I really appreciate lists like these, as it gives me perspective when designing games. Avoiding things that players hate is one of the keys to making games that they like.
5:12 - Not very often, but when it _does_ happen, I am _not_ happy. I actually had my Zigzagoon do that to a Ralts that I wanted to capture in my latest run of Pokemon Emerald. (I keep a couple of Zigzagoons around since they have Pickup and are also semi-decent as far as early-game normal type Pokemon go.) In the few battles after that one, that Zigzagoon picked up _two_ full heals. Of course, I couldn't stay mad. (Yeah, I get sentimental about my Pokemon, so what? Even though they're pretend animals in a video game, I still cherish them.)
Josh's reaction to the second Demyx battle is the same one I had when I had to keep fighting that loser over and over, getting more and more pissed off every time! Oh, and you can defeat Leon during the first encounter with him in Kingdom Hearts at Traverse Town. The only thing is that you lose out on getting an Elixir from him if you don't.
I still don't get why they played a clip of Skyward Sword while talking about mandatory boss rushes, since the boss rush in Skyward Sword was entirely optional!
323starlight And how do you expect people to become good at shield bashing WITHOUT going through trial and error? Also, wouldn’t 100% completion require you going through the boss rush?
"But it's so unrealistic. I mean...getting a perfect headshot! Without seeing him _at all_! The moment he pokes his head out..._That's stupid!_" So are turn-based strategy and Rocket Jumping. No complaints to them.
15. I was never bothered by these. 14. I love and hate these. 13. I like these, but I know where you guys are coming from. 12. I don't encounter these, so no opinion. 11. I don't like these either. 10. Odd. I never found them as a problem. 9. Same as 12. 8. I'm fine with these. 7. I feel you guys...
*Ability loss:* This seems to work better in literature. When Chewie noted the loss of the Force, my first thought was "Ysalamiri?" *Save points:* Then there are the I Wanna Be The games, where the difficulty level manifests as the total number of save points. And _Getting Over It_ (made four years after this video) is noted for a complete lack of save points, and even just before the end two slips in a row can completely reset the game if the second one lands you on the Snake.
Kingdom Heart's fight with Leon wasn't a forced-loss scenario. Heck, one time I even ended up beating Leon, if not taking 3 potions with. The thing is, that isn't a forced loss scenario, since you CAN win it. Not saying everything else that has forced-loss scenarios is not trash, but ya know. :3
Silvah3466 It's kind of forced-loss, since the outcome of the battle is the same whether you win or lose. Just because you aren't forced to lose against the boss themselves doesn't mean it's not a forced loss. Like they said in the video, it's also when you beat the boss and then die (or pass out, or whatever) in the next cutscene.
Fun fact about the races in Banjo Tooie: If you mash the button just enough to stay directly behind Mary, you can tail her until the last third of the race, then rocket to the finish before she can catch up. Just like real competitive racing!
The same outcome happens whether you win or lose against Leon. Odds are, you will lose (at least the first time) but it makes your future victory against him in the Pegasus Cup all the more satisfying. Plus, if you do beat him, you will later get an Elixir as a reward. The Cloud fight... you don't get anything special whether you win or lose, aside from EXP; it's more of a challenge to beat him the first time around, and, like with Leon, it makes your future victory against him in the Hercules Cup more satisfying. The fight against both of them in the Hades Cup isn't just Final Fanservice, but it's for the benefit of you cheering when you beat _both_ powerful swordsmen who beat you before. When you take the Darkside in Dive to the Heart and the first fight with Sabor into account, it just goes to show that the developers knew when not to punish you for losing a tough fight early on, and it also shows that Sora is an inexperienced kid in way over his head but who has the inner strength to overcome anything.
I think an fps cover system would be fun. You know,realistically calculating your opponents movements,getting read to fire,and then peeking your head out when you think he's there instead of just sitting with your character in your camera and the people you are looking to kill being easy to spot when they pop out. it can turn in cover combat into a full on stalemate when that happens.
I would argue that Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts II handle the Forced Failure scenario relatively well. In the first Kingdom Hearts, with both your first encounter with Leon and your first encounter with Sabor, the game progresses whether you win or lose. The only difference is the cutscene that follows. As for Kingdom Hearts II, the forced fail scenarios usually center around the the characters fighting an invincible or perpetually regenerating opponent. The former is usually brief enough to prevent the player from wasting effort, health, or important items, before the encounter abruptly ends and the next cutscene makes it clear that you’re supposed to run. The latter goes on for a longer period of time, but usually it has a much more apparent purpose for the effort required to endure the encounter (which is usually keeping the opponent busy while waiting for help to arrive).
Water levels weren't that bad in Spyro games. Heck, I remember one water level where I wanted to return to it because I can move much better due to Spyro's charge attack.
First of all, great video. I would like to say some things about the segment from 2:53 to 3:26. In the Call of Duty 4 mission with the guys son, the mission is about capturing him to find out where his dad is. Of course shooting him in his car would result in a mission failure. He's no good to you dead, him committing suicide isn't your fault though. As for the battlefield 3 thing, I wouldn't consider it trying to rip off Halo Reach's ending simply because that wasn't the end, but the whole thing where they say they'll pick you up in 15 minutes is because your tank breaks down and they wouldn't just abandon them out there, at least I hope not. But this is still a great video and I'm glad you made it.
I dunno, I like boss rushes. Especially in games where you can't fight the boss again, like in Wind Waker. My first thought hen I got through Ganon's Tower was "Holy crap, I get to fight Gohma again, YES!"
I have to disagree with number 15. In most of the cases it wasn't a failure, and yes, dying in this exact point DOES make a difefrence. In No Russian, dying earlier wouldn't deliver the "message", it would look like a terrorist was killed by SWAT, while in Makarov's plan you had to be killed at the end, as a way to say "I know he's undercover and I know you want to find me". In the mission with Zakhayev's son you wanted him alive, why the hell would you kill him? Do you think that real special ops teams would kill someone they have to capture because he may kill himself before they get to him?
