I made a magic user that was going to use mostly spells that did not require material components. I figured that if most of their spells didn't need components that they would be better off when out adventuring. I basically gave up the idea since most spells require material components and the ones that didn't wouldn't be the best spells to have. Crafty players can use an Illusionist to great effect. It does take some effort and imagination to play one well. I also believe that clerics 1st-3rd level spells are ceremonial and do not require deity "power" to cast but higher level spells are given directly from the deity. So if they fall out of favor they can't cast higher level spells.
Regarding the Clerical spells, you are correct. That's exactly how to play it, Clerics and Magic-users are different in small ways, but they count. Thanks for commenting and subscribing I appreciate it. Life is interfering with my delivery of content at the moment, a little more AD&D will be coming soon.
Hey David! I've been meaning to ask you this, but had forgotten of course, but do you run Magic Item ID-ing RAW, or do you alter that really difficult and not-very-playable rule on Identifying them? I've decided that maybe Identify, Read Magic, Detect Magic, and Write all cost CON points as Identify states, but it's one point for each of those, except Identify, which costs 4 at casting instead of 8. Each are then standard fair for all M-U's, that they can default to with an open "slot", if you will, when needed. That seems like how we played back in the day, but also feels a little like 5e,which I do not want to do anymore. Do you have alternatives that feel more like 1st edition? Thnx! 👊
Hey there, this was one of those instances when we all had to house rule. The wording of the spell was weird and always the question: Why would use that spell slot for it? Yes, I made a few house rules that had evolved over the decade or so. First up, Early on in my DM-ing, I always made sure if there was a Magic-user around there were scrolls of Read Magic, Detect Magic, and Identify around (I see the irony that to use a Read Magic scroll, one had to cast the spell Read Magic in order to make the scroll Read Magic ready for use), the spell has a duration of 2 rounds per level of caster/scroll batch processing is in order. My rationale for that came about when I realised the first scrolls a Magic-user would make would be the utility spells that aren't worth the daily slots (Comprehend Languages, Read Magic, Detect magic, and Identify are examples of such spells). Second, I didn't make the M-U have to wear the armour, ring, or that weird Magic Item possibly a Scarab of Death. I allowed the M-U to be able to read into the magic aura to discern the dweomer (in other words, all items on the table and a single spell to identify the items). It was the items that didn't need command words where Identify couldn't help anyway. The PCs find a Wand. It's magic with a wild blend of Alteration, Enchantment, and Evocation (it's a Wand of Magic Missiles), Identify could say it's a Wand of Magic Missiles roughly half full. Now they need the magic phrase. Is it on the Wand? (Comprehend Languages), is it on a scrap of parchment in the drawer of the previous owner (where do you keep your passwords?), or is it lost to the ages and only a small fortune of money can reveal it. Third, between adventures, I gave them the option to sacrifice buckets of gold to identify the items. The spell Identify (as it's written) is really a deterrent for the in-adventure identification of items. As I always say: If it works for you and your group and everyone's having fun, then you're doing it the right way. Thanks for the comment. I appreciate any questions you might have, I did run a tight rules as written style, but there are always some required amendments along the way.
@@TheEldarGuy Awesome...and thnx so much for staying in touch and loving 1st edition.... really hard to find any of us RAW-attempers out there much anymore it seems. Good to know ya, bro 👊
Hey Menion, Nope no exaggeration. 1st Edition AD&D had no cap on damage. 2nd edition limited these types of spells to a 10th Level max. Meaning: The 18th Level Arch-mage/Lich Magic-user casts 18d6 Fireballs, and 10 Magic Missiles per spell. At these higher levels, the PCs will almost always make their Saving Throws: which makes an 18d6 Fireball an average of 63 damage unsaved (31 damage or so saved). It's the Magic Missile like spells that have no save and inflict 30 to 35 damage on average. Thanks for your support. I appreciate it.
