Why Leatherman's Battle With Victorinox Is Toxic!!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ต.ค. 2024
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"Companies should focus on making products I like to use"
Definitely. LOL!
Considering he seems to use multitools in a professional environnement. I can relate to this a lot. Hence why he's an advocate of pliers based multitools. They are more complete as a all in one tool.
As for me I'm frustrated about the current market in general. Because making our toolbox more convenient to carry is something that multitools does very well.
Except they are oriented towards outdoors or EDC. This is why we get things like bottle and can openers in most of them.
I don't hate them and they have their place, however pro oriented multitools should be nice.
Oh yes
yeah. I would like more purpose based tools.
Like something for Electricians, mechanics, construction, free time. Not these jack of all trade solutions that all miss some tools.
An interesting concept was that GOAT too. The last time I watched it wasn't on the market. And...it looked kind of big and heavy.
A mutlitool should replace your tool case. But not with the weight.
Some people, like me, don't want to carry one 9 ounce tool. I carry in pairs: KS2 Elite with SOG Power Pint, or Victorinox Ranger with Light Wrench W2. Combined about 9 ounces, but easier to pocket since I have five pockets to work with.
That makes perfect sense! Always interesting to hear what people carry.
In my pocket, I carry a small Victorinox (24/7). On my toolbelt, I carry pliers-based (now my new custom Roxon Flex!). There’s definitely room for both types of tools in the market and for individual people.
I agree that the companies can get distracted trying to compete in markets that aren’t their primary market. But it’s that competition that can drive innovation from all companies, and helps keep prices reasonable. As you pointed out, yes the SwissTool lines are Leatherman clones, but they’re also really good Leatherman clones with some of their own innovations. I don’t think it’s a bad thing for companies to push each other as long as they can afford it and keep working on their main lines.
Good point!
But I do fully agree that both companies could be innovating more on their main lines. Maybe you are right that they struggle to do both.
I want Roxon Flex to make it big and eventually make exchangeable plier head in Roxon Flex 2😅
That would be amazing!
Love them both for way different reasons. For a working tool I like Leatherman. For something smaller in my pocket and keychain I like Victorinox
Leatherman needs to improve the quality of their tools or lower the price.
I like my surge and my vic. When you buy multitools you always say: 'oh this is so great and versatile, but it could have {insert tool here} and it could be more compact and light if we remove {insert tool here}' so you keep buying. At a point you have to target for 90/10 and be happy.
Very true!
i would like a new stronger version of the juice
Definitely!
_"The Juice isn't worth the squeeze"_
Well, that's what they say about dating women in this era of hoeflation.
Yesterday I was pondering about EDC over the years. Until Leatherman came along, very few people who carried a pocket knife also carried pliers on them. Maybe 1 in a thousand? I recall seeing a vid about a farmer's Grandpop's old school EDC, the grandpa carried a Buck 110, slipjoint pliers, and a slotted screwdriver, and tackled all kinds of jobs with that setup. But the average grandpa probably only carried a folding knife, box of matches, and some string.
Leatherman costs on average 3-4 x what Victorinox costs, I'm not talking about the Swisstool/Spirit range, but bottom to top prices of the SAK range vs bottom to top prices of the LM range. However I am in the UK and here and in the rest of Europe LM are 1.5 to 2x as expensive as in the USA. So I think based on their respective annual turnovers you quoted, we can safely say that for every Leatherman out there, there are 6- 8 SAKs out there. Many of my work colleagues here in the UK also carry or at least own SAKs, I haven't met anyone else who owns a Leatherman. They are very rare here compared to in the USA and 90% of people have never even heard of the brand.
You can get a Super Tinker here in the UK for £22 which is $27-28. Or 25 Euros, or Swiss Francs. That's less than the price of a Domino's Salami Passion pizza and a 0.5 litre Pepsi, if you pick it up in a Swiss Domino's (delivery costs more). The minimum wage in that part of Switzerland is 23.90 Francs.
