Can we make REAL Floppy Disks work with THEC64®? 1541 Mini!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2024
- "Honey, I shrunk the disks!" Ever wondered if the new THEC64 could get more nostalgic with a REAL floppy disk drive? Prepare for some floppy envy... Made possible by the supporters & our friendly sponsor PCBWay: www.pcbway.com...
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The thing is... Windows isn't "doing something weird", it's formatting it as a FAT12 floppy disk, as you would expect it to... But the Mac is just treating it as a raw block device (like any USB drive) and is formatting it as such (with a full partition table, MBR, and most likely FAT32). -- so the Mac is what's being weird here, it's basically treating the device+disk as a really tiny thumb drive, instead of like a floppy disk.
Good points. Could be! But then, why do 720KB disks formatted in Windows work with THEC64 (as I mentioned in the video), but only 1.44MB don't work from Windows 🤔 In other words why does Windows format 720KB as a raw block device (from what you're saying), but it formats 1.44MB as a floppy? That's what I mean by "something weird" going on...
Yeah, that is what I was wondering... it showed FAT12 when he put the diskette in the Mac, which is correct. The Mac formatted it wrong, but luckily it was what the C64 needed.
What I am surprised about is the C64 firmware can read FAT32 but not FAT12?
Just a couple days ago I tried to format Micro SD cards for use in MSX computer cartridges for FAT16 on Windows 10 and they didn't work at all, but on an old Win7 laptop they worked every time with the same settings. Not really related to floppy disks but something is a little weird with Win10 and FAT.
@@knightcrusader That doesn't surprise me at all, TBH. FAT12 is only used on floppy drives--you can't format a typical USB drive using it, after all--so why would the makers of the C64 feel the need to support it?
Hi - it may be the same problem as with older pc's and hardware, windows xp and newer use a type of does emulator not a full dos like what was used up to Win 98
Try a older machine that boots up on genuine does 4 / 5 / 6.22 and try formating the floppy on those machines.
Back in the day i had a compaq 386 with win 3.1, that pc could format a variety of floppies that worked on "strange machines"
Dos 4 and 5 etc also has command line options for the format command - type format /? to review the options you can use
Regards
George
You've proven that even a small floppy can deliver a LOAD.
I absolutely love this. These should be mass produced, I bet there are a lot of hobbyists who would want to have one!
already have one of these drives, definitely want to print this case for it, looks awesome!
I love that the Krylon paint is an exact match to the C64. Great work there.
This is the best project of this kind I’ve ever seen. I LOVE these videos where you make diy fabrications of products you either couldn’t get or, better yet, never quite existed in the first place (your car, this drive, the Star Wars cabinet). Please make more!
Sound of gluing floppy drive to the box.... epic.
Now all you need is an HDMI monitor that looks like a 1702 to go with this setup.
How about a mini cassette drive that uses a micro sd card?
I was thinking the exact same thing
I haven't tried adding a USB hub to my C64-mini (yet), but if you can (and I don't see why you couldn't), then a 1702-mini would be an awesome place to sneak a small USB hub in also. So you could have 1 USB cable from the C-64 to the 1702-mini, and then ports for the 1541-mini, the joystick, and an external keyboard.
What about a video converter to go from HDMI to S-video or composite to use with a real 1702?
@@00Skyfox it's a C-64 mini with a 1541 mini so a 1702 mini would just fit.... do they even make video converters that go for HDMI back ???
I loved seeing the old ZZap 64, I used to read that as a kid and had every edition. Unfortumately they were recycled years ago but loved the magazine
I actually never had a floppy drive with my C64. Always used a Commodore Datasette. 😄
Nothing like that "PRESS PLAY ON TAPE" to bring up the nostalgia 🤩
Yep, just saw this. You are a very resourceful bloke, with lot's of spare time in your hands. Loved the whole thing!
Thanks!!
You’re voice is so calming. I could listen to you all day.
Thank you for your kind words! Means a lot 👍🕹️
For some reason watching you 3d print that case got me all nostalgic for using a vacuum former in school many moons ago 🙂
• You used the GUI interface to format the floppy. If you use the format command from the command-line, you get better control the parameters.
• _Airwolf_ still has one of the best theme songs of any TV show.
