As this is a feedback video I want to encourage you all to please give your feedback below. Steven and the team do read your comments (my condolences) so now is the perfect time to have your voice be heard. If you want to discuss the tank or just Ashes of Creation further, why not come join our discord community of MMORPG boomers and zoomers desperately waiting for this game that quite litterally, doesn't exist: discord.gg/muwNp8NhbB
Another great vid Narc. I hope your not overwhelmed with all this stuff. when this game gets big you’ll be rolling in the money and you’ll definitely deserve every penny.
for me things like active block, dodge, break free, and guard break like in eso is a good thing because it takes the rng out of what used to be entirely luck based things and while i think it should be limited how hard and pinpoint it should be with esos red flash and yellow flahs systems on big hits being a good way to make it so its not like its a skill issue necessarily but still force you to have to actively play AND letting you and your ability to respond correctly be what matters rather than a roll of the dice determining whether something is a hit or miss or block or full dmg.
like its only a issue when the action combat gets taken to the extreme of something like bdo where the difference between a good player and bad player using those base game action combat systems is that of a fucking mountain to a pebble unlike in eso where its not hard at all and reasonably if you have a brain, the block, dodge, break free, and guardbreak options should be like second nature in no time
personally i feel that if active block and really all mechanics like it flat out shouldnt have ANY sets or skills that really effect them enough so as to make them anything other than core mechs you need to consider. i feel thats part of the issue with esos gear design is they make sets that change the base mechanics the fucking norm. like beyond that they really dont need much more than that with i will say that mages, clerics, and summoners and anyone with those as their secondary should have a passive or perhaps active skill like a magic ward or something that allows for temporary use of magic over stamina which could make tanking even more interesting having skills that are toggles that let you on the fly perhaps on a long timer, switch out which resource your using primarily allowing for more competent tanks to make sure they can always get the timed blocks or be able to hold up a solid block temporarily if need. really i think thats the thing your not thinking about narc is that in a game like ashes, if you have your block up 24/7 than you cant build up threat and grit so really hold blocking would be a small temporary thing you would only do in moments where that extra bit of dmg mit on top of the grit you already built up is what you need to take all the damage your team was meant to take.
Giving the DPS responsibility for their mistakes with the skittish debuff is really smart and I don't know how I never thought of anything like that. Great idea dude. Nothing is more frustrating as a support main than having to fix other ppls carelessness in their role. Sometimes mistakes happen even to the best of players and giving them a tool to fix their own mistakes is far more valuable than forcing it on to other players who aren't making the mistake.
Another solution or maybe something to add to your idea of diminishing returns on active blocking is to have active blocking REDUCE threat. This would put more emphasis on the tank needing to choose what they want and need to block and further prevents something like new world where tanks put up their shield a few frames before every enemy attack lands, or even hold the button down. It makes sense as well from an immersion standpoint. If I was a mob and all my attacks were being blocked I wouldn’t be too interested in continuing to attack that target and would reassess to attack someone who is threatening but not blocking every attack.
I thought I was being original when I just posted this idea too but I can see you think the same thing. This makes a lot of sense to me, and can put it into more of a last resort category. Plus it doesnt affect PVP, where players will be avoiding focusing the tank anyway
I think you could also add a penalty for holding it for too long at once like the Smash Bros shield decreasing or similarly have effects that capitalise on characters blocking too often like guard breaks or attacks that require the tank to move quickly.
My suggestion would be that blocking drains your resources, so that if you are too careless with your mana (or whatever the tank is gonna have) a boss can drain all your remaining mana with a big hit and break your block and stun you. You could also add to that the tank is getting resources back for hitting attacks, wich would make blocking a skill of resource management.
So great to hear you emphasizing the importance of the animations. I'm grateful that New World had terrible animations, as that was the big red flag for me early on to stay away. I would love it if Steven could get some martial artists in a studio with mo-cap gear on to really capture some lifelike animations that are governed by physics.
This. It's pretty much impossible to critique much without actually getting our hands on it, except for the animations and taunting. Animations can make or break combat in a game. A good example is ESO where the weak combat animations make things feel awful.
using a binary skill system would make a meta of everyone using them in a specific rotation. closing out new players from dungeons that don't understand the timing of the binary skill rotation required for tanks to keep threat. it does sound cool though
For the distracted Debuff or Skittish. It would recommend it also have PvP applications. EX: Distract: If used on a Player. If attacking any other play then the Tank 15% reduced dmg. Skittish: If attacked. Dmg is reduced going to you by 15% But overall I would rather Skittish and Distract not be a move but a status effect that is part of a move. Example: Add Distract to Tremoring Below Ad Skittish to a DPS or Healer Escape or shield/dmg prevention ability. With this, the move is already used for PvP but also with its threat mechanic is PvE useful as well.
1. Tank does less damage than DPS, but generates more Aggro per damage done. 2. Back attacks do more damage. 3. When DPS attacks the back, and tank the front, aggro is slightly in the tanks favor, if he does not stand there and "turtles" with his block, like you suggest. 4. If mob turns around and chases the dps, now the tank can do back damage, regaining aggro in a reasonable time. There you go. A fully functioning tank mechanic without any complicated doodads which at the same time completely negates your worries about active block. You're welcome.
I would like to see a knock-back effect from strong opponents to where you are knocked back up to 3 tiers of distance levels depending on the strength of the opponent. Medium to large shields can automatically negate 1 tier with active blocking. Tanks can have two talents to negate two more tiers, and offtank classes can have an optional 1 talent to negate a possible 2 tiers. This would allow tanks to stand their ground keeping agro, as well as give more of a reason for active blocking. I would also make one of the pure tank talents that negate 1 tier of knock-back passive, so that if a tank does not make an active block he still only gets pushed back a max of 2 tiers vs. 3. Active blocking correctly keeps them in place. Also, block sounds when blocking make it really feel immersive. To fix holding down block just make it drain whatever energy system the tank class uses. Timed blocks can give benefits as well for more skillful play.
You killed it Narc!! I really liked that you gave great advice on making the tank and the animations better you hit all my concerns on the head. My role has been main tank in Mmos for years I’m just glad you identified all the same issues I had. Great job!
I was a main raid healer in early wow (first 3 explosions) and loved the way I had to work directly with the tank to succeed. They would us CD so I can rest and when next big hit, I’d pour on the heals… Good times.
I am a firm believer that threat has never been a good mechanic to interact with. It's hidden by default (in other games you needed a threat management add-on) and it also ruins the fun for the dps because they need to track a hidden resource. The tank update was a massive L in philosophy and doesn't push the genre forward in any way. Very unfortunate
Some good Ideas. Love the reference to BDO animations - could learn a thing or two there. Also in Warhammer Online the active ability - 'Hold the Line' could be something they go with, requires stamina, and only last for so long, can move about and if many of you are in pvp, you can create a legit shield wall, that benefit guilds who use it properly for formation tactics. Also dps have a detaunt anility that can get them out of agrro pretty good too.
I think about taunt being a debuff that will make the target receive x times more threat from caster for x seconds, but the issue is taunt cooldown and the way that it will work with multiple tanks/targets. Bosses can have an "Irritated" state, when the threat they receive will be equal to the damage received, so the tank must use the taunt. Or make the taunt available only in the case when the boss' main target had used defensive ability.
What if active block was on a CD? You can block one hit no questions asked but the block goes on CD for x seconds. Or if reduces damage and attack speed of those who's blocked but produces threat toward the tank for that individual mob
It's not really an active block then, its just another action bound to right click (or whatever you have block bound to) Producing threat, if it doesnt already, might work but it might be abusable without a CD
It should be a triggered ability with a cooldown...not some hybrid action ability that a player can just hold. It's absolutely stupid the way it is now.
@@wiliestrogue2924 Its not like they can hold it forever - in the showcase health still goes down, but for a fraction of what an unblocked hit would do. It should probably take from stamina (which they don't have yet) before taking from health. It could even take larger and larger chunks from stamina then health so additional blocked attacks are essentially penalize the player. I.e. take 5% sta, then 8%, 11%, etc mimicking how more time spent blocking would tire someone out faster
@@vinapocalypse Doesn't matter how long it is...Active Block for tanks is just plain stupid. There are MANY MMO main tank players that will just give up on the class or the game altogether because of this step down the "Action Combat" road that nobody that really plays MMO's wants.
Sorry to sound like a broken record always bringing up DAoC, but it's the MMO I had the most experience with. My main was a S/S Tank and a lot of what was mentioned about taunting and controlling the flow of battle was my life! And it is exactly what is fun about tanking. You'll never do much damage, my paladin abilities helped, but not much, but you still felt like a needed member of the team. I had an active taunt ability that I used to range pull mobs and draw agro off if they switched to dps or healers. It really is a necessary function.
I %100 agree with the taunting rotation that you pitched, it allows for gameplay to be more interactive and makes players think a little more! Taking a look at BDO for the one handed animations is also perfect. One thing that bothers me a little bit about MMOs is that when they swing they seem to forget about their shield. A shield is used to protect themselves at all times in an engagement, it would make more sense for the shield to be in front of the player similar to how shields are used in real life.
