Why Gothic's Map Is The Best RPG Map Ever | Gothic 1 Analysis
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ย. 2019
- Gothic's Map is one of the strangest in the RPG genre. But it's differences work wonders to create a compelling and immersive experience. I break down why Gothic's map is so fantastic and how other developers are getting it wrong.
Games shown in the Video:
Fallout New Vegas
The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
Gothic - เกม
20 years ago Gothic had something that truly surprised me - reasonable humans that fled if the player was hostile and too powerful.
Yeah, like diggers during extermination of Old Camp.
@@kotletsmazony7285 Or people, that you've already beaten up easily earlier. They remembered, they didn't stand a chance then, so they didn't even try again. Another thing - if you've dropped someone with a single blow, instead of aggroing all witnesses (or at least those powerful enough), they just turned around or stepped away, figuring it's better not to get involved.
I LOVED how human enemies didn't die when their health run out, they just fell unconscious, and woke up a minute later, never again wanting to fight the player. Killing was possible, but optional, usually leading to some bad aftermath. This was was so realistic and immersive!
@@rreece90 tbh its still pretty realistic, back then people had honor and stopped when you went down, nowadays people are rats and cant even wait to stomp you further when you got knocked down...
@@pyrokar1990 People turning around was because you've beaten them before.
I would even argue, that you don't ever need a map in Gothic, because the world is so well designed, that you can find your way, or get shown the way by npcs in the world.
It would be cool to show someone the game and not let them use a map. See how it would go. It would probably be a pretty tough experience though.
@@GamedevAdventures It's how I learned it though, when I started playing it at 10 years old :D
@@sapiensfromterra5103 Oh wow that's sweet!
well yes after few hours in game you dont need it but its helpful at start
To be fair, Gothic had very small world. It's hard to get really lost.
Not many people from outside of Germany/eastern Europe even know this game. Great to see it here. The Gothic series is my number one design inspiration for the games I make.
99 % of Polish gamers have played this game xD we have a lot of gamers
In Italy it was included in a gaming magazine so it may not be as unknown as you think it is.
@@fabiosordo5313 Yeah but that's still Europe. I am talking about the USA in particular.
Well, for us it's a great inspiration to (hungarian gamedevs).
@@damiandrop8884 Agree, nowadays coming alot polish meme videos about game and everyone love it XD
In earlier patches of the game you did not even have the arrow showing your location. You had to use it like a real world map. It could be very frustrating when you were lost, but it made hidden locations somehow more mysterious, because at times you would not know how to get there a second time.
Had it on the cd, don't remember the arrow. It was easy to figure out where you at tho.
earlier Thief games also didn't have any arrows, and they were placed in cities.
The map in gothic is small, even without the arrow it is easy to find your way, just follow the landmarks
Thank you! I could have sworn I didn't have the position pointer back then
@@Faygris Thanks, I partly wrote the comment to make sure I am not crazy and making up memories.
@Jifin^-^ It's not BS. I love the Gothic map without the arrow. Like the video says you will truly learn your way around while playing the game. It is excellent.
It's one of the details that makes Gothic so good and the remake will suffer if it doesn't realize this.
Great video! Thanks for taking the time to make it.
I also love how in Gothic 2 you first have to go through dangerous forest, then make some Miniquests on Lobarts Farm, until you arrive Khorinis, where you feel safety
I died so many times fighting the first goblin before I figured out how to attack.
I loved that if you cheat yourself a paladin armor in the beginning, the city guard will immediately let you enter and make a comment about your great armor lol
@@bramvanduijn8086 i know that feeling :D was the same for me.
Great video. There is one detail I want to add: you don't start with the map, you're able to buy it fairly soon in the old camp. In my opinion this makes it more immersive since your character doesn't know this place and basically buys knowledge about it with the map.
And when you use the map, your character physically looks at it :D
@@meyes1098 This game is just too great, my childhood, whenever i hear it's menu theme, i almost cry
Pff... buying. I had "Arguments" to get it for free.
@@tobiaspause1775 Ahaha, lmao, I always start polite, buying everything, like a good citizen, but then, the time flies... haha
@@davidpapezs5654 Well I normally start by punching every digger in his face for the exp. You are a prisoner after all.
thanks. i like that this game is getting so much good feedback these days. it deserves it.
I've always loved Gothic... Felt so satisfying when I beat it using the Swamp faction. I am stuck in Gothic 2..... I hit that wall where I need levels and ran out of bugs to kill and all the mercenaries can easily beat my butt.
@@OrhallaZander thats quite early, think i got furher, gothic 2 is quite hard tho, i also got stuck a little later.
and new camp for life! :D
@@OrhallaZander you need some skills at fights also always use 2 handed weapons those are just better since can hit further. yeah mercenaries are not the easiest to join
@@jebise1126 Thanks for the advice, I'm just having a hell of a time finding any experience where things don't kill me.... this is definately a "Make a Save, and try again" game in the beginning, just like the first.
