I think the average marine in a combat suit would stand about 7 - 8 feet tall. Unless of course it is Tychus Findlay, who is 6'7" without the suit, so with it on, probably 9 feet tall. Still smaller than a Zealot though.
Sentry guardian shield should reduce EMP damage to shields. Give void rays a cooldown ability that lets them to move while continuing to shoot for a short time.
"Nip it in the bud" is an informal idiom that means to stop something early on or thoroughly check something. For example, "By arresting all the leaders, they nipped the rebellion in the bud". The expression alludes to a spring frost that kills flower buds. It was first recorded in a Beaumont and Fletcher play of 1606--1607.
It seems every time I see skytoss against terran now it's just a slow loss. Skytoss just loses to viking, it's not even close. The only way it seems to be winable with skytoss is to surprise the terran before they can build up their viking count. The terran can get to mass vikings many times faster than protoss can get their air army built or reinforced, and it trades very cost effectively.
Yeah I'm surprised nobody is ever complaining about it. Corruptors and Vikings just decimate any sort of skytoss comp there doesn't seem to be anything protoss can do since the void ray can't compete. Being able to hit both air and ground costs too much to skytoss units. Anything that deals area damage from protoss is either awfully slow or awfully short range. EMP is like storm but more accurate and faster, and ghosts are still strong on their own without that. High templars are kind of a joke in comparison. Tempests barely outrange vikings and are less maneuverable, they should deal area damage.
On the topic of the ghost, I agree that it feels overtuned, but honestly it needs a rework, not a nerf. It already got a radius nerf, but in its current state I don't believe nerfs will never be enough until the ghost isn't viable at all in TvP. Why? Well, ghosts require a lot of investment - You have to tech up to a ghost academy, swap your rax to tech labs which slows your bio production speed, and even then each ghost costs the same price as a siege tank. Without abilities, it stands at almost half the health of a siege tank, with auto attack damage about equal to a single unstimmed marine. 2 unstimmed marines versus light. So the ghost is a caster, and only pays for itself as a caster. That's fine, but the problem is with the ability design. Let's look at snipe in the TvP matchup. Does a lot of damage, but only to light units. What does that mean for PvT? Well, Toss only has 5 light units: probes, high templar, zealots, adepts, and DTs. Snipe can't target _anything else_ Protoss has. This means that without EMP, the ghost would be useless as both a combat unit AND as a support caster in TvP, only trained if you intend to nuke your opponent. And at that point, nuking would be a high risk, high cost, very slow move that your opponent can _still_ spot in time to run the probes back even if they don't scout it in advance. Between the academy, ghost, and nuke, that's -400/-275. Only worth it if your opponent makes a huge mistake in missing the dot, a gamble that isn't worth taking in any mid to high level match. All that to say... EMP shield damage hasn't been nerfed into the ground yet because, believe it or not, it's the only thing the ghost currently has going for it in PvT. I agree, it's stupid to watch half of your army's HP get drained by a single ball of energy that you can't even dodge, and the radius nerf only puts a band-aid on the core problem: Having a high investment unit's only means of paying for itself be dependent on a single one-time cast ability is not a healthy unit design for the game. Perhaps EMP could be nerfed more aggressively to have a casting delay or a DOT effect like storm if snipe could target non-biological units for reduced damage. This would buff the ghost's utility in TvP, allowing EMP to be made more reasonable without invalidating it, while simultaneously making it more fair to fight against - because snipe has a charge time, there's already more potential for counter play with it using blink and prism micro, or by just killing it while it's standing still to aim. At that point, the only potential problem would be visual indicators, which as we've seen from the recent widow mine change, is definitely something the council also cares about improving. This change wouldn't hurt TvZ either, because all zerg units are already biological, so changing snipe to hit non-biological targets changes nothing. The only remaining concern would be creating an indirect buff to the viper through EMP nerfs, but considering energy and shields are two different resources, there are definitely ways to make EMP more fair against Toss without removing the ghost's ability to keep other casters in check.
TL;DR: Ghosts are really expensive to tech into, and snipe does nothing to toss, so they're very feast or famine in TvP. It's an unhealthy unit design. I believe snipe should be able to hit non-biological targets for reduced damage so EMP could be reworked to something more fair (DOT, charge time, reduced damage, etc). This sacrifices raw power for utility, keeping the ghost viable in TvP while making it more fair to fight. It also wouldn't affect TvZ hardly at all.
The problem with EMP not insta removing shields is that disruptors will become even harder to deal with since the unit will move out of range while still having the ball on the field
ghosts are imbalanced bad. EMP needs a range nerf they can stealth to get in close... they counter every T3 zerg unit with hust energy. Absurd OP unit that breaks balance in most match ups.
EMP needs a rework (or flat out nerf). EMP does too much damage one instant cast can wipe hundreds of hitpoints or more. Compare it to how long it takes for storm to do any kind of similar damage and how much easier it is to dodge (bonus wipes energy). Plus the protoss army naturally tends to ball up making it an even more powerful weapon against toss. Maxpax has fantastic micro but how does he micro against losing an absurd amount of hp off his army to an instant cast? It's anti-skill. Look at how amazing watching Clem dodge all those disruptor shots - how do we make a similar possibility for toss micro?
true, terran does just have quite some unavoidable instant aoe, be it emp or tank shots. and enemies are just expected to eat it up. meanwhile, with disruptors, or biles for that matter, all but the most geriatric units can leasurely walk out of the aoe. disruptors are even locked in place while this is going on. maybe emp should just remove a % instead of a flat amount of shields. maybe it should be 100 shield/energy total instead of 100 of both. to give it some counterplay, perhaps draw it out over several seconds. tho that might make it too similar to storm
I do agree lowko, the EMP needs some counter play or a nurf. An idea would be to make the sentry shield reduce EMP damage by X% as well as it's normal damage reduction
much too small. EMP should do NOTHING to shields and only affect energy. One Terran fields ghosts, Toss is done for. every time. disruptors buy a few extra seconds until they get sniped while bowling.