*They never showed if players standing behind the Tank's Aegis can use Active Block to reduce damage done to the tank.* *I like having a Provoke or Taunt as a Tank, but I also like Threat re-directs, using predictable DPS or Healers threat for yourself. Both should exist as Tank tools imo. Active block doesn't bother me, because additional threat isn't going out while using it. I'd also like to see the Courage stacks on top of the Grit icon, so you don't have to look in the upper left.*
I agree about the active blocking in some extend. I love the idea of having active blocking because that made the shield you equip extist instead of being just an item that give you some stats , I also like the idea steven mentioned about adding a parry system that reward the player for blocking in the perfect time, but is true that you can't make people just holding active blocking, It need cooldown, stamina or something that prevent you of spam active blocking. I have to said about the argument you give about holding a key is not playing is wrong you are just miminizing it, is the same if I say that you are also not playing when attacking because you are just pressing buttoms its not that different pressing more than one key than holding it
When u mention the mage wearing heavy and caring a shield and mace made got me so pumped not to mention your absolutely right role isn’t as important right now as the actual mechanics of the abilities
I think a fun way to solve this problem would be an ability that pushes the dps monkey whose only paying attention to their buttons right out of the way of the boss
Regarding Taunts, what i'm really hoping the'll do is have an augment that adds taunt to a skill, or a rankup of certain skills that add a taunt, instead of a skill that taunts. This opens up a lot more build potential. In addition, this will greatly enhance the way you can build the character / role combinations. (Eg Tank as secondary archtype has this as an augment for skills, so you can be a mage/tank that has a taunting or increased aggro skill(s) to do niche tanking, or (PvX) allow for a build that can deliberatly overaggro tanks so that you can do some weird pvp engagements on worldbosses...
You're completely right about this. Animations for directions, I brought this up in the AoC forum, I also gave the example of BDO, it is so smooth and feels satisfying to play, I loved that I could control my positioning while also striking and it adds depth and a more skill based gameplay. I think any game needs to expand off this, it stops your character looking constipated while you're moving ( I'm looking at you FFXIV. )
Regarding your animation suggestion, each animation also needs points in wich it can transition to a different animation, if for example you are crowdcontrolled or use an off global cooldown ability. In addition, different races, and different weapons will require different animations, and transition points. So a "forward swing" With only one transition point could end up being 18 animations already. And slower weapons would need more transition points.
To be honest, I think it would make more sense to replace active blocking with a defensive Skill, that has a lasting effect and a cooldown attached to it. With active blocking you end up either with what Narc already described (holding down one button for 80% of the time) or just as bad: You non stop tab the button for the "timed block" effect (like what noobs do in Sekiro). I'm also not sure what to think about the condition system of AoC currently. I know Narc praised it, but I suspect this game will become a HUD stare game: You can't focus on the fight before you, but instead you non stop stare at your skill- and buff bar and spam skills, that get off CD instantly while having to do reactionary stuff, if certain debuffs get applied on you. I hate this. It's one of the things I hate about GW2 combat and why I think their combat system got worse over the years. Question for you Narc: I know you like GW2 a lot, I do too. Do you like the more recent combat of GW2 more or do you miss the more simplistic, a bit slower paced combat of the good old vanilla GW2 more? I personally figured, that I enjoy less skills, with more situational use and higher impact more, than having a lot of skills with watered down effects. I don't like stale rotations, that are best in 95% of all combat situations. I like it more, if I have to be good at analysing the situation and using my skills accordingly. I'd rather have a game with a simplistic combat system (tab target with like 8 active skills for example). But then get the enemy AI and encounter compositions so well done, that you can't just play every fight the same. But you'd have to observe and adapt quickly. I have to admit, I am a PvP enjoyer and I get bored quickly by PvE, if I notice, I can do the very same thing over and over to win. PvP is exciting, because it's kind of unpredictable. Getting this form of excitement into the PvE would be the absolute peak of design skill.
i noticed there was no taunt in the reveal. was just hoping that A, they hadnt worked it in yet, or B, he hadnt gotten it yet due to level, i think they were 13-15 lvl. curious to see what it would look like if they didnt add in a taunt. Ill just take another hit of copium and wait for the next update ig.
On the subject of taunting, you could have certain skills that generate hate, obviously, but I'll list some of my own ideas on the matter. 1. A charged attack that does more damage the more it charges but is easily interuptable, imagine the threat level rising as it charges and the mob who lost aggro looks over the shoulder like oh Sh**! 2. Backstab, you wouldn't wanna keep your back to someone who can shank you! 3. Some kind of attack skill that interrupts the enemy who's not focused on you, frustrating them to no end. 4. If you for some reason are a magic based tank, you could have some kind of switcheroo spell that can change places with the aggroed team m8 if you currently aren't attacked. 5. Just being a healer can draw aggro in games, you can use that to tank as well, if you arn't too squishy. 6. You could have some kind of grapple skill that holds the enemy for a bit while you and it pummel each other. There can certainly be other ways but this is what comes readilly to mind from my sleep deprived brain. I used to play Anarchy Online, funny story, going to one of the high end areas with my tank, I was fighting a normal mob with just auto attack, no skills, it got me down to half health and I was like help me brother, I'm dying! but when I had killed it, I still had more hp left than my max lvl bro had fully healed. Moral of the story, I was so complacent that I could handle most things I was used to that I forgot to use abilities...
Add a resolve bar if you wear a shield, you can only block if you have resolve, if you tank blows your resolve bar goes down. As for the threat mechanic, I would appreciate if support classes like Bard or whatever could make DPS'ers lose threat. Threat can be so important, but can also become so mundane if tanking hits as non-tanks is easy... I agree with you that group play needs to be very hard; if you pull threat you need to die in about two hits. If you pull threat the tank shouldn't just be able to taunt the mob off you. It should require more resources (not just an instant cast every 10sec). Would be so interesting to play an MMO where threat is one of the most important mechanics and playing most efficiently requires the whole group to work together.
I can see someone has said this below already: What do you think of the concept of active blocking actively draining your "threat"? So while holding down the click, your threat will slowly drain. You could then have a successful block drain more threat. This then means that it doesn't affect the choice of using it in PVP, which is fine because players can be smarter than PVE mobs and generally know not to attack the tank anyway.
9:22 "Tank's kit to control the situation comfortably" yeah, maybe one skill which rebuild tank position is not best? so hard situation and random wipeout are possible?
I think we need to remember this is only level 15 gameplay who knows what potential skills are soon to be available before we try to add entire gameplay mechanics
Diminishing returns on Active Block makes a lot of sense. I'd be interested to see if passive threat generation can be gained through the class passive system, or if that's what they intend. If you can combine classes like they propose, any class could tank this way. A mage/tank hybrid generating threat through class perks, for example.
Its already only 50% mitigation thats going to be governed by a stamina meter potentially. It doesnt need diminishing returns when u consider all that plus maintaining threat while the dps is still doing damage while ur sitting there trying to tank a big pull. So maintaining threat mixing in attacks and using shield when absolutely neccesary seems really fun and interesting tank gameplay. It doesnt need diminishing returns.
I like your ideas regarding taunts and whatnot. I am a sucker for animation. I watch hour long reload animation videos. I understand gameplay is feedback is far more important right now but this is what draws my eye the most. I posted my feedback on the fourms already. Really, I'm only commenting to please Al-Gore. 17:21
Instead of active block you should be able to add talent points into passive shield ability. Higher level gives you a better full block chance, and a low stagger chance, with higher damage mitigation per level. Again, tanks need to be able to spend points on being more tanky while sacrificing damage dealing ability. It's a TANK There aren't supposed to be 30% tanks in the game. It is a class that fits with certain personalities.
This! Having tanks that can deal damage AND have huge hitpoint pools and armor is ridiculous...especially when you figure in PvP. Tanks should be balanced for PvP first...then PvE. Otherwise they just become completely unbalanced.
I feel taunt can be like you said in video, a combo need a set up debuff and a trigger debuff so if tank complete a whole combo(shield assault+tremoring bellow) it’s taunt, and tank did the set up debuff or the trigger debuff it’s a taunt too. I feel active block can synergies with some skills like Shield Assault and Aegis. Shield Assault become chargeable skill when holding active block and Shield Assault at same time to makes Shield Assault able to travel further and do more threat etc but cost more mp/endurance. Aegis’s range become larger etc while holding active block and further cost mp/endurance per second player are holding active block. On top of that can further design the risk if player didn’t pay attention on how much mp/endurance he left to use active block but still use active block will make him has no strength to block and stunned by monster, and maybe you lose threat every time you taking damage when holding active block. The hammer weapon attack animations are better but it’s not good as 2H sword and dagger just like you said in video.
Excellent feedback, the taunt system that you propose is quite interesting. Intrepid has to find new ways of making classic tanking fun, so more people enjoy playing the roll and the same time change some people's mindset, such as the balding streamer, that thinks threat management is boring and shouldn't exist.
I’m actually growing more concerned with their ability to create complex and compelling combat as the months go on. I KNOW they aren’t showing the augments and the characters were level 17 or so but thus far, the combat displayed in any showcase has looked very stiff, shallow, simplistic, and boring. I dislike the idea of active block but will wait to see how it feels when playing. I’m reserving hope that the full kit, fully augmented, and with full groups ads substantial skill cap.
