Good Gone Bad: The Rise of the Anti-Hero
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
- Recently Keith published an article called When the Villain becomes the Hero: Why Modern Movies Lie about Sin at ClearTruthMedia.com
In this video, he expands on the article, discussing the subject further and responding to some of the comments he has received.
Read the article here:
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I once heard a quote that said “A sinner wants to justify sin, but God wants to justify the sinner”
Love this 🙏
In the words of Alfred from The Dark Knight: "Some men just want to watch the world burn."
To quote Gavin Ortlund who may have been quoting someone else, "Entertainment is catechesis." If we train ourselves to root for and enjoy evil on the screen, we will root for and enjoy evil in our own lives.
Not only do I agree, I've argued this for a decade. Why does every Disney bad girl need an origin story that makes us "sympathetic"? Because women, especially, have to be excused because of "power dynamics."
Alfred in The Dark Knight triology talking about the Joker: "They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."
I agree wholenheartedly. We are brazenly as a society depicting evil as good and good as evil. But there, some people, regardless of their environment, are just plain heartless without prior trauma. Christians must get their anthropology from Scripture, not modern sciences.
I thought your distinction between “reasons” and “excuses” in a character’s backstory was very helpful. Thanks for posting this
For me, I think part of the reason why we are seeing more sympathetic villains and anti-heroes is due to it being the current tread. A lot of film noir had us follow the villain or showed us a genuine reason why the villain did what they did. It's all just a cycle. There is nothing new under the sun.
I think in part it’s because humans are complex and there are very few true villains out there. Most bad people have good moments, or traits.
A straightforward character is a boring character, that’s why Superman is most interesting when he’s the underdog either with Lois or against a more super type of enemy.
I think we are not to root for the bad guys in a film, as an example I love Thanos in the marvel universe because he has a genuine reason for his beliefs, however I do not root for him and I root against him. I love the writing and having a genuinely understandable yet wrong motive, however he’s still obviously evil and we should root against him.
I’m fine with both bad people made worse by their own actions and being influenced by the sinners around them, and I’m also fine with an evil person just being evil in a film, however we must find a good balance of appreciation of their writing and how good of a villain they are in terms of how well they are written, and rooting against them as we don’t glorify sin.
You are right. We excuse evil because we are evil. Simple.
You almost did a Mark Dice at the end:
“It’s not like they’d try to make the Devil into a hero, right? HAHAHA-oh wait! What’s this?”
I’m a huge James Spader fan. The Blacklist is one of my all time favorite drama series. James played Raymond Reddington, a career master criminal. I’ve never cheered more for the bad guy. You’re spot on.
I had sympathy for Thanos in the MCU
It’s easy to fall into the trap
Roussaeu taught them well. There are no bad people. Society forces all these good people into doing things that anyone would do in the same circumstance. This is why we have no cash bail laws , legal theft in Ca. , and movies to teach us this "truth"
I would say you've hit the nail right on the head. Man doesn't want justice for our sin, so we justify it. It makes sense that this would be reflected in our art as well. Nice work!
I agree . I grew up on Superman , the Lone Ranger , Roy Rogers, Flash Gordon , Tarzan ( Ron Ely was the best ) John Wayne, Thunderbirds, Fireball XL-5 , Supercar , Stingray , Star Trek , Lost in Space and old Saturday morning cartoons. Not to mention the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo astronauts.
Our heroes were heroes then . The real ones were pilots, war veterans and pioneers . Even our fantasy heroes showed , courage , integrity and determination. You aspired to be that kind of person.
The villains either met a bad end or lived to try again and still be defeated the next time .
The fun ones like Jack Lemmon’s Professor Fate, or Wile E Coyote had us in stitches. They didn’t know when to give up.
Today’s anti heroes and even the so-called heroes leave a lot to be desired.
I don’t mind heroes having a few flaws, the heroes in scripture were anything but perfect. But even with those flaws you still saw people that did their best .
The worst part is when kids are thought this things. This generation is completely different from mine. Growing up with such different set of values that is frightening to look at our future. But God has promised that he will keep a people for Him in the mist of this generation. Glory be to God for those who will not bow to the spirit of the age.
