thinking they'll get naked. Let's not forget that women have their ideals for men as well and that if the man doesn't fit that image, he has no chance with her. I've said it for years: Gender roles are only for men. Women can do whatever the fuck they want and still receive applause.
To be fair/honest I don't really like Katy Perry anyway, but it does feel especially funny that she of all people is making fun of a type of feminist/woman when you look back on her career. There's a lot of cultural appropriation, skimpy costumes, and even a song (I Kissed A Girl) that makes queer women kind of a spectacle. I'm not sure where she's coming from here. As for Pink, I can admit I liked the song Stupid Girls for a bit when I was younger, but as I got older I realized it was flawed.
'I Kissed A Girl' is probably why Katy didn't feature any lesbians in her new music video; she probably believes homosexuality is only genuine when it's between two men, whereas anything between two women has to be fake and existing for the sake of entertaining straight men
Stupid Girls feels like it's Pink working through some stuff to some extent, whereas Katy Perry's song is way more performative feeling (and as you say, this isn't a new thing)
@@AnarchistArtificer Yeah...A charitable interpretation of Stupid Girls is that Pink was uncomfortable with the way she was being treated in the music and entertainment industry and with the expectations being put on her...but it manifested in this flawed way. By extension, I think a lot of NLOG and other "internalized misogyny" behavior can be interpreted this way - girls/women being uncomfortable with being objectified, but taking it out on the women being objectified rather than the men doing the objectifying. It doesn't make it okay, but I can see why it happens.
@@360shadowmoon I know that was actually a big reason behind it. she's mentioned it in interviews way back then, she also didn't like some of the comments Christina and Britney had made about her offhandedly when asked about her in interviews. Christina especially got flack for a lot of her interviews back in the day. She caught a diss from Eminem for her interview where she's all giggling and laughing as she talks about his outrage music and then goes on to talk about how cute he is.
@@ldragon8480 Tbf, most of the responses Britney in particular made abt her were due to what P!nk had said about her in interviews/to the press. She mentioned once an incident in which P!nk sent her flowers but then turned around to talk to media about how she feels abt Britney's "lack of authenticity" & how she's always smiling. & then Britney made the point that criticizing her for her image & how she presents herself while doing the same things is hypocritical. She rarely talked abt her & it was mostly praise when she did. She usually just pointed out the double standards between her & her peers when it was brought up to her.
it kills me that nobody knows what feminism is. “feminism” isn’t women having blue hair or women paying for first date it’s about politically pushing for equal LEGAL RIGHTS for EVERYONE. it reeks of internet-brain when someone says they’re not a feminist because they like cooking or love pink. how dare you speak on a movement you don’t even care to know the purpose of? maybe read a book by an actual feminist & stop getting political education on tiktok’s by cringy teens talking out their ass.
u ate!! Actual feminist literature is MILES above internet sound bites that can't even fully gather what they're trying to say. reading real books changed the way i talked about feminism and made me feel much more equipped to explain what bothers me about katy perrys video and the like
This the legacy of Choice Feminism™, a narrow, individualistic interpretation of the movement. Feminism is about the emancipation of women in all spheres, not about individual choices (which are not made in a vacuum.)
Blame the internet. Feminists have a bad rep on the internet because a few internet feminists single out women who enjoy things like cooking, cleaning, or other feminine hobbies as "pick-me girls." The women who DO enjoy these things or are in a more traditional role see this and think, "I guess I'm not a Feminist then."
As a femimist myself with a pretty basic, but broad knowledge and understanding of feminist history around the world (especially Japan's feminism duality), I do think feminism is not quite as definable as we like to think it is. Much like any social movement, feminists within the movement usually have a broad range of values and beliefs about what a feminist society should look like. We often come together on broad topics like women having the right to do/wear/be/etc. something, but then have splits in other areas, like what we think "equality of the sexes" looks like, whether men should be allowed to campaign alongside us, the rights/protections/accomodations trans women should or shouldn't have as women with different bodies from cis women (or in some cases, there are feminists who don't believe trans women are women), whether we see sex as oppressive or empowering to women, etc. I think gatekeeping the movement is bad, not just because it has the potential to exclude future important players that can further equality as a whole, but also because it sanitizes the complicated, often problematic past and present of the movement. Maybe we're all just afraid to associate ourselves with people we find to be fundamentally different from us lest it be harmful to our own image. Either way, I just don't care much for the _"actual feminists"_ framing of other feminists over their beliefs. We can still criticize those beliefs without trying to define them out of existence.
IMO something we should accept is that not every action of ours is going to be a feminist one, no matter how powerful and good you feel doing it. I see this pop up in feminist discourse all the time, that every action a woman chooses to do is good and feminist and that feminism is all about choice, which isn't true. Some actions can and do benefit the existing system (sometimes unintentionally) and its disingenuous to claim otherwise. That said, we also need to remember that its not a moral failure to do something because it is expected of you, or because you feel accepted doing it.
Thank you - what I took away from this is there is nothing wrong with dressing to feel attractive but still want to be seen as whole person not just potentially fuckable and it's also okay to have days when you can't be arsed and still don't want to be judged as something less fuckable
Like dressing to look nice. Even in my school days I was constantly disappointed with my male peers. To my peers, popular or nerds, everyone wore a T-shirt with something printed on it. Go outside right now and men and boys dress indistinguishably from each other. One day I dressed up in a half decent suit and simply went out. Heads were turning, people were asking me whats up. Everyone brightened up. And that's as a guy. People may have "expected" me to dress better without my consent, but was it really so bad to do so? Everyone was happier. I felt better, the people I encountered felt better. I can understand everyone can wear sweatpants and pajamas everywhere, and I do that too sometimes. We portray that as freedom, and in a way it is. But if you limit yourself and never "dress to impress" are you really free? Or have people traded one oppressor for another? Freedom also means some people make the bad calls sometimes, out of defiance or error.
@@Pangora2I think it has a lot more to do with how you view what people are doing than what people actually do. Because a lot of times we judge people for what they're wearing and then don't want others to do the same to us. Wearing confortable clothes doesn't have to be viewed as bad and dressing in a more eye caching way shouldn't be viewed as good. It should just be... alright. This person likes long dresses? Alright. This person likes short skirts? Alright. The day we stop overthinking everything is when we will be truly free.
You are at the top of your game Cheyenne you popped off w this one!! I would challenge the idea that there's no "right way to be a feminist", see Lily Alexandre's video on girlboss feminism. It benefits us to be sure to focus on patriarchy, intersectionality, and anti-capitalism as feminist values. At the same time I do agree that we shouldn't police other women about it. It's tough, and nuanced.
I personally feel like framing of a "right way to be a feminist" has its flaws in that it tries to sanitize the real history of feminism, which is and was a historically complicated movement with lots of individual moving partsーsome good, some bad, some grey, and some of everything. Many prominent feminists who played a crucial role in the sufferagette movement and who we owe a lot to in the creation of modern feminism were also racist and excluded black women. Do we suddenly say they were "doing feminism wrong"? We can and should criticize problems in the movement, but I think it's better to shed black-and-white notions of "right" and "wrong" in order to get at the complexities of the movement and the individuals inside it. There are as many ways of being a feminist as there are people who call themselves "feminist". That's how all social movements work, and why movements change so much over time.
i’m sure by this point most people that use the term “male gaze” don’t even know what it means. some makeup videos on tt are like “eyeliner for the male gaze vs the female gaze” bruh i’m sorry but💀💀💀
Let's bear in mind that music videos are often written and directed by cis/het men, according to their cultural and personal tastes, so the musicians and dancers just wear what they are told and paid to wear on camera. "Just following orders" doesn't excuse war crimes, but it does excuse "dirty dancing" in "slutty" costumes, lol!
Yeah, it bothers me that the "woman's world" part of the music video still shows a lot of almost-naked women. It's funny, because by now you'd think people would have realized that women value aesthetics beyond a nude body. Some cute or classy fashion would have been more preferable to something like that. Even lesbians aren't that obsessed with wanting to see a naked woman, because they care about the woman herself outside of sex appeal. Only creepy straight guys that sexualize every woman they see will be enticed by a woman in a bikini, so why do that in a video that is supposed to be doing to opposite?
I think the biggest problem is that we’re all looking to millionaires, disconnected from the average reality of being a person in society, to make social and political commentary about things that don’t affect them in the same way as it affects the rest of us. Of course ALL women deal with misogyny. But, like Cheyenne said, not all women are on all women’s “side.” And I personally feel like most women in pop culture fall under that category. You don’t become as popular as Taylor Swift (just an example) in a patriarchal society, without exploiting themselves and other women.
100% this has been a huge part of the problem that's not talked about nearly enough --it probably takes more nuance than people want to use. But I think this is largely why people became skeptical of Me Too instead of furthering the conversation. It was only public figures and celebrities, all rich and tucked away, which immediately evokes privilege and politics that obfuscate the issue
Regarding Pink’s “Stupid Girl”, I’m of a mixed opinion. I have to think she wouldn’t make that song and video now, but at the time, that was brave. The early 2000’s was a time of rampant conformity bright on by people’s reaction to 9/11, and part of that conformity was an outgrowth of misogyny. It’s bad now, but it was so so so much worse then. You were expected to be thin, blonde, white but tanned, and any deviation from that got a lot of pushback. There was no online shopping, Indy designers were for rich people only, so unless you were thrifting your clothes, your only options were extreme low rise jeans that you were supposed to wear with a thong pulled all the way up. Remember the Whale Tail? Women were expected to be as porny as possible or face open ridicule from all corners. Be a bimbo or be nothing was the message of the day. That’s what Pink was pushing back against. I think it was refreshing and needed at the time.
Thank you had the same exact thought! Unfortunately many parts of this video seemed a little ill-informed (not taking the media landscape of the time under consideration, the Paris Hilton drive-by and some other tidbits), I wonder how old this creator is because it feels like a generational gap maybe :D
Agreed! I feel without context of the times, Pink's "Stupid Girl" video can be misconstrued as a "pick me" anthem. However, I was there in the 2010's with my brown skin and black hair saying "nope!" to conforming.
Yeah I have complicated feelings about it for similar reasons. At the time it felt like “THANK YOU I don’t want to be Paris Hilton and I don’t understand why dumb and blonde is apparently the only way to be acceptably feminine.” But yeah, in retrospect, it’s misplaced anger, because the underlying cultural forces that drive that, and even the actual powerful men enforcing it, are invisible, and Paris and Nicole were ubiquitous. I ended up putting girls down who were probably equally frustrated and confused by that misogyny and dealing with it in their own way, and I developed a deep insecurity about any aspects of my own personality that seemed to align with that “stupid girls” presentation - and ultimately how different was that from just hating femininity? It has felt good recently to let myself be a little dramatic and frivolous, to love pink and glitter, to sometimes just want to wear skimpy outfits and dance at the club to music whose lyrics I could have written when I was 12. I don’t have to be the first woman president to matter. I’m allowed to be a little stupid sometimes. All of which is to say, Stupid Girls could have done a lot better, but Pink was working with what she had then, and it felt good to have someone sing what I was feeling. I just wish none of us, Pink included, had to be so limited in our thinking back then.
It wasn't brave at all. It used to be so cool to hate on women like Britney spears and Jessica Simpson.. She was just being 'not like other girl' while also dancing sexy next to 50 cent in the video 😅
Ironically feminism does not care whether were hyper feminine or not, assuming that our appearance is meant to cater to the male gaze, goes against the main reason to feminism. It enables that "what was she wearing" attitude, that we are still trying to consider their approval instead of being allowed to embrace ourselves.
because we live in a society. gender expression is required for participation in social life. the gag is, we don’t get to choose this; it’s about how we are perceived and how that in itself informs the way we perceive ourselves
YOU can, however as ⬆️ said there's also the external dynamic. You can do, say,be whatever but others are going to have their perceptions of you. The best thing you can do is not care. Which, this whole mess of people right now can't seem to do.
@@mooapologist We have to dismantle this a bit and I hope you enlighten me, an (apparently by societal norms) bisexual latin male that has explored his gender and identity flux. This is a long post, so sorry in advance. Is gender needed though? Unless you are practicing individual segregation for what you deem uncomfortable, well, yeah, but in that sense, then cis people are on the right to call out "the absurd of gender identity", since they be doing the same thing: enclosing themselves on a societal metagroup. Taking that into consideration, is gender needed for society as in pure social circle? Because that would mean you need to get rid of people that observe you from a place of sovereign and misgender; which is basically what has been going on and pointed by trans folks since dawn. Which in turn should free you from adjusting to "a" gender. Society as a market place? We live in a capitalistic socioeconomical landscape. You can't be free of will and identity while on the workplace (since it's commonly not profitable) and laws have been mitigating discrimination more and more, slow and steady, but it still doesn't require you to engage with others through gendering eyes. Society as in necessary networks to ensure the need of reach and intimacy, be it friendship or, idk, reproduction? Get rid of people that suck. Society as in a digital space? That's a hella lot more complicated. The only front that I personally see that gender is useful is from a strictly aesthetical beholder, which is society as a cultural amalgam; be it, relating your self with your performance and fitting in a certain community. Which clashes with any of the distinct layers of, lets call it, commonfolk society anyway and once again means "removing undesirable people from your inner circle". Full Moon. So, we either give in to societal pressure of gendering actions, thoughts and patterns, mindframes and frameworks to try relating to a established expectation from a certain community, or conform to what society as a whole expects us to from heterenormativity? At that point I thought to myself... Why not just study ourselves, our learnt behaviors, mind peace with them (or make an effort to leave them behind) and get rid of gender? Why not be "you" instead of "this"? ...Unless we are truly actually fucked and gendering comes to no fruition for people that haven't really explored their sexuality, or never needed to have an inner dialogue, or suffered trauma, or were born neurodivergent, so our sociocultural norms and expectations are engrained and will be, no matter what, til centuries of metropoli destruction. Worse, if there ever was fault on neoliberalism and it was actually always the need of creating needs to maintain the marketability of human beings and their bodies, and their sensibilities around their bodies. If that's true, then I'll just feel comfortable with Me, and forget I have a cock between my legs and my sex tempts to be homicidal and suicidal. It wouldn't matter anyway.
It doesn't matter that this was satire. The fact that she produced this song with DR FUCKING LUKE OF ALL PEOPLE makes her new song ironic in the worst way possible
I remember when I was a very young girl watching the Pink video. At that time, I felt like I HAD to grow up to look like that and pretend to be stupid/bad at school, following that behavior and aesthetic. An adult male once told me, “Men won't date you when you waste your time trying to be smart.” Pink's video made me think “Oh wow, there is more than one path. All women can do all of these things, including being stupid, being hot for men, or being manly themselves or car washers.” I can't say I thought critically beyond that, but this video felt like a pop culture stepping stone to the next step forward. I am actually very glad that the pink video hasn't aged well… in my brain it feels like we are moving forward then, you know? History should be critically judged with modern eyes, so if I saw this today (like Katy Perry's), I don't think it would be pushing progress forward.
I think the issue with Katy Perry is that she still lavks introspection. Like I remember that Pink used to be kind of pick me, but what changed in her "newer" music is that she started focusing on her own flaws and her own involvement of it. Katy just wants to make vague, grand gestures of feminism or cosummerism without ever even aknowledging her own involvement of it. It's like she refuses to be real about that. Kesha also had her evolution on that whole topic as well. But Katy Perry still doesnt know how to do that.
Wasn't there also that thing where she secksually harrassed a guy? If she thinks that abusing your position of power is okay as soon as the genders are flipped it wouldn't be that much of a shocker that her understanding of Feminism doesn't go very deep.
@@Alias_Anybodyyep! She forced a boy to kiss her on national television. When I say boy, I mean it. He’d never been kissed, he was a minor, and he said later that it was uncomfortable and kind of scary. And that was just what happened on camera, what do you think she does to her fans when the cameras aren’t rolling? So when you find out that she made whatever this is with Dr. Luke, a man who *allegedly* 🙄assaulted Kesha, it makes me feel and think a certain way…
"...You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman." Margaret Atwood is so incredibly insightful. This is something that my wife and I come back to so often: even when I actually do everything right to be supportive and let her take the lead (this is not as often as it should be, even though I try), she still has a lifetime of conditioning tangled in with her own desires for our life, her career, and the way that we raise our children. It's so exhausting for her to try to distinguish between what she actually wants vs what she has been taught to want, and I can't add my voice without making it worse.