@Lost7one in theory yes, in practice not really. Maybe if the ghost's EMP was melee range. Lowko even mentioned that sniping the ghost is supposed to be the current counterclaim. Unfortunately, the EMP range is so massive that you can't engage the ghosts before they EMP your army, and EMP out ranges the high Templar too when you account for the radius of the spell. Basically the current counters don't work and it makes PvT boring to watch. As soon as the ghosts come out I know the terrain wins and I just walk away from the video until I hear lowko announce the start of the next game.
I absolutely agree. There is definitely a whinny terrain player on the balance team. I didn't personally have many issues with the balance patch, but why was there an infestor nerf?! There is only a handful of players that I have seen get success out of them while a majority seem to struggle. It really did seem like they nerfed it because of Serral's success with it. Which is absolutely ridiculous! So, if Clem gets terrain nerfed I think that is fair.
Terran is the hardest to use, so if someone isn't as good at the game as they think they are (very common) than their opinion on terran strength will be way off. terran is the most mechanically hardest to use race, when played very well they are literally unbeatable. If you trained AI bots with 2000 APM to play SC22 Terran would have 100% win rate, Its just almost inhuman to to do. difficult to balance due to design.
@@villz1267 I wouldn't compare a human's ability to an A.I. While they clearly have better APM they lack the ability to adapt and come up with strategies. Terrian players just need to be more realistic. Work smarter not harder. Give up medivacs and swap to Ravens when you see the infestors. They could even split up the snipers to reduce the damage done.... I don't know if the nuke would kill the Nydus Network, but start nuking military productions rather than hoping to land it on moving targets like army/workers (ON CREEP!). Especially when you know the Vipers are going to drain the structures HP to gain energy. Which is practically a given if you have Ravens out. Games like chess or poker haven't changed their design over hundreds of years. Instead, the players have learned to change their strategies. It is time that terrain players stop making excuses and start getting good at the game. Stop abusing mechanics and start adapting. A grouped up bunch of snipers deserves to lose to an infestor. Especially when you are expecting to have your cake and eat it too (medivacs instead of Ravens). If this isn't a viable option then you know where to start redesigning.
I'm a zerg main, but I have to say it: Terran is OP in TvP. The problem are Vikings and Ghosts. They are OP as hell. What is Protoss supposed to do when enough Vikings in a clump can one shot any air unit or Colossus from a huge range then back off before the Protoss can trade? They need either a range reduction or a big change to how they attack (quicker, less damaging missiles). Then a couple ghosts can literally HALVE your entire armies HP?? That's insane compared to every other spell in the game.
Don't forget the Raven interferes matrix, making Colossus immobile for quite some time. Terran units just counter protoss so well. At this point SkyToss doesn’t look so scary at high level now.
Ghosts are imbalanced, vikings fire rate is absurd, liberators are too tanky for their dps. Terran is a busted race. Easily the most imbalanced but also the hardest to use. If 2000 apm AI's played it would be 100% terran win rate.
Maxpax is fantastic but Clem, when he has his game on, is just unstoppable. I actually don't see Clrem playing against protoos all that much, thanks for sharing this one.
As a Protoss and MaxPax fan this was such a frustrating series to watch ... You can't break Terran defenses in the early game and you don't have an answer against Liberators. And then Vikings counter Colossus, Tempest and Carriers, and let's not even begin with Ghosts ... And people wonder why Protoss hasn't been able to win a Major. No doubt everyone in the balancing committee plays Terran.
Okay but facts though. Protoss is severely underpowered honestly. Emp drains half their “health” and they have no answer for half the Terran units. It’s crazy.
Fully agree. The balance is so f..ked up . Protoss need to use all kind of trick just the beat the most basic terran unit composition. And terran has a better answer for everything if you go forward. Ghost are fully ridicolous. I'm big fan of terran but it's a shame to have a unit which is an ultimate caster and a good fighter as well .
Protoss does not have answers in late game against neither Terran nor Zerg. But as a Broodwar veteran the only thing i can say is "about time!". Kidding.
I'm just waiting for the sequel where he says "Hello everyone my name is Lowko and welcome back to a professional match of StarCraft 2" twice in a row.
Lowko, thank you for consistently uploading Starcraft 2 content. I've been watching your videos on and off for years and they've always brought me great comfort through even the most challenging times of my life. You are and always will be one of my favorite youtubers :)
I'm only a Diamond Protoss, but my suggestions for Protoss were new upgrades that increase energy regeneration rate for a few units (much like the new Caduceus Reactor for Medivacs)... Khaydarin Matrix (150m 150g 85s at Cybernetics Core) for Sentries, Argus Jewel (100m 100g 57s at Fleet Beacon) for Oracles and Khaydarin Amulet (150m 150s 78s at Templar Archives) for High Templars. Not sure how good they will be in practice though. I don't like to be a whiner though.
I play zerg so its not anywhere nears much of an issue for me, but I've always thought EMP was too strong against protoss. I mean thats instantly half their HP at the start of the engagement without any way to prevent or mitigate it, and it even decloaks units, as well as comply nullify a number of other units like templars. Sidenote: Lol dang, zerg winrate so far on that one map is atrocious; 1 win out of nearly 20 games???
@@SilvinhoWA They nerfed Ghost 4 times, have yet to nerf the Overcharge or Storms for that matter.... But hey Clem and Maru can dodge Storms so it isn't OP
@@malekiththeeternityking5433 storm it's damage over time and emp outranges it and it's instant, I don't know how you want to avoid instant damage and even if they don't get the best emp the ghost it's also a combat unit unlike any other caster
@@SilvinhoWA The Queen can hold off BC's Oracles and any other unit tbh. But hey you keep crying about Ghosts maybe they'll nerf it again cause the last three patches have been nothing but Terran nerfs
One of the (many) reasons why EMP is not overpowered is that it literally cannot kill other units or buildings. Storm can wipe out entire armies. Disruptors can not only kill buildings, and can also wipe out armies. EMP is more on the level of fungal growth. Both are useful tools, but Protoss clearly have the best spells.
How much better is the ghost than the disruptor? Ghost has a powerful auto attack and EMP is instant, and hard to micro against Disruptor can only attack when microed, has a long delay, and is easy to micro against.