Pastor Keith, this is a topic I have thought about a lot. Growing up in the ‘70s (born in ‘62) the rise of the anti-hero was prevalent at that time, reflecting the cultural and societal changes going on. One trend was the vigilante movie, reflecting the helplessness people had about their circumstances. You had cops within the system who were rebels (Bullitt, Popeye Doyle, Harry Callahan, Buford Pusser) who tried to bring order to systemic chaos, and who were often dim lights in the complete darkness of the forces they represented. Death Wish’ s Paul Kersey is what happens in complete societal impotence against evil.
The anti-hero was also represented in Cool Hand Luke and One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest as sacrificial martyrs within the corrupt worlds they were sentenced into, microcosms of the fallen world. The biblical imagery in both films is deliberate. I could talk for hours about this subject (and have over the years).
Two things I would point out: In the films of the ‘70s, they were very conscious of the archetypes they were creating from. John Wayne was still making movies, the artists were seeped in the old stories, and a lot of traditional good guy v. bad guy were still shown on weekly episodic TV, so the contrast was seen everyday. Also, the filmmakers were deliberately using genre conventions to comment on the post-war degeneracy that surrounded them. Whether they knew it or not, the films were a comment on the changing moral and ethical codes going on. There was a deep melancholy to the best of the movies that reflected the passing of the earlier era.
Second, the massive phenomenon of Star Wars in ‘77 was an audience celebration of clear boundaries between good and evil, with deliberate heroes drawn from universal historic mythical types. Not a full rejection of the storytelling of the previous decade, but an exhaustion of the hopelessness many films had begun to present. I think your ‘80s generation was fed on media born of Star Wars success. The de-evolution from the mid-80s is another long post I won’t torture you with. Many blessings
I loved the movie "The Italian Job", but then I realized they manipulated me into making a bunch of criminals my heroes....that epiphany sucked the joy out of it. The anti-hero is real, and a powerful but subtle tool of evil.
Dead on. I remember the point in "Infinity War" when I suddenly thought "they hate God! They're making the power of God to be the evil in the world!" It ruined the movie for me, for all the right reasons.
This morning I'm scrolling youtube, my 4 year old daughter sees Kieth in a thumbnail and says "that guy's funny!" 😅
I think you’re spot on. In my lifetime I see this trend starting with the Clint Eastwood “spaghetti westerns”.
What you’re describing here is more of an anti-villain and not an antihero. an antihero is a hero who has some villainous qualities think of a character like Jesse James, who fought alongside the CSA during the Civil War and after the war, when a lot of northern businessman were refusing loans to the family terrorizing the community and all that stuff, he decided to go out and rob those people and back to the poor. An anti-villain on the other hand would be someone like Thanos, who just is a sympathetic villain, because the idea of ending rolled hunger ain’t bad all in itself, but the way he does it makes him a villain.
I think your 100% right. Movies like the Disney movie about Cruella Devil exemplify this. Our culture is becoming more and more okay with showing its love for evil.
You make a lot of good points, and you don't just see this in movies and tv shows, but also increasingly in contemporary fiction literature. Unfortunately the younger generations especially want to see the lines between good and evil blurred more and more. At times it can be difficult to discern this when it's so prevalent in the culture. I'm glad you've pointed this out. It will help me be more watchful in my own writing and I'll certainly be more careful about what feedback I incorporate into my stories. Thank you, brother!
I feel like this trend started with the Broadway musical, Wicked. Which pretty much took one of the most iconic cinematic villains and turned them into a 'hero'. It's fine for one story or two, but now everyone from the Joker, the Grinch, and Cruella Deville has been giving the Wicked treatment. Can't wait to see the reboot of It's a Wonderful Life where Mr. Potter was abused by his religious dad and Geroge Bailey is an ableist bigot jk.
Great video, good sir
So part of my spiritual growth was watching “The Astronaut Wives Club” where it showed the 1960s Space Program from the Wives’ perspective. They were cheated on, embarrassed publically, and forced to pretend everything was perfect. This was hard to accept as these men were childhood heroes of mine. What happened to “The Right Stuff”? And then I rewatched that movie. Clearly there was a lot I didn’t pick up on at 8 that horrified me at 28…to put it mildly. I came to the conclusion that there is only one true hero in this life, a certain Jewish preacher in the first century.
