Hi Mike... Hope all is well at BR. David here from Project Blofeld. After the DB9 which went to NZ if you recall I bought a Continental GT Speed which was a nice car but couldn't drive it like I did in Blofeld. I even had Larini Sports exhausts fitted and mapped up to 706bhp. Due to the lack of driving experience I traded it in for a Ferrari California which was a better drive but sounded a little 'Shouty' when pushed. In the end I sold that and we bought a 52ft Princess Motor yacht which we have moored here just outside Portsmouth. Once that is gone, probably in 2025, I will be looking to get back in to the AM world and looking at the DB11. The obvious questions are which version, the AMR, V12 or V8. Your video here has pushed me towards the AMR or V12 due to the issues that you mention. I will of course be in touch for the pre-purchase survey.
@@richardcarter1000 Plus, it's a Merc by DNA - not an Aston Martin. If I had to buy a brand new performance car then I wouldn't go for either (being honest). I still think the best option is a quality true Aston - even possibly go to the likes of these guys for a 'full refresh', then you're getting the car you really want.
@@andrewturnbull8955DB11V12 has a 100% Aston Martin engine, twin turbo V12 and it’s a monster. The only merc bits on the V12 are electrical architecture, bits of switchgear and infotainment. Only the V8 engined turbocharged cars use a mercedes engine. The slightly older (naturally aspricated) cars not some sort of thoroughbred. They have Ford/Jag derived engines, Ford switchgear, and mainly Volvo electrical architecture with bits of Jaguar.
@@grahamdaws4775 That's the beauty about opinions, we all have one. I just think about the traffic light syndrome: If I was waiting there and a DB11 V12 came up parallel to me. I'd politely nod and smile (just a I would with any desirable car) but knowing inside that I was in the better car. Obviously, I'm hoping that someone with their old Vanquish or DB4 / 5 / 6 doesn't come alongside me as I'd recognize that similar smile and nod coming from them! LOL. Happy, safe motoring. 👍
As a huge admirer and future prospective owner of the AMG engined cars this video was very interesting but also rather frustrating. To own an older car and be totally at the mercy of the main dealer for all maintenance and servicing work is pretty scary. It will undoubtedly impact on the used values of MB engined cars as people realise that there is no alternative to main dealer rip off pricing.
Hi Mike - what specifically in the Terms and Conditions of the Subscription put you off? I expect they have an 'anti tinkering' clause, or something like that?
It’s anti everything Steve. The okay stuff is like no unskillful use which screws a car. So bringing the brand into disrepute is a fair enough kill. But sneeze out of place, for example, log on in a manner which makes them think you are trying to hack and download the software and bang goes your subscription. A load of woolly stuff like that. But it doesn’t say who’s the judge? What’s an appeal process? Just AML can do and decide x,y,z The customer signs up to agreeing the kit can be evolved (new models) and the existing kit becomes outdated and new kit will need to be bought. Small business can’t tolerate that, small business needs to buy an asset and use it for life or a very long time. Finally to rub salt into wound, another term that the customer would have signed up to will be at termination of subscription, the factory can request the customer to send all hardware back to them, so they can delete any traces of software, documentation and manuals, meaning there’s the chance of having a computer which has cost £50k, only be useful to play solitaire on. A chunk of cash for a standalone system which is bought for life, fair enough. A chunk of cash for a program which can be terminated at a whim and deleted off the machine is too much risk. The terms mean after giving them a chunk of cash for hardware to host the port through to mothership who hosts the software. The subscription is therefore basically a hire purchase agreement. I wouldn’t mind proceeding on a hire purchase subscription agreement, but not if / as well as handing over a chunk of cash for hardware which is totally worthless in reality.
Harsh. Looks like they let the commercial lawyers draughting the contract terms become too aggressive. I wonder if there will be legal pushback (especially in USA). I wonder if this is unique to AM or just part of a global trend - driven by warranty claims from blown pressure charged engines and blown transmissions resulting from irresponsible tuners who massively jack up boost pressure for the insane power gains that can be had with that type of motor. For example the DB11 V12 and V8 both make ~ 700Nm of torque as standard, but use a ZF transmission rated to maximum 700Nm. There’s no room for safe tuning without a tx swap. DBSS uses a much stronger tx rated to 950Nm. Theres loads of decent business for an outfit like BR, let’s hope they find a workaround or a solution.
