+Edgehead10075 What I never understood is why ECW and WCW were put together. It made zero sense. ECW hated WCW....WWF funded ECW and put them on and gave them the exposure on Raw. But I get it, WCW lacked name value, severely. DDP, Booker T, that was it. Everyone else was like Kronik, Kanyon, Chavo, Hugh Morrus, some decent workers and all but didn't carry the name value that the WWF had on their side at the time which is why they were having WWF guys turn and join the Alliance. Having Austin join was honestly the worst, the only thing good that came out of that decision was WHAT!? That's it. Austin should have been neutral or at the very least on the WWF side of things because he hated WCW.
I probably would have just had it be a core group of maybe 6-7 guys. I would've used Shane as the leader bringing in Booker T, DDP, O'Hare, Palumbo, Kanyon, and Chavo. Kronik had a bad rep I guess at the time, they were asked to go to development to tighten up their skills but I'm sure being veterans they took that as a slap in the face so they were then released or quit shortly after the Taker/Kane match. I then would have had the ECW guys coming in kind of be the outcasts, attacking both sides and then have them eventually side with the WWF totally shutting down WCW completely. Then as the bigger names became available, I would have brought WCW back in 2002 with Flair, Hogan, Hall, Nash, Scott Steiner, and then had some of Shane's original guys like Booker T and DDP join up with them, I think Rey Misterio came in around this time as well and just did a huge ppv with WCW alumni v. WWF guys at WM. One thing they dropped the ball on was not doing Austin v. Hogan and doing Rock v. Hogan. It would've been awesome to have Hogan coming in and challenging Austin for the belt at WM 18. Goldberg I don't think came in until 2003, the night after Austin's last match which was unfortunate because if he was available the year prior, Austin v. Goldberg could've started after Austin beat Hogan at WM 18 and they could've battled at Summerslam for the belt.
To be honest I wouldn't have even done an invasion angle. I would have just brought in the WCW guys that were available and slowly blended them into the roster. Put the top guys on the main roster right off the bat like Booker T, Kanyon, DDP, everyone else in developmental. RVD and Dreamer came in shortly after, I would've done the same thing. If they wanted to do a real WCW v. WWF storyline, they should've waited BUT I get why they didn't. The original plan was to literally have WCW as it's own brand, like when they did the brand split the following year but the Booker T-Buff Bagwell match soured them on the idea. They didn't wait and again I get why, who knows if Hogan and them a year later would have even wanted to come in-I'm sure they would have but you never know if they wanted to or if they (WWF) could have afforded to bring them in.
He's right. There's no other way to put it. The Invasion Angle wasn't the dream WCW vs WWF war that we all wanted back then. It was Vince McMahon having a victory dance on WCW's rotting corpse. That was the purpose of it. It wasn't a last conflict with a worthy opponent, because in WWF culture there's rarely any such thing as a worthy opponent. It was quite simply a moment to bask in his own greatness and show that WCW was never anything but a bunch of clowns instead of the promotion that almost finished him off. Oh when he mentioned that dick measuring contest analogy he neglected to mention Vince's predilection for wanting chop off any longer than his so he can win. Search your feelings you know it to be true...or just rewatch the Kaientai vs Val Venis angle.
+3Rayfire Up untill the survivor series did you know that WWF and The Alliance were actually about equal when it came to wins in the ring. Which was fair i guess but it didn't work, The Alliance should have been dominating the WWF because that's how you build tension and make it seem like an actual threat.
Booker T was the only one Vince turned into a star he did alot in his time in WWE he headlined Wrestlemania, He won the World Title, the Booker T and Goldust tag team was sooooooooooooooooo funny they had GREAT Chemistry they were the second funnest team right behind The Rock & Sock Connection, and I loved him as King Booker "BATISTA IS DOWN!!!!!!! BATISTA IS DOWN!!!!!!!!! BATISTA IS DOWN!!!!!!!!!"
The problem is Hogan, Nash, Goldberg, Sting, Luger and Flair (or most of the big guys anyway) still had a valid contract with Time Warner (who owned WCW at the time of the sale), so most of them were paid well to sit at home and do NOTHING.
It's like Buff Bagwell said in his shoot interview, none of the fans in WCW during Russo and Ferrara's time booking cared about the young guys because they never used the veterans alongside the new blood to help put them over so when you have guys like Palumbo and Stasiak that not even the WCW fans cared about (as talented as they were), then what chance did they have with WWE fans who were trained to hate anything not McMahon-created for years?
Met Raven last week , seems pretty cool . I was excited to to get my pic with him cause he was one of the few original ECW guys i didnt have a pic with . He seemed bored or tired but he was in some bumfuck place in Kentucky ...so i dont blame him . I drove 45 min . to the show just to see him . However i did get to see my old trainer Jimmy Lamb ! Good guy , both of them .
I completely agree with Raven Vince had WCW in his hands, he could have made so much more money than he did with this angle back in 01 but he didn't run with it. WCW could have been respected and he could have walked away with a hell of a lot more money and a load of well built main event stars to play with heading into the future that maybe the roster wouldn't be so dilluted now.
If they waited a year nWo, Flair, Rey Misterio, Steiner, Goldberg all free. Invasion would have worked then. Oh hell give WCW smackdown or something and turn what brand expansion of Raw/Smackdown was. Build it back up then here comes hogan and guys. WWE says they tried getting it a show but they could have figured something out. Maybe my theory about vince buying WCW to bury it isn't that far off. Oh hell I still think Vince ECW back in 06 just to bury it.
SuperMutant2099 Raw was meant to be WCW's with Shane McManhon running it. Unfortunately Vince dropped the ball after wwf fans were booing and walking out of the Booker T vs Buff Bagwell match. Vince needed to realise that introducing wcw as a face group was never going to work. Over time they could have had face wrestlers in wcw that wwf fans would have grown to admire and respect (like ecw's RVD). The talent bought over was a shambolic roster and not an embodiment of wcw at all, they should have waited a year for Steiner, Mysterio, Flair, Goldberg the NWO etc. Sting also would have been on board if the Vince was serious about the wcw brand (Sting says this in an interview)
+SuperMutant2099 Only Top guy that was free was Hogan cause his WCW contract was ending. They could have started the Invasion with Hogan at Wrestlemania, come to help Shane win his match against his father.