Then there's the fact that most forced loss battles in rpgs require you to, in a sense, defeat your opponent. In FF9, for example, only one of your battles with Beatrix is not a forced loss, and the rest, you get a game over if you don't hurt her enough to cause the forced loss. While it isn't likely you will beat them, certain one on one battles in the Namco Tales games may possibly be able to be beaten. I haven't really got the skill to test this, nor do I want to run around for a week leveling up as high as possible before taking these battles on. I think I managed to get Kratos or whatever his name is on Tales of Symphonia down to half hp on my first attempt at fighting him.
Hawkkiller2 I have played multiple Namco Tales games, and yes the one on one battles are beatable, but I have only been able to win the Luke vs Asch battle (the one before the ned of the game).
XIII Hearts The "ned of the game?" Is that when you take control of Asch for a time? If so, I got him down to half hp, but ran out of items. Otherwise, I'm not there yet.
I meant to say the end of the game. I am talking about just after you get to Yulia City, where Asch challenges you to a fight. These one on one fights are beatable.
XIII Hearts Eh? I just got to Yulia City and I just started playing as Asch. I understand you mean later in the game, but I find it odd you fight Asch twice at Yulia.
Beau Tatum Me too, the final part was tricky, but COME ON! I think the best quick time events are in sonic games where its like HOLD THESE TWO BUTTONS AND WATCH THE FIREWORKS
15: mashtooth from the legendary starfy. 14: WARGOYLE!!! 13: mashtooth again! 12: well the contract killer series (IOS) did it right! 11: well hollow bastion from re: coded did it right! 10: the legendary starfy used save points as checkpoints! 9: ss logwater from the legendary starfy! AWESOME WATER/ GHOST LEVEL!!! 8: mashtooth YET AGAIN! 7: don't forget! kid icarus uprising had NEW bosses in boss rush no. 2!
I like boss rushes when they're like, added content. An extra option you can pick from a menu for an extra challenge. I adore Okami, but God, I remember how tedious some of those fights were. And as a perfectionist... I had to complete everything.
To me, the worst is floaty enemies. One of the biggest offenders is my 2nd favorite video game franchise: Castlevania. I FUCKING LOVE THESE GAMES (for the most part) but seriously, they're infested with floating enemies. I'm looking at you, Medusa Heads.
+Jordan Williams Unfortunately, one cliché does apply to the Ace Attorney series: Forced Loss. Ace Attorney 1: Case four, trial 2 (I think) Trials & Tribulations: Case four... again.
I actually don't mind boss rushes (when they're done right, i'm looking at you devil may cry 4!), it shows me how stronger I've become (mostly in mega man games). but it's just my opinion.
Here's how to do boss rushes right games, look to Kingdom Hearts 2 Final Mix. In Final Mix, you get to access a special area called the Cavern of Remembrance. This is an optional part that you'll probably be doing when you're much higher levelled, enter around lvl 60-70. There are really good chests and stuff in the area itself, and the fights are hard but at the end is the one thing you were waiting for- The Garden of Assemblence (or however it's spelt). Here you get to fight harder versions of all the Organization 13 bosses from the game, but now they're harder. Now, not every game can be as fun as Kingdom Hearts 2, but there are really good things here: it's optional, but you want to do it because it's so fun! You can take it easy, do any boss in any order and come back when you feel like. All though it may not be a true boss rush, the point still stands: I should WANT to do boss rushes, not FORCED.
14:33 Clanker's Cavern from Banjo-Kazooie. You literally have to swim to the bottom of a deep pit, stay there for a while, while swimming through a key and you have a fish that delivers air bubble's for you to breathe, but he moves so slowly.
I've always seen boss rushes as a way of showing how far the player has come over the course of the game. Remember that one boss you struggled before? Well, now you can decimate him. That's just my take on it.
Seriously though, I love these countdowns. All of them. They're so much fun to watch and I (mostly) agree with what you say. Also quick time events is some of the best things I know since it changes the gameplay up but it can be horrific when it isn't done properly! Combine odd button mashing with obnoxious water physics, silly camera angles and over powered enemies and you've got yourself a nightmare. A stuck-on-the-same-level-forever-with-no-chances-of-progressing nightmare.
This might sound weird, but I think a mix of a boss rush and a forced loss scenario would be interesting. Like, the game keeps throwing tougher and tougher bosses at you until you lose, but you get experience and cool stuff for each one you kill.
@Kolozll Yeah, that was probably an oversight on their part. (Google+ I thought we fixed this) 6:32 - That's because Mario Party 1's button mashing gimmick was rotating the control stick...yeah, 'nuff said. 9:00 - Man...getting that characterization to work between all of them must've been extremely difficult...but it's definitely a lot more effective than doing the single deal. 11:10 - Another oversight...she had her powers when that happened. 12:07 - Ugh...Metroid Prime.
VladNorris No...what I was talking about is how Samus was able to use her Grapple Beam in order to escape the Darklings when she didn't do that. Wait...she didn't even use Grapple Beam in the first place.
The beginning battle of Paper Mario was nothing more than just an interactive part of the main story in which it shows that Mario was involved in the battle that he couldn't win and was impossible for him to win. It was a very important part of the story and it's difficult to see the game happen any other way.
Soul Calibur, KH2, Heavy Rain, Sonic the Fighters, Conker's Bad Fur Day, Pac Man World, Portal 2, EVEN NEOPETS: THE DARKEST FAEIRE. My god I love you three more and more every day. :3
The last link in the description is a very needed link. I'd say about 75% of my current high school (which, I admit is in a very... religious area to say the least) needs to look at this.
Does Dragon's Dogma's postgame count under the boss rush capcom offenders done right? i mean sure there's a shit-ton of bosses that are practically mandatory before you get to fight god, but they're either new or are some kind of variant (i.e. the wyrm, the archydra, the ur-dragon)... though admittedly some of the bosses can be... frustrating *looks at the dual cockatrice boss room*
i dont mind the boss rush in KH 2 where you have to fight the rest of the organization members before xemnas bc all of the bosses are good and challenging. if the boss rush is composed of bosses ive already fought THEN i dont like it.
