personally i feel like knowing and understanding this actually HELPS with the learning side of my games. so many games feel helpless, other games feel like i could’ve afked and won. now i understand exactly why. understanding all this helps compartmentalise the hell that is soloQ so i’m less confused when it’s a mess, and just focus on myself anyway. if it’s a loss it’s a loss, win it’s a win but what could i have done different? of course this ‘should’ be a given, but again just understanding that all these factors actually do exist, for me personally reduces the frustration because i actually get it now. take the L when the system fucks you and keep the improve mental only going cheers beast
I appreciate you making this video actually. It's refreshing to visit how many factors are at play in a ranked game. Certainly not as simple as it feels sometimes.
NA GM mid here who hit chall for the first time this split. My alt is now my main which is just kinda crazy to think that after putting in thousands of games learning and improving your best bet is to make a new smurf with “fresh” mmr and it will make climbing exponentially easier. Thats a problem. I just wish each split reset everyones MMR harder. Played DotA 2 and HoN at a high level and it was impossible to “mess up” your mmr like you can in league and it was easy to tell this due to visible mmr number on profile as well as visible mmr gains/losses. Just food for thought nice vid curtis ❤
I've been hardstuck in gold 4 and high silver since I started playing, (2013, I play on and off since then). I never played more games because the amount of games needed to climb was just INSANE. Well, I started a fresh account and I got gold 3 in 10 games. I just straight wasted thousands of games (?)
@AbrainboomO so you ended up at the same elo what's the problem, you just didn't improve past being a gold player after thousands of games no problem with that
@@elvis4868 Just wrong though. My alt is diamond 2 71% wr while my main is 78% wr emerald 1 with double the amount of games. If that doesn't tell you something.... Prior performance wether it be due to not trying hard enough or lack of games in previous splits is literally making it harder to climb.
The biggest problem is that people have 0 understanding of what team compositions work and what dont. Most people are picking to win lane not to win the game. Classic example is Teemo top, which yeah in right hands wins many lanes, but most of the time ruins the team composition by having no frontline and CC whatsoever.
u can have frontline and cc in jungler and/or supp. am not teemo player. people just queue up ranked with a champ in mind and they dont care about team compositions, or what enemy team is picking. i think player just dont care about ranked or climbing. they lost they lost, now riot is to blame because for low win rates accs they actually lose same lp that they gain on wins, this is bad.
@wolvewick4414 that is ONLY supposing if jungle and support have picked before the teemo top pick AND if they have actually picked a front line tank or CC champ. The problem with the Teemo pick is that even if your team has the front line and cc and your top locks in teemo, quite literally the enemy top can go a rudimentary top lane choice and beyond the laning phase the game is lost because anyone below gold really doesn't understand macro and how to push properly or manage waves. The Teemo top pick is a classical low ego, high ego, low iq pick that destroys games. It's almost never a good pick unless your understanding of macro is much higher in which case your not in the lower elos and you already understand this point and likely aren't picking Teemo Top.
@@elvis4868 True, but it is so infuriating :O However, I do think that because of this, in general it is easier to have a higher winrate if you play frontliner top/jungle/support yourself because then the variance lands on your favor more often. Most of the games I lose is because enemy team had a frontline and we didnt. Easiest to climb with a bruiser because then your team always has some form of a frontline AND you can still carry games by killing people yourself. Climbing with OTP Teemo top is way harder because Teemo top ruins most team comps so you are ruining the variance for yourself statistically speaking vs picking a champ that benefits most team comps.
@tikari3987 yeah pretty much, you have to be better than your opponents to play ranged toplaners, I've seen drututt play shit like aphelios top and carry but he's just too good at the game so it doesn't matter, I think tho if someone has a 50% winrate on teemo top that prolly means if they played like garen instead they would be one rank higher, it's like me playing zed, if I just played malzahar I would be one rank higher but I enjoy zed so idc
My biggest issue right now is the fill system. I understand they're looking into making it better for 2025, but it doesn't fix the problem. The obvious reason this is a problem is because imagine 1 player get's filled jungle but doesn't know how to play it but the other teams jungle gets filled and knows how to. This should never ever happen and I'd rather wait 10% on average for a que than anyone forced into roles.
I feel like every time I get auto filled to jungle I get a lot of kills because I can understand wave management/match ups etc, but I’m so unfamiliar with the mini game that is jungle, that I have a hard time not falling off. I believe this is the one role that shouldn’t be autofilled. It should only go to people who first or second pick it bc the important of having a competent jungler can’t be stressed enough.
Honestly? Best solution is to refuse to have fills until higher up on the ladder. What I mean is bronze and silvers shouldn’t be getting filled when they barely understand 1/5th of their OWN role much less others. At a certain point the higher you go the more you should be able to handle but also the rarer games are, so it’s a good idea to have fill.
@@shibaraccoon8740 It's actually other way around. You may think a higher elo player who auto-filled will do just fine because the higher your mmr the better you know about the game and each role but actually he will be hard punished because in lower elos, your mistakes will go unpunished while in higher elos, every single mistake counts. I play mid primary, sup secondary in master elo and I will dodge every single game I auto-filled because the worst jungle in my elo literally outclasses me in every single aspect of that role.
@@vert1 jungle and support are the lowest picked roles, so they have to get autofilled the most. people don't like supp bc adcs treat them badly, and people don't like jgl because laners spam ping you every time they die and say nasty things. the only exception is in jgl if you OVERGANK (which usually loses the game in the long run) they wont constantly harass you. I agree though, enemy jgl is autofill is usually a free win for me since they never full clear and then gank, they always ruin their econ in the long run you can beat them just by full clearing and ganking like a silver. autofill jglers are the worst
there are EASY junglers though like karthus or diana, who usually just want to full clear asap and then do things on down time. but most people pick the hard junglers like VI to autofill and play on but on a champ like vi your macro has to be PERFECT or you lose sometimes to just 1 good lulu and a lack of econ. its hard for laners to even gauge how hard the jungle is to play without a lot of matchup experience
I've noticed this for years now, I play support and when I stomp bot lane, and it is clear the enemy support is really awful at the game, my top lane ends up feeding 9/10 times. SpearShot even memes about it, when he loses lane he says 'its fine bot lane will get kills and carry, it happens every time I die'
My experience is top or mid or jgl get diffed hard and now they're invading and stomping my lane and now I gotta play catch up while my team feeds more lol. At this point queueing for a match is a coinflip rather then actually using skill
That's natural gameplay. Having one losing side of the map means needing to focus on the other side, basically they need to avoid the lane that's snowballed into oblivion at all costs and create the same snowball effect crossmap for their team if they want a chance at winning the game. The second your bot lane goes 5/0, your Top now has a huge target on its back because it's now automatically the enemy's safest play to invest in. From Spearshot's perspective, imagine he's fed a snowbally champion like Darius, Riven, Illaoi; you're forced to play elsewhere and leave them alone because they can easily 1v2 you, so naturally you make plays bot lane as the Jungler or Mid. Since you play Support you can actually impact the game heavily with this knowledge by being inside the head of the enemy Jungler since you know he wants to avoid bot after you stomp it, and roaming at good times to prevent his reactionary crossmap plays, especially if you're setting wave states where your ADC can comfortably 1v2, it's all very champion dependent though.
@@Rayonnant_style I guess yes, I will start doing the cross map thing in my games and see if it works. But Spearshot and myself, when I say we win lane I mean we get no jgl help its 1v1 kills or 2v2 kills bot lane, and after that it is true in my games the jenemy gl comes to gank and we can usually 2v3 or at least oneshot the jgl and make it a even 2v2 I played a lot of rank in season 8 and I do remember having a lot of games where every lane was won and even the jungler was fed and we would stomp the enemy very fast. The rare times I get 3 winning lanes now the jgler is feeding and useless and always solo loses the game, I have no idea how that is possible but it happens. I just rarely see those complete stomps I used to see years ago, but also I play less summoners rift than before so might be a sample size issue.
i play jgl. dude if i get a good supp its game over i literally get lvl 4 and then hold their hand. if they dont go UP to mid/top i fullclear gank bot again. if they DO, i literally gank > shop > gank, and then still gank bot after i farm some camps. if enemy jungler starts bot to top clear it is SO easy to force a VERTICAL/free dive situation where he has to gank top and i have to gank bot. literal freelo edit: this doesnt start happening til around plat, but if it doesn't, you can call for assistance! most supports/junglers LOVE to gank and fight
Not gonna lie, the current state of ranked feel like the worst thing I experienced ever since I started playing it. I took a little break and started the split 1 month after the reset, now I am screwed, playing in lobbys with mentaly broken ex emerald and gold hardstuck and it turns me into just another mentaly broken ex emerald player cause the level of play is just so much worse than what I had before the reset and It just feels god awful to play and watch. I am an Emerald player as described in your podcast. I know what is good, I know what is bad. I hit top 10th percentile of player base and I consider myself shit anyway cause I know how much I do wrong. My biggest problem not getting further in Emerald was mental. So I took a break, now I am back, having to play gold elo games and it broke me in record time. I am probably one of the highest mmr players in those games, and I can't perform because I mentaly break cause I can't cope with the quality I am experiencing. I only played rank to stay fit and improve for amateur competitive scene. I wanted to get a decent rank to find a decent team, but with the current affair of things I just can't even get myself to press play cause it just feels so aweful being stuck in games that are below your level of play. I make like +34 -16. I should get out of there at least partly in no time at all, but it just hurts to much to play.
I'm in Emerald playing with broken ex Diamonds and Masters who are now stuck here like me. The difference is that I was Emerald before, then improved so I'm Emerald again after the changes. They were "high elo" last split and now "pisslow" because that's how the system works now. I can only imagine how ruined their mentals are.
All I can say is to just stop letting your ego get in your way and just enjoy smurfing in gold until you climb back up. Yeah, your team will be bad, but opponents are also bad. You won't win every game for free but you should be easily gapping the hard stuck golds making games very winnable for yourself.
Funny to me, as a data analyst, it actually wouldn't be that hard for Riot to account for OTP or counterpick stuff in determining MMR/LP gain/loss for a gain. They have enough data available to them to include that information in the calculations.
Maybe they do and that's why LP gains and losses sometimes seem inconsistent. Doesn't detract from the difficulty of these games or them happening though.
@Zevrael definitely not, and wasn't trying to imply that. But you can tell their algorithm doesn't even take into account time on a champ when you see pairings with massively different champ Mastery levels. Even in lower ELO games, someone with a higher Mastery is going to be better in general.
But that's my point, it *can* take that into account, it would just have to be programmed in a way to do so. That's why I made the point of saying I am a data analyst. I know it can be done, I can think up half the code in my head right now. Can't really do much more without access to their system though, so not like I can volunteer to do it for them. 😆
@@TheNekofanatic At the time of making the match, you don't know which champions are going to be picked and banned. The only thing you can do is estimate some percentage for how often a player gets his champion and adjust accordingly. But that makes each individual game more unbalanced in favor of long term statistics, because the player is going to be significantly stronger than assumed when he gets his champion and significantly weaker when he doesn't. If you don't adjust, his performance will match the skill level of the game in a larger share of his matches, leading to a better experience most of the time for everyone.
But… why doesn’t the ranked system just let people play to rise and fall as they may? Matchmaking based on MMR is fine but the system trying to put people where it “thinks they belong” is stupid
It's not if you think about it. If the system tries you out and realizes you perform they can get you to the rank you belong faster, which means you ruin less games in the process.