@@jebise1126 I'm not sure how I got past this part years ago, beat all the mercenaries to join, even made it past all the orcs to old camp..... yet, I'm just sorely stuck right now.
Great Video! I also love how NPCs will ask you if you even own a map when they want to mark a position for you on the map. And if you don't they go "oh well, then I'll just have to describe it for you"
Yeah but this dialog was in Gothic 2 ^^
@@randomdude2026 Didn't Urshak need a map to draw orcish teritory and his respond depends wether you had map or not?
@@krzkam7792 you're right, that's for Gothic 1. In Gothic 2 there's like three instances for this, and in the Colony one knight gives a map for free and with the mines marked.
I played gothic 1 first time in 2019 and it became my favorite rpg game out of all I ever played, map is too good and immersion is even better
"...people always talk..."
You shouldnt belive everything you hear :3
Some people never learn...
Ah yes, the good old "A new day and nothing has changed" just when you had a night of killing the entire old camp for experience.
Feel bit jealous, wish I would play it now for the first time. Witcher or GoD4 are awesome, but that raw feeling in Gothic is amazing. If they don't catch that atmosphere in remake it'll be useless
@@geeery205 Jeśli masz na myśli remake od THQ to nie robił bym sobie żadnej nadziei. Będzie to coś innego niż Gothic, ale będzie się za niego podawać, czyli znowu podkopie nieco autorytet i dobre imię pierwszej, kultowej odsłony.
You are right about the map stuff. I also found the interface and menu design in
Gothic pretty immersive, because it is very minimalistic and it does not throw you out of the atmosphere even though it was terribly annoying and difficult to handle.
There is so many to learn from Gothic for modern game designers in my opinion.
These games are just so mindblowing to me. I can't believe how ahead of their time they were
aaah Gothic, one of the best games I ever played.
>see this video
>immediately install Gothic
Anyone else knows this feel?
I don't... because Gothic I and Gothic II never get uninstalled from my PC.
@Krzysztof Krzysztofowski I never figured how to install mods ,am too dummy
@Krzysztof Krzysztofowski 1.) download and install original Gothic I in Steam
2.) Download and install Gothic I patch 1.08k
3) Download and install Gothic I Player Kit v1.08k
4) Download and install Gothic I System Pack 1.8
These aren't mods, just patches. Afterwards you are able to play the game in the original feeling
no
every couple of years, first two games
I love maps that aren't one big cheat. I feel like Morrowind's map and fast travel system was a great balance. I could ride the silt striders between the major cities, visit the Mage's Guild to teleport between guild halls, or even take the gondola's between the cantons in Vivec. And whenever I felt like exploring, I could just walk between locations or even wander off the roads to look for something fun.
Mark/Recall, Almsivi and Divine intervention, as well as the propylon indexes. That too.
I liked the patch for the Map where shiplines and stuff where marked
Very funnily, the map can also be used to perform the biggest glitch in this game, my jumping, opening the map, closing it and jumping again you can jump infinitely high to reach inaccessible locations early and become insanely OP.
I think fast travel makes a game feel immersive, but somehow in Oblivion, because there is no cart or anything that you can SEE, fast travel feels like teletransportation.
Active effort in exploring a new world is what makes this activity so rewarding. In Gothic you have to pay attention to the details of the environment and you cannot just stare at a minimap to reach your destination. Paths are learned, either through independent exploration, through descriptions of NPCs or by having an NPC actually show you the way. it's so much more realistic and also adds liveliness and credibility. A mental model of the world appropriated in this way ensures resonance on many levels. All the moments in which you asked yourself whether you have to go right or left to get to this or that place have a lasting impact on the relationship between you and these places.
In addition to the map design, the level design in gothic is also awesome. You can write a lot about it, but one point that I find particularly strong is how exploration of the world is limited only by your own experience. Regarding the dangers of the open game world, the game is never patronizing in an abstract way, only in a natural, realistic way. the hunters in front of the Old Camp warn of the forest, the guards at the entrance to the orc area tell you that you have to be insane to continue there. but they don't hinder you. The world is not designed for you as a player, it is not an ego tunnel like in so many games, instead it is a believable place that you can gradually make your own. The motto "always ahead" does not prevail here. Rather, it is important to adhere to very natural rules, such as "don't go into the forest", "don't stray from the path", "always have a torch with you" etc. The NPCs keep reminding you of these. These rules not only tell you what to do, they also play with your fears and challenge your curiosity.
Great video. Gothic 1 and 2 are my favorite games of all time. Surely most immersive games.
They are also my top favorite games. I also love Gothic 3 despite peoples complaints.
