I was trained to cut tails first more than 30 years ago and cut dovetails that way for years. Then, about 20 years ago, I met Frank Klausz at a woodworking show and he showed me the advantage of cutting pins first. He cut the joint with only a backsaw, a chisel and a marking gauge, with nothing to mark angles. He did it by eye. So, I switched and have never gone back. The primary advantage of the pins-first method is that the pin board is resting on the tail board when marking the tails and the weight of the pin board helps hold it in the proper position during the marking process. No tape wall necessary, either. A couple of years ago, I had a minor comment war with another TH-cam creator (whose name will go unmentioned) because he was hawking a gadget that held the parts together during the tails-first marking process. My position is that if you need a single-purpose gadget to cut tails first then it can't possibly be the better method. Your offset method requires not one, but two such single-purpose gadgets. Our woodworking forebears didn't have these things and would have scoffed at us for using them. They got good at cutting dovetails by doing it over and over again. My suggestion, for those who really want to get good at cutting dovetails, is to rip some drawer box stock down to 4" wide and cut the joint. Then, the next day, cut off the pins and tails and cut the joint again in the same boards. And then do it again every day for a month. By the end of that month you will be cutting dovetails better and faster than when you started. Guaranteed. And no gadgets required. Edit to add: In my view, there's only one reason to cut tails first: you can clamp two tail boards together and cut them at the same time.
By using the tail first method you don't need any gadget neither, and the tail board is put horizontally on the pin board wich is more stable than putting the pin board vertically on the tail board
I just received my RC dovetail saw, and I'm shocked at how much better it is than my old one (from a different brand). At first, I thought it was just marketing hype, but now my tails and pins fit together perfectly. Thank you Rob! Your methods have enabled me to achieve things I never thought I could. Merry Christmas!
Superb comprehensive video demonstrating 3 methods for cutting precise dovetails. Wonderful explanations detailing the merits of each method and supported by great close up shots to highlight important cuts. As always, the Cosman Team provide such interesting and highly informative woodwork content. We are all most appreciative of everything you do to share such knowledge and promote wood craftsmanship. Seasons Greetings to the whole TEAM!!
Could you use the saw knife and a square to make your lines across the edge of the tail board, then come back with your dovetail marker and make your pen lines down to the marking gauge line? If you could do this it seems like you'd have the a saw kerf to drop your saw into, to with the advantage that the resulting cut should be across the board would be guaranteed square to the face of the board.
I wish I could take the class. I've gotten the dovetail saw, and the Shawn shim but I still end up having to either pare or have loose joints. I must be missing something small because otherwise my dovetails come out decent. I'll be happy when I've practiced enough to get perfect fit off the saw.
Cosman shoots and he scores! Hat trick play with the saw, Shawn shim and, marking gauge. Throw in a fret saw and your 90%Cosmanized. The only thing left is to buy the trend diamond stone and the 1600 stone and start sharpening like a pro. Last but is to buy IBC chisels and his mallet and your now shooting like Robbie. I personally am only holding out on the IBC. But my DT’s are getting looks from all my lady neighbors 😂
Without your instruction and videos I would have bought a porter cable jig and cut dovetails with a router. It’s definitely satisfying cutting the DT’s by hand. Hey look at that, even I can do it.
Great comparison. Not surprising that all of yours looked good. I tried the tails first, "England," method my first three practice tails. They were just ok for my first attempt. I tried the offset method using the your marking gauge, the way you used to do it. Again it was ok, better than the non-offset method. I ordered the Shawn shim and went straight to making a drawer for some shop furniture from some 3/8" fir I milled by hand. The dovetails were perfect, with the exception of the back of the drawer where I cut the tails off, cause I didn't mark my waste 😂. Thanks for teaching methods that make hobby woodworkers work better. I appreciate your commitment to the craft. Merry Christmas 🎄
You can 1: make the gadgets yourself; 2: use a wheel tipped marking gauge to set the offset. Both of the above are great when your saw kerf is different from Rob’s.
