I really appreciate lists like these, as it gives me perspective when designing games. Avoiding things that players hate is one of the keys to making games that they like.
"But it's so unrealistic. I mean...getting a perfect headshot! Without seeing him _at all_! The moment he pokes his head out..._That's stupid!_" So are turn-based strategy and Rocket Jumping. No complaints to them.
15. I was never bothered by these. 14. I love and hate these. 13. I like these, but I know where you guys are coming from. 12. I don't encounter these, so no opinion. 11. I don't like these either. 10. Odd. I never found them as a problem. 9. Same as 12. 8. I'm fine with these. 7. I feel you guys...
*Ability loss:* This seems to work better in literature. When Chewie noted the loss of the Force, my first thought was "Ysalamiri?" *Save points:* Then there are the I Wanna Be The games, where the difficulty level manifests as the total number of save points. And _Getting Over It_ (made four years after this video) is noted for a complete lack of save points, and even just before the end two slips in a row can completely reset the game if the second one lands you on the Snake.
5:12 - Not very often, but when it _does_ happen, I am _not_ happy. I actually had my Zigzagoon do that to a Ralts that I wanted to capture in my latest run of Pokemon Emerald. (I keep a couple of Zigzagoons around since they have Pickup and are also semi-decent as far as early-game normal type Pokemon go.) In the few battles after that one, that Zigzagoon picked up _two_ full heals. Of course, I couldn't stay mad. (Yeah, I get sentimental about my Pokemon, so what? Even though they're pretend animals in a video game, I still cherish them.)
Josh's reaction to the second Demyx battle is the same one I had when I had to keep fighting that loser over and over, getting more and more pissed off every time! Oh, and you can defeat Leon during the first encounter with him in Kingdom Hearts at Traverse Town. The only thing is that you lose out on getting an Elixir from him if you don't.
The same outcome happens whether you win or lose against Leon. Odds are, you will lose (at least the first time) but it makes your future victory against him in the Pegasus Cup all the more satisfying. Plus, if you do beat him, you will later get an Elixir as a reward. The Cloud fight... you don't get anything special whether you win or lose, aside from EXP; it's more of a challenge to beat him the first time around, and, like with Leon, it makes your future victory against him in the Hercules Cup more satisfying. The fight against both of them in the Hades Cup isn't just Final Fanservice, but it's for the benefit of you cheering when you beat _both_ powerful swordsmen who beat you before. When you take the Darkside in Dive to the Heart and the first fight with Sabor into account, it just goes to show that the developers knew when not to punish you for losing a tough fight early on, and it also shows that Sora is an inexperienced kid in way over his head but who has the inner strength to overcome anything.
Kingdom Heart's fight with Leon wasn't a forced-loss scenario. Heck, one time I even ended up beating Leon, if not taking 3 potions with. The thing is, that isn't a forced loss scenario, since you CAN win it. Not saying everything else that has forced-loss scenarios is not trash, but ya know. :3
Silvah3466 It's kind of forced-loss, since the outcome of the battle is the same whether you win or lose. Just because you aren't forced to lose against the boss themselves doesn't mean it's not a forced loss. Like they said in the video, it's also when you beat the boss and then die (or pass out, or whatever) in the next cutscene.
I still don't get why they played a clip of Skyward Sword while talking about mandatory boss rushes, since the boss rush in Skyward Sword was entirely optional!
323starlight And how do you expect people to become good at shield bashing WITHOUT going through trial and error? Also, wouldn’t 100% completion require you going through the boss rush?
I think an fps cover system would be fun. You know,realistically calculating your opponents movements,getting read to fire,and then peeking your head out when you think he's there instead of just sitting with your character in your camera and the people you are looking to kill being easy to spot when they pop out. it can turn in cover combat into a full on stalemate when that happens.
***** I understand what you're getting to, but I catch all of my Pokemon in pokeballs for aesthetic reasons, and I caught Yveltal with my second pokeball at full health.
I wouldn't play Assassin's creed if I didn't like the main mechanic. I hate AC3 because it removed the blending in aspect for more stealth like game play. Same principles apply here. If you don't like the game play, you aren't having fun. If you aren't having fun, then how can you like the game to begin with?
I think one of the few good examples of ability loss is in Zero Mission when they take away your suit. It doesn't drag on, and it is very scary to crawl through the Space Pirate ship until you get back your suit. And getting back your suit feels GOOD. You don't have to hide anymore. I loved how they put the section together.
Water levels weren't that bad in Spyro games. Heck, I remember one water level where I wanted to return to it because I can move much better due to Spyro's charge attack.
I would argue that Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts II handle the Forced Failure scenario relatively well. In the first Kingdom Hearts, with both your first encounter with Leon and your first encounter with Sabor, the game progresses whether you win or lose. The only difference is the cutscene that follows. As for Kingdom Hearts II, the forced fail scenarios usually center around the the characters fighting an invincible or perpetually regenerating opponent. The former is usually brief enough to prevent the player from wasting effort, health, or important items, before the encounter abruptly ends and the next cutscene makes it clear that you’re supposed to run. The latter goes on for a longer period of time, but usually it has a much more apparent purpose for the effort required to endure the encounter (which is usually keeping the opponent busy while waiting for help to arrive).
I have to disagree with number 15. In most of the cases it wasn't a failure, and yes, dying in this exact point DOES make a difefrence. In No Russian, dying earlier wouldn't deliver the "message", it would look like a terrorist was killed by SWAT, while in Makarov's plan you had to be killed at the end, as a way to say "I know he's undercover and I know you want to find me". In the mission with Zakhayev's son you wanted him alive, why the hell would you kill him? Do you think that real special ops teams would kill someone they have to capture because he may kill himself before they get to him?
Then there's the fact that most forced loss battles in rpgs require you to, in a sense, defeat your opponent. In FF9, for example, only one of your battles with Beatrix is not a forced loss, and the rest, you get a game over if you don't hurt her enough to cause the forced loss. While it isn't likely you will beat them, certain one on one battles in the Namco Tales games may possibly be able to be beaten. I haven't really got the skill to test this, nor do I want to run around for a week leveling up as high as possible before taking these battles on. I think I managed to get Kratos or whatever his name is on Tales of Symphonia down to half hp on my first attempt at fighting him.