"I have gotten burns from playing mario party" Yeah so has everyone else. You're not special. Everyone who plays mario party 1 gets blisters and burns from the stick rotation minigames
anybody else notice how at 9:01 where Josh says "Alex, number transition." that it sounds familiar to what TFS did on episode 37 of DBZ? I know this video was first, so maybe TFS members are fans of Josh, Alex and Chewie's work.
Fore Dymex you don’t need luck. Just use the Reaction command and the dance water dance sequences are very easy. Ore you summon stich which can instant kill all waterclons with his ukulele ( which normaly just paralyse enemies) . He use this random but also in his limit. You relay don’t need luck against this boss.
Number 14 is why I can no longer enjoy Pokemon games. I love them and they influenced my childhood and love for RPGs, but let me ask you this, Pokemon gamers: if you can already multiply the amount of damage dealt by your attacks up to 4X and as low as flat 0 depending on typing, on top of increasing damage by leveling up and boosting your stats, WHY. THE FUCK. DO CRITICAL HITS. EXIST? I dont hate the concept of critical hits entirely as there are plenty of games that do it right. Examples: DND: you need to roll a natural 20 when attacking and then have to confirm it to be a crit in order to deal damage FPS games: Land a shot to the target's head or manage to stab them in the back? Boom! Insta kill or critical damage! But pokemon? It is pure chance whether you get a crit or not, no matter what items, abilities, or attacks you use. Hell, considering the fact that ever since Emerald, the game has an AI that reads your tactics and strategies, forming teams specifically to beat your manuevers ((and yes, THAT is a legitimate thing)), and predicts when your Pokemon is no longer confused, asleep, or frozen, it makes critical hits ((especially ones in the battle frontier, where this cheating AI rules supreme)) the ticket to either the easiest win possible or the battle completely falling out of your control and resulting in a doomed loss, which results in your 48 streak to come crumbling down, it makes the BF the ultimate luck based game. And to add salt to injury, I guarantee you this is the order of when you got your own critical hits vs when your opponent got theirs without using odds boosting things. You: 63% - when a normal hit would've been more than enough to knock an enemy out 30% - when you were trying to catch a wild Pokemon you wanted, knocking it out accidentally 7% - to turn the tables and get a clutch win against the enemy Opponent: 60% - to Insta-KO your Pokemon and make a battle (almost or definitely) unwinnable 35% - at random times, not really changing things 5% - Other I've spent hundreds of hours on HG's BF, but due to critical hits (and cheating AI), I've never had a win streak greater than 40. I was raging so hard at one point, I broke my DS Lite in a fit. I was on a 40 win streak at the Battle Factory, carefully planning how to handle the next battle, but when a critical hit randomly knocked out my Metagross, my entire plan fell apart and I lost everything. I quit playing the games entirely because now I can no longer enjoy a battle without worrying about critical hits. I've lost so many battles and streaks to critical hits in HG alone, that they outnumber the number of times I beat the Pokemon league in all the games I played so far. I can't bring myself to playing a game, knowing that RNG can be what makes me either win a battle or lose a battle. Sure, I can just grind my Pokemon up and make them OP compared to their upcoming opponents, but that only worsens the case. Who knows, maybe I'm just doing something wrong and am failing because i don't know what my big mistakes are. However, I'm no longer playing Pokemon games because critical hits have soured the thrill of battles for me. I love them and I love how much they influenced me, but that will not stop me from turning my back on them because of this stupid luck based mechanic. Fuck the critical hit system in Pokemon.
On number 14 there is one other that I have experienced that wasn't on the showcase for that entry. The magic show guy from no more heroes. Now bare with me. You've been assigned a hit, you go to the theater, suddenly your part of the act but OOOH WAIT the magician is your opponent. Granted the inverting gravity while messing with the controls is bad and his ranged attacks are a pain but what really hits a home run on the rage meter is this: at points in the fight where his HP has dropped to 75%, 50% and 25% he vanishes, and stage lights sweep the floor, you are then put into a QuickTime event where you must BUTTON MASH your way out of a bomb box. Half the time the game DOES NOT REGISTER YOUR INPUT which makes you die and start the whole thing over!!!
5:57 You know, I used to laugh at that bit. The buildup with Mewtwo, the Dusk Ball rattling three times, and it looks like you've caught a Legendary...only for Mewtwo to obliterate the Dusk Ball and shatter all hope. But recently, I've been going after the Legendaries in Alpha Sapphire, I've been using every trick there is to get the right nature and best IVs. And even after managing to catch a given Pokemon, I've had to soft reset multiple times because something went wrong. So after all of that frustration...okay, I'm still laughing at this part. But man...guh...a lot of the humor is still lost...
It feels like you're just being way too picky about it... If a stat was altered in a way you didn't like, just EV train that particular stat to make it a bit better than it would have been (I did that for my Kingdra)...and as for IVs (which I consider to be absolutely worthless and fake), just wait until Sun and Moon for the Hyper Training (increases IVs) that's going to be included.
I think the only times I've seen a boss rush really work was a game were the bosses were the minions of the big bad you fight several times in the game, and the boss rush is finally killing each of them on your way to the final battle. That was done well. But yeah, normally I think Boss Rush is best reserved for an optional play mode.
I encountered several forced loss scenarios in one of my favoritea game series: Hyperdimension Neptunia. Specifically during the second game. You fight a super powerful boss, and he takes you out in 1 shot. Its only after you get a yuri fantasy CG image, you get your transformation and can win.
Quick question about number 7: would the mini-bosses from the end of Musashi: Samurai Legend count as a rush? Because If so, then I think that is an instance of it being done very right. I personally enjoyed those battles, and hear that many others do too.
For number 13, a great example would be the final phase of the final boss from Starfy. It makes you press the button so fast, it's almost impossible. I haven't beaten it to this day.
The Lufia series is famous for #15, though Lufia II's is barely a subversion because you can actually defeat the boss in question, but are then defeated in a cutscene. In fact, though it's optional and doesn't change the story, you have to defeat that boss to get one of the strongest weapons in the game: the Gades Blade.
