Inescapable Evidence The Gospels Used Homer To Create Their Narratives - Dr. Dennis R. MacDonald
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ต.ค. 2021
- Edited by @DrKippDavis Subscribe to his channel because he is a friend of MythVision and is discussing overlapping material. Great guy as well with a brilliant mind!
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Inescapable Evidence The Gospels Used Homer To Create Their Narratives - Dr. Dennis R. MacDonald. The gospel authors used the Eurycleia of Ithaca narrative of recognizing her master to tell about a woman anointing Jesus feet with oil.
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#Gospels #DennisMacDonald #MythVision
Mind blown 🤯
Bravo to Dereck for bringing Dr. MacDonald's brilliance to a broader, interested public!
Why do the Christians hate pagans and thus only hire historians who will deny the pagan roots of Christianity? It is because Christians are manipulatively taught to hate pagans which are a greater competition to them then Judaism.
@@letsomethingshine because christianity is supposedly monotheistic. It can't be based on pagan origins. It is based solely on the word of the one true god, supposedly
To me the insistence among the 3 Abrahamic religions upon absolute literary originality is very similar to the insistence upon inerrancy. In the latter, it is internal contradictions and inconsistency that need to be cleverly harmonized, if not outright ignored. With mimesis, it is obvious external literary relationships that require the same brand of willful denial. Plato basically invents western theology (which is little more than the arguing away of the anthropomorphic aspects of the Greek gods in favor of an ideal transcendentalism) in direct competition with Homeric representations. There is so much Plato in Paul and the gospels that it is all but impossible to recognize a single Hebraic formulation of thought or concept. It's ALL Greek!
Try telling a believer this and they will BLOCK IT OUT. I have these type of discussions with believer everyday and they get very hostile. I never get confrontational with them, just start having a friendly conversation.
Yes, Plato is an important "gate" for understanding the true nature of Christianity, in fact, I see him as the "wide (platus) gate" that "brings destruction".
@@renny3816 Which is sorta why there's such a heavy distrust and dismissal of any kind of higher education amongst many believers. And I don't just mean university education, I mean just simply broadening your own horizons through reading or ecumenically conversing. Faith just sorta allows everybody to know and agree on the same stuff. It equalizes the playing field, in a way, but I don't think that's what was meant exactly when great thinkers wrote about and debated the merits of democracy lol
@@warrensmith8161 Hmmm interesting...would you consider that a pun, or a direct etymology? If it's a pun, it's a really good one! Cheers!
You along with this video just made me super curious about studying Plato. Thank you! :)
This is such strong evidence against Christian fundamentalists
Not if you know the whole story.
@@AdamSpade what whole story? I've read the bible multiple times if that's what you're talking about. Did you see the word "fundamentalists" in my comment?
Almost anything is strong evidence against fundamentalism...
The heavens declare the glory of GOD...or did you not know ?
Mind blown…
More than just against fundamentalism, this a demonstration of the profound and beautiful evolution of religious ideas
Thank you so much for this. I grew up in the JW cult and always admired the bible until I woke up. To hear that the gospels are just copies of contemporary literature is shocking to me but I believe it
The Gospel writers didn't need to copy Anything from paganism
@@johnc.8158 the gospels writers were Greek, and they did
With every video, the rabbit hole just goes deeper and deeper.
Well, if the rabbit hole was a hard-worked library of down-to-Earth common sense AND elite-level logical treasures of historical understanding.
Let me point something out here that might get lost in the friendly atmosphere of the video. Carrier's brand of mythicism is highly sceptical and based on evidence. He's not doing a "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" scholarship. His career depends on being skeptical and careful.
So, what you are seeing here is effectively the result of a peer review. And this is not "benine" in the sense that Carrier gives or needs to give him the benefit of the doubt or something. If there was any bullshit, he would have an incentive to call it out. Yet MacDonald passes. So the friendly agreement you see here isn't pressuposed, but rather the result of good work and the recognition of it.
eh it's naive to think there isn't some professional courtesy involved
Soren Aleksander -- Speaking as a Jewish person: Jews, even many Othodox Jews, do not insist on either literary originality or inerrancy of the Bible; critical study of the Biblical text is not only allowed, but encouraged.