When I learned and started doing dovetails, it was the tails first. I tried doing the pins first and went back to tails first. The I watched your offset method and never looked back. I made my own kerf knife and marking template/guide because I could. The offset method was the best thing I discovered in dovetails, thanks Rob.
I beg to differ on the belief symmetrical is the most visually attractive. I personally prefer at least a 2:1 difference between tails & pins. Symmetrical looks exactly like machine made dovetails.
I love the offset method for teaching new students, but do you regularly take the time for it when doing your own work? I’m guessing you can give a scary glance at a board and the offending fibers part for you at this point.
HEADS UP! I just went to your store, and the Shawn Shim has an error in the descriptions; they are switched. The 5/8" has the description for the 3/4" and vise-versa. I'm sure that will create a disaster when people get something other than what they thought they were getting.
Why couldn't you use the saw blade itself to offset the board instead of the Shawn shim. I'm sure it would be a bit more awkward but you don't need a special tool. Also could you use the tip of your saw to mark the pin board with rather than an additional tool.
Yep, I actually started doing it that way and for me it was as not a problem. That said, I teach 65 year old students and it is a lot easier and more precise with a dedicated tool. Easier to hold, more precise and in the case of the Shawn Shim it pays a royalty to a combat wounded Vet who gave me the idea.
So every cross-cut saw should have a couple of inches of saw black, an inch or so high, beyond the spine, so you can break it off for the kerfing tool. Or buy a matched saw and tool from Rob!
@@GARDENER42 I've made saws from old saws, in particular, a resaw saw. I only mentioned cause Rob emphasized the importance of the kerf saw being the same width as the c rosscut saw.
Ordered your fret saw today and can’t wait to start making some dovetails with my kids. Saving up some money for the kerf blade and offset piece. Can’t wait. Great video.
Can't you just make your own poor man's Sean Shim by making 2 plum cuts in a piece of wood (taking out a small corner) and then reattach with some super glue? That should give you the same 1-kerf offset.
@@bigpicturethinking5620 I guess you didn't realise your comment failed to imply it's satirical nature. I guess some people aren't up to fully using the language to express their intent.
Let's reinvent the wheel to sell product ! Pins first in European countries ? No. Not always true. And certainly NEVER mark with a pencil. That's just an outright lie. In most cabinet shops the drawers would be cut tail's first ganged up to save time. The pins were marked directly from the chopped tail's with a sharp knife. But I'm not going to share the trade secret that comes before marking the tail's that makes the joint vastly stronger. It's what the self taught hobby guy's don't know that shows them falling short. As for the " doing it by eye " myth. Lol. Sure baby. The pin's are kept narrow purely for speed of chopping out tail waste. There is one other very good reason for thin pin's. Figure it out.
I was trained to cut tails first more than 30 years ago and cut dovetails that way for years. Then, about 20 years ago, I met Frank Klausz at a woodworking show and he showed me the advantage of cutting pins first. He cut the joint with only a backsaw, a chisel and a marking gauge, with nothing to mark angles. He did it by eye. So, I switched and have never gone back. The primary advantage of the pins-first method is that the pin board is resting on the tail board when marking the tails and the weight of the pin board helps hold it in the proper position during the marking process. No tape wall necessary, either. A couple of years ago, I had a minor comment war with another TH-cam creator (whose name will go unmentioned) because he was hawking a gadget that held the parts together during the tails-first marking process. My position is that if you need a single-purpose gadget to cut tails first then it can't possibly be the better method. Your offset method requires not one, but two such single-purpose gadgets. Our woodworking forebears didn't have these things and would have scoffed at us for using them. They got good at cutting dovetails by doing it over and over again. My suggestion, for those who really want to get good at cutting dovetails, is to rip some drawer box stock down to 4" wide and cut the joint. Then, the next day, cut off the pins and tails and cut the joint again in the same boards. And then do it again every day for a month. By the end of that month you will be cutting dovetails better and faster than when you started. Guaranteed. And no gadgets required. Edit to add: In my view, there's only one reason to cut tails first: you can clamp two tail boards together and cut them at the same time.