You need to bear in mind that these showcases are pre Alpha, there is a long road ahead towards polishing everything, they are just showing the progress and asking for feedback to make sure they are moving on the right direction. The alpha 2 phase is going to last a long period, in order to collect feedback and improve everything that needs to be improved, theeeen the game will go the beta test and have the last finishing touchs before the game is fully released.
@@Danlivions Yeah, I’m incredibly aware of this and very much so hoping this means the combat should look as terrible as it does now. My main concern is more so the direction they are going in now (I.e. the incredibly limited combat they have shown) doesn’t look like it is moving in a direction I would find compelling and rather seems stiff, simplistic, and boring. So I’m trying to keep both in mind of giving constructive feedback like they ask and say, no, move away from an overly old school combat approach.
I'm quite curious about the Guardian now, increased threat, adding further damage reduction to abilities. More CC. If they do make taunts and threat impactful in PVP that could make the Guardian much better than I might of imagined, at least in the larger group PVP settings and maybe even arenas. He's probably gonna be heavy footed though and not so mobile, that's the only thing.
I agree with the animations needing to flow. I also think the fighters ability animations need reworking badly. The spin to win looks goofy, and the sword welding fighter ability making a giant magical hammer appear is out of place. He's a fighter not a mage. Where does this magic weaponing summoning fit into a fighter? Maybe it works with one of the 64 combinations in the future but for the melee focused class it's just not right. My first set of thoughts is on the aegis ability... #1 tanks shouldn't be statted or geared to do damage, that's not their job, so the damage reduction bit is useless. #2 in a good group there should be very limited amounts of time where group members are standing behind the tank. The tank should turn enemies away from the group so as to reduce incoming damage on the dps. So the ability protecting only those behind the tank is semi useless if the group knows what they are doing. #3 if these areas are meant for 8 man groups 50% of damage from all those sources is just too much. This ability has great potential but needs a rework, Second set of thoughts are one the taunt. #1 I believe there should be a single target hard taunt that can instantly max your threat number on that target for a limited time. After that time is up you have to maintain your threat until that single target ability comes off cool down. That way you can start a fight with your entire group and not instantly lose agro to the dps. #2 I think a good way to maintain agro/threat during the fight would to give the tank an AOE ability that takes the threat generated by the dps and applies it to the tank for a specific time. Or you could create a debuff status affect that reduces the amount of threat generated by damage. Which would give the tanks threat generation abilities great sway. This would allow the tank to manage their threat level as needed without breaking what the enemies are already doing. It would also increase the need for the team to be a cohesive unit dps know to hold their hardest hitting abilities for when the tank negates their threat. Then boom we get a great synergy. I also think that aoe threat generator is important so that the tank isn't forced into chasing every individual monster around in order to build any threat. That is tedious and not fun. Active block. I think active blocking is 100% needed, but only for specific things. I think blocking large attacks should help generate your courage or whatever they called it. I would love to see a parry system where blocking one of those large attacks gives you something. I agree that standing and holding block is bad, and a good tank shouldn't be doing that. However instead of diminishing returns on the block I think standing holding block for over a certain amount of time should cause your threat to drop in large steps the longer you hold it. It makes more sense to me that if you play turtle the enemies won't be threatened by you. Lastly it's kind if a nitpick but I don't think you should have the class/archetype named tank, if others are able to fill that role. Are we going to have a dps archetype and a healer archetype?
Personally happy with the tank being able to hunker down to provide pure defence (with little attack) but agree it needs to have its limits (whether that be based on stamina or similar limits) or timer. I see nothing wrong with a tank being primarily defence but it needs to be combined with the rotation and involve timing (timing is everything imo)
Imo blocking should cost stamina (or another block resource), and while you hold it, not recharge any stamina. You should also not be able to cast any offensive abilities while blocking.
Tank Pull: Applies Snare. Tank Stomp: Applies Trip on Snare. Me and my 5 Tank Friends in Group: Happy. Our Enemies that we pass around and ground, to just pass around and ground: Let me know when I can play again, mm'kay?
While I agree taunt is a key ability for a tank in PVE, it didn't work in PVE. Therefore tanks were bit useless in PvP. But if you increase the shielding role of a tank, it works both in PVE & PVP, because give enemies a reason to attach the tank to get rid of the shields, therefore getting though to hit the DPS.
i wish i could get high on copium but i'm almost immune to psychotropic substances. as for the animations you're right. for me they were the biggest draw to BDO when i started playing it. gameplay and mechanics are something you have to play the game in order to see, understand and judge, they can't be an impactful marketing material no matter how good they are. graphics and animation is what the potential players can see and understand at a glance. eye candy is for getting people through the door, gameplay is for keeping them in, it very rarely works the other way around.
Fortnight also uses UE5. So great suggestion! Missing taunt is a good thing PVP wise, But PVE, you nailed the issue. They need aTaunt that only works in (PVE) PARTY. All problems solved. Your suggestion would be ideal.
Tank looks well like tank, nothing ground breaking nor shocking was shown kind of everything you'd expect from every generic fantasy game, heavy armor with shield taunting enemies... hope it will get more diverse with all those class combinations, but if it ends up this well it is what it is. I my self main tank in every game where it is possible and was interested in mage/tank combo in AoC with hopes that combo will be a bit more then paladin like class using arcane magic instead of holy magic
Holy crap! I totally agree with everything you said about the problems with tanking and modern MMOs versus how it used to be. I used to be a raid main tank in EverQuest and then I was a raid main tank in world of Warcraft back when it was still fresh and new. I tried playing wow recently and I just couldn't stay interested. I'm sure modern raiding is exciting (maybe?), but the majority of tanking that most people are going to do are in groups. Tanking in the recent dungeon finder groups was way too easy. I barely had to worry about anything. "Easy" might be fun for a little bit, but long term it's just boring. Without any adversity what's the point ?
maybe block should just be like vanilla wow, a stat that has a chance of triggering and completele negating anykind of dmg from an attack aswell as debuffs or anything?
Active blocking shouldn't be punished via stamina - it should be rewarded. I think every time you successfully actively block you should get rage (or whatever ashes equivalent) - that you can spend on damage. However, every second you're actively blocking you're losing dps - so it incentives timing blocks for big hits and going back to damage.
But there's plenty of tank players who don't even bother with damage so that's not really an incentive. Better to freeze cooldowns while active blocking while not being hit. Or something similar like not recharge stamina.
I was about to criticize you thinking that you were only comparing with world of warcraft until you got to black desert and you said what typical word of warcraft player doesn't understand 10/10
please send this video to ashe of creation you explained it perfectly and what i have been saying for a long time A GAME OF 2023 cannot be worse than black desert in physics with UNREAL 5 PLEASE!!
I agree that the animations need some major reworking. They seem far too stiff or even give off the wrong impression. The spell and attack effects are even worse though. I can't even tell who's who or what weapons are being used through the constant large flashes covering everything us. A simple solution might be to shrink all the effects down by 80-90% and add some transparency. It doesn't feel good to do some big flashy move if you can't even see you character when they do it.
Threat is useless in PVP. I want to know how tanking works in pvp, since this is supposed to be a pvp-centric game. Hopefully they will lean on how SWTOR handles tanks, as that is by far the best pvp-tanking I have ever seen.
please send this video to ashe of creation you explained it perfectly and what i have been saying for a long time A GAME OF 2023 cannot be worse than black desert in physics with UNREAL 5 PLEASE!!
Still think a stamina system would be good specifically for dodging and active blocking. Simple 0 to 100. Stamina would drain slowly when active blocking but takes additional hits the more it actively mitigates damage. Potions, food, tank passives, and some specific augmented Bard & Cleric skills can play a role in stamina regen/restoration, but tanks will still need to manage threat/dps so guarding all day won't be great. Wanna believe every tank-affiliated class has their active block changed in a unique way representative to the class too but that can happen AFTER we find a good direction.
I agree with narcs ideas. Both on taunt and blocking. Making aggro management should be a more involved mechanic. NOT to the degree that a tank can't hold aggro on the same focus target but potentially on offtargets. So making taunt a player combo is a good idea. The DPS has an ability that makes a mob skittish. This ability should be under gcd but basically have no or a very low cooldown. The DPS's ability should NOT require to target the mob because that can be a total shitshow when a lot of characters are on screen. BUT íf the dps actively targets the mob the range of the ability should increase to the normal attack range of the rest of abilites so that more skilled groups have ability to apply taunt before the mob is half across the room. The debuf of skittish should also not last longer than 10 seconds. The tanks abilities to distract SHOULD require to target the mob. I could even so that these 2 debuffs combined would even work in pvp. If a player is taunted the target is being switched to the tank and the taunted players hit chance is reduced by like 66%. A player can only be taunted every 2 minutes or so and the taunt debuff lasts for 5-10 seconds. The hit rate reduction applies to all targets other than the tank and a tank player can never apply the skittish debuff on another player therefore not benefit from a taunt themselves.