Meant to add, you have something like eight boss rush fights in Maximum Carnage, including one RIGHT before Carnage himself who has like, oh... THREE ENTIRE LIFE GAGES?!? And then a FINAL FORM?!? Good GOD LJN, We get it already! YOU NEVER INTENDED US TO BEAT THE GAME!
Examples of when this is done well in a video game: 15: While I can't think of a specific example with an RPG you can just restart from the last save point if you're smart and saved before a big battle. 14: Mario party- maybe its just me but Mario party doesn't make me as angry as everyone else. 13: Bayonneta- Button mashing may be common in this game but it can be done quickly and its very satisfying. 12: Ive played several third person shooters and not once have I gotten a perfect headshot
Only decent? Dude, these guys do an AMAZING job with these videos! Each time I watch videos from these guys, they put a smile on my face. At the end of the day, that's what counts, right? Keep making videos, Burning Trinity!
I don't put the controller down during cutscenes. Hell, I NEVER put down the controller until I finish playing that specific game. As a result, I never miss a QTE, unless I'm distracted. Which happens on occasion.
15. Was pissed off playing Ni No Kuni and had a boss battle against Shadar where i almost had him dead while struggling through the annoying battle system and died, only to find out it was supposed to be an unwinnable boss battle, so i pretty much wasted a bunch of healing items and time trying to defeat him.
An unmentioned example of cover systems done right is in Far Cry 3, where you are actually in first person, so you don't have a clue when your enemy pokes his head out.
On number 14, when you guys said "I'm sure we've all faced this one boss that you have to pray to Lady Luck herself, that he doesn't use this one attack." For me, that one boss was in (The PS2 Version) Persona 4, the boss was Shadow Yukiko. Since the most offensive persona I had at this point was Chie's, which by the way, is weak to fire, this made it VERY hard. And the fact that I also had to fight the boss on that day, or else the fog would settle in, and I would get a game over, all that made this boss very hard. Until the PS Vita "Golden" remake which made her use her fire abilities on Chie, right after she killed Youske.
You mentioned Kingdom Hearts, Mass Effect 2, Arkham Asylum and KH2 during #15. I don't recall that particular type of situation appearing in the latter two games.
Boss rushes are one of my favorite parts of games. They're like a test of your abilities to show how strong you've become. Usually the bosses are easier than the first time you fought them because you've become stronger sense then except in Mega Man X5 where they GAVE THEM A HUGE HEALTH BOOST!! WHY?!?!?! DX
![Shin Megami Tensei V ~ Vengeance [CoC/CoV] - Trumpeter (Low Level, Hard)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dvEIETO9vZU/mqdefault.jpg)
"Bosses are a core concept of the game"
*shows Portal 2 boss battle*
I see what you did there...
-D-)
"The worst offender EVERY CAPCOM GAME EVER" oh yeah I love the boss rushes in phoenix wright ace attorney
+clay “claymaker” plane I cant believe those HEAVILY STORY DRIVEN GAMES were able to fit in such AMAZING boss rushes and still be enjoyable ;)
*My response @**6:46*
I really appreciate lists like these, as it gives me perspective when designing games. Avoiding things that players hate is one of the keys to making games that they like.
Or specifically including them with the goal of reminding others that these tropes can work if done right.
@@kevinmilhim646 How well do you think that's gonna work out? Not very well, I imagine... You remind me of the "not all men" halfwits...
5:12 - Not very often, but when it _does_ happen, I am _not_ happy.
I actually had my Zigzagoon do that to a Ralts that I wanted to capture in my latest run of Pokemon Emerald. (I keep a couple of Zigzagoons around since they have Pickup and are also semi-decent as far as early-game normal type Pokemon go.)
In the few battles after that one, that Zigzagoon picked up _two_ full heals. Of course, I couldn't stay mad. (Yeah, I get sentimental about my Pokemon, so what? Even though they're pretend animals in a video game, I still cherish them.)
Your profile pic makes me question the future of humanity.
Josh's reaction to the second Demyx battle is the same one I had when I had to keep fighting that loser over and over, getting more and more pissed off every time! Oh, and you can defeat Leon during the first encounter with him in Kingdom Hearts at Traverse Town. The only thing is that you lose out on getting an Elixir from him if you don't.
17:22 Get it? CORE CONCEPT?
Yeah I'll just go sit in the corner for a bit.
You’ll go sit in the COREner
"AH GOT BLISTERS ON MA FINGERS!" You said it... I'm looking at YOU Mario Party.
Also if anyone got the Beatles reference in that quote congrats
I've had to call my arcade era dad for help on multiple occasions due to rapid input sequences.
for number 7, Monster Hunter has an exception because the entire game is boss fights
Hendra Yulianto Which is forced to be done, what, 5 times? 5 boring quests to over 300 epic quests. Yeah, definitely not all about boss fights.
Same thing applies for Cuphead!
☕️
I still don't get why they played a clip of Skyward Sword while talking about mandatory boss rushes, since the boss rush in Skyward Sword was entirely optional!
It was required to not waste Ruppes every time your shield broke, or fully complete the game.
Fireork or... and hear me out on this, you git good and learn to shield bash at the correct time to keep your shield from taking damage.
323starlight And how do you expect people to become good at shield bashing WITHOUT going through trial and error? Also, wouldn’t 100% completion require you going through the boss rush?
"But it's so unrealistic. I mean...getting a perfect headshot! Without seeing him _at all_! The moment he pokes his head out..._That's stupid!_"
So are turn-based strategy and Rocket Jumping. No complaints to them.
***** Point made.
Yes!
That was more of a cheap jab. They really dislike them as a gameplay mechanic, as do I. They don't taint entire games but they're just so boring.
***** Because being a one man army, capable of withstanding inhuman amounts of damage isn't unrealistic and stupid?
Hairy Potter Unrealistic, yes. Stupid, no (unless they _aren't_ supposed to have superpowers).
15. I was never bothered by these.
14. I love and hate these.
13. I like these, but I know where you guys are coming from.
12. I don't encounter these, so no opinion.
11. I don't like these either.
10. Odd. I never found them as a problem.
9. Same as 12.
8. I'm fine with these.
7. I feel you guys...
*Ability loss:* This seems to work better in literature. When Chewie noted the loss of the Force, my first thought was "Ysalamiri?"