Maybe Atwood's statement puts too much pressure on women to think in a standardized conformist version of feminism, rather than interpreting their own way?
The Pink part is interesting but it was also during a time in which the hate towards the women in tabloid magazines was rampant… we all were convinced to hate those kinds of women… which is pretty horrible to look at retroactively. I remember “hating THOSE women… it was a whole paradigm of the 2000’s
This was a great video. I hate being told what to do as a woman. I don't want to play football, I've worked at a warehouse, i like getting my nails done, and i never shave anywhere. But all of these decisions have made me think about my gender and what it means to be a woman. I feel like no matter what i do i end up thinking about what men will think about it. Not just ones im attracted to but ones i specifically DON'T want to attract. Its still male centered and I'm slowly getting to a point where i can make decisions based on what i want and not care what anyone (even women who hate women) think about it.
About Pink: do you have any idea of how many girls around me wanted to do ps and get a big chest, had eating disorders to get disturbingly thin just like those models and celebrities they saw on magazines, and who made terrible choices in life just to try and get a guy because, well, everyone had to get one or else you were a loser? It was everyone, genuinely. There was no body positivity, no actual discussions. I understand why the thing at the end with femininity may irk some people, but I do think it was the most she thought she could do to showcase that there's more to life than trying to be one of those girls who live to please others. You see, Pink didn't mock the girl in the scene for wearing an inflatable bra, she got the idea and copied it because SHE wanted the attention. The character she ultimately mocks isn't the girl, it's herself, changing who she was and what she liked to please others. What irks the girl at the end is the image of a Pink who became someone she wasn't and left all of her smart ideas and unique traits to just be "perfect" visually, and it's what motivates the girl to keep going for her usual toys. At the beginning you see her considering the dollhouse only after seeing those types of girls on TV and starting to think that maybe she should change. Anyways, it's always frustrating to me when people complain about this video because I truly see it as a product of its time. It was way harder to be a girl in the early 2000s in some ways.
"I don't feel as bad for Paris Hilton" As much as I dislike her, she did get sent to a wilderness camp as a child so I do, in fact, feel sympathy for her. Yes she was raised wealthy but she was also legally kidnapped as a child and forced to do hard, abusive labor for a bit so I do have some pity for Paris
Agree! The “Sexy Getting Ready Song “ is another good example of how to successfully play into the male gaze to critique it. That entire show is a hidden gem. More people need to watch it!
I don't know if this is a "bad" feminist view but I do think it's concerning-and something that should be addressed-for women to "dumb themselves down" or overly pander to the male gaze/the patriarchy; obviously it is not women's fault for feeling like they have to pander to the male gaze, etc, but I think to deny some women's complacency in the patriarchy (i.e. like when white women do or say things that perpetuate the misogynoir, racialize beauty standards, etc) under the idea that "who cares" or "their also a victim" or "there are other things to worry about" seems a little odd. Yes, all woman are victims under the patriarchy, but don't we ALL have a responsibility to fight back against it, to not deny our opinions and ideas for male validation-which doesn't only hurt ourselves but hurts other women? I don't know if this is a bad take, I just feel like to gloss over complacency as " who cares" or by saying they're also a victim is kind of disappointing. This doesn't have to do with how they dress or their gender performance but rather when women do dumb themselves and in turn re-perpetuate a stereotype to other women that they can't be "loud" or "opinionated."
Im glad i found someone talking about this. I do think that theres a difference between critiquing women for perpetuating systems of harm and critiquing them for how the present themselves. People may argue that 'stupid girls' is about women dumming themselves down for men but the music video tells the story. One where it just shits on women who arent the right "type" of woman.
I get you. Some women act like you shouldn't criticize any woman for their actions. And any criticism of the sex industry or sex in the media makes you a prude.
I think at some point there’s an element of « live and let live » in here. Not everyone wants to be an activist 24/7 and if a woman can make money by dumbing herself down and acting cute for the camera, then putting it on OF or something, then good for her.
This reminds me of a short I just saw with the caption "If my man said this at the altar I would leave him", and most of the comments were agreeing, saying "girl run", stuff like that. It was literally just the groom indicating his fiancé looked sexy in her wedding dress, and her being all giggly and basically saying "damn right." Did no one actually take a moment to pay attention to HER reaction and consider that she may enjoy that kind of attention from a man who's about to be her husband? I'm saying this as someone who experienced girlhood and is in no way straight, it really bugs me that the only way female sexuality is allowed to be "empowering" is if she's either gay or in the "dominant" position if you know what I mean. A straight man sexually appreciating a woman's body is just as empowering if she's consenting and enjoying the experience.
I do both I usually dress girly sometimes in warm weather but I'm a tomboy so I usually wear baggy clothes a lot and I try to be stylish with it. I think it's fun to mix things up a bit. I do get mocked sometimes as I'm alternative basically goth, which has been heavily over sexualized in recent years it's creepy.
ngl to be taken serious, katy perry just needed to do something serious. her song has like no substance, there is so much more that couldve been said but instead she chose to keep the message at "women = good"
Pretty sure “wrong reasons” just means “compromising your goals and values for male approval” which yeah, don’t compromise what you want and who you are solely to satisfy others
In short, the "male gaze" isn't "things men like about women". It's "a lack of women's agency in their own image". Agency is the crux of everything. There is an argument to be made about whether someone can truly have agency if they don't have awareness of their exploitation, but in that case, I think we need to give these women the tools to become aware rather than shame them for their ignorance. Compassion, not blame. It also takes time and some level of maturity to go through that kind of reflection, so give people chances to grow at their own pace rather than demand that growth from them.
Doesn’t mean it’s not still male gaze, even if it’s for other women. Which sounds absurd to write down, but hear me out. Would the standards in which women judge themselves or each other exist without patriarchy or the male gaze? Even in spaces absent of men? It’s just so in our collective soup, we don’t realize it’s there, like a fish not knowing what water is, because it’s so omnipresent you wouldn’t think of it as anything. It doesn’t mean you should feel bad or anything about enjoying it, it’s just there
..... That's not the meaning of the male gaze means though, it's about the assumption of who's behind the camera and the assumed audience. If someone dresses for aesthetic appreciation of women broadly or the feminine that's who they intended. Or it could be for self expression, the fact that others perceive and possibly may objectify you doesn't change that. Just like someone could dress for different reasons on different days. That patriarchal consumption of women as visual objects occurs doesn't meant "it's for men". Objectifiers would participate in consuming the visual objectified person regardless because such objectification is rarely consensual or even a mutual occurrence. That's why the male gaze works best as art critique. There's a distinct audience that the artist is inherently intentionally trying to illict reactions from and make assumptions about in the process of creation. And not all art makes those assumptions but commercial film is a good example. The critique gets messy outside that space quickly. I'm also not too pessimistic to say fashion and personal expression cannot exist without patriarchy. On a more comic note, go to a sapphic/lesbian bar they are certainly not doing things under a male gaze and many of the signifiers of what's an attractive aesthetic are different even if there is overlap as well. I don't see covergirl doing a butches on motorcycle spread anytime soon. Or hell Kristen Stewarts Rolling Stones gay leather look lit the queer internet on fire but reactionary men hated it.😮
I’m gonna play devil’s advocate for the uterus prop. There’s so many sex ed textbooks out there that censor scientific diagrams of afab reproductive systems as well as diagrams of vulvas while being fine with showing amab reproductive diagrams and penis diagrams. Destigmatizing images of the uterus is something that I would argue as important. I don’t want kids but I still have one of those (a uterus) and knowing what’s going on inside of it and how it works could have helped me with my dysfunctional menstrual cycle a lot earlier if people were more willing to talk about it.
Fully agree! It's so tiresome the way it gets deployed nowadays. Like, I get that it's very accessible for newbie feminists, but also, like. God it's deployed in such cruel (often totally, callously indirect) ways towards lesbians, especially transbians.
If you think "male gaze" It's only for films It's bc you don't really know what it is. At the end all of this started with arts in general, this theory It's not just for films. Gender rolls are everywhere and anywhere
Why not have both male and female gaze, but less pervy and more ranged Like also have nice looking men who don’t have to be muscular and actually muscular woman with visible biceps and abs. Edit: 621 likes? I’ll fix that.
@@DanialTarki wait, how are we defining "pervy" here? Like, I know plenty of girls and guys whose thoughts about muscley girls and feminine boys are far from pure.
Nice video essay. On the bit where you were talking about Rosy the Riveter garb, I wanted to add something because you used images of Black women, but noted how that period in U.S. history was the first time women could leave the domestic sphere. I think it's important to acknowledge that this wasn't the case for Black women, who always were forced to do manual labor because of the nature of enslavement.
I think the one issue I have with this whole concept is that, no, conditioning does have an effect on us. It has had an effect on me. It terrifies me. Living within patriarchy and being effected by it doesn't make you stupid, brain-washed, or infantilised. It's the natural consequence of being raised to exalt men. Becoming aware of that is extremely helpful. There's nothing wrong with being girly, but the idea that I've been distracted by not believing in myself and not pursuing my goals haunts me. I agree that the pop culture ideas of it are extremely reductive and immature, but not because it isn't based in some semblance of reality, rather it's just underdeveloped and surface level.
Excellent video! My perspective to add: The male gaze also impacts queer women in a unique way. When young wlw see women being objectified and that being deemed as what they should be attracted to, it can make them feel uncomfortable bc they don’t also want to be perceived in the same way. At least from personal experience, it makes realizing your identity harder because I think it adds an extra layer of shame. That’s why representation and queer media is so important in my opinion
As a bi girl, the male gaze having a weird impact is so real, it really does add a layer of shame. I remember feeling bad about myself when I was younger because it felt wrong to see beautiful women. For me personally it's a bit different, I find myself as the gazer as well as the one being gazed upon. Seeing women objectified so much and that being shown as what is attractive shaped the ways I perceived attraction which led me to start objectifying other women subconsciously. It felt extra shameful because I was literally on their side and I felt like this weird pervert spy for a long time. Seeing objectified women gave me pleasure but it also made me feel so weird about my gender since I'm literally one of them.
the purple "toy" in the first perry segment is a spine massager cane that goes by a couple of names, although possibly the music video makers did not know that either?
I think the Pink video was so mean spirited because back then, society was so cliquey. I feel like today there is more freedom to be girly, goth, or anything you like. Back then even having natural non-straight hair could get you openly dissed in public. Today it wouldn't fly. We have gone a ways since those days. I remember thinking the video was mean, but I also remember being seen, finally, because girls who didn't go for the mainstream style were just not part of the media or culture. You had to look like Pink's "stupid girls", or you were not considered a girl at all. The only response to that was to scream loud at it. It doesn't age well. And it's good to see how much has changed. But at the time, it felt like punching up into the ruling clique
Dr Luke?! Lmao, Katy Perry really thought, she would be able to achieve anything meaningful with that man at the helm?! I doubt, he has the will/range/depth for any of that. She should have just embraced the pink and sexy aesthetic and ride on the Barbie movie coattails.
Discussions like this always remind me that “political lesbianism” is, and has been a thing lol. Like, it’s aestheticizing feminism, n putting the weight on women, and making sexuality seem like a choice (literally, look up political lesbianism…). So it’s weirdly misogynistic and homophobic as well, n it’s always so cis centered too! Leave all of that shit, including pop feminism in the 2000s, imbrace intersectionality !!
A comment on the “right reasons to be girly”: I believe the right reason to be girly (or do anything) is because it’s you truly want to, including wanting to for the purposes of being conventionally sexually attractive. However, an example of a “wrong reason,” or an inauthentic choice, would be believing being girly is necessary to being attractive at all. There’s a balance in being truthful to yourself when making choices around fashion, behavior, and other methods of self expression. I’m not defending Pink’s video but I think there’s something to be said about authenticity being including in the definition of self expression (i.e. “the right reasons to be girly”)
I would add there is value to 'dress to impress', if you want to. I typically dress like I just got out of bed, but every now and then I go the extra mile and people around me are happier for it. While I think dressing Only to impress is bad, we also shouldn't be afraid of spreading joy through our actions. Maybe wear a funny hat. Maybe wear your best outfit. Considering others isn't a bad thing. Considering ONLY others can be.
"You can't aestheticize Feminism" Thank you! That is the problem right now is people think Feminism is an aesthetic to exploit instead of a state of mind and movement.
If you make fun of other women for things that are “girly” an SPOILER: you’re being mysognystic. Feminism it’s not about trying to make woman more “”””masculine””””” to be respected, it’s about advocating for rights and respect aside from how she decides to perform her gender.
growing up with a feminist mom, I was exposed heavily to 2010s feminism growing up. It was during that time when a lot of young girls were told that if they were girly or liked princess or anything like that they weren't feminist. Growing up I was the most girly sparkly pink princess ever (still am tbh) and I felt bad because I was always seeing feminists say that was bad. then i learned about the women who were embracing femininity because they just wanted to because it was fun, and that they could still be feminists. Now I know that i can be as feminist as i want and still wear pink.
This GENUINELY opened my eyes to what exactly the "male gaze" is. Because, as a guy, for so long, I was deeply confused by the definitions and examples I kept being presented, they didn't make any sense to me because it would be something like how a woman presents herself, and for me I never understood it because what people said was just regular clothes or something. But hearing you explain how feminism isn't something you can aestheticise and the male gaze had NOTHING to do with what women did put all the pieces together in my head that the male gaze was just that, a gaze. The person being objectified doesn't have to change anything, because they aren't the problem, it is the person DOING the objectifying that needs to change and adjust. And feminism isn't a tangible thing you can market, it is an ideal and a belief system, it's all internal.
It's been a while since I watched it so idk if this will be exactly what you're after, but For Harriet has a vid called "Why do Black women performers HAVE to sell sex?" which I remember as pretty excellent. I think she's touched on related topics in other vids too th-cam.com/video/UeWlySR4wBU/w-d-xo.html
This video put a lot of emphasis on men, but it shouldn't be forgotten that patriarchy, the male gaze, sexist attitudes etc. can be assumed by all kinds of people, not just cis men. A very important point of feminism is sorority, the "I'm with her" message you showed at some point in the video. Satire by definition defies interpretation, and I think the producers knew this all along. Katy Perry said that it's meant to be a satire, but she's pretty comfortable with making ambiguous statements in her songs/videos to appeal to the vast majority of the audience she can reach. My point being, the video doesn't want to be anything but a product. The satire label is to appeal not alienate feminists. It's up to you as viewer to choose to play the satire game or not. Personally I lost it at the gasoline pump part, but I recognize it's just aesthetics, there's not a point behind it beyond max reach and max engagement.
It can be assumed that a certain level of competition and hostility between women (as in: strangers) would exist even if all men were totally neutral beings. Like, humans evolved towards small groups/tribes, kinship would naturally trump any kind of gender based sympathy.
I’m not going to hide the fact that I am a man throwing his thoughts into this kind of topic, and I am obviously no expert nor do I have a deeply rooted experience in this matter. I just want to clarify that before I begin this lengthy thesis of a comment. I fully agree with Lin about what she says about the male gaze and about how ideologies shouldn’t be an aesthetic. There shouldn’t be a “correct” way to express you identity, your personality, experiences and thoughts because even people within similar circles or experiences will have a varying opinions. There is nothing wrong with conforming to a standard or breaking it or anything in between as long as the freedom of choice is available - the fact that this one model isn’t the one singular model. It annoys me how some people are bullied for using their autonomy of choice to follow a path they wanted and not the path that people are being encouraged to do. No two people will want the exact same life. Some people want a humble life and there is nobility in that. Some people are ambitious and there is admiration in that. Some people just want to find the meaning to their life and there is wonder in that. There is nothing wrong with having autonomy over your path. Having a particular ideology doesn’t make you a “good person” or mean you are following “the correct path” because there are so many flavours of the same ideology. Utilitarianism alone has at least five and feminism definitely has more than that with how messy and complicated the discussion of gender has become since feminism began. Because like all things, they are not inherently good or evil until someone applies it and you can certainly misinterpret something. To flip the coin, stoicism has been misinterpreted by many men of this age and believe it to praise the denial of emotion to hold an unconquerable heart of stone. In reality, stoicism is the acceptance of facts. You accept the fact that you will one day pass away, you accept the fact wanting people to like you alone doesn’t make people like you, you accept the fact that even when you are at your darkest hour this isn’t your final hour. Being stoic doesn’t make you a “good man”, it makes you stoic. To be good is to do good at the very least, as part of an ideology or not. People should be free to express whatever feminine traits or masculine traits they want regardless of their gender and there is nothing wrong with that. Feminism, from my understanding, fights for women to have full autonomy over themselves and the paths they wish to pursue. Whether it is the way they are viewed, depicted, understood or conceptualised, they are a fully realised human, no less than a human. So why do some people, including people who say they are feminists, feel disdain when a woman uses her autonomy the way she wants to? There is never “the correct way” once philosophy is involved, only “your authentic way”: the path you choose because you understand it is yours.
