Is Attack on Titan FASCIST? (No, it isn't, just hear me out).
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ค. 2024
- Enough of this madness.
So, in the last few years, and again leading up to the recent anime finale, Attack on Titan has been accused of a variety of unsavory things, in my opinion highly unfairly. Since nothing is ever simple and there is a lot of nuance to this conversation, here's a video that's over an hour long going through Attack on Titan's themes, the historical and political context surrounding it, why there's genuine cause for concern when it comes to Eren stans and how this controversy has become incredibly silly, self-righteous, misinformed and quite frankly just exhausting in its lack of basic media literacy.
Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
04:50 - The big twist of it all
11:41 - The Imperial Japan of it all
22:01 - The Hajime Isayama of it all
28:42 - The pins of it all
41:19 - The Eren Jaeger of it all
52:25 - The weirdos of it all
57:25 - The Ending of it all
01:07:50 - The conclusion of it all
01:11:51 - Outro
Sources:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akiyama...
ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%A7%... (Japanese Wikipedia page for Yoshifuru, to double-check, since the English one seems lacking in citations, most of which are taken from here)
Website for Matsuyama Kita High, the school Yoshifuru became a principal of and the source for most of the Japanese Wikipedia Article, can be checked with machine translation: matsuyamakita-h.esnet.ed.jp/
Link to the chapter "The “Jewish Problem” in Japanese-German Relations, 1933-1945" written by Gerhard Krebs for the book "Japan in the Fascist Era": link.springer.com/chapter/10....
www.japantimes.co.jp/news/202...
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...
Under the Shadow of the Rising Sun : Japan and the Jews during the Holocaust Era: labordoc.ilo.org/discovery/fu...
"Time off: Jews of Japan": • Time off: Jews of Japan
Original 2013 post from Musings that are Seldom: seldomusings.wordpress.com/20...
Original tumblr post by the brave internet sleuth mentioned in the video: yorozuya-gin-chan.tumblr.com/...
Original interview by Isayama stating his inspiration for the story when he had a scuffle at an internet cafe: web.archive.org/web/201311022...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
Original Isayama blog post about Yoshifuru/Pyxis, can be checked using machine translation: blog.livedoor.jp/isayamahazime...
Avatar art by / biamello.art
#attackontitan #hajimeisayama #shingekinokyojin - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
![[ไฮไลต์] ฟุตบอลชาย ญี่ปุ่น vs ปารากวัย รอบแบ่งกลุ่ม | โอลิมปิก 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/X_BeGaAv1oM/mqdefault.jpg)
You know the irony is with people who hated Gabi and wanted her dead was even a person like Gabi who was brainwashed was still able to grow and understand the world and had an amazing development arc . But people who hated her for being ignorant and annoying still couldn't get the shows message and unable to grow
She was def annoying though. Falco, a boy who'd gone through the same experience as her, was not just smart, compassionate and kind enough to not treat Eldians with hatred but had the basic decency to not condemn people and children he'd never met to unbelievable torture and suffering for the country and place that sends children to war.
But I still like Gabi even if she was unbearable as some point
I still hate Gabi. I appreciate her character but personally I didn't like her...if that makes sense. Her story makes sense to the overall story, and I love Falco but I just could never forgive her shooting Sasha, i know she was brainwashed but still. Like I said though she was important to the overall story.
@@sabsain2399 That's the difference between Falco growing up in a family that was punished for having restorationist relatives and Gabi growing up in a family already related to a Warrior with the grandmother firmly pusing the good/bad eldian narrative.
I hate her because she’s simply insufferable, she’s not eren as Gabi is apart of the attackers and eren was the attacked
But I can recognize Gabi is representative of the new generation letting go of its long time hate
I don't like her for how she treats the people who love her.
Thats why Ed Akuma no ko child of Evil is one of my favourite that sums up Eren's character as it shows he is doing this all to protect his people but deep inside him is a child of Evil that wants to wipe out everything which makes him child of Evil
Back when S4 Part 1 was airing, and I had just started high school, I decided to catch up on season 4, watching the first 5 episodes, and immediately it became my favorite show. A few weeks later my mom pulled me aside and wanted to talk to me about a show I was watching. My sister had told her that Aot was a fascist, antisemitic show. When I tried to defend my case, my mother said I sounded like a crazy person, so I decided to get her to watch the show with me. Years later, and it’s now her favorite show of all time.
Attack on Titan is my favorite piece of fiction, and I find myself just zoning out thinking about it. The narratives people build about the show being hurtful have always pissed me off, as being someone who literally grew up with the series, I’ve learned a lot from it. Most of these reasons people bring up to prove their points are just like you said, understandable in isolation, but completely incorrect once you view the whole picture. At the end of the day, this idea is simply motivated by either ignorance or malicious intent. I hate the idea that you can’t learn from a protagonist that’s in the wrong, it’s as if people forgot what a cautionary tale is. It sucks that one of the greatest series will always have this ugly stain attached to it, but I do think the more direct and less open ended anime ending will help. Attack on Titan is such a valuable story thematically, and it’s messages are universal and applicable to today and all of human history.
This was a great video, and I appreciate going into the real history that surrounds these allegations. As much as it’s disheartening to here people say these things about a series I love, for every one of them there’s another person who said it changed their life. As long as the message reaches one person, it has value.
Wow, thanks for sharing your story with the series. This video was my attempt to clear the air of this narrative, because like you I just got frustrated over how people were just not engaging with the actual work, instead going through word of mouth of why it's bad.
@@GeekOuter Thanks for reading my little rant!
I hope your sister watches it too at some point
@@loganshalloe5927 It's a work in progress! She no longer believes what she said but still doesn't seem too interested lmao.
@@sm_cheesy3144 that's good at least
Incredible. I agree with most of what was said, except for a single detail, which is Eren's relationship with Paradis.
It's clear that Eren really cared about his home. In fact, Eren's anger in wanting to attack is understandable, because in fact the world of AOT is cruel and evil in the majority, like ours, but that's the idea that I like most, that even so, deep down , Eren knew that he had made it an excuse for his own desires, his sin.
This says a lot about the 20th and 21st century. Men from totalitarian governments, saying that they do everything they do "for others", and in the end, it is only for them. Even though Eren cared about others, this only became the perfect excuse for him to be even more cruel. That's why Eren became so closed off in the fourth season, he just accepted that everything the memories dictated would happen. This desire within him had already condemned him, and deep down he still wanted the ideal world he and his friends dreamed of.
Rumbling is an alternative, but not the ONLY alternative. Armin's plan to attack only Marley and retreat to gather military power to guarantee a defense for at least several years, even against his morale, was one of the most plausible. Which proves that attacking the world was just Eren's idea.
It is precisely the question of whether or not to forgive humanity and let the world live, even with bad people like the world's leaders, that makes Rumbling very interesting.
AOT works with meta-language a lot, and what Eren says is not really "literal", but much more "reflective". It's not a statement, but much more a question, a vague thought, if you know what I mean. A critique of human ambition and how it destroys the same. Such immaturity is not something that can be compared literally to that of a child, but much more of an analogy. Even when we are old, we really don't leave our old dreams aside, even though some of them are impossible. It is precisely this reflection that makes everything so interesting.
The conversation between Armin and Eren is just an outburst, simple. Eren didn't change, just his worldview, but it was too late. In fact, Eren's death was predicted from the beginning. Keeping in mind that memories of the future exist due to the paths, Eren's entire life was destined to occur this way. What Eren dreamed of was something that was impossible to obtain. Eren's true freedom is knowing that there is no complete freedom on earth in the end.
Eren's whole situation is simple: "It's understandable, keeping in mind that it was inevitable, but that doesn't negate the fact that Eren is someone who is completely trapped and destroyed inside, committing even more destruction and evil wherever he goes. One cannot relativize the evil done, especially when it is something so obvious".
Great video!
Oh wow. That was some seriously good writing on your part, it's certainly food for thought.
Thanks for sharing it!
@@GeekOuter No fucking way, your channel is like finding Gold in the beach sand fr lmao.
I feel like your view of the world is biaised bc "It is precisely the question of whether or not to forgive humanity and let the world live, even with bad people like the world's leaders, that makes Rumbling very interesting." isn't excatly right imo. You can argue with me if you want but the world had all the reasons to hate Eldians as a whole, so it's weird seeing the narrativ being changed as the Edlians being the one who suffured the most and are the biggest victims.
Your analysis of the fascism claims in the show was truly eye-opening. I hadn't known about this aspect before, and your detailed examination, drawing connections to historical events, was impressive. As someone who occasionally leans towards nihilism, I initially aligned with Eren's perspective. However, reflecting on the immense suffering he inflicts on 80% of the world is troubling. Despite my admiration for the show, it serves as a harsh reminder of the realities of humanity. Sometimes, I catch myself entertaining the idea that maybe we should be wiped out. Armin's question, "So what? There can't be any war if there are no people left?" adds another layer to the story. Anyway, sorry for yapping. Great video!