Many Christians, especially Catholics (majority of Christians in the world) and even Protestant Anabaptists (anti-bibliolatry) (a minority even among Protestants), let along Greek-descended Orthodox (who are probably aware of how false/forgery but useful/needed their religion remains) do not insist on literary originality or inerrancy... just "supernatural inspiration wherever you feel like if you are doing it correctly" same as the Jewish mytholaters, both the Israelite (atheist, "wrestling/fighting El") ones and the Judean (praising) ones. Ruth says there were 9 tribes of Isreal (Ennead of Kemet/Egypt) and other rich priests say there were 12 tribes (dodecatheon of Greco-Rome). Just good old competition for strategic land.
4:20 "a scar on his knee that he got hunting a boar". Oh Skyrim...
It’s “interesting” that in an undergraduate Bible degree program, the “allusions” to the Septuagint is well recognized and accepted, in fact it’s emphasized - ie “Jesus is a better… Adam, Moses, Elijah, Elisha, David… etc.” BUT as soon as the obviously same thing is being done in secular texts, Bible scholars throw up their hands in protest.
Forgive my ignorance, but why do bible scholars protest the Homeric 'allusions'? What's their basis for denying mimesis?
@@invisiblegorilla8631 Because in the long run, the more reading you do, and the more you expose yourself to the literature and philosophies of the time, the more you realize that the entire life story of jesus is cobbled together either from rewritings of OT narratives and characters, or heavily influenced by pagan myths and histories already around for centuries. Accepting these possibilities seriously undermines the absolute originality claimed by christian foundation stories. If such widespread emulation, or mimesis, is true, then which stories in the NT can possibly be claimed as authentic and original to establish a real jesus who can be accepted as even quasi-historical?
Genesis ch 5...
Man is appointed mortal sorrow but the blessed GOD shall come down teaching his death shall bring the despairing comfort...
Prove me wrong
@@AAwildeone but aren't a good amount of bible scholars atheist also? I'm sure not all doctorate in bible studies are christian believers.
What reason would they have for denying it easily?
@@AAwildeone The foot washing of his apostles is authentic. It is an ANCIENT TRADITION. It teaches humility and hospitality. Mary washing Yeshua's feet with her hair and oil - authentic. there are many authentic events in the Gospels, Soren. You think Yeshua is some "cobbled together" story bc you've never tried to know the Lord and His Son, truly with your heart.
You are making the biggest mistake by thinking textual criticism somehow negates anything. They are reading about culture, and reading poetry/ literature that uses infused culture. The common denominator here is CULTURE!!!! You think it is mimetic art, when it is habituated culture.
Come on fellas, know when youre being used as a foil against the one and true L-rd. Some of us have been lucky enough to have experience with the love of G-d. Some with our hearts, some with our own vision - and some with both. You think we are unlearned bc we believe. And we just want you to be saved, and stop damning other people bc you need complicity.
Fear does shut down the brain, critical thinking.
It seems undeniable, then, that the authors of the gospels were steeped not only in the Hebrew scriptures (especially the Greek LXX version) but also in the Greek classics -- and probably the Roman classics, too, like Virgil and Ovid. This supports Atwill's contention that the Flavian court is where this literary project had its center. It wasn't done on a whim, and it had to be FINANCED -- state-sponsored propaganda developed by scholars highly knowledgeable in the great literature of their milieu, writing in the lingua franca of the time -- Greek. Furthermore, this literary technique was SHARED by the 4 'evangelists' -- who most certainly were NOT Galilean disciples of a real Jesus recounting genuine memories of the God-Man with whom they had interacted. The brilliant work done by Dr. MacDonald does not rule out Atwill's theory of a Flavian court having produced the New Testament literature -- it backs it up.
So let me get this right...you have totally uneducated fisherman, somehow wasting their time studying greek writings which they would consider the work of pagans under demonic influence... and they tried to top them them? ...and you think this is believable ? These so called academics are way out to lunch. The world expert on the book of Mark is Dr.Larry Hurtado ...he would laugh this to scorn.
Yep
Those who grew up in the Hebrew tradition knew about typology. Why would they not echo Greco-Roman literature for creating typology stories?
Because the Greco- Roman literature was considered fiction and pagan.