One issue is, among all these ideologies, who is getting helped out the most? If everyone spent 0 minutes a day to "dress to impress" and in a parallel universe everyone spent 10 minutes a day, where's the problem? Back in the Great Depression the bread lines were full of men in suits. What the issue was is the nature of the internet where we all hear about the bad excesses. So instead of assuming all our neighbors and friends would enjoy seeing and being around someone who puts some effort in we think behind every corner is an evil predator, or someone with a grand plan to oppress people. Simply put its paranoia. When you visit someone you care for, wear what you want, but never be afraid to step it up now and then to put a smile on their faces and forget about ideology and systems when it comes to the people you're supposed to trust.
@@Pangora2, I don’t quite understand what you mean at the beginning of your statement or what you mean when you mention the Great Depression, so I apologise is I don’t understand a point you make. I do appreciate anything else you have to say. I agree with you about paranoia. Negative experiences and emotions are stronger than positive ones. That’s just how our brains are wired (thanks evolution) but not without good reason. They linger with us, and when it comes to such things, the chances of them repeating to us or to someone else, sadly, are never zero. As a man who has a thing for style and suits, I adore the effort put into someone’s craft, whether it be makeup, jewellery, hair, material, the interactions of colours, or the design stylised. I don’t understand why some men, or some people for that matter, taint the purity of genuine love or say “she’s asking for it” when things like consent and a little thing called verbal communication exists. Compassion and kindness are the only things that make mathematical sense to me since we live in a plus sum world; needless cruelty helps no-one, not even the perpetrators in the long run. People should have the freedom to express themselves for themselves or for the sake of feeling the appearance psychologically provides. My friend has a pair of high heels that give her confidence while I have a dress shirt that makes me feel more formal. There is nothing wrong with that. As for what you said about putting ideologies aside, absolutely! I’m an over-thinker! I’m a nerd! There is no “off switch” for me! I could tell you how the architecture of Arcane contributes to the storytelling of the show or how two songs exchange dialogue with each other from the timbre to the pitch used and the message. These two bands probably don’t even know the other exists and yet the two songs fit so narratively. I could tell you how no ideology will ever be “the” answer because “the” problems are always changing with each and every single second and every single interaction in existence. But most people don’t care about that kind of stuff or that level of detail. Culture, knowledge, wisdom, and experiences should be shared but never forced. Nor should they be constantly on your mind. You should absolutely be able to set aside ideologies among those you call friends and have a good time together for the sake of having a good time.
Listen, the way the tension in my upper body loosened when I heard "you can't aesthecise feminism." Finally! Someone tells it like it is! Focusing on the image component of culture - the aesthetics - low-key reinforces hierarchy, and hierarchy are essential for capitalism. So as long as we're focused on a fixed idea of what feminism & womanhood are to the point of aesthetising them, patriarchy wins either way and both feminism & anti-feminism become channel strips on a mixing board. Because once you have an aesthetic for something, it's easily used as a signfier to represent everything we don't want. And both Katy Perry & P!nk played into this, which annoys the shit out of me.
Honesty, I’d say don’t try to be derogatory with the intend of blaming either sex at all. Most of the time male gaze, blames men, or sees men as lesser for even being sexually attracted to women, or sees male sexuality as an evil, but if you oment the inherent blame and the charged gendered blaming term of “male gaze”, neither sex has to be blamed as a sort of evil.
It's been years since I even thought about Pink's "Stupid Girls" and wow, you're right, it hasn't aged well. I'll add it to the list of "things that contributed to my not-like-other-girls phase". I'm glad I've grown beyond that because in hindsight, it wasn't good for me or other girls and women I interacted with. I didn't watch Legally Blonde until I was an adult because of how younger me judged it for being pink and (I thought at the time) antithetical to feminism. It's a shame, because I reckon I would've benefit from it.
Honestly, I don't get how people think that dressing provocatively is "asking for it" or that dressing modestly will prevent men from objectifying and sexualising women. Like, are they aware that "sexy nun" is a thing? A nun's outfit is specifically meant to be extremely modest and the exact opposite of sexy; more modest than that and you get those veil outfits that cover everything except the eyes that you see in some Muslim countries. Yet people still find a way to sexualise nuns despite their modest clothing. So, really, what's the argument here? If men really want they'll objectify basically anything, it's pointless to blame women or say that women can fight it, society should be publishing the men that can't behave.
17:56 To be clear, I think "bro, just let her work out" is what pink is actually saying in the video as well. The way I see it, Pink the artist is criticizing the character played by herself, who is jealous of the woman in the red, perceives her as getting male attention just because she has big breasts, and judges and mocks her as a result. You're right that the woman in red isn't even trying to get male attention, and I think if pink herself thought that, she would've portrayed her differently in the video. She's might still be criticizing her own character for wanting male attention though. I was unsure if you meant pink herself, or the character played by pink in your screenshots of the gym scene, sorry if I got it wrong. I got the feeling you thought pink was hating on women for having larger chests, but I think if anything, she's criticizing WANTING larger chests, so men will pay attention to you.
P!nk's song "Stupid Girls" had some truth especially when she was mentioning girls wanting to become sugar babies which is highly prevalent when it comes to Hollywood with famous men with wives young enough to be their daughters (regardless of what job they do or how old they were) but shaming girls for having "feminine" interests like wearing skirts instead of pants listening to bubblegum pop music instead of heavy metal or becoming cheerleaders at sporting events shouldn't be the proper way to criticize women going against feminism
18:41 "Though rejecting traditional femininity and what's expected of you *is* radical, that's also not the only right way to be a woman nor will it save you as a woman from the patriarchy or male gaze" Banger of a line.
"Women's World" is a pop-feminist anthem in a world that doesn't care about pop-feminist anthems anymore. Katy Perry wants another "Firework" or "Roar" but we don't. I think that's where a lot of the confused imagery of the video comes from. She knows she can't make another female empowerment anthem for the male gaze, but she also can't not, so she does it "ironically."
what frustrates me is how a man can be a blank slate, and a woman cannot. A guy's body is not inherently sexualized. A guy can be shirtless, and while there are times where that is and isn't appropriate, people don't really care. But there are so many parts of a woman's body that grab attention, that spur on judgment, that are immediately quantified and qualified to what a man thinks. When you're a woman, there's this feeling that you cannot escape being "preyed" upon. For men, the con is feeling valueless, but for women, it's that your value is being judged constantly. This is a personal story, feel free to read if you like: I was at a party with some friends of mine that I've known since I was a kid. We were up at a friend's cottage and we were all joking around having fun. We took mushrooms, swam in the water, played harmonica, had a good time. I make a little stick-guy thing, and thought it would be funny to put in the fire like some weird effigy. Then I thought it would be extra funny to grab the harmonica and play it as I did a goofy dance around the fire, like that of a gremlin. We all laughed at the absurdity of it, some people doing a little dance along with. It was really fun, and in doing something that weird I felt myself open up to them even though I was feeling detached from them around that time. Later that night though, my step brother walked up to me and started chatting with me. Started talking about how he liked how different I was acting, that it was more "chaotic" than the usual me. He went on to say that he liked my effigy dance, thought it was funny. ... But then went on to say "It was kind of demonic, but also sexy..." I think in that moment, I realized that I'll never be able to hide from how other people see me. I didn't want to look sexy. I didn't do it to turn him on. I did it because I thought it was funny. If it was his guy friend who did the same thing, all it would be is a joke. He wouldn't have some dude coming up to him to try and hit on him after. His own step brother at that. The same actions become inherently warped, because I'm a woman. They look at me and just see something they want. I cannot be a blank slate, like a man. I cannot escape being preyed upon. I've lived my life having men have their eyes on me, and make a fantasy out of me. And I've had women in my life judge and envy me, for a body I happened to be born with. My mom would see me getting hit on by my 40 year old neighbour at 13, and all she could seem to think about was how I was so much prettier than her. I've moved out of my home town. I'm meeting people that treat me the way I've always hoped to be treated. But still, that feeling always looms over me. And the people that make it come back are never far.
This comment speaks to me so badddddd. I’m a teenage girl and these guys are so manipulative. Cus it be good vibes and like a cute actual chat but then it will somehow go left. Like this one dude who wanted to flirt with me wanted to randomly say in our normal convo that I am a Oreo… I was caught off guard being black (and if you don’t know if ur a black girl being called an Oreo that means ur “whitewashed”). Somehow no it wasn’t even that it was even worse. He said I was an Oreo cus my legs… and wanting what was in between (iykyk) It’s ridiculous like a few minutes ago I was talking about food with this dude but he took food and started making comments about my body or even mentioning my big lips being around yk what…
@@AUGHHHHHBBG there's something so disappointing about having a normal conversation and then suddenly having a guy try to "flirt" in a way that's just insulting. It's surprising how clueless a lot of them are? Like I met my boyfriend not through him flirting me up and taking to me like I'm meat, we connected over lots of things outside of that and then opened up about how romantic tastes and started complimenting each other. What happened to just saying "you have beautiful eyes" or "i find your voice soothing to listen to" or even "you're so lovely to talk to I look forward to it every time" like omg it's not that hard ;-;
@@quoire proper flirting takes years to get right. There are some men who makes it look easy but as a guy, let me tell you, it comes after many, many, many failed attempts. Take assurence in knowing that we are genuinly trying.
so glad you voiced the nuanced feelings I have with the anti-pick me movement. Pick me ideology can absolutely be toxic and involve women putting each other down and of course we should strive against that and call it out; but there's nothing inevitably problematic with dressing in an attractive way because it makes you feel good, and enjoying the (non-abusive, non-dehumanizing) attention you might get from a man you're interested in or in a relationship with. I ABSOLUTELY agree women tend to fret far too much about their looks to men and if you're killing yourself with stress then put on some sweats and call it a day, because at that point it IS about internalized patriarchy. Different styles of dress will be emotionally appropriate for different women at different times in their life. If you're feeling like you've been pandering to the point of losing yourself, you probably need a break and to just let yourself be relaxed/comfortable while you recenter your sense of self. If you're dating/exploring your sexuality, it's good and healthy and normal to get dressed up and feel good and have fun with your image. Cultural waves seem to only embrace ONE of these ideas at a time, when people need more than just one philosophy to help navigate their lives. Irregardless, Perry deserves no grace for this one because she managed to dehumanize women with her video.
I agree that people should have more faith in women that we can make decisions for ourselves, I also think its important to have resources and media that actively fights against what men have been forcing onto us for like ever. Its important to have voices that say "You literally don't have to be the stereotypical girl." I also agree that women hating on other women to uplift themselves is performative feminism at best and hateful at worst. But other women saying "Hey, think a little deeper before dumbing yourself down/changing for a man" is not a bad thing whatsoever. In a patriarchal society where men are constantly telling us how to think and act and live, it is very important to have wake up calls like that to 'break women out of the matrix' for lack of better words. If a woman still decides to dumb herself down for male attention, awesome, she has made her own informed decision. There is nothing wrong with informing women of their own agency in a worldwide patriarchal system that trains us how to think a certain way from day one. Katy Perry and PINK absolutely should have rethought the "I'm better than other women because I'm a feminist/I do feminism better than them" messages as they do more harm than good, but criticizing the act of changing yourself inauthentically to gain something else is not anti-feminism. Its not about how good of a feminist you can be by "letting women think for themselves" (which we very much can and very much do), its about mental health. Changing yourself to gain anything other than self love is a mental health issue, not a feminist issue. The goal for any human being is to find self acceptance and peace, not a mold to fit into. Sometimes its better to view ourselves as humans and not just what we think a woman is.
I still think you can perfectly can call a woman an idiot, if you acknowledge all individuals as agents with their own individuality and agency that means they are not unable to make horrible and stupid decisions which should be called out regardless of their gender but their intelligence, which would include women
As a bookish, weird girl, I loved _Stupid Girls_ and the vid - it made me feel less alone. I was often frustrated with how vapid the women on TV seemed, and I also felt enormous pressure to look like these women. The song made me feel like my frustration with how I was treated and seen as a girl was legitimate. And that legitimised frustration would eventually evolve into actual feminism. So yeah it made me feel seen as a 13yo, but looking back, it's a very flawed piece of art. A generous reading might be that it has some solid ideas (e.g. girls are impacted by the roles and goals of women on TV; women are often reduced to sex objects and rewarded by men for playing into that role, etc.) but it loses sight of the actual patriarchal system that needs the most challenging and blame. And instead pits smart women/girls against "stupid girls."
Your video felt like a breath of fresh air tbh...I'm a bisexual woman interested in women more and have been the subject and the object simultaneously and these days when I look at my body in the mirror, I look at parts that I like and not what the society or men would like. It takes time to get to the point of liking parts of your body. As for the male gaze, my experience is that when I was involved in the locker room talk for the first time in my life it was very scary...The way they objectify and speak about women's parts like fresh pieces of meat disgusted me and I looked at women differently and wondered if they knew what guys or men talk about when it came to women...Women may not be aware of the way men view women which is a problem I feel and another thing is that when I came to terms with my sexuality and began openly viewing women with the male gaze, I think the male gaze can be respectful as it's appreciating a woman's physical appearance where it doesn't wear out or exhaust a woman when it comes to attention. Maybe, it's the way they perceive someone being "hot" is the problem rather than viewing someone as "hot". The reason is because I have sexualised women and felt guilty for it but is taking quick glance an issue? I have come to realise that male gaze can be respectful at times and female gaze can be disrespectful at times...Another thing that you mentioned about women dumbing themselves and acting cute is them "pandering to the male gaze" in these "satire feminist videos" but rather it's their personal choice which I totally. Imo, Women doing these kind of things aren't pandering to the male gaze but rather working around a system that's built against them. They don't fight or resist the system against them but found a smarter way to get to where they want to be. That's a sneaky yet clever move imo and putting them down isn't really going to help fight the patriarchy but rather enable it as patriarchy attempts to create a competition within women as to who is better or worse in being a woman. Instead of judging women in the way they express, there needs to be support and respect in however or whichever way a woman chooses to express herself. Thank you for reading this comment this far...
When I saw those robo legs, it gave me pause. I’m a Black Woman, and there are many of us that are built that way naturally. We are often referred to as “ Clydesdales”. She’s recreated that body shape as something that’s supposed to be humorous but sexy. I feel like SOMEONE who was apart of her creative team knew that.
Because they were robot legs? What a weird thing to see yourself in. Not everything is a reference to black women or girls or meant as a sleight to them. Sheesh.
@@citrus_sweetTwo things can be true at the same time, I don't know if you're trying to reassure this person or dismiss their opinion. I don't like it, I'm leaning towards the latter. Whenever there's something r@cist, people would rather say there must be an explanation, it can't be that. You're doing that and it's frustrating. Most times it is that because imperialism and colonization happened. R@c!sm is real and very alive. These attitudes and beliefs have evolved and become stronger while staying the same as before. This can also be a dog whistle, why can you not acknowledge that?
@@sseraphim2818 1. I'm afro-american; 2. Notice how I never disagreed with the original commenter; 3. Use more critical thinking: her outfit (white bikini, robot legs, collar) is similar to Arca's in Kick I; 4. I don't care if you don't like my comment, I don't know you.
Honestly, at this point I'm starting to think that the male gaze is more about men than it is about women, which makes sense since it was coined by a guy right? Men are the voyeur but they're also the creators, they are the ones being centered in our media, but somehow it's up to individual women and girls to fight back against it in the day to day, even when picking out an outfit or going to the gym. Women can be anything but if its connected to men/acceptance in any way then they should reconsider. Internet feminism is so strange, cause over and over again things that were originally specific and defined become muddled and individualized (??) Like Pick me girls/NLOGS were 2 different things that have become mushed together and turned into a kind of individual metric women have to reject, instead of a conversation about bullying and depiction of girls in media. This video was v refreshing to watch!!!