Hawkkiller2 I have played multiple Namco Tales games, and yes the one on one battles are beatable, but I have only been able to win the Luke vs Asch battle (the one before the ned of the game).
XIII Hearts The "ned of the game?" Is that when you take control of Asch for a time? If so, I got him down to half hp, but ran out of items. Otherwise, I'm not there yet.
I meant to say the end of the game. I am talking about just after you get to Yulia City, where Asch challenges you to a fight. These one on one fights are beatable.
XIII Hearts Eh? I just got to Yulia City and I just started playing as Asch. I understand you mean later in the game, but I find it odd you fight Asch twice at Yulia.
Fun fact about the races in Banjo Tooie: If you mash the button just enough to stay directly behind Mary, you can tail her until the last third of the race, then rocket to the finish before she can catch up. Just like real competitive racing!
I dunno, I like boss rushes. Especially in games where you can't fight the boss again, like in Wind Waker. My first thought hen I got through Ganon's Tower was "Holy crap, I get to fight Gohma again, YES!"
Beau Tatum Me too, the final part was tricky, but COME ON! I think the best quick time events are in sonic games where its like HOLD THESE TWO BUTTONS AND WATCH THE FIREWORKS
+Jordan Williams Unfortunately, one cliché does apply to the Ace Attorney series: Forced Loss. Ace Attorney 1: Case four, trial 2 (I think) Trials & Tribulations: Case four... again.
15: mashtooth from the legendary starfy. 14: WARGOYLE!!! 13: mashtooth again! 12: well the contract killer series (IOS) did it right! 11: well hollow bastion from re: coded did it right! 10: the legendary starfy used save points as checkpoints! 9: ss logwater from the legendary starfy! AWESOME WATER/ GHOST LEVEL!!! 8: mashtooth YET AGAIN! 7: don't forget! kid icarus uprising had NEW bosses in boss rush no. 2!
First of all, great video. I would like to say some things about the segment from 2:53 to 3:26. In the Call of Duty 4 mission with the guys son, the mission is about capturing him to find out where his dad is. Of course shooting him in his car would result in a mission failure. He's no good to you dead, him committing suicide isn't your fault though. As for the battlefield 3 thing, I wouldn't consider it trying to rip off Halo Reach's ending simply because that wasn't the end, but the whole thing where they say they'll pick you up in 15 minutes is because your tank breaks down and they wouldn't just abandon them out there, at least I hope not. But this is still a great video and I'm glad you made it.
To me, the worst is floaty enemies. One of the biggest offenders is my 2nd favorite video game franchise: Castlevania. I FUCKING LOVE THESE GAMES (for the most part) but seriously, they're infested with floating enemies. I'm looking at you, Medusa Heads.
A lot of people say that you have to fight Orochi 3 times in Okami is crazy... well if you 100% the game you technically have to fight the spider queen 5 times...
I've always seen boss rushes as a way of showing how far the player has come over the course of the game. Remember that one boss you struggled before? Well, now you can decimate him. That's just my take on it.
Here's how to do boss rushes right games, look to Kingdom Hearts 2 Final Mix. In Final Mix, you get to access a special area called the Cavern of Remembrance. This is an optional part that you'll probably be doing when you're much higher levelled, enter around lvl 60-70. There are really good chests and stuff in the area itself, and the fights are hard but at the end is the one thing you were waiting for- The Garden of Assemblence (or however it's spelt). Here you get to fight harder versions of all the Organization 13 bosses from the game, but now they're harder. Now, not every game can be as fun as Kingdom Hearts 2, but there are really good things here: it's optional, but you want to do it because it's so fun! You can take it easy, do any boss in any order and come back when you feel like. All though it may not be a true boss rush, the point still stands: I should WANT to do boss rushes, not FORCED.
Meant to add, you have something like eight boss rush fights in Maximum Carnage, including one RIGHT before Carnage himself who has like, oh... THREE ENTIRE LIFE GAGES?!? And then a FINAL FORM?!? Good GOD LJN, We get it already! YOU NEVER INTENDED US TO BEAT THE GAME!
I like boss rushes when they're like, added content. An extra option you can pick from a menu for an extra challenge. I adore Okami, but God, I remember how tedious some of those fights were. And as a perfectionist... I had to complete everything.
Boss rushes are only used as a refresher course for the player. If the final boss is everything you learned throughout the game. Then the boss rush is there in case you have a bad memory or ADHD.
Number 14: once again Ni No Kuni and its bootleg Pokemon mechanic. Taming famials is entirely luck based and you have to hope once you finally have the opportunity to tame a familiar, you party members don't do a special attack, completely ruining your opportunity
Soul Calibur, KH2, Heavy Rain, Sonic the Fighters, Conker's Bad Fur Day, Pac Man World, Portal 2, EVEN NEOPETS: THE DARKEST FAEIRE. My god I love you three more and more every day. :3
In any game in which bosses don't take weeks to defeat, I like them. They server as an indication for how much your power has grown since your last battle, and it's satisfying to rip through former challenges with ease. Also, boss rushes are fun when the bosses themselves are fun. You can stop dissing them now.
The OG Spyro trilogy has better uses of water levels. They don’t slow the character down, the enemies aren’t faster, and it adds to the fun of collecting as someone who completes 3D Platformers.
Fore Dymex you don’t need luck. Just use the Reaction command and the dance water dance sequences are very easy. Ore you summon stich which can instant kill all waterclons with his ukulele ( which normaly just paralyse enemies) . He use this random but also in his limit. You relay don’t need luck against this boss.
This might sound weird, but I think a mix of a boss rush and a forced loss scenario would be interesting. Like, the game keeps throwing tougher and tougher bosses at you until you lose, but you get experience and cool stuff for each one you kill.
"I have gotten burns from playing mario party" Yeah so has everyone else. You're not special. Everyone who plays mario party 1 gets blisters and burns from the stick rotation minigames
The Lufia series is famous for #15, though Lufia II's is barely a subversion because you can actually defeat the boss in question, but are then defeated in a cutscene. In fact, though it's optional and doesn't change the story, you have to defeat that boss to get one of the strongest weapons in the game: the Gades Blade.