@ That’s the thing. “The rank you belong.” Why even have this ranked system? Just list everyone by their MMR and be done with it if that’s how you all view ladders. Let people rise and fall as they may. All of this stuff tweaking LP and rigging matchups to favor one side over another, it’s all bullshit
@@erynpimentel915 I mean sure, but it would be an EVEN BIGGER problem then. Nothing would stop you from making new account and climbing all the way from low elo to your peak slowly ruining dozens/hundreds games because you don't get more LP than others. Every elo would be filled with smurfs and all game would be coin flip of who has more smurfs. Similar to how it is now I guess, but worse
I might add that every player will have many factors like tiredness, tilt from other games, family stuff, maybie conxentration, different goals and views about the game. This just shows how hard it is to balance teams for the system, as just a few random factors (esp in high elo, way higher than i will ever reach :D) can turn the tide of the game, multiple times even. For example, just yesterday i had a game where we were 11/28 at 15 minutes, but keeping calm, farming, giving drakes and playing around my team wincon, saying no to our inting supp (1/14) calls made us last 30 minutes and start sweeping their team every time some enemy tried to split, resulting in desynchronised enemy death timers (aka theres's always someone dead) took us the win, nearly 40 min in, even with nexus towers open, my jg opponent with 2M points on shyv, enemies higher by few ranks on avg (diamond, plats and bronze vs full silvers). I think concentrating on doing your job in the team, playing around resources and not fearing enemy skill/rank or champ "counters", having clear goals really helps :)
the biggest issue with matchmaking is that they match lobbies via avg mmr not position to position mmr that results with for eg gap on less important role in favor of one team but also gap on more important role in favor for other team on other role I mean worse support won't be as crucial as gapped jungler if it would be matched role to role it wouldn't even be a problem to have like high plats and low diamonds within one lobby
maybe gapped support matters more it depends on the mmr I think. Also team comp. The other day we were massively support diffed but they had a full ad teamcomp, 3 assassins, and the supp was pyke. THey lost. But the supp diff was huge.
This is also explained purely by RNG and the fact that Riot makes games before champ select and not after. A lot of players have their MMR based on their 75% of games with their good champs but then 25% of their games they'll pick one of their bad champs for whatever reason. Riot doesn't need to do anything intentionally and this will occur.
yh I feel like this is very true too. I play a lot of ARAMs and a few years ago I'd play at night with a friend, and we had this motto 'we can't end on a lose' and we played every night and after midnight we would lose the vast majority of games, a lot of times I stayed up all night just trying to get a win, other times I'd hop on my smurf and then get teammates that carry you and you stomp the enemy, probably because their matchmaking knew this account doesnt play much and isn't gonna play for 3 hours chasing a win
@@bennyharvey8436 they do, they have 3 patents on EOMM, and you can find them online. The first one if i remember is from 2015. Just tell me why wouldn't they use it? They are a multibilionaire company and their game is free to play ( so the players are the product) it would only make sense that they would find a way to make the players play as much as possible. If they let you reach your true rank fast you might stop playing.
@@bennyharvey8436 This very system is just that. You are thrown around on the easy/hard scale every game. It's obviously not as bad as some people say but getting win/lose streaks solely based on teams you get is happening across all ranks.
It is nice to know that higher elos suffer from the same matchmaking as what I deal with in iron. However, I do think there is a difference. In gold or diamond or whatever you can reasonably expect both champs in a lane to know how to play. You can also reasonably expect that they aren't first timing a champ in ranked. In iron you can't expect that, so when you get a skill disparity in a lane, they don't even have the knowledge or sense enough to try to just maintain. I liked the explanation. I actually kind of wish the system wouldn't try so hard to balance across game in iron and maybe bronze. If I am the high MMR support, and they have the high MMR top, I can't not influence the game nearly as effectively as they can. This goes double if you pick a support like leo that is all about support and cant really operate on her own.
I agree the matchmaking rabbit hole is deep, specially if you start considering match histories of your teammates. For me, that's why I let the AI do that for me just to avoid having to think about it
60% wr for 100% effort doesnt pay out, very "nice" ranking system. Even though it's also true I just OTP Ahri and that might be why I lose more than if I played with more champions and roles.
i noticed on my main, (context: I made the account 5 years ago, played until level 30, but didnt really learn it properly, was just there for the vibes with friends, quit due to uni, that's pretty much it). In 2022 i decided to try ranked out of nowhere (i had still little mechanics and game knowledge). I got placed in bronze II and stayed there but only did like 20 games of ranked. I decided to play again 4 weeks ago, but this time I decided to learn the fundamentals and try to master a champ to some extent. I got placed in iron IV and keep getting +25 LP for a win and -25 for a loss, with my below 50% winrate i pretty much stay on 0 LP. Now I made an alt because at the time I didn't think I deserve this. Since many players there are mechanically good but their macro sucks. On this alt, I keep getting matched up with and against low to high bronze, and sometimes even silver players. Overall i'd say I don't do that bad in those matches, i try to apply the stuff that I learned from youtube and get my 6-7.5 cs/min. I'm not level 30 yet so I can't say that I'm bronze yet, but if I compare this to normal draft games on my main: i get matched up with and against the bottom of the barrell, new players, or straight up inters and i got 75% win rate in normal draft over 100 games on Orianna. What I don't understand is that I play the same champ on both accounts (Orianna), apply the same principles yet it's so different on the two accounts. I don't really care about my rank that much, it's just that I feel like I'm learning waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more on the alt compared to the main account. note/edit: I consistently get matched up with bronze players now (mostly B3-B1)
This was a good listen. As a very casual player it’s still really interesting to get some hard earned insight into Riot’s match making system for what on-paper is an attempt at a fair match. The human condition will always add a level of chaos that would make match making take an unbearably long time for most normies. 👍🎮
this is all correct, getting counterpicked, having your champion banned, having people swap pick order all can change the outcome of a game significantly, because the matchmaking cant account for that, it doesnt matter if your team has the worse players winrate wise, matchmaking already accounted for that. honestly this is one of the best videos hes ever done, much better than bbc videos. when we still could check our teams in champ select it didnt actually do much, if you check your team, they will always have low winrates and if they have high winrates the enemy team will likely have a smurf or also high winrates, it did nothing even back then. what happens during champ select has a bigger impact on the outcome of the game than the winrates of teammates, because those are accounted in the matchmaking, the champions being played is not, unless there are otps.
They have the data on the champs you usually ban and the champs and comps you win with and lose with. They assess that for everyone and matchmake in a way that will either fk you over or fk over the enemy. They also know who's likely to tilt and become ineffective. All of these things are used by riot to predict/control the games
i wonder if their changes to champ select (picking a role) cursed the game. matchmaking felt better back in the day when pick order was based on player mmr and you were expected to play most roles to a degree.
There is 100% something wrong with the ranked system but i dont know what it is. My main was master its now emerald 1 i did mess around a little start of season but still games were players from similar ranks but just unplayable. I made a smurf im 31-12 in diamond 2-3 games so im now higher than my main and games feel easier I think people were inflated and we got deflated but i think all the bought accounts and boosted people also were in that so that low/mid/high emerald is disgusting and same for plat. My last 2 games vs d1 top laners were 5/1/8 and 9/2/4 the games becoming easier to me again i think the system is actually just corrupt.
i think the matchmaking is all about winstreaks, if you play on your main, you will likely not get an easy winstreak, since if you were smurfing you would not be at that rank anymore at the end of the season, if you create a new account its easier to build up a winstreak which will lead to easier games. you dont just get more lp for good mmr, you straight up get easier games as well, that is how the matchmaking works and has worked for ages, its all about making people create as many accounts as possible, to make people buy exp boosts and skins, it all makes sense.
I've definitely experienced the weird matchmaking thing you're talking about on smurf accounts. I also had some games vs diamond players when my account I was hand leveling was around level 20
This is largely explained because throughout almost all of League's history your ranked MMR was completely separate from your normal MMR. So you could have a diamond player who barely has any normal summoner's rift games played (when they leveled the account perhaps they only played ARAM or bot games or perhaps were actually a new player and haven't played since they got good). Then they randomly play a normal game to practice something and are much better than everyone else. Riot has recently said they are going to start tying ranked MMR to normal MMR to prevent these situations.
At what point does solo queue become more about which team got the “better” mismatch in players? Like, if I get the “better” support and the enemy team gets the “better” jungler, is it fair that I (the top laner) just lose because their mismatch was in a more impactful role? As much as I would love to turbogap my laner and carry every game, I simply cannot do it 100% of the time, especially if my enemy is as good or better than me.
I feel like very little of this applies to anything below D2, ESPECIALLY the scenarios you listed while talking about the different levers and pick order/CP potential. There are very few players below D2 that even think about either of these two things, and the lower you get, the worse it becomes. Hell, even in mid-plat (mid-range, MAYBE the lowest of the high-range MMR) games, I have seen people *literally* picking champions they have NEVER played before. As an adc, mid-range MMR is possibly the worst place to be. Lower MMR is easy enough to carry through without any real effort or even team coordination. Higher MMR your teammates perform better overall, allowing you to coast into 3 items more often/easily, and from there you can start to carry. In the mid-range MMRs, players aren't good enough to know what to do at almost any point in the game, but also have the arrogance in that they're above the low MMR range, so they start to think they know everything and can do no wrong, when really they don't. That makes it harder for you, as an adc, to climb because they will not listen to pings, they will go for what I call "hero plays" oftentimes that end in them just inting the game away since a single death late game is sometimes just gg, or whatever else. They don't understand that the later the game goes, the more important it becomes to not die and to keep your adc alive/safe. I played jungle and support to Masters a couple seasons in a row. Wanted to learn adcs and get there with adc as well, and it was a NIGHTMARE going through high Gold through low Diamond. I was effectively autopiloting/coasting through those ranks as jungle and support... and I'd like to think that I'm not just a trash tier adc with bad mechanics or decision making, since I did end up making it to Masters and I am top 100 NA on Caitlyn, Vayne, and Kaisa. ALSO, I can personally attest to the randomness being a very real consideration. I work rotating shiftwork, so I play at all times of day, depending on where I'm at on my work rotation. I have noticed that games after roughly 1am until about 7 or 8am for my time zone are SIGNIFICANTLY worse quality than games at say 2pm until about 8pm. I would assume that is because players are queueing up while either drinking or already being drunk. That's the only real conclusion I could come up with. But my win percentage in the games at night was *literally* 15% less than my win percentage during my daytime games. That was crazy to me.
I would JUST LOVE if you can see who is autofilled, offrole, etc. Without using Porofesor 😅. BUT not after the match Starts, i want all that on the champ select screen and also the enemy team
got a friend who recently started playing ranked. he's play 20 games. not a lot, not a few. he was talking to me about how he's got a 20% winrate. i decided to look at his games after he sent me a screenshot where his team only had players with below 30% winrates and the enemy team had 50-60+% winrates. i look at his previous games and the players and deduced he had TWO games with ONE PLAYER in each that had an above 50% winrate where as the enemy team had 14 games with people consistently above 50% winrates, with 2 games eking out 70-80% winrates. some people enjoy jumping to "you are the only consistent in the game" but it's kinda hard to use that when statistically he's been absolutely dealt a bad hand 16 out of 20 games. i have *never* seen this before and it made me laugh.
This is how it works. If you want to test this out, just have an account where you play one Ranked game per day at roughly the same time of day. Play more casually, don't go crazy try-hard mode. After one month you will realize that all your wins cluster together, and so will your losses. For one week or so you will win 70-80%. The following week you will barely win. And the cycle will repeat infinitely. I know because I have several accounts and have tried this out.
If you play perfect every game, you have around 60% chance to win and climb. That means you have to give 100% of yourself and only recieve 60% of your effort. To me it's not worth it. You face dynamic trolling in league be from derankers, be from people that are soft inting, or just straight up facing boosters and dumbing down your lp. It's not a fair game and if you flame the guy that int you recieve the punishment. I much rather play a casino game, you have a higher chance to win there.
Okay, but then why are there people with 80-90% win ratios when they take over low mmr accounts? Why are there people at the top of the ladder with 70% with ratios? There's definitely ways to influence most games to be wins, its just the average player will never be that skilled.