@@retromegabitsegadude nice
same. but witcher 3 is really good too :)
Thief 1/2 also have great maps exactly because they lack information and force you to explore. Thief 2014 on the other hand just gives you everything. Makes it feel like work.
T4 shouldn't be mentioned in polite society.
The Gothic is a masterpiece. It was the first game I really enjoyed to play.
The map(s) in Outward are very similar to this, except there are no markings for the player's whereabouts. It still works!
Another feature related to the map that really stands out to me is that the NPCs often give you instructions to get to certain places using landmarks that seem to completely contradict the roads laid out on the map, thus encouraging you to not depend on the map (which also makes sense if you consider that buying the map in the first place is fairly expensive and you may not even have a map when you try to go to the New Camp or the Old Mine for the first time. Direct shortcuts, however, often lead you through dangerous areas that you will not be able to survive early in the game. This makes the directions given by NPCs extremely valuable because they actually tell you the easiest/most manageable/most survivable way to get to certain places. Once you understand the terrain (and have cleared some wildlife), you will naturally figure out what is the shortest way. Which also often deviates from the roads. For instance, the fastest way to get to the New Camp from the Old Camp is actually walking along the river (or swimming if you're going the other way). But Blooflies and Goblins make this way impassable during the first couple of hours. This is how Gothic allows you to explore more and more as you level up, although large parts of the colony are accessible and reachable immediately after you start a new game.
I'd argue that you forgot or rather missrespresented one important aspect, although it isn't explicitly part of the map itself. You mentioned the map might seem useless to new players, which for the map itself may be true but for the game is not. If you get sent on a quest you, for the most part anyway, get descriptions of the path to take or npc's who show you around the world. I think the combination of npc dialogue/behaviour and the map is what makes this map so immersive and ingenious. The game is designed in a way where you just don't need a boatload of information on the map.
It depends on the scale of the game, the focus and level design. I don't mind learning small hub games by heart but if someone told me I had to explore Skyrim without a map and a compass I would lose it and it's not even that big by some standards.
I would agree fast traveling everywhere from arrow to arrow it's game breaking.
In my opinion of old open world maps, first gothic has the best size of the map. Not too big, so you can learn it by heart, get everywhere on foot in a reasonable time and not too small, so every important location is there.
I played gotihc in my childhood and loved exploring the world with the map. At the moment I like to do it as an adult in the real world and use google earth in exactly the same way as the map back then in gothic. You know exactly where you are and you can roughly see what it looks like, but you can only judge what it really looks like when you have explored it on site.
Personally my favourite type of maps is like the one in DayZ (although I am not a huge fan of the game itself). You have all the details you would expect a self-respecting cartographer to add to the map, down to terrain features like contours and vegetation, but there is no GPS, i.e. you do not have a marker indicating where you are on the map. This completely flips the idea of the traditional game map on its head, and forces you to use the map as it would be used in real life. It is easy to figure out where you need to go, and if there are NPCs in the game, they would be happy to mark the quest objectives on your map, but there are no quest arrows to follow, and you always risk getting lost. You will need to pay attention to the world and learn how to orient yourself using the features of the world. Contrary to games with "dumb maps" like Morrowind, finding where to go is easy, but figuring out how to get there is hard. It truly makes traversing the game world a part of your gameplay, rather than just an interlude between the real game.
The thing about Gothic map is it works so neatly because the world is fairly well designed and extremely small is scope when compared to modern open worlds.
I’m currently playing through Witcher 3 for the first time. I disabled the minimap so that I actually look at the game instead of the top left of my screen all the time. Easy solution, right? No. The locations in Witcher are generally too big to be easily memorable, you have no landmarks to orient yourself quickly, there’s a LOT of crossroads (that could benefit greatly from ingame signs pointing out which road leads where), the locations on map aren’t visually distinct and rely on specific markers (for instance, merchant here, quest here, fast travel point etc.). On top, ngl, my spacial awareness is pretty bad.
This leads to situations where I
a) open the map every 10 seconds (when I hit a crossroad or I’m completely off the road) which completely screws with my (and oh god I hate to use this word) “immersion”
or b) get lost and go the exact opposite direction I wanted to
My conclusion is that Witcher 3 isn’t build for this type of play, and if you go out of your way to restrict yourself in order to improve your travel experience, you’ll hit similiar roadblocks as I did, and it’s probably impossible to make an easily readable map where a player can navigate relatively with an area of this scale.
For examples of maps done right, there are two games that instantly pop in my mind.
First of them is Minecraft. Reasons are- map is an actual item that doesn’t put you out of your experience, it’s scope is relatively limited by default, therefore you won’t get lost or overlmeded, fog of war and your location marker makes you want to fill it out completely, encouraging thorough exploration.