Thanks for the compliment. It's interesting you said that about "sometimes I catch myself entertaining the idea that maybe we should be wiped out" because I think that's a big part of the series themes when it comes to Eren. I didn't mention it on the video propper because it was already way too long, but the anime extended conversation of Eren x Armin does touch upon it. Armin even says something to the effect of "wishing for everything to be destroyed, I get it" as a knee-jerk response many of us have when we face the ugliness of the world. He admits this part of him, but also understands it's a part that must be denied.
Honestly, if AOT was made in America and by a white guy this take would never exist
Idk why people hate sad endings and call it doomerism, aot is a WAR ANIME, war is fucking hell and there’s never any winners, end of day aot couldn’t have ended a better way, eren for me is a loser now but end of day he’s a scared little kid who grew up in a war and sacrificed himself to save his family
*slaps desk* THANK YOU! You have no idea how long I've wanted to make this exact video. I especially appreciate that it isn't just a die-hard fan endorsement of all of Isayama's decisions, but a measured and fair evaluation of both the good and bad (I'd personally add the Ackermann bloodline explanation for Mikasa and Levi's powers as another example of something that leaves a bad taste in my mouth).
You touch on this, but something that irks me about modern media discourse is how quickly people throw out the baby with the bathwater. Does it matter that 95% of AoT is filled with clear, almost on-the-nose condemnations of war/authoritarianism/racism/nationalism/genocide, when those remainging 5% can be interpreted as fascist? Nope, gotta discard the whole thing.
(1:08:11 also, I appreciate this particular call-out. I try to listen to critiques with good faith, but Lost Future's video straight up disgusts me.)
Thank you for the compliments! And yes, it trully is baffling, and that's why I just felt compelled to do this video, even if it meant calling people out in a more antagonistic manner, which is something I've always avoided doing. The part that personally gets me the most is all the gross misinformation regarding Isayama. Like, it's okay to not like AoT or its ending, but you don't need to fabricate this crazy strawman version of the author in order to justify your opinion of it.
@@GeekOuter The breaking point for me was when they included a quote of Yoshiyuki Tomino calling Isayama a bullied child, as a criticism of ISAYAMA!? How can you even pretend to have the moral high ground after that?
@@monoverantus Yup, and another thing is using Tomino of all people as an authority figure. I mean, don't get me wrong, Tomino was certainly influential and his stories make it very clear he's very much against fascism, but the guy has his own metric ton of baggage that Lost Futures simply doesn't mention, so the unsuspecting viewer is like "Oh wow, the Gundam creator thinks Isayama is a loser? That must be it then!"
I'm sorry, if you're gonna call Isayama a misanthrope that made a huge tamper tantrum with AoT, then what do you call the guy that made Victory Gundam during the height of his manic/depressive episodes and that series ends with pretty much the entire cast dead? Or the ending of Zeta Gundam, with Kamille being a vegetable as war rages on? Or his dodgy portrayal of women in general?
Turning Tomino into some sort of example of a progressive, wise and mature creator just because he trash talked a guy you don't like once is wild to me.
I can't say I saw the whole Lost Futures video (only a few brief snippets and a few of the comments), so my testimony doesn't hold much weight, but there was something I saw that sent me over the edge. He straight up claims that the freedom scene was meant to portray Isayama's view of freedom. And thought he was portraying it in a positive light. He literally says that the freedom scene was a revelation of Isayama's twisted view of freedom, that he thinks only crushing all your enemies will bring you freedom. But even most idiots like me can tell it was supposed to be a tragic scene, there was nothing in the scene that suggested it was a view that was being pushed forward as good.
@@cesarefildani5023 That insistence and bull headedness on trying to push an interpretation so uncharitable it borders on cartoonish is precisely the reason I made this video.
How they DARE being empathetic towards people who do evil things?????
I'm reminded of a video I recently saw about some of the disagreements between fans of Breaking Bad. The main character of that show sometimes gets misinterpreted as a good person either turned evil or ascended to his truer self, rather that an evil person using excuses to be that way, and that's because there is a lot of elements that humanize him. The creator, Verdana, adressed this and concluded that evil characters SHOULD be humanized, regardless of how that can be misconstrued, because by portraying evil in an way that isn't nuanced, it will become harder to recognize in the real world.
Imo what's weird is that they should've been like that since the begin of the events? It looks like they understood Eren's motives before creating the alliance, yet still decided to go against it bc they thought itwas wrong so imo their opinion was pretty clear there. The ending give Eren even more explaination so we can even more empathize with him and idk, AoT used us to more implicit content, not everything needed to be said outloud imo, and then the sudden chocked reactions aren't natural either to me. For example, Armin is chocked after finding out how much Eren actually killed but, couldn't he be chocked from the start when he saw the Rumbling? Like he's smart so he's the type of guy who could easily estimate the damages the titans would make as soon as they were free from the wall but that's just me.
This is a minor point, but I think seeing a lot of scenes in the series makes it hard to say that Eren's motivation was purely for his own selfish motivations. Not saying it wasn't a driving factor, but boiling him down to "guy who go boom because he's a whiny man-child" and not "Guy who has such a deranged axiomatic belief in freedom that he chose his method over one that would kill 1/100th as many people because he didn't want to remove the freedom of Eldians to fuck each other" is kind of missing parts of his character. It's not a Walter White situation where he claims one thing and actually intends the other, both motivations of protecting Paradis's freedom and le view are intrinsically tied up into his deranged ideology.
That's a fair point and "Guy who has such a deranged axiomatic belief in freedom that he chose his method over one that would kill 1/100th as many people because he didn't want to remove the freedom of Eldians to fuck each other" is what I was going for, perhaps that wasn't clear enough (though I do think Zeke's method is not much better as Eldians not being able to reproduce wouldn't exactly stop Marley from exterminating them anyway, now that I think about it).
I think Eren isn't a full on psychopath and he does care for his friends and Paradis. That's surely a factor. But ultimately, he went as far as he did driven mostly by his obsession with freedom now made "possible" by stumbling upon literal earth-shattering power. There is also relatability in the fact that Eren, however many intentions may have been floating around his head, lost control over the situation and surrundered to his worst impulses when presented with such power. Once you peel enough layers, you can arrive at what he really cared about: flattening a complicated world into the simple ideal he had in his head of what "freedom" was. That took precedence over his other goals, I think.
Like I said, Eren is understandable to some degree, and feeling sympathy for him does not equal advocating for genocide. He's actually a very interesting and very well realized character IMO. The problem is simply saying that can get people jumping on your throat these days, which is why I made this video.
Okay but like you literally did the same thing. Boiling it down to "he wanted Eldians to have the freedom of fxcking each other," when the opposite is absolutely not what both the euthanasia plan entailed nor what the result of it'd be.
It'd be incredibly cruel to take away the ability to have kids from Eldians and only grant that privilege to the royal family so members of said family could breed like livestock their entire lives, be eaten by their children, then have their children eat them and so on. And there was no guarantee the then old people of Eldia with no youngsters to protect them would remain safe.
So yeah, it wasn't just "oh no, Eldians can't fxck anymore".
That's not why Eren reacted with disgust and disapproval towards the plan and didn't consider it an option. He was immensely griefed by the fact that children had to eat their parents, loved ones and guardians and then only live for another 13 years - living in constant fear, before the cycle would continue for who knows how much longer.
Oh and that's not even including the fact that he did it for more reasons than to go against the euthanasia plan.
@sabsain2399 Holy fucking christ you are fucking insane.
The euthanasia plan by zeke involves all eldians to be sterile (including the royals family and himself). The disgusting part is you believe euthanasia is incredibly cruel (even though it wasn't not executed unlike Eren Yeager fucking Genocide of everybody else that isn't a Subject Of Ymir.
Upon activating the wall titans with the founding titan which ymir gave him, that also kills many inhabitans in the wall (the supposes people he is protecting right and kill 80% of the world population. And yet you downplay the massive consequences of survey corps (Eren's friends as well and the government within Paradis in supporting and abetting Genocide. But you frown upon euthanasia as an option to stop the vicious cycle of suffring although not that I agree but it is not comparable so let's examine this further.
2000 years to you, The king of eldia with Ymir a slave and concubine was raped and birth Rose, Maria, shina. Her daughters ate ymir body and gain the titan shifting powers right. How did the titan powers passed down if it wasn't it by continuing to reproduce and fucks without thinking of the consequences down the line with all the implications of eugenics and Supremacy in which the leaders of eldia excercise for any purposes .
These powers were passed down by fucking or devouring the other to create a nation state through support and maintenance which leads to the eventual eldian empire, expansion through colonialism, expansion and capitalism which involves comitted cultural, mental and physical Genocide of the people they conquered (the people outside the walls and why they hate the eldians to begin with. THAT IS PURE EVIL. Doesn't fucking and continuing to exist leads to all this suffering and problems. Give me a fucking break. DONT YOU DARE JUSTIFY THIS.