I’ll stick with my 2014 V8 Vantage N430 manual thanks…if I lived in the midlands I’d definitely bring it to Bamford Rose…fortunately The Aston Workshop are just up the road! Interesting video…even less reason to look at Mercedes era Vantages now…
How much did it work out per week? How many extra cars could work and charge on (adding this fixed cost to their bill). It all adds up, I’m sure you did the sums. I’m sure it will be cheaper in 5 years time! 👍🏻
That’s a good question. An AirCon machine comes with a cost to buy, but the garage can charge out each regas, and eventually the asset would have paid for itself and return a profit. That process is clearly accountable. The diagnostic kit enables jobs. For instance, enables the garage to work on a certain car. Enables services or repairs, but there’s no real direct charge out cost like the AirCon machine has. Therefore it’s difficult to actually account for how long it takes to become neutral on the outlay, like can be done for the AC machine. There’s a 2015 vanquish just left the shop after engine work. Work the franchised network could not do (no engines), therefore that 8 year old product is only back on the road because of the independent world. Wait until DB11 suffer same issues, but there’s no independent world. Your 5 year comment might well come true.
This might just make me not bother to buy an Aston. I personally like the DB11 Volante but the franchise dealer are not going look after it and me for reasonable costs. I'll re investigate the later Vanquish model
They just plug in a computer and hope it tells them something. There's no knowledge or expertise there. I'd rather deal with people like Mike who'll give you reality (whether you like it or not). Those who are looking to buy 'Mercedes' at £70k plus may just start to look at real Astons now. The current management have made a major faux pas on this as they'll not be able to shift the new fleet. Give me a Gen2 DB9, DBS or early Vanquish every time over this new stuff.
Yeah, as I said in the vid, some form of fault code checker and reset tool is obtainable. However, Astons often need rebooting of certain modules with the software that only AMDS has to spring the car back into life. If a garage has a decent reset tool, but a car goes into limp home, which needs rebooting and not simply resetting, the only way out of that situation is for the independent to take the car to a dealer, or to have / buy the amds software.
Yeah, I remember in the early 2000’s, AMDS ‘lite’ was created to cater for exactly what you mention. The lite versions seem to have fallen off the table now, I guess nobody is making a fuss at the mo
Yeah, I saw that. It would be a bit hit and miss to rely on patchy comms for a commercial outcome, from a non dedicated system, especially when the diagnostic tool was needed for something more complex than a clear of fault codes. But fine for a piece of reality TV.
I live in Cyprus and want to bring an Aston from the UK. Import restrictions mean the car must be less than 5 years old when registered in Cyprus, which means only a Mercedes-era model. AM tells me no one can service it. AMOC won't answer me. The UK dealers say what they think you want to hear. Ditto Cyprus independents. Has anyone got any advice other than to steer away from the brand?
Sry to hear that. Looks like once again, the greed of the owners, is gonna hurt another iconic brand... The official dealers are gonna love it too, cuz depreciation will kick in even harder now...
Yeah, a tool meant for another car will surely work at being fault code reset tool. But knowing how Astons die in the shop and need body module, door module, many other module software to reboot into life, there’ll come a day / job when only the top factory tool will do that
my biggest concern with these cars are going to be the reliability of all the mercedes gear. so many use plastic coolant pipes and o'rings for the oil filter housings , water pump, ect go bad. and if aston/ mercedes are gate keeping their software the second hand market for these will not exist. and they will be too expensive to maintain. you would think though anyone buying these newer cars would have the finances to support them too.
I’ve a car inside my workshop right now with an invoice for just that. Read diagnostics and report. £252 inc vat. That activity takes about 3 minutes, less if the computer is already booted up
While AM will try to limit access to DS2, possibly there is a way that a few independent garages can share a licience. Using exclusive software to freeze out competitors is not new and is done all the time in the industrial world. Altho not at the price you quoted. Thats Stroll trying to keep his F1 program afloat. I believe the courts ruled against Apple for similiarly locking out independent computer repair centers. U r right on focussing on the VH cars. Maybe collaborate w other foreign independent shops to build your own network to exchange information and knowledge?
Good ideas License share. That’s something the customer would have signed in blood that he’ll not do. Bang goes subscription if they find out, which they will because of random IP log in addresses Yeah, I often wonder how France, Germany, Spain, Italy cope inside the workshop. The knowledge to keep the Gen 1 cars is truly in the independent world, so wider collaboration a good idea.