The second is Outward. Despite the downfalls and jank of the game, I’d say the exploration is done generally right. You’re given a map that’s half cartographically correct, half illustrated points of interest, and a compass. No player location. What makes this actually GOOD in my opinion is that there are almost always one or two landmarks visible in the distance (on the first map, there’s actually a giant purple mountain right in the middle, sticking out like a sore thumb, easing you into the map system without player marker), and with help of compass, you can always deduce where you are approximately. That combined with nicely marked mentionworthy locations that encourage wonder and curiosity (combined with laughably forgetable quests), you are heavily incentivized to just go and find your own adventure.
For me an ideal map in open world RPG would be a combination of Outward and Minecraft. Small area(s), hand-drawn and fairly accurate, but with a few landmarks I could always orient myself with, no player marker, compass, not a menu I could open that would take me out of the game, but an actual item my character would open up.
If you’ve read through all of this, thank you for your attention. Feel free to respond with your opinion, as I am curious of what other people prefer, and I’d like to broaden my own horizons when it comes to maps and game design.
Was initially an RTS player, started with dune 2. Gothic was my first RPG. Always liked that map. Even now if ill install it a new, i know everything around like the back of my hand.
Much respect for the developers of Gothic world (map). Realise that in Gothic 1 there are 3 different maps: main map, Old mine and Sleepers temple. Which means that every single building, or cave or tunnel is designed to fit perfectly with any other objects in that same map. There are no doors that you click on and get transported into some house. Art at its finest.
i like the map of gothic 1 too
but you have to keep in mind that the area is relatively small
(thats not a bad thing, everything in the areas is meaningfull)
its not because of the map, that you know your way around easily after a while
its because the map is very small
my last playtrough of gothic is 15 years old
and i still would find myself around
This is exactly the thing I liked about Classic World of Warcraft. Reading and understanding where to go and what to do, as there was no UI indicator. These days whenever I play WoW, my friends just blaze through the quests, without reading them, because UI helps them understanding what to do, in every step of the way, but without knowing why they do it.
Even years after having last played Gothic 1 and 2 I still know the whole map.
Just playing Gothic 2 and the valley of the mines is just familiar as if I had been playing Gothic 1 just a few weeks before. I am still hoping vor Gothic 4 and going to start a new Gothic 3 game once I’m finished.
one thing that flashed me completely in gothic was the appearence of a german band named "in extremo"at the german version. It is one of the most favorite bands of my mum and i instendly shouted to her to come over
Gothic from 2001...... an RPG where rain particles hit the roof.. and does not go through it like in Morrowind, Oblivion & Skyrim.
Maybe your skyrim was pirated, cuz that wasn't the case actually
@@engrfka In Skyrim and Oblivion the rain clips through almost anything on outdoor zones. That's why there are mods to fix it. Pirated or legit doesn't matter, so stop talking bullshit
Wow, i didn't knew that the fact that if rain clips through the roof, it's automatically the worst game ever.
Wow, I didn't know that one man's comment about rain clipping in a game actually means that he's calling that game "the worst game ever".
muh graphics
This just gave me major nostalgia. I really have to play this game again soon :D
And I agree with you about the simplicity of the map adding to the experience. Many devs these days add so many features that are supposed to help the player (but sometimes are just confusing me tbh) while totally forgetting to check if they fit into the game's universe. Gothic was one of the most immersive games I ever played, and you helped me figuring out why, so thanks for this video ^^
I find it wonderful that you are making videos about Gothic. Gothic is one of my favorite video games, because what it does is kind of like video game Realism (the 19th century art movement). Most things in Gothic feel like they could actually exist. The society is shaped by personal connections, I find it very believable that in an actual prison takeover situation, the social situation would end up similar to Gothic. I never saw another video game that portrayed regular dudes so realistically.
Gothic set my expectation for what a good open world RPG should be.
And all other open world games since then have been complete disappointments.
Sad that Bethesda spiraled downwards that "Theme Park feeling" with every new game more and more. Ironically it also was Bethesda that messed up Gothic 3 which tried to be more like Oblivion and failed because it forgot everything that made G1+2 so great.
@@r.c.christian4633 You can't really blame Bethesda for someone else trying to be more like them.
I also think that G3s development was a shere disaster.
@@TheSorrel As far as I know it was mostly the publisher who nudged PB to include all those Bethesda features and to make sure that the PR department can say that G3 world is bigger than Oblivion.
@@r.c.christian4633 But it also was a deliberate design decision by PB to not include new quests after you cleared a city. I think this was the ultimate fault of Gothic 3. It just made the whole world feel boring and more like a game. Good job, you're done here, now go to the next level and never come back.
The game had plenty of great moments but ultimately it felt like you took the life out of it the more you progressed. So I think it was this design decision that made the game so much worse than the others.
Gothic 1 and 2 had their fair share of bugs as well. But the atmosphere never faltered.
As a huge fan of Gothic 1&2 I can just recommend you guys to check out Gothic 3 and Vampire: The Maskerade - Bloodlines if you haven't dones so already.