@@alexrosario423 Well yes there are people with 80-90% win ratios on fresh acc's, because their main is high elo, like Challenger and they play a couple of games and have high rating on the new acc's. Most people however don't have that much time to give in the name of climbing the ladder. Especially at low elo if you don't snowball early there is very high chance that you lose the game. Why do I have to play like Diana mid and hunt for kills when I want to be Yuumi or Soraka? This game has over 160 champs and it's pretty unbalanced. You can climb elo with one champ then they nerf it and you have to learn another. I'll give you an example with chess - it's very simple game there are no champs but there are pawns, there is structure, there is opening, and yes there is endgame. Playing league is like rolling dice every time you click that play button. It's ultimately flawed.
that's if you only care about winning, I care about playing well, If I play well and I still lose it doesn't matter, I wpgg the enemy and I feel good about myself
the match making is actually more chaotic than that. Imagine a room made of 200 students of biology. Even tho they're almost the "same" level of studying. The best student outperform really hard the lowest one. Now imagine there is 200 players in your elo. And in it, there is like 40jgler main (20% of the players (this sounds already crazy). now imagine that most jgler are pretty bad, like on 200 there ranked between 140-180. But some of them, the top 5 players of the 200 are jgler. And the matchmaking take 1 of the "low average jgler" for team A and the "top of the rank" for the team B. But wait, actually the low average jgler just disconnect of team A so the riot bot take another player autofilled. But wait the autofilled jgler of Team A take the main champ of the carry good jgler of the team B. But wait the jgler of Team A forgot to take smite because he's not main jgl. but wait Team A comp' is way better than the ennemy one. But wait Team B midlaner low rank is actually a smurfer and start to 1v9 the game. But he got a message. His girlfriend had an accident. He goes afk. But wait, the ADC of Team A that is playing good can't be pilled anymore because the supp has lag. Team B Adc start carrying but his wireless mouse died. Actually mid and jgler of team A are both good player but one want to play conservative and the other dont so the alchemy is bad and they lose. This is all what can happens. If there is "1/10" chance something goes wrong it's ok. Imagine there is "1/10" chance, a player got lag. This is not a lot. But if there is 10 players, the odds gets higher and higher. if you have a dice with 1/10 chance of getting 10. It's not a lot, but if you keep throwing the dice again and again, and again. Then eventually you might reach it. If league was 5v5 where player had all the same roles. They could swap really easily. But they all have a particuliar, role and a particuliar champ there familiar with, and it can get banned or picked by the ennemy. And imagine, there is 200 players (closest to your rank). Maybe the most average are not connected at the moment and only the more extrem (higher, and lower than you) are connected. Riot can't make you wait 5, 10, 20 mins before a lacking average jgler in your team start to connect. So they take autofill, etc, etc. if there is lets say 50 jglers that are close to your rank. And your team need one. Some might be disconnected, some might have lags, or suddenly disconnected, some might be drunk, some might be tilt by previous game, some might be main banned or picked by the ennemy, some might be afk because of emergency for the most climatic moment of the game, some might just have bad alchemy with your own gameplay, or composition. Each time you're assuming something can go wrong, you roll the dice once more.
Until they implement a sophisticated system for analysing your individual performance relative to your lane opponent, the game will continue to feel unrewarding for the majority of players. Currently, you can outperform your opponent in every single objective metric, but the only thing that the system cares about is which nexus exploded. They already have a system in Valorant where your individual performance can mitigate your LP losses. They need to bring it over to League so that this community can get back to enjoying the game.
I was wondering if they take into consideration lose streaks. Somebody that lost consistently 4 games in a row must be tilted/boosted/playing while tired or anything like that so he is a big negative factor to his team. It's not just a "lower mmr", probably it's also a game ruiner and the system, I suppose, takes that into consideration.
champions. everyone are mostly picking whatever they want. if people were dedicated to climb we would get picks like in the esports 90% of the time since everything you need to win is to win a teamfight
The problem is Riot allowing people to get to X rank without understanding the game holistically , just by spamming a single pick/role. IMO best thing that could ever happen to the game is hard reset of ladder + no more role queue. With that you get to actually measure a player's skill at THE GAME, not at how well they can abuse onetricking, say, yone to master. We all know this is never happening, but i'm a firm believer it would improve game quality A LOT in the long run. This would also help a lot with champ pool and champion understanding, just feels like playing with role queue creates HUGE biases that are hard to account for when the system is creating the lobbies. My 2 cents. ALSO, why don't we have voice chat? legit question here, I feel riot has been pushing for team oriented play for a LONG while now, but still refuses to enable proper comunication....
Does this affect the non-ranked games as well? I've been running into a lot of games where I am trying to learn a new champion and the entire team will have double or higher the champion mastery level as anyone on my team.
Saying they can’t predict things like how comps get picked I fully disagree. It’s 100% within their behavior to build a team in matchmaking toward certain directions ie….multiple split push champ mains on one team of….multiple high skill difficulty champs on another. In my smurfing I can say with good confidence that champ difficulty on said team is the single greatest factor in determining the win% of that team.
Little bro you contradict yourself so hard. Your smurfing is proof that "champ difficulty ... is the single greatest factor in determining the win". Riot has no idea what champion is going to be picked / banned / traded on either side. You really think that Riot should stack 10 players with a bias to not only a role, but champion, play style, and team comp? What happens when you want to learn a new champion? What are you even on about?
They should add Champion Ranks or atleast Role Ranks. That way you can play other roles without feeling shit about being too bad on that role due to your accounts rank like it is now.
that is the conclusion that was in an old video he made in the past, the one that he DOESN't want people to oversimplify into. The reason why he put that huge disclaimer on the beginning of the video
The 40-30-30 comes from viewing the game as 5 independent lane matchups, each lane either wins or loses, and you win if your team has 3 or more winning lanes. Maths: Each of your teammates have 2 outcomes, win or lose against their counterpart. There are 2^4 = 16 possibilities for how your teammates win or lose and in 6 of those possibilities there are 2 teammate wins and 2 teammate losses. These 2-2 games are where you become the deciding factor. Thus, you are the deciding factor in 6/16 = 37.5% of your games. Of course this is an oversimplification of the game and doesn't include two players in bot lane, how some lanes will snowball harder than others, and how jungle affects other lanes. As for the 40 to 60% winrate comment, anybody who is consistently losing their lane would have a 30% winrate based on the math above but losing so many games would eventually put you at a rank where you are even with your opponent, unless you fall all the way to iron 4. Smurfs can get over 70% winrates because they are so much better than their opponents that even if the enemy has two winning lanes, the lower mmr players won't have as much of a lead nor the skill to snowball that lead compared to the smurf.
There are so many ways to fix the match making gaps. They just need to implement them. There is a basic concert that can solve this and they don't implement it. Solo queue is not a team game. No one plays really as team. In higher elo they just try to struggle more with the team. MMR should be based on personal player ranks. You already have the mechanism. Just implement it. If player is not related to the level of the rank. He will get low grades and reduce MMR. If bronze player plays silver game. And score S+ he is probably not a bronze player.
Coach Curtis on the 3nd stage of grief: Bargaining. He's beginning to realize the game is rigged and looser queue exists. I could elaborate on what it's purpose is (trash feeders having 50% winrate because they bought a skin, they gotta have fun too) but why would I.
He is missing a few scenarios that have been common place in my games for many, many years: You just came back to the game and LoL has no MMR decay in normals so you can't practice without being stomped or jumping straight into ranked while super rusty, your teammates are high and/or drunk, you are high and/or drunk lol (been sober 17 months now), and many other external things that make the game much harder. The best way to climb is to learn the conceptual ideas people put on TH-cam for free and try to fight your ego. If you don't feel entitled, you will climb. It sounds counterintuitive, but think about how well you do something when people are watching. Pressure affects performance tremendously. You are the one who actually creates that pressure. If you have 15,000 fans watching you and wanting you to win, but you DGAF while in your game, you will play better than when you are alone believing the world, Riot, and your jungler hate you. Obviously being impaired is in your control, but when you have 4 teammates, and 5 enemies, there is a whole host of things going on that is beyond what Riot can account for. If you believe you are stuck in any situation in your life, then you are. "You can't win if your white flag's out when the war begins." - Einstein
I come back to the game all the time and it takes like 2 Arams for me to get back into it , this game doesn't even change. It's only issue for OTPs who suck at the game playing anything else while in specific patch their OTP is weak.
Don't worry about harming the community. You've curated a specific kind of viewer who will 9/10 agree with you with 0 objections. Anyone who would potentially be harmed by this video is not watching it.
It’s really interesting how content creators tout that leagues system works as intended, but there’s hundreds of cases of players making alt accounts and getting 5-10x their main accounts rank, or instances where a good player smurfs but gets hardstuck low elo and goes next account. Idk for a system that works as intended and finds your skill quickly and accurately, there’s an awful lot of inconsistency and random shenanigans that occur.
It's content creator cope. They need to tell themselves that it was worth climbing and therefore need to tell themselves that the ranked system is correct. They're blind to reality in the same way low elo players blame their team. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Humans make flawed systems INCLUDING THE RANKED LADDER. Humans also don't act perfectly or consistently, including your gameplay during your ranked climb. It's possible for bad players to wind up in high elo and good players to wind up in low elo. It's just more likely that you will climb if you focus on the things you can control, since that's the only thing you CAN do. (And sometimes that includes making a new account)
Climbing 5-10x their elo yes maybe, but how about playing keeping that elo consistently, after around 20-25 games in that elo? what about a 100 or 200 games? Will you still have that inflated rank after climbing with a new account and then actually keep playing? Or will you start sinking to your old elo again?
@@timothymcphail this is such a delusional take, what evidence do you have to suggest a matchmaking system based on putting similarly skilled players up against each other every game is not fair? Anecdotal evidence of a few people being higher or lower than they should be proves nothing. If you are a challenger player in silver you will not struggle, if you perform every game you will climb, because obviously dominating the map and making the enemy team unable to play the game will impact the game, how can you pretend that its just chance, literally how can you watch TF Blade smurf through low elo on a thousand different accounts over and over again and then act like its luck based? it makes literally no sense.
What does 5-10x their main account rank even mean? Have you considered that players who play on smurf accounts may play the game in a different way than on their main? If you take a diamond mid laner and put them in plat, they are going in with a belief that they are a naturally superior player in every way. Given this belief, it's highly unlikely they will approach the game with the same amount of risk assessment and confidence as they would with players in diamond. They know that they can afford to be sloppier because their natural ability and decision making will afford them more opportunities to win the game. They will likely play aggressive, or in ways that they wouldn't on their main account. Next, consider their teammates. In addition to their own individual style, they have certain expectations of how teammates will act. What seems like an obvious decision for a support to roam or a top laner to lane swap isn't so intuitive. This can be frustrating for the smurfing player and feeds their feelings of superiority even more because the obvious plays their teammates should be making don't happen. The player tilts, plays worse, and becomes "hardstuck" as you suggest. This is why intensity is important because at large, what causes smurfs to become hardstuck is complacency. Both of your scenarios of alt accounts or hardstuck low elo smurfs presume that the player will approach the games in the same manner as they would on their main. But the knowledge of playing in a lower elo changes your game play. If the system was indeed broken, wouldn't we hear many more stories of pro players becoming hardstuck in high diamond or masters? It just doesn't happen, because at the end of the day, good players will climb. Blaming the system is the easy way out.
your mmr isn't your skill limit. it's your skill average. you're always going to have games where you play better and games where you play worse so the mmr does factor how often your tilt. skill level is the center of distribution not the absolute peak you sometimes play at. it doesn't make sense to expect someone to always play at the best they have ever played at every game. this means sometimes somebody else will play above their skill level in some number of games.
It's wouldn't feel so bad if they were open about it, and the skews were better. I literally played a game about a week ago where my JG nunu was literally a new acct. Iron 1 and the enemy team had a platinum Fiddle/Diana JG/mid respectively. This was a bronze 2 lobby btw.
What I've recently wondered is what if you queued ur main role secondary and secondary role as main. And then you permanently dodged when you got primary? And then you chose mid as primary so that you get secondary role more often. Would you then easily climb way above your actual skill level. Or would it make so little difference that it won't ever be worth it?
I disagree with Curtis that secondary role is a lever that Riot uses. The MMR system is hidden so we have no way of knowing but whenever Riot talks about offsetting role disparity they have only ever used to term "autofill." I believe the opposite of what you are saying is the optimal approach. You should queue primary/secondary as people normally do but if your secondary role is significantly worse just dodge when you get it because there's no offset on the other team.
Not long ago riot mentioned that they actually have started balancing around the fact that secondary isn't the same as primary. They mentioned it in a patch note not too long ago. So they do sometime admit to what they do in matchmaking.@@dojadoug
@@dojadoug You can't disagree when it's a fact that they use it as a lever. They talked about it in a patch note not too long ago. So Riot do talk about the matchmaking once in a while.