Yeah GParted on Linux has fat16 and fat32 right there and better control over the parameters while providing a nice GUI too!
These USB floppies don't behave like a real drive either, it has flash memory that it copies the floppy into before telling the computer, and makes it difficult or even impossible to format correctly, course, trying to mount a realy floppy drive in modern hardware is...uh.. tricky these days.
Started building a XP era desktop with a Athlon 64 and a Asrock Dual-Sata 939 socket motherboard to start playing some retro games and using retro hardware, will probably dual boot linux, handily it has a header for a proper floppy drive (which I'd love to test with a 5.25" drive too), even have a AGP slot "BFG TECH Geforce 6800 GT OC" graphics card which will be heaps of fun to test out, mercifully it also has Sata 1 and 2 ports, USB, and even a couple PCI-e slots so it can be fitted with modern parts too.
Tempted to customize the case like a Commodore computer, especially since I just found a real 1541 floppy drive recently...
That Airwolf game runs exactly how I remember it. As the action speeds up, the music slows down.
He-Man used to do that too.
I've found some great videos on this channel. And I've just subscribed.
Thank you.
I`m a massive Amiga fan myself and have a few machines, but i started with the C64 back in the day, and watching your videos like this brings back those feelings of excitement that i felt then, always look forward to watching your new videos, keep up the amazing work you are doing. Amazing
Amigazing! :D
You should have included an image of the 5.1/4 in spindle hole on the label, it would have made it look even better. Still looks awesome though. :)
THIS....IS....AWESOME!!!! Thanks for keeping retro alive.
"Were you at the pool?" LOL!
I've recently finished making this 1541-Mini. Very happy with it, and love how authentic it looks next to the C64 Mini. Great work devising this cool thing into the world, and all the hard work put into your videos!
I’m looking for one that works with C64 mini/maxi. Or that would read my Commodore 3 1/2 / 5.25 floppy disk On my computers, did you make a video of what you made and how it’s done
ITS BEAUTIFUL!! I love that you don't cut corners. You have incredible attention to detail. Thank you!
This is by far one of the coolest projects you have done! I thoroughly enjoyed it! You should offer this as a service or document it out as open-source. I’d buy it!
Thanks! Well the models are free in the description and you can just follow along with the video I guess 👍🕹️
Everyone knows USB cables are multidimensional, I'm pretty sure many of them have at least five sides! Another great video, love the look of the drive!
Always had a love- hate relationship with the 1541. Like many, I started with the cassette so the jump to the 1541 was revolutionary. But it wasn’t long before some of the shortcomings started popping up. Loved this project though.
wow thank you so much for offering the project files for free
Isn't it weird that I grew up with all these computers (started with the mighty Speccy) and never did I think even in my wildest thoughts that all this was possible. To me the future always looked like the 60's view of it and not how it is today - a hybrid mash of the 70's and future. Yet, somehow, I knew this was where we'd end up. I don't know how to explain it, but maybe my brain just changed to accept what did change as inevitable and never thought any different. You know what though, I wouldn't have wanted to grow up and live through any other time. Well, except maybe 1000 years from now, where I could go to the fun park on the moon to see the sailors there...
Absolutely love this project!
This should go into serial production. I'd buy one... Great work!
Wonderful job. I still have the original C64 and 1702 monitor and disk drive and 1525 printer stored upstairs somewhere along with the "Your Commodore 64" book and Programmers book. I haven't used it in decades, but I'm thinking of getting it out to play some games. I'm surprised to find that there are a number of people still interested in this old machine on the internet. I didn't play games originally as I used it for programming in basic and assembly and took the board out to build a robot in the 1980s. It's in my mind that I spent around 2k for the above - which was much more in purchasing power in those days. I'm retired now and may power the old 1 MHz up just to see what I can do with it.
Your dog is surprisingly curious about the sound from the floppy drive. One would think she would have gotten accustomed to it by now!
Well this one was new! 😉
@@RetroRecipes Astute animals! Can probably tell which track it's reading at any given moment :D
The sound effects are comedy genius!
Awesome. Thanks for doing that. Ooh you have IKEA GALANT desks too. BTW someone does now make. USB-B to Commodore serial adapter. You can plug the 1541 into a Windows PC and access the files directly over USB.
Pretty cool! Love the label too!