I made a longer comment on it, but basically I think it boils down to this: it made a lot of sense when it was written. It was a reaction to the extreme misogyny of the post 9/11 era. I don’t think it’s perfect, I don’t think she’d make it now, but back when we all had limited options for media and self expression, it was a very brave song to make.
@@haileybalmer9722 So glad to find someone else defending it. Without living through (and then internalizing) the incredibly repressive misogyny of the early 2000s and the lack of ways we as a public could articulate it, it's hard to understand how impactful it was at the time, certainly for her fans. I also think the "i'm not like other girls" commentary misses that that trope is also a male fantasy. Maybe I just want to give her more credit, but I think Pink is also making fun of herself in the music video, for of course wanting to participate too.
As flawed as that song is, its also good to acknowledge that for better and for worse, social awareness is a subject that evolves quickly and that song is merely a product of some dated beliefs that arent worth neither defence or ire.
@@broom_people I remember seeing an interview where she talked about an influence on the song being... basically, insider awareness of the music/entertainment industry at the time. Like, this idea of female artists who built (or were born into) success and then chose to keep projecting this image not as a means of self-expression which happened to align with contemporary beauty standards, but essentially as a business decision because that's what the industry wanted to see from them. And I think that part is a pretty fair issue to want to critique, because I think it's at least *approaching* an intersectional idea - that women who earn significant wealth are not necessarily helpless victims within the patriarchal system, and they do have an amount of power to uphold/enforce standards which women who have less are expected to follow. Obviously, the actual expression of it isn't very sophisticated, and I think nowadays the song itself looks like it's perpetrating this same particular sin that it may have been attempting to criticise. But it's also like... within mainstream media at the time, there wasn't really anything looking any more thoroughly at that specific issue? Mean Girls touched on something *similar* more effectively, but Mean Girls didn't have as much to say about industry figures perpetuating standards on a mass-media scale cause its focus was different. But as far as I'm aware, that industry element was an important aspect of the idea for Stupid Girls.
The male gaze is, ultimately, about power. That's why it doesn't matter what you do or what you wear. Men will still objectify you, because it's all about proving that they have power. It's why doing whatever you want, because you want to, is what frustrates misogynists the most. It takes the power they want so badly away from them. It's so easy to get caught in these mental gymnastics, trying to figure out how to live for or not for other people, it's no wonder so many women struggle as adults to figure out how to live for themselves. If they're not hurting anyone, just let people live. We can't read people's minds. We don't know why they live the way they do. If they're happy, just let them be. If you're reading this, I hope you're able to find happiness too.
She hit the nail on the head in the beginning of the video. Just be yourself regardless of how masculine or feminine it may seem because the truth is there really is no such thing as the male gaze. Dudes are attracted to women, period, there is no complex theory to be considered it just is what it is so your best course of action is to not worry about that and live your life.
18:23 I feel like I am personally entitled to massive financial compensation from whoever thought putting that toothbrush scene in the music video was a good idea, like I have over a decade of very expensive therapy bills.
The reason why I never bought into what Pink was saying in "Stupid Girls" was like, OK, you made a video on how girls shouldn't be so much into make-up and all that, and what did she make after the video came out? A Cover Girl ad.
The 2000s were brutal, so Pink's song felt kind to hear. In 2024 it definitely does ring differently, but the media isn't as toxic to tweens/teens & young women as it was back then, so it would change the way you percieve it I guess.
Unironically as a bisexual woman who has an interest in things like animal psychology, _this screams mate gaurding behaviors._ People forget humans are animals too, just we can rise above our base desires and course correct our lives for the long run. And the same way animals have a habit of finding ways to socially ostracize and attack those they see as competition, so do people. It's not a logical/rational thought out behavior as much as just the result of sexually reproducing as a species. Patriarchy is a system that abuses that tendency, _BUT I don't think it invented it._ This is one of those situations where honestly as apes it MAKES SENSE just for there to be behaviors like that REGARDLESS cultural of socialization. *_But I also feel like we can choose to just not._* A LOT of behaviors are "natural" for animals, that doesn't mean we as humans with sapience have to partake tho. Edit: BASICALLY I think this isn't inherently linked to patriarchy as much as I think Patriarchy likes to fuel it/feed off of it. It makes sense from a social standpoint why a heterosexual ape would be at odds with their "competition" as it's an evolved trait. *_But we can also learn to move past biases like that and THAT is what makes us human._*
You know, i think it's mainly commentary on corporate feminism like the whole "we don't care about the male gaze, but really we do" is criticism on how even all the clothes and makeup up that are marketed to women is based around the male gaze and is defended as "our choice" when we internalize a ton of misogyny to want to look that way. Our sexual 'liberation' is something that's sold to us as an item but not accepted when we choose to be intimate with a partner. The uterus is how these corporations lump all afabs as women and based womanhood on having a uterus
I feel like every critique here makes sense but also it's kind of missing the forest for the trees? These are all products. It's studio pop music, it's music videos - so yes, it's going to be about aesthetics and commodifying things. These aren't essays they're literally products made by large companies Things made by and for very large groups of people are almost never going to be nuanced or well-measured.
I think an underlying issue is that there aren't as robust a variety of depictions of women, hampering perspectives of young people. It's starting to change as it has in the recent past, but critiquing women for adopting or emulating the few archtypes they're pressired into internalizing is more of a systemic issue. It's like calling a female pro gamer team bad compared to the male counterparts. There just hasn't been enough change in the time frame for mature female talent pools to develop. This puts more of a burden on the few traditionally sanctioned roles women have been given in pop culture.
It doesn't help that women get harassed so much in the gaming scene. It's hard to be motivated to grind everyday to be pro when you're constantly harassed by gamer bros who put their entire masculine identity in the fact that they're decent at a shooting game and can't handle seeing a woman better than them. There are plenty of women who are in the top ranks of competitive games, but few push to go pro.
@@NihongoWakannai And this happens in many fields. Men are quick to say it's the women who refuse to advance in male-dominated areas, but they conveniently leave out just how vicious they are against women entering said areas. They conveniently leave out how rough and offensive they are to new women compared to new men. Its all about blaming women.
I mean there's an episode of American Idol where she assaulted an auditioning contestant who wanted to wait before marriage & the whole set was complicit
i love your argument against aestheticizing feminism. its something i see applicable to decolonizing where im continuously bothered by people relying on aesthetics when these issues are ultimately about power and agency.
One of those items is a theracane, which is not a sex toy it's just a thing therapists and people use to treat knots in muscles. I know because I literally just bought one earlier this week. An easy mistake though because it looks really weird.
I think the bigger point about “acting dumber or more submissive than they are” issue is the reason behind putting on that act. I also don’t think that women who aren’t feminist get a pass on criticism because they are women. On that point, it is important to clarify that not being a “girl boss” doesn’t mean not a feminist. If we’re talking about truly anti-feminist women there are a few reasons why it isn’t a matter of live and let live. Mainly, anti-feminist rhetoric is regressive and genuinely harmful and allowing it to spread is bad regardless of if other women are saying it. Secondly, not all of the women who identify as anti-feminist are actually making that choice. There are women in religious communities who have been told they have been designed for one purpose only and have no choice but to serve that purpose. It’s healthy to at least challenge that notion so they can actually make an empowered decision on what they *want*. I do agree that the reaction shouldn’t be “you’re just stupid” because that’s not even an argument let alone not convincing. I also do think that feminism online does end up going in circles about minute details about how to “correctly” subvert patriarchal ideals when the ideals are set up to be lose-lose. I just think that there’s a middle ground between “there’s only one way to be a feminist” and “feminism is not criticizing women ever” which is unfortunately the two options I mainly see presented.
The system is the problem not the women who live in it. Even the media because look at the way feminism is represented, feminists are not all purple haired manhaters, I mean some are and thats their right lol. Feminism is for all women, it means that we are flawed,people who learn and change just like men. I just became a subscriber,I appreciate the nuance and research and actual thought put into this.
18:15min.s - You had me until you showed your lack of sympathy for Paris Hilton, despite the fact that she was secsually' assaulted in residential treatment facilities-something that led her to testify before Congress, just recently, and fight to help other foster children in such facilities (like I was). Just because she was rich does not mean that her parents didn't stash-'her'-away without any rights inside of a residential facility where she was assaulted on a daily basis. Does she still not deserve sympathy? That is hideous.
Thank you letting me know about this. I didnt know about this while I was making the video so thanks for letting me know that’s my own fault and I’m sorry I didn’t include this in the video or in my perspective
@@CheyenneLin, I thank you for reconsidering. (I'd no idea your name is Lin too.)
paris hilton is a horrible human being
paris hilton is really horrible. the way she’s treated other women throughout her career is abhorrent. just because she’s traumatized doesn’t mean she gets a free pass.
@@coolchameleon21, so, was this the revocation of that free pass-her secsual' assault? Please, do tell...
At the conclusion (prelude and interlude) of whatever you're saying', she still is a woman who was victimized by secsual' assault because of the pure fact that she was a vulnerable woman. In-step with the theme of this very video that's focusing upon femininity, feminism itself, and perpetuation of the protection of women and pummeling of the patriarchy, it would behoove those of this ilk to have 'across the board' politics that don't cease the moment they encounter a person of another way of life or character. I'll be honest and admit that I do not know of any ways that she has dehumanized or disparaged other women because I was a child when those things are alleged to have happened ('94). I do know that nothing I posited in my comment makes what you just posited a valid response as if it somehow negates what I put forth. It almost sounds as if you're advocating that we should not care because of her past. For juxtaposition, as a Black woman, I do not believe racists deserve to be repad'-do you?
I don’t think Katy Perry’s video is satire. It feels more like they were trying to prop up a very average song with average lyrics by using some mild feminist imagery which probably would’ve worked in the early 2010’s. But I don’t see how she could try to make a “feminist anthem” while partnering with Dr.Luke.
She says it’s satire but if felt like a cop out lol
@@ninanano it was so shit I actually looked at the credits and it was mostly men in production which is like the final undermining of what she said her message is
When I heard that name I laughed out loud. Fucking shameless.
@@ninananoOh 100%. People loooove using Fancy Words like satire, subversion, deconstruction, etc. bc they think we're so stupid that they make the slop they're selling sound smart that we'll respect them and suddenly be on board. In reality it just makes them look stupid because they never use those terms correctly, and it makes us react like how we're doing now.
As a white cis male my opinion is very important, and I think Katy Perry isn't going far enough. Women should stand up to the patriarchy, by going back to the kitchen and being home makers ironically! That'll show them for sure!
Disclaimer: this is meant sarcastically, and my own opinion is opposite of everything above.
Its always the male gaze but never the male gays
As a straight man, I actually approve
Its both, its everyone, its social currency, its sad
Yeah, they need to see some beefcake!
Nice job taking feminism and making it about men again 👍
Brother respectfully shut up@johnnylight0
I also find as a gay man a lot of other gay men treat conventionally attractive straight women as props even if that's just diva worship its still only seeing women as having worth if they're conventionally pretty
Yeah I think a lot of celeb women feel pressured to constantly "serve" for both the girls and the gays.
THIS! Thank you for saying it!
@@roniemacaroni864 fr. gay men are often extremely misogynistic but it’s almost always brushed off as being unserious or a joke
I don’t think I get what you’re saying. You can value someone for their beauty clothing make up and also value their intelligence or creativity. You can be ugly and still be valued for a million other things.
@nooneproductions1556 "Ugly" women are not lifted up in the same way by any community. They just aren't. There is HUGE emphasis on looks.
It's wild to me that Katy Perry of all people is making fun of women who "appeal to the male gaze by sexualizing themselves and yet think they're feminist" when she has been dressing herself in a "sexy" way for basically her entire career. There's nothing wrong with her dressing sexy or her wanting to attract men, but it's hypocritical for her to make fun of other women for doing the same or for claiming that they're "not real feminists".
I still avoid that music video of her naked in that purple cloud. It’s not a cute look. She’s a total hypocrite.
Yeah, if she dressed the way she did but was open about the pressures on women in media to look a certain way/said she basically needs to look hot in order to exist as a female celeb, that’s valid. But empowerment -/- dressing sexy 24/7 and constantly objectifying yourself, and I hate that so much of female-centered pop pretends it is.
Yeah she is pretty hypocrite like some female celebrities that will everything to be more popular 🤦♀️
Just wearing something sexy doenst mean you want to attract men!!
Katy Perry has sold sex her whole career
Idk if your satire is pretty much indistinguishable from what its trying to critique I think you might be doing something wrong
Heck, I'd go as far as to say that *no* satire can escape this particular fate. That would have to require literally everyone to engage with media beyond a surface level, and for from everyone has the energy and/or willingness to do just that. Any artist that aims to change the minds of their audiences, ought to potently present a viable alternative to what already exists, rather than simply draw a caricature of what already exists and then point and laugh at it
That's why I was wary of the whole "let girls be stupid" "I'm a 25 year old teenage girl" or anything infantilizing of that nature but i got told I was being a hater and "God forbid women have any fun 🙄" lol
It reminds me of the whole artisanal millennial hipster thing where the did things " ironically ". You're still doing the damn thing no matter what you label it.
The standard I hold for good satire is that anybody interpreting it at face value be able to be proven wrong through using purely the source material itself. If it has to be explained and excused afterwards then it’s bad satire, but it might still be a good/interesting/valuable/provocative point of discussion. It’s misleading to couch these things as satire, however.
@@sarahwilliams4092and honestly if you do something ironically, eventually you do start to like the thing you’re doing. Because what is the point of doing it after the first time, if only for irony?
the thing is, feminism is NOT an identity label, it’s a political ideology and this people should really get that through their heads.
Yeah , pepole should act like leftists rather than describing themselves as such
There is suuuuuch a long trend of 2010s popstars announcing feminist intent while being misogynistic (Marina’s “Girls” comes to mind). But it’s good to note that these songs are also really disconnected from Black feminism specifically. Even thinking about the Rosie the Riveter symbol, yeah she’s a feminist icon who marks a change in gendered power, but…which women were able to not work and survive before the 1930s? It was middle-/upper-class married white women. Women of color and working-class women were already holding jobs, and many of them became the primary breadwinner for their families during The Great Depression, because their bosses didn’t fire them since they were cheap labor. Lesbians who couldn’t have a household of their own had to work multiple jobs to stay alive. And who saw economic gain after the war? It wasn’t the Japanese women who were imprisoned and had their property stolen. It wasn’t the Black women who had their jobs given to whites women. It was the white women who replaced them.
Social progress is only judged by where white women stand and moralizations about destructive cultural movements are almost always in response to white women engaging with or appropriating signifiers of Black womanhood (the demonization of plastic surgery, for example). In this vein of music, very rarely are Black and brown women even considered or are injustices like the fact that Black women are one of the most educated populations in the US and the least paid populations brought up in girl-boss feminism.
excellent excellent excellent comment. 100%
I dont think you understand marina's girls like you think you do but ok
@@Traveleronthelamb Marina recently said she wasn't trying to make a "feminist anthem" with Girls. She was young and was being misogynistic without realizing it. If that's what you mean about "not understanding it"
They never talk about feminism as it relates to marginalized people, which if frustrating. Like, we are really that much of an afterthought that we can’t be included in the broader discussion by default and not a separate category? Each piece of it matters in having a well rounded discussion. If they really wanted to get into the weeds of it, they’ll do the work. This video was about white women, which is a frequent choice when people make these kinds of videos.
@@moonisontheroof aw i always took it as commentary on female socialization so i love that song 💔 but its good she admitted that
Dude thank you so much for mentioning some women don't have uterus. I had mine removed because of a surprise tumor and ever since I've been really aware of how focused we are on highlighting the uterus as being the thing that "makes us women" or it's how to bring us together as a group. I don't have a uterus anymore, so I'm not included?
I really appreciate you saying that and validating me as a woman - even without my uterus
If you were born a women. Even without utero. You are a women. But there is some people today that are men but they claim to be "women without utero"
@@cristalblackstar8177 there are also hermaphroditic people that have both uterus and penis so I just don't get the strict definition that the organs = the gender identification of the person. Theres always an exception to the rule
@@jerpica.d6735 Except that "hermaphroditic people" don't have two functional sexual organs. They can't impregnate someone and get pregnant themselves. They're just a man/woman with an error.