Well another Aston business plan that could easily send them into another financial spiral...what an autocratic idiotic thing to do.."killing the goose that lays the golden egg" springs to mind
If maintaining older Merc cars becomes prohibitively expensive, residuals will simply collapse. Personally I much prefer Ian Callum’s designs over Marek Reichman’s.
Another reason to hold onto my V8 Vantage! Man, do I love that car!
As a certain writer might have put it "Every owner is important, but some owners are more important than others !"
I’m sticking with my 2011 Rapide, it’s a beautiful car
Welcome back! Glad to see you're doing videos again.
I hope you find a solution Mike, there’s a few of us turbo owners would like a decent indie option.
Of course it’s possible for us to work on the new era, but not when the kit is bound by so many restrictions
Hi Mike... Hope all is well at BR. David here from Project Blofeld. After the DB9 which went to NZ if you recall I bought a Continental GT Speed which was a nice car but couldn't drive it like I did in Blofeld. I even had Larini Sports exhausts fitted and mapped up to 706bhp. Due to the lack of driving experience I traded it in for a Ferrari California which was a better drive but sounded a little 'Shouty' when pushed. In the end I sold that and we bought a 52ft Princess Motor yacht which we have moored here just outside Portsmouth. Once that is gone, probably in 2025, I will be looking to get back in to the AM world and looking at the DB11. The obvious questions are which version, the AMR, V12 or V8. Your video here has pushed me towards the AMR or V12 due to the issues that you mention. I will of course be in touch for the pre-purchase survey.
Enjoy the yacht! AMR / V12 cracking car and will pack a punch enough to compare with blofeld
I think that the lack of independent support will significantly effect the value of those cars. Isn't it lovely just having a 2013 DB9 or a Vanquish!
I agree. Loved my old Vantage. I wouldn't buy a Merc gen car as the main dealers have your trousers down.
@@richardcarter1000 Plus, it's a Merc by DNA - not an Aston Martin. If I had to buy a brand new performance car then I wouldn't go for either (being honest). I still think the best option is a quality true Aston - even possibly go to the likes of these guys for a 'full refresh', then you're getting the car you really want.
@@andrewturnbull8955DB11V12 has a 100% Aston Martin engine, twin turbo V12 and it’s a monster. The only merc bits on the V12 are electrical architecture, bits of switchgear and infotainment. Only the V8 engined turbocharged cars use a mercedes engine. The slightly older (naturally aspricated) cars not some sort of thoroughbred. They have Ford/Jag derived engines, Ford switchgear, and mainly Volvo electrical architecture with bits of Jaguar.
@@grahamdaws4775 That's the beauty about opinions, we all have one.
I just think about the traffic light syndrome: If I was waiting there and a DB11 V12 came up parallel to me. I'd politely nod and smile (just a I would with any desirable car) but knowing inside that I was in the better car.
Obviously, I'm hoping that someone with their old Vanquish or DB4 / 5 / 6 doesn't come alongside me as I'd recognize that similar smile and nod coming from them! LOL. Happy, safe motoring. 👍
@@andrewturnbull8955What do you have ? and has it been breathed on by the above maestro…?
As a huge admirer and future prospective owner of the AMG engined cars this video was very interesting but also rather frustrating.
To own an older car and be totally at the mercy of the main dealer for all maintenance and servicing work is pretty scary.
It will undoubtedly impact on the used values of MB engined cars as people realise that there is no alternative to main dealer rip off pricing.
Hi Mike - what specifically in the Terms and Conditions of the Subscription put you off? I expect they have an 'anti tinkering' clause, or something like that?
It’s anti everything Steve.
The okay stuff is like no unskillful use which screws a car. So bringing the brand into disrepute is a fair enough kill.
But sneeze out of place, for example, log on in a manner which makes them think you are trying to hack and download the software and bang goes your subscription. A load of woolly stuff like that. But it doesn’t say who’s the judge? What’s an appeal process? Just AML can do and decide x,y,z
The customer signs up to agreeing the kit can be evolved (new models) and the existing kit becomes outdated and new kit will need to be bought. Small business can’t tolerate that, small business needs to buy an asset and use it for life or a very long time.