My Farmer X, which is heirloom quality and will outlive me, cost about the same as a Leatherman Squirt PS4 when it was on the market.
I think both brands are great and don't really compete with each other, except for the Swisstool/Spirit range.
Great perspective! Thanks for sharing!
You've hit on a VERY critical problem. Leatherman are CRAZY expensive outside the US and their global advertising is ZERO. Victorinox however is very similar price everywhere.
It's the same story here in Australia, the ARC is US$330, Surge & Signal are US$200, Wave is U$145. NOBODY buys them, people get a Gerber, SOG or a Chinese clone....
Plus saying "I like my Leatherman" could lead to all sorts of queer misundetstandings.
@@adamkane7513 That as well! That's actually something I've commented elsewhere, to say why Leatherman merchandise like hoodies caps etc. wouldn't sell here in the UK for example as hardly anyone knows the brand and most would indeed think it was some kind of fetish brand. In fact if you type into ebay UK '' Leatherman t shirt'' you get a bunch of fetish t shirts.
Man, trying to safely close the Buck 110 all those years was an experience I'll never forget. It definitely made you think before you opened it 😂
I enjoy carrying a plier based multitool, but I find them a little too chunky to carry all the time. And I guess that’s why I like Victorinox and I really like ROXON KS2 Elite very much. When I need something compact and very functional I will carry the ROXON.
Nice. Always great to hear different perspectives.
After carrying both for years doing multiple different jobs....leatherman is for actual real work while iv found victorinox is a handy tool in your pocket if your going out for dinner or to a dance. Yes I have lots of models of both and done everything under the sun with them
Good summary.
I don't know. The market for non-plier multi-tools is clearly there. I do love my KS2E. I think it's a pretty good sub for a swiss army knife if you're looking for big scissors. I just don't like the wood saw because it's far too small to be useful. Wish they swapped that out for a serrated blade, a three sided file, or something else moderately useful.
I just don’t see Victorinox being knocked off of the SAK hill anytime soon. They just have too much to offer at a decent price. It seems like Leatherman is closer to loosing their spot on their hill at the moment. Both companies have seemed kind of stagnant in developing things that people want though. Then it seems like too that Leatherman discontinues products people like. I don’t know if they think that will push more sales to the things they want to sell or what.
Very true.
Both refuse to make the toolset I want. 🤷🏽 My Ruike is as close as I can get.
Totally agree, indeed I'd like to see more Victorinox plier-based models, maybe with 1/4 inch bit holders or some innovation...
So I have been using both of at least was. I am using my SQT charge clone. I replaced the saw with a 3 sided file from a Flissa wave clone.
And I made my own Gerber arm bar out of a wave+ handle, a custom scalpel adapter, custom t- shank adapter, and a 1/4 in locking bit adapter. I bought all of these off AliExpress.
Very cool!
If the Gerber Dime had scissors equal to Victorinox I would think twice about carrying my Midnite Manager SAK. Conversely a plier tool in the 91mm size category doesn’t need a knife blade and scissors. I’ll choose a dedicated knife to carry for tasks that require it.
I'd love to see a collaboration between Leatherman and Victorinox. Obviously the hope is for more than a just a Charge+ with cellidor or alox scales- though I'd buy one if it that ever happens 😂. Leatherman pliers, Vic scissors and a mishmash of their best implements, maybe with some fresh redesigns mixed in. The modding community has proven there is desire/market for such a multitool so why not work together and blow the competition out of the water?
That would be awesome!
I would agree, they have no chance in the pocket knife market and should get back on track.
The worst part is that they're sidetracked with something they aren't even approaching properly or with much effort, from what I've seen every pocket knife type thing they've offered besides the old Crater has pretty much just been a halfassed thing made from half of a multitool.
