They don't lie they just highlight, take out of context, and emotionally amplify things, but they always state facts, same with Fox they may present a conspiracy theory, however both sides are very careful with what they claim to be factual, that's why you gotta take it all in with a grain of salt, and whenever you begin to form an opinion do research to confirm your bias, and then play devil's advocate and try to find a report that states the opposite. You usually will and then from there you can compare the facts and then you have a non-biased opinion. If only we all did that
I think the point of it is that they could capture fully 3d images of a person in real time and display that "hologram" elsewhere, not that they could then display them in the real world
people in 2020 will probably be like: "I can't believe our parents had to see images directly on screens, so weird" "oh, yes. And Thor was a man" "A man?! you gotta be kiddin'"
SOME IMPORTANT QUESTIONS WE ALL SHOULD ASK OURSELVES ONCE IN A WHILE: What is the media? Who is it made of? Which are these people’s intentions, agendas, wills, desires? Does the media really “report the truth”? Or does it have the ability to freely manipulate it at its own will? How does the “Edit” function works inside the media’s activities?
@miniotte Nothing. You only see her as a 2D projection on the screen, not in real-life. The cameras (locally and remotely move the same way in order to get matching angles) and viewers see her but there's no projection ala Star Wars or anything. You can see a blue outline on her because she was recorded in front of a blue screen which is then removed in order to have transparency so you can see the new background where the blue would otherwise be.
i understand they can scan and send the data but how are they projecting/ displaying it? is there glass involved or is she being projected on a wall? how it that light being stoped in air???????
How are sound and image edited through television, radio, newspapers, magazines, etc? And which are some of its psychologycal effects? How do they operate and which are their side effects??? Who controls the media? Is there any kind of integrity control to it or is the media totally free to show us whatever it wants to whatever the way it desires to?
If you look closely and compare the scene from 0:42 to 1:04, her lower part is slowly going out of the red round light marker as the camera slowly moves. and also notice the movement of the camera is not as smooth as it's supposed to move, as if trying to synchronize to the angle of the "supposed" hologram's movement
@Hotpink066 I would say the projection of Miku Hatsune is the same as "Vocaloid Live Concert [Part 2]" which you can see at 2:02 in that video the camera angle changes and the panel is revealed. Shouldn't a REAL hologram be a 3D image projected into empty space?
@KingPadboy Wait, so if the autocue is not in the video how do you 100% know if there are directions on where to look for the "hologram"? That's why I asked you where the autocue was. Because you would only truly know if the autocue's text was displayed in the video. What you have is speculation & opinion.
Absotively, posilutely! Almost a decade ago, and this is what it was. CNN was forced to trot out a VP and the show producer, who both admitted it was made by taking live video of a person in front of a blue screen, then sending it to a computer at the Biltzer/Cooper studio HQ where a program would blend the two together. A strictly video composite. This is why Cooper proclaimed that "the attempt will now be made and .... yes... here he is !" But the figure had already "materialized" 5 seconds before. Very simply - the studio staff didn't get Cooper's timing cue right. As it is, CNN admitted it and that's on TH-cam. And, most importantly, the producer said he was invited to Israel and taught the technique by "Israeli military." Quote unquote. That's what makes this tech so dangerous - an event can be staged but the live visual content is something entirely different. If Israeli military was interested enough to get this far.... all militaries are. So stay alert - they're sure to use it somewhere. Happy 2017 !!
question to Oliver5893-what wud be the purpose of the hologram then? why couldnt they just do an overlay of the viseo file of her in chicago then just layer it on top of the video he is in?? what u are saying doesnt make sense
Wait, he could actually see her from where he was standing? Or was it only projected on the display screen? It looks like it projected her %10 smaller.
@WateryIce54321 Because it wasn't a hologram, it was a video overlay. The only thing that studio contains is that dot on the ground, and off camera there is a TV that wolf blitzer is looking at so he can "see" her.
@dvanhaut146 but what got you to that idea? for me the 1st video of the plane did not sound like a plane to me then the 2nd videos of the so called plane hitting wtc defies newtons law of motion and the saying is what ever technology you know is about they are at least 25 years ahead of what we know, plus a passanger plane can not do those speeds at those levels.