Both games improved drastically with the community patches.
Gothic 3 turned from almost unplayable to really good and VTMB from good to absolutely fantastic.
Vampire is easily as good as Gothic alas completely different and one of the best games I have ever played.
Gothic I + II (Night of the Raven) are some of the most immersive CRPGs ever created. The world building of those titles is excellent. It's dense, interesting, every corner of the world has purpose. Exploration is rewarding instantly.
Neo: So you're telling me I'll be good at using the map?
Morpheus: No Neo. What I'm telling you is, when the time comes... You won't have to.
I like Kenshi's map mechanic where you have to fill in the map bit by bit by finding vendors who have regional maps you can buy, and even then, there are lots of locations missing that only get filled in when you stumble close enough to "see" them.
I loved that game. You could go anywhere you pleased right from the start, but it was usually not the smartest idea and you knew it without having any warnings on the map, or on screen messages.
The successor of the game was much bigger but reached the limit of how big the world can get and still be carefully planned and full of life and little details.
If anyone wants to play Gothic, just please install the system packs. Its for your better good. Game footage shown here is for true OGs :D
I REALLY like this map system! It makes so much sense to me, with the "realism" of the map. The only addition I would like in a map system would be the ability to make your own notes on the map. Like, if I was using a map (in real life, let's say), I would mark certain things on the map with little notes, or my own personal symbols for reference that would remain on the map for the whole game, (unless you were able to buy a new map that didn't include the personal notes/symbols). I think that addition to this map system would make it, well, perfect (or at least as near to as possible).
Very good video, you nailed it!
The best thing about the Gothic map for me was that you start without it. When I ventured forth without it, I felt weak and fragile, anxious to get lost in the dangerous wilderness.
Soothing were Diego's words when he said get yourself a map.
Another great game-map can be found in Outward, where you don't have your actual location shown on the map, hence you have to actually use it as a MAP and make out where you even are :D
The first CRPG I ever played was called Questron. I think it came out in 1984.
Questron's map was amazing. First, you didn't have one. You were dropped in the world with no guidance at all, and no idea where anything was. There was a town visible (Geraldtown) from your starting location, but that was it.
As soon as you went up a level, merchants would start telling you, "Mesron wants to see you." Mesron was the court wizard in the royal castle, but nothing in the game would tell you where the castle was. You just had to find it.
But when you did, there was a map room, and there you could view a map of the known world.
That was the only map in the game. It's important, though, that it was a map of the "known" world. Because the map only showed one continent, and the second half of the game took place on a different continent. But even better, the "knowledge" of the world that had informed the map was incorrect. There was one really substantial error on the map, and that error effectively gated access to the other continent, because the map told you main port was on a lake, and thus did not have access to the sea. However, if you tried to cross one particular mountain range you would be stopped by a straight which connected the "lake" to the ocean, and then you could take your ship out and see what was there. You could have done that before, but the game implicitly told you it was impossible, so you probably wouldn't try until later.
I haven't played Gothic 1 yet, but i played and finished Gothic 2 like 12 years ago and i 200% agree with this analysis!
What's amazing about this game is that I did a lot of exploring and thanks to all the memories I made of the locations, when I got the quests to go to them I knew where to go. I used my brain not some special UI to figure it out so that was just more satisfying. Also more satisfying when you find the location.
Gothic 1&2 had one of the best worlds to play and explore. The way that you had to explore things that was not simply from point A to point B like most modern AAA titles but a mixture of up, down , left and right to find that one spot those bushes and so much more...... it always felt so thrilling and rewarding!
The point I loved the most was how nothing changed on the map after discovering the previously useless drawing was of a tower. You had seen that place now and could commit to memory that place and connect it with the simple map. I am going to try to apply the simple map with arrow strategy to when my D&D group is moving through wilderness or to their next town etc. Not sure it will translate, but great video nonetheless.
Ahhh Gothic. One of my favourite games and an important part of my childhood. Good to see that it is still alive in 2020.
There's one thing, you failed to mention about the map - in different sections of the game, you can acquire (purchase, find or take) other maps - and all of these are similar in design (as in, made by someone in game), but quite clearly from a different point of view, with some minor tweaks. Don't know how to get to the Old Mine and the verbal directions are too vague? Purchase a map TO the Old Mine - it has a section containing the Old Camp and Old Mine cut out and the path marked - a simple map, made with a purpose of leading people into the mine (perfectly fitting in the game).
Once you get the quest to find all focus stones, you also get a map of the area in the South, BUT it's from before the barier was created, so some places there haven't been updated, some are now just ruins.
The key is in switching between different maps, to find what you sought.
Of course, several playthroughs in, I have the maps memorised in my head, but I still acquire all of them, for lore sake :)
Yes! Somehow I missed those maps or just didn't feel like spending the ore. But you are totally right.