Phantoms in SC2 multiplayer shouldn't be as strong as KERRIGAN in the solo campaign. Snipes / EMPs / Nukes / Has cloak / is a Bio unit that can be healed by Medivac -> it's just INSAAANE how strong they are! I believe that Lowko is right: nobody talks about EMPs because they are no as flashy as the rest of the others capacities. Definitely nerf EMP + make snipes more of a roleplay capacity: only powerful against psychic units, and that's it. It's fine if it easily kills High Templars, Archonts or Infestors, but +3/+3 Colossus, Carriers, Ultralisks, Lurkers, Broodlords shouldn't take as much damage as they do in the current meta.
*Ment for the first game* Maybe CC rushing a little bit away from the golden minerals, then lifting off and placing it down by the golden minerals to build a PF would be good. That's like 750 minerals to deny a base for multiple minutes. If you manage to hold it relatively comfortably, maybe moving a tank and some units there would be good in order to anchor a position close to the enemy. Maybe even taking the rich gas would be worth it. That would also make use of any SCV you have there ready for repairs.
so, isnt toss supposed to be the race with the expensive, but powerful units? cause im not really seeing it. the second part, i mean. compared to terran. seems like whenever races have similar abilities, zerg and toss get some huge drawbacks with those abilities. while terran versions come with almost instant effect, next to no counterplay (or counterplay that takes much more effort than the actual play) and not a whole lot of consequences for screwing up. take ghosts. or widow mines.
against protoss, you can proxy, if they take the gold, you build a techlab and a bunker, with the bunker slightly further back, and use a maurader to deny mining, if they don't take it, build 1 reaper and fly the barracks home.
From what I can tell, the death spiral from a Terran usually begins with large quantities of medivacs pooling up, and not being killed before its too late. It's like, once the Terran player has enough of them, their units become extremely difficult to kill because they can be healed so fast, or simply evacuated en mass from any sort of danger. As long as a Terran bio unit isn't one shot, it can continually be at full health similar to battery overcharge. I've noticed this in a lot of games shown on this channel, both with Protoss and Zerg opponents. Oh well, that's my little tangent on what I've observed about Terran player wins.
1:17:00 i'm not usually s.o. to call for big changes, but how about the shield upgrade for protoss (which is like... never?.. researched) gives also resistance to emp. shield+1 takes 10% dmg of emp away, shield+2 takes 20% away and shield+3 takes 30% dmg from emp away (or whatever % makes sense). this way emp is still good, but has actuall interaction with protoss and not just a "well, it's ALSO doing THIS" over all, the efficiency of clem in this game was insane.. in each match. reducing disruptors to zoning-tools most of the time
Knowing the exact timing in order to trigger the widow mine while blink is still ticking down and to blink a split second after it's done and save the stalker just goes to show how ridiculously skilled these players are at this level.
I'm loving the early gold base expansion on Dynasty as a spectator. Players going for it and duking it out on each opposite sides of the map simultaneously is cool.
I think a good change to EMP would be either a damage reduction when guardian shield is up, or making it do energy damage first before stripping shields. That way you can still shut down casters but it won't do as much shield damage.
EMP should do a base amount of damage split among all units hit. like, (500 damage + 20 per unit affected), split evenly. That way stacking and absorbing single EMPs could be a useful form of counterplay. If your 3 infestors are surrounded by a dozen zerglings, the zerglings would absorb a lot of the damage and protect the infestors from being completely drained.
Lowko, can you do some research on exactly how much minerals are spent repairing the bunker like Clem did at the start of the video? The resources lost tab doesn't cover that and I feel like its more significant than people think. In future videos, try and guesstimate how much minerals are being spent repairing when a Terran repairs a lot.
Well. Protoss's main unit damage, armor and shield upgrade buildings only costing minerals, and with the armory no longer cloaking mines and requiring a tech lab upgrade + armory I think seems fair.
As a Terran Main, I think either Archons should be immune to EMP, or all protoss units should take half the shield damage from EMP when inside a power field.
A small buff to the purification nova speed would be nice. Now these almost always get fully avoided because most units move way faster. At least Clem avoids most of these
I think EMP should be changed to a missile that takes ~0.8 seconds to reach its target, and that affects both shields and energy, however, energy will only be affected on units that have no shields when the EMP lands. So to zero out High Templar you'd need to reduce their shields with combat units first, or cast a second EMP. Likewise any cloaked units with remaining shields would lose their shields, but not become uncloaked. The latter change would weaken EMP against Protoss modestly, but not against Zerg, and the former would allow both Zerg and Protoss to micro a little bit against EMP shots, leading to more interesting gameplay and more opportunity for skill. Viking also needs a -0.5 to 1.0 range reduction against air. I love playing with them but man are they just grossly OP in my opinion.
i think we lack high templar in this series, and i dont know if its because of ghosts considering that they can feedback and psi storm pre emtively, i lack knowledge of playing protoss and playing this matchup to judge. on a side note; i wish void rays are also more viable on late game
Collossi? Oh no, Vikings. Literally any Skytoss unit? Oh no, more Vikings. Not quite that simple, but the only difference between countering groundtoss and countering Skytoss is that you build liberators to counter ground toss.
If Lowko wants to reach new audiences I feel like he should collab with other creators. It helps reach out to people outside of StarCraft. I first found out about the game from watching alphazero and alphastar and I think if Lowko collaborated with someone like Hikaru or gothamchess their viewers could be easily translated from chess to starcraft
Maybe the problem is that with skytoss he never really steamrolld Clems army, never tried it. Kiting with Skytoss against Vikings will be always bad. He never commited hard with his skytoss, that was a huge problem i think.
to me... race balance needs to be balanced but different maps for different races should be a must. it creates dynamic games and more rewarding for the players who engage in different strategies.
21:05: OMG, WTF was he thinking?? =0 A minute earlier he had a good Zealot flank set up and instead decides to go in with no flank, after eating a Anti-Armor... wow. 32:50: And yet again... 46:28: That's TEN Disruptors! =0 47:13: Aaaand half a minute later it's 4... 46:42: Little attention paid to the fight where Clem lost about 15 Supply vs Max about 40 😵 48:00: Max beating himself to death on this PF... 48:15: And for my next trick, I shall make the Protoss army disappear! 50:00: Ah man, if those Zealots had gone the other way around it would have been so much better. 51:33: Now you see the army... 51:46 now you don't!