I'm willing to bet that its a new fancy blue/green video overlay. She's standing in an area mostly surrounded by blue/green screen and the image transmitted to New York is from the camera that they want to show you. The guy in New York saw nothing in front of him.
what we see here isn't what Wolf Blitzer there is seeing. It's a 3-d special effect but it's live. They're just putting the effect on tv screens. I even bet Wolf is looking past where she's supposed to be onto a monitor that shows her there and so he knows where to look, sort of like how actors have to act in a blue screen shot before the cgi is added but he had a monitor to look at.
It's more than JUST video keying since video keying works on one single video source. This uses multiple cameras that are keyed to remote cameras so that the keyed image "moves" according to the remote cameras to make it appear that the "holographic" person is actually occupying the space in the remote studio. It's more video keying mixed with James Cameron's technology that he used to make Avatar, except live. It's a cool progression of existing technology.
The thing you need to realize is that Wolf Blitzer COULD NOT SEE HER so it's not really a hologram. I'd call it a hologram simulation. It's cool that the cameras can pan around and her images is visible mid-room, but it's just a "key" as many have said, a tool available for decades.
This is a next generation use of the techology used to super-impose lines on a football field during a game. All the cameras have precision position encoders on the camera mounts. Data from camer mounts are mapped into 3D space by a computer in such a way that as the camera angles change, so changes the angle of the line super-imposed on the field also changes. End result - a line that looks painted right on the field to show touchdowns, kick-offs etc...
a few days ago in my science class we had a concave mirror and we put a little pig figure in there and then we put another concave mirror with a hole in the middle over it except we put it on vertically flipped and when you look at it at 45 degrees you can see the pig as a hologram but you cant touch it, it was amazing
a hologram is a 3d image reconstructed in the space with laser. The structure of the object to reproduce is caught by a single laser too. This person is caught by several cameras ad reconstructed with computer only on the screen of the television, not in real space
@airtwaine no he's probably seeing her on a screen or just pretending, the images were transmitted from a remote location to the studio, and then the corect angle was superimposed onto the studio FOOTAGE, not into the studio itself.
"There are 35 (thirty five!) HD cameras ringing me." They communicate to each other and they communicate to the cameras in NY." Why would they need to communicate to cameras in Blitzer's studio? Because they re projecting her hologram? No. No they were not. The cam video was going to a computer, then blended in, adding the plasma blue outline. Yellin was not visible to the LIAR Blitzer, who claims he sees her and she looks great! There was one camera left front on her, and of the 34 others, 4 at left rear were used, transitioning one to the next to give the impression of a "dimensional" image capture. They didn't even bother with that simple trick for the left front shot. Same deal with Wil.I Am non-appearing in front of the lamentable Anderson Cooper. That dummy started addressing the non-image he was told to pretend would be there before the "hologram" even appeared on the screen. CNN was challenged and a VP came out to admit it was all totally fake, and the producer said he was taught the technique by Israeli military infowarfare specialists. They got it from us.
Actually, the hologram in this situation uses the application of several different camera angles in a location far away from the actual transmission which also syncs up with the cameras at the studio to create an illusion of an actual person. In order to make "real life" yugioh using this method, you would first have to have a full scale model of the card in play and have it filmed with several angles, creating the hologram. A more practical application for real life yugioh would be a 3Dholoshow
@fatqwert200 It doesn't take 40 years to make a hologram. They have been making them since the 80s... They are just now creating interactive holograms. The only reason it's not widely used is because it costs too much.
What you are most likely referring to is the first HOUSEHOLD holographic television set. Also, of course she is in a fixed position, it was a prototype built 5 years ago that was only created for the basic holographic image without movement. The blue around her is because they do in fact have a blue screen in the studio she is standing in and they are using it to filter her image.
It's called TELEPRESENCE. It's a Cisco technology, demonstrated in numerous places and is as real as the hand on the end of your arm. Just search TH-cam for it -- you'll find it used in a presentation to the Saudi king, as well as to a room full of on-lookers in India.
i personally work on VFX and at 0:49 you can cleary see that this is made with motion control and motion graphics....she is standing in a greenscreen with a motion controlcamera moving around her. The special about MC is that you can save the cameramovement and load it up on an other camera. The thing that this is live is easily explained....she has an earplug with direct connection to the moderators microphone. if you combine everything, you have this result and it looks like a real hologram.