One aspect not mentioned in the video related to MapQuest criticism, is that the game does unlock fast travel of sorts. When the game is sure you visited all the major locations a couple times and grew enough so that travelling between them is no longer challenging it starts handing out teleportation stones. Without them late game would turn into a chore, even with the relatively small map.
Great video, as always :) looking forward to see more videos about gamedev side of Gothic and your opinions aswell :)
I'm playing Gothic 2 Archolos now and at the begining, skimping for paper map, I drew one myself, just to remember which gate leads where. There are many roadsigns and NPCs used world directions, so I tried navigate with a sun, but it was so long since I played any gothic, that I forgotten where the clock is. :D It's like I'm a child again. Great feeling.
One of the best games ever made.
And i've got exactly the same opinion about map and stupidity of modern games/maps
Dokładnie 👍
I'm a long time Gothic (1,2,3). Great video, you really put a spotlight on the many peculiar things that make this game so unique. The beginning is usually a painful, slow grind but, man what a satisfaction getting stronger.
The last game I played similar to Gothic is Elex. Same creators if I'm not wrong. I'll always choose this kind of game developing over some triple a games that are great but sometimes pretty limited or too "helping"
Very few games have managed to create a true sense of adventure as well as Gothic 1+2. You're thrown into a world you don't know where everybody treats you like a useless idiot (which you are). You have to learn everything, discover every part of the world. Even though the map is pretty small, this design makes it much more livelier than today's Ubisoft style of game worlds with hundreds of interchangeable points of interest.
Outer Wilds is wildly different type of game, but it's the first game that gave me a familiar feeling of mystery, camping, suspense and childhood fun.
I recommend trying it if you miss playing Gothic 1 for the first time.
Have always said that Gothic 2's map is the best designed game world I've seen in any game, in terms of challenge for progress, reward for exploration, sensical world-building, and how the world opens up gradually but naturally and always keeps you excited. Great video!
Nice video man!!
All great points.
The one thing I would add is the ability to make your own notes on the map.
As someone who never gothic'd in my life, I can say I was able to get somewhat accurate on your important location quiz, I figured the old mine was just a bit east of actual- I poked at the death mountain looking place. New camp, I picked the first location just SWW of center. Close, but not too close.
Very good points, also I would add the fact that there's a delay to open it, which makes it feel like you are actually checking it only when needed, as opposed to instantly switching between the "game" and an outside-of-gameplay interface.
That you can even use Texture Packs and DX11 support for bump maps and shaders like wet surfaces during rain is also interesting.
very good review, thanks!
Graham would be proud
great video and explanation
The one game that I believe has an even better map is KCD on hardcore mode. Its just a beautifuly drawn historical map, no indicators, not even where you are currently, you have to look around to figure out your location.
But Gothics map suits its world and atmosphere perfectly. And it is an actual in-world item which is just incredible, even with an animation of the Nameless Hero looking at it.
Lots of good takes in here! I did my master's thesis on video game maps and break down how maps are designed to be tools that facilitate gameplay. Empty spots on the map and overall incomplete information is one of the best driving forces behind game exploration imo.
That's so cool! Can I read your thesis?
Yeah I appreciate maps like this. Also the game requires talking with a lot of NPCs. There are two NPCs at the Old Camp which is kind of like the first city you go to anyway that will guide you to those other camps free. They do this only once though so you have to use your memory on the road to get there. But it's really shown me a lot of help on that. Also another thing to know is that you don't get that full sized map in the beginning, you get a smaller map that shows only the Old Camp and New Camp side but not the Sect Camp. Also you had to negotiate or buy this map to begin with. The game treats the map like an actual item which you can also accidentally drop and be lost in the world. There's a more advanced map you can get but it's more expensive which is the one you're showing. I like how this game doesn't hold your hand but with enough reading from the journal entries being made on the talks with NPCs and if you pay enough attention you can figure out what to do. The map is still generous enough to show where your hero is at though. I know a game that doesn't even show that so you have to make an educated guess where you are on the map but it was drawn to scale at least. The reality is in real life maps like the paper kind they wouldn't even be drawn to scale at least from this time period they wouldn't be. But of course maps back then were so important that they were used for warfare and to have an advantage over the enemy if you knew the layout.
Another thing great about the game is you don't need to have the quest in your journal entry to finish some quests. Of course there's also things that only trigger with other NPCs if you talked to other NPCs about it. And another feature is that you don't even have to finish the quest, they might give you 400 ore (like the money in the game) and just run off with it and not complete it. Of course doing this with some quest objectives anger the NPC if you spent a couple of days not bringing what they asked for and attack you when they see you.