Opinions welcomed.
By using the tail first method you don't need any gadget neither, and the tail board is put horizontally on the pin board wich is more stable than putting the pin board vertically on the tail board
Thanks Rob, a great explaination and teaching video.
I just received my RC dovetail saw, and I'm shocked at how much better it is than my old one (from a different brand). At first, I thought it was just marketing hype, but now my tails and pins fit together perfectly. Thank you Rob! Your methods have enabled me to achieve things I never thought I could. Merry Christmas!
offset is my preference. cool tool!
Superb comprehensive video demonstrating 3 methods for cutting precise dovetails. Wonderful explanations detailing the merits of each method and supported by great close up shots to highlight important cuts.
As always, the Cosman Team provide such interesting and highly informative woodwork content. We are all most appreciative of everything you do to share such knowledge and promote wood craftsmanship. Seasons Greetings to the whole TEAM!!
Tails First!!!!! Always!!!! Offset Method!!!
Thanks, informative video, clearly the offset seems easier.
Your critique of your own work: “little bit of a gap.” Would that my dovetail gaps were that infinitesimal!
Would you show us how to make a dovetail marker?
I do like the offset method. It's very clever.
Guess using a pounce bag is a precursor, where you apply the offset by sawing to just kiss the resulting chalk lines on the waste side
Could you use the saw knife and a square to make your lines across the edge of the tail board, then come back with your dovetail marker and make your pen lines down to the marking gauge line? If you could do this it seems like you'd have the a saw kerf to drop your saw into, to with the advantage that the resulting cut should be across the board would be guaranteed square to the face of the board.
I wish I could take the class. I've gotten the dovetail saw, and the Shawn shim but I still end up having to either pare or have loose joints. I must be missing something small because otherwise my dovetails come out decent. I'll be happy when I've practiced enough to get perfect fit off the saw.
Do you have a marking knife with the same kerf width as the saw?
Cosman shoots and he scores! Hat trick play with the saw, Shawn shim and, marking gauge. Throw in a fret saw and your 90%Cosmanized. The only thing left is to buy the trend diamond stone and the 1600 stone and start sharpening like a pro. Last but is to buy IBC chisels and his mallet and your now shooting like Robbie. I personally am only holding out on the IBC. But my DT’s are getting looks from all my lady neighbors 😂
Is the online workshops done?
Thank you for such a helpful tutorial.
Without your instruction and videos I would have bought a porter cable jig and cut dovetails with a router. It’s definitely satisfying cutting the DT’s by hand. Hey look at that, even I can do it.
Comon. Rob enlighten me😂🎉
Great comparison. Not surprising that all of yours looked good.
I tried the tails first, "England," method my first three practice tails. They were just ok for my first attempt. I tried the offset method using the your marking gauge, the way you used to do it. Again it was ok, better than the non-offset method.
I ordered the Shawn shim and went straight to making a drawer for some shop furniture from some 3/8" fir I milled by hand. The dovetails were perfect, with the exception of the back of the drawer where I cut the tails off, cause I didn't mark my waste 😂.
Thanks for teaching methods that make hobby woodworkers work better. I appreciate your commitment to the craft.
Merry Christmas 🎄
I was about to reprise your dovetail video but this came up on my feed, so I'll stop here.
And this can all be done by purchasing all of Rob's specialty woodworking equipment!
You can 1: make the gadgets yourself; 2: use a wheel tipped marking gauge to set the offset. Both of the above are great when your saw kerf is different from Rob’s.
When I learned and started doing dovetails, it was the tails first. I tried doing the pins first and went back to tails first. The I watched your offset method and never looked back. I made my own kerf knife and marking template/guide because I could. The offset method was the best thing I discovered in dovetails, thanks Rob.