So much talk about the Protoss balance council not standing up for themselves, what about the Zerg letting them balance around Serral? I think the outlier is the assertive/whiny/sneaky Terran advocates, and I'm not sure we should be holding them up as the ideal for the other two to match...
EMP is undeniably overpowered vs shields. It seems like such an easy fix. Leave EMPs impact on energy unchanged, but make each EMP only remove 25% of a units shields.
"Maybe multiples" - well I think at this point everyone except the Terran mains knows that it's statistically most reliable to assume a Terran player is a balance whiner until proven otherwise, so it's just a question of if there's more than one Terran main on the Balance Council.
Mothership and Colossus should not be allowed to abduct. EMP should only drain half the Protoss shield. Increase storm or feedback range by 25%. Give us Protoss lovers a chance to win something. Lowko, go yell at balance committee (which I assume is 7 Terran, 2 Zerg and 1 Protoss players).
Clems micro plug being able to constantly have air dominance is what really hurt MaxPax IMO. If MaxPax had a better anit-air option for protoss things might have been much better for Max
I've always thought EMP for TvP is OP. Taking away the shields of protoss is almost like halfing there health to all units in range! In 1 switch shot. That's crazy.
Im not good enough for it to have a significant impact on my games 99/100 times but reducing the damage EMP does to shields would go such a long way at the pro level. It just feels like it’s too much of a catch-all against Protoss. Got a problem? Make ghost
Sometimes I'm wondering if aside from obvious bullshit of EMP, the vikings are also a bit too good in being able to burst out every skytoss unit. And it's kind of cheap and quick to build a ton of them.
RE: sneaky Terran buffs, it's no fun to be nerfed and lose toys. If you're going to take things away you also need to open up other possibilities and encourage healthier play styles. Like, sure some people are tired of Terran and want to see them knocked down, but that kind of vindictive balancing would kill the game.
imo i think the orbital commands are the most unbalanced thing about terran, in a game were information means alot having unlimited scans, and were losing workers becomes meaningless with mules its strange to me noone says a thing about them
Don't let the double intro distract you from the fact Lowko experiments with us by turning his laundry machine on and off in the middle of videos. Additional note: Remove disruptors from the game. The unit feels so bad to watch. It relies on your opponent being bad at micro to gain value. Edit: EMP too good!!! Protoss players have been angry at it for years. I guess it was sidelined because of the widow mine.
I remember when I played this game. And.. I see little has changed. All the "build a protoss death ball and a move" toss players are whining about the top Terran players with skill and strategic awareness beyond their feeble minds.
Lol I can just see it now. Terrans on balance committee say 1 or 2 aggressive things and then sit back and act all defensive until they get all or most of what they want then become aggressive again. Just like their play style. But yes emp should get nerf. At least half damage to shields or else feedback will be needed to be as well. But let's be far Protoss will be nerfed before they think about Terran nerf.
'Hello everyone, Lowko here. Hello everyone, Lowko here.'
LowkoBot CONFIRMED
echo echo echo
He may have forgotten to trim that out? Lol
"Hello everyone, Lowko here. Hello everyone, Lowko here."
@@josephsleiman9964 I think so since his voice went higher on the second one
Lowko gives us 2 Hello Everyones to make up for the times he didn't.
Loko and his twin brother Loko casting perfectly synchronized.
Next balance patch: siege tanks now can waddle forward while in siege mode
Nooooo
Heroes of the storm actually has this as a talent for siege tank
At the rate the idiot balance council are going they will give ghosts reaper jump packs and regen
@@villz1267 spoken like a true plat player
if lurkers profit from the tunneling-claws of the roaches and go full dune-worm, i'd be fine with that
Bro wanted to record the intro twice
I think the average marine in a combat suit would stand about 7 - 8 feet tall. Unless of course it is Tychus Findlay, who is 6'7" without the suit, so with it on, probably 9 feet tall. Still smaller than a Zealot though.
Sentry guardian shield should reduce EMP damage to shields. Give void rays a cooldown ability that lets them to move while continuing to shoot for a short time.
"Nip it in the bud" is an informal idiom that means to stop something early on or thoroughly check something. For example, "By arresting all the leaders, they nipped the rebellion in the bud". The expression alludes to a spring frost that kills flower buds. It was first recorded in a Beaumont and Fletcher play of 1606--1607.
12:42 "Even though it is absolutely enormous, I've learned to ignore it.
THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!"
Bro, I was watching this on a living room television!
''The extended thermal lance, that was my nickname in colllege.'' At about 57:04 is also hillarious
It seems every time I see skytoss against terran now it's just a slow loss. Skytoss just loses to viking, it's not even close. The only way it seems to be winable with skytoss is to surprise the terran before they can build up their viking count. The terran can get to mass vikings many times faster than protoss can get their air army built or reinforced, and it trades very cost effectively.
Yeah I'm surprised nobody is ever complaining about it. Corruptors and Vikings just decimate any sort of skytoss comp there doesn't seem to be anything protoss can do since the void ray can't compete. Being able to hit both air and ground costs too much to skytoss units. Anything that deals area damage from protoss is either awfully slow or awfully short range. EMP is like storm but more accurate and faster, and ghosts are still strong on their own without that. High templars are kind of a joke in comparison.
Tempests barely outrange vikings and are less maneuverable, they should deal area damage.
On the topic of the ghost, I agree that it feels overtuned, but honestly it needs a rework, not a nerf. It already got a radius nerf, but in its current state I don't believe nerfs will never be enough until the ghost isn't viable at all in TvP.
Why? Well, ghosts require a lot of investment - You have to tech up to a ghost academy, swap your rax to tech labs which slows your bio production speed, and even then each ghost costs the same price as a siege tank.
Without abilities, it stands at almost half the health of a siege tank, with auto attack damage about equal to a single unstimmed marine. 2 unstimmed marines versus light. So the ghost is a caster, and only pays for itself as a caster. That's fine, but the problem is with the ability design.