Ironically, it was the Invasion angle and the closure of WCW and ECW that got me watching WWE again for the first time since it got horrible in September 97 As much as the Invasion sucked and was too one sided, it's still the best thing WWE has ever done
invasion angle was perfect if they didnt freaking unite WCW and ECW ppl woulda been more interested to watch 3 confliciting companies go at it rather than 2 sure it woulda been hard to book it, but ratings would go through the roof
there were many corporate stooges in multiple companies from the inside and businessmen on wallstreet who didn't care about thousands of people losing their jobs. as long as competition was dead and a once profitable becoming a major financial loss quickly disappeared to improve the appearance of their portfolio. no one was willing to make sacrifices for the greater good.
@HalloweenSnowglobe just because a lot of fans stopped watching WCW doesn't mean they wouldn't come back. WCW lost a lot of its audience because the stuff was very repetitive and eventually hard to watch. However, most fans wanted to see these two go at it and it would have brought back a lot of fans to wrestling. They could have gotten a solid year of very good business out of this storyline.
half of the entire WCW and ECW roster were singing "wind beneath my wings" or whatever that fucking song is called...... not only were they humiliated, but that to me, was down right insulting. If RAVEN were to have one last match, I would want to see him use vince mcmahon's brain matter splattered all over the canvas.
Austin Camarena awesome?! i just lived through it for the first time on the network and I'm embarassed. I now realize why i stopped watching in 2001, this was handled so awfully
obviously you're not a real fan! listen to the crowd at survivor series 2001, clearly they were into the storyline along with everyone else who was watching it
any wrestling mark would tell you this was one of the most botched angles of all time. Just look at survivor series and you see the problem. Team WCW consisted of Austin, Angle and Shane...don't you see an issue with that?
Adam Domo I see an issue with that. Kurt and Shane O'Mac never competed in WCW and Stone Cold was in the tag team division and is a mid-carder in WCW until they released him. Austin was never a main eventer in WCW and ECW.
@warriorofwrestling You make a valid point. I guess this was Vince's way of getting back at WCW after all those years. Heck even after the invasion angle ended, look at the all the WCW guys who came in later that he buried. Scott Steiner got buried, Kevin Nash too. Don't even get me started with Booker T and how long it took for him to get a proper push. That was the main reason Sting never came in btw, cuz he saw how Vince treated WCW talent.
Every WCW and ECW wrestler I've heard talk about this issue all had similar opinions. Sting was smart enough not to accept Vince's offer and stayed out of WWE because he would have been ruined just like the others. Vince wanted his WWE guys to remain on top
@DrGnockerz i agree. and when Austin jumped on "alliance" he was Star of the group and rest of alliance was group of no bodys...that it felt like back 2001.
@MagicKirin Only reason Raven didn't draw in WCW was because the "top" talent, and I use the term loosely, held down the mid card guys and hogged up 90% of the spot light. That being said, Raven was extremely over with the fans in WCW as a face and a heel.
Omg how amazing would that have been! WCW, WWE, ECW all with their own brands etc but all under the same company allowing for small invasions, inter brand matches, space to allow natural talent to come up through the ranks. ECW for the adults. WWE for the Cena nation (pg) and WCW for the old school type wrestling. Would have been totally amazing..why wern't you the writer damn it!!!
they really should have held off a year or two on the invasion, if you look at all the people that eventually surfaced in WWE hogan, goldberg, steiner, flair, nash and bischoff. if they waited until they got hold of those guys and planned it a bit better, it could have been the biggest thing ever
@Clintbdee You have a point, which is why I believe that the invasion angle should have never happened. If you cannot do it well, then don't do it at all. Now, what they could have done is brought WCW back as a stand-alone wrestling organization, but they stupidly assumed that it wouldn't work due to the poor response to Bagwell vs. Booker T on Raw, as if that was representative of all that WCW could have been.
Invasion was the last straw for me. I tuned out before it got heavy, but that was the last of my pro wrestling fandom. RIP Superstar Era. RIP Attitude Era. I dare the current or next generation to do better.
My only problem with the Invasion angle was putting strictly WWF guys like Christian, Test, Stone Cold (they could have at least made him "Stunning" Steve Austin for the angle). It watered the whole thing down. The problem was therewasn't enough guys to create another faction so there wasn't much that could be done.
He's right, there was a lot botched on that. The biggest screw of the pooch was not giving WCW and ECW their own shows, run by the people that knew the brands best. Vince had the choice of running his own competition, or just killing it. Just like Raven says, he had to prove that WWE was the king, which ruined the whole thing. Typical money man that has forgotten that not everyone wants to watch the same old stuff.
Despite the fact they should've waited on the angle, they could've still pulled off a halfway decent Invasion with what they had. Benoit and Triple H were injured. The Rock was out making movies. This was a perfect time to show that the WWE was "weakened". WWE had about 6 main eventers at that time; Austin, Angle, Undertaker and back burners such as Jericho, Kane and Big Show.
@BenjaminFrankenstein Are you serious? Hogan turning into a heel never worked? Hogan turning heel in 1996 and joining the nWo was the angle that revitalized interest in wrestling in the late 90s. Hogan was getting stale as a face, so they turned him heel and ended up dominating in the ratings for quite some time. Turning a long time face into a heel is an effective move because it's such a shock to see your favorite hero becoming a villain.
TNA has it's moments and there's still the indies to watch. ROH and CZW are both good. I've heard good things about PWG, but haven't really seen any of their stuff yet. I have plans for my own fed, but don't have the money. Since Tommy Dreamer is trying to get his own started I would probably try and buy his, or work out a partnership, if I did have the money. Problem is I don't think I could pull off what I want to do for less than one or two million to cover the first couple of years.
@cmpody I didn't say Nash got buried. I said his style didn't fit well with the WWE guys and yes I know he was injured during most of his stint. Booker was put in fueds with Rock and Austin, but he was made to look weak as hell in those fueds if you recall. From Austin throwing him around in a grocery store, to needing Shane to help him against the Rock. He didn't really get crediblity until the King Booker angle some 5 years into his WWE run.