@KingPadboy I though It was clear she explained that it was on the cameras when she said "I'm told they 'talk' to the cameras in New York, so they move and they 'know' when move when the cameras in New York move". It's demonstrating the cameras tracking the red oval and projecting a "hologram" in real time through a computer, this is old technology now though (It's even used in most web camera applications now). It was however a little misleading the way they set it up.
Not a hologram, it's Augmented Reality. They have half the equation figured out and that's how to get the image, but they're missing the actual projection / projector. To see the software and how they did it check out a piece of freeware called ArtToolKit, and although this probably isn't exactly what they use it is a fun way to play with the tech yourself.
star wars holograms are being beamed through vast distances in space, the bandwidth required to transmit that much data is pretty advanced, not available at the moment
To clarify.. she is NOT visible in the studio. This isn't an actual "hologram"! Anyone who thinks it is wasn't listening. As she clearly explains, it's a hologram-effect video technique that involves synching camera movements and cuts, then genlocking the two video sources. The remote source is shot in front of a (curved) blue screen. The NY studio source is the base signal upon which the remote source is overlaid. It's live so it's cleaver (albeit somewhat quirky).. but it's not a hologram.
I don't see how having a blue screen makes it fake. In order to project the persons image and not everything the camera sees a blue or green screen would be needed.
She should have said, "help me obi wan kenobi you're my only hope."
"Alright, now what do I click?"
th-cam.com/video/gmVr0Hs0UaI/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=foxdigitalcopy
Why don't they focus on improving the accuracy of their reporting rather than making the studio look more and more like something from Mass Effect
They don't lie they just highlight, take out of context, and emotionally amplify things, but they always state facts, same with Fox they may present a conspiracy theory, however both sides are very careful with what they claim to be factual, that's why you gotta take it all in with a grain of salt, and whenever you begin to form an opinion do research to confirm your bias, and then play devil's advocate and try to find a report that states the opposite. You usually will and then from there you can compare the facts and then you have a non-biased opinion. If only we all did that
fake... this is just synching cameras for the audiences, he is not even seeing her
Most likely... After all it is CNN
So this type of hologram technology doesn’t exist then?
I think the point of it is that they could capture fully 3d images of a person in real time and display that "hologram" elsewhere, not that they could then display them in the real world
Help me O bi wan kinobi your my only hope!
LOL I thought of star wars too...
Now we don't even have to be in a certain location to lie to the public!
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. yeap that's the point, hahahahahahaha, take my like good man!!
Like when Nazi Germany used special pre-vinyl plastic devices to record his voice and broadcast his propaganda.
i feel like this is just an overlay for the tv viewer, Wolf prob doesnt see anything
JRE brought me here.
Same here
Tater salad...
yep
yup...Joe is the man.
same here lol
super fake LOL even the motion tracking tells it all
sssteven? wth are you doing here? I mean out of all places on this video
SCMowns Wrong
why did holograms never catch on?
people in 2020 will probably be like:
"I can't believe our parents had to see images directly on screens, so weird"
"oh, yes. And Thor was a man"
"A man?! you gotta be kiddin'"
Fabricio Araya uh
it's 2020 now and we dont have this :(
Still T.R.O.L.L
*2021 Forever!*
me in 2021: watching my 1080p iPad screen
SOME IMPORTANT QUESTIONS WE ALL SHOULD ASK OURSELVES ONCE IN A WHILE: What is the media? Who is it made of? Which are these people’s intentions, agendas, wills, desires? Does the media really “report the truth”? Or does it have the ability to freely manipulate it at its own will? How does the “Edit” function works inside the media’s activities?
The porn industry will make billions with this technology.
Now that the world hologram has been stolen to describe a technology that is not a hologram, we need a new word to reference actual holograms.
3D Rendering Light Projection Chaos Expansion unit?
@mersaphire how would you fit 30 plus hi definition cameras inside a phone or watch? the technology is is here, but it's not commercially viable.
@RATAPWNZU
What does it mean: "a blue screen overlay"?
Can it be green, too, for example?
Thank you!
in 10 years this will be as regular as owning a smartphone
Victor K November 2018 is 9 months away, and this seems unrealistic.
Gotta love the longevity of TH-cam comments 😂
*looks at video date* *looks at calendar date* 😬
Even better. 10 years later we have dabbing.
tis will be most likely used for porn....