Okami does ability loss well in my opinion. Because you start getting them back immediately, and you get a chance to use every ability you get back to defeat Yami. Actually, you use EVERY BRUSH TECHNIQUE IN THE GAME! That's actually pretty awesome. However, I do find the fact that you have to defeat every long boss in the game AGAIN, quite annoying. I enjoyed the boss fights, so it was just annoying.
In Battlefield 3, your supposed to want to fight, maybe not for 15 minutes, but it makes you want to fight. The only problem is the soldier that ends up capturing you is an enemy that runs toward the tank, but he is invincible, which left me keep replaying thinking it was a glitch.
15. Was pissed off playing Ni No Kuni and had a boss battle against Shadar where i almost had him dead while struggling through the annoying battle system and died, only to find out it was supposed to be an unwinnable boss battle, so i pretty much wasted a bunch of healing items and time trying to defeat him.
Boss rushes are one of my favorite parts of games. They're like a test of your abilities to show how strong you've become. Usually the bosses are easier than the first time you fought them because you've become stronger sense then except in Mega Man X5 where they GAVE THEM A HUGE HEALTH BOOST!! WHY?!?!?! DX
An unmentioned example of cover systems done right is in Far Cry 3, where you are actually in first person, so you don't have a clue when your enemy pokes his head out.
Examples of when this is done well in a video game: 15: While I can't think of a specific example with an RPG you can just restart from the last save point if you're smart and saved before a big battle. 14: Mario party- maybe its just me but Mario party doesn't make me as angry as everyone else. 13: Bayonneta- Button mashing may be common in this game but it can be done quickly and its very satisfying. 12: Ive played several third person shooters and not once have I gotten a perfect headshot
The beginning battle of Paper Mario was nothing more than just an interactive part of the main story in which it shows that Mario was involved in the battle that he couldn't win and was impossible for him to win. It was a very important part of the story and it's difficult to see the game happen any other way.
I hate it when the Game forces you to win a Boss Fight, only for the player character to lose in a cutscene. It’s just waisted effort and it’s annoying if you don’t automatically get healed afterwards, especially if you get too an incredibly low health before defeating the enemy.
*pokeball shakes once* Burning Trio: yes! *pokeball shakes a second time* Burning Trio: Yes! *pokeball shakes a third time* Burning Trio: YES! *Mewtwo gets out* *Autarch is missingNo, Josh is the Blue Screen of Death, and chewie is the color screen*
As for quick-time events, Star Wars the Force Unleashed is a terrible defender of this, as for there is an overlong string of them in every boss fight, are mandatory for completing the boss fight, and if you mess up at any point, you have to go through that string of them all over again.
To be fair about Kingdom Hearts, you CAN win the fight vs Leon (and get an elixir for it, which is pretty strong for so early in the game.) It's not even a particularly tough fight if you power leveled on Destiny Islands - sure, he hits hard, but his hp is rather low and you can often avoid even having to use a potion.
15: I agree. 14: I ALSO AGREE VERY MUCH 13: I actually kinda like these. If it isn't completely based on mashing. But a single click is cool. 12: I don't like FPS games as a whole, so yeah. 11: I Agree 10: Is this really enough to call it a Cliche? Anyways, I totally agree, ESPECIALLY THE GREAT GREAT MAZE >:( 9: I kinda liked these levels. 8: Kinda true :/ 7: Yeah, they're lazy, but can be a mini reminder or fun.
14:33 Clanker's Cavern from Banjo-Kazooie. You literally have to swim to the bottom of a deep pit, stay there for a while, while swimming through a key and you have a fish that delivers air bubble's for you to breathe, but he moves so slowly.
@Kolozll Yeah, that was probably an oversight on their part. (Google+ I thought we fixed this) 6:32 - That's because Mario Party 1's button mashing gimmick was rotating the control stick...yeah, 'nuff said. 9:00 - Man...getting that characterization to work between all of them must've been extremely difficult...but it's definitely a lot more effective than doing the single deal. 11:10 - Another oversight...she had her powers when that happened. 12:07 - Ugh...Metroid Prime.
VladNorris No...what I was talking about is how Samus was able to use her Grapple Beam in order to escape the Darklings when she didn't do that. Wait...she didn't even use Grapple Beam in the first place.
"But it's so unrealistic. I mean getting a perfect headshot, without seeing him at all! The moment he pokes his head out...That's stupid!" Coming from the guy who loves Call of Duty, that isn't selling your point very well. Also, "The ones (cliches) that want to make you turn off the game in disgust _as soon as you see them_"? Why say that if you're constantly pointing out examples of these cliches done right? If you're gonna do that, why not instead call this "Top 15 Cliches Done Wrong"?
I have some examples for some of these. Bad Button Mashing: 75 percent of Eddy and Christie players from Tekken Bad Water Levels: Crasher Wake's Gym from Pokemon Platinum (My Opinion) Bad QTE: Wonderful 101 Bad Luck-Based Events: Five Nights at Freddy's 1 and 2 Ultimate Custom Nights
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I've had a blast with every water level I've played and was never stumped throughout the Zelda franchise. Keep in mind I had no walkthrough at the time. Call me Dumbface in the comments if you had trouble with them. Call me a BadAss if you didn't.
For the Canary Mary races, her speed is based off of how fast you go, so just let her be barely ahead the whole time and then at the very end get ahead of her.
I think the only times I've seen a boss rush really work was a game were the bosses were the minions of the big bad you fight several times in the game, and the boss rush is finally killing each of them on your way to the final battle. That was done well. But yeah, normally I think Boss Rush is best reserved for an optional play mode.