@@johnc.8158 that's only why they won't admit it
My father explained this to me when i was 5 1975 he went to shool in greece imingrated 1956 civil war to Sydney NSW Australia i never stopped believing him god bless is soul 🤔🕊️🌻
This is quite profound not only in reference to the Bible but to the development of art in general. Really beautiful.
Yes, unrelated I started to learn more about impressionist art and the movement and uproar it started-- and WHY. Fascinating! The fact that you were taught to copy the masters because it was beautiful indeed and that copying was to show its beauty should be recreated.
This!!!
Great show. Thanks for having Dr MacDonald and including Dr Carrier in the discussion.
The failure of believers is to not realize or recognize the LITERARY devices throughout ALL scriptures; they see them in OTHER denominations but fail to see them in their own!
"They see them in other denominations and fail to see them in their own". Very powerful sentence. In order to de-convert one of my family member, I shared ex-jw channels with him (we both despise JW, because we have family members in it). He quickly agreed with me. Then I asked him if he could see similarities with some of his previous evangelical churches he recently left. It opened his eyes. A few years later, he was free from religion.
@@henrim9348 A feel good ending! If one miracle is true, ANY miracle could be true; If Jesus rose from the dead, why didn't Osiris or Hercules, or Mithras, etc., etc.?
Most people don't bother themselves too much with the doings of other groups.
@@mouthpiece200 Right; except for the 50 centuries of persecutions, wars, Crusades, Inquisitions, Jihads, Pogroms, Holocausts and smug condescension, religious groups ignore each other. AYFKM? They only thing they ignore is the fact that ALL scriptures contain the exact same symbols, primitive superstitions, depravity, racism, ignorance, ridiculous miracle claims and LITERARY DEVICES as theirs do. The point is, its ALL literature; its meant to be cultural artifice, not fact.
@@banba317 like all now people can read,write, watch dumb TV incl.your naive comment but in general they fail to understand and reason according to absolute,i.e. divine principles of logical inference and make some new discoveries ( as in science or in any area of knowledge! What a Moron (on hermeneutics)! Are u still in a cave with just TV set?
Dr MacDonald is definitely the Darwin of christology. Excellent work all round. Go out and make sure this video and the previous ones reach every corner of the world.
Teach ye all nations.
@@danielschaeffer1294lol
I try to tell believers this, but they instantly block it out and say “The Bible is the word of God” or they downright ignore me completely. It’s like they don’t want to hear anything that goes against their belief system. I feel they know we are right, but they don’t want to accept it.
We KNOW you are wrong 😂
@@johnc.8158 No, you really don’t. You just BELIEVE you know differently.
Have you tried an approach ... that uses something you both have in common? Maybe you both dislike a particular Abrahamic denomination (i.e.: JW)?
Lol don’t ruin Santa Claus for them
Ironically, the Bible becomes much more fascinating once you don't feel compelled to read it as if it's an infallible newspaper. Videos like this show how Christians are missing out on vast oceans of meaning by insisting that their favorite little tide pool is all there is. It's as if, instead of listening to a Mozart symphony, they are determined to prove that only the Second Flute part is valid and should be played as a solo.
My pastor was a smart guy but he didn't know jack schitt about any of this stuff. Ya'll teach me more about the Bible than I learned in years of church.
I love your channel dude! ..Such an amazing resource!
It's an archive that is so prolific. What a gift to leave for future generations to come.
This is a legacy to be proud of. We need this knowledge/wisdom. Thank You!
I always learn something from listening to Dennis MacDonald.
I've known this for years.. Just read the philosophy books by the top authors..Its almost word for word..
_"For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we had been eyewitnesses of his majesty."_ 2 Peter 1:16
Was the author of this line aware of the imitation techniques shown in the video? - Looks like this was well known since those 'cleverly devised myths' [some gospels?!] had to be countered with eyewitness accounts. Holy moly...
"Eyewitness" accounts testified by pseudonymous authors decades after the supposed facts reeks of blatant b.s.
Would seriously fail a plagiarism legal test in court today. Obviously, the reasonable question today is would they permit and posit a God unable to come up with his original inspiration? If the answer is yes, then their standard for God is less than their standard for the others now ancient to us.
James Joyce took years to write a story that happened within 24 hours, following Homer for the structure of it and called it Ulysses. plagiat?