@@christis96 I would love to see this patch note because I read everything I can find that Riot puts out. Its very possible I'm forgetting but I can only ever recall seeing the word "autofill."
this game is stupid and people are finally growing up and leaving this stressful, 0 fun, toxic environment for better ones out there. community managers rule the game balancing and too many league influencers have huge influence on these managers decision.
Probably a mental problem. Sure the system this split might be a bit harsher but that difference is never going to be 800 lp. A common trap people fall into is that they believe they are/deserve a certain rank due to previous experience. This often causes people to get into the mindset that “I just have to get in more games”, which in turn means that they don’t take every game as seriously. In the end only you can find the answer to why you have dropped in rank. There can be 1000 different reasons, but the ranked system being bugged definitely isn’t one of them.
Yes, it is not just normal, but expected. This split Riot changed the MMR to Rang distribution so that there are fewer people in the higher ranks. Curtis made a video about it already if you are interested in the details.
I truly believed the game to be kinda fair before the ranked reset this split. Honestly, after this split, it is evident Riot has skewed MMR. Games don't make sense. Bronzies facing gold 4 last split, silvers facing plat players, iron players on silver lobbys, Diamond players in emerald... honestly the game feels like a chore. In addition, the playerbase is getting older and busier and this grinding mentality needs to go, ain't making the game difficult and harder that will bring players satisfaction. New players won't come in to the game due to the difficulty of the game and smurfing and duoing are in all time high. Game feels like is literally against you all the time, it's just exhausting. Getting good at the game is not worth it when you realize all the effort you've put in this game will amount to nothing next split with another reset, another grind, another influx of inters, afkers, duo, smurfs and etc. LP gains is a mess. Should've been a fixed amount of points. You win? 20 LP. you lose? 20 lp. Done. The ones who are good will collect lps and climb and those who are bad will derank. Losing 26 and winning 22 is just stupid. Some games you win 18 others you lose 30. That's so crazy. Game is super unbalanced, adc role is a joke, top lane feels awful to play, assassins are non-existent. But instead of fixing the game and the roster of characters, Riot touches mmr and ranked integrity. It is a shame because League is fun and after Worlds 2024 being such a success, it could bring the game to new heights, but ranked mode is borderline infuriating. It's not surprising people nowadays are slowly moving to PvE games as they tend to be stress-free. I'm still playing league because of my OTP, but climbing through the ranks in this game is not worth your time and effort unless you can make money out of this somehow.
I remember my MMR got so bad to the point where I was gaining 17 LP for wins and losing 36 LP for losses. I was losing MORE THAN DOUBLE than what I gained, it was hell
@@celloj3703yeah because they had rank demotion protection that lasted forever. Now it doesn’t and I’ve seen no one have those gains or losses like that anymore.
@@Thedoctorr5 To be fair - I've made another one that's basically the original, but in reverse. So it's 'Team scores a kill before 2:00.' Died laughing while creating the whole thing. I called it THE IMPOSSIBLE BINGO. It is. It really is impossible.
I do lightly disagree on your take that they cant track who you are going to ban. If you go into your match history in client you can see who was banned. I do not believe that this isnt something that they track on their end.
I love you coach Curtis and yeah, you explained the pattern clearly but you just cant say the system works. How does it work that i have autofilled jungler and in enemy team its smurf in the jungle? None of mine or enemy players were autofilled except my jungler. The system may have pattern that makes sense but its nowhere near working fine.
18:52 so by this logic, wouldn't it be an easy abuse if you duo'd/queue sniped a friend and both choose main roles as secondary to swap in select? Or even picking mid as main and jg as secondary as a jg main
That is not true. Recently worlds bootcamp one of the toplaners had 96% winrate ( 43 wins 3 loses or something ) from D2 to challenger. Funny enought he still lost game against KeshaEUW ap nunu who basically smurfed on him stomping him. The whole 40/40/20 split is not correct. Rather what it is is simply you will stomp games fast or slow untill you reach your rank then you will have 50% winrate , thats the design of the system.
40/40/20 only applies if you are facing evenly skilled opponents. A Worlds level top laners is not facing equally matched players until the top of challenger so it's not indicative of the experience for the average player.
Totally off topic, I know, but maybe someone is in a similar situation 58-62% wr in emerald and im getting +18-19 and lose 21-22, goes anything for this or riot can't do the math? Hard to find motivation to play when im winning more than losing but still getting less and less lp Playing with people around my level, P1-E1 lets say
Hello Curtis, thanks for all your knowledge! Can I ask you a favor? if you have some time, Could you update this video to the "new" map? -> Mid Lane Fundamentals - WAVE MANAGEMENT - Everything On Minion Waves - Episode 3 i'm really stuck on this :/ Brazilian greetings o/ br da aquela curtida pra apoiar :D
I love to 'climb/' improve/ go up in the ladder but this game makes it impossible through soooo many ways. We can't just play the game and slowly climb, nah You wull get demoted 3 times regardless. You need some crazy ass videos like this, truly sad and pointles imo.
I think I’ve commented this recently. But there’s def a noticeable difference in Korea. My plat account got started at silver 4 this season. And like the banners are all silver. But everyone is playing like plat level. And then on my secondary gold account it got started bronze 4. And everyone in bronze is playing like gold level lol. At least for koreas standards of elo. The games are extremely competitive so it’s very fun…but mentally damaging and annoying seeing the bronze/silver borders lol
Curtis didn't talk about it in this video but there was a really hard ranked reset this split. I believe he's talked about it in other videos and in forums but this is the same on other servers as well. Its not uncommon to go down two full tiers (e.g., Diamond->Plat; Emerald->Gold; Plat->Silver).
20:57, yeah this isnt true btw and i can prove it. I have (like many people) multiple accounts. The difference is i play my otp on two accounts in the exact same way in the exact same role, 1 of them is in high diamond/masters, the other one is hard stuck emerald. You can say whatever you want abotu my mental when im playingbut the reality is im playing the exact same way on both accounts, and one is just getting unlucky/lucky. The reality is you can stumble in to huge streaks of loser que/winners que and end up in a rank you don't truly deserve
I strongly disagree that you only get 60 percent effort, there are players who achieve an 80% win rate in Challenger . Also getting a 100% win rate to Diamond is feat many people achieve. just get better. Aim to be so good that no one can stop you.
His point isn't that you can only get 60% win rate, he's saying that only 60% of the outcome is directly tied to matchmaking. If you're flexible with champs/roles, you can turn around a bad game that an OTP that was banned might not be able to.
Point is that this "game" is an esport. And most of the time your "teammates" are npc's who first time a champion and wait to get carried. Sometimes a teammate also plays to win and the game becomes playable.
It doesn't directly know "this player is a kat otp", it's just an emergent result of how it works. If the kat otp has their champ banned, it means they will play on a lower level than usual, effectively meaning the MMR of that player doesn't matter because that MMR was reached with kat. It's absolutely feasible that a master kat otp plays only a diamond level Zed, for example. The system doesn't track that, but it will put you into the MMR that you reached with 98% kat games obviously, and that can change the odds of the game.
@@Gidon147 yeah BUT the MMR SYSTEM doesnt care about that. It doesnt know your only chanpion is katarina all it knows is you won X times, thus for the MMR SYSTEM, it still considers you that elo. Doesnt matter, and thats why in the long term otps need to have more champions and cheese strategies to climb only get you so far. And no dodging because your otp got banned or picked is not valid. Back in the day people had to know a wide variety of champions and there is so many in the game there is no excuse for being that "high elo" but so lacking in general skills you cant play decently with other champs
This guy is making me laugh. Can’t stop laughing. He is saying that 1 v9 games I play are winnable with all lanes feeding except me. I wanted to swear few appropriate words for him but I choose not to. Absolutely rubbish.
OHHHH! So my botlane dying 2 v 2 in first 3 mins of the game every 3rd game with me pathing towards botlane IS SOCIOLOGICAL DIFFERENCE! RIGHT! Give me a break. And it's not criticism towards split 3 exclusively. Entire season is dogshit. Elo inflation, putting 1 team in advantage due to the number of autofilled players, literally swapping people around role-wise (top main in the jungle, jungle main top etc) which was later confirmed by Riot because they said they fixed it, cencoring chat in game resulting in people literally refusing to communicate with each other which make previous point even more unbearable. As much as some of your points are eye opening for many, as a whole it just looks like you try to defend Riot and their matchmaking system "because it's not that bad". But hey, I'm just emerald lvl player, what can I know right? I'm just a low elo in eyes of such a esteemed Challenger player, a Bronze with different coloure. Please tell me about playing single player game in team play based game and how other players don't matter as long as I'm doing better job. Sorry but this thing is so delusional, it's crazy.
i dont agree with this, because i think there are other things in the matchmaking algorithm that youre not taking into account. for example, it think the algorithm can see if your the type of person that is likely to play more if you win or lose. So when youre like me and youre more likely to queue up again after a loss, or especially after a loss streak, and stop after a win, the algorithm know it and sets you up to lose more so you play the game more. Conversely, i think the algorithm know if youre the kind of person to stop playing after a loss or keep playing after a win, and it will set you up to win more, so you play more. This is how they use psychology to get you more addicted. naive if you think otherwise.
You’re doing too much, it’s all about statistics and the competition. Statistically the lower ranks will have a lot more variables because these ranks are people who may or may not show dedication to learning the game. It’s honestly not hard to just view lower rank games and see game to game how different each one plays. You can coach your students and see they are dedicated to learning and then see others in the same rank and be like “wtf are they doing”. It’s because in lower ranks the disparity between someone just playing to play and someone wanting to learn and be better off fundamentals is huge. I have friends in P4 who don’t even know wave management or supports E4 who don’t even roam. THAT right there should tell you everything you need to know about the matchmaking not being able to pinpoint even matchmaking ESPECIALLY when we have a new distribution that was created to make people feel like they are getting better. Now the system all confused in matching players.
Holy shit fix your handwriting Curtis, nearly everything you wrote in the first 4 minutes is unreadable. You would genuinely be better off just using words, and gesturing with your hands.
coach curtis w the most mindnumbing L takes ive seen from a league "professional" all this mental masturbation crafting imaginary situations based off imaginary data this boi is just a plug for Riot to cue soundbytes
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personally i feel like knowing and understanding this actually HELPS with the learning side of my games. so many games feel helpless, other games feel like i could’ve afked and won. now i understand exactly why.
understanding all this helps compartmentalise the hell that is soloQ so i’m less confused when it’s a mess, and just focus on myself anyway.
if it’s a loss it’s a loss, win it’s a win but what could i have done different?
of course this ‘should’ be a given, but again just understanding that all these factors actually do exist, for me personally reduces the frustration because i actually get it now.
take the L when the system fucks you and keep the improve mental only going
cheers beast
I appreciate you making this video actually. It's refreshing to visit how many factors are at play in a ranked game. Certainly not as simple as it feels sometimes.
NA GM mid here who hit chall for the first time this split. My alt is now my main which is just kinda crazy to think that after putting in thousands of games learning and improving your best bet is to make a new smurf with “fresh” mmr and it will make climbing exponentially easier. Thats a problem. I just wish each split reset everyones MMR harder. Played DotA 2 and HoN at a high level and it was impossible to “mess up” your mmr like you can in league and it was easy to tell this due to visible mmr number on profile as well as visible mmr gains/losses. Just food for thought nice vid curtis ❤
Would be kind of nice if we could see our MMR.
@@TheNekofanatic just compare lp losses to lp gains. if it's equal you don't really have to worry about anything
I've been hardstuck in gold 4 and high silver since I started playing, (2013, I play on and off since then). I never played more games because the amount of games needed to climb was just INSANE. Well, I started a fresh account and I got gold 3 in 10 games. I just straight wasted thousands of games (?)
@AbrainboomO so you ended up at the same elo what's the problem, you just didn't improve past being a gold player after thousands of games no problem with that
@@elvis4868 Just wrong though. My alt is diamond 2 71% wr while my main is 78% wr emerald 1 with double the amount of games. If that doesn't tell you something.... Prior performance wether it be due to not trying hard enough or lack of games in previous splits is literally making it harder to climb.