(This is actually Liams Brother) In where these cliches are done right, you'll love the legend of Spyro Dawn of the Dragon. The quicktime events only happen during gameplay, they give you plenty of time (at least two seconds or more) to get ready to press a button. And the rabid input sequences are very short and easy. You encounter the golem more than once because it hasn't died yet. After you've actually killed the golem once you don't have to kill the golem again. All the cliches in this game are done right. I highly recommend picking it up because it is an awesome game, and surprisingly it's not overrated. Hardly anyone talks about it. They always tok about the original version or the skylanders version which totally ruined the characters by making them look red eyed and evil looking. In the Legend of Spyro however, they looked downright intelligent, and acted and talked far more heroic. You hardly ever see any game where you play as any character that walks on four feet. Sure you play Okami, but the first cutscene is so long you get bored and it is almost at its end right before you turn the game off. Cutscenes are not supposed to be forty-five minutes long. You want to start a new LP? PLAY DAWN OF THE DRAGON! I hope Stephen Plays it with Mallory. That game would be awesome for them. They planned to make a movie for the Legend of Spyro, but it was canceled years ago.
Hey guys, some people like boss rushes for other reasons. As the Green Scorpion explained in his Top 10 Tropes in Gaming list, the reason boss rushes work is because it gives the player a sense of power when they finish. Think about that why don't ya?
There's also Bayonetta, where it's only sort-of a boss rush, since the Virtues you face are significantly weaker (and are fought differently) than the original battles.
+DeathGodRiku I think they mean the prologue, where the Normandy is destroyed and Shepard is killed when the mission is finished. That's the only one I can think of, anyway.
+DeathGodRiku if fuck up enough before and during the suicide mission you can get that ending to get it you need to forget certain upgrades and not gain the loyalty of certain crew members oh and make the wrong calls
15. Haven't dealt with it ever. EVER. 14. AAAAAAUGH, YES! I HATE THIS SH1T! IN POKEMON ESPECIALLY! 13. Sonic Rush did this to me, yup. To win those segments, I ended up having to turn my DS so the A and B buttons were directly in front of me, and mash them with both of my index fingers at rapidfire. I'm still surprised those two buttons still work after 8 years of owning my DS and that game and playing it. 12. No cover systems for me, thank you. 11. Ooh, this would piss me off to no end if I ever play one of these... 10. Brawl's Subspace Emissary pissed me off the most with this. Took me three days to finally navigate the damn thing (thank you map) and it took me ages to find the save points. 9. Find Sig in Underport made me scream in agony for days because of its design and the fact that the oxygen alert was barely audible. Give the Sonic series credit, at least the music turned freaking SCARY and blasted when you started drowning... 8. Sonic Rush did this to me in addition to the button mashing. Unleashed actually tied them in pretty well (come at me!) 7. Would the Elite Four count as a boss rush? Also, again, SUBSPACE EMISSARY!
"Bosses are a core concept of the game"
*shows Portal 2 boss battle*
I see what you did there...
-D-)
"The worst offender EVERY CAPCOM GAME EVER" oh yeah I love the boss rushes in phoenix wright ace attorney
+clay “claymaker” plane I cant believe those HEAVILY STORY DRIVEN GAMES were able to fit in such AMAZING boss rushes and still be enjoyable ;)
*My response @**6:46*
I really appreciate lists like these, as it gives me perspective when designing games. Avoiding things that players hate is one of the keys to making games that they like.
Or specifically including them with the goal of reminding others that these tropes can work if done right.
@@kevinmilhim646 How well do you think that's gonna work out? Not very well, I imagine... You remind me of the "not all men" halfwits...
17:22 Get it? CORE CONCEPT?
Yeah I'll just go sit in the corner for a bit.
You’ll go sit in the COREner
for number 7, Monster Hunter has an exception because the entire game is boss fights
Hendra Yulianto Which is forced to be done, what, 5 times? 5 boring quests to over 300 epic quests. Yeah, definitely not all about boss fights.
Same thing applies for Cuphead!
☕️
"AH GOT BLISTERS ON MA FINGERS!" You said it... I'm looking at YOU Mario Party.
Also if anyone got the Beatles reference in that quote congrats
"But it's so unrealistic. I mean...getting a perfect headshot! Without seeing him _at all_! The moment he pokes his head out..._That's stupid!_"
So are turn-based strategy and Rocket Jumping. No complaints to them.
***** Point made.
Yes!
That was more of a cheap jab. They really dislike them as a gameplay mechanic, as do I. They don't taint entire games but they're just so boring.
***** Because being a one man army, capable of withstanding inhuman amounts of damage isn't unrealistic and stupid?
Hairy Potter Unrealistic, yes. Stupid, no (unless they _aren't_ supposed to have superpowers).
15. I was never bothered by these.
14. I love and hate these.
13. I like these, but I know where you guys are coming from.
12. I don't encounter these, so no opinion.
11. I don't like these either.
10. Odd. I never found them as a problem.
9. Same as 12.
8. I'm fine with these.
7. I feel you guys...
*Ability loss:* This seems to work better in literature. When Chewie noted the loss of the Force, my first thought was "Ysalamiri?"
*Save points:* Then there are the I Wanna Be The games, where the difficulty level manifests as the total number of save points. And _Getting Over It_ (made four years after this video) is noted for a complete lack of save points, and even just before the end two slips in a row can completely reset the game if the second one lands you on the Snake.
5:12 - Not very often, but when it _does_ happen, I am _not_ happy.
I actually had my Zigzagoon do that to a Ralts that I wanted to capture in my latest run of Pokemon Emerald. (I keep a couple of Zigzagoons around since they have Pickup and are also semi-decent as far as early-game normal type Pokemon go.)
In the few battles after that one, that Zigzagoon picked up _two_ full heals. Of course, I couldn't stay mad. (Yeah, I get sentimental about my Pokemon, so what? Even though they're pretend animals in a video game, I still cherish them.)
Your profile pic makes me question the future of humanity.
Josh's reaction to the second Demyx battle is the same one I had when I had to keep fighting that loser over and over, getting more and more pissed off every time! Oh, and you can defeat Leon during the first encounter with him in Kingdom Hearts at Traverse Town. The only thing is that you lose out on getting an Elixir from him if you don't.
I've had to call my arcade era dad for help on multiple occasions due to rapid input sequences.
technically in kingdom hearts you CAN beat Leon
But regardless of weather you beat him or not, Sora gets knocked out in the following cut scene
that's just plot development.. point is.. you actually beat him.