@@kamion53 when it's on propose and every one worth knowing in some ways will know, it's called a tour de force. Then, it's got to be really good and has to have additional factors on it's own that made it worth doing. With out that if it pretends to be original, yes, it is plagiarizing.
@@davidburroughs2244 "A good book tells us a lot about its hero; a bad book tells us a lot about its author"
It is, of course, impossible to prove…. And easy to glibly dismiss the most extreme presentation of this hypothesis. Never the less, it is unlikely that writers of any era could avoid the influence of what is in the air around them. For instance… how likely is it that any modern guitarist has no influence from Jimi Hendrix?
It would be more akin to learning guitar 🎸 by studying Hendrix and then people saying it was just in the air, not that the guitarist were mimicking Hendrix.
Derek:
This is a fantastic format! Keep doing episodes like this (as well as the regular interview format).
Great stream! Informative and provocative! Keep it up Derek!!
That was grrrreat! I really love these videos on the emulation of the Homeric epics. Dennis R. McDonald and Richard Carrier are a real treat. And I love when you D. interject and share your understanding, it makes it that much more enjoyable and I love the interactions between the three of you.
Looking forward to seeing more! ✌️
So why are there still believers again? Everyday there is more and more reason to abandon faith. Good work Derek, Dennis and Richard - get your work out there!
IMHO it's because of early conditioning in our culture since birth. Being taught fear shame and guilt as a young impressionable child.
Completely inescapable arguments from both Dr. Carrier and Dr. MacDonald. This is so big Derek. Thanks bro.
Excellent discussion!
Both McDonald & Carrier bring up very important parallelisms that they’ve shewn to be literary ‘borrowings’ in the canonical Greek gospels from the larger Greco-Roman literary world - and clearly much more research needs to be done on the literary forms of the gospel pericopes (including the role of of ‘catch words’ and ‘oral tradition’ especially in ‘Mark’ that permeate the Gospel material) - of which the Aramaic Targum recensions of the (NB : Galilean miracle workers) Elijah-Elisha’q narratives in Kings form the most consistent model for both the Synoptic canonical Greek Gospels and also the ‘7 Signs Gospel’ imbedded into the core material of the 4th Gospel…
One might add a few comments that these scholars are no doubt aware of-e.g. the Haggadic midrashic technique of building pericope stories out of the Hebrew Scriptures -in this case of ‘the whore rubbing Jesus’ ‘reglei’ (‘feet’ is a more ‘polite’ term often us’d in 1st century Palestine for ‘testicles’) seems to have a parallel resonance with the Song of Songs (1:12-14) :
‘When my Lover King reclin’d with his head between my breasts, the odour of my spikenard fill’d the room-his head was like a satchel of Myrrh (a burial spice)…’
This would explain the transition of the source material from the old hag-nurse in the Odyssey 19 to the ‘the woman who was call’d The Consort of the Lord was Miryam-and his disciples us’d to say about her, ‘Can it be that he loves her more than us?’ (Gospel of Phillip)
Presumably ‘Mary the Great’ (Miryam haGedolah) is being referenc’d indirectly by this Gospel pericope (NB : the Gospel’s feet-rubbing whore is never actually nam’d) and it seems telling that in the list of Daviddic Miryams (‘Princess of the Blood’ in ancient Egyptian) Mary ‘Magdalene’ is always mention’d FIRST in the list-even in front of Jesus’ own mother (!) which may well indicate a marital state of sorts existed between Miyramne & Jesus which might also explain her marital rights of bereavement as in John 20:15 ‘Sirrah, they have relocated the corpse of my husband (‘kuriou mou’ translated like Romeo & Juliet’s language as ‘My Lord’ e.g. Juliet to the nurse : ‘Saw you my Lord?’ when asking after the wedding night where Romeo had disappear’d to…)
Interestingly, perhaps, the Greek speaking ‘ho Iesous’ throughout the canonical Greek synoptic gospels uses the term ‘hupocrite’ (lit. ‘Stage Actor’) to describe the sofrim & pharasim & Essenoid Herodians & other Tzadukkim-and don’t forget that Sephoris in the Galilee (being re-built during Jesus’ adolescence) had a working amphitheatre with both Jewish & gentile actors - Jesus himself may well have attended performances & readings of Greek & Hebrew imitative Tragedy on that very stage and/or knew some of the actors himself (some even might have been blood relations of his …) and this may also be applied to the disciples like Peter whose oral (Aramaic) sermons were phrase by phrase translated into the best Greek he could summon-up by ‘John Mark’ who travell’d with him…at least according to some very early traditions quoted by Papias … and much of this sermon material & logia collections found its way into our mangl’d Greek gospel of Mark which was us’d as the primary literary source (among several others) for both the Synoptic gospel material and the 4th Gospel…
Just my $0.02 this AM
This was great. I'd love to see more of this type of video (hand-held walk through), but I do realize that these guys do this for a living. Keep it up!