I've been preaching the same thing months ago. Active blocking is going to create a meta where they'll be the Main tank on the boss, just holding down a button to actively block. Off tank will be used for a tab target player running around collecting adds. 50% damage reduction across the board is another issue, There's many different types of damages and if you give active blocking 50% less overall damage, the build diversity is thrown out the window. I agree with a resource burner and diminishing returns, but We would have to see them in game. Because tanks can be ANY Class combination with certain gear, I think they should have a UI screen for Active block where it lets you CHOOSE which benefits you want while you active block. You're a rogue that's being a dodge tank? Check mark 10% more dodge chance and 10% less damage taken. Want to be a Sponge tank? Checkmark the 10% more stam and 10% damage return. We we're promised countless builds and giving a 50% flat mitigation isn't the answer the these "builds" or for active blocking. They have to come up with a way to add diversity for builds with active blocking. Last ramble. We haven't seen PvP yet, but they should really give classes two builds, PvP and PvE - your class kit, talents, skills, stats, etc. should act differently depending on the activity that's happening.
Easiest way is just to can the Active Block idea. Anything else just makes Tank combat convoluted and unfun...or broken in PvP. I HATE the idea of abilities working differently in PvP vs. PvE. It makes no sense from any perspective...other than to synthetically balance game play.
Simple cure... a successful active block generates grit...grit has stacks and is a resource. Skills that use grit generate more threat/distracted/taunt...
I find it pretty hard to understand whats going on mechanically in the game currently. I think steven said there are nameplates he just prefers to play with them off? Not sure I agree with you on TBC tanking. If you walked straight into a pack as a non-tank then sure you would die pretty quick but if the tank didn't have aggro on one or two mobs then it usually wasn't such a big deal, particularly for the plate wearing classes. If its going to be hard for the tank to have threat I would like that its Preferable that the tank have aggro (on non-boss enemies) but not mandatory. Plus this helps gives a reason for plate wearing dps to be wearing plate. Why not if you aren't going to use it now and then? I'm team active blocking :D Do agree though that the gameplay can't become just purely blocking. Whether its tank busters or just a general damage reduction it should be something you sometimes use, not always. Sure holding block isn't crazy gameplay but hitting a button every gcd isn't always the most exciting thing either. My brain is tired of always be pressing a button to maximize dps instead of thinking through my actions
i would like to see the idle stance of the 2h be more realistic.... they look really bad just standing there with the sword held up to their chest.... it doesnt look like the weapon has any weight see gw2 idle stance
Look up Tera Lancer gameplay and just watch they do on the bosses. You mentioned having not played it and that its shut down so it doesn't matter, But the game had excellent tank design worth looking at. You'll notice immediately that while the Lancer *could* simply hold block, they do not. They are incredibly aggressive and use properly timed active blocks to achieve "Perfect Defense" triggers. The way threat works in a world where DPS can actually take it from you, Simply holding block will kill your team. Its a defensive tool to be used at the right time. Much like a Dodge roll, and why i likened it to dodging. The advantage for a Tank to Block an attack instead of physically moving to avoid it is mob control. You want to keep the mob where it is but also need to neutralize an attack. Blocking it holds the enemy in place where a dodge would disrupt its position to follow you. Also, Valkyries and Warriors in BDO had Active Blocking too :P FFXIV is a terrible example for defensive abilities in an MMO. Boss encounters are made on extremely scripted timers and the cooldowns for DR abilities are matched to those timers. Its never a choice to use a defensive. There's nothing to "Save" it for. The boss is doing a thing that demands you use one of your cooldowns to survive it. As long as you don't activate it *outside* of the explicit "use cooldown now" window, you will always have at least 1 cooldown ready to be used for that tank buster. Thats boring as hell. Tanks in XIV are nothing more than Blue DPS these days. Good enemy and boss design is what makes or breaks active blocking. If you're truly worried about tanks just holding down Block, you can always have all your threat on every mob engaged with you decay by 1% per second you hold the block up. You'd only be able to hold it for a few seconds before some DPS or a Healer rips hate right off you. Snap Blocking is the purpose of active blocks. Not turtling. Which fits in with you wanting it to be a timed parry mechanic.
Amazing video Narc, you are really on point with your autistic knowledge! Really hope they incorperate the basic attack style of BDO, that would be awesome. I am so unsure about the active blocking, feels like it doesn't fit the combat system at all. I would rather it just be a regular cooldown ability that has a fixed duration. I did like your suggestion for Threat, maybe the boomers would be upset though. Anyway, gj dude, keep up the good work
Pure tanks should have several taunts available, on cooldown. Single target, multiple target, and an aoe taunt. More in your kit to do easier what you are meant to do. Offtanks should have a more limited list, representing the fact they are not pure tanks, but dip into some things a pure tank class can. This helps represent the choices players make for their base and archetypes.
Honestly I dont think I could ever play a tank thats just a big guy with big armor with a big sword who facetanks everything. Active blocking makes tanking better on lots of different ways. How do I know this? I've played Tera online.
Funny how they started with graphics and everything which is normally “last in cycle” development wise and now the mechanics come into play: won’t work.
Come on my dude... I don`t remember since when but basically Tanks for a while now had "Agro Generation". Meaning: They still build and are inherently tankier than DPSes..., the price for which is less DPS, because otherwise no one would build actual fragile DPS... But ... Their skill have this "fake" dmg ... or "Agro Generation" basically their abilities hit for a lot less dmg (less DPH, less DPH) but they have this artificially increased, felt by the mob, super high DMG (that does not actually reduces the boss`s HP) but it makes the mob itself feel as if the tank >is< the >top dog< dps and thus keeps it`s interest on him/her rather than it`s actual killer the DPS with his or her`s >real< dmg... It goes in numerical totally made up, by me, value something like this... DPS hits for 500 + 500 + 500 actual legit dmg by a skill or whatever... post and pre all the penetrations/resistances permutations... Tank Hits another ability at the same time that hits for 300 (real dmg) + 400 (fake dmg) (700 total, perceived by the mob dmg) + 300 (real dmg) + 400 (fake dmg) (700 total, perceived by the mob dmg) + 300 (real dmg) + 400 (fake dmg) (700 total, perceived by the mob dmg)... The DPS hits the mob for 1500 real dmg that time and he or she is on the top of the DPS meter player wise, as expected, the tank hits for 900 Real dmg and 1200 fake dmg for a total of 2.1k perceived by the mob dmg so it keeps attacking him instead of the DPS... it`s the same way for the purpose of gameplay Healer`s heal are seen by the mob as DMG targeted as him as well... because after the relevant calculations... it sort of is... and the trick is for that number to still not got higher than what the tank is doing... Of course Agro do tend to ~ toggle around so in the end of the day have your Fingers on the I Frames ... in regardless... of course if it is not 7 skill locked combat game ~or something... ~ *rolling eyes*.
My concern - that you jokingly touched upon - is that all the tank abilities are Action Combat. There's no tab abilities or soft tracking. So more and more it's moving full action combat rather than hybrid. I'll pay Action Combat, but they need to stop calling it hybrid combat when it's clearly not what it is.
I don't know, I prefer the oldering method of taunting. Especially considering that Tanks do little DPS it'll be difficult to build up threat. Over complicating the taunt systems will only lead to what was shown in this very video, a Tank that simply cannot keep agro
I think that managing your aggro should be a part of gameplay as a DPS too. Trying to do as much dps as possible at all times is not good game design, it's too basic. We need mechanics like where at times you need to move behind the tank to shift aggro off themselfs. Or we end up with the same old crap where Tanks carry the entire raid and DPS drool.
As this is a feedback video I want to encourage you all to please give your feedback below. Steven and the team do read your comments (my condolences) so now is the perfect time to have your voice be heard.
If you want to discuss the tank or just Ashes of Creation further, why not come join our discord community of MMORPG boomers and zoomers desperately waiting for this game that quite litterally, doesn't exist: discord.gg/muwNp8NhbB
Another great vid Narc. I hope your not overwhelmed with all this stuff. when this game gets big you’ll be rolling in the money and you’ll definitely deserve every penny.
for me things like active block, dodge, break free, and guard break like in eso is a good thing because it takes the rng out of what used to be entirely luck based things and while i think it should be limited how hard and pinpoint it should be with esos red flash and yellow flahs systems on big hits being a good way to make it so its not like its a skill issue necessarily but still force you to have to actively play AND letting you and your ability to respond correctly be what matters rather than a roll of the dice determining whether something is a hit or miss or block or full dmg.
like its only a issue when the action combat gets taken to the extreme of something like bdo where the difference between a good player and bad player using those base game action combat systems is that of a fucking mountain to a pebble unlike in eso where its not hard at all and reasonably if you have a brain, the block, dodge, break free, and guardbreak options should be like second nature in no time
i see no reason a active block SHOULD have sets as sets that encourage pure blocking is as you said, boring and ruins a lot of the fun.
personally i feel that if active block and really all mechanics like it flat out shouldnt have ANY sets or skills that really effect them enough so as to make them anything other than core mechs you need to consider. i feel thats part of the issue with esos gear design is they make sets that change the base mechanics the fucking norm. like beyond that they really dont need much more than that with i will say that mages, clerics, and summoners and anyone with those as their secondary should have a passive or perhaps active skill like a magic ward or something that allows for temporary use of magic over stamina which could make tanking even more interesting having skills that are toggles that let you on the fly perhaps on a long timer, switch out which resource your using primarily allowing for more competent tanks to make sure they can always get the timed blocks or be able to hold up a solid block temporarily if need.
really i think thats the thing your not thinking about narc is that in a game like ashes, if you have your block up 24/7 than you cant build up threat and grit so really hold blocking would be a small temporary thing you would only do in moments where that extra bit of dmg mit on top of the grit you already built up is what you need to take all the damage your team was meant to take.