I freaking love my Lockdown Pry. It pairs with the CenterDrive seamlessly. My son is trying to get me to go over to the Armbar but I love big tools. I know the vast majority of the plier community raves over pocketable tools but I have no problem with larger tools in my pockets or on my waist. Plus everyone always asks about my Lockdown when I use it to pop a Mexican coke bottle at a job site.
It is very cool!
@@hvacbudget8600 I’m pretty excited to see what else these companies are going to come out with next. I’m loving the current innovation, yes it falls short of being “perfect” but with some of these tools, I can tell they’re on the right track. However I do agree wholeheartedly about these companies needing to stay in their own lanes. I’m all for innovation and taking risks, but I’m not in support of them attacking a company that has not only been around longer and is more successful, but laid the foundation for the pocket tool industry in and of itself. 100% agree Gerber, Leatherman, SOG, need to back off Victorinox and let them do what they do best. Also Victorinox makes some pretty nice watches as well. But above my price point but highly recommended nonetheless
I have a SAK Explorer I keep in my pocket and a Leatherman Rebar I keep in my bag
Nice!
Am I crazy if I carry both? I like my leatherman skeletool with victorinox huntsman.
Best of both worlds!!
I have a pristine 1995 Leatherman Tool I still use daily and then a SAK little keychain one with the blade/file/scissors my grandpa bought in the late 1970s. Both were back when forced-obsolescence wasn’t a business model.
A premium Leatherman Surge, as in premium blade materials and overall build quality with a proper 1/4 inch bit driver.
My problem with both. I'm 55 have used both since the late 80s and 90s. My favorite was the crunch. But I found a small vise grip more useful and much cheaper.
Anyway my problem is the steel used. Victorinox is crazy soft with usually a horrible edge.
I wish one would actually use tool steel.
Think of it this way how many good plyers or visegrip is to rusty to use?
Stainless never makes a good plyer it's good for light duty is about it.
I don't know that nextool and a good visegrip would be better in every way. Just depends on what your use really is.
Now all that said I just got a bibury 19 and 1 to try. So I'm trying to be open minded again.
It's heavy so the nextool and visegrip probably weigh the same.
All things aside love your videos and your open minded about all the new stuff.
Thanks for watching!!
One thing that wasn't mentioned is that on top of the number Vic can produce, their QC is another big advantage. I'm having trouble thinking of another knife/multi-tool company (outside of the really high end stuff) where the thing in the box is exactly as I expect it.
Very true!
Totally agree. Leatherman should focus on plier based tools and Victorinox should focus on their tools. Both great companies but make things better with that they have already.
I've had myself a Gerber Truss for a about 2 years I think. Never really ended up carrying it because of it's weight and size. I think it's a great and effective tool but it was too cumbersome for how little I needed it.
Couple months ago I got curious for victorinox and got me a classic for on my keys. That was quite a revelation and spiraled a bit out of control. After looking for a great model for me I decided with the Tinker Deluxe because of it's size and still having a small pair of pliers. I have already all the tools in day to day life and quickly got me a second one.
And not soon after I bought me a mini champ for on my keychain. I was amazed at the quality and functionality of that model! :O (and it's just great fun to have)
Although I am looking at one of the mini plier based tools to get and try out. Still decided but I think my preference goes to the mini sailor.
Victorinox has a great lineup!
I've carried a Rebar in the field every day since 2019 (I'm a carpenter/remodeler who does everything from minor HVAC/electrical to framing and finish trim). LM excels at trade-grade , but they are bulky. That being said, I've carried a SAK Pioneer every day since 2009. The comparison for pocket carry is not even close. The Free T2 is pretty comparable to the Pioneer/old Soldier model, but is basically inferior in every way. The LM is limited to my work; the SAK goes with me everywhere.
That's neat to hear your perspective. Victorinox does an excellent job at making light tools.