This was soooo good! Great job!
Great video! Thanks for putting the interview together!
At 22:40, when Dr. Carrier points out that they were able to retell the entire Gospel using only llines from Homer is a very powerful statement.
I've long known that the Sermon on the Mount consists of a literary device similar to devices used by Thucydides (The speech of Pericles during the Pelopennesian War) or Tacitus's set speeches.
Truly unbelievable. Thank you for doing this important research.
Truly Unbelievable and also
Totally False presentation.
@@johnc.8158 Did they make it up?
@@doriesse824
There is absolutely NO correlation between the writings of Homer and the Gospels. Period. Homer was a Pagan and would not have been used by the writers of JESUS in HOLY SCRIPTURE !
@@johnc.8158 Really? Interesting how you can know the mind, culture, and intentions of someone who lived nearly 200 years ago. You must have an amazing scholarly insight or a time machine…
@@johnc.8158 oh my! You’ve corrected a typo… Without addressing anything else. Way to go!
Wow, great stuff. Your work will be known far and wide.
Thank you guys! …. I really enjoyed this little foray into the classics and they way gospel authors mimicked words, lines, and themes from Greek classics and from the Septuagint.
This was VERY informative and interesting. THANK YOU ALL!!! 👏👏👏
Amazing editing. The text in super as the profs talk, with the Greek words poping. Superb. Thank you.
Thank you!
@@DrKippDavis Was it your oeuvre Doc Davis? :-)
@@lunarmodule6419 oui.
So as it turns out with the bible; SIMPSONS DID IT! DOH!
🤣🤣🤣
Amazing work! Thank you
I'm curious if this lends any credence to my theory that Acts 15-16 theatrically plays upon the Bacchae by Euripides. The writers seem immersed in the world of Greek literature.
Derek, you are THE Man! This is brilliant!
Excellent round table with insightful similarities between the Odyssey and Mark
This seems to be pretty relevant. People just don't have a sense for historicity. In general and when it comes to this stuff. If this has enough weight then it's a great lens on the evolution of culture. Though this does not have to be that. They reach for the devices they've got for a universal narrative.
Man, that was fascinating . Need more videos like this, thanks for sharing.
Makes absolute commonsense. Thank you
Very, very intriguing!
(Btw, lol all the religious commercials this channel gets 😉)
I studied Ancient Greek/Roman art in college/grad school. The illustrations are there, pre-Jesus. Pots, murals on walls, floor mosaics and tombs. Very gradual shifts to an audience seeking solace and hope.
Brilliant stuff! This is a slightly homey version of being at a Harvard quality teaching session.
This is what TH-cam was invented for.
Sadly, Christians are not in a position to properly appreciate the author of "Mark."
The apreciations of Mark needs to be discussed.
What did the unbeliever (which he was be the time of writing) want to achieve?
Thanks for sharing! Great work!
Now if you could just convince the evangelicals in the South. If I brought this information to their attention, this is what I'd hear, " I don't care about no Homer and Greek stuff, I just know the bible and Jesus is real."
The Gospel writers of HOLY SCRIPTURE would not have used Pagan literature to copy.
@@johnc.8158 Are you kidding? Sure they did. They couldn't even get the birth and resurrection narratives of Jesus in Luke and Matthew right. They contradict. That's why this isn't history.
@@todbeard8118
Sometimes in court cases
Witnesses may give conflicting
TESTIMONY.
That's why I believe Matthew
And Luke are Real History
And NOT based on Homer.
@@johnc.8158 and that’s why witnesses aren’t the most important factors in a verdict, they aren’t reliable.
@@johnc.8158 I thought Christians believe scripture was inspired by God. Why would he inspire contradictions?