The biggest problem is that people have 0 understanding of what team compositions work and what dont. Most people are picking to win lane not to win the game. Classic example is Teemo top, which yeah in right hands wins many lanes, but most of the time ruins the team composition by having no frontline and CC whatsoever.
u can have frontline and cc in jungler and/or supp. am not teemo player. people just queue up ranked with a champ in mind and they dont care about team compositions, or what enemy team is picking.
i think player just dont care about ranked or climbing. they lost they lost, now riot is to blame because for low win rates accs they actually lose same lp that they gain on wins, this is bad.
@wolvewick4414 that is ONLY supposing if jungle and support have picked before the teemo top pick AND if they have actually picked a front line tank or CC champ. The problem with the Teemo pick is that even if your team has the front line and cc and your top locks in teemo, quite literally the enemy top can go a rudimentary top lane choice and beyond the laning phase the game is lost because anyone below gold really doesn't understand macro and how to push properly or manage waves. The Teemo top pick is a classical low ego, high ego, low iq pick that destroys games. It's almost never a good pick unless your understanding of macro is much higher in which case your not in the lower elos and you already understand this point and likely aren't picking Teemo Top.
This just adds variance, you win as many games due to poor enemy comp as you lose to your poor team comp it doesn't matter in the context of a climb
@@elvis4868 True, but it is so infuriating :O
However, I do think that because of this, in general it is easier to have a higher winrate if you play frontliner top/jungle/support yourself because then the variance lands on your favor more often. Most of the games I lose is because enemy team had a frontline and we didnt. Easiest to climb with a bruiser because then your team always has some form of a frontline AND you can still carry games by killing people yourself.
Climbing with OTP Teemo top is way harder because Teemo top ruins most team comps so you are ruining the variance for yourself statistically speaking vs picking a champ that benefits most team comps.
@tikari3987 yeah pretty much, you have to be better than your opponents to play ranged toplaners, I've seen drututt play shit like aphelios top and carry but he's just too good at the game so it doesn't matter, I think tho if someone has a 50% winrate on teemo top that prolly means if they played like garen instead they would be one rank higher, it's like me playing zed, if I just played malzahar I would be one rank higher but I enjoy zed so idc
My biggest issue right now is the fill system. I understand they're looking into making it better for 2025, but it doesn't fix the problem. The obvious reason this is a problem is because imagine 1 player get's filled jungle but doesn't know how to play it but the other teams jungle gets filled and knows how to. This should never ever happen and I'd rather wait 10% on average for a que than anyone forced into roles.
I feel like every time I get auto filled to jungle I get a lot of kills because I can understand wave management/match ups etc, but I’m so unfamiliar with the mini game that is jungle, that I have a hard time not falling off.
I believe this is the one role that shouldn’t be autofilled. It should only go to people who first or second pick it bc the important of having a competent jungler can’t be stressed enough.
Honestly? Best solution is to refuse to have fills until higher up on the ladder. What I mean is bronze and silvers shouldn’t be getting filled when they barely understand 1/5th of their OWN role much less others. At a certain point the higher you go the more you should be able to handle but also the rarer games are, so it’s a good idea to have fill.
@@shibaraccoon8740 It's actually other way around. You may think a higher elo player who auto-filled will do just fine because the higher your mmr the better you know about the game and each role but actually he will be hard punished because in lower elos, your mistakes will go unpunished while in higher elos, every single mistake counts. I play mid primary, sup secondary in master elo and I will dodge every single game I auto-filled because the worst jungle in my elo literally outclasses me in every single aspect of that role.
@@vert1 jungle and support are the lowest picked roles, so they have to get autofilled the most. people don't like supp bc adcs treat them badly, and people don't like jgl because laners spam ping you every time they die and say nasty things. the only exception is in jgl if you OVERGANK (which usually loses the game in the long run) they wont constantly harass you. I agree though, enemy jgl is autofill is usually a free win for me since they never full clear and then gank, they always ruin their econ in the long run you can beat them just by full clearing and ganking like a silver. autofill jglers are the worst
there are EASY junglers though like karthus or diana, who usually just want to full clear asap and then do things on down time. but most people pick the hard junglers like VI to autofill and play on but on a champ like vi your macro has to be PERFECT or you lose sometimes to just 1 good lulu and a lack of econ. its hard for laners to even gauge how hard the jungle is to play without a lot of matchup experience
I've noticed this for years now, I play support and when I stomp bot lane, and it is clear the enemy support is really awful at the game, my top lane ends up feeding 9/10 times.
SpearShot even memes about it, when he loses lane he says 'its fine bot lane will get kills and carry, it happens every time I die'
My experience is top or mid or jgl get diffed hard and now they're invading and stomping my lane and now I gotta play catch up while my team feeds more lol. At this point queueing for a match is a coinflip rather then actually using skill
That's natural gameplay. Having one losing side of the map means needing to focus on the other side, basically they need to avoid the lane that's snowballed into oblivion at all costs and create the same snowball effect crossmap for their team if they want a chance at winning the game. The second your bot lane goes 5/0, your Top now has a huge target on its back because it's now automatically the enemy's safest play to invest in.
From Spearshot's perspective, imagine he's fed a snowbally champion like Darius, Riven, Illaoi; you're forced to play elsewhere and leave them alone because they can easily 1v2 you, so naturally you make plays bot lane as the Jungler or Mid.
Since you play Support you can actually impact the game heavily with this knowledge by being inside the head of the enemy Jungler since you know he wants to avoid bot after you stomp it, and roaming at good times to prevent his reactionary crossmap plays, especially if you're setting wave states where your ADC can comfortably 1v2, it's all very champion dependent though.
@@Rayonnant_style I guess yes, I will start doing the cross map thing in my games and see if it works.
But Spearshot and myself, when I say we win lane I mean we get no jgl help its 1v1 kills or 2v2 kills bot lane, and after that it is true in my games the jenemy gl comes to gank and we can usually 2v3 or at least oneshot the jgl and make it a even 2v2
I played a lot of rank in season 8 and I do remember having a lot of games where every lane was won and even the jungler was fed and we would stomp the enemy very fast. The rare times I get 3 winning lanes now the jgler is feeding and useless and always solo loses the game, I have no idea how that is possible but it happens. I just rarely see those complete stomps I used to see years ago, but also I play less summoners rift than before so might be a sample size issue.
i play jgl. dude if i get a good supp its game over i literally get lvl 4 and then hold their hand. if they dont go UP to mid/top i fullclear gank bot again. if they DO, i literally gank > shop > gank, and then still gank bot after i farm some camps. if enemy jungler starts bot to top clear it is SO easy to force a VERTICAL/free dive situation where he has to gank top and i have to gank bot. literal freelo
edit: this doesnt start happening til around plat, but if it doesn't, you can call for assistance! most supports/junglers LOVE to gank and fight
Not gonna lie, the current state of ranked feel like the worst thing I experienced ever since I started playing it. I took a little break and started the split 1 month after the reset, now I am screwed, playing in lobbys with mentaly broken ex emerald and gold hardstuck and it turns me into just another mentaly broken ex emerald player cause the level of play is just so much worse than what I had before the reset and It just feels god awful to play and watch. I am an Emerald player as described in your podcast. I know what is good, I know what is bad. I hit top 10th percentile of player base and I consider myself shit anyway cause I know how much I do wrong. My biggest problem not getting further in Emerald was mental. So I took a break, now I am back, having to play gold elo games and it broke me in record time. I am probably one of the highest mmr players in those games, and I can't perform because I mentaly break cause I can't cope with the quality I am experiencing. I only played rank to stay fit and improve for amateur competitive scene. I wanted to get a decent rank to find a decent team, but with the current affair of things I just can't even get myself to press play cause it just feels so aweful being stuck in games that are below your level of play. I make like +34 -16. I should get out of there at least partly in no time at all, but it just hurts to much to play.
I'm in Emerald playing with broken ex Diamonds and Masters who are now stuck here like me. The difference is that I was Emerald before, then improved so I'm Emerald again after the changes. They were "high elo" last split and now "pisslow" because that's how the system works now. I can only imagine how ruined their mentals are.
All I can say is to just stop letting your ego get in your way and just enjoy smurfing in gold until you climb back up. Yeah, your team will be bad, but opponents are also bad. You won't win every game for free but you should be easily gapping the hard stuck golds making games very winnable for yourself.
Awesome vid Curtis! Also really been enjoying the answers to skool questions in your shorts, and the skool community as a whole!!
Funny to me, as a data analyst, it actually wouldn't be that hard for Riot to account for OTP or counterpick stuff in determining MMR/LP gain/loss for a gain. They have enough data available to them to include that information in the calculations.
Maybe they do and that's why LP gains and losses sometimes seem inconsistent. Doesn't detract from the difficulty of these games or them happening though.
@Zevrael definitely not, and wasn't trying to imply that. But you can tell their algorithm doesn't even take into account time on a champ when you see pairings with massively different champ Mastery levels. Even in lower ELO games, someone with a higher Mastery is going to be better in general.
@@TheNekofanatic The matchmaking algorithm can't just assume you are going to pick your best champions or that they won't be banned.
But that's my point, it *can* take that into account, it would just have to be programmed in a way to do so. That's why I made the point of saying I am a data analyst. I know it can be done, I can think up half the code in my head right now. Can't really do much more without access to their system though, so not like I can volunteer to do it for them. 😆
@@TheNekofanatic At the time of making the match, you don't know which champions are going to be picked and banned. The only thing you can do is estimate some percentage for how often a player gets his champion and adjust accordingly. But that makes each individual game more unbalanced in favor of long term statistics, because the player is going to be significantly stronger than assumed when he gets his champion and significantly weaker when he doesn't. If you don't adjust, his performance will match the skill level of the game in a larger share of his matches, leading to a better experience most of the time for everyone.
Huge video, I'm going to be sharing this. Well made
But… why doesn’t the ranked system just let people play to rise and fall as they may? Matchmaking based on MMR is fine but the system trying to put people where it “thinks they belong” is stupid
It's not if you think about it. If the system tries you out and realizes you perform they can get you to the rank you belong faster, which means you ruin less games in the process.
@ That’s the thing. “The rank you belong.” Why even have this ranked system? Just list everyone by their MMR and be done with it if that’s how you all view ladders. Let people rise and fall as they may. All of this stuff tweaking LP and rigging matchups to favor one side over another, it’s all bullshit
That would make smurfing a huge problem
@@juhaojanpaa Smurfing is a huge problem right NOW. That is a separate issue which Riot could fix but chooses not to
@@erynpimentel915 I mean sure, but it would be an EVEN BIGGER problem then. Nothing would stop you from making new account and climbing all the way from low elo to your peak slowly ruining dozens/hundreds games because you don't get more LP than others. Every elo would be filled with smurfs and all game would be coin flip of who has more smurfs. Similar to how it is now I guess, but worse
I might add that every player will have many factors like tiredness, tilt from other games, family stuff, maybie conxentration, different goals and views about the game. This just shows how hard it is to balance teams for the system, as just a few random factors (esp in high elo, way higher than i will ever reach :D) can turn the tide of the game, multiple times even.
For example, just yesterday i had a game where we were 11/28 at 15 minutes, but keeping calm, farming, giving drakes and playing around my team wincon, saying no to our inting supp (1/14) calls made us last 30 minutes and start sweeping their team every time some enemy tried to split, resulting in desynchronised enemy death timers (aka theres's always someone dead) took us the win, nearly 40 min in, even with nexus towers open, my jg opponent with 2M points on shyv, enemies higher by few ranks on avg (diamond, plats and bronze vs full silvers). I think concentrating on doing your job in the team, playing around resources and not fearing enemy skill/rank or champ "counters", having clear goals really helps :)
You're so good at explaining concepts and ideas. Great job on the video.
the biggest issue with matchmaking is that they match lobbies via avg mmr not position to position mmr
that results with for eg gap on less important role in favor of one team but also gap on more important role in favor for other team on other role
I mean worse support won't be as crucial as gapped jungler
if it would be matched role to role it wouldn't even be a problem to have like high plats and low diamonds within one lobby
maybe gapped support matters more it depends on the mmr I think. Also team comp. The other day we were massively support diffed but they had a full ad teamcomp, 3 assassins, and the supp was pyke. THey lost. But the supp diff was huge.
Engagement optimized matchmaking. That's it. Riot makes the matchmaking to make you play and grind as much as possible, not to make it fair for you.