Giving the DPS responsibility for their mistakes with the skittish debuff is really smart and I don't know how I never thought of anything like that. Great idea dude. Nothing is more frustrating as a support main than having to fix other ppls carelessness in their role. Sometimes mistakes happen even to the best of players and giving them a tool to fix their own mistakes is far more valuable than forcing it on to other players who aren't making the mistake.
M+ in WoW 💀
Another solution or maybe something to add to your idea of diminishing returns on active blocking is to have active blocking REDUCE threat. This would put more emphasis on the tank needing to choose what they want and need to block and further prevents something like new world where tanks put up their shield a few frames before every enemy attack lands, or even hold the button down.
It makes sense as well from an immersion standpoint. If I was a mob and all my attacks were being blocked I wouldn’t be too interested in continuing to attack that target and would reassess to attack someone who is threatening but not blocking every attack.
This
I thought I was being original when I just posted this idea too but I can see you think the same thing. This makes a lot of sense to me, and can put it into more of a last resort category.
Plus it doesnt affect PVP, where players will be avoiding focusing the tank anyway
That's really a quite clever and elegant idea!
I love the active blocking system and this basically fixes the issue we can have with it.
While I’m a fan of active block I like your suggestions and counter arguments. Especially the diminishing returns for holding it down. Great vid 👍🏽
Ya he really thinks thing through.I May not always agree but I always understands. (I always agree 🐑)
I think you could also add a penalty for holding it for too long at once like the Smash Bros shield decreasing or similarly have effects that capitalise on characters blocking too often like guard breaks or attacks that require the tank to move quickly.
My suggestion would be that blocking drains your resources, so that if you are too careless with your mana (or whatever the tank is gonna have) a boss can drain all your remaining mana with a big hit and break your block and stun you. You could also add to that the tank is getting resources back for hitting attacks, wich would make blocking a skill of resource management.
I really like your idea for how AoC can do taunts. Also looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts on augments.
So great to hear you emphasizing the importance of the animations. I'm grateful that New World had terrible animations, as that was the big red flag for me early on to stay away. I would love it if Steven could get some martial artists in a studio with mo-cap gear on to really capture some lifelike animations that are governed by physics.
This. It's pretty much impossible to critique much without actually getting our hands on it, except for the animations and taunting. Animations can make or break combat in a game. A good example is ESO where the weak combat animations make things feel awful.
Especially considering the animators seem to be of the ballerina school of combat. (Just look at the early show cases)
using a binary skill system would make a meta of everyone using them in a specific rotation. closing out new players from dungeons that don't understand the timing of the binary skill rotation required for tanks to keep threat. it does sound cool though
For the distracted Debuff or Skittish. It would recommend it also have PvP applications.
EX:
Distract: If used on a Player. If attacking any other play then the Tank 15% reduced dmg.
Skittish: If attacked. Dmg is reduced going to you by 15%
But overall I would rather Skittish and Distract not be a move but a status effect that is part of a move.
Example:
Add Distract to Tremoring Below
Ad Skittish to a DPS or Healer Escape or shield/dmg prevention ability.
With this, the move is already used for PvP but also with its threat mechanic is PvE useful as well.
Ooh. Very interesting. I 2nd.
1. Tank does less damage than DPS, but generates more Aggro per damage done.
2. Back attacks do more damage.
3. When DPS attacks the back, and tank the front, aggro is slightly in the tanks favor, if he does not stand there and "turtles" with his block, like you suggest.
4. If mob turns around and chases the dps, now the tank can do back damage, regaining aggro in a reasonable time.
There you go. A fully functioning tank mechanic without any complicated doodads which at the same time completely negates your worries about active block. You're welcome.
i remember that sound effect, its from fireforce :D 0:44
I would like to see a knock-back effect from strong opponents to where you are knocked back up to 3 tiers of distance levels depending on the strength of the opponent. Medium to large shields can automatically negate 1 tier with active blocking. Tanks can have two talents to negate two more tiers, and offtank classes can have an optional 1 talent to negate a possible 2 tiers. This would allow tanks to stand their ground keeping agro, as well as give more of a reason for active blocking. I would also make one of the pure tank talents that negate 1 tier of knock-back passive, so that if a tank does not make an active block he still only gets pushed back a max of 2 tiers vs. 3. Active blocking correctly keeps them in place. Also, block sounds when blocking make it really feel immersive. To fix holding down block just make it drain whatever energy system the tank class uses. Timed blocks can give benefits as well for more skillful play.
You killed it Narc!! I really liked that you gave great advice on making the tank and the animations better you hit all my concerns on the head. My role has been main tank in Mmos for years I’m just glad you identified all the same issues I had. Great job!
I was a main raid healer in early wow (first 3 explosions) and loved the way I had to work directly with the tank to succeed. They would us CD so I can rest and when next big hit, I’d pour on the heals…
Good times.
One of your best videos, mate :) I have told you before that your "suggestion" or brainstorming videos is where you really shine. 😉
I am a firm believer that threat has never been a good mechanic to interact with. It's hidden by default (in other games you needed a threat management add-on) and it also ruins the fun for the dps because they need to track a hidden resource. The tank update was a massive L in philosophy and doesn't push the genre forward in any way. Very unfortunate
Some good Ideas. Love the reference to BDO animations - could learn a thing or two there. Also in Warhammer Online the active ability - 'Hold the Line' could be something they go with, requires stamina, and only last for so long, can move about and if many of you are in pvp, you can create a legit shield wall, that benefit guilds who use it properly for formation tactics. Also dps have a detaunt anility that can get them out of agrro pretty good too.
I think about taunt being a debuff that will make the target receive x times more threat from caster for x seconds, but the issue is taunt cooldown and the way that it will work with multiple tanks/targets.
Bosses can have an "Irritated" state, when the threat they receive will be equal to the damage received, so the tank must use the taunt.
Or make the taunt available only in the case when the boss' main target had used defensive ability.
What if active block was on a CD? You can block one hit no questions asked but the block goes on CD for x seconds. Or if reduces damage and attack speed of those who's blocked but produces threat toward the tank for that individual mob
It's not really an active block then, its just another action bound to right click (or whatever you have block bound to)
Producing threat, if it doesnt already, might work but it might be abusable without a CD
It should be a triggered ability with a cooldown...not some hybrid action ability that a player can just hold. It's absolutely stupid the way it is now.
@@wiliestrogue2924 Its not like they can hold it forever - in the showcase health still goes down, but for a fraction of what an unblocked hit would do. It should probably take from stamina (which they don't have yet) before taking from health. It could even take larger and larger chunks from stamina then health so additional blocked attacks are essentially penalize the player. I.e. take 5% sta, then 8%, 11%, etc mimicking how more time spent blocking would tire someone out faster
@@vinapocalypse Doesn't matter how long it is...Active Block for tanks is just plain stupid.
There are MANY MMO main tank players that will just give up on the class or the game altogether because of this step down the "Action Combat" road that nobody that really plays MMO's wants.
Sorry to sound like a broken record always bringing up DAoC, but it's the MMO I had the most experience with. My main was a S/S Tank and a lot of what was mentioned about taunting and controlling the flow of battle was my life! And it is exactly what is fun about tanking. You'll never do much damage, my paladin abilities helped, but not much, but you still felt like a needed member of the team. I had an active taunt ability that I used to range pull mobs and draw agro off if they switched to dps or healers. It really is a necessary function.
I really loved your taunt idea. This is gonna be a great year of Narc videos 🙏🏼
I %100 agree with the taunting rotation that you pitched, it allows for gameplay to be more interactive and makes players think a little more!
Taking a look at BDO for the one handed animations is also perfect.
One thing that bothers me a little bit about MMOs is that when they swing they seem to forget about their shield. A shield is used to protect themselves at all times in an engagement, it would make more sense for the shield to be in front of the player similar to how shields are used in real life.
*They never showed if players standing behind the Tank's Aegis can use Active Block to reduce damage done to the tank.*
*I like having a Provoke or Taunt as a Tank, but I also like Threat re-directs, using predictable DPS or Healers threat for yourself. Both should exist as Tank tools imo. Active block doesn't bother me, because additional threat isn't going out while using it. I'd also like to see the Courage stacks on top of the Grit icon, so you don't have to look in the upper left.*
I agree about the active blocking in some extend. I love the idea of having active blocking because that made the shield you equip extist instead of being just an item that give you some stats , I also like the idea steven mentioned about adding a parry system that reward the player for blocking in the perfect time, but is true that you can't make people just holding active blocking, It need cooldown, stamina or something that prevent you of spam active blocking. I have to said about the argument you give about holding a key is not playing is wrong you are just miminizing it, is the same if I say that you are also not playing when attacking because you are just pressing buttoms its not that different pressing more than one key than holding it
One of the most instructive videos you've done in a while.