Brilliant!
Great work by Dr.Dennis R. MacDonald.👍
This is what I love about what you do on mythvision, you explore different avenues of religious understanding in its historical context, you treat religion in a similar manner as science in that, there's always more to learn, to change the views on something, not be stuck in dogmas from the middle ages!
Thank you for this
Bro you are Awesome. Thank you and you are truly appreciated. Keep bring that truth💪💪💪🔥🔥🔥🔥👊👊👊👊
My kids do this all the time: Catch "references" from pop culture in the series, cartoons, movies that they watch and, even in memes. The classics were just more robust in their cultural referencing; Memesis they called it, who'd a thunk?
This is an awesome video and explication of the texts!!! It was recommended to me in a reply from Sigalius Myricantur! Your video on El and Yahweh is stunning, even when one is aware of the basic facts. Your interview with Prof. Stavrakopoulou is breathtaking. Thanks for your work!
OMG I love this dialogue and comparison, thank you three for doing This! If only more would just open their eyes, and see how the book was taken from earlier sources, not from God!
I absolutely loved this show you guys are great thank you
Thank you so much gentlemen! Bravo! Your channel was pivotal in giving me the courage to share on my own, despite the INTENSE backlash. Keep up the wonderful, scholarly work it is making a huge difference in thousands of lives.
😁 Thank you, let's link up someday for a show.
@@MythVisionPodcast that would be awesome bro. I'll email you this weekend. You are killing it!
I am an Atheist. I am studying the Bible as a hobby to help me appreciate some other great works. Thank you for speeding up my personal research.
If scholars of the Hebrew Bible are expected to be educated and familiar with things like
the Hittite Suzerainty treaties, Laws of Eshnuna, Middle Assyrian laws, Code of Hammurabi, Eshar Haddan,
the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Descent of Inanna, the Enuma Elish,
Ugaritic texts like the Baal Cycle,
the nature of Mesopotamian and ANE religions, Persian history and Zoroastrianism,
the Wisdom of Amenemope, the Amarna Letters,
as well as have a good understanding of Ancient Near East history, and specifically history of the Levant,
in addition to understanding text criticism and literary criticism, Documentary Hypothesis. . .
I don't think it's that much to ask for New Testament scholars to know the works of Plato, Homer, Pindar, and Hesiod.
Hebrew Bible scholars have a higher standard it seems.
At the very least they should know that it is necessary to study Homer and Plato if they are going to read 1st century Greek texts written in a region bordering the Mediterranean. It is so obvious, yet NT scholars just neglect doing it.
Thanks
You guys are my heros. I wish more Christians would do Bible study from secular scholars instead of drinking the same old Kool-Aid from their pastors. Please keep spreading the word you guys are awesome.
Wow.. this is magnificent 👁🦻
Mad respect and props for what you do.
Love this channel, the cases you bring to light about history are done so well .
I have a question for Dennis he may already have answered this . He is a support of the Q document. Could Homer be the Q document ? Does anyone know his thoughts on this ?
"you will not find what we're going to read right now in any commentary or discussion of the this text"
Actually, Murdock discusses it and a lot of Homer and how some of his concepts ended up in the bible. Read her book, "Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver" by Murdock.
It's too bad that Carrier has always refused to read a single book by Acharya S/Murdock because her work is considerably better at discussing issues that Carrier refuses to study like Astrotheology and because of that intellectual dishonesty by Carrier it makes things far more difficult for mythicists.
; )
If Murdock was connecting Gospels to the Greek epics it would have been due to her knowing Dennis work.
@@MythVisionPodcast Acharya S / Murdock was perfectly capable of discovering these types of things for herself - she read Homer, Plato and many others in the original ancient Greek in college. I'm sure she became aware of Dr. MacDonald's claims on Homer at some point but Murdock's linguistic skills were outstanding and she had made these connections long ago throughout her books but I'm not even trying to claim she was the first. Murdock has brought many new things translated into English for the first time throughout her works. Her death is a tragic loss to Mythicism.
