Found a paper to back this up: S.K. Sharma, C.K. Jotshi and Suniti Kumar, Thermochimica Acta 1991, 184, 9-23. Your estimation seems to be pretty accurate! I wonder why all the home chemistry procedures tell you to heat until it melts again, which would correspond to over 300 °C (and certain decomposition). Good video!
Doesn't the charring happen when there's sugars that weren't removed from the vinegar? Meaning if it's decently pure sodium acetate, then the charring won't happen - Or is that not the case? Does pure sodium acetate char when it gets too hot in the oven?
For what it's worth, I've made Acetic acid from home made sodium acetate as well as purchased lab grade anhydrous sodium acetate. The home made was dried following Doug's method. It came out lumpy so I pulverized it in a blender. The residual sugar became obvious when I combined it with Sulfuric acid and distilled off the acetic acid- lots of foaming and flakes of carbon indicating sugars from the vinegar and almost foamed into the still head, but dropping the heating mantle with the lab jack averted a big mess. When using the lab grade the reaction proceeded smoothly. My current batch of sodium acetate I've boiled down in a large enamelware pot until a crust starts to form on top. I let it cool then collect the solids and rinse quickly with ice cold water. My rinse water goes back into the pot and I repeat the evaporation, collection, and rinsing procedure. By the third time the remaining liquid has taken on the appearance of warm maple syrup, which I discard. Now, when drying, it powders and fluffs up nicely with a much smoother reaction with sulfuric acid when making acetic acid
I wonder if you used a closed box with two openings that had a hair dryer or heat gun fitted in one, and a flap to act like a bellows on the other one (so when the air is cut off, the hole is closed up to avoid moist air from getting back inside) I am looking at doing something similar to this to dehydrate ABS filament for printing on the fly instead of oven drying the filament first then it slowly getting water absorbed into it as it is sitting on the spindle being spooled off into the extruder of the printer.
Could you use a microwave to drive out any water? Or would the radiation from the microwave affect the final product? Or even convert it back to sodium (bi)carbonate
You don't have adequate temperature control with a microwave. You will get local hot spots and decomposition. The point of using an oven is to maintain a uniform temperature without exceeding the desired dehydration temperature. Temperature controlled ovens replaced the need for a drying pistol (q.v.). A convection oven with an internal circulating fan will give better results than a conventional still air oven. An electric oven equipped with a thermocouple PID controller will give more precise temperature control than a conventional kitchen oven.
@@dpasek1 The temperature control handles itself. Sodium acetate absorbs very little microwave radiation, it's only the water that's actually heated by it. Anhydrous sodium acetate barely warms in a microwave so it's actually pretty much ideal for drying it.
@@EddieTheH Are you actually doing it that way without damaging your microwave? I'll just keep using my thermostatically controlled oven so I don't have to keep an eye on it. I also prefer to roll the material in aluminum foil for ease of handling.
That is too much manual effort. I set my lab oven to the appropriate temperature and come back later when it is convenient. The difference in energy consumption is worth much less than my time. Also, I can wrap the stuff in an aluminum foil boat to reduce handling hassle.
I did almost exactly the same thing with MgSO4 (Epsom Salt). I used steel cookie pans. I use it as a drying agent, to remove water from DCM I distill from paint stripper, then water to remove methanol. (You used K2CO3, just as good). It seems to work to make anhydrous EtOH, too.
@@kobold7763 I know a lot of time has passed now, but many anti-spatter sprays for welding still use DCM. It always struck me as a bit mental as it can produce phosgene when heated.
That would get the top portion faster but that liquid is saturated with sodium acetate. It's water too must be driven off and still more powder will form in top if it. Maybe a series of meshes could eliminate the need for stirring at all? Crystals to the top tray and powder forms in four or five?
Sorry I'm a bit late here. Most anhydrous salts will dry out your skin. If your ingredient list recorded sodium acetate then it almost certainly meant the try-hydrate form, not the anhydrous form being made from that in this video
Yes, this is when it decomposes, releasing its water from the crystal structure of the hydrated compound, allowing the water to evaporate leaving the anhydrous form.