If an unknown wrestling company in TNA were given a deal then it is very reasonable to think a television network would not have given wcw which already had such a large fan base one. Wcw didn't quite go 'bust', they made more losses than gains but Ted Turner always pumped money into it so it didn't matter. It finished because of the AOL/Time Warner merge so Ted did not have the full say on keeping it. It was worthless without a tv deal but they would have got one eventually
(cont) Sting didn't join because he knew what Vince was like and Mike Awesome said himself how there was so much politics backstage and that he was happy when they told him he was gone. Vince pissed all over WCW and bought it out knowing full well that he would no longer have competition and that many wrestlers would be out of jobs. His announcement "I now own wcw in the palm of my hands" made me sick to my stomach
Put Nitro on instead of Smackdown and ECW TV instead of Heat. Give each show 4 PPVs a year and have stuff from all of them on Wrestlemania. Then have a cross over show every year. Maybe even use the draft idea to let wrestlers switch shows when THEY wanted to. No, it wouldn't have been hard. It would have made him a LOT more money and people would have been able to watch what they wanted. But Vince let his ego get in the way like he always does.
Vince could have made money if they did the angle right, besides majority of there big stars like hogan,nash,hall, savage, luger they were in wwe before anyway and got there name big, besides goldberg hall nash hogan an others eventually came to wwe a year or so later
The original plan for the invasion angle was for the alliance to be the face & vinces wwf as its heel (of course its no wonder that plan got nixed) the second idea was for the alliance to have smackdown as its base of operations & raw as wwf's (if this plan ran through all throughout 2001 then by 2002 they could have had both flair & the nwo in the storyline.) in the mean time they could have had a wolfpac vs nWo type feud within the alliance with wcw wrestlers facing off against ecw wrestlers
if it had been sold to anyone else (bischoff was next in line), they would have lost their tv slot, so, no, the wrestlers would not have had a future. all he would have been purchasing would be the video library + the rights to character trademarks. want to try again? if it were a game, why even bother? as i said, vince gave wcw more time than they ever would have had without him.
@sagehiphop I don't mean to argue but I think jericho should be on team WCW. Even though he was treated like dirt in WCW compared to his early run in WWF, Chris Jericho is still remembered for his run in WCW and even ECW. Jericho definite should have joined the alliance quite frankly.
I'm not sure I agree with everything you say. I believe that the documentary was Vince basically rewriting history by suggesting it wasn't an ego-boost and it was 'just business as usual' which is just plain wrong. He knew he mis-treated the brand and wasted it. Your last point makes sense though, the whole invasion angle where everyone was celebrating when the 'good guys' thrashed the competition instead of showing gratitude to wcw and ecw now that they were gone showed that.
@bizzles44 thats what it should have been I agree. Buff bagwell was supposed to be in the invasion storyline and on the wcw team .... they replaced him with rhyno cause wwf sacked bagwell before he even started. And he was supposed to have a feud with jericho. hogan, goldberg and scott steiner did all came to the wwf so I kinda wish vince held the invasion storyline when it was good and ready instead of rushing it. If it was in 2002 then hbk would have to go on the wwf team.
Eh, That's speculation. Someone could have bought it for 5mil i.e. the Jarrett's, Dixie, etc. and they wouldn't have had to use still pictures for 5 years, and could have used the archived tapes for DVD and other merchandising type sales. There was still value to be had without a TV time slot.
As you're such a know-it-all I assumed you read books on this issue and knew that once the buyout was announced wcw would have to start operating as a business rather than Ted Turner's toy. I believe Bischoff learnt from his mistakes which is why he was willing to put his own money into it. He was offered to buy it with no television deal but if he had bought the rights then for sure he would have got one. People were still very interested in the brand, it's just too much money was wasted
The Invasion storyline was a great idea, but they didn't have the right players to make it work. Having Austin apart of WCW was stupid. Think about if they had Goldberg and Hogan and Flair at the time of the storyline. IT could have been done so much better. IF they had bought out all the contracts WCW had with Time Warner
The whole problem with the invasion angle was that Sting did not come along and lead the WCW crew. He was too big at the time to bury. I mean he was just as big as The Rock or Steve Austin at the time.
+spaceman pimpin lol...Sting was NEVER as big as The Rock or Austin...that is just absurd. At this point the crow angle had been really played out too and was dull as shit, so I know no idea what you are talking about saying he was just as big as Austin and the Rock when he was running on fumes at the end of WCW. (to be fair all the main event stuff was by then because it had literally barely changed since since the NWO Invasion.) Originally the Sting angle was big, but your memory is fuzzy if you think it was ever over as much as Austin and The Rock would end up being.
1997 Sting was the most over person in wrestling. If we are talking about peaks, you are right that he never reached Ausin/Rock's peak level, but considering they are both all time top 5 that isn't a knock against Sting.
Sad part is once WCW was bought out and killed wrestling just stopped being the same. Ceased to be fun anymore. Kind of like how music in the 80s was all about having a good time. Then the 90s came and it was all about felling sorry for yourself and hating everyone. Just one big buzz kill.
Instead, they decided to water it down by tacking ECW on there, which completely killed the Monday Night Wars feel. On top of things, WWE decided to make guys like Booker T and DDP look like complete jokes. The cherry on the turd was having WWE guys like Angle and Austin (he was always seen as a WWE guy since his WCW run sucked) join the alliance, as well as it being under the guidance of the McMahons.
IDk why people whine about the invasion angle i throught it was great and how did the wcw guys and ecw guys job to wwe? They won alot of matches againts wwe guys they had the wwe title tag team titles european title and ic title . They had a great showing dominated wwe for months so they lost at survivor series thats consided jobbing? Hell no its not Booker t vs the rock They put on a damn classic match
It sucks for somebody like Raven who never got the right push. BUT... to be honest WCW was a shit show by the time WWE bought it out... all the NWO hype was dead already Jarrett and Sid were wrestling for the strap n shit it was awful. I personally feel like with all the talent WWE aquired between WCW & ECW and what they already had it was ALOT on theyre plate. and i think we got to see everybody wrestle people they wouldnt have before. Invasion was still a great time in wrestling.