Finally to rub salt into wound, another term that the customer would have signed up to will be at termination of subscription, the factory can request the customer to send all hardware back to them, so they can delete any traces of software, documentation and manuals, meaning there’s the chance of having a computer which has cost £50k, only be useful to play solitaire on.
A chunk of cash for a standalone system which is bought for life, fair enough. A chunk of cash for a program which can be terminated at a whim and deleted off the machine is too much risk.
The terms mean after giving them a chunk of cash for hardware to host the port through to mothership who hosts the software. The subscription is therefore basically a hire purchase agreement. I wouldn’t mind proceeding on a hire purchase subscription agreement, but not if / as well as handing over a chunk of cash for hardware which is totally worthless in reality.
Harsh. Looks like they let the commercial lawyers draughting the contract terms become too aggressive. I wonder if there will be legal pushback (especially in USA).
I wonder if this is unique to AM or just part of a global trend - driven by warranty claims from blown pressure charged engines and blown transmissions resulting from irresponsible tuners who massively jack up boost pressure for the insane power gains that can be had with that type of motor. For example the DB11 V12 and V8 both make ~ 700Nm of torque as standard, but use a ZF transmission rated to maximum 700Nm. There’s no room for safe tuning without a tx swap. DBSS uses a much stronger tx rated to 950Nm. Theres loads of decent business for an outfit like BR, let’s hope they find a workaround or a solution.
Think I'll be sticking to my db9, keep that healthy hopefully! MD quoted me £825 for oil and filter change 😢 I kid you not !!
The DB11 era cars are fantastic grand tourers. We may need to wait until AM finally decide to sell AMDS2 at a reasonable price.
Lucky for me, I have no lust for AMG era cars. They lost me at “turbo” 😢
Real food for thought 😮
I’ll stick with my 2014 V8 Vantage N430 manual thanks…if I lived in the midlands I’d definitely bring it to Bamford Rose…fortunately The Aston Workshop are just up the road! Interesting video…even less reason to look at Mercedes era Vantages now…
Aston workshop will no doubt keep your Vantage in fine fettle
I think AM have made a big mistake. But hopefully it will make the value of my Vantage S not go down 😊
When I had my 996 turbo, a DB9 owner said to me, If you think Porsche servicing is expensive, buy an Aston Martin.
Aston's of this era ... are a lot of badge, big bills and little else ....
.... apart from Ford and Volvo parts!
How much did it work out per week? How many extra cars could work and charge on (adding this fixed cost to their bill). It all adds up, I’m sure you did the sums. I’m sure it will be cheaper in 5 years time! 👍🏻
That’s a good question.
An AirCon machine comes with a cost to buy, but the garage can charge out each regas, and eventually the asset would have paid for itself and return a profit. That process is clearly accountable.
The diagnostic kit enables jobs. For instance, enables the garage to work on a certain car. Enables services or repairs, but there’s no real direct charge out cost like the AirCon machine has.
Therefore it’s difficult to actually account for how long it takes to become neutral on the outlay, like can be done for the AC machine.
There’s a 2015 vanquish just left the shop after engine work. Work the franchised network could not do (no engines), therefore that 8 year old product is only back on the road because of the independent world.
Wait until DB11 suffer same issues, but there’s no independent world. Your 5 year comment might well come true.
This might just make me not bother to buy an Aston. I personally like the DB11 Volante but the franchise dealer are not going look after it and me for reasonable costs. I'll re investigate the later Vanquish model
They just plug in a computer and hope it tells them something. There's no knowledge or expertise there. I'd rather deal with people like Mike who'll give you reality (whether you like it or not).
Those who are looking to buy 'Mercedes' at £70k plus may just start to look at real Astons now. The current management have made a major faux pas on this as they'll not be able to shift the new fleet. Give me a Gen2 DB9, DBS or early Vanquish every time over this new stuff.
As its a Merc underneath can they not use Merc diagnostics? Bet that's not 54k
Yeah, as I said in the vid, some form of fault code checker and reset tool is obtainable.
However, Astons often need rebooting of certain modules with the software that only AMDS has to spring the car back into life.
If a garage has a decent reset tool, but a car goes into limp home, which needs rebooting and not simply resetting, the only way out of that situation is for the independent to take the car to a dealer, or to have / buy the amds software.
So, I assume that you would be happy to take on a 2017 Rapide S then?
Or does that still use AMDS 2?