OR do you believe the main cast of survey, the eldian restorations and the current generation of eldians are not responsible for the actions of there ancestors. If you say no. Then the eldians restorationist were incredibly prideful of all the good things their ancestors did and yet their moral bankruptcy vileness and how convenient the titans shifting powers is available to fight back and "MAKE THE ELDIANS EMPIRE GREAT AGAIN" So fascim and nazis or Japanese fascist.
Ymir Fritz and her descendants are responsible for all of these problems.
The hatred and fears of the eldians cultivated from thousands or centuries of inflicting suffering on the people in the world and ISAYAMA CONVENIENTLY DID NOT SHOW THESE ASPECTS OR HISTORICAL MATTERS OR EVENTS.
I am here to tell you that I watched the whole video. I think that is already enough praise but I will add more.
The contents were thoroughly researched, all the points were expressed amazingly, you were very clear and unbiased in commentary, great editing and just an excellent video overall.
Thank you for making things clear about my favourite series. This series has given me a reason to live during my depression, and reason to further grow as a person and made me look at the media and world in a different perspective.
This was a really tough topic to cover but you managed to thread that needle - great job! Very informative.
Very nice video indeed. I feel the same way as you do on about 95% of the topics you touched. This anime has been such a wild ride from beginning to end and I think the numerous different reactions and strong opinions about the ending, and consequently the show as a whole, were actually to be expected considering the impact that it's had ever since it first came out. It's such an interesting analysis and projection of many important parts of human nature, both good and bad, and as such it's sure to get people's emotions all wind up. However I do hope that, as some time passes and said emotions cool down a bit, we'll get a proliferation of these sort of insights into the story and the meanings behind it.
I, for one, saw a very realistic (minus the obvious fantasy elements, of course) portrayal of humans and their relationship with conflict, fear, hatred and hope. Everyone is a slave to something and (almost) everyone is a victim of something. It's about "leaving the forest" and doing our damn best to brake away from that cycle of violence, rather than contributing to its continuation, and moving into a brigther future. No matter how dismal the outlook might be, we still have to try. That's the message I took from Attack on Titan, and I feel thoroughly satisfied.
Feel the need to add: at 53:34 Eren technically did sacrifice himself. I mean Armin thanks him for becoming a mass murderer for their sake. Just as we agree that Eren didn't do it for 100% selfish reasons, we can agree that part of his reasons was to make sure his friends lived long and happy. He did DIE in the end. He could've flattened the world easily with Ymir, erased everybody's memories and be on with it. So I do believe to a degree that he did sacrifice himself.
Also, from the perspective of Armin and the group - the threat of an immediate attack was gone, the titan shifters could live long lives and it was all thanks to Eren going psycho mode. If not Eren, then who was gonna do it for them?
All of his friends later remember him for past days and the kindness he managed to show to them and the world as a kid at rare points. I believe the reason they don't condemn him that strongly was because they believe they themselves did horrible things as well (Jean, Connie, Mikasa killing their comrades, and you know how it goes with Armin, Annie, Reiner and Pieck).
That controversial dialogue was deleted and a whole new scene written by the author was put in its place in the revised ending for the anime.
@@dextoppable I know. But still, even in the new one Armin thanks him - so it's not like that dialogue was removed entirely. There was just more context added to it: i.e, Armin doesn't look like he's diminishing the severity of Eren's actions and wants to shoulder his sins with him. Also that's not the only reason why I think Eren sacrificed himself
An hour long video by a small creator that I have never seen about one of my fave anime! Let's Gooooo!
Very insightful and your video is very high quality. Keep up this standard and you should grow a larger subscriber following in no time. Awesome work!
Quite literally the best AoT video on TH-cam, holy shit. My god, you earned a sub EASILY.
I agree aot isn’t fascist but more naively liberal in its nature. The story rejects fascism though sees it as a natural cycle of the world. But that humans should still strive for peace. Decent message but it kind of assumes this specific cycle of violence is attributed to human nature rather than the way their society is organized and how their systems encourages greed and violence which opens the door to fascism. Peace talks is not enough to move the hearts of governments who gather wealth and power from oppression. Elida’s military led monarchy would also continue the cycle of oppressive violence even if the rumbling was complete. The story barely questions its power and solves the corruption by introducing a nicer leader. The root of issues is not really explored in stories like this which limits the narrative imo. Great video tho you explained your points very well.
Thank you for the compliments!
Also, you raise some very nice points! Though I personally disagree with the "solves the corruption with a nicer leader" part. As we see in the finale, Paradis is still very much fractured and war hungry as the Jaegerists gain traction and the conflict eventually escalates again (probably for different specific reasons though) so nothing is really "solved".
But you're right, most stories dealing with war tend to focus on the more philosophical aspects instead of getting into the weeds of socio-economical systems and set of incentives.
@@GeekOuterFair point! I guess they mostly installed a leader that was more open to their position.
I do agree with your points, it does provide a good leftist perspective on this. It is more based on philosophic thought instead of materialistic examination, though not a huge problem, this does leave out many of the true origins of Fascism from the story. It does still discuss many of the problems that can lead to nationalism and fascism. There are many points that show how imperialism and expansionist policies (associated with capitalism and whatnot) helped worsen the issues. I wish it did delve into these topics more and give them more of an important role, but I am still incredibly happy with what we got. I will also mention how Isayama of course, like most people, grew up in a Liberal (at best) environment and probably unfortunately hasn't had the opportunity to study more left based analysis of Fascism and history, so I can't really be too harsh on his ideology. If you know what I mean.
Absolutely brilliant video, congrats. Watched the whole thing.
Nothing more I can say about what the vid already says, but I'll add that it's crazy to me how some people would look at the first three seasons (you know, before THE twist) and say AOT is not -at least- a little bit leftist. Like, the first three seasons quickly stablish the class struggles Paradis has: human trafic, police corruption, nobles being well hidden inside the walls while poor people is as close to the walls as possible or even underground, rich merchants blocking the gate to other people in order to save their profits first, the royal family doing NOTHING... The list goes on (also, non-political but still something clearly not suitable for fascists: Ymir and Historia being in love).
Taking that into account, how could anyone see AOT and say it's actually an apology for nationalism, fascism or whatever? Hell, even in S4, after THE twist, we meet the secret true leaders of Marley: the Tyburs... and they're just rich eldians!!! Because in the end it wasn't even about races, it's all about wealth and class!! Hell, we even discover that one of the big reasons Marley send Reiner and the rest to break wall Maria was because they wanted access to raw material in order to improve their military campaigns!!! It's all about imperialism and class struggle.
Where do those people see fascist propaganda in any of that? I honestly can't tell.
Also, the fucking church. Like c'mon people.
Also, the Azumabito! The whole Mikasa bloodline thing was just an excuse, a nationalistic tale to disguise Hizuru’s economic interests in Paradis’ resources!
I'm ashamed to admit that twenty years ago I'd have been firmly on Eren's side. Hell, as an entire knocking-on-fifty's-door adult who works with the general public, there are days when I'm convinced that Eren had a point. But my takeaway is that Eren. . . well, he never grew up. Everyone--well, just about everyone--around him did, and they were able to change their world view and motivation, but he. . . he was, until the day he died, that same traumatized ten year old boy watching his mother die in front of him. This, of course, made him fertile ground for the kind of idealization that in the end led to him doing what he did, the anger that turns to hatred and leads to violence. To me, that's the saddest, and most truthful, thing about the whole story and the biggest reason (I think) that so many people didn't like the ending. They wanted him to be a hero, and he was just a wounded human like everybody else.
Exactly! And that by itself is a valid topic for exploration, but instead of analyzing Eren through these lens, most people either take away the author wanted to promote fascism and genocide or that Eren turned into a beta cuck by the end, thus having his character assassinated.
Comments like yours are much more interesting and fruitful when it comes to discussions about the themes of the story. I really wish this was the norm and not the outlier.
A masterpiece. Incredible research my friend
Someone fucking send this to F.D. Signifier please?
Done, though I doubt it will be found in the mountains of comments. It is so disappointing how much he dislikes the show and how adamant he is that it sucks and wants to make everyone believe that it sucks. Most of his points can be easily countered. He makes so much more great content that it is sad.
@@cesarefildani5023 he even liked a comment spreading clear misinformation that Isayama wanted to make a spa with his fan’s tears. Dude is lost in the sauce
@@brianmattei7134 If Isayama ever actually said that, it would almost certainly have been a joke.
@@brianmattei7134 bro what....
i really enjoyed the video, thank you for your research and efforts
this will blow up
Top tier video.