There's already VR porn...
WE HAVE F****** STAR TREK TECHNOLOGY!!! (Almost)
Help me Obi Wan!
You're my only hope!
@TJTvHD A few reasons. For example: When the camera moves, the hologram appears to wiggle a bit, like a special effect.
I'll belive it when I see it.
Have they used this hologram since or was this the only time they did it?
They lied, like they always do. They never used holograms.
@Shiggity123 ok...you're making sense...but why can't he see her? doesnt the light sync up perfectly so that the RGB colors form a 3D image?
@MrAnory If you watch closely, you can tell it's a projection on a clear screen. A hologram doesn't need a screen to be projected.
@miniotte Nothing. You only see her as a 2D projection on the screen, not in real-life. The cameras (locally and remotely move the same way in order to get matching angles) and viewers see her but there's no projection ala Star Wars or anything. You can see a blue outline on her because she was recorded in front of a blue screen which is then removed in order to have transparency so you can see the new background where the blue would otherwise be.
@mike2511
they have, but they havn't done it live have they?
i understand they can scan and send the data but how are they projecting/ displaying it? is there glass involved or is she being projected on a wall? how it that light being stoped in air???????
How are sound and image edited through television, radio, newspapers, magazines, etc? And which are some of its psychologycal effects? How do they operate and which are their side effects??? Who controls the media? Is there any kind of integrity control to it or is the media totally free to show us whatever it wants to whatever the way it desires to?
If you look closely and compare the scene from 0:42 to 1:04, her lower part is slowly going out of the red round light marker as the camera slowly moves. and also notice the movement of the camera is not as smooth as it's supposed to move, as if trying to synchronize to the angle of the "supposed" hologram's movement
@Hotpink066
I would say the projection of Miku Hatsune is the same as "Vocaloid Live Concert [Part 2]" which you can see at 2:02 in that video the camera angle changes and the panel is revealed.
Shouldn't a REAL hologram be a 3D image projected into empty space?
So how does it work then? what's the difference between hologram and virtual presence? It looks pretty neat anyway
So what kind of technology do you think is used for vocaloid concerts, then
@KingPadboy Wait, so if the autocue is not in the video how do you 100% know if there are directions on where to look for the "hologram"? That's why I asked you where the autocue was. Because you would only truly know if the autocue's text was displayed in the video. What you have is speculation & opinion.
@Halo3Qc You must be referring to the "Pepper's Ghost" trick, it's been around for quite some time :P
So was this more augmented reality stuff or did Wolfman see what we were seeing?
When is this thing gona be on sale
This was 8 years ago.. imagine what they can do now
Absotively, posilutely! Almost a decade ago, and this is what it was. CNN was forced to trot out a VP and the show producer, who both admitted it was made by taking live video of a person in front of a blue screen, then sending it to a computer at the Biltzer/Cooper studio HQ where a program would blend the two together. A strictly video composite. This is why Cooper proclaimed that "the attempt will now be made and .... yes... here he is !" But the figure had already "materialized" 5 seconds before. Very simply - the studio staff didn't get Cooper's timing cue right. As it is, CNN admitted it and that's on TH-cam. And, most importantly, the producer said he was invited to Israel and taught the technique by "Israeli military." Quote unquote. That's what makes this tech so dangerous - an event can be staged but the live visual content is something entirely different. If Israeli military was interested enough to get this far.... all militaries are. So stay alert - they're sure to use it somewhere. Happy 2017 !!
@@Spherian7 I think they even didn't have to admit anything. It's obvious for anyone who have seen any bad chromakey.
@@theodoregideonshisha7919 And still nobody but us cares! It used to be "We, the People." Now it's just "the Wee People". Have a great day, T-bird!
question to Oliver5893-what wud be the purpose of the hologram then? why couldnt they just do an overlay of the viseo file of her in chicago then just layer it on top of the video he is in?? what u are saying doesnt make sense
How come TH-cam got rid of top comments?
what's that behind her at 0:49?
Wait, he could actually see her from where he was standing? Or was it only projected on the display screen? It looks like it projected her %10 smaller.
so how do they project it
What happened to those holograms?
@Destinyninja11 it is available for public use , as long as you have the cash... Holographic projection has bin around longer than you think ..