*Save points:* Then there are the I Wanna Be The games, where the difficulty level manifests as the total number of save points. And _Getting Over It_ (made four years after this video) is noted for a complete lack of save points, and even just before the end two slips in a row can completely reset the game if the second one lands you on the Snake.
They mentioned Neopets:The Darkest Faerie. I can die happy.
Doesn't this bring back memories? These guys should get back together someday.
And whatever happened to Chewie?
Kingdom Heart's fight with Leon wasn't a forced-loss scenario. Heck, one time I even ended up beating Leon, if not taking 3 potions with. The thing is, that isn't a forced loss scenario, since you CAN win it. Not saying everything else that has forced-loss scenarios is not trash, but ya know. :3
Silvah3466 lol I was just about to say that
Silvah3466 It's kind of forced-loss, since the outcome of the battle is the same whether you win or lose. Just because you aren't forced to lose against the boss themselves doesn't mean it's not a forced loss.
Like they said in the video, it's also when you beat the boss and then die (or pass out, or whatever) in the next cutscene.
I'd love to see this list get remade to reflect the industry nowadays (not to be mixed with business practices).
also it would be cool to see these guys collab again lol
Damn. I can't believe this came out before Pokemon X and Y.
Fun fact about the races in Banjo Tooie: If you mash the button just enough to stay directly behind Mary, you can tail her until the last third of the race, then rocket to the finish before she can catch up. Just like real competitive racing!
technically in kingdom hearts you CAN beat Leon
But regardless of weather you beat him or not, Sora gets knocked out in the following cut scene
that's just plot development.. point is.. you actually beat him.
Emme I legit beat him and when the cut scene happened I was thinking fuck did I messed up
Also u can lose to cloud the first time you fight him and the game will play another cutscene
The same outcome happens whether you win or lose against Leon. Odds are, you will lose (at least the first time) but it makes your future victory against him in the Pegasus Cup all the more satisfying. Plus, if you do beat him, you will later get an Elixir as a reward. The Cloud fight... you don't get anything special whether you win or lose, aside from EXP; it's more of a challenge to beat him the first time around, and, like with Leon, it makes your future victory against him in the Hercules Cup more satisfying. The fight against both of them in the Hades Cup isn't just Final Fanservice, but it's for the benefit of you cheering when you beat _both_ powerful swordsmen who beat you before.
When you take the Darkside in Dive to the Heart and the first fight with Sabor into account, it just goes to show that the developers knew when not to punish you for losing a tough fight early on, and it also shows that Sora is an inexperienced kid in way over his head but who has the inner strength to overcome anything.
Cover systems are fun though. Never sacrifice fun for realism
I think an fps cover system would be fun.
You know,realistically calculating your opponents movements,getting read to fire,and then peeking your head out when you think he's there instead of just sitting with your character in your camera and the people you are looking to kill being easy to spot when they pop out.
it can turn in cover combat into a full on stalemate when that happens.
Drakkoniac Dransen almost every first person shooter has cover you can crouch behind... though it almost never has a prompt or a "system"
leon2550 You ever played Medal of honor (allied assault trilogy)
Drakkoniac Dransen yes.
leon2550 you know how you used the shift button to hop in and out of cover? That's what I loved doing,expert rifle boy.
I would argue that Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts II handle the Forced Failure scenario relatively well.
In the first Kingdom Hearts, with both your first encounter with Leon and your first encounter with Sabor, the game progresses whether you win or lose. The only difference is the cutscene that follows.
As for Kingdom Hearts II, the forced fail scenarios usually center around the the characters fighting an invincible or perpetually regenerating opponent. The former is usually brief enough to prevent the player from wasting effort, health, or important items, before the encounter abruptly ends and the next cutscene makes it clear that you’re supposed to run.
The latter goes on for a longer period of time, but usually it has a much more apparent purpose for the effort required to endure the encounter (which is usually keeping the opponent busy while waiting for help to arrive).
every capcom game except ace attorney 18:08
Water levels weren't that bad in Spyro games. Heck, I remember one water level where I wanted to return to it because I can move much better due to Spyro's charge attack.
6:07 Remember getting your first turbo controller?
Who is feeling nostalgic for this video?
3:56
When does Force Unleashed use force failures? I played that game multiple times and I never got a forced failure!
Intergalactic Human Empire **cough** force unleased 2 **cough**
First of all, great video. I would like to say some things about the segment from 2:53 to 3:26. In the Call of Duty 4 mission with the guys son, the mission is about capturing him to find out where his dad is. Of course shooting him in his car would result in a mission failure. He's no good to you dead, him committing suicide isn't your fault though. As for the battlefield 3 thing, I wouldn't consider it trying to rip off Halo Reach's ending simply because that wasn't the end, but the whole thing where they say they'll pick you up in 15 minutes is because your tank breaks down and they wouldn't just abandon them out there, at least I hope not. But this is still a great video and I'm glad you made it.
I dunno, I like boss rushes. Especially in games where you can't fight the boss again, like in Wind Waker. My first thought hen I got through Ganon's Tower was "Holy crap, I get to fight Gohma again, YES!"
Glad -someone of- you mentioned Blue Dragon! ... Although it wasn't on a positive note... That game needs more love though!
Welp, I ended up here because clips of this video was used for a video about PS5 Pro pricing
I have to disagree with number 15. In most of the cases it wasn't a failure, and yes, dying in this exact point DOES make a difefrence. In No Russian, dying earlier wouldn't deliver the "message", it would look like a terrorist was killed by SWAT, while in Makarov's plan you had to be killed at the end, as a way to say "I know he's undercover and I know you want to find me". In the mission with Zakhayev's son you wanted him alive, why the hell would you kill him? Do you think that real special ops teams would kill someone they have to capture because he may kill himself before they get to him?
Then there's the fact that most forced loss battles in rpgs require you to, in a sense, defeat your opponent. In FF9, for example, only one of your battles with Beatrix is not a forced loss, and the rest, you get a game over if you don't hurt her enough to cause the forced loss.