How did/do you deal with Material Components and Spellbooks? Did you role play the tedious minutia of the caster chasing down those more common components, or did the caster have to declare, "I collect some of the spiderweb. How many castings am I able to do?"; or did you only role play the collection of "expensive" components (those with an actual gp value listed) and apply a 1 gp/level cost to cast each spell cast (to represent the overall cost of tracking down and haggling with the apothecaries, herbalists, jewelers, artisans, and the like) that might be required to source and replace that used? Then rises the question: how are components are stored? What happens when they get wet? etc. Do they always burn off (are expended) with each spell, or is the little hammer for Spiritual Hammer always available regardless how many times the cleric casts it? Also: spellbooks. They are huge! How could a mage dungeon delve, or spend days, weeks, or months in the swamps or underdark, and still rememorize spells? Even travel books are huge, and could not possibly hold all the necessary spells. It seems a bit convenient for the party to stumble across a a bag of holding for each mage.
Bags of holding are always useful. I used components; add with a touch of leniency, I sort of figured how many uses before being useless. Since AD&D is a high magic fantasy game, most of the common components were available. That small pouch of fine sand, probably gives out a dozen or so uses of Sleep spell. Not all components were expended in spells, if the spell said yes they materials were used, so be it. My default position is that most of the materials weren't consumed by the spell. Whenever an opponent Magic-user was discovered, they'd always have a spot with their components and other bits. Spell books are trickier, there are basically three types, a Journey book, regular spell book, and a grimoire. The journey book has about 50 pages in it, which is enough for the Magic-user to be able to store the spells needed for the adventure. If the DM is using the Intelligence chart, many Magic-users will be very careful about spell selections (if you have 11 spells per spell level, which do you try to collect?). Spells are like Pokemon cards, you always want to trade to get better ones. Spells are one of those things that a DM has to have figured out from the start. It's easy to allow Magic-users to become too powerful or throw balance out. Sleep is a powerful 1st level spell, it needs something to balance it. Magic Missile, on the other hand, becomes more powerful as the Magic-user gains levels. There's a fine balancing act going on. Just like if the DM dishes out max HP for Fighters every level, they become too powerful and unmanageable. It was probably about 2 years of being a DM before I really figured out what I could have been doing better, of course my players didn't really notice. Managing these things can be tricky, which is part of the fun of it. You don't want too much account keeping, but enough to let the PCs know that spells are a valuable resource; when the Magic-user reaches for the pouch of fine sand, only to find it empty, because they forgot to stock up!
Hi David - really useful series of videos. Can you point me towards where in the books is the mention I have seen you refer to a couple of times on your site about Magic Users starting with 2 to 5 scrolls? I can't find this anywhere.
Hello, first of all, thanks for watching. Back when I was first DMing AD&D, I wrote to TSR. Back then, they had a policy to answer all customer letters and questions. Tim Krask said they would each get bags of mail and then answer them. So, in my letter, I had several questions and I received great detail in return. It was recommended that atop the starting spells, a Magic-user should start with 2 to 5 scrolls to assist in being useful. So, I mention it as an option if players and DMs feel that the humble 1st level Magic-user needs an equaliser (of sorts).
First time looking at the channel. 2&1/2 minutes in so far. I certainly hope that after 3 years you have figured out not to freehand your phone around while recording and to turn the lights on. Because so far I am dizzy and can't see anything clearly. Also the background music is distracting from the use of to many dramatic pauses. This is almost painful to watch but hopefully you will have a gem of insight on the subject I'm researching. Surely you were just very new to doing this.
😁 I have my moments, to be sure. I'm certainly not as polished as some out there, and I also don't believe I have to raise my voice to get my point across. My key takeaway from your comment is that you are looking for something; my aim, above all else, is to try and bring a real 'how to' to the topic. If there's something you are after (more specifically) please let me know and I'm happy to expand or clarify. Thanks again for tuning in.