This is also explained purely by RNG and the fact that Riot makes games before champ select and not after. A lot of players have their MMR based on their 75% of games with their good champs but then 25% of their games they'll pick one of their bad champs for whatever reason. Riot doesn't need to do anything intentionally and this will occur.
yh I feel like this is very true too. I play a lot of ARAMs and a few years ago I'd play at night with a friend, and we had this motto 'we can't end on a lose' and we played every night and after midnight we would lose the vast majority of games, a lot of times I stayed up all night just trying to get a win, other times I'd hop on my smurf and then get teammates that carry you and you stomp the enemy, probably because their matchmaking knew this account doesnt play much and isn't gonna play for 3 hours chasing a win
There's no proof Riot uses EOMM.
@@bennyharvey8436 they do, they have 3 patents on EOMM, and you can find them online. The first one if i remember is from 2015. Just tell me why wouldn't they use it? They are a multibilionaire company and their game is free to play ( so the players are the product) it would only make sense that they would find a way to make the players play as much as possible. If they let you reach your true rank fast you might stop playing.
@@bennyharvey8436 This very system is just that. You are thrown around on the easy/hard scale every game. It's obviously not as bad as some people say but getting win/lose streaks solely based on teams you get is happening across all ranks.
It is nice to know that higher elos suffer from the same matchmaking as what I deal with in iron. However, I do think there is a difference. In gold or diamond or whatever you can reasonably expect both champs in a lane to know how to play. You can also reasonably expect that they aren't first timing a champ in ranked. In iron you can't expect that, so when you get a skill disparity in a lane, they don't even have the knowledge or sense enough to try to just maintain.
I liked the explanation. I actually kind of wish the system wouldn't try so hard to balance across game in iron and maybe bronze. If I am the high MMR support, and they have the high MMR top, I can't not influence the game nearly as effectively as they can. This goes double if you pick a support like leo that is all about support and cant really operate on her own.
I agree the matchmaking rabbit hole is deep, specially if you start considering match histories of your teammates. For me, that's why I let the AI do that for me just to avoid having to think about it
It's like you were making videos dedicated solely to my ranked journey haha, thanks :)
60% wr for 100% effort doesnt pay out, very "nice" ranking system. Even though it's also true I just OTP Ahri and that might be why I lose more than if I played with more champions and roles.
i noticed on my main, (context: I made the account 5 years ago, played until level 30, but didnt really learn it properly, was just there for the vibes with friends, quit due to uni, that's pretty much it). In 2022 i decided to try ranked out of nowhere (i had still little mechanics and game knowledge). I got placed in bronze II and stayed there but only did like 20 games of ranked. I decided to play again 4 weeks ago, but this time I decided to learn the fundamentals and try to master a champ to some extent. I got placed in iron IV and keep getting +25 LP for a win and -25 for a loss, with my below 50% winrate i pretty much stay on 0 LP.
Now I made an alt because at the time I didn't think I deserve this. Since many players there are mechanically good but their macro sucks. On this alt, I keep getting matched up with and against low to high bronze, and sometimes even silver players. Overall i'd say I don't do that bad in those matches, i try to apply the stuff that I learned from youtube and get my 6-7.5 cs/min. I'm not level 30 yet so I can't say that I'm bronze yet, but if I compare this to normal draft games on my main: i get matched up with and against the bottom of the barrell, new players, or straight up inters and i got 75% win rate in normal draft over 100 games on Orianna.
What I don't understand is that I play the same champ on both accounts (Orianna), apply the same principles yet it's so different on the two accounts. I don't really care about my rank that much, it's just that I feel like I'm learning waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more on the alt compared to the main account.
note/edit: I consistently get matched up with bronze players now (mostly B3-B1)
Thanks for the video, you're always the voice of reason I come back to when it comes to League. Keep doing what you're doing.
Thanks Coach Curtis, you and Nathan Mot have helped me in my League Journey and in the day to day. # Monk Mental
This was a good listen. As a very casual player it’s still really interesting to get some hard earned insight into Riot’s match making system for what on-paper is an attempt at a fair match. The human condition will always add a level of chaos that would make match making take an unbearably long time for most normies. 👍🎮
this is all correct, getting counterpicked, having your champion banned, having people swap pick order all can change the outcome of a game significantly, because the matchmaking cant account for that, it doesnt matter if your team has the worse players winrate wise, matchmaking already accounted for that. honestly this is one of the best videos hes ever done, much better than bbc videos. when we still could check our teams in champ select it didnt actually do much, if you check your team, they will always have low winrates and if they have high winrates the enemy team will likely have a smurf or also high winrates, it did nothing even back then. what happens during champ select has a bigger impact on the outcome of the game than the winrates of teammates, because those are accounted in the matchmaking, the champions being played is not, unless there are otps.
They have the data on the champs you usually ban and the champs and comps you win with and lose with. They assess that for everyone and matchmake in a way that will either fk you over or fk over the enemy.
They also know who's likely to tilt and become ineffective. All of these things are used by riot to predict/control the games
If you are good in two rolls you can queue for them in blocks,always getting the off roll perks.
i wonder if their changes to champ select (picking a role) cursed the game. matchmaking felt better back in the day when pick order was based on player mmr and you were expected to play most roles to a degree.
yeah and sometimes i swap my mid to give him coutner pick then he first times a champ and also manages to counter pick himself
There is 100% something wrong with the ranked system but i dont know what it is. My main was master its now emerald 1 i did mess around a little start of season but still games were players from similar ranks but just unplayable. I made a smurf im 31-12 in diamond 2-3 games so im now higher than my main and games feel easier I think people were inflated and we got deflated but i think all the bought accounts and boosted people also were in that so that low/mid/high emerald is disgusting and same for plat. My last 2 games vs d1 top laners were 5/1/8 and 9/2/4 the games becoming easier to me again i think the system is actually just corrupt.
i think the matchmaking is all about winstreaks, if you play on your main, you will likely not get an easy winstreak, since if you were smurfing you would not be at that rank anymore at the end of the season, if you create a new account its easier to build up a winstreak which will lead to easier games. you dont just get more lp for good mmr, you straight up get easier games as well, that is how the matchmaking works and has worked for ages, its all about making people create as many accounts as possible, to make people buy exp boosts and skins, it all makes sense.
Amazing, Coach!
I've definitely experienced the weird matchmaking thing you're talking about on smurf accounts. I also had some games vs diamond players when my account I was hand leveling was around level 20
This is largely explained because throughout almost all of League's history your ranked MMR was completely separate from your normal MMR. So you could have a diamond player who barely has any normal summoner's rift games played (when they leveled the account perhaps they only played ARAM or bot games or perhaps were actually a new player and haven't played since they got good). Then they randomly play a normal game to practice something and are much better than everyone else. Riot has recently said they are going to start tying ranked MMR to normal MMR to prevent these situations.
At what point does solo queue become more about which team got the “better” mismatch in players? Like, if I get the “better” support and the enemy team gets the “better” jungler, is it fair that I (the top laner) just lose because their mismatch was in a more impactful role? As much as I would love to turbogap my laner and carry every game, I simply cannot do it 100% of the time, especially if my enemy is as good or better than me.
I feel like very little of this applies to anything below D2, ESPECIALLY the scenarios you listed while talking about the different levers and pick order/CP potential. There are very few players below D2 that even think about either of these two things, and the lower you get, the worse it becomes. Hell, even in mid-plat (mid-range, MAYBE the lowest of the high-range MMR) games, I have seen people *literally* picking champions they have NEVER played before.
As an adc, mid-range MMR is possibly the worst place to be. Lower MMR is easy enough to carry through without any real effort or even team coordination. Higher MMR your teammates perform better overall, allowing you to coast into 3 items more often/easily, and from there you can start to carry. In the mid-range MMRs, players aren't good enough to know what to do at almost any point in the game, but also have the arrogance in that they're above the low MMR range, so they start to think they know everything and can do no wrong, when really they don't. That makes it harder for you, as an adc, to climb because they will not listen to pings, they will go for what I call "hero plays" oftentimes that end in them just inting the game away since a single death late game is sometimes just gg, or whatever else. They don't understand that the later the game goes, the more important it becomes to not die and to keep your adc alive/safe.
I played jungle and support to Masters a couple seasons in a row. Wanted to learn adcs and get there with adc as well, and it was a NIGHTMARE going through high Gold through low Diamond. I was effectively autopiloting/coasting through those ranks as jungle and support... and I'd like to think that I'm not just a trash tier adc with bad mechanics or decision making, since I did end up making it to Masters and I am top 100 NA on Caitlyn, Vayne, and Kaisa.
ALSO, I can personally attest to the randomness being a very real consideration. I work rotating shiftwork, so I play at all times of day, depending on where I'm at on my work rotation. I have noticed that games after roughly 1am until about 7 or 8am for my time zone are SIGNIFICANTLY worse quality than games at say 2pm until about 8pm. I would assume that is because players are queueing up while either drinking or already being drunk. That's the only real conclusion I could come up with. But my win percentage in the games at night was *literally* 15% less than my win percentage during my daytime games. That was crazy to me.
I would JUST LOVE if you can see who is autofilled, offrole, etc. Without using Porofesor 😅. BUT not after the match Starts, i want all that on the champ select screen and also the enemy team
got a friend who recently started playing ranked. he's play 20 games. not a lot, not a few. he was talking to me about how he's got a 20% winrate. i decided to look at his games after he sent me a screenshot where his team only had players with below 30% winrates and the enemy team had 50-60+% winrates. i look at his previous games and the players and deduced he had TWO games with ONE PLAYER in each that had an above 50% winrate where as the enemy team had 14 games with people consistently above 50% winrates, with 2 games eking out 70-80% winrates. some people enjoy jumping to "you are the only consistent in the game" but it's kinda hard to use that when statistically he's been absolutely dealt a bad hand 16 out of 20 games. i have *never* seen this before and it made me laugh.
This is how it works. If you want to test this out, just have an account where you play one Ranked game per day at roughly the same time of day. Play more casually, don't go crazy try-hard mode. After one month you will realize that all your wins cluster together, and so will your losses. For one week or so you will win 70-80%. The following week you will barely win. And the cycle will repeat infinitely.
I know because I have several accounts and have tried this out.
If you play perfect every game, you have around 60% chance to win and climb. That means you have to give 100% of yourself and only recieve 60% of your effort. To me it's not worth it. You face dynamic trolling in league be from derankers, be from people that are soft inting, or just straight up facing boosters and dumbing down your lp. It's not a fair game and if you flame the guy that int you recieve the punishment. I much rather play a casino game, you have a higher chance to win there.
Okay, but then why are there people with 80-90% win ratios when they take over low mmr accounts? Why are there people at the top of the ladder with 70% with ratios?
There's definitely ways to influence most games to be wins, its just the average player will never be that skilled.
I suppose if you have a friend that gives 100% of himself, that increases your odds of winning.
If you played perfect every game, you would win 100% of the games you play.
@@alexrosario423 Well yes there are people with 80-90% win ratios on fresh acc's, because their main is high elo, like Challenger and they play a couple of games and have high rating on the new acc's. Most people however don't have that much time to give in the name of climbing the ladder. Especially at low elo if you don't snowball early there is very high chance that you lose the game. Why do I have to play like Diana mid and hunt for kills when I want to be Yuumi or Soraka? This game has over 160 champs and it's pretty unbalanced. You can climb elo with one champ then they nerf it and you have to learn another. I'll give you an example with chess - it's very simple game there are no champs but there are pawns, there is structure, there is opening, and yes there is endgame. Playing league is like rolling dice every time you click that play button. It's ultimately flawed.
that's if you only care about winning, I care about playing well, If I play well and I still lose it doesn't matter, I wpgg the enemy and I feel good about myself
the match making is actually more chaotic than that. Imagine a room made of 200 students of biology. Even tho they're almost the "same" level of studying. The best student outperform really hard the lowest one. Now imagine there is 200 players in your elo. And in it, there is like 40jgler main (20% of the players (this sounds already crazy). now imagine that most jgler are pretty bad, like on 200 there ranked between 140-180. But some of them, the top 5 players of the 200 are jgler. And the matchmaking take 1 of the "low average jgler" for team A and the "top of the rank" for the team B. But wait, actually the low average jgler just disconnect of team A so the riot bot take another player autofilled. But wait the autofilled jgler of Team A take the main champ of the carry good jgler of the team B. But wait the jgler of Team A forgot to take smite because he's not main jgl. but wait Team A comp' is way better than the ennemy one. But wait Team B midlaner low rank is actually a smurfer and start to 1v9 the game. But he got a message. His girlfriend had an accident. He goes afk. But wait, the ADC of Team A that is playing good can't be pilled anymore because the supp has lag. Team B Adc start carrying but his wireless mouse died. Actually mid and jgler of team A are both good player but one want to play conservative and the other dont so the alchemy is bad and they lose. This is all what can happens. If there is "1/10" chance something goes wrong it's ok. Imagine there is "1/10" chance, a player got lag. This is not a lot. But if there is 10 players, the odds gets higher and higher. if you have a dice with 1/10 chance of getting 10. It's not a lot, but if you keep throwing the dice again and again, and again. Then eventually you might reach it.