You said it very well.
wow, this was good! i don't have anything particularly meaningful to add, but i thoroughly enjoyed it!
this whole discourse leads me down a slippery slope of insecurities as a wannabe storyteller whose main inspiration is this series.
should i hold myself accountable for any possible sinister interpretation of whatever i put out?
does the historical context preceding a story overpower the text itself?
can i ever create anything that isn't propaganda by proxy even though when i see AoT i see a story that is unabashedly critical of the spread of propaganda itself?
should i just bite the bullet and burn the 31 volumes on my shelf?
like i said, slippery slope.
if not for my crippling obsession with moral purity i would be able to simply disagree and go about my day, but i grow more paranoid the more i'm exposed to this discourse. to a psychotic degree
luckily for you, you do not control peoples free will. you can make stories about bad things whatever ppl get from it is up to them its why all sorts of people read lolita isnt it? and as far as i know the author didnt write that book from personal experience being the abuser child molester, quite the contrary so there you go. it will inevitably attract people with different morals than yourself/ none but such is life nothing to be done people of all types are literate and read. you are free to state your intentions with your work to avoid a canceling type situation but the rest is out of your hands. and such is art it will be interpreted and misinterpreted and theres nothing anyone can do about that. whether you wish to hold yourself accountable depends on you entirely. though i dont believe it to be necessary. i wish you good luck though
What a great review, thank you!!!
best video I ever seen about aot. I had the same views but never could have explained as well as you did.
Amazing video; you make your point clearly and compellingly. Of course I agreed with what you said even before watching it from trusting my own eyes, so maybe I'm not the most unbiased in this judgement. But anyway, I had a great time watching it (and the video snippets were on point!).
One thing that you can certainly say about AoT is that it is clearly not a series that espouses an ideal of total pacifism. But I find it somewhat ironic that this is then interpreted as supporting fascism, when actual fascists used the same reasoning to stymie anti-fascist efforts; "war is bad so we should let the Germans do as they want" and all that. I'd take the "miracle of friendship" between Uri and Kenny over that any day. (Not that I want to take any sides in a question regarding Japanese domestic politics though, only speaking generally...)
You know when you’re trying to argue for something to a dumb person, so you give an example P, trying to show that P is wrong therefore it must be Q. But the other person is so dumb that before you could finish this, he’s like see, he just argued for P, he must believe P is the case.
Unfortunately I know this feeling all too well.
Ah man finally watched the full video and my love for Aot keep on increasing i will keep it in my heart for atleast 10 year 😂 well jokes aside i really like to hear the words of people who truly get the message of the story once again you did a great work 👍 but i know people who hate Aot will not try to understand the really message it is giving just like Jeagrest. Though i might like Eren as a character but we cant justify his action . Main message that both Hange and Armin tried to tell Floch and Eren is even though Conflicts will not stop but killing eveyone is not solution we need to try to understand each other and even though not now but our future generations can bring the mutual understanding 😊
great discussion, you got yourself a new sub
While it matters to the story on who let the pigs out of the pen, it doesnt matter to this video.
This was so beautifully done. So much of my own thoughts have been difficult to articulate thought in my heart I felt to much of what you clearly did about this masterpiece. Thank you for putting so much passion and research into this vid
Why this video only has 5000 views? I finished it and I was about to watch the views (I thought it were like 100,000). Well, very good vid pal
This show doesn't deserve this false notion. I agree 1000% with this video. I know that my profile picture is of Eren but that's because I truly enjoy his character. I don't think that he was right. He's a crazy maniac who's drunk of the false notion of freedom. Anyway my point is, this video is 100% right and anyone who thinks the TV show is fascist should watch it.
thank you very much for this video! i had just watched one of the "aot is fascist" vids u had listed at the end before this and was just baffled by how much someone can perpetuate blatant misinformation and taking things out of context to purposely further paint something as bad and what it clearly isn't. will definitely redirect anyone who says the exact same bs to this video lol, truly great job!
It's no wonder Fascists love AoT. On the surface it's packed with the pageantry of fascist iconography and that's all they care. The military looks badass killing the evil unstoppable foreign menace. That's all they care for. Point stop. The nuances are completely lost. It's the same with American History X. Given this, artists should be at least veeery careful when they use the trappings of fascists in their work and make it look "epic". No matter their intentions, right wingers are gonna drool all over it and miss the point 😮💨
At least with AoT S4 onwards, all the victory speeches/dedicate your heart moments aren't portayed with epic music or hype camera angles like in previous seasons where scouts goals were saving humanity.
Not an issue on the author, honestly. Dune is a series that could not be more clear on how Paul and his son are horrible people and that power is inherently terrible and people STILL idolize Paul.
You can only do so much.
@Jonas-ob2sh I 100% agree, and it is the goal I think. I loved it. But right wingers simply ignore the whole reframing of the military. Hell I saw people idolizing the Jagerists..
I had my doubts whether aot was pro-fascsim or not. And the thing that absolutely didn't convince me it wasn't were the fanboys calling anyone who even asked if it was fascist and idiot, or using Hange's "genocide is wrong" line. Your video is way more convincing
34:16 what music track is playing
"The Reason" from Season 4's OST.
@@GeekOuter appreciate you habibi
Finally watched this, It's a very good and well researched video but I would like to point out that the ending was very different in terms of context between anime and Manga. (Well, I typed this all out before the end but I might as well put this here for those in the back!) In the Manga, Armin went full pity mode on Eren and was saying it was not his fault. (Implying Eren did nothing wrong) In the anime, Armin gave a longer speech that boiled down to "You did awful things Eren, but I still went along with it so we will burn in hell together." I think this is better because It's more of what the Armin we knew would say before Season 4 (Which is when that conversation was implied to take place before Eren wiped Armins memories.) It might seem small but Armin also taking responsibility is huge and works way better with the themes of the anime.
Also, Do you mind if I share this on a server that does Attack on Titan stuff? I think this video needs way more attention!
I don't mind at all, please share it wherever you feel like.
As for the differences between anime and manga, at the end of the video I do concede the manga version is much wonkier, but that I do believe the subtext is essentially the same, though of course your mileage may vary.
If it helps, Isayama did an interview post anime finale with the New York Times and explains his intention with Armin's speech at the end of the original manga version:
www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/arts/television/attack-on-titan.html
In case the paywall prevents your from reading:
NYT: There’s a much-talked-about scene where Armin, who is struggling with Eren’s turn into a mass murderer, seems to thank him for his actions. Can you talk about the meaning behind that conversation?
Isayama: My thinking there wasn’t really that Armin was trying to push Eren away for the sake of justice or whatnot. It was more that he wanted to, in a sense, take joint responsibility. He wanted to become an accomplice. In order to become an accomplice, Armin had to make sure that he used very strong wording so that he could take those sins upon himself. And so that was the intent behind it.
The main idea behind Eren Armin convo remains same in both cases. There is a very good ANN review on this who were very critical about the show’s imagery of using armbands in the past btw. Even the reviewer goes on length to discuss how spoon feed some of those dialogue seemed but he conceded that it was needed to clear up misunderstandings.
An video on Attack on Titan I cant miss it out.
He definitely watched Invader's video no doubts about it
As someone else also trying to become a not angry white person because the fandom struggles on interpreting a piece of media I like...yeah I get the feels here. Why does this keep happening?
Fandom is suppose to love the media they follow why is fandom so full of bad criticism now. Like full of criticism sure but bad criticism that misunderstands the media they like, why?
I’m curious about your opinion on Mikasa’s ending scene and the ending song. Mikasa wanting to bury him, thanking Eren at his grave for wrapping the scarf around her, visiting him and being buried with the scarf. And then the ending song showing them together in the afterlife (supposedly).
I agree with your take on Eren and Armin’s final conversation, and I wonder how you feel about Mikasa’s behavior after killing Eren. A lot of people say that her holding on to the scarf even after the final battle shows that she never moved on from being a slave to Eren, and that showing her (and presumably the rest of the gang) going to his grave, giving him a proper burial and honoring him, even if as a friend, is still apologia of the Rumbling and Eren’s character.
Personally, I feel like it was rushed and a little bit careless, kind of like the Jewish arm bands analogy. I understand it makes sense for Mikasa especially to have a hard time accepting what happened, and I see her holding on to the scarf as a way of remembering the good in Eren. To Mikasa, the scarf (and Eren, of whom the scarf is an extension) is the embodiment of “the world is a cruel but beautiful place” which is what she learned from Eren. It was this idea which allowed her to not give up her life back in Trost when she thought Eren had died, and the very same thing that allowed her to keep living after killing him. I find that very beautiful and a great development for her while staying true to her character. But I think the dove fixing her scarf sent the message that Eren literally embodied freedom in a positive sense and that’s a weird thing to say (the birds until now hadn’t been representative of any actual person).
But I also see how that whitewashes Eren’s legacy. Especially the fact that he got a proper burial when all that’s left from his victims is a sea of blood and, literally, a handful of unrecognizable hair and teeth. Does he deserve to be remembered fondly by his friends? Does he deserve to be loved? Even if what’s being mourned is “the good parts” of him.