@@TheEldarGuy You are correct sir and I apologize for my not so nice message. It's no excuse but I was a bit frustrated with the internet and it's ability to completely ignore what you are asking it to find. I was and possibly still are looking for others insight into how spell casting can be improved in first edition without turning it into any of the crappy later editions that are even worse than first edition in mechanics. You seem to be mostly happy with the original system and for that I am happy for you. It has annoyed me since the early 80's the way you are so limited in what you have in your memory available for casting. It's never seemed to fit with the epic novels in what a magic user with some levels is capable of holding ready to cast without the aid of a spell book to constantly be studying. I have a new idea that I have not play tested yet and I hope this one might help improve the epic feel without unbalancing the game completely like later editions have done. I'm not talking about increasing the amount you can cast per day simply the amount you can remember. Foolishly tried a point systems that over power the class instantly in the past, same thing with speeding up combat rounds to 6 seconds which I like and works well for weapons combat but you can't modify casting times and duration to match or it's way out of balance too. Again sorry for the snarky comments I apologize. Thank you for being gracious in your response.
@@aubreymorris9183 Firts, you don't have to apologise for anything. I am an amateur and jakers! Does it show! Second, I looked at some options back in the day, and I never liked spell points or bonus spells, or using the Clerical chart for extra spells (using INT of course); I did like the idea of treating MU spell casting the same way as Clerical spells. All the usual spell finding requirements, the Intelligence chart for Magic-users, all of that. Except they didn't have to pick the spell. That gave them more flexibility at least, and let them use the spell Knock when needed without having to sacrifice an off-chance that the party might need Invisibility. That's something worth exploring.
@@TheEldarGuy I kinda like the bonus spells with int. It doesn't really unbalance them as most of the bonuses are at low level. At least you're not a 1 & done at lvl 1 that way. No I'm about to try something really out there. I'm going to use the min/max spells chart under int. When you gain a new spell level you start with the min number of spells in your memory (max of 3 duplicates of the same spell) and add 1 each exp lvl you advance until you reach the max number. This eliminates the need to carry a biga$$ book every where you go basically and gives you the ability to preload a variety of useful spells. Keep the same number of spells castable, the study times, the eat and sleep rules pretty much as written. This way I don't think it will effect the power balance of the game. While not pigeon holing the spell casters into preloading blind with only a few slots to load in. What do you think?
I made a magic user that was going to use mostly spells that did not require material components. I figured that if most of their spells didn't need components that they would be better off when out adventuring.
I basically gave up the idea since most spells require material components and the ones that didn't wouldn't be the best spells to have.
Crafty players can use an Illusionist to great effect. It does take some effort and imagination to play one well.
I also believe that clerics 1st-3rd level spells are ceremonial and do not require deity "power" to cast but higher level spells are given directly from the deity. So if they fall out of favor they can't cast higher level spells.
Regarding the Clerical spells, you are correct. That's exactly how to play it, Clerics and Magic-users are different in small ways, but they count.
Thanks for commenting and subscribing I appreciate it.
Life is interfering with my delivery of content at the moment, a little more AD&D will be coming soon.
Thanks
Hey David! I've been meaning to ask you this, but had forgotten of course, but do you run Magic Item ID-ing RAW, or do you alter that really difficult and not-very-playable rule on Identifying them?
I've decided that maybe Identify, Read Magic, Detect Magic, and Write all cost CON points as Identify states, but it's one point for each of those, except Identify, which costs 4 at casting instead of 8.
Each are then standard fair for all M-U's, that they can default to with an open "slot", if you will, when needed.
That seems like how we played back in the day, but also feels a little like 5e,which I do not want to do anymore. Do you have alternatives that feel more like 1st edition? Thnx! 👊
Hey there, this was one of those instances when we all had to house rule. The wording of the spell was weird and always the question: Why would use that spell slot for it?
Yes, I made a few house rules that had evolved over the decade or so. First up, Early on in my DM-ing, I always made sure if there was a Magic-user around there were scrolls of Read Magic, Detect Magic, and Identify around (I see the irony that to use a Read Magic scroll, one had to cast the spell Read Magic in order to make the scroll Read Magic ready for use), the spell has a duration of 2 rounds per level of caster/scroll batch processing is in order. My rationale for that came about when I realised the first scrolls a Magic-user would make would be the utility spells that aren't worth the daily slots (Comprehend Languages, Read Magic, Detect magic, and Identify are examples of such spells).