On the subject of dehydration. Magnesium nitrate ___hydrate can be actually be dehydrated using a vacuum pump and some heat . Which is contrary to what wikipedia says. Yea, i should cite my source but....
Agreed. I just dry it in the microwave, seems pretty near impossible to overheat that way as the trihydrate absorbs the microwaves whereas the anhydrous sodium acetate is largely transparent to them.
Sodium acetate trihydrate decomposes at 58 C. In a 150 C oven there is no way it will stay that cool. What's fascinating is that the solution that the powder is floating on top of is saturated with the anhydrous form too! If the liquid is carefully cooled this strange form will be maintained, though supersaturated. Introducing a bit of trihydrate will crystalize the solution to back to trihydrate and some heat.
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Found a paper to back this up: S.K. Sharma, C.K. Jotshi and Suniti Kumar, Thermochimica Acta 1991, 184, 9-23. Your estimation seems to be pretty accurate! I wonder why all the home chemistry procedures tell you to heat until it melts again, which would correspond to over 300 °C (and certain decomposition). Good video!
I smell a future acetic anhydride preparation.
HClO3 Chem You have an excellent sense of smell!
Doug's Lab Interesting , hope it come soon ;)
I wouldn't sniff that...
Cooking with Doug
nice इनफार्मेशन है
Doesn't the charring happen when there's sugars that weren't removed from the vinegar? Meaning if it's decently pure sodium acetate, then the charring won't happen - Or is that not the case? Does pure sodium acetate char when it gets too hot in the oven?
For what it's worth, I've made Acetic acid from home made sodium acetate as well as purchased lab grade anhydrous sodium acetate. The home made was dried following Doug's method. It came out lumpy so I pulverized it in a blender. The residual sugar became obvious when I combined it with Sulfuric acid and distilled off the acetic acid- lots of foaming and flakes of carbon indicating sugars from the vinegar and almost foamed into the still head, but dropping the heating mantle with the lab jack averted a big mess. When using the lab grade the reaction proceeded smoothly. My current batch of sodium acetate I've boiled down in a large enamelware pot until a crust starts to form on top. I let it cool then collect the solids and rinse quickly with ice cold water. My rinse water goes back into the pot and I repeat the evaporation, collection, and rinsing procedure. By the third time the remaining liquid has taken on the appearance of warm maple syrup, which I discard. Now, when drying, it powders and fluffs up nicely with a much smoother reaction with sulfuric acid when making acetic acid
Ever consider vacuum purging?
I wonder if you used a closed box with two openings that had a hair dryer or heat gun fitted in one, and a flap to act like a bellows on the other one (so when the air is cut off, the hole is closed up to avoid moist air from getting back inside) I am looking at doing something similar to this to dehydrate ABS filament for printing on the fly instead of oven drying the filament first then it slowly getting water absorbed into it as it is sitting on the spindle being spooled off into the extruder of the printer.
Could you use a microwave to drive out any water? Or would the radiation from the microwave affect the final product? Or even convert it back to sodium (bi)carbonate
You don't have adequate temperature control with a microwave. You will get local hot spots and decomposition. The point of using an oven is to maintain a uniform temperature without exceeding the desired dehydration temperature. Temperature controlled ovens replaced the need for a drying pistol (q.v.). A convection oven with an internal circulating fan will give better results than a conventional still air oven. An electric oven equipped with a thermocouple PID controller will give more precise temperature control than a conventional kitchen oven.
@@dpasek1 The temperature control handles itself. Sodium acetate absorbs very little microwave radiation, it's only the water that's actually heated by it. Anhydrous sodium acetate barely warms in a microwave so it's actually pretty much ideal for drying it.