Your lady, son, you are batting well above your average there. Greets from UK.
So talented. The homebuild floppy drive casing was really impressive.
For the C64 Maxi, a full scale 1581 looking case would be so cool.
Finished it tonight .. thanks again ..... love the Videos
Fantastic once again ! You give me so much joy seeing all the retro refurbs and this adaptation of the usb floppy to look like a 1541 drive is breathtaking. You’re a very smart guy CJ and love the shows! Here’s to many more with you ladyfractic and of course puppyfractic
Cheers Harry!
just ordered TheC64 with a wee bit of Christmas cash - will have to go grab one of these USB floppy drives and try this out - looks like good fun as haven't used a floppy drive in ages
oh my GOD!!! awesome work with the disk driver 1,44!!!! greetings man!
Good video. You should carry that 3D printed case in your store.
Spectacular new sound affects library 👍
The irony is we would have thought a 3.5 inch floppy was so advanced back in the 80s... We either used 5 1/4 disks or Cassette, which I'm glad to see the back of, hopefully nobody's nostalgic for Data cassettes! 😂
Great work on the 1541 mini and the sound effects repertoire is getting better and better.
Great Job and video as per usual , thanks to the Perifractic family , my favorite retro family !
What a neat project
I know what's going on. What's the difference between a floppy disk and a USB drive (any type)? A partition table.
A floppy disk can have a partition table on it, but back in the day, it didn't have one. The first sector on the disk (boot sector) ID'ed that it was a floppy disk and the file system was put on the disk not in a partition (like a hard drive), but from that first sector on (like an individual partition).
In essence, a hard drive partition is just a larger capacity floppy disk... just without the floppiness (and physical accessibility).
Windows, having it's heritage from MS-DOS, remembers how to properly format a floppy and lay out the file system, *without the partition sector*. Because that's how MS-DOS 3.3 did it.
The Mac is treating the floppy as a USB hard drive (just not so hard) and slapping a partition table on it.
So what is The C64 looking for when it first opens that first sector of a disk? It's looking for a partition table, not a boot sector. It rejects the latter.
I bet if you took that Mac formatted USB-driven floppy and stuck it in an old PC running MS-DOS 3.3 or later (up to 6.22), the PC will say "HEY! WHAT THE HELL DID YOU STICK IN THE DRIVE?!?!"
I wonder if it would make a difference to format the drive using command prompt and using some of the options there. There are also format utilities out there that might help.
Not if that USB drive IS a floppy drive.
@@SummerFunMan Nope, USB floppy drive uses the USB Mass Storage protocol, like everything else (even as a fall-back from the newer protocol). While it's ID'ed as a floppy, it's technically just a storage device.
@@strredwolf: It's still a floppy disk drive, so it's a floppy disk drive regardless of what connection it uses. I even have one and it comes up as an A or B drive somehow.
@@SummerFunMan You can assign any drive to those letters at time of formatting. All Windows does is recognize "Hey, this is a floppy drive, I need to treat it old school..."
Macs? "This is a storage device. It needs a partition table. Floppy disk? You mean that crap we tossed 20 years ago? Grow up!"
Linux/Unix? "Okay, that's a floppy drive. Here's the device access point for it. I even named it starting with 'fd' so you know it's one. Feel free to add a partition table or access it raw. It's all on you."
This channel makes me dive into my beloved 80's...Just love it!!!
@Retro Recipes Krylon Camouflage paint is helping this cheap Chinese drive Camouflage itself as a mini version of it's more expensive big brother 😂 love that.
Thanks for infecting me with the retro computing virus!
I just bought a C64 on ebay after i had given away my childhood computer some 35 years ago to a kid who i thought needed to learn some basic BASIC.
I'm going to watch your buyer's guide again now to make sure it's working for the next 35 years...
Woot for new video love all your videos send you and your wife and dogs a virtual wave
*gets something super old and janky to work* "This is amazing!" nostalgia diving is the best.
Love these videos.......from our Transatlantic friend...
The key part was "MBR". Because floppies are so small, they're not usually partitioned. However, practically all USB flash disks are big enough to warrant partition tables. Windows probably takes a similar stance, that floppies don't need partition tables. You could use fdisk or parted in Linux too. Neither of those cares about the disk they're operating on, only that it is a block device.