The "Rob Cosman" method
Thanks Rob. It always makes my day to see a new RC video has dropped.
Loved the knowledge share as always, Rob...
Rob, could you use your saw to offset the boards if you don't have a Sean shim?
No, your saw plate is thinner than the kerf itself, which would result in an inaccurate transfer
If I wanted the strongest dovetail joint my pin and tails will be of equal size. Also, most people like things that are symmetrical
I beg to differ on the belief symmetrical is the most visually attractive.
I personally prefer at least a 2:1 difference between tails & pins. Symmetrical looks exactly like machine made dovetails.
I love the offset method for teaching new students, but do you regularly take the time for it when doing your own work? I’m guessing you can give a scary glance at a board and the offending fibers part for you at this point.
HEADS UP! I just went to your store, and the Shawn Shim has an error in the descriptions; they are switched. The 5/8" has the description for the 3/4" and vise-versa. I'm sure that will create a disaster when people get something other than what they thought they were getting.
We just double checked and everything is accurate. The 3/4 Shawn Shim is 5/8” square and 1-1/4” long.
Why couldn't you use the saw blade itself to offset the board instead of the Shawn shim. I'm sure it would be a bit more awkward but you don't need a special tool. Also could you use the tip of your saw to mark the pin board with rather than an additional tool.
You can, however measure at the tooth kerf width rather than the plate width.
Yep, I actually started doing it that way and for me it was as not a problem. That said, I teach 65 year old students and it is a lot easier and more precise with a dedicated tool. Easier to hold, more precise and in the case of the Shawn Shim it pays a royalty to a combat wounded Vet who gave me the idea.
So every cross-cut saw should have a couple of inches of saw black, an inch or so high, beyond the spine, so you can break it off for the kerfing tool. Or buy a matched saw and tool from Rob!
It's not that hard to make one. Might not look as professional but mine (cut from an old, beyond repair saw) works fine.
@@GARDENER42 I've made saws from old saws, in particular, a resaw saw. I only mentioned cause Rob emphasized the importance of the kerf saw being the same width as the c rosscut saw.
Your teaching technique is just as spot on as your woodworking. Always clear and helpful. Definitely appreciated.
Ordered your fret saw today and can’t wait to start making some dovetails with my kids. Saving up some money for the kerf blade and offset piece. Can’t wait. Great video.
Thanks Rob.
Show how to dovetail a guitar neck ..... Peace ✌
My first dovetail was cut using the offset method and I couldn’t have been more pleased by the results!
Always tails!
Can't you just make your own poor man's Sean Shim by making 2 plum cuts in a piece of wood (taking out a small corner) and then reattach with some super glue? That should give you the same 1-kerf offset.
Tails, because you can cut two boards at the same time.
or four!
Come on, tails first or it’s wrong. Offset with your Shaun shim makes tails first easier to do well.
What does this guy know about hand cut dovetails?
Rather a lot - you?
Big Picture - Did you watch the video?
The answer is self-evident. 😀
Says the guy with 21 subscribers.
lol this post was satire. Of course I know RC is the Goat of dovetails. I guess people genuinely believe everything they read, literally.
@@bigpicturethinking5620 I guess you didn't realise your comment failed to imply it's satirical nature.
I guess some people aren't up to fully using the language to express their intent.
Let's reinvent the wheel to sell product !
Pins first in European countries ? No. Not always true. And certainly NEVER mark with a pencil. That's just an outright lie.
In most cabinet shops the drawers would be cut tail's first ganged up to save time.
The pins were marked directly from the chopped tail's with a sharp knife. But I'm not going to share the trade secret that comes before marking the tail's that makes the joint vastly stronger. It's what the self taught hobby guy's don't know that shows them falling short.
As for the " doing it by eye " myth. Lol. Sure baby.
The pin's are kept narrow purely for speed of chopping out tail waste. There is one other very good reason for thin pin's. Figure it out.
The offset method is way better for us carpenters-turned-woodworkers