Let's look at snipe in the TvP matchup. Does a lot of damage, but only to light units. What does that mean for PvT? Well, Toss only has 5 light units: probes, high templar, zealots, adepts, and DTs. Snipe can't target _anything else_ Protoss has.
This means that without EMP, the ghost would be useless as both a combat unit AND as a support caster in TvP, only trained if you intend to nuke your opponent. And at that point, nuking would be a high risk, high cost, very slow move that your opponent can _still_ spot in time to run the probes back even if they don't scout it in advance. Between the academy, ghost, and nuke, that's -400/-275. Only worth it if your opponent makes a huge mistake in missing the dot, a gamble that isn't worth taking in any mid to high level match.
All that to say... EMP shield damage hasn't been nerfed into the ground yet because, believe it or not, it's the only thing the ghost currently has going for it in PvT. I agree, it's stupid to watch half of your army's HP get drained by a single ball of energy that you can't even dodge, and the radius nerf only puts a band-aid on the core problem: Having a high investment unit's only means of paying for itself be dependent on a single one-time cast ability is not a healthy unit design for the game.
Perhaps EMP could be nerfed more aggressively to have a casting delay or a DOT effect like storm if snipe could target non-biological units for reduced damage. This would buff the ghost's utility in TvP, allowing EMP to be made more reasonable without invalidating it, while simultaneously making it more fair to fight against - because snipe has a charge time, there's already more potential for counter play with it using blink and prism micro, or by just killing it while it's standing still to aim. At that point, the only potential problem would be visual indicators, which as we've seen from the recent widow mine change, is definitely something the council also cares about improving.
This change wouldn't hurt TvZ either, because all zerg units are already biological, so changing snipe to hit non-biological targets changes nothing. The only remaining concern would be creating an indirect buff to the viper through EMP nerfs, but considering energy and shields are two different resources, there are definitely ways to make EMP more fair against Toss without removing the ghost's ability to keep other casters in check.
TL;DR: Ghosts are really expensive to tech into, and snipe does nothing to toss, so they're very feast or famine in TvP. It's an unhealthy unit design.
I believe snipe should be able to hit non-biological targets for reduced damage so EMP could be reworked to something more fair (DOT, charge time, reduced damage, etc). This sacrifices raw power for utility, keeping the ghost viable in TvP while making it more fair to fight. It also wouldn't affect TvZ hardly at all.
The problem with EMP not insta removing shields is that disruptors will become even harder to deal with since the unit will move out of range while still having the ball on the field
@@striderhiryu9501I think you are mistaken. The Ruptor is rooted in place until the ball detonates
@@HungTran-cv9jt yep sorry you are correct
@@striderhiryu9501 All good!
between emp and anti armour missile i don't get how terran ever loses this match up.
Seems like if Clem plays today and the opponent is NOT Serral, we already know who will win^^
Let's hope he keeps it up.
Right. He's an absolute monster.
im not a player so my opinion isnt worth much but ghosts just seem to bring so much value in games that arent terran vs terran
ghosts are imbalanced bad. EMP needs a range nerf they can stealth to get in close... they counter every T3 zerg unit with hust energy. Absurd OP unit that breaks balance in most match ups.
EMP needs a rework (or flat out nerf). EMP does too much damage one instant cast can wipe hundreds of hitpoints or more. Compare it to how long it takes for storm to do any kind of similar damage and how much easier it is to dodge (bonus wipes energy). Plus the protoss army naturally tends to ball up making it an even more powerful weapon against toss. Maxpax has fantastic micro but how does he micro against losing an absurd amount of hp off his army to an instant cast? It's anti-skill. Look at how amazing watching Clem dodge all those disruptor shots - how do we make a similar possibility for toss micro?
true, terran does just have quite some unavoidable instant aoe, be it emp or tank shots. and enemies are just expected to eat it up.
meanwhile, with disruptors, or biles for that matter, all but the most geriatric units can leasurely walk out of the aoe. disruptors are even locked in place while this is going on.
maybe emp should just remove a % instead of a flat amount of shields. maybe it should be 100 shield/energy total instead of 100 of both. to give it some counterplay, perhaps draw it out over several seconds. tho that might make it too similar to storm
Toss losers still complaining lmao
It doesn't wipe hitpoints though, only shields that can be regenerated.
@@Grendichmaybe lose 100HP shield over the course of 3 second like fungal growth.
@@brianfrost3344 effectively it's still hp. right before engaging, theres not as much of a difference. besides shields having worse armor
Hello everyone, Lowko here. Hello everyone, Lowko here.
bruh you fauxko
I do agree lowko, the EMP needs some counter play or a nurf. An idea would be to make the sentry shield reduce EMP damage by X% as well as it's normal damage reduction
much too small. EMP should do NOTHING to shields and only affect energy. One Terran fields ghosts, Toss is done for. every time. disruptors buy a few extra seconds until they get sniped while bowling.
EMP is countered with micro and high templar feedback.
@Lost7one in theory yes, in practice not really. Maybe if the ghost's EMP was melee range. Lowko even mentioned that sniping the ghost is supposed to be the current counterclaim. Unfortunately, the EMP range is so massive that you can't engage the ghosts before they EMP your army, and EMP out ranges the high Templar too when you account for the radius of the spell. Basically the current counters don't work and it makes PvT boring to watch. As soon as the ghosts come out I know the terrain wins and I just walk away from the video until I hear lowko announce the start of the next game.
@@DanielDem87 if a terran player is good enough to use EMP, then the massive range advantage and massive radius of EMP ensures that that is impossible
@@DanielDem87It's not though
I absolutely agree. There is definitely a whinny terrain player on the balance team. I didn't personally have many issues with the balance patch, but why was there an infestor nerf?! There is only a handful of players that I have seen get success out of them while a majority seem to struggle. It really did seem like they nerfed it because of Serral's success with it. Which is absolutely ridiculous! So, if Clem gets terrain nerfed I think that is fair.
Terran is the hardest to use, so if someone isn't as good at the game as they think they are (very common) than their opinion on terran strength will be way off. terran is the most mechanically hardest to use race, when played very well they are literally unbeatable. If you trained AI bots with 2000 APM to play SC22 Terran would have 100% win rate, Its just almost inhuman to to do. difficult to balance due to design.