I would LOVE if Gerber would do a plier based armbands. Smaller than the center drive. You were spot on with that. I carry the roxon KS2 elite and a sog powerpint daily. Previously carried a leatherman signal and t4. If leatherman would offer a scissor with the signal, I would carry that only. Nothing else compares to that signal for me
A Gerber Armbar plier tool is one of my dream tools!
we need leatherman tools with pliers that do not break with minimal force
And ones that arnt so stiff your grip strength increases by 100kg after using them for half an hour
I carry ths SAK Hiker. Works for me, particularly doing yard work.
Good price too.
Nice!
I run a SAK in tandem with a plier based tool
Makes sense!
I guess, LM makes non-plier based knives such as T4 only because it is easy to manufacture them due to unification within their Free series. Stamped scales plus molded plastic insert; all implements are unified with P2/P4 = profit! That is why they are so bulky if not awkward compared to VI.
Good point!
Leatherman are just copying Victorinox with the pretty colors.
But they don't understand that 99% of Women will never buy a Leatherman regardless of color.
It's just a cynical waste of time and money that should be spent on R & D....
In the everyday I.T. world pliers are just useless dead weight and bulk. I want a standard hexbit driver for phillips and torx/hex,scissors, & a blade. Gerber armbar drive gets that done. Both LM & SAK fall short with screwdriver heads that get chewed up. At least I don't break fingernails on the T4 accessing the tools plus all the LM tools lock.
Make them Modular!
Modular is key, there is a lot about modularity.
Modularity with implements and pliers will just be the greatest.
that leatherman magnet swiss army knife is like a god damn plymuth takes up 1/2 the highway. Maybe people carry it in bags now or something. its like a car that sits 4 people in the front
Pretty much.
Wondering what is going on with leatherman? I have messaged them asking if they will return the ratchet driver and the free P4. They keep saying they will return it however it’s still not on their website as being available. SOG kilowatt!! Not good for the industry, however, good for DIY at home. Love your channel and content!! Thank you for sharing about the MBT3, I use it a lot!!❤❤❤
Great! Thanks for watching!
Riddle me this, Vac Man: do you think it's viable to make a multitool with a screwdriver as the base platform?
There are a couple versions that do that and they always end up too bulky. Maybe if done right it could be cool.
I think the key to this is a combination of these tools with a plier multitool...really a personal choice depending on the customer...the market place determines what stays or what goes...V has been the leader because of its variety of offerings, quality of materials & its QC is second to none...LTG has lost its way, it does not listen to its base which got it there, appealing to collectors with big pockets...L's QC is almost non-existent & instead of innovation, they are concerned with what color pallette their tools are going to be...Both have raised their prices to an extent that you have to be really well-heeled to afford them...many people want a custom division to make up tools to their design, but it will not happen because it is too costly...hence modders such as yourself are present to take up the slack...Good video, thanks!😊
Thanks!
@@hvacbudget8600 you are most welcome!
For me non plier based multitools will have their place for EDC or when you want to use better pliers.
I think there is means to make thin pliers in some multitools while having something else than a the classic main needlenose.
To be honest I would like a series of trades focused multitools.
To tell when I use KS2E I have a 125mm knipex with me. This beats many great multitools because of the pliers. My main issue with the KS2 and this is where arm bars from Gerber wins is the lack of 1/4" on modern roxon.
Or I simply use my powerpint. And add knipex anyways.
Good point!
How many tools can you use at once? How much money do you have? They'll keep making more tools as long as you keep buying them.
Very true!
If I need a pocket knife, I would prefer Victorinox over single multitool handle.
It's always a hit & miss in the multitool world. Trying to balance ideas while making assumptions & presumptions is no small matter when it comes to whether a business stay afloat or crash & burn. It's all depends on mileage & stamina, who can stay underwater the longest. SAK did, that's why they are popular plus durability & affordable. It caters for white & blue collar workers to housewives to scouts & military applications. There's a few Defence Forces around the world that use SAK as standard tools. It had a history, tradition & culture. In time all the other high end multitool will have their day. But if they don't widen their horizon, the under dogs will catch up. Guranteed.! Cheers from Australia.