Emme I legit beat him and when the cut scene happened I was thinking fuck did I messed up
Also u can lose to cloud the first time you fight him and the game will play another cutscene
The same outcome happens whether you win or lose against Leon. Odds are, you will lose (at least the first time) but it makes your future victory against him in the Pegasus Cup all the more satisfying. Plus, if you do beat him, you will later get an Elixir as a reward. The Cloud fight... you don't get anything special whether you win or lose, aside from EXP; it's more of a challenge to beat him the first time around, and, like with Leon, it makes your future victory against him in the Hercules Cup more satisfying. The fight against both of them in the Hades Cup isn't just Final Fanservice, but it's for the benefit of you cheering when you beat _both_ powerful swordsmen who beat you before.
When you take the Darkside in Dive to the Heart and the first fight with Sabor into account, it just goes to show that the developers knew when not to punish you for losing a tough fight early on, and it also shows that Sora is an inexperienced kid in way over his head but who has the inner strength to overcome anything.
Kingdom Heart's fight with Leon wasn't a forced-loss scenario. Heck, one time I even ended up beating Leon, if not taking 3 potions with. The thing is, that isn't a forced loss scenario, since you CAN win it. Not saying everything else that has forced-loss scenarios is not trash, but ya know. :3
Silvah3466 lol I was just about to say that
Silvah3466 It's kind of forced-loss, since the outcome of the battle is the same whether you win or lose. Just because you aren't forced to lose against the boss themselves doesn't mean it's not a forced loss.
Like they said in the video, it's also when you beat the boss and then die (or pass out, or whatever) in the next cutscene.
I still don't get why they played a clip of Skyward Sword while talking about mandatory boss rushes, since the boss rush in Skyward Sword was entirely optional!
It was required to not waste Ruppes every time your shield broke, or fully complete the game.
Fireork or... and hear me out on this, you git good and learn to shield bash at the correct time to keep your shield from taking damage.
323starlight And how do you expect people to become good at shield bashing WITHOUT going through trial and error? Also, wouldn’t 100% completion require you going through the boss rush?
Cover systems are fun though. Never sacrifice fun for realism
I think an fps cover system would be fun.
You know,realistically calculating your opponents movements,getting read to fire,and then peeking your head out when you think he's there instead of just sitting with your character in your camera and the people you are looking to kill being easy to spot when they pop out.
it can turn in cover combat into a full on stalemate when that happens.
Drakkoniac Dransen almost every first person shooter has cover you can crouch behind... though it almost never has a prompt or a "system"
leon2550 You ever played Medal of honor (allied assault trilogy)
Drakkoniac Dransen yes.
leon2550 you know how you used the shift button to hop in and out of cover? That's what I loved doing,expert rifle boy.
They mentioned Neopets:The Darkest Faerie. I can die happy.
Doesn't this bring back memories? These guys should get back together someday.
And whatever happened to Chewie?
every capcom game except ace attorney 18:08
Damn. I can't believe this came out before Pokemon X and Y.
How can you like Pokemon if you hate the core mechanic?
Indeed.
***** I understand what you're getting to, but I catch all of my Pokemon in pokeballs for aesthetic reasons, and I caught Yveltal with my second pokeball at full health.
I don't even play pokemon
I wouldn't play Assassin's creed if I didn't like the main mechanic. I hate AC3 because it removed the blending in aspect for more stealth like game play. Same principles apply here. If you don't like the game play, you aren't having fun. If you aren't having fun, then how can you like the game to begin with?
TheMechanicalReaper Did you like AC4
Who is feeling nostalgic for this video?
I think one of the few good examples of ability loss is in Zero Mission when they take away your suit. It doesn't drag on, and it is very scary to crawl through the Space Pirate ship until you get back your suit. And getting back your suit feels GOOD. You don't have to hide anymore. I loved how they put the section together.
Water levels weren't that bad in Spyro games. Heck, I remember one water level where I wanted to return to it because I can move much better due to Spyro's charge attack.
I would argue that Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts II handle the Forced Failure scenario relatively well.
In the first Kingdom Hearts, with both your first encounter with Leon and your first encounter with Sabor, the game progresses whether you win or lose. The only difference is the cutscene that follows.
As for Kingdom Hearts II, the forced fail scenarios usually center around the the characters fighting an invincible or perpetually regenerating opponent. The former is usually brief enough to prevent the player from wasting effort, health, or important items, before the encounter abruptly ends and the next cutscene makes it clear that you’re supposed to run.
The latter goes on for a longer period of time, but usually it has a much more apparent purpose for the effort required to endure the encounter (which is usually keeping the opponent busy while waiting for help to arrive).
I have to disagree with number 15. In most of the cases it wasn't a failure, and yes, dying in this exact point DOES make a difefrence. In No Russian, dying earlier wouldn't deliver the "message", it would look like a terrorist was killed by SWAT, while in Makarov's plan you had to be killed at the end, as a way to say "I know he's undercover and I know you want to find me". In the mission with Zakhayev's son you wanted him alive, why the hell would you kill him? Do you think that real special ops teams would kill someone they have to capture because he may kill himself before they get to him?
Then there's the fact that most forced loss battles in rpgs require you to, in a sense, defeat your opponent. In FF9, for example, only one of your battles with Beatrix is not a forced loss, and the rest, you get a game over if you don't hurt her enough to cause the forced loss.
While it isn't likely you will beat them, certain one on one battles in the Namco Tales games may possibly be able to be beaten. I haven't really got the skill to test this, nor do I want to run around for a week leveling up as high as possible before taking these battles on. I think I managed to get Kratos or whatever his name is on Tales of Symphonia down to half hp on my first attempt at fighting him.
Hawkkiller2 I have played multiple Namco Tales games, and yes the one on one battles are beatable, but I have only been able to win the Luke vs Asch battle (the one before the ned of the game).
XIII Hearts
The "ned of the game?" Is that when you take control of Asch for a time? If so, I got him down to half hp, but ran out of items.
Otherwise, I'm not there yet.
I meant to say the end of the game. I am talking about just after you get to Yulia City, where Asch challenges you to a fight. These one on one fights are beatable.
XIII Hearts
Eh? I just got to Yulia City and I just started playing as Asch. I understand you mean later in the game, but I find it odd you fight Asch twice at Yulia.