@@cristalblackstar8177 Cry about it
@@cristalblackstar8177not the transphobia 🤢
About the point of unabashedly being yourself, it says something that any woman who lives for herself will piss off sexist men. Women who are super feminine and/or monetize their sexuality will get lots of flack online, even if *in theory* that seems to be aligning with the male gaze, because misogynist men want women who exist *for them*. They'll find any woman with her own thoughts, feelings and preferences to be a 'bad' woman.
Thank you! Exactly this. It's part of the reason I hate a lot of the "makeup is self expression vs. makeup is just a tool of the patriarchy" type discussions, because at the end of the day, in the context of feminism, _it was never about the makeup._ It's the fact that women, fems, or people perceived fem, are wearing it. It's about anything associated with feminity being demeaned and demonized by the patriarchy, regardless of what it is.
The women who don't wear makeup get called "lazy, unkempt, dirty" and are treated like crap for "not being attractive" or ignored, the women who do wear it (either for themselves or for the purpose of appealing to men) get called "vapid, try hards, deceitful, shallow" and get treated like crap by being objectified. There's no winning because the system is set up to be fems < men, the rhetoric surrounding it are just shallow excuses to justify that core belief of patriarchy. There isn't logic to it, and you can't logic your way around it.
Someone dumping on femininity or distancing themselves from it or acting like they're "above it" isn't going to dismantle or get someone treated better under patriarchy for the same reasons that women who fully lean into the patriarchal ideal don't get treated any better. It's not about what you're doing, what you're wearing. If we woke up tomorrow and suddenly construction was considered feminine or "women's work" the patriarchy would devalue and demean it all the same. The point shouldn't be "If you wear makeup you're contributing to and upholding the patriarchy" it should be "why should someone's choice to wear makeup or not determine how much of a person they're treated as, and why is that level of 'personhood' always placed _below_ men regardless?"
People should be allowed to exist and present themselves in whatever way makes them feel comfortable. Policing how women and fems present themselves from the opposite direction isn't dismantling the patriarchy, it's just reinforcing rigid gender roles in a different way. Someone trying to beat the game by using the patriarchy's rulebook against them doesn't really achieve anything, because they don't actually believe in their own rules, they made them up so they could boss you around.
Lizzy, I love how you keep bashing men, but we know that women are the worst misogynists towards each other. For example, I don't care that you do sex work, but I reserve the right to not be attracted to you or engage with you. And yes, we should call out women who sexualise themselves on platforms that are accessible to minors.
Monetizing your sexuality does often feed back into the male gaze, though, and trying to do it purely for yourself is as difficult as assessing why you feel a draw towards conforming to a particular idea of womanhood. Instead of shaming women for fitting the male gaze it’s better to shame men for assuming that everything is done for their benefit!
@@katfujioka212 "it’s better to shame men for assuming that everything is done for their benefit!" Why is it better?
If you're monetising your sexuality, it benefits both people. One offers a service and the other pays for that service. However, when we reach a level of entitlement is it when it becomes toxic. For example women feeling entitled to a man's money (dating, going on vacation, divorce, etc.) or men throwing money at random women thinking they'll get naked.
Let's not forget that women have their ideals for men as well and that if the man doesn't fit that image, he has no chance with her.
I've said it for years: Gender roles are only for men. Women can do whatever the fuck they want and still receive applause.
Flak doesn't have a C. Its a German word.
To be fair/honest I don't really like Katy Perry anyway, but it does feel especially funny that she of all people is making fun of a type of feminist/woman when you look back on her career. There's a lot of cultural appropriation, skimpy costumes, and even a song (I Kissed A Girl) that makes queer women kind of a spectacle. I'm not sure where she's coming from here. As for Pink, I can admit I liked the song Stupid Girls for a bit when I was younger, but as I got older I realized it was flawed.
'I Kissed A Girl' is probably why Katy didn't feature any lesbians in her new music video; she probably believes homosexuality is only genuine when it's between two men, whereas anything between two women has to be fake and existing for the sake of entertaining straight men
Stupid Girls feels like it's Pink working through some stuff to some extent, whereas Katy Perry's song is way more performative feeling (and as you say, this isn't a new thing)
@@AnarchistArtificer Yeah...A charitable interpretation of Stupid Girls is that Pink was uncomfortable with the way she was being treated in the music and entertainment industry and with the expectations being put on her...but it manifested in this flawed way.
By extension, I think a lot of NLOG and other "internalized misogyny" behavior can be interpreted this way - girls/women being uncomfortable with being objectified, but taking it out on the women being objectified rather than the men doing the objectifying. It doesn't make it okay, but I can see why it happens.
@@360shadowmoon I know that was actually a big reason behind it. she's mentioned it in interviews way back then, she also didn't like some of the comments Christina and Britney had made about her offhandedly when asked about her in interviews. Christina especially got flack for a lot of her interviews back in the day. She caught a diss from Eminem for her interview where she's all giggling and laughing as she talks about his outrage music and then goes on to talk about how cute he is.
@@ldragon8480 Tbf, most of the responses Britney in particular made abt her were due to what P!nk had said about her in interviews/to the press.
She mentioned once an incident in which P!nk sent her flowers but then turned around to talk to media about how she feels abt Britney's "lack of authenticity" & how she's always smiling. & then Britney made the point that criticizing her for her image & how she presents herself while doing the same things is hypocritical.
She rarely talked abt her & it was mostly praise when she did. She usually just pointed out the double standards between her & her peers when it was brought up to her.
it kills me that nobody knows what feminism is. “feminism” isn’t women having blue hair or women paying for first date it’s about politically pushing for equal LEGAL RIGHTS for EVERYONE. it reeks of internet-brain when someone says they’re not a feminist because they like cooking or love pink. how dare you speak on a movement you don’t even care to know the purpose of?
maybe read a book by an actual feminist & stop getting political education on tiktok’s by cringy teens talking out their ass.
🎯🎯🎯
u ate!! Actual feminist literature is MILES above internet sound bites that can't even fully gather what they're trying to say. reading real books changed the way i talked about feminism and made me feel much more equipped to explain what bothers me about katy perrys video and the like
This the legacy of Choice Feminism™, a narrow, individualistic interpretation of the movement. Feminism is about the emancipation of women in all spheres, not about individual choices (which are not made in a vacuum.)
Blame the internet. Feminists have a bad rep on the internet because a few internet feminists single out women who enjoy things like cooking, cleaning, or other feminine hobbies as "pick-me girls." The women who DO enjoy these things or are in a more traditional role see this and think, "I guess I'm not a Feminist then."
As a femimist myself with a pretty basic, but broad knowledge and understanding of feminist history around the world (especially Japan's feminism duality), I do think feminism is not quite as definable as we like to think it is. Much like any social movement, feminists within the movement usually have a broad range of values and beliefs about what a feminist society should look like. We often come together on broad topics like women having the right to do/wear/be/etc. something, but then have splits in other areas, like what we think "equality of the sexes" looks like, whether men should be allowed to campaign alongside us, the rights/protections/accomodations trans women should or shouldn't have as women with different bodies from cis women (or in some cases, there are feminists who don't believe trans women are women), whether we see sex as oppressive or empowering to women, etc.
I think gatekeeping the movement is bad, not just because it has the potential to exclude future important players that can further equality as a whole, but also because it sanitizes the complicated, often problematic past and present of the movement. Maybe we're all just afraid to associate ourselves with people we find to be fundamentally different from us lest it be harmful to our own image. Either way, I just don't care much for the _"actual feminists"_ framing of other feminists over their beliefs. We can still criticize those beliefs without trying to define them out of existence.
IMO something we should accept is that not every action of ours is going to be a feminist one, no matter how powerful and good you feel doing it. I see this pop up in feminist discourse all the time, that every action a woman chooses to do is good and feminist and that feminism is all about choice, which isn't true. Some actions can and do benefit the existing system (sometimes unintentionally) and its disingenuous to claim otherwise. That said, we also need to remember that its not a moral failure to do something because it is expected of you, or because you feel accepted doing it.
It’s crazy how all this philosophizing is trying to explain to morons why they shouldn’t be a dick.
Thank you - what I took away from this is there is nothing wrong with dressing to feel attractive but still want to be seen as whole person not just potentially fuckable and it's also okay to have days when you can't be arsed and still don't want to be judged as something less fuckable
Like dressing to look nice. Even in my school days I was constantly disappointed with my male peers. To my peers, popular or nerds, everyone wore a T-shirt with something printed on it. Go outside right now and men and boys dress indistinguishably from each other. One day I dressed up in a half decent suit and simply went out. Heads were turning, people were asking me whats up. Everyone brightened up. And that's as a guy. People may have "expected" me to dress better without my consent, but was it really so bad to do so? Everyone was happier. I felt better, the people I encountered felt better.
I can understand everyone can wear sweatpants and pajamas everywhere, and I do that too sometimes. We portray that as freedom, and in a way it is. But if you limit yourself and never "dress to impress" are you really free? Or have people traded one oppressor for another? Freedom also means some people make the bad calls sometimes, out of defiance or error.
It is a moral failure to be a feminist though.
@@Pangora2I think it has a lot more to do with how you view what people are doing than what people actually do. Because a lot of times we judge people for what they're wearing and then don't want others to do the same to us. Wearing confortable clothes doesn't have to be viewed as bad and dressing in a more eye caching way shouldn't be viewed as good. It should just be... alright. This person likes long dresses? Alright. This person likes short skirts? Alright. The day we stop overthinking everything is when we will be truly free.
You are at the top of your game Cheyenne you popped off w this one!! I would challenge the idea that there's no "right way to be a feminist", see Lily Alexandre's video on girlboss feminism. It benefits us to be sure to focus on patriarchy, intersectionality, and anti-capitalism as feminist values. At the same time I do agree that we shouldn't police other women about it. It's tough, and nuanced.
I personally feel like framing of a "right way to be a feminist" has its flaws in that it tries to sanitize the real history of feminism, which is and was a historically complicated movement with lots of individual moving partsーsome good, some bad, some grey, and some of everything. Many prominent feminists who played a crucial role in the sufferagette movement and who we owe a lot to in the creation of modern feminism were also racist and excluded black women. Do we suddenly say they were "doing feminism wrong"? We can and should criticize problems in the movement, but I think it's better to shed black-and-white notions of "right" and "wrong" in order to get at the complexities of the movement and the individuals inside it. There are as many ways of being a feminist as there are people who call themselves "feminist". That's how all social movements work, and why movements change so much over time.
The idea that there's no right way to be a feminist is just a silent nod to the numerous Valerie Solanas wannabes.
@@JunosenseiThis comment needs to be everywhere!
i’m sure by this point most people that use the term “male gaze” don’t even know what it means. some makeup videos on tt are like “eyeliner for the male gaze vs the female gaze” bruh i’m sorry but💀💀💀
Yeah at this point I’m pretty sure they just mean « to be attractive to men » and « to be attractive to women »
Yeah i don't think its satire at all... That's just an excuse for women to still look like how people want
Let's bear in mind that music videos are often written and directed by cis/het men, according to their cultural and personal tastes, so the musicians and dancers just wear what they are told and paid to wear on camera. "Just following orders" doesn't excuse war crimes, but it does excuse "dirty dancing" in "slutty" costumes, lol!
Excuse, as if they need one? i think you are missing the very point of the video you commented on (not katy perrys, Cheyenne Lin's)
@@darlalathan6143 true but it also does mean, whether the artist is at fault or not, that the song is a failure in what it intended to do.
Yeah, it bothers me that the "woman's world" part of the music video still shows a lot of almost-naked women. It's funny, because by now you'd think people would have realized that women value aesthetics beyond a nude body. Some cute or classy fashion would have been more preferable to something like that. Even lesbians aren't that obsessed with wanting to see a naked woman, because they care about the woman herself outside of sex appeal. Only creepy straight guys that sexualize every woman they see will be enticed by a woman in a bikini, so why do that in a video that is supposed to be doing to opposite?
I think the biggest problem is that we’re all looking to millionaires, disconnected from the average reality of being a person in society, to make social and political commentary about things that don’t affect them in the same way as it affects the rest of us.
Of course ALL women deal with misogyny. But, like Cheyenne said, not all women are on all women’s “side.” And I personally feel like most women in pop culture fall under that category. You don’t become as popular as Taylor Swift (just an example) in a patriarchal society, without exploiting themselves and other women.
100% this has been a huge part of the problem that's not talked about nearly enough --it probably takes more nuance than people want to use. But I think this is largely why people became skeptical of Me Too instead of furthering the conversation. It was only public figures and celebrities, all rich and tucked away, which immediately evokes privilege and politics that obfuscate the issue
Regarding Pink’s “Stupid Girl”, I’m of a mixed opinion. I have to think she wouldn’t make that song and video now, but at the time, that was brave. The early 2000’s was a time of rampant conformity bright on by people’s reaction to 9/11, and part of that conformity was an outgrowth of misogyny. It’s bad now, but it was so so so much worse then. You were expected to be thin, blonde, white but tanned, and any deviation from that got a lot of pushback. There was no online shopping, Indy designers were for rich people only, so unless you were thrifting your clothes, your only options were extreme low rise jeans that you were supposed to wear with a thong pulled all the way up. Remember the Whale Tail? Women were expected to be as porny as possible or face open ridicule from all corners. Be a bimbo or be nothing was the message of the day. That’s what Pink was pushing back against. I think it was refreshing and needed at the time.
Thank you had the same exact thought! Unfortunately many parts of this video seemed a little ill-informed (not taking the media landscape of the time under consideration, the Paris Hilton drive-by and some other tidbits), I wonder how old this creator is because it feels like a generational gap maybe :D
I agree 100%
Agreed! I feel without context of the times, Pink's "Stupid Girl" video can be misconstrued as a "pick me" anthem. However, I was there in the 2010's with my brown skin and black hair saying "nope!" to conforming.
Yeah I have complicated feelings about it for similar reasons. At the time it felt like “THANK YOU I don’t want to be Paris Hilton and I don’t understand why dumb and blonde is apparently the only way to be acceptably feminine.” But yeah, in retrospect, it’s misplaced anger, because the underlying cultural forces that drive that, and even the actual powerful men enforcing it, are invisible, and Paris and Nicole were ubiquitous. I ended up putting girls down who were probably equally frustrated and confused by that misogyny and dealing with it in their own way, and I developed a deep insecurity about any aspects of my own personality that seemed to align with that “stupid girls” presentation - and ultimately how different was that from just hating femininity? It has felt good recently to let myself be a little dramatic and frivolous, to love pink and glitter, to sometimes just want to wear skimpy outfits and dance at the club to music whose lyrics I could have written when I was 12. I don’t have to be the first woman president to matter. I’m allowed to be a little stupid sometimes.
All of which is to say, Stupid Girls could have done a lot better, but Pink was working with what she had then, and it felt good to have someone sing what I was feeling. I just wish none of us, Pink included, had to be so limited in our thinking back then.
It wasn't brave at all. It used to be so cool to hate on women like Britney spears and Jessica Simpson.. She was just being 'not like other girl' while also dancing sexy next to 50 cent in the video 😅
Ironically feminism does not care whether were hyper feminine or not, assuming that our appearance is meant to cater to the male gaze, goes against the main reason to feminism. It enables that "what was she wearing" attitude, that we are still trying to consider their approval instead of being allowed to embrace ourselves.
THIS
People thinking "male gaze" is just literally a man gazing at a woman because she's attractive is fucking sending me ngl
still watching but cannot get over her claiming feminism while voluntarily working with dr. luke
She's a Republican voters and failed Christian rock artist who queerbaited her way to Success
Right? Girl. We all know the truth about Dr. Luke. Walking around in a bikini top and robot leggings isn’t going to make us forget.
This whole expressing gender identity thing is really annoying. Why can't I just wear clothes without having to express a gender identity?
because we live in a society. gender expression is required for participation in social life. the gag is, we don’t get to choose this; it’s about how we are perceived and how that in itself informs the way we perceive ourselves
@@mooapologistmmm this comment is good
YOU can, however as ⬆️ said there's also the external dynamic. You can do, say,be whatever but others are going to have their perceptions of you. The best thing you can do is not care. Which, this whole mess of people right now can't seem to do.
You think you just fell out of a coconut tree??? You exist in the context!
@@mooapologist We have to dismantle this a bit and I hope you enlighten me, an (apparently by societal norms) bisexual latin male that has explored his gender and identity flux. This is a long post, so sorry in advance.