One of my favourite youth games...it was such a big change compared to the random d&d, Elder scrolls, diablo, Neverwinternights games that all were somehow the same... in gothic the first time characters with a daily routine and they actually react to you and the stuff you do, same for the animals, map design and and and....one of my alltime favourites! (incl G2 + Notr
it kinda reminds me of arma when you turn off all the map markers so you will stop look at the map and then look around to find the various terrain features and figure out where you are exactly
Another thing to point out, in gothic almost nothing is locked behind quests or acts or level, there are some locations which open with quests, but mostly those are just mechanics you can use even at start of the game, at least if you know what to do or hidden behind strong monsters which can be actually killed even in first act. It is just time consuming and hard, but doable, I was able to clear out all monsters in act one before joining any camp, gaining around lvl 20 or so, get ancient ore armor and uriziel and defeat skeletons, orcs and also black troll without scroll..
You forgot the most important use of the map : it be used to perform the biggest glitch in this game, my jumping, opening the map mid jump, closing it and jumping again you can jump infinitely high to reach inaccessible locations early and become insanely OP.
I like gothics map but in games like gothic i always find that its more immersive when a game lets you write on the map. Old games like ultima underworld let you do this and it really enhances the sense of discovery but it feels like your personally mapping out newly discovered areas. I feel like any good adventurer would probably write down notes and scribbles to help them as they go
Very interesting video. I actually had the opposite experience with Gothic 3: after I began playing I quickly got the map, but I didn't speak to the guy in the tower near the starting village; as a result I had that rather detailed map that Gothic 3 provides you with, but the map never displayed my location. So it felt as a very real map, too
I like to revisit this video from time to time.
I think a good in between would be a gothic style map with the ability for the player to add their own map markers
Including flavor text
Eg: you run into a new dungeon and are underleveled so you go in, ad a marker for dungeon and type "lvl 20; not cleared"
I loved Gothic 1 and 2. I'm from Australia. They were my favorite game series at the time. I introduced my friends to this series as well, but most of them strugged to get into it.
My first experience with Gothis was when I was just a wee little kid, 10 years old or maybe even younger... Gothic helped me learn how to navigate in games in general! Like the points you made, they made a great job with how simple the map system was. And that you actually had to procure one to be able to see where you are in the first place was a simple yet great idea!
I know it may be kinda stupid and pointless, but I just cant help myself and wonder - just how large is the colony in Gothic 1? It's not massive, but if it was a real place, how large would it be? 5 square kilometers, more? I wish someone made a video showing how they arrived with an answer. Like "let's assume that our character runs with the speed of 15 km/h, getting from this place to this place takes 2 minutes, which means that...." etc etc
Anyway, great video!
Gothic’s designers were truly artists. To add up to your points, I think the gamers have changed. When I played gothic the first time I HOPED I wasn’t about to finish the game. I wandered around doing things and enjoying the experience. Most of the videogamers now crave to finish the game, as triple A games are structured like movies. If you push players to finish a game, they will buy another one (perhaps a sequel that comes out next year)
before I watch this video, I already give you a thumbs up for the title of the video, I love the Gothic series and I also think it has the best map system,and i love how the notes explain where to go, they describe the entire location, for example in the north there is a cave on the left side of the mountain hidden behind bushes,they solved it great✌️👍
Great video! If you like a game that feels great to explore with a realistic map you should try Kenshi. It's huge, at times brutally difficult, but fun as fuck. When you start the map seems useless, the areas of the world hard to distinguish, but with time everything just slides into place, you begin to understand everything.
the key to that game is aswell, that it has a small openworld, that is packed with interesting places, so you dont need fast travel. whereever you go, you are fast there and there is a lot of things to explore on the way
ps (in regards to map) gg to all who did gothic 1 chromanin quest without help during their first playthrough that quest was so satisifying
Underrated comment!
To me, there is another aspect: In the game, most of the inhabitants of the colony were either criminals or other rather simple people, so it is no suprise that the map is simple as well. And the orc area? Of course it wouldn't be elaborated in the map because it is so dangerous that nobody ever dared to explore it.
Also most of the places are quite memorable in and of itself. So at some point during the game, the map was just for general direction. I would go around without even looking at the map because it was so easy to navigate.
U could say that later in the game map (empty orc lands part) can be added by friendly orc
My first open world. I never felt so immersed in a game ever again. With the exception of the Mass Effect trilogy and The Witcher 3. I still remember how shocked I was after realizing that I could've reached the final boss by simply walking around lol. If I remember well, it's not locked behind an objective. The only obstacles are the high lvl mobs around the area.
And I still remembered where the mine entrance was.