@warriorofwrestling Well alot of those guys were still under contract with AOL Time Warner and didn't want their contracts bought out. Had Vince waited a year or so to do the angle, all those guys would have been around. But he was desperate. You gotta remember in 2001, Rock was gone to do a movie, Triple H and Benoit both got hurt, he was hurting for talent so he jumped the gun on the angle.
TEAM WCW: Hogan, Goldberg, Booker T, Scott Steiner, Sting vs The Rock, Kurt Angle, Stone Cold, Undertaker & Kane. nWo hall and nash vs hhh and shawn DX jericho vs eddy guerrero (wcw) that woulda been the shit
@bizzles44 eddie was injured, hogan, goldberg, steiner had the rest of the 1 year contracts with Turner to finish and sting never wanted to come. so kinda hard tbh
What we should've gotten was a bunch of angry disgruntled WCW guys who basically acted like a loosely organized group use guerrilla warfare to help dismantle WWE. Divide the lockeroom, then spring your trap. Over that course of time, you can bring in more names, evenutally building towards the nWo angle again.
@cmpody Not just HHH. Benoit went out soon after as well, not to mention Rock was out for a few months doing a movie. The cupboard was getting pretty bare. All he had for that period was Austin, Taker, Kane, Jericho, and Angle as far as main eventers. Just a shame, could have been one of teh biggest moments in wrestling history.
EVERYONE who watched the monday night wars remembers the big dream match that everyone wanted to see from 97-2002, Goldberg vs Austin. That bitch mcmahon didnt even do it. The rock vs RVD, I dont remember seeing that one either
Goldberg vs Austin, Sting vs Undertaker, Hogan vs Mankind, Big Show vs Undertaker, Hall vs The Rock, Hall & Nash vs Brother's Of Destruction, Lex Luger vs HHH, Hogan vs The Rock, Sid Vicious vs Big Show/Kane, Kevin Nash vs Kane, Sting vs The Rock,.
Can someone explain to me why the Invasion storyline is so criticized. From what I remmeber it was one of my favorite moments of wwf, seeing wcw guys face wwe guys etc
No he didn't quite put them out of business, but if it had been sold to ANYONE else then the wrestlers still would have had a future and it wouldn't just be Mcmanhon's way. Ecw had folded two weeks prior so it was a terrible time to be a performer and it was the worse case scenario that Vince had bought wcw. I think the way Vince dealed with the Invasion angle suggested that it was all just a game to him and the comment he made epitomised that, regardless of the intention at the time.
'more losses than gains' certainly does matter. turner 'pumping more money in' is not any kind of business model. and of course, now he wasn't around anymore, either. i say again; bischoff didn't think it was worth it. i don't think 'eventually' would have done anything for the wrestlers' confidence (or bank accounts). vince had them working, at least. i have a hard time seeing that as malice.
@dane21dc Actually Sting has said he's never went to WWE for those exact reasons. He's felt if he went there he would've basically been the new guy and was unsure if success would continue. That's why he's stayed away. I agree I doubt Vince would've shit on him had he gone to WWE but Sting had his own concerns and was being cautious.
@cmpody I'm not saying Booker should went over Rock. I'm saying he could have looked stronger in that fued. Only time he ever got the better of Rock was Shane was helping him jump and shit. He was made look weak and second rate. You knew there wasn't a chance in hell he'd ever beat him. The worse was the Triple H fued in 2003. He actually had the fans behind him at that point and he was made to look inferior as hell in that fued.
Why did he not just keep WCW (and ECW for that matter) as a seperate entity? Instead of having "Raw" and "Smackdown" he should have kept WCW as an entity. Only have "inter promotion" matches at maybe Survivor Series every year, and the occasionial Mania? Have a guy occasionally "jump ship" and stuff, but for the most part keep them seperate. Why not just replace Ted Turner and step back and let the "WCW people" still run the show and everything?
@HWJASURY i said chris or Kurt at the time they were one of the top draws for wwe. Chris made a bigger impact in wwe. When you think of WCW though Chris Jericho name doesnt pop up right away...
just look at how they handled DDP and you see what vince thought of WCW and how much time he put into the invasion concept
Adam Domo DDP could have been so over in WWE too...they stripped away his character and it never really felt the same the short time he was there
Adam Domo He was the STALKER!
+Edgehead10075 What I never understood is why ECW and WCW were put together. It made zero sense. ECW hated WCW....WWF funded ECW and put them on and gave them the exposure on Raw. But I get it, WCW lacked name value, severely. DDP, Booker T, that was it. Everyone else was like Kronik, Kanyon, Chavo, Hugh Morrus, some decent workers and all but didn't carry the name value that the WWF had on their side at the time which is why they were having WWF guys turn and join the Alliance. Having Austin join was honestly the worst, the only thing good that came out of that decision was WHAT!? That's it. Austin should have been neutral or at the very least on the WWF side of things because he hated WCW.
I probably would have just had it be a core group of maybe 6-7 guys. I would've used Shane as the leader bringing in Booker T, DDP, O'Hare, Palumbo, Kanyon, and Chavo. Kronik had a bad rep I guess at the time, they were asked to go to development to tighten up their skills but I'm sure being veterans they took that as a slap in the face so they were then released or quit shortly after the Taker/Kane match. I then would have had the ECW guys coming in kind of be the outcasts, attacking both sides and then have them eventually side with the WWF totally shutting down WCW completely. Then as the bigger names became available, I would have brought WCW back in 2002 with Flair, Hogan, Hall, Nash, Scott Steiner, and then had some of Shane's original guys like Booker T and DDP join up with them, I think Rey Misterio came in around this time as well and just did a huge ppv with WCW alumni v. WWF guys at WM. One thing they dropped the ball on was not doing Austin v. Hogan and doing Rock v. Hogan. It would've been awesome to have Hogan coming in and challenging Austin for the belt at WM 18. Goldberg I don't think came in until 2003, the night after Austin's last match which was unfortunate because if he was available the year prior, Austin v. Goldberg could've started after Austin beat Hogan at WM 18 and they could've battled at Summerslam for the belt.