Is gender needed though? Unless you are practicing individual segregation for what you deem uncomfortable, well, yeah, but in that sense, then cis people are on the right to call out "the absurd of gender identity", since they be doing the same thing: enclosing themselves on a societal metagroup.
Taking that into consideration, is gender needed for society as in pure social circle? Because that would mean you need to get rid of people that observe you from a place of sovereign and misgender; which is basically what has been going on and pointed by trans folks since dawn. Which in turn should free you from adjusting to "a" gender. Society as a market place? We live in a capitalistic socioeconomical landscape. You can't be free of will and identity while on the workplace (since it's commonly not profitable) and laws have been mitigating discrimination more and more, slow and steady, but it still doesn't require you to engage with others through gendering eyes. Society as in necessary networks to ensure the need of reach and intimacy, be it friendship or, idk, reproduction? Get rid of people that suck. Society as in a digital space? That's a hella lot more complicated.
The only front that I personally see that gender is useful is from a strictly aesthetical beholder, which is society as a cultural amalgam; be it, relating your self with your performance and fitting in a certain community. Which clashes with any of the distinct layers of, lets call it, commonfolk society anyway and once again means "removing undesirable people from your inner circle". Full Moon.
So, we either give in to societal pressure of gendering actions, thoughts and patterns, mindframes and frameworks to try relating to a established expectation from a certain community, or conform to what society as a whole expects us to from heterenormativity? At that point I thought to myself... Why not just study ourselves, our learnt behaviors, mind peace with them (or make an effort to leave them behind) and get rid of gender? Why not be "you" instead of "this"?
...Unless we are truly actually fucked and gendering comes to no fruition for people that haven't really explored their sexuality, or never needed to have an inner dialogue, or suffered trauma, or were born neurodivergent, so our sociocultural norms and expectations are engrained and will be, no matter what, til centuries of metropoli destruction. Worse, if there ever was fault on neoliberalism and it was actually always the need of creating needs to maintain the marketability of human beings and their bodies, and their sensibilities around their bodies. If that's true, then I'll just feel comfortable with Me, and forget I have a cock between my legs and my sex tempts to be homicidal and suicidal. It wouldn't matter anyway.
It doesn't matter that this was satire. The fact that she produced this song with DR FUCKING LUKE OF ALL PEOPLE makes her new song ironic in the worst way possible
I remember when I was a very young girl watching the Pink video. At that time, I felt like I HAD to grow up to look like that and pretend to be stupid/bad at school, following that behavior and aesthetic. An adult male once told me, “Men won't date you when you waste your time trying to be smart.”
Pink's video made me think “Oh wow, there is more than one path. All women can do all of these things, including being stupid, being hot for men, or being manly themselves or car washers.” I can't say I thought critically beyond that, but this video felt like a pop culture stepping stone to the next step forward.
I am actually very glad that the pink video hasn't aged well… in my brain it feels like we are moving forward then, you know? History should be critically judged with modern eyes, so if I saw this today (like Katy Perry's), I don't think it would be pushing progress forward.
I understand why you thought of naming this video ‘you can’t aestheticize feminism’
Can't polish a turd ?
I think the issue with Katy Perry is that she still lavks introspection. Like I remember that Pink used to be kind of pick me, but what changed in her "newer" music is that she started focusing on her own flaws and her own involvement of it. Katy just wants to make vague, grand gestures of feminism or cosummerism without ever even aknowledging her own involvement of it. It's like she refuses to be real about that. Kesha also had her evolution on that whole topic as well. But Katy Perry still doesnt know how to do that.
Wasn't there also that thing where she secksually harrassed a guy? If she thinks that abusing your position of power is okay as soon as the genders are flipped it wouldn't be that much of a shocker that her understanding of Feminism doesn't go very deep.
@@Alias_Anybodyyep! She forced a boy to kiss her on national television. When I say boy, I mean it. He’d never been kissed, he was a minor, and he said later that it was uncomfortable and kind of scary. And that was just what happened on camera, what do you think she does to her fans when the cameras aren’t rolling?
So when you find out that she made whatever this is with Dr. Luke, a man who *allegedly* 🙄assaulted Kesha, it makes me feel and think a certain way…
"...You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman." Margaret Atwood is so incredibly insightful. This is something that my wife and I come back to so often: even when I actually do everything right to be supportive and let her take the lead (this is not as often as it should be, even though I try), she still has a lifetime of conditioning tangled in with her own desires for our life, her career, and the way that we raise our children. It's so exhausting for her to try to distinguish between what she actually wants vs what she has been taught to want, and I can't add my voice without making it worse.
Maybe Atwood's statement puts too much pressure on women to think in a standardized conformist version of feminism, rather than interpreting their own way?
@@darlalathan6143 I didn't get the impression that Atwood was prescribing a solution so much as describing the nature of the problem.
Jesus as if… just knowing what you want is that complicated
@@books2438 You'd be surprised
@@geministrial950 No y’all just weak
Made me think that feminism shouldn’t be co-opted by…. CAPITALISM
The Pink part is interesting but it was also during a time in which the hate towards the women in tabloid magazines was rampant… we all were convinced to hate those kinds of women… which is pretty horrible to look at retroactively. I remember “hating THOSE women… it was a whole paradigm of the 2000’s
This was a great video. I hate being told what to do as a woman. I don't want to play football, I've worked at a warehouse, i like getting my nails done, and i never shave anywhere. But all of these decisions have made me think about my gender and what it means to be a woman. I feel like no matter what i do i end up thinking about what men will think about it. Not just ones im attracted to but ones i specifically DON'T want to attract. Its still male centered and I'm slowly getting to a point where i can make decisions based on what i want and not care what anyone (even women who hate women) think about it.
Hold up, did Perry make a feminist song with dr. "I sexually abuse teenagers" Luke????
About Pink: do you have any idea of how many girls around me wanted to do ps and get a big chest, had eating disorders to get disturbingly thin just like those models and celebrities they saw on magazines, and who made terrible choices in life just to try and get a guy because, well, everyone had to get one or else you were a loser? It was everyone, genuinely. There was no body positivity, no actual discussions. I understand why the thing at the end with femininity may irk some people, but I do think it was the most she thought she could do to showcase that there's more to life than trying to be one of those girls who live to please others. You see, Pink didn't mock the girl in the scene for wearing an inflatable bra, she got the idea and copied it because SHE wanted the attention. The character she ultimately mocks isn't the girl, it's herself, changing who she was and what she liked to please others. What irks the girl at the end is the image of a Pink who became someone she wasn't and left all of her smart ideas and unique traits to just be "perfect" visually, and it's what motivates the girl to keep going for her usual toys.
At the beginning you see her considering the dollhouse only after seeing those types of girls on TV and starting to think that maybe she should change. Anyways, it's always frustrating to me when people complain about this video because I truly see it as a product of its time. It was way harder to be a girl in the early 2000s in some ways.
"I don't feel as bad for Paris Hilton"
As much as I dislike her, she did get sent to a wilderness camp as a child so I do, in fact, feel sympathy for her. Yes she was raised wealthy but she was also legally kidnapped as a child and forced to do hard, abusive labor for a bit so I do have some pity for Paris
I was sent to wilderness therapy (SUWS in Shoshone Idaho), I don’t feel bad for myself.
@@gregtaylor9806she was also SA and R* there sooo
She was also SAed and abused at that camp
"Put Yourself First" from Crazy Ex-Girlfriend said what Katy Perry supposedly tried to, but better and more coherent years ago
Don't overthink it
Agree! The “Sexy Getting Ready Song “ is another good example of how to successfully play into the male gaze to critique it. That entire show is a hidden gem. More people need to watch it!
thank you!! i adore that song and wish it (and the whole show) had gotten more recognition
I don't know if this is a "bad" feminist view but I do think it's concerning-and something that should be addressed-for women to "dumb themselves down" or overly pander to the male gaze/the patriarchy; obviously it is not women's fault for feeling like they have to pander to the male gaze, etc, but I think to deny some women's complacency in the patriarchy (i.e. like when white women do or say things that perpetuate the misogynoir, racialize beauty standards, etc) under the idea that "who cares" or "their also a victim" or "there are other things to worry about" seems a little odd. Yes, all woman are victims under the patriarchy, but don't we ALL have a responsibility to fight back against it, to not deny our opinions and ideas for male validation-which doesn't only hurt ourselves but hurts other women? I don't know if this is a bad take, I just feel like to gloss over complacency as " who cares" or by saying they're also a victim is kind of disappointing. This doesn't have to do with how they dress or their gender performance but rather when women do dumb themselves and in turn re-perpetuate a stereotype to other women that they can't be "loud" or "opinionated."
Im glad i found someone talking about this. I do think that theres a difference between critiquing women for perpetuating systems of harm and critiquing them for how the present themselves. People may argue that 'stupid girls' is about women dumming themselves down for men but the music video tells the story. One where it just shits on women who arent the right "type" of woman.
I get you. Some women act like you shouldn't criticize any woman for their actions. And any criticism of the sex industry or sex in the media makes you a prude.
Exactly what I think too
I think at some point there’s an element of « live and let live » in here. Not everyone wants to be an activist 24/7 and if a woman can make money by dumbing herself down and acting cute for the camera, then putting it on OF or something, then good for her.
agreed %100
This reminds me of a short I just saw with the caption "If my man said this at the altar I would leave him", and most of the comments were agreeing, saying "girl run", stuff like that. It was literally just the groom indicating his fiancé looked sexy in her wedding dress, and her being all giggly and basically saying "damn right." Did no one actually take a moment to pay attention to HER reaction and consider that she may enjoy that kind of attention from a man who's about to be her husband? I'm saying this as someone who experienced girlhood and is in no way straight, it really bugs me that the only way female sexuality is allowed to be "empowering" is if she's either gay or in the "dominant" position if you know what I mean. A straight man sexually appreciating a woman's body is just as empowering if she's consenting and enjoying the experience.
Thank God
Damn right. There is nothing wrong with women feeling loved and I'm tired of people pretending there is.
Can’t believe we’re still stuck on the “being girly/ sexy /feminine isn’t feminist, you should act masculine to be taken seriously”🤡
so true, like why aren't everyone catching up yet we're tired of this
I do both I usually dress girly sometimes in warm weather but I'm a tomboy so I usually wear baggy clothes a lot and I try to be stylish with it. I think it's fun to mix things up a bit. I do get mocked sometimes as I'm alternative basically goth, which has been heavily over sexualized in recent years it's creepy.
There's also the extreme of trying to look bad on purpose. Someone will shave off their eyebrows and celebrate it as a victory.
@@toxiczombiewolf5692 Goth used to be super popular two decades ago. Now they're novel
ngl to be taken serious, katy perry just needed to do something serious. her song has like no substance, there is so much more that couldve been said but instead she chose to keep the message at
"women = good"
Pretty sure “wrong reasons” just means “compromising your goals and values for male approval” which yeah, don’t compromise what you want and who you are solely to satisfy others
In short, the "male gaze" isn't "things men like about women". It's "a lack of women's agency in their own image". Agency is the crux of everything. There is an argument to be made about whether someone can truly have agency if they don't have awareness of their exploitation, but in that case, I think we need to give these women the tools to become aware rather than shame them for their ignorance. Compassion, not blame. It also takes time and some level of maturity to go through that kind of reflection, so give people chances to grow at their own pace rather than demand that growth from them.
Wow, you just created a new level of victimhood. Do you feel better about yourself?
Women know for a fact that you cannot expose flesh and expect an intelligent response from most males, they have to expect a carnal response.
Lmao alot of yapping😅
I think a lot of women dress more for other women than for men.
Yeah, right. 😅
@@nikolavojnovic6552🙄
Doesn’t mean it’s not still male gaze, even if it’s for other women. Which sounds absurd to write down, but hear me out.
Would the standards in which women judge themselves or each other exist without patriarchy or the male gaze? Even in spaces absent of men?
It’s just so in our collective soup, we don’t realize it’s there, like a fish not knowing what water is, because it’s so omnipresent you wouldn’t think of it as anything.
It doesn’t mean you should feel bad or anything about enjoying it, it’s just there
To show off to other women that she's better than her so basically it's all about men!
..... That's not the meaning of the male gaze means though, it's about the assumption of who's behind the camera and the assumed audience. If someone dresses for aesthetic appreciation of women broadly or the feminine that's who they intended. Or it could be for self expression, the fact that others perceive and possibly may objectify you doesn't change that. Just like someone could dress for different reasons on different days. That patriarchal consumption of women as visual objects occurs doesn't meant "it's for men". Objectifiers would participate in consuming the visual objectified person regardless because such objectification is rarely consensual or even a mutual occurrence. That's why the male gaze works best as art critique. There's a distinct audience that the artist is inherently intentionally trying to illict reactions from and make assumptions about in the process of creation. And not all art makes those assumptions but commercial film is a good example. The critique gets messy outside that space quickly.
I'm also not too pessimistic to say fashion and personal expression cannot exist without patriarchy. On a more comic note, go to a sapphic/lesbian bar they are certainly not doing things under a male gaze and many of the signifiers of what's an attractive aesthetic are different even if there is overlap as well. I don't see covergirl doing a butches on motorcycle spread anytime soon. Or hell Kristen Stewarts Rolling Stones gay leather look lit the queer internet on fire but reactionary men hated it.😮
I’m gonna play devil’s advocate for the uterus prop. There’s so many sex ed textbooks out there that censor scientific diagrams of afab reproductive systems as well as diagrams of vulvas while being fine with showing amab reproductive diagrams and penis diagrams. Destigmatizing images of the uterus is something that I would argue as important. I don’t want kids but I still have one of those (a uterus) and knowing what’s going on inside of it and how it works could have helped me with my dysfunctional menstrual cycle a lot earlier if people were more willing to talk about it.
Male gaze should've been left in film theory
Fully agree! It's so tiresome the way it gets deployed nowadays. Like, I get that it's very accessible for newbie feminists, but also, like. God it's deployed in such cruel (often totally, callously indirect) ways towards lesbians, especially transbians.
well, it's an art theory. i think it would be bad to limit that theory to movies only. imho
If you think "male gaze" It's only for films It's bc you don't really know what it is. At the end all of this started with arts in general, this theory It's not just for films. Gender rolls are everywhere and anywhere
Why not have both male and female gaze, but less pervy and more ranged
Like also have nice looking men who don’t have to be muscular and actually muscular woman with visible biceps and abs.
Edit: 621 likes? I’ll fix that.
@@DanialTarki wait, how are we defining "pervy" here? Like, I know plenty of girls and guys whose thoughts about muscley girls and feminine boys are far from pure.
Nice video essay. On the bit where you were talking about Rosy the Riveter garb, I wanted to add something because you used images of Black women, but noted how that period in U.S. history was the first time women could leave the domestic sphere. I think it's important to acknowledge that this wasn't the case for Black women, who always were forced to do manual labor because of the nature of enslavement.
Subject-object theory is so important. Thank you for highlighting it here
I think the one issue I have with this whole concept is that, no, conditioning does have an effect on us. It has had an effect on me. It terrifies me. Living within patriarchy and being effected by it doesn't make you stupid, brain-washed, or infantilised. It's the natural consequence of being raised to exalt men. Becoming aware of that is extremely helpful. There's nothing wrong with being girly, but the idea that I've been distracted by not believing in myself and not pursuing my goals haunts me. I agree that the pop culture ideas of it are extremely reductive and immature, but not because it isn't based in some semblance of reality, rather it's just underdeveloped and surface level.
Excellent video! My perspective to add: The male gaze also impacts queer women in a unique way. When young wlw see women being objectified and that being deemed as what they should be attracted to, it can make them feel uncomfortable bc they don’t also want to be perceived in the same way. At least from personal experience, it makes realizing your identity harder because I think it adds an extra layer of shame. That’s why representation and queer media is so important in my opinion
As a bi girl, the male gaze having a weird impact is so real, it really does add a layer of shame. I remember feeling bad about myself when I was younger because it felt wrong to see beautiful women. For me personally it's a bit different, I find myself as the gazer as well as the one being gazed upon. Seeing women objectified so much and that being shown as what is attractive shaped the ways I perceived attraction which led me to start objectifying other women subconsciously. It felt extra shameful because I was literally on their side and I felt like this weird pervert spy for a long time. Seeing objectified women gave me pleasure but it also made me feel so weird about my gender since I'm literally one of them.