@@villz1267 I wouldn't compare a human's ability to an A.I. While they clearly have better APM they lack the ability to adapt and come up with strategies. Terrian players just need to be more realistic. Work smarter not harder. Give up medivacs and swap to Ravens when you see the infestors. They could even split up the snipers to reduce the damage done.... I don't know if the nuke would kill the Nydus Network, but start nuking military productions rather than hoping to land it on moving targets like army/workers (ON CREEP!). Especially when you know the Vipers are going to drain the structures HP to gain energy. Which is practically a given if you have Ravens out.
Games like chess or poker haven't changed their design over hundreds of years. Instead, the players have learned to change their strategies. It is time that terrain players stop making excuses and start getting good at the game. Stop abusing mechanics and start adapting. A grouped up bunch of snipers deserves to lose to an infestor. Especially when you are expecting to have your cake and eat it too (medivacs instead of Ravens).
If this isn't a viable option then you know where to start redesigning.
I'm a zerg main, but I have to say it: Terran is OP in TvP. The problem are Vikings and Ghosts. They are OP as hell. What is Protoss supposed to do when enough Vikings in a clump can one shot any air unit or Colossus from a huge range then back off before the Protoss can trade? They need either a range reduction or a big change to how they attack (quicker, less damaging missiles). Then a couple ghosts can literally HALVE your entire armies HP?? That's insane compared to every other spell in the game.
Don't forget the Raven interferes matrix, making Colossus immobile for quite some time. Terran units just counter protoss so well. At this point SkyToss doesn’t look so scary at high level now.
They are expected to do the same than against vipers and infestors. Nothing.
what you bronze leagues forget is that shields regenerate.
Ghosts are imbalanced, vikings fire rate is absurd, liberators are too tanky for their dps. Terran is a busted race. Easily the most imbalanced but also the hardest to use. If 2000 apm AI's played it would be 100% terran win rate.
@@Jez4prez1What you forget is EMP exists.
Maxpax is fantastic but Clem, when he has his game on, is just unstoppable. I actually don't see Clrem playing against protoos all that much, thanks for sharing this one.
As a Protoss and MaxPax fan this was such a frustrating series to watch ... You can't break Terran defenses in the early game and you don't have an answer against Liberators. And then Vikings counter Colossus, Tempest and Carriers, and let's not even begin with Ghosts ... And people wonder why Protoss hasn't been able to win a Major. No doubt everyone in the balancing committee plays Terran.
Okay but facts though. Protoss is severely underpowered honestly. Emp drains half their “health” and they have no answer for half the Terran units. It’s crazy.
Fully agree. The balance is so f..ked up . Protoss need to use all kind of trick just the beat the most basic terran unit composition. And terran has a better answer for everything if you go forward. Ghost are fully ridicolous. I'm big fan of terran but it's a shame to have a unit which is an ultimate caster and a good fighter as well .
🧂🧂🧂🧂🧂
@@Random-op5xl sorry to burst your bubble but it's not salt when these are irrefutable facts.
Protoss does not have answers in late game against neither Terran nor Zerg.
But as a Broodwar veteran the only thing i can say is "about time!". Kidding.
Clem is for Terran, what Serral is for Zerg.
Maybe in the future MaxPax will be that for Protoss.
I'm just waiting for the sequel where he says "Hello everyone my name is Lowko and welcome back to a professional match of StarCraft 2" twice in a row.
Lowko, thank you for consistently uploading Starcraft 2 content. I've been watching your videos on and off for years and they've always brought me great comfort through even the most challenging times of my life. You are and always will be one of my favorite youtubers :)
I love how PiGs term Iron bank became household term for Terran orbital spam
I'm loving the "Balance Council" jabs, lol
23:20 'maybe a second engineering bay would've be a possibility'
*the second one is right in the middle of the screen
I didn’t believe he was here until I heard it for the second time
I'm only a Diamond Protoss, but my suggestions for Protoss were new upgrades that increase energy regeneration rate for a few units (much like the new Caduceus Reactor for Medivacs)... Khaydarin Matrix (150m 150g 85s at Cybernetics Core) for Sentries, Argus Jewel (100m 100g 57s at Fleet Beacon) for Oracles and Khaydarin Amulet (150m 150s 78s at Templar Archives) for High Templars. Not sure how good they will be in practice though. I don't like to be a whiner though.
I play zerg so its not anywhere nears much of an issue for me, but I've always thought EMP was too strong against protoss.
I mean thats instantly half their HP at the start of the engagement without any way to prevent or mitigate it, and it even decloaks units, as well as comply nullify a number of other units like templars.
Sidenote: Lol dang, zerg winrate so far on that one map is atrocious; 1 win out of nearly 20 games???
And I always thought it was dumb that you could hace Battery Overcharge but hey
@@malekiththeeternityking5433I mean without overcharge emp also would counter shield battery
@@SilvinhoWA They nerfed Ghost 4 times, have yet to nerf the Overcharge or Storms for that matter.... But hey Clem and Maru can dodge Storms so it isn't OP
@@malekiththeeternityking5433 storm it's damage over time and emp outranges it and it's instant, I don't know how you want to avoid instant damage and even if they don't get the best emp the ghost it's also a combat unit unlike any other caster
@@SilvinhoWA The Queen can hold off BC's Oracles and any other unit tbh.
But hey you keep crying about Ghosts maybe they'll nerf it again cause the last three patches have been nothing but Terran nerfs
Double intro goes crazy
Yes birds live outside lowko
When MaxPax is playing Weller, is he the Wellerman then?
Lowko I've been struggling a lot the last few years with my mental health, but thank you for always producing content that makes my mind quieten
One of the (many) reasons why EMP is not overpowered is that it literally cannot kill other units or buildings. Storm can wipe out entire armies. Disruptors can not only kill buildings, and can also wipe out armies. EMP is more on the level of fungal growth. Both are useful tools, but Protoss clearly have the best spells.
1:02:19 i love the tank that got saved by a phenix 😭
Nice catch 😂
Lore wise I never understood how protoss tech gets outclassed by... gunpowder...