"Why are we killing water with fire?"
Well it worked with Demyx so shut up.
Metal Gear Rising does qtes really well because they're not easy to mess up cause you get a lot of time and a lot of time the qtes makes sense
I'd love to see this list get remade to reflect the industry nowadays (not to be mixed with business practices).
also it would be cool to see these guys collab again lol
Glad -someone of- you mentioned Blue Dragon! ... Although it wasn't on a positive note... That game needs more love though!
Fun fact about the races in Banjo Tooie: If you mash the button just enough to stay directly behind Mary, you can tail her until the last third of the race, then rocket to the finish before she can catch up. Just like real competitive racing!
3:56
When does Force Unleashed use force failures? I played that game multiple times and I never got a forced failure!
Intergalactic Human Empire **cough** force unleased 2 **cough**
I dunno, I like boss rushes. Especially in games where you can't fight the boss again, like in Wind Waker. My first thought hen I got through Ganon's Tower was "Holy crap, I get to fight Gohma again, YES!"
4 years later and this is still one of my favorite countdowns
The one at sonic rush where you have to RAPIDLY TAP X AND Y AT THE SAME TIME FOR ABOUT 15 SECONDS AT THE END OF THE BLAZE BOSS FIGHT IS RIDICULOUS!!!
True, that was complete bullshit too.
Beau Tatum Me too, the final part was tricky, but COME ON! I think the best quick time events are in sonic games where its like HOLD THESE TWO BUTTONS AND WATCH THE FIREWORKS
Yes and no HELL NO
Yeah, you mean the godzilla game right?
Number 7: Every Capcom game, huh? Clearly you haven't played the dead rising series.
Or the Ace Attorney series...
Or resident evil and street fighter
+Jordan Williams Unfortunately, one cliché does apply to the Ace Attorney series: Forced Loss.
Ace Attorney 1: Case four, trial 2 (I think)
Trials & Tribulations: Case four... again.
Au Ninja: Yeah but those are both flashback cases.
In ALL New Super Mario Bros. games, there is an option to Quick Save outside of Save Points, but these Quick Saves disappear when you load them.
15: mashtooth from the legendary starfy.
14: WARGOYLE!!!
13: mashtooth again!
12: well the contract killer series (IOS) did it right!
11: well hollow bastion from re: coded did it right!
10: the legendary starfy used save points as checkpoints!
9: ss logwater from the legendary starfy! AWESOME WATER/ GHOST LEVEL!!!
8: mashtooth YET AGAIN!
7: don't forget! kid icarus uprising had NEW bosses in boss rush no. 2!
Really. No time limits?
First of all, great video. I would like to say some things about the segment from 2:53 to 3:26. In the Call of Duty 4 mission with the guys son, the mission is about capturing him to find out where his dad is. Of course shooting him in his car would result in a mission failure. He's no good to you dead, him committing suicide isn't your fault though. As for the battlefield 3 thing, I wouldn't consider it trying to rip off Halo Reach's ending simply because that wasn't the end, but the whole thing where they say they'll pick you up in 15 minutes is because your tank breaks down and they wouldn't just abandon them out there, at least I hope not. But this is still a great video and I'm glad you made it.
Dance water, dance!
To me, the worst is floaty enemies. One of the biggest offenders is my 2nd favorite video game franchise: Castlevania. I FUCKING LOVE THESE GAMES (for the most part) but seriously, they're infested with floating enemies. I'm looking at you, Medusa Heads.
Sometimes it makes sence like diablo and other bosses In diablo 3 there Deamons and angels they can fly
Appaloosa Hill Yeah, but in platformers, they're the worst thing ever.
A lot of people say that you have to fight Orochi 3 times in Okami is crazy... well if you 100% the game you technically have to fight the spider queen 5 times...
Forgot Crash Bandicoot: Ripto's Rage for rapid input sequences
I like Crash Bandicoot: Ripto's Rage, but I like the sequel, Jak & Daxter: Band of Lombaxes better.
ReakMayhem Go w/ my blessings
I think they mean at the beginning of mass effect 2 when you die
That triple let's get started thing scared the shit out of me
i call bullshit. in mass effect 2 you dont have to die at the end. if you do everything right
I never died at the end of Mass Effect 2, i didn't even know you could die at the end. Guess i'm doing something right, then.
I believe they mean at the very beggining where you get fried and spaced.
Yea they meant at the start of the game, also yep the only way to die at the end of the game is if every single team member dies in the last mission
MisterX867 Or all but one.
The last person won't be able to pull you up, and you fall.
also in mass effect 2 you know that its a suicide mission and the game encourages your to upgrade the normandy and do loyalty missions
I've always seen boss rushes as a way of showing how far the player has come over the course of the game. Remember that one boss you struggled before? Well, now you can decimate him. That's just my take on it.
Here's how to do boss rushes right games, look to Kingdom Hearts 2 Final Mix. In Final Mix, you get to access a special area called the Cavern of Remembrance. This is an optional part that you'll probably be doing when you're much higher levelled, enter around lvl 60-70. There are really good chests and stuff in the area itself, and the fights are hard but at the end is the one thing you were waiting for- The Garden of Assemblence (or however it's spelt). Here you get to fight harder versions of all the Organization 13 bosses from the game, but now they're harder. Now, not every game can be as fun as Kingdom Hearts 2, but there are really good things here: it's optional, but you want to do it because it's so fun! You can take it easy, do any boss in any order and come back when you feel like. All though it may not be a true boss rush, the point still stands: I should WANT to do boss rushes, not FORCED.
"Bosses are a core concept of the game"
*shows Portal 2 boss battle*
Me: I see what you did there…clever 😏
Meant to add, you have something like eight boss rush fights in Maximum Carnage, including one RIGHT before Carnage himself who has like, oh... THREE ENTIRE LIFE GAGES?!? And then a FINAL FORM?!? Good GOD LJN, We get it already! YOU NEVER INTENDED US TO BEAT THE GAME!
I like boss rushes when they're like, added content. An extra option you can pick from a menu for an extra challenge.
I adore Okami, but God, I remember how tedious some of those fights were. And as a perfectionist... I had to complete everything.