To be honest I wouldn't have even done an invasion angle. I would have just brought in the WCW guys that were available and slowly blended them into the roster. Put the top guys on the main roster right off the bat like Booker T, Kanyon, DDP, everyone else in developmental. RVD and Dreamer came in shortly after, I would've done the same thing. If they wanted to do a real WCW v. WWF storyline, they should've waited BUT I get why they didn't. The original plan was to literally have WCW as it's own brand, like when they did the brand split the following year but the Booker T-Buff Bagwell match soured them on the idea. They didn't wait and again I get why, who knows if Hogan and them a year later would have even wanted to come in-I'm sure they would have but you never know if they wanted to or if they (WWF) could have afforded to bring them in.
Raven has always been one of the most underrated wrestlers I've ever personally watched.
He's right. There's no other way to put it. The Invasion Angle wasn't the dream WCW vs WWF war that we all wanted back then. It was Vince McMahon having a victory dance on WCW's rotting corpse. That was the purpose of it. It wasn't a last conflict with a worthy opponent, because in WWF culture there's rarely any such thing as a worthy opponent. It was quite simply a moment to bask in his own greatness and show that WCW was never anything but a bunch of clowns instead of the promotion that almost finished him off.
Oh when he mentioned that dick measuring contest analogy he neglected to mention Vince's predilection for wanting chop off any longer than his so he can win. Search your feelings you know it to be true...or just rewatch the Kaientai vs Val Venis angle.
+3Rayfire Up untill the survivor series did you know that WWF and The Alliance were actually about equal when it came to wins in the ring. Which was fair i guess but it didn't work, The Alliance should have been dominating the WWF because that's how you build tension and make it seem like an actual threat.
+3Rayfire Their were thoughts that WCW would be ran as a separate entity like how WWF did Smackdown and NXT.
I wish they would have chosen that route.
Yeah, No Sane Person With A Functioning Brain Thought That Invasion Was Great Or Fair.
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Vince couldn't book an invasion angle if his life depended on it
Scott Levy is one of the smartest people to ever be associated with wrestling. Glad I finally find a video with his invasion thoughts.
Raven told the truth and I don't care what anyone says
Yes, Yes, Yes. This Deserves A Yes Movement.
The guy is deep...so sad to think about what could have been
If wcw was ever revive the person who be best for Booker would be raven. He sure know how to have good angle stories.
Booker T was the only one Vince turned into a star he did alot in his time in WWE he headlined Wrestlemania, He won the World Title, the Booker T and Goldust tag team was sooooooooooooooooo funny they had GREAT Chemistry they were the second funnest team right behind The Rock & Sock Connection, and I loved him as King Booker "BATISTA IS DOWN!!!!!!! BATISTA IS DOWN!!!!!!!!! BATISTA IS DOWN!!!!!!!!!"
The problem is Hogan, Nash, Goldberg, Sting, Luger and Flair (or most of the big guys anyway) still had a valid contract with Time Warner (who owned WCW at the time of the sale), so most of them were paid well to sit at home and do NOTHING.
Raven has one of the best minds for wrestling...period.
We're thinking of doing a follow-up. If this comment gets enough LIKES we'll move forward and post it here.
It's like Buff Bagwell said in his shoot interview, none of the fans in WCW during Russo and Ferrara's time booking cared about the young guys because they never used the veterans alongside the new blood to help put them over so when you have guys like Palumbo and Stasiak that not even the WCW fans cared about (as talented as they were), then what chance did they have with WWE fans who were trained to hate anything not McMahon-created for years?
Raven belongs in the fuckin wwe hall of fame. He is a legend of hardcore wrestling.
One of the real ECW Originals!
Raven is a wrestling god. Please come back as a booker/performer to tna/wwe Scotty!
Met Raven last week , seems pretty cool . I was excited to to get my pic with him cause he was one of the few original ECW guys i didnt have a pic with . He seemed bored or tired but he was in some bumfuck place in Kentucky ...so i dont blame him . I drove 45 min . to the show just to see him . However i did get to see my old trainer Jimmy Lamb ! Good guy , both of them .
I completely agree with Raven
Vince had WCW in his hands, he could have made so much more money than he did with this angle back in 01 but he didn't run with it. WCW could have been respected and he could have walked away with a hell of a lot more money and a load of well built main event stars to play with heading into the future that maybe the roster wouldn't be so dilluted now.
You knew where this shoot was going when the interviewer's first question contains the word "fuck"
If they waited a year nWo, Flair, Rey Misterio, Steiner, Goldberg all free. Invasion would have worked then. Oh hell give WCW smackdown or something and turn what brand expansion of Raw/Smackdown was. Build it back up then here comes hogan and guys. WWE says they tried getting it a show but they could have figured something out. Maybe my theory about vince buying WCW to bury it isn't that far off. Oh hell I still think Vince ECW back in 06 just to bury it.
SuperMutant2099 that cash grab went sour fast tho
SuperMutant2099 Raw was meant to be WCW's with Shane McManhon running it. Unfortunately Vince dropped the ball after wwf fans were booing and walking out of the Booker T vs Buff Bagwell match.
Vince needed to realise that introducing wcw as a face group was never going to work. Over time they could have had face wrestlers in wcw that wwf fans would have grown to admire and respect (like ecw's RVD). The talent bought over was a shambolic roster and not an embodiment of wcw at all, they should have waited a year for Steiner, Mysterio, Flair, Goldberg the NWO etc. Sting also would have been on board if the Vince was serious about the wcw brand (Sting says this in an interview)
+SuperMutant2099 Only Top guy that was free was Hogan cause his WCW contract was ending. They could have started the Invasion with Hogan at Wrestlemania, come to help Shane win his match against his father.
Ironically, it was the Invasion angle and the closure of WCW and ECW that got me watching WWE again for the first time since it got horrible in September 97
As much as the Invasion sucked and was too one sided, it's still the best thing WWE has ever done
You start the ballot we'll sign it!
invasion angle was perfect if they didnt freaking unite WCW and ECW
ppl woulda been more interested to watch 3 confliciting companies go at it rather than 2
sure it woulda been hard to book it, but ratings would go through the roof
there were many corporate stooges in multiple companies from the inside and businessmen on wallstreet who didn't care about thousands of people losing their jobs. as long as competition was dead and a once profitable becoming a major financial loss quickly disappeared to improve the appearance of their portfolio. no one was willing to make sacrifices for the greater good.