While it isn't likely you will beat them, certain one on one battles in the Namco Tales games may possibly be able to be beaten. I haven't really got the skill to test this, nor do I want to run around for a week leveling up as high as possible before taking these battles on. I think I managed to get Kratos or whatever his name is on Tales of Symphonia down to half hp on my first attempt at fighting him.
Hawkkiller2 I have played multiple Namco Tales games, and yes the one on one battles are beatable, but I have only been able to win the Luke vs Asch battle (the one before the ned of the game).
XIII Hearts
The "ned of the game?" Is that when you take control of Asch for a time? If so, I got him down to half hp, but ran out of items.
Otherwise, I'm not there yet.
I meant to say the end of the game. I am talking about just after you get to Yulia City, where Asch challenges you to a fight. These one on one fights are beatable.
XIII Hearts
Eh? I just got to Yulia City and I just started playing as Asch. I understand you mean later in the game, but I find it odd you fight Asch twice at Yulia.
The one at sonic rush where you have to RAPIDLY TAP X AND Y AT THE SAME TIME FOR ABOUT 15 SECONDS AT THE END OF THE BLAZE BOSS FIGHT IS RIDICULOUS!!!
True, that was complete bullshit too.
Beau Tatum Me too, the final part was tricky, but COME ON! I think the best quick time events are in sonic games where its like HOLD THESE TWO BUTTONS AND WATCH THE FIREWORKS
Yes and no HELL NO
Yeah, you mean the godzilla game right?
Hi just letting you know this video morphed me into the person I am today from childhood, thanks!
Really. No time limits?
Forgot Crash Bandicoot: Ripto's Rage for rapid input sequences
I like Crash Bandicoot: Ripto's Rage, but I like the sequel, Jak & Daxter: Band of Lombaxes better.
ReakMayhem Go w/ my blessings
That triple let's get started thing scared the shit out of me
"Why are we killing water with fire?"
Well it worked with Demyx so shut up.
I think they mean at the beginning of mass effect 2 when you die
4 years later and this is still one of my favorite countdowns
15: mashtooth from the legendary starfy.
14: WARGOYLE!!!
13: mashtooth again!
12: well the contract killer series (IOS) did it right!
11: well hollow bastion from re: coded did it right!
10: the legendary starfy used save points as checkpoints!
9: ss logwater from the legendary starfy! AWESOME WATER/ GHOST LEVEL!!!
8: mashtooth YET AGAIN!
7: don't forget! kid icarus uprising had NEW bosses in boss rush no. 2!
Dance water, dance!
I like boss rushes when they're like, added content. An extra option you can pick from a menu for an extra challenge.
I adore Okami, but God, I remember how tedious some of those fights were. And as a perfectionist... I had to complete everything.
To me, the worst is floaty enemies. One of the biggest offenders is my 2nd favorite video game franchise: Castlevania. I FUCKING LOVE THESE GAMES (for the most part) but seriously, they're infested with floating enemies. I'm looking at you, Medusa Heads.
Sometimes it makes sence like diablo and other bosses In diablo 3 there Deamons and angels they can fly
Appaloosa Hill Yeah, but in platformers, they're the worst thing ever.
Number 7: Every Capcom game, huh? Clearly you haven't played the dead rising series.
Or the Ace Attorney series...
Or resident evil and street fighter
+Jordan Williams Unfortunately, one cliché does apply to the Ace Attorney series: Forced Loss.
Ace Attorney 1: Case four, trial 2 (I think)
Trials & Tribulations: Case four... again.
Au Ninja: Yeah but those are both flashback cases.
Metal Gear Rising does qtes really well because they're not easy to mess up cause you get a lot of time and a lot of time the qtes makes sense
i call bullshit. in mass effect 2 you dont have to die at the end. if you do everything right
I never died at the end of Mass Effect 2, i didn't even know you could die at the end. Guess i'm doing something right, then.
I believe they mean at the very beggining where you get fried and spaced.
Yea they meant at the start of the game, also yep the only way to die at the end of the game is if every single team member dies in the last mission
MisterX867 Or all but one.
The last person won't be able to pull you up, and you fall.
also in mass effect 2 you know that its a suicide mission and the game encourages your to upgrade the normandy and do loyalty missions
I actually don't mind boss rushes (when they're done right, i'm looking at you devil may cry 4!), it shows me how stronger I've become (mostly in mega man games). but it's just my opinion.
Here's how to do boss rushes right games, look to Kingdom Hearts 2 Final Mix. In Final Mix, you get to access a special area called the Cavern of Remembrance. This is an optional part that you'll probably be doing when you're much higher levelled, enter around lvl 60-70. There are really good chests and stuff in the area itself, and the fights are hard but at the end is the one thing you were waiting for- The Garden of Assemblence (or however it's spelt). Here you get to fight harder versions of all the Organization 13 bosses from the game, but now they're harder. Now, not every game can be as fun as Kingdom Hearts 2, but there are really good things here: it's optional, but you want to do it because it's so fun! You can take it easy, do any boss in any order and come back when you feel like. All though it may not be a true boss rush, the point still stands: I should WANT to do boss rushes, not FORCED.
Kirby's epic yarn had some good water levels
Whoa that was a nasty silence glare in Josh's voice during the button masher.
14:33 Clanker's Cavern from Banjo-Kazooie. You literally have to swim to the bottom of a deep pit, stay there for a while, while swimming through a key and you have a fish that delivers air bubble's for you to breathe, but he moves so slowly.
I've always seen boss rushes as a way of showing how far the player has come over the course of the game. Remember that one boss you struggled before? Well, now you can decimate him. That's just my take on it.
Seriously though, I love these countdowns. All of them. They're so much fun to watch and I (mostly) agree with what you say.
Also quick time events is some of the best things I know since it changes the gameplay up but it can be horrific when it isn't done properly! Combine odd button mashing with obnoxious water physics, silly camera angles and over powered enemies and you've got yourself a nightmare. A stuck-on-the-same-level-forever-with-no-chances-of-progressing nightmare.
I prefer a boss rush mode, rather than a boss rush in a story mode.