Great points!
👍🏼I have to have pliers on my multitool.
Yeah, that's how I've gotten as well.
I like carrying the Esee6 with a pliers base tool
I don't see a battle between the two.
Victorinox is the better tool. Way better manufactation.
Leatherman on the other side...I think Leatherman is way more specialized. If you want a tool for a certain purpose you probably have better chances to find a Leatherman that ticks all boxes or nearly all than Victorinox.
If we are talking about a battle between Leatherman and anyone: it's always about the Multitool with a pliar. Not the Swiss Army knife sutff. If you want a pocket knife...I have a Spiderco for that. Because it's so light when used to anything else you won't even feel it in your pocket. And it's legal if you are in an area with restricted weapon laws...I even was let into jail with it. For work.
Victorinox has maybe 2 or 3 versions of pliar based tools.
Back when I wanted one I ordered Leatherman and Victorinox. At the end I decided for a Leatherman because of the weight of the Wave and because the Wave has everything I need for everyday stuff.
I like to forget my tools in my car and I'm way too lazy to walk back to get what I forgot.
If Victorinox had a Multitool with a bit...maybe I'd decide differently. But I don't need too much stuff in my pockets...that I can loose. Victorinoxs bitdriver solution sucks.
Victorinox better quality, Leatherman more specialized.
I don't see a battle as both companies don't really have tools that cover the same area except all you want is "some tool".
Victorinox has far superior market saturation at a better price point. Also, the only Leathermans I've ever seen in stores are plier based. So if you walk into Ace Hardware and want a non plier based tool you only have one option and thats Victorinox.
True!
Victorinox > leatherman. Fight me 😂
Moje dwie ulubione firmy.Wenger i Victorinox. Od niedawna używam Swiss+Tech i Nextool,wygrywają na rynku multitooli ceną. Przegrywają jakością. Do codziennego edc noszę dwa z nich. Victorinox Climber i Nextool Mini Sailor. To mi wystarczy.
Sounds like you have a great multi-tool kit!
The war isn't between each other. The war iw between those making a better tool and $$.
Knipex plus Victorinox, KS2e, Nextool etc. problem solved.
Or Roxon Flex with only the tools you want inside.
I want a bar style Roxon Flex. Let. Me build a SAK like that is bladeless. I am a software engineer. I have no use for pliers. :-) But Victorinox does need competition.
From what I hear that is coming soon!
Victorinox did buy Wenger out. And Wenger Swiss army knives had the better scissors.
This is a L take. Let them fight. Innovation is truly born in conflict.
Innovation may be born out of necessity but also there is the idea of divide and conquer which seems to be what may happen to Leatherman. It may be divided by sundries interest and conquered.
I just carry both😂😂
That works too!
MacGyver only really used a Victorinox.
His most used model was the Spartan.
Just saying.
Yesterday I was pondering about EDC over the years. Until Leatherman came along, very few people who carried a pocket knife also carried pliers on them. Maybe 1 in a thousand? I recall seeing a vid about a farmer's Grandpop's old school EDC, the grandpa carried a Buck 110, slipjoint pliers, and a slotted screwdriver, and tackled all kinds of jobs with that setup. But the average grandpa probably only carried a folding knife, box of matches, and some string.
Knipex xs + any Victorinox beats any Leatherman
We need more non plier based multitools
SAKS are seperate from multitools for me- one doesn't replace the other
Good point and many people carry one of each. E.g. Rebar plus Compact/Climber, a bit of overlap/redundancy there but overall a good combination, Vic do scissors better than LM in my opinion.