Boss rushes are only used as a refresher course for the player. If the final boss is everything you learned throughout the game. Then the boss rush is there in case you have a bad memory or ADHD.
Number 14: once again Ni No Kuni and its bootleg Pokemon mechanic. Taming famials is entirely luck based and you have to hope once you finally have the opportunity to tame a familiar, you party members don't do a special attack, completely ruining your opportunity
Soul Calibur, KH2, Heavy Rain, Sonic the Fighters, Conker's Bad Fur Day, Pac Man World, Portal 2, EVEN NEOPETS: THE DARKEST FAEIRE. My god I love you three more and more every day.
:3
In any game in which bosses don't take weeks to defeat, I like them. They server as an indication for how much your power has grown since your last battle, and it's satisfying to rip through former challenges with ease. Also, boss rushes are fun when the bosses themselves are fun. You can stop dissing them now.
Chewie says it at 1:06
Number 15 begs to differ. I never knew The Force Unleashed had one. It can be used for good, then it could be used in a rpg way...
Hi just letting you know this video morphed me into the person I am today from childhood, thanks!
The OG Spyro trilogy has better uses of water levels. They don’t slow the character down, the enemies aren’t faster, and it adds to the fun of collecting as someone who completes 3D Platformers.
Chewie had it coming with taking a dig at both Dynasty Warriors and the U.S. Marines.
Fore Dymex you don’t need luck. Just use the Reaction command and the dance water dance sequences are very easy. Ore you summon stich which can instant kill all waterclons with his ukulele ( which normaly just paralyse enemies) . He use this random but also in his limit. You relay don’t need luck against this boss.
This might sound weird, but I think a mix of a boss rush and a forced loss scenario would be interesting. Like, the game keeps throwing tougher and tougher bosses at you until you lose, but you get experience and cool stuff for each one you kill.
"I have gotten burns from playing mario party"
Yeah so has everyone else. You're not special. Everyone who plays mario party 1 gets blisters and burns from the stick rotation minigames
The Lufia series is famous for #15, though Lufia II's is barely a subversion because you can actually defeat the boss in question, but are then defeated in a cutscene. In fact, though it's optional and doesn't change the story, you have to defeat that boss to get one of the strongest weapons in the game: the Gades Blade.
Okami does ability loss well in my opinion. Because you start getting them back immediately, and you get a chance to use every ability you get back to defeat Yami. Actually, you use EVERY BRUSH TECHNIQUE IN THE GAME! That's actually pretty awesome.
However, I do find the fact that you have to defeat every long boss in the game AGAIN, quite annoying. I enjoyed the boss fights, so it was just annoying.
In Battlefield 3, your supposed to want to fight, maybe not for 15 minutes, but it makes you want to fight. The only problem is the soldier that ends up capturing you is an enemy that runs toward the tank, but he is invincible, which left me keep replaying thinking it was a glitch.
The only luck-based event I have a hard time with is when I have to replay Egg Defender in Angry Birds.
15. Was pissed off playing Ni No Kuni and had a boss battle against Shadar where i almost had him dead while struggling through the annoying battle system and died, only to find out it was supposed to be an unwinnable boss battle, so i pretty much wasted a bunch of healing items and time trying to defeat him.
Boss rushes are one of my favorite parts of games. They're like a test of your abilities to show how strong you've become. Usually the bosses are easier than the first time you fought them because you've become stronger sense then except in Mega Man X5 where they GAVE THEM A HUGE HEALTH BOOST!! WHY?!?!?! DX
An unmentioned example of cover systems done right is in Far Cry 3, where you are actually in first person, so you don't have a clue when your enemy pokes his head out.
Examples of when this is done well in a video game:
15: While I can't think of a specific example with an RPG you can just restart from the last save point if you're smart and saved before a big battle.
14: Mario party- maybe its just me but Mario party doesn't make me as angry as everyone else.
13: Bayonneta- Button mashing may be common in this game but it can be done quickly and its very satisfying.
12: Ive played several third person shooters and not once have I gotten a perfect headshot
The beginning battle of Paper Mario was nothing more than just an interactive part of the main story in which it shows that Mario was involved in the battle that he couldn't win and was impossible for him to win. It was a very important part of the story and it's difficult to see the game happen any other way.
I hate it when the Game forces you to win a Boss Fight, only for the player character to lose in a cutscene. It’s just waisted effort and it’s annoying if you don’t automatically get healed afterwards, especially if you get too an incredibly low health before defeating the enemy.
*pokeball shakes once*
Burning Trio: yes!
*pokeball shakes a second time*
Burning Trio: Yes!
*pokeball shakes a third time*
Burning Trio: YES!
*Mewtwo gets out*
*Autarch is missingNo, Josh is the Blue Screen of Death, and chewie is the color screen*
As for quick-time events, Star Wars the Force Unleashed is a terrible defender of this, as for there is an overlong string of them in every boss fight, are mandatory for completing the boss fight, and if you mess up at any point, you have to go through that string of them all over again.
Gradius boss rushes were very fun. They're short yet fairly challenging... with the exception of Gradius 3 Arcade!
To be fair about Kingdom Hearts, you CAN win the fight vs Leon (and get an elixir for it, which is pretty strong for so early in the game.) It's not even a particularly tough fight if you power leveled on Destiny Islands - sure, he hits hard, but his hp is rather low and you can often avoid even having to use a potion.
15: I agree.
14: I ALSO AGREE VERY MUCH
13: I actually kinda like these. If it isn't completely based on mashing. But a single click is cool.
12: I don't like FPS games as a whole, so yeah.
11: I Agree
10: Is this really enough to call it a Cliche? Anyways, I totally agree, ESPECIALLY THE GREAT GREAT MAZE >:(
9: I kinda liked these levels.
8: Kinda true :/
7: Yeah, they're lazy, but can be a mini reminder or fun.
You guys forgot the microwave scene in MGS4 for #13. Probably the most intense button mashin I've ever done
14:33 Clanker's Cavern from Banjo-Kazooie. You literally have to swim to the bottom of a deep pit, stay there for a while, while swimming through a key and you have a fish that delivers air bubble's for you to breathe, but he moves so slowly.