@yousofuentes When?
the contours of the thing is there because holograms need a key component to appear or else it will cease to even appear,so that is why they are there
@WateryIce54321 Because it wasn't a hologram, it was a video overlay. The only thing that studio contains is that dot on the ground, and off camera there is a TV that wolf blitzer is looking at so he can "see" her.
where did you get the pig hologram?
@KyonKun0993 how do you mean ? the live shows of hatune miku are projected as a hollogram though check some live vids if you dont believe me m8
@Halo3Qc actually high definition televisions were originally from JP so yeah.
the person at the right is taken from starwars. the person at the left is likely are augmented cgi scripted projection run by a neural net.
@dvanhaut146 but what got you to that idea? for me the 1st video of the plane did not sound like a plane to me then the 2nd videos of the so called plane hitting wtc defies newtons law of motion and the saying is what ever technology you know is about they are at least 25 years ahead of what we know, plus a passanger plane can not do those speeds at those levels.
I'm willing to bet that its a new fancy blue/green video overlay. She's standing in an area mostly surrounded by blue/green screen and the image transmitted to New York is from the camera that they want to show you. The guy in New York saw nothing in front of him.
so can you see this hologram off the tv? like if it were in front of you
what we see here isn't what Wolf Blitzer there is seeing. It's a 3-d special effect but it's live. They're just putting the effect on tv screens. I even bet Wolf is looking past where she's supposed to be onto a monitor that shows her there and so he knows where to look, sort of like how actors have to act in a blue screen shot before the cgi is added but he had a monitor to look at.
It's more than JUST video keying since video keying works on one single video source. This uses multiple cameras that are keyed to remote cameras so that the keyed image "moves" according to the remote cameras to make it appear that the "holographic" person is actually occupying the space in the remote studio. It's more video keying mixed with James Cameron's technology that he used to make Avatar, except live. It's a cool progression of existing technology.
Holograms have been around since the 1980s. There's a video from a guy from 1988 who demonstrates holograms
1st april ?
The thing you need to realize is that Wolf Blitzer COULD NOT SEE HER so it's not really a hologram. I'd call it a hologram simulation. It's cool that the cameras can pan around and her images is visible mid-room, but it's just a "key" as many have said, a tool available for decades.
i think the guy in the studio doesn't see her at all, it's all digitally put together and only the viewer can see the effect.
This is a next generation use of the techology used to super-impose lines on a football field during a game. All the cameras have precision position encoders on the camera mounts. Data from camer mounts are mapped into 3D space by a computer in such a way that as the camera angles change, so changes the angle of the line super-imposed on the field also changes. End result - a line that looks painted right on the field to show touchdowns, kick-offs etc...
a few days ago in my science class
we had a concave mirror and we put a little pig figure in there and then we put
another concave mirror with a hole in the middle over it
except we put it on vertically flipped
and when you look at it at 45 degrees
you can see the pig as a hologram
but you cant touch it, it was amazing
i've seen people say that, but dont you see wolf blitzer say "it looks like she was right here in the studio, it's pretty remarkable."?
a hologram is a 3d image reconstructed in the space with laser. The structure of the object to reproduce is caught by a single laser too. This person is caught by several cameras ad reconstructed with computer only on the screen of the television, not in real space
So, can he see her, or only us in TV land or TH-cam?
Whats new about it?
so now people can be at 2 places at the same time?
Send a video plz !
@airtwaine no he's probably seeing her on a screen or just pretending, the images were transmitted from a remote location to the studio, and then the corect angle was superimposed onto the studio FOOTAGE, not into the studio itself.
there's even a red dot on the floor for the computer to put her video over top... still slides all over the place.
"There are 35 (thirty five!) HD cameras ringing me." They communicate to each other and they communicate to the cameras in NY." Why would they need to communicate to cameras in Blitzer's studio? Because they re projecting her hologram? No. No they were not. The cam video was going to a computer, then blended in, adding the plasma blue outline. Yellin was not visible to the LIAR Blitzer, who claims he sees her and she looks great! There was one camera left front on her, and of the 34 others, 4 at left rear were used, transitioning one to the next to give the impression of a "dimensional" image capture. They didn't even bother with that simple trick for the left front shot. Same deal with Wil.I Am non-appearing in front of the lamentable Anderson Cooper. That dummy started addressing the non-image he was told to pretend would be there before the "hologram" even appeared on the screen. CNN was challenged and a VP came out to admit it was all totally fake, and the producer said he was taught the technique by Israeli military infowarfare specialists. They got it from us.