@HalloweenSnowglobe just because a lot of fans stopped watching WCW doesn't mean they wouldn't come back. WCW lost a lot of its audience because the stuff was very repetitive and eventually hard to watch. However, most fans wanted to see these two go at it and it would have brought back a lot of fans to wrestling. They could have gotten a solid year of very good business out of this storyline.
half of the entire WCW and ECW roster were singing "wind beneath my wings" or whatever that fucking song is called......
not only were they humiliated, but that to me, was down right insulting.
If RAVEN were to have one last match, I would want to see him use vince mcmahon's brain matter splattered all over the canvas.
funny thing is, chris jericho also mentioned if he had known what wcw was being sold for he wouldve tried to buy it
the invasion storyline was awesome!! the last hoorah to the attitude era
The Attitude Era ended on April Fools Day 2001.
Austin Camarena awesome?! i just lived through it for the first time on the network and I'm embarassed. I now realize why i stopped watching in 2001, this was handled so awfully
obviously you're not a real fan! listen to the crowd at survivor series 2001, clearly they were into the storyline along with everyone else who was watching it
any wrestling mark would tell you this was one of the most botched angles of all time. Just look at survivor series and you see the problem. Team WCW consisted of Austin, Angle and Shane...don't you see an issue with that?
Adam Domo I see an issue with that. Kurt and Shane O'Mac never competed in WCW and Stone Cold was in the tag team division and is a mid-carder in WCW until they released him. Austin was never a main eventer in WCW and ECW.
@warriorofwrestling You make a valid point. I guess this was Vince's way of getting back at WCW after all those years. Heck even after the invasion angle ended, look at the all the WCW guys who came in later that he buried. Scott Steiner got buried, Kevin Nash too. Don't even get me started with Booker T and how long it took for him to get a proper push. That was the main reason Sting never came in btw, cuz he saw how Vince treated WCW talent.
Then he finally did sign with WWE and they did to him exactly what he said they would do.
Every WCW and ECW wrestler I've heard talk about this issue all had similar opinions. Sting was smart enough not to accept Vince's offer and stayed out of WWE because he would have been ruined just like the others. Vince wanted his WWE guys to remain on top
@DrGnockerz i agree. and when Austin jumped on "alliance" he was Star of the group and rest of alliance was group of no bodys...that it felt like back 2001.
@MagicKirin Only reason Raven didn't draw in WCW was because the "top" talent, and I use the term loosely, held down the mid card guys and hogged up 90% of the spot light. That being said, Raven was extremely over with the fans in WCW as a face and a heel.
Omg how amazing would that have been! WCW, WWE, ECW all with their own brands etc but all under the same company allowing for small invasions, inter brand matches, space to allow natural talent to come up through the ranks. ECW for the adults. WWE for the Cena nation (pg) and WCW for the old school type wrestling. Would have been totally amazing..why wern't you the writer damn it!!!
Might be the most underrated wrestler ever
Awesome performer both in ring and out, he should never quit wrestling! I agree with everything he said!
they really should have held off a year or two on the invasion, if you look at all the people that eventually surfaced in WWE hogan, goldberg, steiner, flair, nash and bischoff. if they waited until they got hold of those guys and planned it a bit better, it could have been the biggest thing ever
@Clintbdee You have a point, which is why I believe that the invasion angle should have never happened. If you cannot do it well, then don't do it at all. Now, what they could have done is brought WCW back as a stand-alone wrestling organization, but they stupidly assumed that it wouldn't work due to the poor response to Bagwell vs. Booker T on Raw, as if that was representative of all that WCW could have been.
i thought the invasion angle was interesting to say the least.
Ediition_x It was promising but when it was all said and done, it left a very bitter taste in people's mouths
+Samuel Coe ok wrestling with regret
Raven vs Cena would have been the best thing since Rock vs Steve Austin. Two Completely different personalities clashing. Would have been brilliant.
Invasion was the last straw for me. I tuned out before it got heavy, but that was the last of my pro wrestling fandom.
RIP Superstar Era.
RIP Attitude Era.
I dare the current or next generation to do better.
funny when raven was johnny polo
My only problem with the Invasion angle was putting strictly WWF guys like Christian, Test, Stone Cold (they could have at least made him "Stunning" Steve Austin for the angle). It watered the whole thing down. The problem was therewasn't enough guys to create another faction so there wasn't much that could be done.
He's right, there was a lot botched on that. The biggest screw of the pooch was not giving WCW and ECW their own shows, run by the people that knew the brands best. Vince had the choice of running his own competition, or just killing it. Just like Raven says, he had to prove that WWE was the king, which ruined the whole thing. Typical money man that has forgotten that not everyone wants to watch the same old stuff.
Amen Raven.
Despite the fact they should've waited on the angle, they could've still pulled off a halfway decent Invasion with what they had. Benoit and Triple H were injured. The Rock was out making movies. This was a perfect time to show that the WWE was "weakened". WWE had about 6 main eventers at that time; Austin, Angle, Undertaker and back burners such as Jericho, Kane and Big Show.
Hell, WWE Still Had More Top Stars Without The Rock & HHH. Austin, Undertaker, Kane, Big Show, Then Angle & Jericho. WCW Only Had DDP, Then Booker T.
"You Know."
Sting, Goldberg, DDP, Scott Steiner, Booker T vs Undertaker, The Rock, Stone Cold, Triple H, Chris Jericho or Kurt Angle
Quote the Raven never more
i am the raven
@BenjaminFrankenstein Are you serious? Hogan turning into a heel never worked? Hogan turning heel in 1996 and joining the nWo was the angle that revitalized interest in wrestling in the late 90s. Hogan was getting stale as a face, so they turned him heel and ended up dominating in the ratings for quite some time. Turning a long time face into a heel is an effective move because it's such a shock to see your favorite hero becoming a villain.
TNA has it's moments and there's still the indies to watch. ROH and CZW are both good. I've heard good things about PWG, but haven't really seen any of their stuff yet.