@Kolozll Yeah, that was probably an oversight on their part. (Google+ I thought we fixed this)
6:32 - That's because Mario Party 1's button mashing gimmick was rotating the control stick...yeah, 'nuff said.
9:00 - Man...getting that characterization to work between all of them must've been extremely difficult...but it's definitely a lot more effective than doing the single deal.
11:10 - Another oversight...she had her powers when that happened.
12:07 - Ugh...Metroid Prime.
How is 11:10 an oversight?
The problem is how she lost her powers by an idiotic excuse.
VladNorris No...what I was talking about is how Samus was able to use her Grapple Beam in order to escape the Darklings when she didn't do that.
Wait...she didn't even use Grapple Beam in the first place.
3 things on this list I dont mind. 1: Cover systems. 2: QTE'S. 3: Boss rush's.
The little girl NPC who always has the "Find my dolly" quest.
The 'Saving Private Ryan' style Shell shock parts that they now put in every WW2 FPS.
And they hated him for he spoke the truth. RIP scrawny guy, you shall be missed.
"But it's so unrealistic. I mean getting a perfect headshot, without seeing him at all! The moment he pokes his head out...That's stupid!"
Coming from the guy who loves Call of Duty, that isn't selling your point very well.
Also, "The ones (cliches) that want to make you turn off the game in disgust _as soon as you see them_"? Why say that if you're constantly pointing out examples of these cliches done right? If you're gonna do that, why not instead call this "Top 15 Cliches Done Wrong"?
Arkham Assylum? Seriously? You never "die" in AS, the scene where Joker shoots Batman is merely a Scarecrow's-poison-induced state of delirium.
I have some examples for some of these.
Bad Button Mashing: 75 percent of Eddy and Christie players from Tekken
Bad Water Levels: Crasher Wake's Gym from Pokemon Platinum (My Opinion)
Bad QTE: Wonderful 101
Bad Luck-Based Events: Five Nights at Freddy's 1 and 2 Ultimate Custom Nights
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I've had a blast with every water level I've played and was never stumped throughout the Zelda franchise. Keep in mind I had no walkthrough at the time. Call me Dumbface in the comments if you had trouble with them. Call me a BadAss if you didn't.
For the Canary Mary races, her speed is based off of how fast you go, so just let her be barely ahead the whole time and then at the very end get ahead of her.
forced failure is supposed to spur additional hate which drives the story
I think the only times I've seen a boss rush really work was a game were the bosses were the minions of the big bad you fight several times in the game, and the boss rush is finally killing each of them on your way to the final battle. That was done well. But yeah, normally I think Boss Rush is best reserved for an optional play mode.
When I fought Demyx from KH 2 the very first time, I prayed to God that he would not use his "Dance water dance" ability
(This is actually Liams Brother)
In where these cliches are done right, you'll love the legend of Spyro Dawn of the Dragon. The quicktime events only happen during gameplay, they give you plenty of time (at least two seconds or more) to get ready to press a button. And the rabid input sequences are very short and easy.
You encounter the golem more than once because it hasn't died yet. After you've actually killed the golem once you don't have to kill the golem again. All the cliches in this game are done right.
I highly recommend picking it up because it is an awesome game, and surprisingly it's not overrated. Hardly anyone talks about it. They always tok about the original version or the skylanders version which totally ruined the characters by making them look red eyed and evil looking. In the Legend of Spyro however, they looked downright intelligent, and acted and talked far more heroic.
You hardly ever see any game where you play as any character that walks on four feet. Sure you play Okami, but the first cutscene is so long you get bored and it is almost at its end right before you turn the game off. Cutscenes are not supposed to be forty-five minutes long. You want to start a new LP? PLAY DAWN OF THE DRAGON! I hope Stephen Plays it with Mallory. That game would be awesome for them. They planned to make a movie for the Legend of Spyro, but it was canceled years ago.
The boss rushes aren't that bad.... when you can actually decide when to do one like in the Sonic Adventure games
Ima just go meander over to the snack cabinet and casually stroll back.
Hey guys, some people like boss rushes for other reasons. As the Green Scorpion explained in his Top 10 Tropes in Gaming list, the reason boss rushes work is because it gives the player a sense of power when they finish. Think about that why don't ya?
There's also Bayonetta, where it's only sort-of a boss rush, since the Virtues you face are significantly weaker (and are fought differently) than the original battles.
Forced loss scenario in ME2? Uh what mission are you talking about? I always survive with everyone in that game
+DeathGodRiku I think they mean the prologue, where the Normandy is destroyed and Shepard is killed when the mission is finished. That's the only one I can think of, anyway.
So why did they show the Suicide Mission?
+DeathGodRiku if fuck up enough before and during the suicide mission you can get that ending to get it you need to forget certain upgrades and not gain the loyalty of certain crew members oh and make the wrong calls
I tried button mashing in Hyrule Warriors. I was only allowed to get away with it on the easiest difficulty level.
Hence why "IT'S NOT A BUTTONMASHER!!"
Whoa that was a nasty silence glare in Josh's voice during the button masher.
15. Haven't dealt with it ever. EVER.
14. AAAAAAUGH, YES! I HATE THIS SH1T! IN POKEMON ESPECIALLY!
13. Sonic Rush did this to me, yup. To win those segments, I ended up having to turn my DS so the A and B buttons were directly in front of me, and mash them with both of my index fingers at rapidfire. I'm still surprised those two buttons still work after 8 years of owning my DS and that game and playing it.
12. No cover systems for me, thank you.
11. Ooh, this would piss me off to no end if I ever play one of these...
10. Brawl's Subspace Emissary pissed me off the most with this. Took me three days to finally navigate the damn thing (thank you map) and it took me ages to find the save points.
9. Find Sig in Underport made me scream in agony for days because of its design and the fact that the oxygen alert was barely audible. Give the Sonic series credit, at least the music turned freaking SCARY and blasted when you started drowning...
8. Sonic Rush did this to me in addition to the button mashing. Unleashed actually tied them in pretty well (come at me!)
7. Would the Elite Four count as a boss rush? Also, again, SUBSPACE EMISSARY!