When u mention the mage wearing heavy and caring a shield and mace made got me so pumped not to mention your absolutely right role isn’t as important right now as the actual mechanics of the abilities
An ice mage tank…
Never thought how “cool” that sounds
excellent video narc =D you made some important points
I like it when u can take hate off tank it telling me im putting out damage
I think a fun way to solve this problem would be an ability that pushes the dps monkey whose only paying attention to their buttons right out of the way of the boss
Can't wait to play this game, I have run out of games again 🤣
Just wanted to say narc, i recently started play DDO and its soooo much fun!! Thanks for the suggestion ❤️
Love me some good copium.
As a pvp tank main, shit like this gives me a reason to live on.
Regarding Taunts, what i'm really hoping the'll do is have an augment that adds taunt to a skill, or a rankup of certain skills that add a taunt, instead of a skill that taunts. This opens up a lot more build potential. In addition, this will greatly enhance the way you can build the character / role combinations. (Eg Tank as secondary archtype has this as an augment for skills, so you can be a mage/tank that has a taunting or increased aggro skill(s) to do niche tanking, or (PvX) allow for a build that can deliberatly overaggro tanks so that you can do some weird pvp engagements on worldbosses...
You're completely right about this. Animations for directions, I brought this up in the AoC forum, I also gave the example of BDO, it is so smooth and feels satisfying to play, I loved that I could control my positioning while also striking and it adds depth and a more skill based gameplay. I think any game needs to expand off this, it stops your character looking constipated while you're moving ( I'm looking at you FFXIV. )
Regarding your animation suggestion, each animation also needs points in wich it can transition to a different animation, if for example you are crowdcontrolled or use an off global cooldown ability. In addition, different races, and different weapons will require different animations, and transition points.
So a "forward swing" With only one transition point could end up being 18 animations already. And slower weapons would need more transition points.
To be honest, I think it would make more sense to replace active blocking with a defensive Skill, that has a lasting effect and a cooldown attached to it.
With active blocking you end up either with what Narc already described (holding down one button for 80% of the time) or just as bad: You non stop tab the button for the "timed block" effect (like what noobs do in Sekiro).
I'm also not sure what to think about the condition system of AoC currently. I know Narc praised it, but I suspect this game will become a HUD stare game: You can't focus on the fight before you, but instead you non stop stare at your skill- and buff bar and spam skills, that get off CD instantly while having to do reactionary stuff, if certain debuffs get applied on you. I hate this. It's one of the things I hate about GW2 combat and why I think their combat system got worse over the years.
Question for you Narc: I know you like GW2 a lot, I do too. Do you like the more recent combat of GW2 more or do you miss the more simplistic, a bit slower paced combat of the good old vanilla GW2 more?
I personally figured, that I enjoy less skills, with more situational use and higher impact more, than having a lot of skills with watered down effects. I don't like stale rotations, that are best in 95% of all combat situations. I like it more, if I have to be good at analysing the situation and using my skills accordingly.
I'd rather have a game with a simplistic combat system (tab target with like 8 active skills for example). But then get the enemy AI and encounter compositions so well done, that you can't just play every fight the same. But you'd have to observe and adapt quickly. I have to admit, I am a PvP enjoyer and I get bored quickly by PvE, if I notice, I can do the very same thing over and over to win. PvP is exciting, because it's kind of unpredictable. Getting this form of excitement into the PvE would be the absolute peak of design skill.
i noticed there was no taunt in the reveal. was just hoping that A, they hadnt worked it in yet, or B, he hadnt gotten it yet due to level, i think they were 13-15 lvl. curious to see what it would look like if they didnt add in a taunt. Ill just take another hit of copium and wait for the next update ig.
On the subject of taunting, you could have certain skills that generate hate, obviously, but I'll list some of my own ideas on the matter.
1. A charged attack that does more damage the more it charges but is easily interuptable, imagine the threat level rising as it charges and the mob who lost aggro looks over the shoulder like oh Sh**!
2. Backstab, you wouldn't wanna keep your back to someone who can shank you!
3. Some kind of attack skill that interrupts the enemy who's not focused on you, frustrating them to no end.
4. If you for some reason are a magic based tank, you could have some kind of switcheroo spell that can change places with the aggroed team m8 if you currently aren't attacked.
5. Just being a healer can draw aggro in games, you can use that to tank as well, if you arn't too squishy.
6. You could have some kind of grapple skill that holds the enemy for a bit while you and it pummel each other.
There can certainly be other ways but this is what comes readilly to mind from my sleep deprived brain.
I used to play Anarchy Online, funny story, going to one of the high end areas with my tank, I was fighting a normal mob with just auto attack, no skills, it got me down to half health and I was like help me brother, I'm dying! but when I had killed it, I still had more hp left than my max lvl bro had fully healed. Moral of the story, I was so complacent that I could handle most things I was used to that I forgot to use abilities...
Add a resolve bar if you wear a shield, you can only block if you have resolve, if you tank blows your resolve bar goes down.
As for the threat mechanic, I would appreciate if support classes like Bard or whatever could make DPS'ers lose threat. Threat can be so important, but can also become so mundane if tanking hits as non-tanks is easy... I agree with you that group play needs to be very hard; if you pull threat you need to die in about two hits. If you pull threat the tank shouldn't just be able to taunt the mob off you. It should require more resources (not just an instant cast every 10sec).
Would be so interesting to play an MMO where threat is one of the most important mechanics and playing most efficiently requires the whole group to work together.
I can see someone has said this below already:
What do you think of the concept of active blocking actively draining your "threat"?
So while holding down the click, your threat will slowly drain.
You could then have a successful block drain more threat.
This then means that it doesn't affect the choice of using it in PVP, which is fine because players can be smarter than PVE mobs and generally know not to attack the tank anyway.
9:22 "Tank's kit to control the situation comfortably" yeah, maybe one skill which rebuild tank position is not best? so hard situation and random wipeout are possible?
I think we need to remember this is only level 15 gameplay who knows what potential skills are soon to be available before we try to add entire gameplay mechanics
Diminishing returns on Active Block makes a lot of sense.
I'd be interested to see if passive threat generation can be gained through the class passive system, or if that's what they intend.
If you can combine classes like they propose, any class could tank this way.
A mage/tank hybrid generating threat through class perks, for example.
Its already only 50% mitigation thats going to be governed by a stamina meter potentially. It doesnt need diminishing returns when u consider all that plus maintaining threat while the dps is still doing damage while ur sitting there trying to tank a big pull. So maintaining threat mixing in attacks and using shield when absolutely neccesary seems really fun and interesting tank gameplay. It doesnt need diminishing returns.
I like your ideas regarding taunts and whatnot.
I am a sucker for animation. I watch hour long reload animation videos. I understand gameplay is feedback is far more important right now but this is what draws my eye the most. I posted my feedback on the fourms already. Really, I'm only commenting to please Al-Gore.
17:21
so when is the game releasing?
Instead of active block you should be able to add talent points into passive shield ability. Higher level gives you a better full block chance, and a low stagger chance, with higher damage mitigation per level. Again, tanks need to be able to spend points on being more tanky while sacrificing damage dealing ability. It's a TANK There aren't supposed to be 30% tanks in the game. It is a class that fits with certain personalities.
This! Having tanks that can deal damage AND have huge hitpoint pools and armor is ridiculous...especially when you figure in PvP. Tanks should be balanced for PvP first...then PvE. Otherwise they just become completely unbalanced.
I feel taunt can be like you said in video, a combo need a set up debuff and a trigger debuff so if tank complete a whole combo(shield assault+tremoring bellow) it’s taunt, and tank did the set up debuff or the trigger debuff it’s a taunt too.
I feel active block can synergies with some skills like Shield Assault and Aegis.
Shield Assault become chargeable skill when holding active block and Shield Assault at same time to makes Shield Assault able to travel further and do more threat etc but cost more mp/endurance.
Aegis’s range become larger etc while holding active block and further cost mp/endurance per second player are holding active block.
On top of that can further design the risk if player didn’t pay attention on how much mp/endurance he left to use active block but still use active block will make him has no strength to block and stunned by monster, and maybe you lose threat every time you taking damage when holding active block.
The hammer weapon attack animations are better but it’s not good as 2H sword and dagger just like you said in video.
Excellent feedback, the taunt system that you propose is quite interesting. Intrepid has to find new ways of making classic tanking fun, so more people enjoy playing the roll and the same time change some people's mindset, such as the balding streamer, that thinks threat management is boring and shouldn't exist.
I’m actually growing more concerned with their ability to create complex and compelling combat as the months go on. I KNOW they aren’t showing the augments and the characters were level 17 or so but thus far, the combat displayed in any showcase has looked very stiff, shallow, simplistic, and boring. I dislike the idea of active block but will wait to see how it feels when playing. I’m reserving hope that the full kit, fully augmented, and with full groups ads substantial skill cap.