Murdock's work proves historians wrong in both astronomy and religion on the age of the zodiac, for starters, with credible evidence that actually exists. Her work is way ahead of its time and academia needs to catch-up. She faced enormous biases, discrimination, smears and misogyny for sharing the truth about our ancestors' history, evolution and veneration of the stars - a topic that Richard Carrier admits on video that he refuses to study, which makes him a bad representative for Mythicism when he entirely rejects such a pivotal subject as Astrotheology based purely on Carrier's own biases - something a real scholar is expected to over-come.
Here's a sample from page 155-6 from the 2020 revised edition of "The Christ Conspiracy" by Murdock:
"Since 1999 when "Christ Conspiracy" was first published, new credible evidence further substantiating the astrotheological origins of many of our most cherished religious concepts demonstrates that the ancients had knowledge of precession of the zodiac as far back in time as 40,000 years ago.
"This knowledge, it seems, enabled them to record dates, using animal symbols to represent star constellations, in terms of precession of the equinoxes. Conventionally, Hipparchus of Ancient Greece is credited with discovering this phenomenon. We show here that this level of astronomical sophistication was actually known at least 36 thousand years earlier. Evidence accumulated from many ancient archaeological sites, representing dates from at least 38,000 BC to the middle of the Neolithic, overwhelmingly supports this view.
• The Lion Man of Hohlenstein-Stadel, southern Germany circa 38,000 BC
• Chauvet, northern Spain circa 34,000 BC
• Lascaux, southern France circa 15,000 BC
• Altamira, northern Spain circa 14,000 BC
• Göbekli Tepe, southern Turkey circa 10,000 BC
• Çatalhöyük, southern Turkey circa 7000 BC
- "Decoding European Palaeolithic art: Extremely ancient knowledge of precession of the equinoxes" by Martin B. Sweatman, Alistair Coombs, Athens Journal of History Volume 5, Issue 1, Pages 1-30, January 2019
BTW, did you know at the back of "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold - Revised Edition" (2020) on page 525 the book rips Carrier and Bart Ehrman apart for their sloppy and egregious errors and intellectual dishonesty on a subject they know absolutely nothing about. Carrier does more damage to mythicism than he helps due to his willful biases against Astrotheology.
Would you consider doing a video with Martin Sweatman on these issues?
; )
@@donotcare44 I don't doubt its interesting but is it even possible for any cultural knowledge to remain identifiable for thousands of years, especially without writing? That's one long game of telephone and it seems hard to believe the "message" could remain intact so long.
The intro and the music struck me to the core with fear
Just a straight banger!
Wow
What they did
Why they did it
Speaking of their actions as brilliant and artful
Justin's video tagged this one and I am very, very glad I watched it and grateful for it and the delivery.
Ya'll made it easy for people to keep weapons and shields down and be open to understanding the matter.
Thank you all.
Excellent show
Thanks!
Thank you 😊
How did they use Homer????
Did Jesus say 'd'oh' did he keep wringing someones neck growling 'why you little!' did they say he keeps getting wasted at Moe's?
I think you're conflating the ancient author Homer with the modern-day Mr. Homer Thompson.
Simpson?
@@davidburroughs2244 😂😂😂
Some say Simpson, so we must tap on their foot and say "hello Mr. Thompson" to remind them.
🤣🤣🤣
Amazingly interesting. I was skeptical of this theory until this video.
I've done this with many times with other cultures and religions. They all had writings that pointed to God and Christ.
Romans 3:29
[29]Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Christ was the Messiah for the Hebrews, Sayoshaphant for the Zoroastrians, Holy Khan of Confucius, etc. I've also found crossovers in Egyptian mythos, Cherokee mythos, and in Cambodia and others. Even the Buddhists have prophecies of Mitrayah, which means friend of Yah, and he fulfilled those, too.
In one passage, Paul said, in Greek, to the synagogue at Corinth, a hub for Greek worship, that Thanatos was swallowed by Athena, and he was quoting Isaiah 🤯
Dennis! Dennis! Dennis! Dennis! Dennis! Dennis! Dennis! Dennis! Dennis! Dennis! Dennis! Dennis! Dennis! Dennis! Dennis! Dennis!
Licona would garner more respect if he just winked and said maybe Yahweh was a fan boy of Homer, etc.
I have never looked at the Gospels from this angle before. Thank you Derek for bring the two doctors together for us to learn. This new knowledge is going to go into my arsenal.
Put this in your arsenal as well...