That's a very interesting question and I like your personal analysis!
What I do think of the scene/plot point in question is that it was done in a way that was a bit wonky and rushed, because I got the impression that Mikasa/Eren relationship is supposed to mirror Ymir/Fritz's, mainly the whole "being in love with a problematic person" thing. I thought it was an interesting idea that didn't have much room to breathe so it feels kinda weird (why on Earth would Ymir even love Fritz is beyond me, because as far as we know he was nothing but explicitly and objectively terrible to her).
But I don't go further than "fumbled execution at most" when thinking about Mikasa and the gang's lasting fondness for Eren, because at the end of the day the intent is pretty clear: they liked him before he went ballistic, and honor those memories of him, and that's that. The audience may not be convinced by this development, but to conflate it with "see? This means that the good guys loved fascism!" is just several leaps of logic ahead. Like I said in the video, I think there's this hysteric mentality where people want the entire cast to look at the camera and say "we now hate Eren, who's a dirty fascist" in order to be satisfied and sure of the work's allegiances, ignoring the other mountains of explicit context.
That's just not how humans work. I think Mikasa and the rest are entitled to choosing to cling to the good side of Eren they have experienced. That's not an admission of agreeing with his actions. The very notion that an antagonist can't have a human and likeable aspect to them without implying endorsement is one born out of this desperation to prove something is problematic.
When it's convenient, we say we want nuanced, morally fallible human characters. When it isn't, we burden the author with the responsability to be as clear cut and manicheistic as possible.
He got a burial which is almost hidden and not even among the comrades who died for the sake of honor, they didn't even build a statue or a monument of him above his buried corpse or his head so saying that they whitewashed or glorified his legacy is completely wrong.
@@GeekOuter Great video. But I wanna talk about Ymir's "love" for king Fritz. Personally I think it was poorly worded on Isayama's part that she "loves" him. I think that its more like an unhealthy attachment. Ymir was enslaved and abused her whole life, she definitely has a very twisted view on "love" because of her trauma. She keeps on serving the royal family because that's all she knows.
@@daylaanle That's an interesting take, and that may be it! But like I said in this thread, I think it came off as rushed and underdeveloped, so it feels out of nowhere and we sorta have to jump through some hoops to interpret it that way.
@@GeekOuter In my opinion, Ymir’s personality is why she became attached to Fritz. It is often over looked but when she was introduced, her personality was described as one that always puts others needs before hers, one that makes her want to only make others happy or serve the needs of others who make her feel valued. This is the mentality of a willing slave. Since she has this mentality where she values herself based on how valuable she is to others wants, she easily fell into a “Love” for the purpose and value King Fritz gave her.
If People just search the World Facist.
Than just jumping throwing words... They would know AOT was never and nowhere near Facist.
Okay I disagree with the Eldians not being a stand in for Jews and Japanese. Yes it absolutely can be. Mutants are a stand in for every group of people. Eldians are not even a one to one comparison to Japan. Cause Attack on Titan is still a work of fiction
My point, as I explain in the video, is that it being both from a perspective of "this story is fascist and anti-semitic" does not make sense.
If the story is fascist from a Japanese standpoint, then the Eldians are a race of people that are wrongly opressed, are actually superior and deserve to rule the world. But if the story is also anti-semitic, then the interpretation is that the Eldians are a rightfully opressed nation because they are dangerous and can turn into monsters and want to rule the world.
Do you realize how these readings are directly opposed to one another to the point where both can't be applied at the same time? As such, it has to be one or the other in order to make sense, and throughout the video I argue that it's neither.
Plus, the actual direct stand in for Japan in the story, if there is one, is clearly the Azumabito anyway.
Fashion (appearance) is the essence of fascism discourse. The left and the right are falling prey to surface level lazy rhetoric and criticisms. Two sides of the same coin. Thank you for jumping in the middle of the battlefield Gandalf style to provide a nuanced analysis of the series themes and much needed context.
28:38 This really undercuts your take; the suggestion is not that 'this isn't fascist' but rather he recognizes that it's an ugly, "bad" thing he's expressing. You seem to understand the question of "is this work of art fascistic?" as being indistinguishable from "is the creator a bad person?" His soul isn't on trial here and, frankly, he seems to recognize that his dark impulses are at play here.
None of this changes the text of the work, which makes the incredibly bizarre choice to loop in a metaphor for the jewish people with world domination conspiracies. That, in and of itself, makes me really skeptical of your claim that it's *obviously* not fascistic when it seems to me more and more the longer you talk that it's obviously a good question to ask.
I'm going to watch the whole thing but, at this point, it is really, really standing out how little time you've spent talking about or tying any of this to the work itself.
Do not worry, quite literally the rest of the video is analyzing the work itself after the going through the context (after all authorial intent is always the first thing on people's mouth's when they accuse something of being fascist).
Hope you have a good time with the rest of the video or at least comes to understand my position. Have a good one.
@@GeekOuter As a person that's spent quite a lot of time studying fascism and it's intersection with media, authorial intent is rarely on my mind and rarely occupies my thoughts in any media analysis. That's what "death of the author" is about; to paraphrase Lindsay Ellis 'authorial intent is helpful in so far as it allows us to gauge how successful a work is in achieving that vision.'
300 is a great example. It's an incredibly fascistic movie though I would not believe that it was Zack Snyder's attempt to make a fascistic movie nor that Zack Snyder is an avowed fascist. That doesn't change how the work was dehistoricised in ways that consistently reaffirm fascistic world view by creating a mythologized version of history.
I saw your comment and didn't watch the rest as a result. If someone brings up authorial intent as crucial to understanding a work, that's a red flag that they're not familiar with media criticism and the argument that is typically being made is "it makes sense, just as long as you assume the authors worldview". But how a work holds up when it's ideas are challenged and the cultural implications of that synthesis are typically where you get an interesting view of the work.
But, like, it's okay if you enjoy it. I enjoyed 300 and still would. But I don't need to be blind to what's going on under the hood to maintain my suspension of disbelief. That's what it seems like your argument is geared to do; extend the suspension of disbelief into reality.
Anyway, just my thoughts. Big love, honey.
@@thequeenofswords7230 Well, then there's nothing I can do as I think we are philosophically opposite regarding this matter: I place a lot of weight in authorial intent as an informative compass in how to interpret a work of art, and I staunchly disagree something can accidentally be fascist (or anything else for that matter) regardless of said intent. Like you said, we can argue whether it was succesful or not in making its point, but to categorically accuse something of being fascist regardless of what the author has to say about it strikes me as arrogant and quite frankly unfair.
Furthermore, this video was made because the vast majority of criticism was not only that the work is fascist, but its author as well, and that AoT is directly, intentionally, peddling propaganda under the hood. It's a direct response to that discourse.
Further furthermore, I explain in the video why I believe the "jewish metaphor" is not about the jews at all, for example, and that ties with the historical context on how Japanese Imperialism related to the matter of the jews quite differently from what I think you're immediatelly assuming to be the case from a western lens.
But at the end of the day, you do you. This is not a video on the "death of the author" concept nor does it operate under that premise. Have a good one.
ITT: Birth of a Nation isn't racist.
Cool. Cool. Have a good one.
@@thequeenofswords7230 Oh please, now you're just lazily reducing my view of art to a false symmetry and not even bothering to engage with the rest of the response. I guess you're at least proving my point regarding the arrogance I perceive in this "death of the author" philosophy.
If that's how you're gonna be, I won't bother further engaging. But by all means, do write more snarky one-liners, your comments boost engagement.
it is very easy, from a detached bird's eye view to condemn Eren's actions, but if you try to rewatch the first 3 seasons and remember the horror that was inflicted on the innocent people of Paradis, for seemingly no good reason at all, just senseless slaughter. Remember the absolute hopelessness and horror of those first 3 seasons, and then you discover that the titans weren't a freak abomination from nature but actively being sent from the outside world by other people. If you think about it really Isseyama injected a lot of his own detached sense of morality into characters that should have been seeing very differently, seeing friends and family eaten alive you get over it quickly when it's just a show you're watching and the first season was literally years ago, but the actual characters living it it should have been seared into their minds forever. Defending your home and your people from this relentless threat from a completely irrational racist and psychotic outside world is a completely legitimate action
Yes, we've seen everything from Season 1 to Season 4 but that doesn't mean we should blame it entirely on the outside world especially the citizens who have nothing to do with it and equally suffers as the people in the walls or worse like the Eldians who left behind or other people like Ramzi, there goes a saying two wrongs don't make it right. If you don't understand the argument between Gabi and Kaya then you are missing the point.
@ronaldzamora8850 it's not about who we as the viewer blame, it's about what do people do when they live under oppression for decades and are threatened with war and annihilation.
Read about the slave revolt of Haïti and about the horrible things they done to the "innocents", and think about if you wanna blame the slaves
W video
oh ok... so eldians cononically did destroy the world with titans, i thought it was fake propaganda stories made by marley. it makes me reconsider my admiration and empathy i had for them
Yes,they did...