You need to bear in mind that these showcases are pre Alpha, there is a long road ahead towards polishing everything, they are just showing the progress and asking for feedback to make sure they are moving on the right direction. The alpha 2 phase is going to last a long period, in order to collect feedback and improve everything that needs to be improved, theeeen the game will go the beta test and have the last finishing touchs before the game is fully released.
@@Danlivions Yeah, I’m incredibly aware of this and very much so hoping this means the combat should look as terrible as it does now. My main concern is more so the direction they are going in now (I.e. the incredibly limited combat they have shown) doesn’t look like it is moving in a direction I would find compelling and rather seems stiff, simplistic, and boring. So I’m trying to keep both in mind of giving constructive feedback like they ask and say, no, move away from an overly old school combat approach.
I only like PvP and I think your idea on how to taunt makes me want to pve in this game as well.. really well thought out Mr Narc
I'm quite curious about the Guardian now, increased threat, adding further damage reduction to abilities. More CC. If they do make taunts and threat impactful in PVP that could make the Guardian much better than I might of imagined, at least in the larger group PVP settings and maybe even arenas. He's probably gonna be heavy footed though and not so mobile, that's the only thing.
Taunt will be very important simply because there could be multiple groups battling over the same boss.
I agree with the animations needing to flow. I also think the fighters ability animations need reworking badly. The spin to win looks goofy, and the sword welding fighter ability making a giant magical hammer appear is out of place. He's a fighter not a mage. Where does this magic weaponing summoning fit into a fighter? Maybe it works with one of the 64 combinations in the future but for the melee focused class it's just not right.
My first set of thoughts is on the aegis ability... #1 tanks shouldn't be statted or geared to do damage, that's not their job, so the damage reduction bit is useless. #2 in a good group there should be very limited amounts of time where group members are standing behind the tank. The tank should turn enemies away from the group so as to reduce incoming damage on the dps. So the ability protecting only those behind the tank is semi useless if the group knows what they are doing. #3 if these areas are meant for 8 man groups 50% of damage from all those sources is just too much. This ability has great potential but needs a rework,
Second set of thoughts are one the taunt. #1 I believe there should be a single target hard taunt that can instantly max your threat number on that target for a limited time. After that time is up you have to maintain your threat until that single target ability comes off cool down. That way you can start a fight with your entire group and not instantly lose agro to the dps. #2 I think a good way to maintain agro/threat during the fight would to give the tank an AOE ability that takes the threat generated by the dps and applies it to the tank for a specific time. Or you could create a debuff status affect that reduces the amount of threat generated by damage. Which would give the tanks threat generation abilities great sway. This would allow the tank to manage their threat level as needed without breaking what the enemies are already doing. It would also increase the need for the team to be a cohesive unit dps know to hold their hardest hitting abilities for when the tank negates their threat. Then boom we get a great synergy. I also think that aoe threat generator is important so that the tank isn't forced into chasing every individual monster around in order to build any threat. That is tedious and not fun.
Active block. I think active blocking is 100% needed, but only for specific things. I think blocking large attacks should help generate your courage or whatever they called it. I would love to see a parry system where blocking one of those large attacks gives you something. I agree that standing and holding block is bad, and a good tank shouldn't be doing that. However instead of diminishing returns on the block I think standing holding block for over a certain amount of time should cause your threat to drop in large steps the longer you hold it. It makes more sense to me that if you play turtle the enemies won't be threatened by you.
Lastly it's kind if a nitpick but I don't think you should have the class/archetype named tank, if others are able to fill that role. Are we going to have a dps archetype and a healer archetype?
Thx for the copium Narc
Personally happy with the tank being able to hunker down to provide pure defence (with little attack) but agree it needs to have its limits (whether that be based on stamina or similar limits) or timer.
I see nothing wrong with a tank being primarily defence but it needs to be combined with the rotation and involve timing (timing is everything imo)
I havent seen anyone mention anything about how the skills bar looks like its been reduced to 7 skills.
Imo blocking should cost stamina (or another block resource), and while you hold it, not recharge any stamina.
You should also not be able to cast any offensive abilities while blocking.
Tank Pull: Applies Snare.
Tank Stomp: Applies Trip on Snare.
Me and my 5 Tank Friends in Group: Happy.
Our Enemies that we pass around and ground, to just pass around and ground: Let me know when I can play again, mm'kay?
Am I going crazy or do I hear the witcher 3 music in the background?
While I agree taunt is a key ability for a tank in PVE, it didn't work in PVE. Therefore tanks were bit useless in PvP. But if you increase the shielding role of a tank, it works both in PVE & PVP, because give enemies a reason to attach the tank to get rid of the shields, therefore getting though to hit the DPS.
great video!
i wish i could get high on copium but i'm almost immune to psychotropic substances. as for the animations you're right. for me they were the biggest draw to BDO when i started playing it. gameplay and mechanics are something you have to play the game in order to see, understand and judge, they can't be an impactful marketing material no matter how good they are. graphics and animation is what the potential players can see and understand at a glance. eye candy is for getting people through the door, gameplay is for keeping them in, it very rarely works the other way around.
I think it does look good. I like those skills and as a core they are solid. We'll see what develops, but so far I think it's great.
Fortnight also uses UE5. So great suggestion! Missing taunt is a good thing PVP wise, But PVE, you nailed the issue. They need aTaunt that only works in (PVE) PARTY. All problems solved. Your suggestion would be ideal.
I normally play a tank in MMO's, but I think I'm going to give it a rest in AoC. I do like some of the innovations though.
Let your lil inner healer be born!
@@richardgray9284 Nah I'm going Rogue this time.
I mean, if they want a great tank which is kind of easy to implement they could just copy the lancer from tera classic...
Tank looks well like tank, nothing ground breaking nor shocking was shown kind of everything you'd expect from every generic fantasy game, heavy armor with shield taunting enemies... hope it will get more diverse with all those class combinations, but if it ends up this well it is what it is. I my self main tank in every game where it is possible and was interested in mage/tank combo in AoC with hopes that combo will be a bit more then paladin like class using arcane magic instead of holy magic
Holy crap! I totally agree with everything you said about the problems with tanking and modern MMOs versus how it used to be. I used to be a raid main tank in EverQuest and then I was a raid main tank in world of Warcraft back when it was still fresh and new. I tried playing wow recently and I just couldn't stay interested. I'm sure modern raiding is exciting (maybe?), but the majority of tanking that most people are going to do are in groups. Tanking in the recent dungeon finder groups was way too easy. I barely had to worry about anything. "Easy" might be fun for a little bit, but long term it's just boring. Without any adversity what's the point ?
Am i crazy or does he have the Valheim soundtrack in the backgroud?
maybe block should just be like vanilla wow, a stat that has a chance of triggering and completele negating anykind of dmg from an attack aswell as debuffs or anything?
Premium grade copium crystal as always! These takes are on point and I pray that the dev team pass this video around and smoke it all up
Active blocking shouldn't be punished via stamina - it should be rewarded.
I think every time you successfully actively block you should get rage (or whatever ashes equivalent) - that you can spend on damage. However, every second you're actively blocking you're losing dps - so it incentives timing blocks for big hits and going back to damage.
But there's plenty of tank players who don't even bother with damage so that's not really an incentive.
Better to freeze cooldowns while active blocking while not being hit. Or something similar like not recharge stamina.
I love the development of the tank ... Where are the Bounty Hunters? Best regards, Skaff.
I was about to criticize you thinking that you were only comparing with world of warcraft until you got to black desert and you said what typical word of warcraft player doesn't understand 10/10
please send this video to ashe of creation you explained it perfectly and what i have been saying for a long time A GAME OF 2023 cannot be worse than black desert in physics with UNREAL 5 PLEASE!!
I agree that the animations need some major reworking. They seem far too stiff or even give off the wrong impression. The spell and attack effects are even worse though. I can't even tell who's who or what weapons are being used through the constant large flashes covering everything us. A simple solution might be to shrink all the effects down by 80-90% and add some transparency. It doesn't feel good to do some big flashy move if you can't even see you character when they do it.
Threat is useless in PVP. I want to know how tanking works in pvp, since this is supposed to be a pvp-centric game. Hopefully they will lean on how SWTOR handles tanks, as that is by far the best pvp-tanking I have ever seen.
please send this video to ashe of creation you explained it perfectly and what i have been saying for a long time A GAME OF 2023 cannot be worse than black desert in physics with UNREAL 5 PLEASE!!
Absolutely they should work on motion combat and bdo was a perfect example
Still think a stamina system would be good specifically for dodging and active blocking. Simple 0 to 100. Stamina would drain slowly when active blocking but takes additional hits the more it actively mitigates damage. Potions, food, tank passives, and some specific augmented Bard & Cleric skills can play a role in stamina regen/restoration, but tanks will still need to manage threat/dps so guarding all day won't be great. Wanna believe every tank-affiliated class has their active block changed in a unique way representative to the class too but that can happen AFTER we find a good direction.
I agree with narcs ideas. Both on taunt and blocking.