Representation would have definitely made this way better for me and many others, which is why it's so important
I dont like Katy Perry. She should be the last one to talk about anything. Did she ever address her groping of a MINOR Justin Bieber? Gross.
the purple "toy" in the first perry segment is a spine massager cane that goes by a couple of names, although possibly the music video makers did not know that either?
I think the Pink video was so mean spirited because back then, society was so cliquey. I feel like today there is more freedom to be girly, goth, or anything you like. Back then even having natural non-straight hair could get you openly dissed in public. Today it wouldn't fly. We have gone a ways since those days. I remember thinking the video was mean, but I also remember being seen, finally, because girls who didn't go for the mainstream style were just not part of the media or culture. You had to look like Pink's "stupid girls", or you were not considered a girl at all. The only response to that was to scream loud at it. It doesn't age well. And it's good to see how much has changed. But at the time, it felt like punching up into the ruling clique
Well said
Dr Luke?! Lmao, Katy Perry really thought, she would be able to achieve anything meaningful with that man at the helm?! I doubt, he has the will/range/depth for any of that. She should have just embraced the pink and sexy aesthetic and ride on the Barbie movie coattails.
Honestly, even as a teenager, “Stupid Girlz” rubbed me the wrong way, though I couldn’t articulate why at the time.
Probably the improper use of "z" in place of "s"
There's no "z" lol
Discussions like this always remind me that “political lesbianism” is, and has been a thing lol. Like, it’s aestheticizing feminism, n putting the weight on women, and making sexuality seem like a choice (literally, look up political lesbianism…). So it’s weirdly misogynistic and homophobic as well, n it’s always so cis centered too! Leave all of that shit, including pop feminism in the 2000s, imbrace intersectionality !!
A comment on the “right reasons to be girly”: I believe the right reason to be girly (or do anything) is because it’s you truly want to, including wanting to for the purposes of being conventionally sexually attractive. However, an example of a “wrong reason,” or an inauthentic choice, would be believing being girly is necessary to being attractive at all. There’s a balance in being truthful to yourself when making choices around fashion, behavior, and other methods of self expression. I’m not defending Pink’s video but I think there’s something to be said about authenticity being including in the definition of self expression (i.e. “the right reasons to be girly”)
I would add there is value to 'dress to impress', if you want to. I typically dress like I just got out of bed, but every now and then I go the extra mile and people around me are happier for it. While I think dressing Only to impress is bad, we also shouldn't be afraid of spreading joy through our actions. Maybe wear a funny hat. Maybe wear your best outfit.
Considering others isn't a bad thing. Considering ONLY others can be.
@@Pangora2 love the succinctness of the last sentences!!
"You can't aestheticize Feminism" Thank you! That is the problem right now is people think Feminism is an aesthetic to exploit instead of a state of mind and movement.
If you make fun of other women for things that are “girly” an SPOILER: you’re being mysognystic.
Feminism it’s not about trying to make woman more “”””masculine””””” to be respected, it’s about advocating for rights and respect aside from how she decides to perform her gender.
What rights? Why do feminists have problems clearly telling people what actual things aside from vague platitudes that their mo vent stands for?
growing up with a feminist mom, I was exposed heavily to 2010s feminism growing up. It was during that time when a lot of young girls were told that if they were girly or liked princess or anything like that they weren't feminist. Growing up I was the most girly sparkly pink princess ever (still am tbh) and I felt bad because I was always seeing feminists say that was bad. then i learned about the women who were embracing femininity because they just wanted to because it was fun, and that they could still be feminists. Now I know that i can be as feminist as i want and still wear pink.
This GENUINELY opened my eyes to what exactly the "male gaze" is. Because, as a guy, for so long, I was deeply confused by the definitions and examples I kept being presented, they didn't make any sense to me because it would be something like how a woman presents herself, and for me I never understood it because what people said was just regular clothes or something. But hearing you explain how feminism isn't something you can aestheticise and the male gaze had NOTHING to do with what women did put all the pieces together in my head that the male gaze was just that, a gaze. The person being objectified doesn't have to change anything, because they aren't the problem, it is the person DOING the objectifying that needs to change and adjust. And feminism isn't a tangible thing you can market, it is an ideal and a belief system, it's all internal.
Katy Perry didn't want to include a lesbian kiss because it would be too "male gaze-y?" What was her breakout hit again?
As a hip hop fan I wish someone would do this kind of analysis on the trend the empowered sex kitten rapper archetype
It's been a while since I watched it so idk if this will be exactly what you're after, but For Harriet has a vid called "Why do Black women performers HAVE to sell sex?" which I remember as pretty excellent. I think she's touched on related topics in other vids too
th-cam.com/video/UeWlySR4wBU/w-d-xo.html
This video put a lot of emphasis on men, but it shouldn't be forgotten that patriarchy, the male gaze, sexist attitudes etc. can be assumed by all kinds of people, not just cis men. A very important point of feminism is sorority, the "I'm with her" message you showed at some point in the video. Satire by definition defies interpretation, and I think the producers knew this all along. Katy Perry said that it's meant to be a satire, but she's pretty comfortable with making ambiguous statements in her songs/videos to appeal to the vast majority of the audience she can reach. My point being, the video doesn't want to be anything but a product. The satire label is to appeal not alienate feminists. It's up to you as viewer to choose to play the satire game or not. Personally I lost it at the gasoline pump part, but I recognize it's just aesthetics, there's not a point behind it beyond max reach and max engagement.
That's why female gaze also exist
It can be assumed that a certain level of competition and hostility between women (as in: strangers) would exist even if all men were totally neutral beings. Like, humans evolved towards small groups/tribes, kinship would naturally trump any kind of gender based sympathy.
@@rd3munna812you missed the point of this comment and the entire video lol
I’m not going to hide the fact that I am a man throwing his thoughts into this kind of topic, and I am obviously no expert nor do I have a deeply rooted experience in this matter. I just want to clarify that before I begin this lengthy thesis of a comment.
I fully agree with Lin about what she says about the male gaze and about how ideologies shouldn’t be an aesthetic. There shouldn’t be a “correct” way to express you identity, your personality, experiences and thoughts because even people within similar circles or experiences will have a varying opinions. There is nothing wrong with conforming to a standard or breaking it or anything in between as long as the freedom of choice is available - the fact that this one model isn’t the one singular model. It annoys me how some people are bullied for using their autonomy of choice to follow a path they wanted and not the path that people are being encouraged to do. No two people will want the exact same life. Some people want a humble life and there is nobility in that. Some people are ambitious and there is admiration in that. Some people just want to find the meaning to their life and there is wonder in that. There is nothing wrong with having autonomy over your path.
Having a particular ideology doesn’t make you a “good person” or mean you are following “the correct path” because there are so many flavours of the same ideology. Utilitarianism alone has at least five and feminism definitely has more than that with how messy and complicated the discussion of gender has become since feminism began. Because like all things, they are not inherently good or evil until someone applies it and you can certainly misinterpret something. To flip the coin, stoicism has been misinterpreted by many men of this age and believe it to praise the denial of emotion to hold an unconquerable heart of stone. In reality, stoicism is the acceptance of facts. You accept the fact that you will one day pass away, you accept the fact wanting people to like you alone doesn’t make people like you, you accept the fact that even when you are at your darkest hour this isn’t your final hour. Being stoic doesn’t make you a “good man”, it makes you stoic. To be good is to do good at the very least, as part of an ideology or not.
People should be free to express whatever feminine traits or masculine traits they want regardless of their gender and there is nothing wrong with that. Feminism, from my understanding, fights for women to have full autonomy over themselves and the paths they wish to pursue. Whether it is the way they are viewed, depicted, understood or conceptualised, they are a fully realised human, no less than a human. So why do some people, including people who say they are feminists, feel disdain when a woman uses her autonomy the way she wants to? There is never “the correct way” once philosophy is involved, only “your authentic way”: the path you choose because you understand it is yours.
One issue is, among all these ideologies, who is getting helped out the most? If everyone spent 0 minutes a day to "dress to impress" and in a parallel universe everyone spent 10 minutes a day, where's the problem? Back in the Great Depression the bread lines were full of men in suits. What the issue was is the nature of the internet where we all hear about the bad excesses. So instead of assuming all our neighbors and friends would enjoy seeing and being around someone who puts some effort in we think behind every corner is an evil predator, or someone with a grand plan to oppress people.
Simply put its paranoia. When you visit someone you care for, wear what you want, but never be afraid to step it up now and then to put a smile on their faces and forget about ideology and systems when it comes to the people you're supposed to trust.
@@Pangora2, I don’t quite understand what you mean at the beginning of your statement or what you mean when you mention the Great Depression, so I apologise is I don’t understand a point you make. I do appreciate anything else you have to say.
I agree with you about paranoia. Negative experiences and emotions are stronger than positive ones. That’s just how our brains are wired (thanks evolution) but not without good reason. They linger with us, and when it comes to such things, the chances of them repeating to us or to someone else, sadly, are never zero. As a man who has a thing for style and suits, I adore the effort put into someone’s craft, whether it be makeup, jewellery, hair, material, the interactions of colours, or the design stylised. I don’t understand why some men, or some people for that matter, taint the purity of genuine love or say “she’s asking for it” when things like consent and a little thing called verbal communication exists. Compassion and kindness are the only things that make mathematical sense to me since we live in a plus sum world; needless cruelty helps no-one, not even the perpetrators in the long run. People should have the freedom to express themselves for themselves or for the sake of feeling the appearance psychologically provides. My friend has a pair of high heels that give her confidence while I have a dress shirt that makes me feel more formal. There is nothing wrong with that.
As for what you said about putting ideologies aside, absolutely! I’m an over-thinker! I’m a nerd! There is no “off switch” for me! I could tell you how the architecture of Arcane contributes to the storytelling of the show or how two songs exchange dialogue with each other from the timbre to the pitch used and the message. These two bands probably don’t even know the other exists and yet the two songs fit so narratively. I could tell you how no ideology will ever be “the” answer because “the” problems are always changing with each and every single second and every single interaction in existence. But most people don’t care about that kind of stuff or that level of detail. Culture, knowledge, wisdom, and experiences should be shared but never forced. Nor should they be constantly on your mind. You should absolutely be able to set aside ideologies among those you call friends and have a good time together for the sake of having a good time.
Listen, the way the tension in my upper body loosened when I heard "you can't aesthecise feminism." Finally! Someone tells it like it is! Focusing on the image component of culture - the aesthetics - low-key reinforces hierarchy, and hierarchy are essential for capitalism. So as long as we're focused on a fixed idea of what feminism & womanhood are to the point of aesthetising them, patriarchy wins either way and both feminism & anti-feminism become channel strips on a mixing board. Because once you have an aesthetic for something, it's easily used as a signfier to represent everything we don't want. And both Katy Perry & P!nk played into this, which annoys the shit out of me.
very interesting how popular discourse about the "male gaze" still circles back to blaming women
Honesty, I’d say don’t try to be derogatory with the intend of blaming either sex at all. Most of the time male gaze, blames men, or sees men as lesser for even being sexually attracted to women, or sees male sexuality as an evil, but if you oment the inherent blame and the charged gendered blaming term of “male gaze”, neither sex has to be blamed as a sort of evil.
It's been years since I even thought about Pink's "Stupid Girls" and wow, you're right, it hasn't aged well. I'll add it to the list of "things that contributed to my not-like-other-girls phase". I'm glad I've grown beyond that because in hindsight, it wasn't good for me or other girls and women I interacted with.
I didn't watch Legally Blonde until I was an adult because of how younger me judged it for being pink and (I thought at the time) antithetical to feminism. It's a shame, because I reckon I would've benefit from it.
Same! I took one look at legally blonde and thought NOPE! Looks like objectification of the female bimbo to me
Honestly, I don't get how people think that dressing provocatively is "asking for it" or that dressing modestly will prevent men from objectifying and sexualising women.
Like, are they aware that "sexy nun" is a thing? A nun's outfit is specifically meant to be extremely modest and the exact opposite of sexy; more modest than that and you get those veil outfits that cover everything except the eyes that you see in some Muslim countries. Yet people still find a way to sexualise nuns despite their modest clothing.
So, really, what's the argument here? If men really want they'll objectify basically anything, it's pointless to blame women or say that women can fight it, society should be publishing the men that can't behave.
2:31 how ironic from someone who literally made a song that was “queerbaity” back in the day 💀
And on top of that, that song also happens to be a male-gazey sexualized fantasy of wlw lmaoo
17:56 To be clear, I think "bro, just let her work out" is what pink is actually saying in the video as well. The way I see it, Pink the artist is criticizing the character played by herself, who is jealous of the woman in the red, perceives her as getting male attention just because she has big breasts, and judges and mocks her as a result. You're right that the woman in red isn't even trying to get male attention, and I think if pink herself thought that, she would've portrayed her differently in the video. She's might still be criticizing her own character for wanting male attention though.
I was unsure if you meant pink herself, or the character played by pink in your screenshots of the gym scene, sorry if I got it wrong. I got the feeling you thought pink was hating on women for having larger chests, but I think if anything, she's criticizing WANTING larger chests, so men will pay attention to you.
Hey y'all, do we think that the patriarchy isn't about how women dress and act but maybe the way that we think and talk about how women dress and act?
P!nk's song "Stupid Girls" had some truth especially when she was mentioning girls wanting to become sugar babies which is highly prevalent when it comes to Hollywood with famous men with wives young enough to be their daughters (regardless of what job they do or how old they were) but shaming girls for having "feminine" interests like wearing skirts instead of pants listening to bubblegum pop music instead of heavy metal or becoming cheerleaders at sporting events shouldn't be the proper way to criticize women going against feminism
It’s yt feminism, when satire becomes part of the problem then it’s just a faux moral cash grab
18:41 "Though rejecting traditional femininity and what's expected of you *is* radical, that's also not the only right way to be a woman nor will it save you as a woman from the patriarchy or male gaze"
Banger of a line.
"Women's World" is a pop-feminist anthem in a world that doesn't care about pop-feminist anthems anymore. Katy Perry wants another "Firework" or "Roar" but we don't. I think that's where a lot of the confused imagery of the video comes from. She knows she can't make another female empowerment anthem for the male gaze, but she also can't not, so she does it "ironically."
what frustrates me is how a man can be a blank slate, and a woman cannot.
A guy's body is not inherently sexualized. A guy can be shirtless, and while there are times where that is and isn't appropriate, people don't really care. But there are so many parts of a woman's body that grab attention, that spur on judgment, that are immediately quantified and qualified to what a man thinks.
When you're a woman, there's this feeling that you cannot escape being "preyed" upon.
For men, the con is feeling valueless, but for women, it's that your value is being judged constantly.
This is a personal story, feel free to read if you like:
I was at a party with some friends of mine that I've known since I was a kid. We were up at a friend's cottage and we were all joking around having fun. We took mushrooms, swam in the water, played harmonica, had a good time. I make a little stick-guy thing, and thought it would be funny to put in the fire like some weird effigy. Then I thought it would be extra funny to grab the harmonica and play it as I did a goofy dance around the fire, like that of a gremlin. We all laughed at the absurdity of it, some people doing a little dance along with.
It was really fun, and in doing something that weird I felt myself open up to them even though I was feeling detached from them around that time.
Later that night though, my step brother walked up to me and started chatting with me.
Started talking about how he liked how different I was acting, that it was more "chaotic" than the usual me. He went on to say that he liked my effigy dance, thought it was funny.
... But then went on to say "It was kind of demonic, but also sexy..."
I think in that moment, I realized that I'll never be able to hide from how other people see me. I didn't want to look sexy. I didn't do it to turn him on. I did it because I thought it was funny.
If it was his guy friend who did the same thing, all it would be is a joke.
He wouldn't have some dude coming up to him to try and hit on him after. His own step brother at that.
The same actions become inherently warped, because I'm a woman.
They look at me and just see something they want.
I cannot be a blank slate, like a man.
I cannot escape being preyed upon.
I've lived my life having men have their eyes on me, and make a fantasy out of me.
And I've had women in my life judge and envy me, for a body I happened to be born with.
My mom would see me getting hit on by my 40 year old neighbour at 13, and all she could seem to think about was how I was so much prettier than her.
I've moved out of my home town. I'm meeting people that treat me the way I've always hoped to be treated. But still, that feeling always looms over me.
And the people that make it come back are never far.