@@EddieTheH Are you actually doing it that way without damaging your microwave? I'll just keep using my thermostatically controlled oven so I don't have to keep an eye on it. I also prefer to roll the material in aluminum foil for ease of handling.
@@dpasek1 Yeah, I just go in 30 second bursts til it's dry.
That is too much manual effort. I set my lab oven to the appropriate temperature and come back later when it is convenient. The difference in energy consumption is worth much less than my time. Also, I can wrap the stuff in an aluminum foil boat to reduce handling hassle.
This man is getting his acetic anhydride on.
Could you dry it in the microwave?
This actually seems very possible. May get localized wet and dry spots though
Yup, it's actually my favoured method because once the water's gone the microwave barely heats the sodium acetate.
I thought you were going to roll up a 100$ bill and try a few lines of that stuff!
Can we use the same process for potassium acetate?
That liquid is molten Sodium acetate 3H2O right?
that plus some water, I would guess
Molten H2O with some sodium acetate dissolved in it. It's much more dense so the acetate floats on it.
I did almost exactly the same thing with MgSO4 (Epsom Salt). I used steel cookie pans.
I use it as a drying agent, to remove water from DCM I distill from paint stripper, then water to remove methanol. (You used K2CO3, just as good).
It seems to work to make anhydrous EtOH, too.
Michael F What is EtOH?
@@zanpekosak2383 Ethanol
Too bad the government banned DCM from paint stripper. Those days are long gone now.
@@kobold7763 I know a lot of time has passed now, but many anti-spatter sprays for welding still use DCM. It always struck me as a bit mental as it can produce phosgene when heated.
Hi sir how to make half-saturated aqueous sodium acetate?
Next time put all crystals in a some fine mesh and a bucket underneath so would all water drain in the bucket and it would all go much faster.
That would get the top portion faster but that liquid is saturated with sodium acetate. It's water too must be driven off and still more powder will form in top if it. Maybe a series of meshes could eliminate the need for stirring at all? Crystals to the top tray and powder forms in four or five?
Hi Doug:How do you hydrate anhydrous sodium acetate? I bought the wrong kind and need to make it trihydrate.
I would just add 3 moles of water for every mole of Na Acetate. Optionally, you could add enough water to recrystallize it as well.
@@chickenspaceprogram Or just leave it sitting out, it'll get there all by itself.
So, would this process be safe for using in anything used on the face, such as lotion or makeup? I saw this in the ingredient list
Sorry I'm a bit late here. Most anhydrous salts will dry out your skin. If your ingredient list recorded sodium acetate then it almost certainly meant the try-hydrate form, not the anhydrous form being made from that in this video
can it work for potassium acetate?
Sodium Acetate trihydrate decomposes at 252 degrees F (122 deg C)
Yes, this is when it decomposes, releasing its water from the crystal structure of the hydrated compound, allowing the water to evaporate leaving the anhydrous form.
On the subject of dehydration. Magnesium nitrate ___hydrate can be actually be dehydrated using a vacuum pump and some heat . Which is contrary to what wikipedia says.
Yea, i should cite my source but....
How to make Bubble soap...
Does sodium acetate release methane if overheated?
No, not under inert atmosphere. See my reply above.
So what do you do with it??????
Boof it.
mmmmm sodium acetate casserole
NaOAc looks like Sodium Actinate.
Not your best video
Agreed. I just dry it in the microwave, seems pretty near impossible to overheat that way as the trihydrate absorbs the microwaves whereas the anhydrous sodium acetate is largely transparent to them.
That's trihydrate not anhydrous. All you did is take your wet sodium acetate and dry it down to the 3H2O state.
Sodium acetate trihydrate decomposes at 58 C. In a 150 C oven there is no way it will stay that cool. What's fascinating is that the solution that the powder is floating on top of is saturated with the anhydrous form too! If the liquid is carefully cooled this strange form will be maintained, though supersaturated. Introducing a bit of trihydrate will crystalize the solution to back to trihydrate and some heat.
Your wife has a little mess to clean up!