Making aggro management should be a more involved mechanic. NOT to the degree that a tank can't hold aggro on the same focus target but potentially on offtargets.
So making taunt a player combo is a good idea. The DPS has an ability that makes a mob skittish. This ability should be under gcd but basically have no or a very low cooldown. The DPS's ability should NOT require to target the mob because that can be a total shitshow when a lot of characters are on screen. BUT íf the dps actively targets the mob the range of the ability should increase to the normal attack range of the rest of abilites so that more skilled groups have ability to apply taunt before the mob is half across the room. The debuf of skittish should also not last longer than 10 seconds.
The tanks abilities to distract SHOULD require to target the mob.
I could even so that these 2 debuffs combined would even work in pvp. If a player is taunted the target is being switched to the tank and the taunted players hit chance is reduced by like 66%. A player can only be taunted every 2 minutes or so and the taunt debuff lasts for 5-10 seconds. The hit rate reduction applies to all targets other than the tank and a tank player can never apply the skittish debuff on another player therefore not benefit from a taunt themselves.
This definitely was because the argument we had on the last video tap targeting = death to this game and I will continue to say it on every video..
I've been preaching the same thing months ago. Active blocking is going to create a meta where they'll be the Main tank on the boss, just holding down a button to actively block. Off tank will be used for a tab target player running around collecting adds. 50% damage reduction across the board is another issue, There's many different types of damages and if you give active blocking 50% less overall damage, the build diversity is thrown out the window. I agree with a resource burner and diminishing returns, but We would have to see them in game. Because tanks can be ANY Class combination with certain gear, I think they should have a UI screen for Active block where it lets you CHOOSE which benefits you want while you active block. You're a rogue that's being a dodge tank? Check mark 10% more dodge chance and 10% less damage taken. Want to be a Sponge tank? Checkmark the 10% more stam and 10% damage return. We we're promised countless builds and giving a 50% flat mitigation isn't the answer the these "builds" or for active blocking. They have to come up with a way to add diversity for builds with active blocking. Last ramble. We haven't seen PvP yet, but they should really give classes two builds, PvP and PvE - your class kit, talents, skills, stats, etc. should act differently depending on the activity that's happening.
Easiest way is just to can the Active Block idea. Anything else just makes Tank combat convoluted and unfun...or broken in PvP.
I HATE the idea of abilities working differently in PvP vs. PvE. It makes no sense from any perspective...other than to synthetically balance game play.
Simple cure... a successful active block generates grit...grit has stacks and is a resource. Skills that use grit generate more threat/distracted/taunt...
I find it pretty hard to understand whats going on mechanically in the game currently. I think steven said there are nameplates he just prefers to play with them off?
Not sure I agree with you on TBC tanking. If you walked straight into a pack as a non-tank then sure you would die pretty quick but if the tank didn't have aggro on one or two mobs then it usually wasn't such a big deal, particularly for the plate wearing classes. If its going to be hard for the tank to have threat I would like that its Preferable that the tank have aggro (on non-boss enemies) but not mandatory. Plus this helps gives a reason for plate wearing dps to be wearing plate. Why not if you aren't going to use it now and then?
I'm team active blocking :D Do agree though that the gameplay can't become just purely blocking. Whether its tank busters or just a general damage reduction it should be something you sometimes use, not always. Sure holding block isn't crazy gameplay but hitting a button every gcd isn't always the most exciting thing either. My brain is tired of always be pressing a button to maximize dps instead of thinking through my actions
Keep it up man.
i would like to see the idle stance of the 2h be more realistic.... they look really bad just standing there with the sword held up to their chest.... it doesnt look like the weapon has any weight see gw2 idle stance
Pretty sure they're not stressed about how good the idle animation looks right now in alpha stage. 👌
Look up Tera Lancer gameplay and just watch they do on the bosses.
You mentioned having not played it and that its shut down so it doesn't matter, But the game had excellent tank design worth looking at. You'll notice immediately that while the Lancer *could* simply hold block, they do not. They are incredibly aggressive and use properly timed active blocks to achieve "Perfect Defense" triggers.
The way threat works in a world where DPS can actually take it from you, Simply holding block will kill your team. Its a defensive tool to be used at the right time. Much like a Dodge roll, and why i likened it to dodging.
The advantage for a Tank to Block an attack instead of physically moving to avoid it is mob control. You want to keep the mob where it is but also need to neutralize an attack. Blocking it holds the enemy in place where a dodge would disrupt its position to follow you.
Also, Valkyries and Warriors in BDO had Active Blocking too :P
FFXIV is a terrible example for defensive abilities in an MMO. Boss encounters are made on extremely scripted timers and the cooldowns for DR abilities are matched to those timers.
Its never a choice to use a defensive. There's nothing to "Save" it for. The boss is doing a thing that demands you use one of your cooldowns to survive it.
As long as you don't activate it *outside* of the explicit "use cooldown now" window, you will always have at least 1 cooldown ready to be used for that tank buster.
Thats boring as hell. Tanks in XIV are nothing more than Blue DPS these days.
Good enemy and boss design is what makes or breaks active blocking.
If you're truly worried about tanks just holding down Block, you can always have all your threat on every mob engaged with you decay by 1% per second you hold the block up.
You'd only be able to hold it for a few seconds before some DPS or a Healer rips hate right off you.
Snap Blocking is the purpose of active blocks. Not turtling. Which fits in with you wanting it to be a timed parry mechanic.
Amazing video Narc, you are really on point with your autistic knowledge! Really hope they incorperate the basic attack style of BDO, that would be awesome. I am so unsure about the active blocking, feels like it doesn't fit the combat system at all. I would rather it just be a regular cooldown ability that has a fixed duration. I did like your suggestion for Threat, maybe the boomers would be upset though. Anyway, gj dude, keep up the good work
We will see, in two or more years...
Pure tanks should have several taunts available, on cooldown. Single target, multiple target, and an aoe taunt. More in your kit to do easier what you are meant to do. Offtanks should have a more limited list, representing the fact they are not pure tanks, but dip into some things a pure tank class can. This helps represent the choices players make for their base and archetypes.
Yeah, what Narc said.
Honestly I dont think I could ever play a tank thats just a big guy with big armor with a big sword who facetanks everything. Active blocking makes tanking better on lots of different ways.
How do I know this? I've played Tera online.
Funny how they started with graphics and everything which is normally “last in cycle” development wise and now the mechanics come into play: won’t work.
Cant build threat when blocking. Over blocking will lead to wiping due to losing aggro.
The game has just become niche! Grtz
When do we get to buy the damn copa-cola drink bro!
Come on my dude... I don`t remember since when but basically Tanks for a while now had "Agro Generation". Meaning: They still build and are inherently tankier than DPSes..., the price for which is less DPS, because otherwise no one would build actual fragile DPS... But ... Their skill have this "fake" dmg ... or "Agro Generation" basically their abilities hit for a lot less dmg (less DPH, less DPH) but they have this artificially increased, felt by the mob, super high DMG (that does not actually reduces the boss`s HP) but it makes the mob itself feel as if the tank >is< the >top dog< dps and thus keeps it`s interest on him/her rather than it`s actual killer the DPS with his or her`s >real< dmg... It goes in numerical totally made up, by me, value something like this... DPS hits for 500 + 500 + 500 actual legit dmg by a skill or whatever... post and pre all the penetrations/resistances permutations... Tank Hits another ability at the same time that hits for 300 (real dmg) + 400 (fake dmg) (700 total, perceived by the mob dmg) + 300 (real dmg) + 400 (fake dmg) (700 total, perceived by the mob dmg) + 300 (real dmg) + 400 (fake dmg) (700 total, perceived by the mob dmg)... The DPS hits the mob for 1500 real dmg that time and he or she is on the top of the DPS meter player wise, as expected, the tank hits for 900 Real dmg and 1200 fake dmg for a total of 2.1k perceived by the mob dmg so it keeps attacking him instead of the DPS... it`s the same way for the purpose of gameplay Healer`s heal are seen by the mob as DMG targeted as him as well... because after the relevant calculations... it sort of is... and the trick is for that number to still not got higher than what the tank is doing... Of course Agro do tend to ~ toggle around so in the end of the day have your Fingers on the I Frames ... in regardless... of course if it is not 7 skill locked combat game ~or something... ~ *rolling eyes*.
imagine being the first comment on narcs best video
I can, once he actually makes it
My concern - that you jokingly touched upon - is that all the tank abilities are Action Combat.
There's no tab abilities or soft tracking. So more and more it's moving full action combat rather than hybrid.
I'll pay Action Combat, but they need to stop calling it hybrid combat when it's clearly not what it is.
I don't know, I prefer the oldering method of taunting. Especially considering that Tanks do little DPS it'll be difficult to build up threat. Over complicating the taunt systems will only lead to what was shown in this very video, a Tank that simply cannot keep agro
I think that managing your aggro should be a part of gameplay as a DPS too. Trying to do as much dps as possible at all times is not good game design, it's too basic.
We need mechanics like where at times you need to move behind the tank to shift aggro off themselfs. Or we end up with the same old crap where Tanks carry the entire raid and DPS drool.