So basically Eren is cursed with the simultaneous time perception of Dr Manatthan or the aliens in Arrival. I don't think it's particularly well executed but is ironic considered his obsession with freedom, how Eren seems to be trapped into a predetermined set of events with no real choice as he alredy saw it happen in the future. There is no real way to talk him out of the plan because from his point of view out of the timeline.. it has already played out. It is a controversial story point to me, as it partially robs him of agency or at least responsability and what it does is so enormously horrific that it really leaves a bitter aftertaste 😐
I don't know how it robs him of agency when this outcome was what he wanted, he even admits it.
You make it seem like he had no choice in the matter.
Also, the narrative doesn't absolve Eren of his actions either, it simply states this outcome wasn't only because of his choices alone and many other characters bear that burden alongside Eren.
I think this aspect of Eren's story is the most interesting. I love how it's a foil to his need for freedom. It's the cause of it, ultimately, and it's a commentary on a deterministic view of the world.
Dune does the same exact thing with the Golden Path. I think any well-adjusted reader can realize that both authors are saying "hey, people are shaped by their lived experiences and thus have little true agency" and "the acts the main character is committing are horrific" at the same time.
Aot is a mirror image of the reality of the real world especially in regards to how black people is treated by all other cultures of the world
I agree with most of the video thill the Eren part since there are bad faith comparisions and name calling as saying agreeing with Eren is the same as glorifying his actions, calling people that agree with Eren weirdos and "werid socially awkard young men who have nothing going on in their life", you can disagree or agree with Eren or any controversial media without painting the other side in a bad light since that benefits no one and further pushes people into their echo chambers
Agreed. Coming from someone who frequents that subreddit he showed the posts from, either r/KotakuInAction or r/KotakuInAction2 (I can't tell with the new layout since I use the old one), and also a double minority (LGBT and brown), it shows how much of a bias there is in regards of how people are allowed to enjoy media or think about social issues. I do indeed rail against woke crap like the showcased posts, but it's because the ones pushing woke crap do a very poor and offensive job at portraying minorities or push soft bigotry of low expectations.
I think calling everyone who is or was Team Eren as weirdos is a little unfair given certain real world interpretations. Attack on Titan is a complex work and I think the fact that some people can agree with Eren is part of the concept. And when you look at where everyone is coming from with it you can see why. Figures like Malcolm X for example bring up this idea of fighting for freedom. It also this idea of freedom and slavery that is seen by most as a positive and negative thing. So of course a main character wanting freedom seems like a good thing for us. It is not a black and white issue
A main character wanting freedom by taking away someone's or somebody's freedom is not even a good thing, that makes him a hypocrite or ironic. Pretty much a typical reason by any other villains or villainous main characters who is doing it for selfish reasons, even Eren himself already admitted that he's wrong.
Yes, but the point of those works is to show how it's still WRONG to follow those types. Look at Dune.
I think the idea that AOT is fascist comes from how western far right politics have this thing where nonwhites can't criticize racism cause it's "racist to white people" and white people that do criticize racism are considered "woke" or "self-hating". Isayama is Asian henceforth it's considered offensive to these people that he made a story that portrays racism and fascism in the wrong, so they try to reverse it.
POC criticising racism is also considered woke just to add 🫠
Part of the reason why I used to be anti woke, anti sjw as a kid 😅
@@sabsain2399It is "woke" when the claims are baseless and the solution is to discriminate against others. The ones who complain about racism end up using it themselves for power and influence.
AoT perfectly mirrors the dilemma in today's world that the supposed "oppressors" from the past are now valid targets to discriminate and hate against, and them practicing racial politics is evil when it can be argued that it is self-preservation.
The algorithm brought me here for your assumption this video wont blow up.
39:00
Hahahaaaaa, I understood that reference... ; P
Hm. I disagree on the "when that clearly wasn't the only choice" bit.
I think that's one of the things that bothers me most about the rumbling. The story repeatedly portrays it as there being no alternative (Eren begging Hange to show him another way when he's got her by the collar in that cell), them repeatedly reiterating that they just couldn't figure anything out, so Eren took it in his own hands, and Eren at the beginning of S4-3 Special 1 saying
"I kill all these people. Which means we never figured out a way for Paradis to survive".
Then in the final chapter Eren goes "I did it for me" Walter White style, talking about how he just loves murder and really wants to see that sight.
Imo for your interpretation to be valid (and for that final chapter to have been better), the story should have proposed several viable alternative approaches, which Eren is shown to refuse.
Like Breaking Bad. There are numerous occasions where Walter is given the opportunity to go out of the drug business, while sustaining himself and his family.
He chooses however to keep going, and in the final episode he finally admits that.
AoT seemed to try go for the same thing, but it didn't put in the legwork for that, so Eren's motivation completely breaks in the final chapter.
Insanely good video anyway, but I seriously disagree with people who interpret Eren differently than you being somehow right wing sigma bros.
It just should have went for something else, or if it really wanted the "I did it for me" thing, it didn't set it up properly and needed to show Eren actively choosing it over peaceful solutions
You raise what I believe is very valid criticism! I disagree Eren didn't have other choices (using the Rumbling in a controlled manner, for example, comes to mind), but the story could indeed have explored those options further to make its point stronger, though I believe at the end of the day it's pretty the idea was Eren was wrong and couldn't handle that amount of power because he was a product of the violent world he lived in.
As for those who agree with Eren differently than me, I understand your point, but for someone to seriously defend his actions and go as far as to say he should've killed even more people speaks to their character in a way I can't really bring myself respect. I can understand someone interpreting he was a tragic hero who had no good choice (though I hard disagree as stated in the video), but as soon as someone says anything to the effect of "he should've killed more" or "his only mistake was letting his friends stop him" I just can't see them any other way.
I actually thought a lot about softening my critiques of these fellows in order to not come off as too rude or unnecessarily unkind, but ended up going for it anyway because
a) it's very observable how a very sizeable portion of them are indeed right wing sigma bros
b) I let it all out when criticizing Japanese nationalists and the pop culture journalists/content creators, so I thought it would be unfair to hold my punches for only one group. Of course, I understand this leaves me open for equally fierce criticism, and I accept that.
@@GeekOuter That's naive...small scale rumbling will solve nothing but furthers the scourge of of titans. Eren has only one aim from the beginning that is ending all titans which he did. Eren is not the monster here but the royal blood line from 2000 years who have been using Yimir to destroy other countries and Marley eventually perpetuating the same violence and genocide. I love how Eren and scouts obliterated all genocide enablers and fascists aka Willy Tybur and Marleyan govt...Also no one seems to pay attention to founder Yimir and her suffering. Mini rumbling or any other plan only makes her suffering worse. Eren is the only person in 2000 years who treated Yimir as a person and said she can choose what she wants to do and she did the rumbling. Not sure how much of rumbling Eren's choice, how much is Yimir's. Also Eren is an very unreliable narrator. I personally 100% approve Eren's choice of giving Yimir free reign to do whatever she has to do to end her suffering. It's not ideal, no one wants genocide especially not Eren but this is AoT, hard choices are to be made to ensure humanity's survival and ending of curse of titans. In a lesser show, they would have gone with a kinder choice like mini rumbling, diplomacy or what not but that' what makes AoT great, it doesn't shy away from making brutal choices and showing cruelty of rumbling yet u completely understand why that needs to happen.
@@nneo3231 I strongly disagree and I made this hour long video to say why, so I don't really feel like repeating myself on that specific account. Eren is not a tragic hero, by his own admission.
@@GeekOuter OK, sure that's valid...there are many interpretations and yours is one of them 👍
@@oriolvp4413 I can say the same about you. You are severely missing the point. AoT is all abt cycle of violence, Eldia for 2000 yrs and Marley not learning anything doing the same for 100 yrs. Magath and Willy were planning this parallelly, they would attack Paradis no matter what, Zeke accelerated their decision cz' he has only 1 year to live. Attack on Paradis would happen eventually with or w/o Zeke's intervention, Eren went with it cz' he needs to get Zeke's trust.
After watching 1 ep of S4 how can anyone rehabilitate Marley so easily. They were literally using Eldians as human shields and bombs. Marley's ultimate goal is to get ice burst stone to make more weapons (same as Hizuru). They r imperialists to the core, harassing entire world with Titan power, now they lost 3 of their Titans now they want to find a new way to maintain Military dominance.
Not striking and taking in all the violence from your oppressor is accepting your colonizer. Paradis has 100% right to fight back the oppressor and stomp their colonizers. That's what King Fritz said, that he will trample the world if they come for Paradis, but Marley's imperialist goals brought their own demise.