This might sound weird, but I think a mix of a boss rush and a forced loss scenario would be interesting. Like, the game keeps throwing tougher and tougher bosses at you until you lose, but you get experience and cool stuff for each one you kill.
@Kolozll Yeah, that was probably an oversight on their part. (Google+ I thought we fixed this)
6:32 - That's because Mario Party 1's button mashing gimmick was rotating the control stick...yeah, 'nuff said.
9:00 - Man...getting that characterization to work between all of them must've been extremely difficult...but it's definitely a lot more effective than doing the single deal.
11:10 - Another oversight...she had her powers when that happened.
12:07 - Ugh...Metroid Prime.
How is 11:10 an oversight?
The problem is how she lost her powers by an idiotic excuse.
VladNorris No...what I was talking about is how Samus was able to use her Grapple Beam in order to escape the Darklings when she didn't do that.
Wait...she didn't even use Grapple Beam in the first place.
In ALL New Super Mario Bros. games, there is an option to Quick Save outside of Save Points, but these Quick Saves disappear when you load them.
The beginning battle of Paper Mario was nothing more than just an interactive part of the main story in which it shows that Mario was involved in the battle that he couldn't win and was impossible for him to win. It was a very important part of the story and it's difficult to see the game happen any other way.
You guys brought up Kid Icarus Uprising a shit ton in this countdown for whatever reason. It's seriously what I remember from this video years later.
12:47
I’ve played that game too!
With a little retooling, I’d say it’s a legitimate hidden gem!
Man Josh has come a long way since then
I can't believe this video is old enough to be nostalgic
Soul Calibur, KH2, Heavy Rain, Sonic the Fighters, Conker's Bad Fur Day, Pac Man World, Portal 2, EVEN NEOPETS: THE DARKEST FAEIRE. My god I love you three more and more every day.
:3
The last link in the description is a very needed link. I'd say about 75% of my current high school (which, I admit is in a very... religious area to say the least) needs to look at this.
Does Dragon's Dogma's postgame count under the boss rush capcom offenders done right? i mean sure there's a shit-ton of bosses that are practically mandatory before you get to fight god, but they're either new or are some kind of variant (i.e. the wyrm, the archydra, the ur-dragon)... though admittedly some of the bosses can be... frustrating *looks at the dual cockatrice boss room*
And they hated him for he spoke the truth. RIP scrawny guy, you shall be missed.
The trinity videos are always entertaining...love the chemistry you all bring to the table
i dont mind the boss rush in KH 2 where you have to fight the rest of the organization members before xemnas bc all of the bosses are good and challenging.
if the boss rush is composed of bosses ive already fought THEN i dont like it.
"I have gotten burns from playing mario party"
Yeah so has everyone else. You're not special. Everyone who plays mario party 1 gets blisters and burns from the stick rotation minigames
anybody else notice how at 9:01 where Josh says "Alex, number transition." that it sounds familiar to what TFS did on episode 37 of DBZ? I know this video was first, so maybe TFS members are fans of Josh, Alex and Chewie's work.
Fore Dymex you don’t need luck. Just use the Reaction command and the dance water dance sequences are very easy. Ore you summon stich which can instant kill all waterclons with his ukulele ( which normaly just paralyse enemies) . He use this random but also in his limit. You relay don’t need luck against this boss.
Number 14 is why I can no longer enjoy Pokemon games.
I love them and they influenced my childhood and love for RPGs, but let me ask you this, Pokemon gamers: if you can already multiply the amount of damage dealt by your attacks up to 4X and as low as flat 0 depending on typing, on top of increasing damage by leveling up and boosting your stats, WHY. THE FUCK. DO CRITICAL HITS. EXIST?
I dont hate the concept of critical hits entirely as there are plenty of games that do it right.
Examples:
DND: you need to roll a natural 20 when attacking and then have to confirm it to be a crit in order to deal damage
FPS games: Land a shot to the target's head or manage to stab them in the back? Boom! Insta kill or critical damage!
But pokemon? It is pure chance whether you get a crit or not, no matter what items, abilities, or attacks you use. Hell, considering the fact that ever since Emerald, the game has an AI that reads your tactics and strategies, forming teams specifically to beat your manuevers ((and yes, THAT is a legitimate thing)), and predicts when your Pokemon is no longer confused, asleep, or frozen, it makes critical hits ((especially ones in the battle frontier, where this cheating AI rules supreme)) the ticket to either the easiest win possible or the battle completely falling out of your control and resulting in a doomed loss, which results in your 48 streak to come crumbling down, it makes the BF the ultimate luck based game. And to add salt to injury, I guarantee you this is the order of when you got your own critical hits vs when your opponent got theirs without using odds boosting things.
You:
63% - when a normal hit would've been more than enough to knock an enemy out
30% - when you were trying to catch a wild Pokemon you wanted, knocking it out accidentally
7% - to turn the tables and get a clutch win against the enemy
Opponent:
60% - to Insta-KO your Pokemon and make a battle (almost or definitely) unwinnable
35% - at random times, not really changing things
5% - Other
I've spent hundreds of hours on HG's BF, but due to critical hits (and cheating AI), I've never had a win streak greater than 40. I was raging so hard at one point, I broke my DS Lite in a fit. I was on a 40 win streak at the Battle Factory, carefully planning how to handle the next battle, but when a critical hit randomly knocked out my Metagross, my entire plan fell apart and I lost everything.
I quit playing the games entirely because now I can no longer enjoy a battle without worrying about critical hits. I've lost so many battles and streaks to critical hits in HG alone, that they outnumber the number of times I beat the Pokemon league in all the games I played so far. I can't bring myself to playing a game, knowing that RNG can be what makes me either win a battle or lose a battle. Sure, I can just grind my Pokemon up and make them OP compared to their upcoming opponents, but that only worsens the case. Who knows, maybe I'm just doing something wrong and am failing because i don't know what my big mistakes are. However, I'm no longer playing Pokemon games because critical hits have soured the thrill of battles for me. I love them and I love how much they influenced me, but that will not stop me from turning my back on them because of this stupid luck based mechanic.
Fuck the critical hit system in Pokemon.