If league was 5v5 where player had all the same roles. They could swap really easily. But they all have a particuliar, role and a particuliar champ there familiar with, and it can get banned or picked by the ennemy. And imagine, there is 200 players (closest to your rank). Maybe the most average are not connected at the moment and only the more extrem (higher, and lower than you) are connected. Riot can't make you wait 5, 10, 20 mins before a lacking average jgler in your team start to connect. So they take autofill, etc, etc. if there is lets say 50 jglers that are close to your rank. And your team need one. Some might be disconnected, some might have lags, or suddenly disconnected, some might be drunk, some might be tilt by previous game, some might be main banned or picked by the ennemy, some might be afk because of emergency for the most climatic moment of the game, some might just have bad alchemy with your own gameplay, or composition. Each time you're assuming something can go wrong, you roll the dice once more.
The MMS will place win streakers against players good at counter picks that easily shutdown what you play.
This game is designed to be toxic.
Until they implement a sophisticated system for analysing your individual performance relative to your lane opponent, the game will continue to feel unrewarding for the majority of players. Currently, you can outperform your opponent in every single objective metric, but the only thing that the system cares about is which nexus exploded. They already have a system in Valorant where your individual performance can mitigate your LP losses. They need to bring it over to League so that this community can get back to enjoying the game.
I was wondering if they take into consideration lose streaks.
Somebody that lost consistently 4 games in a row must be tilted/boosted/playing while tired or anything like that so he is a big negative factor to his team.
It's not just a "lower mmr", probably it's also a game ruiner and the system, I suppose, takes that into consideration.
champions. everyone are mostly picking whatever they want. if people were dedicated to climb we would get picks like in the esports 90% of the time since everything you need to win is to win a teamfight
Extremely useful, thanks
The problem is Riot allowing people to get to X rank without understanding the game holistically , just by spamming a single pick/role. IMO best thing that could ever happen to the game is hard reset of ladder + no more role queue. With that you get to actually measure a player's skill at THE GAME, not at how well they can abuse onetricking, say, yone to master. We all know this is never happening, but i'm a firm believer it would improve game quality A LOT in the long run.
This would also help a lot with champ pool and champion understanding, just feels like playing with role queue creates HUGE biases that are hard to account for when the system is creating the lobbies. My 2 cents.
ALSO, why don't we have voice chat? legit question here, I feel riot has been pushing for team oriented play for a LONG while now, but still refuses to enable proper comunication....
Does this affect the non-ranked games as well? I've been running into a lot of games where I am trying to learn a new champion and the entire team will have double or higher the champion mastery level as anyone on my team.
Saying they can’t predict things like how comps get picked I fully disagree. It’s 100% within their behavior to build a team in matchmaking toward certain directions ie….multiple split push champ mains on one team of….multiple high skill difficulty champs on another. In my smurfing I can say with good confidence that champ difficulty on said team is the single greatest factor in determining the win% of that team.
Little bro you contradict yourself so hard. Your smurfing is proof that "champ difficulty ... is the single greatest factor in determining the win". Riot has no idea what champion is going to be picked / banned / traded on either side. You really think that Riot should stack 10 players with a bias to not only a role, but champion, play style, and team comp? What happens when you want to learn a new champion? What are you even on about?
Autofill is killing the game.. lvl 11 gwen vs lvl 7 camile 😂 riot matchmaking
Autofill should be eliminated, is not healthy for the game imo
They should add Champion Ranks or atleast Role Ranks. That way you can play other roles without feeling shit about being too bad on that role due to your accounts rank like it is now.
They tried that. Everyone hated it so they took it away.
40% are up to you, 30% always win, 30% always lose
that is the conclusion that was in an old video he made in the past, the one that he DOESN't want people to oversimplify into.
The reason why he put that huge disclaimer on the beginning of the video
no xd, its 20%, 40% and 40% thats why ppl are around 40-60 winrate
The 40-30-30 comes from viewing the game as 5 independent lane matchups, each lane either wins or loses, and you win if your team has 3 or more winning lanes.
Maths: Each of your teammates have 2 outcomes, win or lose against their counterpart. There are 2^4 = 16 possibilities for how your teammates win or lose and in 6 of those possibilities there are 2 teammate wins and 2 teammate losses. These 2-2 games are where you become the deciding factor. Thus, you are the deciding factor in 6/16 = 37.5% of your games.
Of course this is an oversimplification of the game and doesn't include two players in bot lane, how some lanes will snowball harder than others, and how jungle affects other lanes.
As for the 40 to 60% winrate comment, anybody who is consistently losing their lane would have a 30% winrate based on the math above but losing so many games would eventually put you at a rank where you are even with your opponent, unless you fall all the way to iron 4. Smurfs can get over 70% winrates because they are so much better than their opponents that even if the enemy has two winning lanes, the lower mmr players won't have as much of a lead nor the skill to snowball that lead compared to the smurf.
There are so many ways to fix the match making gaps.
They just need to implement them.
There is a basic concert that can solve this and they don't implement it.
Solo queue is not a team game. No one plays really as team. In higher elo they just try to struggle more with the team. MMR should be based on personal player ranks. You already have the mechanism. Just implement it.
If player is not related to the level of the rank. He will get low grades and reduce MMR.
If bronze player plays silver game. And score S+ he is probably not a bronze player.
how would queueing as autofill affect the system, i wonder.
15:18 like bruh this whole list just makes you realize every game is random lmao!
what if i queue as autofill? do the games become easier?
I was wondering the same thing. If someone is reasonably competent at all roles, would it be better to pick autofill instead of specific roles?
No, you will still get many auto-win games, followed by a bunch of auto-lose games.
curtis said "dog sht" haha WHAT HAPPENED
Coach Curtis on the 3nd stage of grief: Bargaining. He's beginning to realize the game is rigged and looser queue exists. I could elaborate on what it's purpose is (trash feeders having 50% winrate because they bought a skin, they gotta have fun too) but why would I.
He is missing a few scenarios that have been common place in my games for many, many years: You just came back to the game and LoL has no MMR decay in normals so you can't practice without being stomped or jumping straight into ranked while super rusty, your teammates are high and/or drunk, you are high and/or drunk lol (been sober 17 months now), and many other external things that make the game much harder.
The best way to climb is to learn the conceptual ideas people put on TH-cam for free and try to fight your ego. If you don't feel entitled, you will climb. It sounds counterintuitive, but think about how well you do something when people are watching. Pressure affects performance tremendously. You are the one who actually creates that pressure. If you have 15,000 fans watching you and wanting you to win, but you DGAF while in your game, you will play better than when you are alone believing the world, Riot, and your jungler hate you.
Obviously being impaired is in your control, but when you have 4 teammates, and 5 enemies, there is a whole host of things going on that is beyond what Riot can account for.
If you believe you are stuck in any situation in your life, then you are. "You can't win if your white flag's out when the war begins." - Einstein
I come back to the game all the time and it takes like 2 Arams for me to get back into it , this game doesn't even change.
It's only issue for OTPs who suck at the game playing anything else while in specific patch their OTP is weak.
4:43 I hate those clear leavers... If you are going to afk just dont queue. Or if you are playing in a mcdonalds parking lot.
Don't worry about harming the community. You've curated a specific kind of viewer who will 9/10 agree with you with 0 objections. Anyone who would potentially be harmed by this video is not watching it.
It’s really interesting how content creators tout that leagues system works as intended, but there’s hundreds of cases of players making alt accounts and getting 5-10x their main accounts rank, or instances where a good player smurfs but gets hardstuck low elo and goes next account.
Idk for a system that works as intended and finds your skill quickly and accurately, there’s an awful lot of inconsistency and random shenanigans that occur.
It's content creator cope. They need to tell themselves that it was worth climbing and therefore need to tell themselves that the ranked system is correct. They're blind to reality in the same way low elo players blame their team. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Humans make flawed systems INCLUDING THE RANKED LADDER. Humans also don't act perfectly or consistently, including your gameplay during your ranked climb. It's possible for bad players to wind up in high elo and good players to wind up in low elo. It's just more likely that you will climb if you focus on the things you can control, since that's the only thing you CAN do. (And sometimes that includes making a new account)
there’s hundreds of cases of players making alt accounts and NOT getting 5-10x their main accounts rank, but they don't post that to reddit XDD
Climbing 5-10x their elo yes maybe, but how about playing keeping that elo consistently, after around 20-25 games in that elo? what about a 100 or 200 games? Will you still have that inflated rank after climbing with a new account and then actually keep playing? Or will you start sinking to your old elo again?
@@timothymcphail this is such a delusional take, what evidence do you have to suggest a matchmaking system based on putting similarly skilled players up against each other every game is not fair? Anecdotal evidence of a few people being higher or lower than they should be proves nothing.
If you are a challenger player in silver you will not struggle, if you perform every game you will climb, because obviously dominating the map and making the enemy team unable to play the game will impact the game, how can you pretend that its just chance, literally how can you watch TF Blade smurf through low elo on a thousand different accounts over and over again and then act like its luck based? it makes literally no sense.
What does 5-10x their main account rank even mean?
Have you considered that players who play on smurf accounts may play the game in a different way than on their main? If you take a diamond mid laner and put them in plat, they are going in with a belief that they are a naturally superior player in every way. Given this belief, it's highly unlikely they will approach the game with the same amount of risk assessment and confidence as they would with players in diamond. They know that they can afford to be sloppier because their natural ability and decision making will afford them more opportunities to win the game. They will likely play aggressive, or in ways that they wouldn't on their main account. Next, consider their teammates. In addition to their own individual style, they have certain expectations of how teammates will act. What seems like an obvious decision for a support to roam or a top laner to lane swap isn't so intuitive. This can be frustrating for the smurfing player and feeds their feelings of superiority even more because the obvious plays their teammates should be making don't happen. The player tilts, plays worse, and becomes "hardstuck" as you suggest. This is why intensity is important because at large, what causes smurfs to become hardstuck is complacency.
Both of your scenarios of alt accounts or hardstuck low elo smurfs presume that the player will approach the games in the same manner as they would on their main. But the knowledge of playing in a lower elo changes your game play. If the system was indeed broken, wouldn't we hear many more stories of pro players becoming hardstuck in high diamond or masters? It just doesn't happen, because at the end of the day, good players will climb. Blaming the system is the easy way out.
just goes to show you riot does not care at all about making matchmaking good and fair.
your mmr isn't your skill limit. it's your skill average. you're always going to have games where you play better and games where you play worse so the mmr does factor how often your tilt.
skill level is the center of distribution not the absolute peak you sometimes play at. it doesn't make sense to expect someone to always play at the best they have ever played at every game. this means sometimes somebody else will play above their skill level in some number of games.
The games cooked, seems like you make no difference at any point in the game, and win or lose was determined from the lobby
It's wouldn't feel so bad if they were open about it, and the skews were better. I literally played a game about a week ago where my JG nunu was literally a new acct. Iron 1 and the enemy team had a platinum Fiddle/Diana JG/mid respectively. This was a bronze 2 lobby btw.
that's exactly what ppl refer to as "hardstuck" mate
Awesome video Curtis
What I've recently wondered is what if you queued ur main role secondary and secondary role as main. And then you permanently dodged when you got primary? And then you chose mid as primary so that you get secondary role more often. Would you then easily climb way above your actual skill level. Or would it make so little difference that it won't ever be worth it?