Actually, the hologram in this situation uses the application of several different camera angles in a location far away from the actual transmission which also syncs up with the cameras at the studio to create an illusion of an actual person. In order to make "real life" yugioh using this method, you would first have to have a full scale model of the card in play and have it filmed with several angles, creating the hologram. A more practical application for real life yugioh would be a 3Dholoshow
@fatqwert200 It doesn't take 40 years to make a hologram. They have been making them since the 80s... They are just now creating interactive holograms. The only reason it's not widely used is because it costs too much.
i kinda get the concept of this camera idea, but can the host dude actually see that jessica person?
People are still watching this. Even though its been 3 years! Because ive saw comments from 3 days ago!
She's not just there for the effect! She's discussing the election results!
What you are most likely referring to is the first HOUSEHOLD holographic television set. Also, of course she is in a fixed position, it was a prototype built 5 years ago that was only created for the basic holographic image without movement. The blue around her is because they do in fact have a blue screen in the studio she is standing in and they are using it to filter her image.
@RefreshChannel yeah there streaming it to , its this weekend .
So this means that Dr. Ron Paul that's running for presidential election in 2012 can eventually be projected in a tomogram? Very interesting...
guys she wasn't actually SEEN by him. only the cameras showed her, but she wasn't actually being projected into the studio
It's called TELEPRESENCE. It's a Cisco technology, demonstrated in numerous places and is as real as the hand on the end of your arm. Just search TH-cam for it -- you'll find it used in a presentation to the Saudi king, as well as to a room full of on-lookers in India.
i personally work on VFX and at 0:49 you can cleary see that this is made with motion control and motion graphics....she is standing in a greenscreen with a motion controlcamera moving around her. The special about MC is that you can save the cameramovement and load it up on an other camera. The thing that this is live is easily explained....she has an earplug with direct connection to the moderators microphone. if you combine everything, you have this result and it looks like a real hologram.
We all just forgot this happened.
Wow, this is great for the State Department, Education, Simulation Training, and Long Distance family communication, awesome.
haha, who would of guessed that you would see on the news one day " joining us via hologram" just amazing.
why do people think this is fake? what would be the reason of trying to fool everybody?
HELP ME WOLF BLITZER!! YOUR MY ONLY HOPE!!
it almost looks like they beamed her in with the chroma function, esp. since the cameras in NY were not rotating around her to show that it's 3d.
@LanteanKnight Technology like what?
so cute, they cling right back to that broken logic no matter how many times you tell them something otherwise.
@KingPadboy I though It was clear she explained that it was on the cameras when she said "I'm told they 'talk' to the cameras in New York, so they move and they 'know' when move when the cameras in New York move". It's demonstrating the cameras tracking the red oval and projecting a "hologram" in real time through a computer, this is old technology now though (It's even used in most web camera applications now). It was however a little misleading the way they set it up.
can they make hologram aircraft?
Tamamen sahte bu hologram gosterisi isikla siyah rengi nasil olusturdular
and Poland TVN24 is Second Hologram TV
Not a hologram, it's Augmented Reality.
They have half the equation figured out and that's how to get the image, but they're missing the actual projection / projector. To see the software and how they did it check out a piece of freeware called ArtToolKit, and although this probably isn't exactly what they use it is a fun way to play with the tech yourself.
is this for real or its just camera effects?
star wars holograms are being beamed through vast distances in space, the bandwidth required to transmit that much data is pretty advanced, not available at the moment
@rikpoog Yeah, we should show some respect for the incredibly obvious bluescreen effect.
To clarify.. she is NOT visible in the studio. This isn't an actual "hologram"! Anyone who thinks it is wasn't listening.
As she clearly explains, it's a hologram-effect video technique that involves synching camera movements and cuts, then genlocking the two video sources.
The remote source is shot in front of a (curved) blue screen. The NY studio source is the base signal upon which the remote source is overlaid.
It's live so it's cleaver (albeit somewhat quirky).. but it's not a hologram.
I don't see how having a blue screen makes it fake. In order to project the persons image and not everything the camera sees a blue or green screen would be needed.