I played Gothic 1 and 2 for the first time just this year and I really love piranha bytes Games even risen2 but Gothic was an experience I would still recommend in 2050 because its a piece of magic and Piranha Bytes defines for my self what a good RPG can do. Even if the games have major disadvantages compared with triple-A games they give me the feeling that no other game ever gave me and it feels like an emotional flood and not of nostalgia. How could it be I played it for the first time. It's a flood of passion for the good old gaming days, where nothing had to be washed out. And again I am not even old enough to have played any of those games when they were published, but I play them because they are just better. Not in the Gameplay, not in the graphics, not in the Charakters, not in the Open World, not in one single thing. But they somehow still are.
This is a nice video essay about a feature that some of us didn't even think about but even then it added a dose of realism that helped make Gothic one of the most immersive games ever. I never noticed that the bottom part of the map wasn't drawn.
I can't wait to see how the developers of the gothic 1 remake will fuck this feature up, they'll probably create a big 3d out-of-menu map with markers and fast travel that you get at the start of the game.
After a while i knew all map! + Im still re-playing G1 and G2 - awesome games!
Morrowind still is my favourite game but the map... it was brutal! Remember when I was trying to find a cave entrance from quest description for two days. Solved it the easy way by learning how to use developer world building set and find door location by item name I needed in the dungeon. Learned a lot while doing it.
Gothic 1 and 2 are the best games ever made. The real jewel of PC gaming, I have long given up the hope of ever having the chance to play something that good again.
play witcher 3 + addons :)
@@Zireael83 did that like 5 years ago, it's basically a Ubisoft game with exclamation marks, gps navigation and zero game design compared to what Gothic did. I'm close to Poland so that was a reason why I enjoyed Witcher, not because of gameplay.
Gothic was the best game i have ever played. It taught me english. Made it possible to go on adventures to figure out wtf is going on. Taught me about game design, configs all that good stuff. Its seriously one of the best things to happen to me.
I could not agree more! Gothic was THE game I played the most. If I nowadays play an open world game, I make myself often rules like: no teleportation or quest log.
I've tried that technique in the past. Playing more modern games while ignoring some of the modern features. The problem I've always found is that modern games are designed with these features as an essential part of the design, and the whole thing is borderline unplayable without them. If the game expects the player to use a quest log and a waypoint to do quests then they don't need to make them easy to find with just explanation alone. They assume the player will use the waypoint and so without the waypoint the quest becomes almost impossible. Gothic is great because its designed so that you don't need a waypoint. Tasks and locations are described in detail and there are notable landmarks that help you orient yourself. Same thing for fast travel. The map is compact enough that you don't need it. Many games that rely on fast travel are simply too big for this to work.
Would love to hear an Analysis of Terraria, Sunless Sea or Conan Exiles. Loved the video keep it up! :)
Yeah, I do wish more devs would consider making maps as part of a gameplay challenge than what it is now.
I feel like some try but its on a very low level. Like a game that doesn't have exact quest markers but still has perfect labels and fast travel. Nobody is willing to go this far anymore.
@@GamedevAdventures it is usually not worth it for the developers. It is more of an online gaming era and where you got a lot to chose from, so if new players have to chose betwen a skyrim type map and a gothic type map, most of them would go for the easy one. Also this just wouldnt work with big games, still keeping Skyrim as an example. Having to memorize all of that would even drive me nuts and without fast travel it would take forever and chances are it wouldnt even be as satisfying. It would be nice for some smaller-map games to adopt this style tho. If you know any games that do so, Id love to know. Have a great day
@@dawg9400 Yea it definitely only works in smaller games. That is honestly something i could have mentioned in the video that the reason this works is because the world is so compact. I certainly don't expect major publishers to adopt this because its so far against the trends but it would be nice if some indies went for this approach instead of pouring everything into making the world as large as possible.
I missed this game back when it came out as I wasn't able to run it on my PC, so I played whole trilogy it 5 years ago. It's strange that I don't remember it being this rough, especially the graphics.
In modern games the "map" is basically a super smart GPS system, as unfortunate as it might be for many people this is almost mandatory for most because it takes time and is not "friendly" to absolute casual audience, which is where most sales end up in current games. It is great way to improve immersion and exploration, but when i played it couple years ago i really wanted to get better teleportation system, because as i explore majority of content, games can provide, i had to do soooo much backtracking in this one
This is very good analysis
Gothic is a harsh mistress, but the game world was clearly designed to be easily navigable by the player. Rivers and impassable terrain break the world into easier to remember segments. Landmarks can be seen from far away like the tower of the Old Camp. There are literal roads. Hand placed enemies let you know when you're in uncharted territory. You can buy maps. Some NPCs can guide you to specific places.
So many games use procedural generation to make vast featureless expanses, they compensate by making GPS systems. The whole appeal of many of these games is meant to be exploration and path finding is such a tactile and practical way of doing that. Starting out The Colony feels vast and scary. By the end the harsh landscape is full of familiar paths that you discovered yourself and cleared with your own sword. The colony shrinks a little in your head, but it also feels comfortable. Going to the Valley of Mines feels like going home in a way.