My favourite car uses my favourite diagnostic system 😊 yes, Rapide all good
@@BamfordRose - Phew! I can breathe easy again!!
I wonder if that is the problem here in the states as we have pretty strong “right to repair” rules that support handy owners and independent shops.
Yeah, I remember in the early 2000’s, AMDS ‘lite’ was created to cater for exactly what you mention. The lite versions seem to have fallen off the table now, I guess nobody is making a fuss at the mo
Interestingly, one of the TH-cam salvage rebuilders discovered the new Vantage responded to the options for one of the big Mercs…
Yeah, I saw that. It would be a bit hit and miss to rely on patchy comms for a commercial outcome, from a non dedicated system, especially when the diagnostic tool was needed for something more complex than a clear of fault codes. But fine for a piece of reality TV.
@@BamfordRose And just because it communicates doesn’t mean it’s communicating the correct data 😳
Why is the Service interval with Aston 12 months yet the same engine in a MB is 24months ?
I live in Cyprus and want to bring an Aston from the UK. Import restrictions mean the car must be less than 5 years old when registered in Cyprus, which means only a Mercedes-era model. AM tells me no one can service it. AMOC won't answer me. The UK dealers say what they think you want to hear. Ditto Cyprus independents. Has anyone got any advice other than to steer away from the brand?
Sry to hear that. Looks like once again, the greed of the owners, is gonna hurt another iconic brand... The official dealers are gonna love it too, cuz depreciation will kick in even harder now...
So can't you buy merc only system as most off the modules are mercedes I do this with porsche vagcom
Yeah, a tool meant for another car will surely work at being fault code reset tool.
But knowing how Astons die in the shop and need body module, door module, many other module software to reboot into life, there’ll come a day / job when only the top factory tool will do that
my biggest concern with these cars are going to be the reliability of all the mercedes gear. so many use plastic coolant pipes and o'rings for the oil filter housings , water pump, ect go bad. and if aston/ mercedes are gate keeping their software the second hand market for these will not exist. and they will be too expensive to maintain.
you would think though anyone buying these newer cars would have the finances to support them too.
So how much would the Factory charge just to plug someone’s car into the computer? 🤯
Knowing MD...a lot £££'s
I’ve a car inside my workshop right now with an invoice for just that.
Read diagnostics and report. £252 inc vat.
That activity takes about 3 minutes, less if the computer is already booted up
Is this an invoice from BR or MD?
@@HeavyDragoonfranchised
Appalling how expensive the diagnostics system is. #RightToRepair.
How I know everybody scanning Aston with MB engine like AMG C63 S model and it do everything great.
While AM will try to limit access to DS2, possibly there is a way that a few independent garages can share a licience.
Using exclusive software to freeze out competitors is not new and is done all the time in the industrial world. Altho not at the price you quoted. Thats Stroll trying to keep his F1 program afloat.
I believe the courts ruled against Apple for similiarly locking out independent computer repair centers.
U r right on focussing on the VH cars. Maybe collaborate w other foreign independent shops to build your own network to exchange information and knowledge?
Good ideas
License share. That’s something the customer would have signed in blood that he’ll not do. Bang goes subscription if they find out, which they will because of random IP log in addresses
Yeah, I often wonder how France, Germany, Spain, Italy cope inside the workshop. The knowledge to keep the Gen 1 cars is truly in the independent world, so wider collaboration a good idea.
First view!
Thanks! We are back! Thanks for your support ! Hope you enjoyed !
Well another Aston business plan that could easily send them into another financial spiral...what an autocratic idiotic thing to do.."killing the goose that lays the golden egg" springs to mind
If maintaining older Merc cars becomes prohibitively expensive, residuals will simply collapse. Personally I much prefer Ian Callum’s designs over Marek Reichman’s.
£54k for a laptop + subscription? That is completely unjustifiable. How is that not regulated as being completely anti competitive? 😡
When we hear Aston are looking for a new buyer we'll know that the penny has dropped.
Think what us poor sods out in the colonies are going to do...
😂 carbs, points, throttle cable cars ?
@@BamfordRose That would be a way around Mercedes Era car servicing, alas illegal in the entire USA 😒
I won't be getting a Merc!
I'm likely to get some flack for this, but IMO the Mercedes era cars just look awful. They have no aplomb; they look generic and dull.
With you. Prior era cars retain their class. For me the merc era cars look plastic.