This comment speaks to me so badddddd. I’m a teenage girl and these guys are so manipulative. Cus it be good vibes and like a cute actual chat but then it will somehow go left. Like this one dude who wanted to flirt with me wanted to randomly say in our normal convo that I am a Oreo… I was caught off guard being black (and if you don’t know if ur a black girl being called an Oreo that means ur “whitewashed”). Somehow no it wasn’t even that it was even worse. He said I was an Oreo cus my legs… and wanting what was in between (iykyk)
It’s ridiculous like a few minutes ago I was talking about food with this dude but he took food and started making comments about my body or even mentioning my big lips being around yk what…
@@AUGHHHHHBBG there's something so disappointing about having a normal conversation and then suddenly having a guy try to "flirt" in a way that's just insulting.
It's surprising how clueless a lot of them are?
Like I met my boyfriend not through him flirting me up and taking to me like I'm meat, we connected over lots of things outside of that and then opened up about how romantic tastes and started complimenting each other.
What happened to just saying "you have beautiful eyes" or "i find your voice soothing to listen to" or even "you're so lovely to talk to I look forward to it every time" like omg it's not that hard ;-;
@@quoire proper flirting takes years to get right. There are some men who makes it look easy but as a guy, let me tell you, it comes after many, many, many failed attempts. Take assurence in knowing that we are genuinly trying.
so glad you voiced the nuanced feelings I have with the anti-pick me movement. Pick me ideology can absolutely be toxic and involve women putting each other down and of course we should strive against that and call it out; but there's nothing inevitably problematic with dressing in an attractive way because it makes you feel good, and enjoying the (non-abusive, non-dehumanizing) attention you might get from a man you're interested in or in a relationship with. I ABSOLUTELY agree women tend to fret far too much about their looks to men and if you're killing yourself with stress then put on some sweats and call it a day, because at that point it IS about internalized patriarchy. Different styles of dress will be emotionally appropriate for different women at different times in their life. If you're feeling like you've been pandering to the point of losing yourself, you probably need a break and to just let yourself be relaxed/comfortable while you recenter your sense of self. If you're dating/exploring your sexuality, it's good and healthy and normal to get dressed up and feel good and have fun with your image. Cultural waves seem to only embrace ONE of these ideas at a time, when people need more than just one philosophy to help navigate their lives. Irregardless, Perry deserves no grace for this one because she managed to dehumanize women with her video.
I agree that people should have more faith in women that we can make decisions for ourselves, I also think its important to have resources and media that actively fights against what men have been forcing onto us for like ever. Its important to have voices that say "You literally don't have to be the stereotypical girl." I also agree that women hating on other women to uplift themselves is performative feminism at best and hateful at worst. But other women saying "Hey, think a little deeper before dumbing yourself down/changing for a man" is not a bad thing whatsoever. In a patriarchal society where men are constantly telling us how to think and act and live, it is very important to have wake up calls like that to 'break women out of the matrix' for lack of better words. If a woman still decides to dumb herself down for male attention, awesome, she has made her own informed decision. There is nothing wrong with informing women of their own agency in a worldwide patriarchal system that trains us how to think a certain way from day one. Katy Perry and PINK absolutely should have rethought the "I'm better than other women because I'm a feminist/I do feminism better than them" messages as they do more harm than good, but criticizing the act of changing yourself inauthentically to gain something else is not anti-feminism. Its not about how good of a feminist you can be by "letting women think for themselves" (which we very much can and very much do), its about mental health. Changing yourself to gain anything other than self love is a mental health issue, not a feminist issue. The goal for any human being is to find self acceptance and peace, not a mold to fit into. Sometimes its better to view ourselves as humans and not just what we think a woman is.
Katy Perry is not a feminist and she has to come to terms with that.
I still think you can perfectly can call a woman an idiot, if you acknowledge all individuals as agents with their own individuality and agency that means they are not unable to make horrible and stupid decisions which should be called out regardless of their gender but their intelligence, which would include women
As a bookish, weird girl, I loved _Stupid Girls_ and the vid - it made me feel less alone. I was often frustrated with how vapid the women on TV seemed, and I also felt enormous pressure to look like these women. The song made me feel like my frustration with how I was treated and seen as a girl was legitimate. And that legitimised frustration would eventually evolve into actual feminism.
So yeah it made me feel seen as a 13yo, but looking back, it's a very flawed piece of art. A generous reading might be that it has some solid ideas (e.g. girls are impacted by the roles and goals of women on TV; women are often reduced to sex objects and rewarded by men for playing into that role, etc.) but it loses sight of the actual patriarchal system that needs the most challenging and blame. And instead pits smart women/girls against "stupid girls."
Your video felt like a breath of fresh air tbh...I'm a bisexual woman interested in women more and have been the subject and the object simultaneously and these days when I look at my body in the mirror, I look at parts that I like and not what the society or men would like. It takes time to get to the point of liking parts of your body. As for the male gaze, my experience is that when I was involved in the locker room talk for the first time in my life it was very scary...The way they objectify and speak about women's parts like fresh pieces of meat disgusted me and I looked at women differently and wondered if they knew what guys or men talk about when it came to women...Women may not be aware of the way men view women which is a problem I feel and another thing is that when I came to terms with my sexuality and began openly viewing women with the male gaze, I think the male gaze can be respectful as it's appreciating a woman's physical appearance where it doesn't wear out or exhaust a woman when it comes to attention. Maybe, it's the way they perceive someone being "hot" is the problem rather than viewing someone as "hot". The reason is because I have sexualised women and felt guilty for it but is taking quick glance an issue? I have come to realise that male gaze can be respectful at times and female gaze can be disrespectful at times...Another thing that you mentioned about women dumbing themselves and acting cute is them "pandering to the male gaze" in these "satire feminist videos" but rather it's their personal choice which I totally. Imo, Women doing these kind of things aren't pandering to the male gaze but rather working around a system that's built against them. They don't fight or resist the system against them but found a smarter way to get to where they want to be. That's a sneaky yet clever move imo and putting them down isn't really going to help fight the patriarchy but rather enable it as patriarchy attempts to create a competition within women as to who is better or worse in being a woman. Instead of judging women in the way they express, there needs to be support and respect in however or whichever way a woman chooses to express herself. Thank you for reading this comment this far...
When I saw those robo legs, it gave me pause. I’m a Black Woman, and there are many of us that are built that way naturally. We are often referred to as “ Clydesdales”. She’s recreated that body shape as something that’s supposed to be humorous but sexy. I feel like SOMEONE who was apart of her creative team knew that.
Because they were robot legs? What a weird thing to see yourself in. Not everything is a reference to black women or girls or meant as a sleight to them. Sheesh.
Someone said she was plagiarizing Arca who became popular from a song where she wore robotic legs in a music video.
@@citrus_sweetTwo things can be true at the same time, I don't know if you're trying to reassure this person or dismiss their opinion. I don't like it, I'm leaning towards the latter. Whenever there's something r@cist, people would rather say there must be an explanation, it can't be that. You're doing that and it's frustrating. Most times it is that because imperialism and colonization happened. R@c!sm is real and very alive. These attitudes and beliefs have evolved and become stronger while staying the same as before. This can also be a dog whistle, why can you not acknowledge that?
@@sseraphim2818 1. I'm afro-american; 2. Notice how I never disagreed with the original commenter; 3. Use more critical thinking: her outfit (white bikini, robot legs, collar) is similar to Arca's in Kick I; 4. I don't care if you don't like my comment, I don't know you.
Me personally. I'm okay if every song, by a female artist isn't always a feminist anthem. That's okay, because some songs are just about fun.
Honestly, at this point I'm starting to think that the male gaze is more about men than it is about women, which makes sense since it was coined by a guy right? Men are the voyeur but they're also the creators, they are the ones being centered in our media, but somehow it's up to individual women and girls to fight back against it in the day to day, even when picking out an outfit or going to the gym. Women can be anything but if its connected to men/acceptance in any way then they should reconsider.
Internet feminism is so strange, cause over and over again things that were originally specific and defined become muddled and individualized (??) Like Pick me girls/NLOGS were 2 different things that have become mushed together and turned into a kind of individual metric women have to reject, instead of a conversation about bullying and depiction of girls in media.
This video was v refreshing to watch!!!
It's hard going back to that Pink song without cringing
I still love that song but it was the original "I'm not like other girls" anthem lol
I made a longer comment on it, but basically I think it boils down to this: it made a lot of sense when it was written. It was a reaction to the extreme misogyny of the post 9/11 era. I don’t think it’s perfect, I don’t think she’d make it now, but back when we all had limited options for media and self expression, it was a very brave song to make.
@@haileybalmer9722 So glad to find someone else defending it. Without living through (and then internalizing) the incredibly repressive misogyny of the early 2000s and the lack of ways we as a public could articulate it, it's hard to understand how impactful it was at the time, certainly for her fans. I also think the "i'm not like other girls" commentary misses that that trope is also a male fantasy. Maybe I just want to give her more credit, but I think Pink is also making fun of herself in the music video, for of course wanting to participate too.
As flawed as that song is, its also good to acknowledge that for better and for worse, social awareness is a subject that evolves quickly and that song is merely a product of some dated beliefs that arent worth neither defence or ire.
@@broom_people I remember seeing an interview where she talked about an influence on the song being... basically, insider awareness of the music/entertainment industry at the time. Like, this idea of female artists who built (or were born into) success and then chose to keep projecting this image not as a means of self-expression which happened to align with contemporary beauty standards, but essentially as a business decision because that's what the industry wanted to see from them.
And I think that part is a pretty fair issue to want to critique, because I think it's at least *approaching* an intersectional idea - that women who earn significant wealth are not necessarily helpless victims within the patriarchal system, and they do have an amount of power to uphold/enforce standards which women who have less are expected to follow.
Obviously, the actual expression of it isn't very sophisticated, and I think nowadays the song itself looks like it's perpetrating this same particular sin that it may have been attempting to criticise. But it's also like... within mainstream media at the time, there wasn't really anything looking any more thoroughly at that specific issue? Mean Girls touched on something *similar* more effectively, but Mean Girls didn't have as much to say about industry figures perpetuating standards on a mass-media scale cause its focus was different. But as far as I'm aware, that industry element was an important aspect of the idea for Stupid Girls.
The male gaze is, ultimately, about power. That's why it doesn't matter what you do or what you wear. Men will still objectify you, because it's all about proving that they have power. It's why doing whatever you want, because you want to, is what frustrates misogynists the most. It takes the power they want so badly away from them. It's so easy to get caught in these mental gymnastics, trying to figure out how to live for or not for other people, it's no wonder so many women struggle as adults to figure out how to live for themselves. If they're not hurting anyone, just let people live. We can't read people's minds. We don't know why they live the way they do. If they're happy, just let them be. If you're reading this, I hope you're able to find happiness too.
She hit the nail on the head in the beginning of the video. Just be yourself regardless of how masculine or feminine it may seem because the truth is there really is no such thing as the male gaze. Dudes are attracted to women, period, there is no complex theory to be considered it just is what it is so your best course of action is to not worry about that and live your life.
18:23 I feel like I am personally entitled to massive financial compensation from whoever thought putting that toothbrush scene in the music video was a good idea, like I have over a decade of very expensive therapy bills.
The reason why I never bought into what Pink was saying in "Stupid Girls" was like, OK, you made a video on how girls shouldn't be so much into make-up and all that, and what did she make after the video came out? A Cover Girl ad.
The 2000s were brutal, so Pink's song felt kind to hear.
In 2024 it definitely does ring differently, but the media isn't as toxic to tweens/teens & young women as it was back then, so it would change the way you percieve it I guess.
It's me im first lol. Also congrats on 150k subs🎉
Unironically as a bisexual woman who has an interest in things like animal psychology, _this screams mate gaurding behaviors._
People forget humans are animals too, just we can rise above our base desires and course correct our lives for the long run.
And the same way animals have a habit of finding ways to socially ostracize and attack those they see as competition, so do people.
It's not a logical/rational thought out behavior as much as just the result of sexually reproducing as a species.
Patriarchy is a system that abuses that tendency, _BUT I don't think it invented it._
This is one of those situations where honestly as apes it MAKES SENSE just for there to be behaviors like that REGARDLESS cultural of socialization.
*_But I also feel like we can choose to just not._*
A LOT of behaviors are "natural" for animals, that doesn't mean we as humans with sapience have to partake tho.
Edit: BASICALLY I think this isn't inherently linked to patriarchy as much as I think Patriarchy likes to fuel it/feed off of it.
It makes sense from a social standpoint why a heterosexual ape would be at odds with their "competition" as it's an evolved trait.
*_But we can also learn to move past biases like that and THAT is what makes us human._*
Careful now you’re starting to essentialize human behavior, things like evolutionary psychology are kinda junk in the same way race science was
You know, i think it's mainly commentary on corporate feminism like the whole "we don't care about the male gaze, but really we do" is criticism on how even all the clothes and makeup up that are marketed to women is based around the male gaze and is defended as "our choice" when we internalize a ton of misogyny to want to look that way. Our sexual 'liberation' is something that's sold to us as an item but not accepted when we choose to be intimate with a partner. The uterus is how these corporations lump all afabs as women and based womanhood on having a uterus
The Katy Perry video is so blatantly anti-feminist that it's hard to listen to you treat it like Perry's stated intentions are real.
I feel like every critique here makes sense but also it's kind of missing the forest for the trees? These are all products. It's studio pop music, it's music videos - so yes, it's going to be about aesthetics and commodifying things. These aren't essays they're literally products made by large companies
Things made by and for very large groups of people are almost never going to be nuanced or well-measured.
I think an underlying issue is that there aren't as robust a variety of depictions of women, hampering perspectives of young people.
It's starting to change as it has in the recent past, but critiquing women for adopting or emulating the few archtypes they're pressired into internalizing is more of a systemic issue.
It's like calling a female pro gamer team bad compared to the male counterparts. There just hasn't been enough change in the time frame for mature female talent pools to develop.
This puts more of a burden on the few traditionally sanctioned roles women have been given in pop culture.
It doesn't help that women get harassed so much in the gaming scene. It's hard to be motivated to grind everyday to be pro when you're constantly harassed by gamer bros who put their entire masculine identity in the fact that they're decent at a shooting game and can't handle seeing a woman better than them.
There are plenty of women who are in the top ranks of competitive games, but few push to go pro.
@@NihongoWakannai And this happens in many fields. Men are quick to say it's the women who refuse to advance in male-dominated areas, but they conveniently leave out just how vicious they are against women entering said areas. They conveniently leave out how rough and offensive they are to new women compared to new men. Its all about blaming women.
I mean there's an episode of American Idol where she assaulted an auditioning contestant who wanted to wait before marriage & the whole set was complicit
i love your argument against aestheticizing feminism. its something i see applicable to decolonizing where im continuously bothered by people relying on aesthetics when these issues are ultimately about power and agency.
I always appreciate your well thought out and articulated essays.
Congratulations on 151k subscribers, well earned. Your videos are excellent.
One of those items is a theracane, which is not a sex toy it's just a thing therapists and people use to treat knots in muscles. I know because I literally just bought one earlier this week. An easy mistake though because it looks really weird.
I think the bigger point about “acting dumber or more submissive than they are” issue is the reason behind putting on that act. I also don’t think that women who aren’t feminist get a pass on criticism because they are women. On that point, it is important to clarify that not being a “girl boss” doesn’t mean not a feminist. If we’re talking about truly anti-feminist women there are a few reasons why it isn’t a matter of live and let live. Mainly, anti-feminist rhetoric is regressive and genuinely harmful and allowing it to spread is bad regardless of if other women are saying it. Secondly, not all of the women who identify as anti-feminist are actually making that choice. There are women in religious communities who have been told they have been designed for one purpose only and have no choice but to serve that purpose. It’s healthy to at least challenge that notion so they can actually make an empowered decision on what they *want*. I do agree that the reaction shouldn’t be “you’re just stupid” because that’s not even an argument let alone not convincing. I also do think that feminism online does end up going in circles about minute details about how to “correctly” subvert patriarchal ideals when the ideals are set up to be lose-lose. I just think that there’s a middle ground between “there’s only one way to be a feminist” and “feminism is not criticizing women ever” which is unfortunately the two options I mainly see presented.
The system is the problem not the women who live in it. Even the media because look at the way feminism is represented, feminists are not all purple haired manhaters, I mean some are and thats their right lol. Feminism is for all women, it means that we are flawed,people who learn and change just like men. I just became a subscriber,I appreciate the nuance and research and actual thought put into this.