But yesterday I was pondering EDC over the years. Until Leatherman came along, very few people who carried a pocket knife also carried pliers on them. Maybe 1 in a thousand? I recall seeing a vid about a farmer's Grandpop's old school EDC, the grandpa carried a Buck 110, slipjoint pliers, and a slotted screwdriver, and tackled all kinds of jobs with that setup. But the average grandpa probably only carried a folding knife, box of matches, and some string.
Hopefully, they will listen. However, companies like diversity in their income stream and the non-plier market is too big to ignore.
Very true!
They sell so many SAK because there are a metric shit-ton of variants, anyone can find something to suit their needs and most importantly, they all can fit in a pocket and they're non-threatening so even getting a knife blade out doesn't have people running from the room. Plier based tools are too big to carry in most situations, are just too much and getting one out has a lot of people asking WTF?
I've found SAK fairly crap; non-locking, awkward to use tools, shit I don't need to carry and the nail nick...just no. The T4 is better in every way, it's just there (pocket clip FTW) it's easy to open, use, put away and isn't full of shit like saws and corkscrews. But "it's not a plier" is all anyone says about it. Who is buying all those SAKs? People who want something to trim nails, cut paper and string, have a screwdriver handy. Pliers aren't everyday usage for most people (and there's a good argument that if you use pliers for work, you should be taking an actual pair of pliers instead of relying on a multi tool) so of course they're going to use "something I can carry" as their main criteria.
If leatherman want to sell more units, they need to sell to all the people, not just tradesmen and collectors. They can't do that with big multi tools packed with shit people don't need.
The customisable Roxxon will sell better to non-leatherman people because it fills a gap in the market, people who think they might need a set of pliers, but don't need a 2 inch saw, 2 knife blades, a pair of scissors because apparently 2 other things to cut with just aren't enough and really, really don't give a shit what steel it's made out of.
2 companies, both overpriced and underperforming, but still selling well due to fanboys.
In their plier-based models maybe; but I don't think Victorinox 58mm. series (like Ranger or Huntsman) or the Classic SD are overpriced multitools.
Victorinox are by no means at all overpriced! Even in North America you can get them for reasonable prices as far as I'm aware, since there are more brick and mortar stores stocking them on the shelves there than in Europe, so more competition keeping prices down.
You can get a Super Tinker here in the UK for £22 which is $27-28. Or 25 Euros, or Swiss Francs. That's less than the price of a Domino's Salami Passion pizza and a 0.5 litre Pepsi, if you pick it up in a Swiss Domino's (delivery costs more). The minimum wage in that part of Switzerland is 23.90 Francs.
My Farmer X, which is heirloom quality and will outlive me, cost about the same as a Leatherman Squirt PS4 when it was on the market.
@@simonh6371 sorry I'm not a native speaker and I'm not getting the point. What I'm trying to say is Victorinox small tools have a good price/quality relation in my opinion, better than Leatherman. For me Leatherman is overpriced.
@@710.84 Hi, I was actually replying to the commenter before you (OP) Skobeloff, he said that both companies are overpriced. You and I were both answering him and saying that Victorinox aren't overpriced. So we agree on that! Also I agree with you that Leatherman are overpriced. Especially here in Europe (I guess you are in Europe? or at least not in the USA?). Honestly Victorinox are the absolute best value for money. Look at the Huntsman, and then look at the Bokerplus Tech Tool equivalent with scissors and saw. It's made in China - yes the steel is better than Vic steel - but costs twice as much. Also some of the tools on those Tech Tools are a bit meh like the belt cutter which is supposed to double as a Phillips but that looks a bit precarious....the Vic can opener is way better for Phillips screws. Not as good as the inline. That's the other thing about Vic, we have so much choice. More than other pocket knife manufacturers.
@@simonh6371 oh sorry! I didn't pay attention to the username and made a mess. Yes, I'm from Spain. And couldn't be more agree; where I feel the more quality advantage respect of Chinese tools is in the metal files, I've been carrying a Ranger for years and stills getting the job done but the Chinese files don't even work with my finger nails.