The original 1541 disks were single-sided 180K per side, made up of 40 tracks with 17-21 sectors (depending on distance from the centre of the disk, average 18) and 256 bytes per sector. Thus the capacity was 40 x256 x 18. All 3½ inch disks are doubel-sided 80 track, 9 or 18 sectors per track,and 512 bytes per sector, giving 80 x 512 x 9 (360K) or 80 x 18 x 512(720K). In addition different disks use different sector numbers. IBM use 01, Amstrad use Hex &41 , &81 or &C1 to determine CPC or PCW or CPM operating systems. I think Apple IIe used 09. There are therefore a whole load of potential reasons why the disks formatted on the PC would not work in the USB drive but the Apple ones did. It depends on the settings in the USB drive's ROM and the C64mini's inerface.
Tinker tinker tinker tinker, I love it! Thumbs up👍🏻😁 I want one ruler like that too!!
They sell them at pcbway.com ;-)
You sir are crazy talented and have some of the best creator videos I have the pleasure of watching. Outstanding work and very inspiring to give it a go too. Such a great watch 🏴🤘😎
i dont miss floppy disks 💾
i absolutely love your 3D print though
i have the "mini" and "maxi" but never grew up with c64 - had the greenscreen apple pc at school & the NES system
looking forward to checking out the library on the c64 ✨
Amazing work and video. I own a 1581 myself for the C64, but now I want this cute little 3D printed 1541 for my theC64 mini and maxi. 👍🏻
The Mac creates a partition on the disk, thereby making it look just like a usb flash disk to the linux. The device handler knows what do do when a /dev/sdX1 appears, that is mount it. But if just a /dev/sdX or sg device appears it can't automatically mount it.
The hey day of home PCs - where they were simple enough to be able to write your own programs and create. Today we have so much power but less inclination to create. There are exceptions like yourself and others using 3D printing, making video content etc.
Gotta admit, I thought he got an actual 1541 working with THE64 when I saw the thumbnail. If someone gets one of those working, I'll be ultra impressed!
Well done!
I love how Puppyfractic hangs on your every word!😎😁
I have had similar problem with an old PC. I used a floppy disc that was formatted in W10. When I was comparing sectors, I found out that in sector #0 at position 15h has to be value F9h to get it working. I don't remember what information it exactly holds, but if interested, I can dig into my old notes.
very nice video (drive 1541) nostalgie
Excellent video as always! You are for sure keeping up with the Commodore! Side note, you've inspired me to do more with my Amstrad PCW 8256. You sir are a National Treasure... on a local level ;-)
The hot glue sounds at 11:15 OMG!!! HAHAHA...
Neat start
Another fantastic build. Do you recall a 5 1/4 floppy disk maker that used an elephant as a logo? Their slogan was something like, An elephant never forgets.
Yes but I can't recall the brand. Try Google?
@@RetroRecipes Elephant Memory Systems - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › Elephant_Memory_Systems
Amazing sound effects.
I remember getting my first 1581 and thought I AM SUPERIOR it lasted about 2.2 days.
This is so awesome! I wonder how difficult it would be to edit the STL's a bit to form a 1571 style? I was a bigshot I guess, as I started with a 128 and 1571 in '87 and only acquired a 1541 in '95 from my girlfriend's dusty closet....her real closet, not a euphemism. 😁
When I tossed my 3.5" floppies and drives a few years ago I swore they would just be remembered as low storage and unreliable tech that would never become cool vintage like our lower storage and equally unreliable 5.25 Commodore software/hardware and here I am pricing usb floppy drives and 3d printers on Amazon. Nostalgia is so silly but so fun.
I’d love to use a mini 1050 disk drive with the Atari 400 mini. The Atari 8-bits are my favourite of the 80s computers.
If you could take an LCD monitor and add a 1702 front to it, that would be an insanely cool setup.
This!! Especially if screen was to scale!
That came out awesome!!
Nice case for the floppy drive.
That's cool.
Since I made my myself a "C64 Maxi" off a broken C64 and a Raspberry Pi 3 before the Mini even arrived, I could see myself making use of your project as well.
Thanks for showcasing this.
Loving this...!! You are so talented mate.. looks amazing
Thank you so much 😀
Fun fact, you can also do LOAD "*",8,1 and it will boot the game and run it at same time.