1948🇮🇱+80=2028
2028-7=2021
For all of our days pass away in your WRATH We finish our years as with a sigh the days of our years are threescore and ten 70 and if by reason or strength they are fourscore years 80 yet there span is but TROUBLE and SORROW for it is soon cut off and we fly away...
PSALM 90:9-10
2021 not 2012
Prepare for the great tribulation not the great reset Psalm 90:9-10 is the only calendar for this generation and it shall not pass...
@@legiousiamdccclxxxviii2735 nice 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 have a great one. I honestly don't know if you are serious or not😂😂😂kinda hard to notice sarcasm through text.
@@yenziwemotha6020
For where there is a lie so to is the truth hidden from the clouded mind...
@@legiousiamdccclxxxviii2735 you are killing me man😂😂😂
@@yenziwemotha6020
Comedy is but the chosen remedy for the spiritually inept within the face of absolute uncertainty...
So they had been working on the theology and counter theology of a messiah long before Jesus showed up. Like the story was already being written and slipped Jesus into their mold.... maybe???
amazing
Homer borrowed from the Egyptians who borrowed from the Sumerians et al. It’s called communicating abstract ideas in limited language. Makes sense Christ comes at the time of the spread of the new technology: The Book.
The ending was told from the beginning...
I believe that Lot and his daughters in Genesis if as much about when a stranger knocks on your door and the custom of hospitality than anything else. Just like in the travels of Odysseus. The touch of man is all through the bible.
Doesn’t mean it’s not true. Mark wrote to Greeks. Sounds like framing the Jesus story in similar ways of Homer’s story might’ve been a efficient and interesting way to share the story with the Greeks.
Brilliant work! Profoundly educational. Thank you for sharing these insights with us all ❤
I wonder if he goes into the Nausikaa episode in the Odyssey. Nausikaa welcomes Odysseus back to the land of the real and the living after his journey to the land of the dead and the hellish case of Circe?
At the very least, these parallels allow me to remember the specific NT stories because I can connect them to similar Greek stories. They both share an amazing degree of similarities to a general structure and pattern. QUESTION- how can I get in notebook binder form his books? I see you guys are reading from it. It is easier to highlight, compare and contrast different sections, etc?
He will be publishing it soon. I think for really cheap too.
@@phillipstroll7385 And the Matrix films are ......
@@phillipstroll7385 Nothing has fallen, the average human has always been dumb.
This feels like a uni tutorial and I love it!
Studying the Epics was what finished off any possibility of the bible being true. The echoes of the Epic tradition are far too many to be coincidental; it's a human creation written by humans, for humans, using established literary patterns and philosophies of the day.
“Shakespeare said that art is a mirror held up to nature. And that’s what it is. The nature is your nature, and all of these wonderful poetic images of mythology are referring to something in you. When your mind is trapped by the image out there so that you never make the reference to yourself, you have misread the image." --Joseph Campbell
MythVision spreading the gospel here!
Excellent work
Thank you...
WOW! This is the nail on the coffin.
This is why I watch this channel. I don't care for petty swipes at Christianity for I feel we owe a tone to it, but real criticisms are fine. Especially ones what come from love.
I'm Catholic, by the way.
Instant like. Macdonald and Carrier? I'm in! Lol
If ANYONE out there hasn't read "The Epic Tale of Gilgamesh". ... the first book actually written you should because you will see so many things were borrowed from that one book of poems. The flood, etc. Extremely similar, but with different characters of course.
I don't think it's the first book, but it is a great epic for sure.
We can call ourselves lucky that written text of that tale survived, but I think the written recording of that tale had a limited audience, A far greater audience had the spoken versions of the tale, versions remembered by heart and told by professional ( and less professsional ) storietellers. The structure of the tale probably stayed intact, where the details evolved depending on who told the story. Kind of the way the same fairytale differs as when your mother told it or when your grandmother told it or you telling it to you little sister.
@@MythVisionPodcast // I just googled it to make sure and we know we can trust Google right..lol. Anyway, here's what Google said:
The first ever books
The first book ever written that we know of is The Epic of Gilgamesh: a mythical retelling of an important political figure from history. In the 14th century, the Jikji was printed in Korea in movable (metal) type: a collection of Buddhist Zen teachings.Dec 3, 2019..😜