Might be more than regular gunpowder too ^_^
gets outclassed by... saliva, spit, and burps.
How much better is the ghost than the disruptor?
Ghost has a powerful auto attack and EMP is instant, and hard to micro against
Disruptor can only attack when microed, has a long delay, and is easy to micro against.
Phantoms in SC2 multiplayer shouldn't be as strong as KERRIGAN in the solo campaign.
Snipes / EMPs / Nukes / Has cloak / is a Bio unit that can be healed by Medivac -> it's just INSAAANE how strong they are!
I believe that Lowko is right: nobody talks about EMPs because they are no as flashy as the rest of the others capacities.
Definitely nerf EMP + make snipes more of a roleplay capacity: only powerful against psychic units, and that's it.
It's fine if it easily kills High Templars, Archonts or Infestors, but +3/+3 Colossus, Carriers, Ultralisks, Lurkers, Broodlords shouldn't take as much damage as they do in the current meta.
I only interact with the SC community through Lowko videos comments, and EMP is a common topic.
yeah good thing Lowko has no influence on the balance council, so he just keeps on whining publicly. He is not smart enough.
*Ment for the first game*
Maybe CC rushing a little bit away from the golden minerals, then lifting off and placing it down by the golden minerals to build a PF would be good. That's like 750 minerals to deny a base for multiple minutes.
If you manage to hold it relatively comfortably, maybe moving a tank and some units there would be good in order to anchor a position close to the enemy. Maybe even taking the rich gas would be worth it. That would also make use of any SCV you have there ready for repairs.
4:52 dancing stalker
Haha
so, isnt toss supposed to be the race with the expensive, but powerful units? cause im not really seeing it. the second part, i mean. compared to terran.
seems like whenever races have similar abilities, zerg and toss get some huge drawbacks with those abilities. while terran versions come with almost instant effect, next to no counterplay (or counterplay that takes much more effort than the actual play) and not a whole lot of consequences for screwing up. take ghosts. or widow mines.
Nice shade thrown at the Terran Cabal in this one.
against protoss, you can proxy, if they take the gold, you build a techlab and a bunker, with the bunker slightly further back, and use a maurader to deny mining, if they don't take it, build 1 reaper and fly the barracks home.
From what I can tell, the death spiral from a Terran usually begins with large quantities of medivacs pooling up, and not being killed before its too late. It's like, once the Terran player has enough of them, their units become extremely difficult to kill because they can be healed so fast, or simply evacuated en mass from any sort of danger. As long as a Terran bio unit isn't one shot, it can continually be at full health similar to battery overcharge. I've noticed this in a lot of games shown on this channel, both with Protoss and Zerg opponents. Oh well, that's my little tangent on what I've observed about Terran player wins.
1:17:00 i'm not usually s.o. to call for big changes, but how about the shield upgrade for protoss (which is like... never?.. researched) gives also resistance to emp. shield+1 takes 10% dmg of emp away, shield+2 takes 20% away and shield+3 takes 30% dmg from emp away (or whatever % makes sense). this way emp is still good, but has actuall interaction with protoss and not just a "well, it's ALSO doing THIS"
over all, the efficiency of clem in this game was insane.. in each match. reducing disruptors to zoning-tools most of the time
Knowing the exact timing in order to trigger the widow mine while blink is still ticking down and to blink a split second after it's done and save the stalker just goes to show how ridiculously skilled these players are at this level.
Lowko talking about Zerg odds on a map during a PvT is the Zerg Cabal at work. Keep up the good work, Darth Lowko
I'm loving the early gold base expansion on Dynasty as a spectator. Players going for it and duking it out on each opposite sides of the map simultaneously is cool.
I think a good change to EMP would be either a damage reduction when guardian shield is up, or making it do energy damage first before stripping shields. That way you can still shut down casters but it won't do as much shield damage.
Your laundry machine is imba! Plz nerf!
EMP should do a base amount of damage split among all units hit. like, (500 damage + 20 per unit affected), split evenly. That way stacking and absorbing single EMPs could be a useful form of counterplay. If your 3 infestors are surrounded by a dozen zerglings, the zerglings would absorb a lot of the damage and protect the infestors from being completely drained.
I had to run it back and play it a third time for good measure
Idk why but I kept hearing a laundry machine in the background. It’s almost like someone is doing laundry right in lowkos room…..
game 3 was wild. clem trading so well so consistently even while down 2 bases was incredible to watch. those disruptor splits were something else.
Lowko, can you do some research on exactly how much minerals are spent repairing the bunker like Clem did at the start of the video? The resources lost tab doesn't cover that and I feel like its more significant than people think. In future videos, try and guesstimate how much minerals are being spent repairing when a Terran repairs a lot.
Well. Protoss's main unit damage, armor and shield upgrade buildings only costing minerals, and with the armory no longer cloaking mines and requiring a tech lab upgrade + armory I think seems fair.
As a Terran Main, I think either Archons should be immune to EMP, or all protoss units should take half the shield damage from EMP when inside a power field.
what about shield upgrades mitigating some EMP damage?
That "that's what she said" came up so unexpectedly xD I loled hard
A small buff to the purification nova speed would be nice. Now these almost always get fully avoided because most units move way faster. At least Clem avoids most of these
I think EMP should be changed to a missile that takes ~0.8 seconds to reach its target, and that affects both shields and energy, however, energy will only be affected on units that have no shields when the EMP lands. So to zero out High Templar you'd need to reduce their shields with combat units first, or cast a second EMP. Likewise any cloaked units with remaining shields would lose their shields, but not become uncloaked. The latter change would weaken EMP against Protoss modestly, but not against Zerg, and the former would allow both Zerg and Protoss to micro a little bit against EMP shots, leading to more interesting gameplay and more opportunity for skill.
Viking also needs a -0.5 to 1.0 range reduction against air. I love playing with them but man are they just grossly OP in my opinion.
i think we lack high templar in this series, and i dont know if its because of ghosts considering that they can feedback and psi storm pre emtively, i lack knowledge of playing protoss and playing this matchup to judge.
on a side note; i wish void rays are also more viable on late game
I think that the only thing missing from Maxpax's army was the high templar like Lowko said
Kinda hard to hear this one - is there a laundry machine on in the background, perhaps???