Man I've seen this video atleast 10 times now, but I remember this video being much older than just 3 years
Nice final fantasy 6 music during the save point segment. That's precisely the game I was thinking of when you said save points.
On number 14 there is one other that I have experienced that wasn't on the showcase for that entry. The magic show guy from no more heroes. Now bare with me. You've been assigned a hit, you go to the theater, suddenly your part of the act but OOOH WAIT the magician is your opponent. Granted the inverting gravity while messing with the controls is bad and his ranged attacks are a pain but what really hits a home run on the rage meter is this: at points in the fight where his HP has dropped to 75%, 50% and 25% he vanishes, and stage lights sweep the floor, you are then put into a QuickTime event where you must BUTTON MASH your way out of a bomb box. Half the time the game DOES NOT REGISTER YOUR INPUT which makes you die and start the whole thing over!!!
The little girl NPC who always has the "Find my dolly" quest.
The 'Saving Private Ryan' style Shell shock parts that they now put in every WW2 FPS.
5:57 You know, I used to laugh at that bit. The buildup with Mewtwo, the Dusk Ball rattling three times, and it looks like you've caught a Legendary...only for Mewtwo to obliterate the Dusk Ball and shatter all hope. But recently, I've been going after the Legendaries in Alpha Sapphire, I've been using every trick there is to get the right nature and best IVs. And even after managing to catch a given Pokemon, I've had to soft reset multiple times because something went wrong.
So after all of that frustration...okay, I'm still laughing at this part. But man...guh...a lot of the humor is still lost...
It feels like you're just being way too picky about it... If a stat was altered in a way you didn't like, just EV train that particular stat to make it a bit better than it would have been (I did that for my Kingdra)...and as for IVs (which I consider to be absolutely worthless and fake), just wait until Sun and Moon for the Hyper Training (increases IVs) that's going to be included.
Burraku Dusk I hadn't heard about IV training at the time.
I think the only times I've seen a boss rush really work was a game were the bosses were the minions of the big bad you fight several times in the game, and the boss rush is finally killing each of them on your way to the final battle. That was done well. But yeah, normally I think Boss Rush is best reserved for an optional play mode.
I encountered several forced loss scenarios in one of my favoritea game series: Hyperdimension Neptunia. Specifically during the second game. You fight a super powerful boss, and he takes you out in 1 shot. Its only after you get a yuri fantasy CG image, you get your transformation and can win.
Quick question about number 7: would the mini-bosses from the end of Musashi: Samurai Legend count as a rush? Because If so, then I think that is an instance of it being done very right. I personally enjoyed those battles, and hear that many others do too.
9:01
I miss this running gag in media, and it never gets old. 😂
You guys forgot the microwave scene in MGS4 for #13. Probably the most intense button mashin I've ever done
The only luck-based event I have a hard time with is when I have to replay Egg Defender in Angry Birds.
For number 13, a great example would be the final phase of the final boss from Starfy. It makes you press the button so fast, it's almost impossible. I haven't beaten it to this day.
The Lufia series is famous for #15, though Lufia II's is barely a subversion because you can actually defeat the boss in question, but are then defeated in a cutscene. In fact, though it's optional and doesn't change the story, you have to defeat that boss to get one of the strongest weapons in the game: the Gades Blade.
You showed like 2 seconds of starfy play and I still feel nostalgic
Meant to add, you have something like eight boss rush fights in Maximum Carnage, including one RIGHT before Carnage himself who has like, oh... THREE ENTIRE LIFE GAGES?!? And then a FINAL FORM?!? Good GOD LJN, We get it already! YOU NEVER INTENDED US TO BEAT THE GAME!
Examples of when this is done well in a video game:
15: While I can't think of a specific example with an RPG you can just restart from the last save point if you're smart and saved before a big battle.
14: Mario party- maybe its just me but Mario party doesn't make me as angry as everyone else.
13: Bayonneta- Button mashing may be common in this game but it can be done quickly and its very satisfying.
12: Ive played several third person shooters and not once have I gotten a perfect headshot
Only decent? Dude, these guys do an AMAZING job with these videos! Each time I watch videos from these guys, they put a smile on my face. At the end of the day, that's what counts, right? Keep making videos, Burning Trinity!
What's the name of that sick track that starts at 0:13? Been scrolling through comments but haven't found an answer.
I don't put the controller down during cutscenes. Hell, I NEVER put down the controller until I finish playing that specific game. As a result, I never miss a QTE, unless I'm distracted. Which happens on occasion.
15. Was pissed off playing Ni No Kuni and had a boss battle against Shadar where i almost had him dead while struggling through the annoying battle system and died, only to find out it was supposed to be an unwinnable boss battle, so i pretty much wasted a bunch of healing items and time trying to defeat him.
An unmentioned example of cover systems done right is in Far Cry 3, where you are actually in first person, so you don't have a clue when your enemy pokes his head out.
What oh what is the song at around 13:15? Driving me nuts because I recognize it yet I don't.
On number 14, when you guys said "I'm sure we've all faced this one boss that you have to pray to Lady Luck herself, that he doesn't use this one attack." For me, that one boss was in (The PS2 Version) Persona 4, the boss was Shadow Yukiko. Since the most offensive persona I had at this point was Chie's, which by the way, is weak to fire, this made it VERY hard. And the fact that I also had to fight the boss on that day, or else the fog would settle in, and I would get a game over, all that made this boss very hard. Until the PS Vita "Golden" remake which made her use her fire abilities on Chie, right after she killed Youske.
I honestly want to see these guys together again (not literally, of course).
You mentioned Kingdom Hearts, Mass Effect 2, Arkham Asylum and KH2 during #15. I don't recall that particular type of situation appearing in the latter two games.
"Chaos Theater," "Burning Trinity"
You guys sure do come up with some cool names.
Boss rushes are one of my favorite parts of games. They're like a test of your abilities to show how strong you've become. Usually the bosses are easier than the first time you fought them because you've become stronger sense then except in Mega Man X5 where they GAVE THEM A HUGE HEALTH BOOST!! WHY?!?!?! DX
I actually LOVE boss rushes. The feeling of taking down every boss at once is exhilarating!