Second, I didn't make the M-U have to wear the armour, ring, or that weird Magic Item possibly a Scarab of Death. I allowed the M-U to be able to read into the magic aura to discern the dweomer (in other words, all items on the table and a single spell to identify the items). It was the items that didn't need command words where Identify couldn't help anyway. The PCs find a Wand. It's magic with a wild blend of Alteration, Enchantment, and Evocation (it's a Wand of Magic Missiles), Identify could say it's a Wand of Magic Missiles roughly half full. Now they need the magic phrase. Is it on the Wand? (Comprehend Languages), is it on a scrap of parchment in the drawer of the previous owner (where do you keep your passwords?), or is it lost to the ages and only a small fortune of money can reveal it.
Third, between adventures, I gave them the option to sacrifice buckets of gold to identify the items. The spell Identify (as it's written) is really a deterrent for the in-adventure identification of items.
As I always say: If it works for you and your group and everyone's having fun, then you're doing it the right way.
Thanks for the comment. I appreciate any questions you might have, I did run a tight rules as written style, but there are always some required amendments along the way.
@@TheEldarGuy Awesome...and thnx so much for staying in touch and loving 1st edition.... really hard to find any of us RAW-attempers out there much anymore it seems. Good to know ya, bro 👊
15d6 for a fireball? You exaggerate, sir! Or do you have special house rules? Good stuff as always! Thanks for the effort!
Hope you don't mind - I shared it on Twitter.
Hey Menion,
Nope no exaggeration. 1st Edition AD&D had no cap on damage. 2nd edition limited these types of spells to a 10th Level max.
Meaning: The 18th Level Arch-mage/Lich Magic-user casts 18d6 Fireballs, and 10 Magic Missiles per spell.
At these higher levels, the PCs will almost always make their Saving Throws: which makes an 18d6 Fireball an average of 63 damage unsaved (31 damage or so saved). It's the Magic Missile like spells that have no save and inflict 30 to 35 damage on average.
Thanks for your support. I appreciate it.
OG chain lighting gets interesting when your 13th level mage lets one fly, and there are only 6 enemies and 5 PCs!
How did/do you deal with Material Components and Spellbooks?
Did you role play the tedious minutia of the caster chasing down those more common components, or did the caster have to declare, "I collect some of the spiderweb. How many castings am I able to do?"; or did you only role play the collection of "expensive" components (those with an actual gp value listed) and apply a 1 gp/level cost to cast each spell cast (to represent the overall cost of tracking down and haggling with the apothecaries, herbalists, jewelers, artisans, and the like) that might be required to source and replace that used?
Then rises the question: how are components are stored? What happens when they get wet? etc. Do they always burn off (are expended) with each spell, or is the little hammer for Spiritual Hammer always available regardless how many times the cleric casts it?
Also: spellbooks. They are huge! How could a mage dungeon delve, or spend days, weeks, or months in the swamps or underdark, and still rememorize spells? Even travel books are huge, and could not possibly hold all the necessary spells.
It seems a bit convenient for the party to stumble across a a bag of holding for each mage.
Bags of holding are always useful.
I used components; add with a touch of leniency, I sort of figured how many uses before being useless. Since AD&D is a high magic fantasy game, most of the common components were available. That small pouch of fine sand, probably gives out a dozen or so uses of Sleep spell.
Not all components were expended in spells, if the spell said yes they materials were used, so be it. My default position is that most of the materials weren't consumed by the spell.
Whenever an opponent Magic-user was discovered, they'd always have a spot with their components and other bits.
Spell books are trickier, there are basically three types, a Journey book, regular spell book, and a grimoire.
The journey book has about 50 pages in it, which is enough for the Magic-user to be able to store the spells needed for the adventure.
If the DM is using the Intelligence chart, many Magic-users will be very careful about spell selections (if you have 11 spells per spell level, which do you try to collect?).
Spells are like Pokemon cards, you always want to trade to get better ones.
Spells are one of those things that a DM has to have figured out from the start. It's easy to allow Magic-users to become too powerful or throw balance out. Sleep is a powerful 1st level spell, it needs something to balance it. Magic Missile, on the other hand, becomes more powerful as the Magic-user gains levels. There's a fine balancing act going on.
Just like if the DM dishes out max HP for Fighters every level, they become too powerful and unmanageable.