I have plans for my own fed, but don't have the money. Since Tommy Dreamer is trying to get his own started I would probably try and buy his, or work out a partnership, if I did have the money.
Problem is I don't think I could pull off what I want to do for less than one or two million to cover the first couple of years.
@cmpody I didn't say Nash got buried. I said his style didn't fit well with the WWE guys and yes I know he was injured during most of his stint. Booker was put in fueds with Rock and Austin, but he was made to look weak as hell in those fueds if you recall. From Austin throwing him around in a grocery store, to needing Shane to help him against the Rock. He didn't really get crediblity until the King Booker angle some 5 years into his WWE run.
If an unknown wrestling company in TNA were given a deal then it is very reasonable to think a television network would not have given wcw which already had such a large fan base one.
Wcw didn't quite go 'bust', they made more losses than gains but Ted Turner always pumped money into it so it didn't matter. It finished because of the AOL/Time Warner merge so Ted did not have the full say on keeping it.
It was worthless without a tv deal but they would have got one eventually
(cont) Sting didn't join because he knew what Vince was like and Mike Awesome said himself how there was so much politics backstage and that he was happy when they told him he was gone.
Vince pissed all over WCW and bought it out knowing full well that he would no longer have competition and that many wrestlers would be out of jobs. His announcement "I now own wcw in the palm of my hands" made me sick to my stomach
Every One Who Vince Made Sick To Stomach Announcing He Owned WCW Should Have Vomited On Him.
I thought the invasion ppv was one of the greatest ones i have seen, but the whole invasion scenario should have lasted longer than it did
Haha I love Scotty and the Raven character but that hair is a sin against nature XDD
One of my favorites EVER!
Put Nitro on instead of Smackdown and ECW TV instead of Heat. Give each show 4 PPVs a year and have stuff from all of them on Wrestlemania. Then have a cross over show every year. Maybe even use the draft idea to let wrestlers switch shows when THEY wanted to.
No, it wouldn't have been hard. It would have made him a LOT more money and people would have been able to watch what they wanted. But Vince let his ego get in the way like he always does.
Vince could have made money if they did the angle right, besides majority of there big stars like hogan,nash,hall, savage, luger they were in wwe before anyway and got there name big, besides goldberg hall nash hogan an others eventually came to wwe a year or so later
yea i agree with ya cerrano18, that could been the biggest thing ever in wrestling history. but they lacked in it so much and made it water down.
I love Raven
The original plan for the invasion angle was for the alliance to be the face & vinces wwf as its heel (of course its no wonder that plan got nixed) the second idea was for the alliance to have smackdown as its base of operations & raw as wwf's (if this plan ran through all throughout 2001 then by 2002 they could have had both flair & the nwo in the storyline.) in the mean time they could have had a wolfpac vs nWo type feud within the alliance with wcw wrestlers facing off against ecw wrestlers
Raven came to WWF in the best shape of his life and Vince wasted him
if it had been sold to anyone else (bischoff was next in line), they would have lost their tv slot, so, no, the wrestlers would not have had a future. all he would have been purchasing would be the video library + the rights to character trademarks. want to try again?
if it were a game, why even bother? as i said, vince gave wcw more time than they ever would have had without him.
@sagehiphop I don't mean to argue but I think jericho should be on team WCW. Even though he was treated like dirt in WCW compared to his early run in WWF, Chris Jericho is still remembered for his run in WCW and even ECW. Jericho definite should have joined the alliance quite frankly.
I'm not sure I agree with everything you say. I believe that the documentary was Vince basically rewriting history by suggesting it wasn't an ego-boost and it was 'just business as usual' which is just plain wrong. He knew he mis-treated the brand and wasted it.
Your last point makes sense though, the whole invasion angle where everyone was celebrating when the 'good guys' thrashed the competition instead of showing gratitude to wcw and ecw now that they were gone showed that.
all he had to do was change nitro to a diffrent night was it really that hard ?
@bizzles44 thats what it should have been I agree. Buff bagwell was supposed to be in the invasion storyline and on the wcw team .... they replaced him with rhyno cause wwf sacked bagwell before he even started. And he was supposed to have a feud with jericho. hogan, goldberg and scott steiner did all came to the wwf so I kinda wish vince held the invasion storyline when it was good and ready instead of rushing it. If it was in 2002 then hbk would have to go on the wwf team.
Eh, That's speculation. Someone could have bought it for 5mil i.e. the Jarrett's, Dixie, etc. and they wouldn't have had to use still pictures for 5 years, and could have used the archived tapes for DVD and other merchandising type sales. There was still value to be had without a TV time slot.
As you're such a know-it-all I assumed you read books on this issue and knew that once the buyout was announced wcw would have to start operating as a business rather than Ted Turner's toy. I believe Bischoff learnt from his mistakes which is why he was willing to put his own money into it.
He was offered to buy it with no television deal but if he had bought the rights then for sure he would have got one. People were still very interested in the brand, it's just too much money was wasted
The Invasion storyline was a great idea, but they didn't have the right players to make it work. Having Austin apart of WCW was stupid. Think about if they had Goldberg and Hogan and Flair at the time of the storyline. IT could have been done so much better. IF they had bought out all the contracts WCW had with Time Warner
The whole problem with the invasion angle was that Sting did not come along and lead the WCW crew. He was too big at the time to bury. I mean he was just as big as The Rock or Steve Austin at the time.
+spaceman pimpin lol...Sting was NEVER as big as The Rock or Austin...that is just absurd. At this point the crow angle had been really played out too and was dull as shit, so I know no idea what you are talking about saying he was just as big as Austin and the Rock when he was running on fumes at the end of WCW. (to be fair all the main event stuff was by then because it had literally barely changed since since the NWO Invasion.) Originally the Sting angle was big, but your memory is fuzzy if you think it was ever over as much as Austin and The Rock would end up being.
1997 Sting was the most over person in wrestling. If we are talking about peaks, you are right that he never reached Ausin/Rock's peak level, but considering they are both all time top 5 that isn't a knock against Sting.