Great video only thing I wished you had tried are 1581 disk images which were for the 3.5" disk drive for the C64 maybe an update for a future video?
That is an incredible 3d print + paint job!!!!!!!
That is really cool that it worked and loaded the games!
I'd like to see you use the worlds's highest-capacity floppy disk, the Iomega Zip 750, as the drive mechanism for your new model of "1581" for this system (that is, if you can get a USB Zip 750 and replace its case with your own).
Congrats, this is beautiful!
You should try building something like this but with a bigger capacity drive inside, like an Iomega ZIP 100, 250 or 750 (all other large capacity floppies are much harder to find today), it would mostly defeat the purpose of swapping disks, but you could keep a huge collection in just a couple of disks.
As much as the Zip drives were popular in their day, the infamous ' click of death ' highlighted shortcomings in their design and were deemed unrepairable.
Why can’t USB EVER fit first time?
Good stuff as usual 😃
It's because USB is the first four dimensional connector.
This is a mystery that will never be solved.
USB cables have a dot or logo on the upside of the connector. You can feel it with your fingers, and see it with your eyes. Just make sure it's facing upwards in the device you're trying to plug it into and it'll slot in first time.
The only problem comes when you have connectors that are on their side, like in a PC tower or some TV on the side inputs. You just have to be aware that they've been rotated 90 degrees.
Or... you have some wise crack and they put the USB port on upside down for no reason what so ever, like my ZTE mobile phone. Doesn't even work with docking stations because of it unless I want the display facing away from me... Yea, just get USB-C connectors when possible from now on.
after 10 different plug attempts, finally we have usb-c
@@simonj48 yeah, I wish that was how it worked, but it's dependent on how the circuit board in the device is mounted. I have used a fair amount of devices where the USB socket is upside down to how it's supposed to be because the circuit board inside the device is upside down. 60% of the time it works every time!
That's fantastic and so worth it. I love using floppies on my Amiga and retro PCs and this is a great way to have that feeling on your TheC64. Love you work as always.
You pained the drive and I no longer can see it. Ohh... You used camouflage paint. Got it. :D Another great video, BTW.
Haha!
04:11 You always have to plug in an USB-A plug three times: First up (doesn't fit), then down (doesn't fit either), then up again (now fits miraculously)...
That's pretty awesome. Nice work.
FAT12 is some fearsome craziness.
I totally get that this is about the nostalgic disk drive feeling and also about proof of concept. But besides that, the idea isn't really that out there ludicrous. What is it we rapidly run out of on TheC64 Maxi and rather instantly on the Mini? - Yes, USB-Ports!
So... how about a miniature 1541 lookalike with a USB-hub in the back, and obviously since so many of us retro-nutcases already use SD2IEC card readers and Pi1541 drive emulators (and not to mention that SD and microSD cards already look a tiny little bit like floppy disks) then need I say it; a card reader in the front.
the mad man. he actually did it!
All said and done that ended up looking phenomenal
I spit out my tea at the glue noises!!
Yay, Saturday morning, cup of Tea (Irish Breakfast) and a new video from Retro Recipes, perfect.
7:57 Nice.
I like that expression "It's always the third way around with USB." So true. A neat trick is that the USB logo on the device is supposed to be on the top, so as long as you have that logo face up, it should work, assuming the company that made the device did it right. Before I knew that trick I would just end up looking at the USB directly to see how it fit. Still a pain though. lol
Great work!
The ports are upside down on the c64 mini because the circuit board inside is mounted upside down.
@@kevinholloway4950 Ah. Weird.
USB was originally designed to be able to be plugged in regardless of whether it's upside down or right way up, but they figured it was too complicated.
LMAO Sounds about right.
Cries in sideways USB port
Just remember that "Macintosh" is able to interface with almost everything... including an alien computer (on "Independence Day" movie)
But that was a PowerMac, not a crappy x86 IBM clone. Without the amazing might of PowerPC, they can't possibly hack the aliens.
wow I like how you made 3.5" look as big as 5.25" :)
I remember that Goldrunner music was also in one of the levels of The Human Race.
Nothing beats the real thing!
FFS who cares go back into your hole
I'm thinking on doing one of those but for full size floppy drive