It was probably about 2 years of being a DM before I really figured out what I could have been doing better, of course my players didn't really notice.
Managing these things can be tricky, which is part of the fun of it. You don't want too much account keeping, but enough to let the PCs know that spells are a valuable resource; when the Magic-user reaches for the pouch of fine sand, only to find it empty, because they forgot to stock up!
Hi David - really useful series of videos. Can you point me towards where in the books is the mention I have seen you refer to a couple of times on your site about Magic Users starting with 2 to 5 scrolls? I can't find this anywhere.
Hello, first of all, thanks for watching.
Back when I was first DMing AD&D, I wrote to TSR. Back then, they had a policy to answer all customer letters and questions.
Tim Krask said they would each get bags of mail and then answer them.
So, in my letter, I had several questions and I received great detail in return. It was recommended that atop the starting spells, a Magic-user should start with 2 to 5 scrolls to assist in being useful.
So, I mention it as an option if players and DMs feel that the humble 1st level Magic-user needs an equaliser (of sorts).
@@TheEldarGuy Well that's good enough for me 😁.
First time looking at the channel. 2&1/2 minutes in so far. I certainly hope that after 3 years you have figured out not to freehand your phone around while recording and to turn the lights on. Because so far I am dizzy and can't see anything clearly. Also the background music is distracting from the use of to many dramatic pauses. This is almost painful to watch but hopefully you will have a gem of insight on the subject I'm researching. Surely you were just very new to doing this.
😁
I have my moments, to be sure. I'm certainly not as polished as some out there, and I also don't believe I have to raise my voice to get my point across.
My key takeaway from your comment is that you are looking for something; my aim, above all else, is to try and bring a real 'how to' to the topic.
If there's something you are after (more specifically) please let me know and I'm happy to expand or clarify.
Thanks again for tuning in.
@@TheEldarGuy You are correct sir and I apologize for my not so nice message. It's no excuse but I was a bit frustrated with the internet and it's ability to completely ignore what you are asking it to find.
I was and possibly still are looking for others insight into how spell casting can be improved in first edition without turning it into any of the crappy later editions that are even worse than first edition in mechanics. You seem to be mostly happy with the original system and for that I am happy for you. It has annoyed me since the early 80's the way you are so limited in what you have in your memory available for casting. It's never seemed to fit with the epic novels in what a magic user with some levels is capable of holding ready to cast without the aid of a spell book to constantly be studying.
I have a new idea that I have not play tested yet and I hope this one might help improve the epic feel without unbalancing the game completely like later editions have done.
I'm not talking about increasing the amount you can cast per day simply the amount you can remember. Foolishly tried a point systems that over power the class instantly in the past, same thing with speeding up combat rounds to 6 seconds which I like and works well for weapons combat but you can't modify casting times and duration to match or it's way out of balance too.
Again sorry for the snarky comments I apologize. Thank you for being gracious in your response.
@@aubreymorris9183 Firts, you don't have to apologise for anything. I am an amateur and jakers! Does it show!
Second, I looked at some options back in the day, and I never liked spell points or bonus spells, or using the Clerical chart for extra spells (using INT of course); I did like the idea of treating MU spell casting the same way as Clerical spells.
All the usual spell finding requirements, the Intelligence chart for Magic-users, all of that. Except they didn't have to pick the spell.
That gave them more flexibility at least, and let them use the spell Knock when needed without having to sacrifice an off-chance that the party might need Invisibility.
That's something worth exploring.
@@TheEldarGuy I kinda like the bonus spells with int. It doesn't really unbalance them as most of the bonuses are at low level. At least you're not a 1 & done at lvl 1 that way.
No I'm about to try something really out there. I'm going to use the min/max spells chart under int. When you gain a new spell level you start with the min number of spells in your memory (max of 3 duplicates of the same spell) and add 1 each exp lvl you advance until you reach the max number.
This eliminates the need to carry a biga$$ book every where you go basically and gives you the ability to preload a variety of useful spells.
Keep the same number of spells castable, the study times, the eat and sleep rules pretty much as written. This way I don't think it will effect the power balance of the game. While not pigeon holing the spell casters into preloading blind with only a few slots to load in.
What do you think?