Sad part is once WCW was bought out and killed wrestling just stopped being the same. Ceased to be fun anymore. Kind of like how music in the 80s was all about having a good time. Then the 90s came and it was all about felling sorry for yourself and hating everyone. Just one big buzz kill.
@TheGetstiffed Yeah all two of them, like Rock and Austin. Because it was them that led and saved the
WWE roster.
He was with the WWF at the time of the buyout.
i was 50/50 on the whole invasion .
NOW its a lesson on how not to do things. The fans payed there money to see those guys and what did they get?
@cmpody - didnt benoit get hyrt in a 4way tlc match on smackdown
Instead, they decided to water it down by tacking ECW on there, which completely killed the Monday Night Wars feel. On top of things, WWE decided to make guys like Booker T and DDP look like complete jokes. The cherry on the turd was having WWE guys like Angle and Austin (he was always seen as a WWE guy since his WCW run sucked) join the alliance, as well as it being under the guidance of the McMahons.
I hated when they combined the ECW faction with the WCW faction to form the Alliance, that was not right in the least.
@Galen052 you raise a pretty good point, but i couldn't see Sting being used that way
IDk why people whine about the invasion angle i throught it was great and how did the wcw guys and ecw guys job to wwe? They won alot of matches againts wwe guys they had the wwe title tag team titles european title and ic title . They had a great showing dominated wwe for months so they lost at survivor series thats consided jobbing? Hell no its not Booker t vs the rock They put on a damn classic match
It sucks for somebody like Raven who never got the right push. BUT... to be honest WCW was a shit show by the time WWE bought it out... all the NWO hype was dead already Jarrett and Sid were wrestling for the strap n shit it was awful. I personally feel like with all the talent WWE aquired between WCW & ECW and what they already had it was ALOT on theyre plate. and i think we got to see everybody wrestle people they wouldnt have before. Invasion was still a great time in wrestling.
@warriorofwrestling Well alot of those guys were still under contract with AOL Time Warner and didn't want their contracts bought out. Had Vince waited a year or so to do the angle, all those guys would have been around. But he was desperate. You gotta remember in 2001, Rock was gone to do a movie, Triple H and Benoit both got hurt, he was hurting for talent so he jumped the gun on the angle.
TEAM WCW: Hogan, Goldberg, Booker T, Scott Steiner, Sting vs The Rock, Kurt Angle, Stone Cold, Undertaker & Kane. nWo hall and nash vs hhh and shawn DX jericho vs eddy guerrero (wcw) that woulda been the shit
@Clintbdee WWE"S WCW big guys were Booker T, Kronik and Shane McMahon
@bizzles44 eddie was injured, hogan, goldberg, steiner had the rest of the 1 year contracts with Turner to finish and sting never wanted to come. so kinda hard tbh
I totally agree........McMahon could have made a gazillion with the WCW roster and fucked it up totally...
What we should've gotten was a bunch of angry disgruntled WCW guys who basically acted like a loosely organized group use guerrilla warfare to help dismantle WWE. Divide the lockeroom, then spring your trap. Over that course of time, you can bring in more names, evenutally building towards the nWo angle again.
@cmpody Not just HHH. Benoit went out soon after as well, not to mention Rock was out for a few months doing a movie. The cupboard was getting pretty bare. All he had for that period was Austin, Taker, Kane, Jericho, and Angle as far as main eventers. Just a shame, could have been one of teh biggest moments in wrestling history.
EVERYONE who watched the monday night wars remembers the big dream match that everyone wanted to see from 97-2002, Goldberg vs Austin. That bitch mcmahon didnt even do it. The rock vs RVD, I dont remember seeing that one either
Goldberg vs Austin, Sting vs Undertaker, Hogan vs Mankind, Big Show vs Undertaker, Hall vs The Rock, Hall & Nash vs Brother's Of Destruction, Lex Luger vs HHH, Hogan vs The Rock, Sid Vicious vs Big Show/Kane, Kevin Nash vs Kane, Sting vs The Rock,.
Can someone explain to me why the Invasion storyline is so criticized. From what I remmeber it was one of my favorite moments of wwf, seeing wcw guys face wwe guys etc
No he didn't quite put them out of business, but if it had been sold to ANYONE else then the wrestlers still would have had a future and it wouldn't just be Mcmanhon's way. Ecw had folded two weeks prior so it was a terrible time to be a performer and it was the worse case scenario that Vince had bought wcw.
I think the way Vince dealed with the Invasion angle suggested that it was all just a game to him and the comment he made epitomised that, regardless of the intention at the time.
@81pdmatt Yes, adding (more like making them the entire emphasis) WWF guys to the angle hurt, but Vince fucked the whole angle up from A to Z.
'more losses than gains' certainly does matter. turner 'pumping more money in' is not any kind of business model. and of course, now he wasn't around anymore, either.
i say again; bischoff didn't think it was worth it. i don't think 'eventually' would have done anything for the wrestlers' confidence (or bank accounts).
vince had them working, at least. i have a hard time seeing that as malice.
@dane21dc Actually Sting has said he's never went to WWE for those exact reasons. He's felt if he went there he would've basically been the new guy and was unsure if success would continue. That's why he's stayed away. I agree I doubt Vince would've shit on him had he gone to WWE but Sting had his own concerns and was being cautious.
@cmpody I'm not saying Booker should went over Rock. I'm saying he could have looked stronger in that fued. Only time he ever got the better of Rock was Shane was helping him jump and shit. He was made look weak and second rate. You knew there wasn't a chance in hell he'd ever beat him. The worse was the Triple H fued in 2003. He actually had the fans behind him at that point and he was made to look inferior as hell in that fued.
Why did he not just keep WCW (and ECW for that matter) as a seperate entity? Instead of having "Raw" and "Smackdown" he should have kept WCW as an entity. Only have "inter promotion" matches at maybe Survivor Series every year, and the occasionial Mania? Have a guy occasionally "jump ship" and stuff, but for the most part keep them seperate. Why not just replace Ted Turner and step back and let the "WCW people" still run the show and everything?
Survivor Series 2001 was excellent.
@HWJASURY i said chris or Kurt at the time they were one of the top draws for wwe. Chris made a bigger impact in wwe. When you think of WCW though Chris Jericho name doesnt pop up right away...