39:00. And that's why protos dominating this map)
Collossi? Oh no, Vikings.
Literally any Skytoss unit? Oh no, more Vikings.
Not quite that simple, but the only difference between countering groundtoss and countering Skytoss is that you build liberators to counter ground toss.
If Lowko wants to reach new audiences I feel like he should collab with other creators. It helps reach out to people outside of StarCraft. I first found out about the game from watching alphazero and alphastar and I think if Lowko collaborated with someone like Hikaru or gothamchess their viewers could be easily translated from chess to starcraft
Maybe the problem is that with skytoss he never really steamrolld Clems army, never tried it. Kiting with Skytoss against Vikings will be always bad. He never commited hard with his skytoss, that was a huge problem i think.
I felt like I did a double take with that intro. Thanks, Lowko.
It’s about time!
Terran has needed some tuning for a while.
to me... race balance needs to be balanced but different maps for different races should be a must. it creates dynamic games and more rewarding for the players who engage in different strategies.
21:05: OMG, WTF was he thinking?? =0 A minute earlier he had a good Zealot flank set up and instead decides to go in with no flank, after eating a Anti-Armor... wow.
32:50: And yet again...
46:28: That's TEN Disruptors! =0 47:13: Aaaand half a minute later it's 4...
46:42: Little attention paid to the fight where Clem lost about 15 Supply vs Max about 40 😵
48:00: Max beating himself to death on this PF...
48:15: And for my next trick, I shall make the Protoss army disappear!
50:00: Ah man, if those Zealots had gone the other way around it would have been so much better.
51:33: Now you see the army... 51:46 now you don't!
Lowko, I couldn’t hear anything you said because of the laundry machine..
So much talk about the Protoss balance council not standing up for themselves, what about the Zerg letting them balance around Serral? I think the outlier is the assertive/whiny/sneaky Terran advocates, and I'm not sure we should be holding them up as the ideal for the other two to match...
EMP is undeniably overpowered vs shields. It seems like such an easy fix. Leave EMPs impact on energy unchanged, but make each EMP only remove 25% of a units shields.
Or remove half of what's left, so it's diminishing returns.
"Maybe multiples" - well I think at this point everyone except the Terran mains knows that it's statistically most reliable to assume a Terran player is a balance whiner until proven otherwise, so it's just a question of if there's more than one Terran main on the Balance Council.
Thanks Lowko, your two intros made me think I was having a stroke, and then I died...because you stopped your classic singsong intro.
😢
As a Lowko and Starcraft 2 enjoyer, i really like this map. And man, MaxPax and Clem are so damn good at this game
Disrupter needs to fire 3 balls to even things out.
You aren’t 6kmmr so quit crying about balance for Protoss platinum 3 boy
So toxic. Yeesh. Stop embarrassing the fandom @@AntonioLopez-kw3ev
@@rayzerot girly males say the word toxic
Just a thought maybe make it so tempest need a robitics bay or a fleet beacon. To make it more available.
when you said siege tank with legs. I thought of a tank with Colossus legs, and when they siege there legs spread across the map. haha
Mothership and Colossus should not be allowed to abduct. EMP should only drain half the Protoss shield. Increase storm or feedback range by 25%. Give us Protoss lovers a chance to win something. Lowko, go yell at balance committee (which I assume is 7 Terran, 2 Zerg and 1 Protoss players).
Terran player here, and Byun fan. But, legit excited for Clem. Really stoked to see Clem face Serral at the Dallas Dreamhack 2024 !
Clems micro plug being able to constantly have air dominance is what really hurt MaxPax IMO. If MaxPax had a better anit-air option for protoss things might have been much better for Max
I've always thought EMP for TvP is OP. Taking away the shields of protoss is almost like halfing there health to all units in range! In 1 switch shot. That's crazy.
Im not good enough for it to have a significant impact on my games 99/100 times but reducing the damage EMP does to shields would go such a long way at the pro level. It just feels like it’s too much of a catch-all against Protoss. Got a problem? Make ghost
Lowko, it never annoys me when you ask me to like a video. I appreciate the reminder tbh bc by myself i would forget
Sometimes I'm wondering if aside from obvious bullshit of EMP, the vikings are also a bit too good in being able to burst out every skytoss unit. And it's kind of cheap and quick to build a ton of them.
He's gotta end with HELLO EVERYONE LOWKO HERE so we get confused as the next videos play lol
Dang, what's that rattling in the video? Is Lowko doing LAUNDRY??
RE: sneaky Terran buffs, it's no fun to be nerfed and lose toys. If you're going to take things away you also need to open up other possibilities and encourage healthier play styles. Like, sure some people are tired of Terran and want to see them knocked down, but that kind of vindictive balancing would kill the game.
imo i think the orbital commands are the most unbalanced thing about terran, in a game were information means alot having unlimited scans, and were losing workers becomes meaningless with mules its strange to me noone says a thing about them
Don't let the double intro distract you from the fact Lowko experiments with us by turning his laundry machine on and off in the middle of videos.
Additional note: Remove disruptors from the game. The unit feels so bad to watch. It relies on your opponent being bad at micro to gain value.
Edit: EMP too good!!! Protoss players have been angry at it for years. I guess it was sidelined because of the widow mine.
I remember when I played this game. And.. I see little has changed. All the "build a protoss death ball and a move" toss players are whining about the top Terran players with skill and strategic awareness beyond their feeble minds.
1:12:29 what was that?
He glitched apparently
Lowko Lowko, A name so nice, you say it twice.
How amazing would look pvt without emp, like late zvt without snipies or if abduction couldnt hit massive units
great cast! but so many funny mistakes - confusing the players, confusing the units. was great!
Lol I can just see it now. Terrans on balance committee say 1 or 2 aggressive things and then sit back and act all defensive until they get all or most of what they want then become aggressive again. Just like their play style. But yes emp should get nerf. At least half damage to shields or else feedback will be needed to be as well. But let's be far Protoss will be nerfed before they think about Terran nerf.