I disagree with Curtis that secondary role is a lever that Riot uses. The MMR system is hidden so we have no way of knowing but whenever Riot talks about offsetting role disparity they have only ever used to term "autofill." I believe the opposite of what you are saying is the optimal approach. You should queue primary/secondary as people normally do but if your secondary role is significantly worse just dodge when you get it because there's no offset on the other team.
Not long ago riot mentioned that they actually have started balancing around the fact that secondary isn't the same as primary. They mentioned it in a patch note not too long ago. So they do sometime admit to what they do in matchmaking.@@dojadoug
@@dojadoug You can't disagree when it's a fact that they use it as a lever. They talked about it in a patch note not too long ago. So Riot do talk about the matchmaking once in a while.
@@christis96 I would love to see this patch note because I read everything I can find that Riot puts out. Its very possible I'm forgetting but I can only ever recall seeing the word "autofill."
@@christis96 Hey, I went and found it. Thanks for the heads up! Glad to know they are finally doing this.
this game is stupid and people are finally growing up and leaving this stressful, 0 fun, toxic environment for better ones out there. community managers rule the game balancing and too many league influencers have huge influence on these managers decision.
Great vid. Ty!
The problem is that often times, these 1/10 or 9/10 chance of winning games come in waves.
Is it normal to drop 800 LP from last split? I finished master 17 LP now I'm emerald 4 0 LP 45% winrate 300 games idk what happened.
I was low diamond / low master now I'm stuck in gold
Probably a mental problem. Sure the system this split might be a bit harsher but that difference is never going to be 800 lp. A common trap people fall into is that they believe they are/deserve a certain rank due to previous experience. This often causes people to get into the mindset that “I just have to get in more games”, which in turn means that they don’t take every game as seriously.
In the end only you can find the answer to why you have dropped in rank. There can be 1000 different reasons, but the ranked system being bugged definitely isn’t one of them.
@@notieming Maybe you were inflated, but they also made ranks mean about 400lp more than they did last split. Emerald 4 is like D4 now
Yes, it is not just normal, but expected. This split Riot changed the MMR to Rang distribution so that there are fewer people in the higher ranks. Curtis made a video about it already if you are interested in the details.
@@murphyslaw3483 which video? I’d like to watch it
I truly believed the game to be kinda fair before the ranked reset this split.
Honestly, after this split, it is evident Riot has skewed MMR. Games don't make sense. Bronzies facing gold 4 last split, silvers facing plat players, iron players on silver lobbys, Diamond players in emerald... honestly the game feels like a chore. In addition, the playerbase is getting older and busier and this grinding mentality needs to go, ain't making the game difficult and harder that will bring players satisfaction. New players won't come in to the game due to the difficulty of the game and smurfing and duoing are in all time high.
Game feels like is literally against you all the time, it's just exhausting. Getting good at the game is not worth it when you realize all the effort you've put in this game will amount to nothing next split with another reset, another grind, another influx of inters, afkers, duo, smurfs and etc.
LP gains is a mess. Should've been a fixed amount of points. You win? 20 LP. you lose? 20 lp. Done. The ones who are good will collect lps and climb and those who are bad will derank. Losing 26 and winning 22 is just stupid. Some games you win 18 others you lose 30. That's so crazy. Game is super unbalanced, adc role is a joke, top lane feels awful to play, assassins are non-existent. But instead of fixing the game and the roster of characters, Riot touches mmr and ranked integrity. It is a shame because League is fun and after Worlds 2024 being such a success, it could bring the game to new heights, but ranked mode is borderline infuriating. It's not surprising people nowadays are slowly moving to PvE games as they tend to be stress-free.
I'm still playing league because of my OTP, but climbing through the ranks in this game is not worth your time and effort unless you can make money out of this somehow.
I remember my MMR got so bad to the point where I was gaining 17 LP for wins and losing 36 LP for losses. I was losing MORE THAN DOUBLE than what I gained, it was hell
@@celloj3703yeah because they had rank demotion protection that lasted forever. Now it doesn’t and I’ve seen no one have those gains or losses like that anymore.
Yesterday I got so tilted that I made a BINGO. With "Team dies pre 2:00", "4 man mid pre 10:00", "enemy sruvives with
So you literally made a confirmation bias card to tunnel your preconceived theories and further ignore any other factors? Cool 😂
@@Thedoctorr5 To be fair - I've made another one that's basically the original, but in reverse. So it's 'Team scores a kill before 2:00.' Died laughing while creating the whole thing. I called it THE IMPOSSIBLE BINGO. It is. It really is impossible.
I do lightly disagree on your take that they cant track who you are going to ban. If you go into your match history in client you can see who was banned. I do not believe that this isnt something that they track on their end.
I love you coach Curtis and yeah, you explained the pattern clearly but you just cant say the system works. How does it work that i have autofilled jungler and in enemy team its smurf in the jungle? None of mine or enemy players were autofilled except my jungler. The system may have pattern that makes sense but its nowhere near working fine.
18:52 so by this logic, wouldn't it be an easy abuse if you duo'd/queue sniped a friend and both choose main roles as secondary to swap in select?
Or even picking mid as main and jg as secondary as a jg main
That is not true. Recently worlds bootcamp one of the toplaners had 96% winrate ( 43 wins 3 loses or something ) from D2 to challenger.
Funny enought he still lost game against KeshaEUW ap nunu who basically smurfed on him stomping him.
The whole 40/40/20 split is not correct.
Rather what it is is simply you will stomp games fast or slow untill you reach your rank then you will have 50% winrate , thats the design of the system.
40/40/20 only applies if you are facing evenly skilled opponents. A Worlds level top laners is not facing equally matched players until the top of challenger so it's not indicative of the experience for the average player.
awesome video
love this
Totally off topic, I know, but maybe someone is in a similar situation
58-62% wr in emerald and im getting +18-19 and lose 21-22, goes anything for this or riot can't do the math?
Hard to find motivation to play when im winning more than losing but still getting less and less lp
Playing with people around my level, P1-E1 lets say
Hello Curtis, thanks for all your knowledge!
Can I ask you a favor?
if you have some time, Could you update this video to the "new" map? -> Mid Lane Fundamentals - WAVE MANAGEMENT - Everything On Minion Waves - Episode 3
i'm really stuck on this :/
Brazilian greetings o/
br da aquela curtida pra apoiar :D
I love to 'climb/' improve/ go up in the ladder but this game makes it impossible through soooo many ways.
We can't just play the game and slowly climb, nah You wull get demoted 3 times regardless.
You need some crazy ass videos like this, truly sad and pointles imo.
I think I’ve commented this recently. But there’s def a noticeable difference in Korea. My plat account got started at silver 4 this season. And like the banners are all silver. But everyone is playing like plat level.
And then on my secondary gold account it got started bronze 4. And everyone in bronze is playing like gold level lol.
At least for koreas standards of elo. The games are extremely competitive so it’s very fun…but mentally damaging and annoying seeing the bronze/silver borders lol
Curtis didn't talk about it in this video but there was a really hard ranked reset this split. I believe he's talked about it in other videos and in forums but this is the same on other servers as well. Its not uncommon to go down two full tiers (e.g., Diamond->Plat; Emerald->Gold; Plat->Silver).
20:57, yeah this isnt true btw and i can prove it. I have (like many people) multiple accounts. The difference is i play my otp on two accounts in the exact same way in the exact same role, 1 of them is in high diamond/masters, the other one is hard stuck emerald. You can say whatever you want abotu my mental when im playingbut the reality is im playing the exact same way on both accounts, and one is just getting unlucky/lucky. The reality is you can stumble in to huge streaks of loser que/winners que and end up in a rank you don't truly deserve
I strongly disagree that you only get 60 percent effort, there are players who achieve an 80% win rate in Challenger . Also getting a 100% win rate to Diamond is feat many people achieve. just get better. Aim to be so good that no one can stop you.
His point isn't that you can only get 60% win rate, he's saying that only 60% of the outcome is directly tied to matchmaking. If you're flexible with champs/roles, you can turn around a bad game that an OTP that was banned might not be able to.
Point is that this "game" is an esport. And most of the time your "teammates" are npc's who first time a champion and wait to get carried. Sometimes a teammate also plays to win and the game becomes playable.
auto lose is not rare lmao trust me
I outperform my lane opponent every single game, and still have a negative win rate. Game is rigged.😅😅
I highly doubt that the matchmaking system takes into account your otp
It doesn't directly know "this player is a kat otp", it's just an emergent result of how it works.
If the kat otp has their champ banned, it means they will play on a lower level than usual, effectively meaning the MMR of that player doesn't matter because that MMR was reached with kat.
It's absolutely feasible that a master kat otp plays only a diamond level Zed, for example. The system doesn't track that, but it will put you into the MMR that you reached with 98% kat games obviously, and that can change the odds of the game.
@@Gidon147 yeah BUT the MMR SYSTEM doesnt care about that. It doesnt know your only chanpion is katarina all it knows is you won X times, thus for the MMR SYSTEM, it still considers you that elo. Doesnt matter, and thats why in the long term otps need to have more champions and cheese strategies to climb only get you so far. And no dodging because your otp got banned or picked is not valid. Back in the day people had to know a wide variety of champions and there is so many in the game there is no excuse for being that "high elo" but so lacking in general skills you cant play decently with other champs
If you didn’t know! LoL Ranked match matching is designed to make you lose, this keeps you and everybody else at a balanced 50% win rate 👍
This guy is making me laugh. Can’t stop laughing. He is saying that 1 v9 games I play are winnable with all lanes feeding except me. I wanted to swear few appropriate words for him but I choose not to. Absolutely rubbish.
OHHHH! So my botlane dying 2 v 2 in first 3 mins of the game every 3rd game with me pathing towards botlane IS SOCIOLOGICAL DIFFERENCE! RIGHT! Give me a break. And it's not criticism towards split 3 exclusively. Entire season is dogshit. Elo inflation, putting 1 team in advantage due to the number of autofilled players, literally swapping people around role-wise (top main in the jungle, jungle main top etc) which was later confirmed by Riot because they said they fixed it, cencoring chat in game resulting in people literally refusing to communicate with each other which make previous point even more unbearable.
As much as some of your points are eye opening for many, as a whole it just looks like you try to defend Riot and their matchmaking system "because it's not that bad". But hey, I'm just emerald lvl player, what can I know right? I'm just a low elo in eyes of such a esteemed Challenger player, a Bronze with different coloure. Please tell me about playing single player game in team play based game and how other players don't matter as long as I'm doing better job.
Sorry but this thing is so delusional, it's crazy.
4:40 I knew it, these leavers ruining my games :D
i dont agree with this, because i think there are other things in the matchmaking algorithm that youre not taking into account.
for example, it think the algorithm can see if your the type of person that is likely to play more if you win or lose. So when youre like me and youre more likely to queue up again after a loss, or especially after a loss streak, and stop after a win, the algorithm know it and sets you up to lose more so you play the game more.
Conversely, i think the algorithm know if youre the kind of person to stop playing after a loss or keep playing after a win, and it will set you up to win more, so you play more.
This is how they use psychology to get you more addicted. naive if you think otherwise.
What’s up
You’re doing too much, it’s all about statistics and the competition. Statistically the lower ranks will have a lot more variables because these ranks are people who may or may not show dedication to learning the game. It’s honestly not hard to just view lower rank games and see game to game how different each one plays. You can coach your students and see they are dedicated to learning and then see others in the same rank and be like “wtf are they doing”. It’s because in lower ranks the disparity between someone just playing to play and someone wanting to learn and be better off fundamentals is huge. I have friends in P4 who don’t even know wave management or supports E4 who don’t even roam. THAT right there should tell you everything you need to know about the matchmaking not being able to pinpoint even matchmaking ESPECIALLY when we have a new distribution that was created to make people feel like they are getting better. Now the system all confused in matching players.
Holy shit fix your handwriting Curtis, nearly everything you wrote in the first 4 minutes is unreadable. You would genuinely be better off just using words, and gesturing with your hands.
coach curtis w the most mindnumbing L takes ive seen from a league "professional"
all this mental masturbation crafting imaginary situations based off imaginary data this boi is just a plug for Riot to cue soundbytes