Eren wanted to end Titans and end suffering of Yimir (which no one cares about, all of them incl Zeke were just using her). I never said rumbling is about ending the war. It's about ending Titan's curse, so no one can use this ungodly power ever. In the end, unfortunately Paradis fell in hands of fascists again (aka Jaegerists) and the cycle of violence continues (albeit small scale for at least 1 generation as shown in end credits)
You are doing same thing as everyone, cherry picking points that supports your view point. You are not better than me or anyone. No one is objectively wrong here that's what I like abt AoT
"not sure it will blow up?"
Bet.
Words have meaning, too bad most people just parrot words while not knowing what the words mean or the history behind it.
Ha, I was following along with you until you showed the evidence of your ignorance on current events and politics.
Let's put it this way, if there are 6 people alone on an island, and 5 of them decide to kill the 6th, is that 6th person justified in killing 4 of the people in self defense? If the 5th person left alive then kills the 6th person is that okay? People are assuming the world population in AoT is similar to the modern day, this isn't the case, Paradis apparently had 1/5th the combined population of the rest of the world. Or how about you are alone in your home and 5 people break in, are you justified in killing 4/5 of them? Let's take it back to AoT. 3 men killed Mikasa's parents and kidnapped her, was Eren wrong to kill 2 of them and Mikasa a 3rd one? If Eren did nothing then 3 more people would have been alive, fewer people dying is better even if it means a little girl is going to have you know what happening to her going forward? The question is what is morally justified and what philosophy you hold to as to what your stance is.
The discussion devolves because the Marleyian's and Jeagerist's in AoT match the people throwing out the accusations of fascism so they don't want the cult members possibly changing their views or waking up to reality through the AoT story.
I love how they show Eren as Satan or Lucifer bringing the Revelation or the New World Order on the entire human planet and the first thing they go with is fascism instead of occultism.
Truth be told, sometimes I wonder if this insistence on reading it as fascist propaganda is only because of the Jeagerists plot point.
Support comment!
didn't you know that facism means "anything I don't like"
I would heavily advise you watch A Man Of Many Cats video on this subject titled Who Was Right About Attack On Titan. There is a bunch of context you missed and honestly i dont blame you for it because of the misinformation spread by Japanese war crime deniers. But I am almost certain that if you watch that video you will see why there is more than valid credence to the claim of AOT being a fascist piece of media
So in other words, you can’t actually argue against anything posited in his analysis, so you hide behind “missing context” and point towards someone else’s analysis that agrees with your bias.
@@curtisedmonds9933 the things missing are addressed in said video, I personally didnt feel like taking the time to type all of it out considering the video I suggested is longer than this one and i dont think i would be able to articulate the points made in the video I suggested better than the video itself. Doesnt take away from what im saying tho
@@talaf6616 You aren't saying anything. You're hiding behind someone else's opinions because you can't form your own.
@@curtisedmonds9933 my opinion is that is is a fascistic piece of media and i just so happen to have found a youtube video that not only encapsulates my thoughts but provides information i was also not aware of. Why not watch the video instead of coming at me to see if what i am saying about the video is true. After all i am making this comment to get the attention to the creator of this video….not you
Hey hey its me! I was kinda wondering if Geekoutter had encountered my video.
The Akiyama section was something that I thought might interest him specifically.
But also I thought that he actually did seem like he put time into his essay and so might be open to other perspectives or thoughts.
Thanks for mentioning the video too btw! 🙂
Any kind of media always has an agenda, a message meant for the audience. However, the audience should take it with a grain of salt. And if we assume that AOT is fascist, we should just enjoy the show and not let it affect our beliefs, and this should be the case with any other thing that we see in the media.
I totally agree every media has an agenda! I just happen to believe to AoT does not have a fascist one, as many people have been saying these last few years.
Political extremism on all sides is more common these days due to multiple factors so it's no wonder more people unironically support characters like Eren.
We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.
when the revolution comes tyou will not be spared
Honorary Marleyan vibes are heavy in this video.
Not fascist (enough)
The creator is a fascist though, and there is a significant portion of the fan base that is fascist. Which says a lot.
It's not Harry Potter as the fascism isn't so overt, especially since it feels like the creator feels like they where going "hahaha... yea, I would NEVER think that..."
Pretty sure eren is meant to be a self insert.
Though saying AOT is anti-semetic is crazy, comparing eldians to real minorities is real-world racist.
I'm gonna assume you didn't watch the video before commenting, because I directly make my case regarding "claims the creator is a fascist" (misinformation) and "significant portion of the fan base being fascist" (it doesn't say a lot). I'm not gonna write here what I already said in the video. You are of course entitled to disagreeing with my take, but you didn't address any of it.
I will add something that's not in my video, regarding the "Eren is a self insert": www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/arts/television/attack-on-titan.html
In this interview right after the anime finale, Isayama explains his vision and intentions with the story, and Eren's arc is revealed as being in part a parallel to his own feelings as a mangaka that found unexpected success but had already decided on the ending for the series. He didn't want to change his vision despite having to expand the story beyond expected levels, and thus felt constricted by it, which is expressed on Eren's obsession with freedom and unwillingness to stray from the visions of the future.
@@GeekOuter Now that I am watching the video, There is just one thing. What's with the genocide downplaying in the ending? That's the only hole in this really. There is also the "Libertarian" Fascist lack of understanding with the difference between Negative Freedom and Positive Freedom, which isn't deconstructed but rather perpetuated with Eren in the ending, given the "Thank you for committing mass murder for our sake" genocide apologia line.
I definitely disagree with the notion that AOT's eldian's represent real world minorities that a lot of people make, because as a minority myself (Mixed race person, part Polish actually) and I find the comparison between Eldians and Real Minority groups offensive, cant speak on the antisemitism side as I am not Jewish but comparing them to real minorities as a whole is just Racist.
@@nerdcuddles7731 In get into it on the "The Ending of it all" chapter and why I think" it's not genocide downplaing. Is there a specific point you didn't agree with?
Well, that wasn't clearly explained at all. I think u do the same incomplete analysis that u accuse others of doing.
U say that the series is anti-war because it depicts the reality of war. But depiction is not condemnation as much as it is not endorsement. And, more importantly, ur statement is simply not true. The story often glorifies war and battle. This is even more pronounced in the anime which has music. The opening shows soldiers readuy to fight, erwin's charge is portrayed as heroic, eren idolizes the military from the very beginning. The attack at the speech by Tybur is accompanied by inspirational music and glorified by the participants.
U read it as antiwar because of ur perogative, but as there are instances depicting or even denouncing war there are just as many praising or romanticing it. There is nothing "clear" about it.
U rightly noticed Eren has always been a monster. But u also notice but don't dwell upon the fact that no one treats him that way. U read in ur sensibilities into the story, instead of what is the actual story. Eren is not a monster in the story until his commitment to mass genocide. And the audience is supposed to think he is a hero until that point. So, the question is why write a story where the protagonist is a villian?
And u point to other villians being cool or sympathetic, but they are usually not the protagonist or pov character, which gives them even more sympathy. And, more importantly, they are established as villians from the beginning.
Magneto is a villian, but u don't get his backstory first. Sequencing matters. As an example, take Darth Vader. The first movie establishes his villainy and the prequels show his backstory. Now, u may say 'no, the first movie establishes his backstory then he becomes a villian. But that's my point. The sequence at which u are exposed to points in a story change ure view of the character.
And aot goes out of its way to present a mass murderer as sympathetic. It is as if u were to make a biography of the chancelllor of the third reich completely from his perspective and make him sympathetic.
That would be a choice and u would be rightly criticized for appearing to endorse him and his views.
Eren is a fascist and he is the protagonist. And no he doesn't instantly become the antagonist because he is the villain. He still moves the plot, everyone reacts to what he does. This is Eren's story. The story of a fascist.
The author could have chosen any of the scouts as protagonist or a pov character. But he chose a fascist. The final scenes do nothing to change the facts that Eren is a fascist. Why he commits mass murder or is a fascist is irrelevant. He has committed atrocities and he is the 'star' of the show.
It is not normal and not how villians are traditionally handled. Maybe he is going against the norm to critique this villain. Or maybe the norm exists because centering a supposed anti-war, anti-fascism story on the villain as opposed to the victims or heroes implicitly creates a pro-war, fascist story.
I completely disagree with your assesment for the reasons I gave in the video. If I were to reply to your whole comment, I'd just be repeating myself. So just a few points on what I believe to be faulty logic not covered in my video:
"But depiction is not condemnation as much as it is not endorsement."
Technically true. What defines if it's endorsement or condemnation is the actual text within the depiction. Like I argue extensively, I believe such text to be overwhemingly clearly against war. If you say the text itself doesn't matter, only the fact there's depiction, then you're contradicting yourself and saying depiction is, necessarily, endorsement. I reject that notion.
"eren idolizes the military from the very beginning."
Even before the twist, there's a scene in season 1 if I'm not mistaken of Eren falling out of love with the military (more specifically, the survey corps) once they come back all injured and he sees a boy with glowing eyes of admiration just like him when he was kid. Furthermore, like I said, the idolization does not last the whole series and I think by the time the last arc rolls around the point has been made the military is not perfect, honorable and very much corruptible. If anything, the story "idolizes" the survey corps specifically, because all the other branches are constantly depicted as either drunken pushovers or corrupt people serving the aristocracy. Again, context simply debunks this notion that the military is meant to be glorified.
"Eren is not a monster in the story until his commitment to mass genocide. And the audience is supposed to think he is a hero until that point."
That's how a twist works. You think he's something else, then is revealed to be another. How long the ruse takes is irrelevant and feels to me like an over analysis in order to forcibly create "evidence" of the story's themes.
"Magneto is a villian, but u don't get his backstory first. Sequencing matters."
Completely disagree. I think you're reaching for straws and moving the goalposts in order to justify the double standard. Changing the sequence is an artistic choice to arrive at the same effect, not to secretely create more sympathy for your villain and, as such, argue through subtext they're right. Magneto being first estabilished as a villain does not change the fact he has a sympathetic backstory and, by Stan Lee's own words, "was meant to show how a good person could do bad things". Arguing switching the order is somehow proof you side with Magneto is really reaching. You may personally prefer it that way and that's fine. But you either admit it's okay to attempt to sympathise a villain, or you don't.
"Eren is a fascist and he is the protagonist. And no he doesn't instantly become the antagonist because he is the villain. He still moves the plot, everyone reacts to what he does. This is Eren's story. The story of a fascist."
You're being overly technical and pedantic, talking in circles over definitions.
Eren stops being the main POV character in the final arc. Especially once the rumbling activates, there's barely any first person input from him and we go through the story mostly through the perspective of Armin and the other characters.
An antagonist is simply an adversary, the opposition to the characters we are following, which by this point is Armin and the rest. There's nothing within the definition of an antagonist in fictional media that excludes them from moving the plot along, or from having been the protagonist. Also, yes, people react to the antagonists actions...so what? He's the antagonist. The person creating the problem our heroes must overcome. Isn't that self-evident?
And that's it from me. The rest of your reply has some pretty egregious false symmetries or was already addressed in my video. I'm not trying to be smarmy, it's just that I spent a lot of time doing this and as such I don't want to do it all over again in the comment section.
U miss my points. I am not ignoring the text just looking at it as a whole. U 'believe' that the text is on the whole a condemnation. I don't, but I don't convert my beliefs into 'clear' facts. I admit there is grey and serves the story by contextualizing the violence, sometimes comdemnable, sometimes praiseworthy.
The military leadership is not glorified, but the military as an institution certainly is. That is the entire coup arc. The military is not bad as an institution, it just has poor leadership. Most of the actors are linked yo the military. Civilian forces have no agency and, more importantly, the story says they should have no agency. Military rule is simply a given.
But Eren being a monster is not a twist as u note. He's always been a monster. How can both be true simultaneously? U may say that the author purposefully leads the reader to believe he is a hero. But that is my point. Why make a mass murderer out to be a hero? U ignore this core question because u do not have a compelling answer. Rather than admit this, u retreat into selective analysis.
But u do not arrive at the same effect by changing the sequence. This is essentially to say sequencing doesn't matter. All paths reach the same endpoint. That's simply not true as should be 'clear' in storytelling. For example, when u see that Anakin was 'good', u more expect that Luke can turn Vader back to the good Anakin. But when all you've seen is Darth Vader, the less u expect and the more incredible the redemption. Also, with the 'I am ur father reveal', if watch the prequels first it has less impact. Sequencing is not just an artistic choice, it has narrative and thematic consequences. Ur approach to this is so analytical and shows a lack of understanding emotional attachment people have to protagonists.
U confuse pov with protagonist. Antagonists also have goals that protagonists are obstacles to. U oversimplify the dynamic. U label the alliance as heroes and deride team eren supporters as not getting the story. But maybe they get it more than u do. Perhaps that's scary to u. The story has taught them to see Eren as the good guy, he is the protagonist. So why deride them for taking the story as it is, not for what u believe it to be.
They understand what the story is saying better than u do. U want to see the story as one of heroes and villians based on ur pre-existing moral worldview. But they see the story as one of heroes and villians based on us versus them, my team vs their team. Which is the explicit text. This is the essential character of fascistic thought. U would like to see it as this thought as foreign to the story instead of reckoning with the story for establishing and promoting this thought from the beginning of the work.
I think you are too fixated that a protagonist is good and not bad no matter what actions they do because they are the pov in the story so therefore they should be a role model or someone we hould glorify as a hero but clearly it's not.
There are other examples aside of the video shown like Teito Monogatari series where the protagonist is supposedly Yasunori Kato since he is the POV in the story but his character is not supposed to be designed as a role model or someone we have to cheer on since his aim was to destroy Japan and he was actually behind of the real-life calamities and disasters in the country while the antagonist are the shamans who are trying to stop his action and trying to maintain the safety of Japan.
Another one is Simoun from El Filibusterismo/Reign of Greed which he aims to overthrow the spanish government colonizing the Philippines out of revenge but his plans are foiled by divine intervention and realizes that he was wrong after getting preached by a priest then succumbs to his own death after drinking a poison beforehand.
And I'm sure you are very familiar with Light Yagami/Kira from Death Note which is another example of a protagonist who was not someone we should cheer on or a role model.
"but as there are instances depicting or even denouncing war there are just as many praising or romanticing it."
Have you considered that all of the characters who do this in the show are shown to be uh, well, not good people?
@@skepticalbaby7300 Found the F.D. Signifier simp lmao
Sionist...
this looks like an hour of very skippable cope
Hey, man, thanks for commenting and boosting engagement!
If you ever feel like checking out for yourself wether it's copium or not, the video's always there for your (hopefully) enjoyment.
Have a good one!
@@GeekOuter oh lord he even responded you hate to see it
@@Lthethird
Indeed you do, lol, cope harder, fucking troll X D
Just let F.D. Signifier tell you what to think, it's okay.
So as a creator on the opposite side of the discussion.
I actually think that it might be worth your time to watch this video if you want to seriously understand the perspective of someone who is arguing in good faith for their point.
I watched this video before making my video.Because I wanted to solid understanding of the argument. Now I have some very serious disagreements.And I address them in my essay.
But to write this off as pure copium is just an unwillingness to have your own ideas challenged.
He might be incorrect, but hes not incoherent or coming at things entirely out of pocket.
Again I disagree and I argue the opposite point in my own work. But I think it is worth acknowledging when people do their diligence and make a case, and it is worth us treating that case as a valid perspective that we should engage with.
Anywho, food for thought. Even if you disagree sometimes it is worth hearing what people are saying.
For me, Eren calling himself an “idiot” was his way of saying “no more how powerful or smart I am, no matter how hard I tried to find another way, I couldn’t change what happened and I blame myself for everything because I’ve always been a monster,” but them Armin tells him that he thanks him for taking him and Mikasa to the outside and owns the fact that showing Eren the book about the outside world ultimately caused the Rumbling in the first place, which was also kind of King Karl’s fault mostly, since he wiped out people’s memories. While I liked the anime version ending, since it’s been fixed and not made as some edgy justification for genocide, I still feel unsettled with Historia’s child not being Eren’s. It never even once mentioned anything about who the father was and just left it unanswered. And NO, I do not support the Rumbling or genocide, just to be clear.
I do remember a scene explaining the father of Historia's child was just a farmer that knew her from childhood. That's just it. Eren being Historia's lover was a popular theory back in the day, but that's just not the case canonically and its why a lot of people criticize Historia's handling after the political arc.
@@GeekOuter Or the farmer could just be the stepfather of the child. Dunno.
Oh yeah Historia’s child is the most important thing ever 🤣🤣🤣why the f Eren would even want to become a father if he knew he would die??? He literally did everything to make his friends hate him, and you think that man would want a fatherless child after him???
I understand it was your ship, but why are you unsettled lmao 😭
@@sabsain2399this person posted another comment where they said the show is critiquing Critical Race Theory. Think about that. The show that has one of its main themes centered around remembering bloody, oppressive history is apparently actually about how CRT is silly, according to that comment. Absolutely unsurprised that it comes from someone who felt "unsettled" that their fav ship didn't happen in the story lol.
WHAT A FANTASTIC VIDEO. Thank you for wording what AoT really is.
THANK YOU
30:34 It can also be argued that the self-hatred that the Eldians living in Marley were brainwashed with can also be a clever critique of Critical Race Theory, further how harmful all types of racism, even inverted racism, can truly be. Spot on!
It is blatantly a perfect reflection of CRT in the real world, but many will always deny it because they are desperate to cling to the idea that it is necessary to combat "systemic racism", if it even exists.
It's not a critique of critical race theory. Critical race theory is an ideology talking about racism being in institutions
@@hbsupreme1499 But it does pressure whites to hate themselves.