You're right on. In the late 1960s, when William Goldman wrote the script for _Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid,_ his goal was to see if he could get the audience to root for villains. He succeeded, in spades. (It helped that Paul Newman and Robert Redford played the lead characters.) It seems ever since, Hollywood has turned this flirtation into a full-time gig. And I'm getting increasingly more tired of it.
I suppose this is why I rewatch old episodes of Columbo, where bad guys always lose.
You can’t beat Columbo! My favorite mystery show growing up. Uncanny how much a young RC Sproul looked like him. He knew it and laughed about it.
Your observations are spot on. I thought Walter White was awesome. I watched every episode of Braking Bad and Dexter before becoming a Christian. I can't watch TV since becoming a Christian because all the shows I enjoyed glorified Sin.
Thoroughly agree with your conclusion that we shouldn’t portray evil as a good thing. No origin story justifies an evil act. It is the reason I stopped watching breaking bad and la casa de papel/money heist. Even though both otherwise have excellent production and story telling.
Just a footnote that the anti-hero isn’t something new. According to Wikipedia, the term was already used in 1714. They list several examples from literature. And in film, 1964 a fistful of dollars features an anti-hero.
I'm a Christian and a writer, as well as a man who loves many kinds of stories, so I have a particular view on this sort of thing.
Yes, there definitely has been an upsurge of sympathetic villains, or heroes who are just villain who go after other villains, or what have you. On the one hand, I'm not against the idea of a villain being complex, or even having a sympathetic motive, because that increases the odds of the character being well-written. That said, if a story justifies the villain as actually the hero, then clearly something is amiss with the story's morality.
Consider the movie MASTER OF THE WORLD, starring Vincent Price and Charles Bronson. It's a loose adaptation of two Jules Verne novels in which a man named Ropur (Price) uses an airship to attack military forces the world over without provocation. His reason? He wants a world without war, and he's decided the only way to make it happen is for him to become the only military power (yes, just like in that other Jules Verne story you're thinking about). He is portrayed as sympathetic and well-intentioned...but he is also portrayed as wrong. A Bronson's character pouts it best when he says that he agrees with Ropur's ideals, but not his methods, hence why he must be stopped. Ropur is tragic because he wanted to be a hero, but he is ultimately nothing more than a terrorist.
That, I would say, makes him a compelling villain. Even if you get where he's coming from and you want to believe he's on the right track, it's ultimately impossible to justify what he's doing.
For my own part, I write a lot in the way of fiction. My heroes can be somewhat morally gray if occasion calls for it, but my villains are never idealized. Their goals sound good until you really think about them; the alliances they make only exist until one side betrays the other; if they are proven wrong, they dig in their heels because they can't accept defeat. While I'm not trying to spread any particular message by doing this, the overarching theme is (hopefully) clear: heroes might have flaws, but villains have no virtues.
I don't write Christian fiction specifically, mind you, but my faith does make its way into my books in one form or another. Even my recent Space Opera depicts an alien who is deeply faithful. I suppose a part of that stems from a desire to counteract the mainstream depiction of "all Christians are bigoted hypocrites", but it's also just the perspective that makes the most sense to me.
If you ever wanted to have a guest on to talk about it, feel free to contact me. I think there's a lot to discuss.
Yes I agree. Clint Eastwood character Will Muney is just that kind of person as is Kevin Costner character John Dutton in Yellowstone
One thing that makes this interesting is where does one draw the line between an anti-hero and a hero? I mean, clearly you have, say, Deku Midoriya and Optimus Prime on one end and on the other, original trilogy Kratos and Edmund Blackadder, but what about the middle? Especially characters that are/were bad people trying to do better--Arthur Morgan/John Marston, newer Kratos, and I think Omni-Man (I don't watch "Invincible" so I don't know for certain)
Personally, I think these things go in cycles--back in the 60's and 70's we had protagonists like Michael Corleone (ruthless mobster) and Dirty Harry Callahan (an abrasive but heroic cop), then Star Wars made heroes successful again, then things got dark again (see: The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen).
I think it at the very least started as a somewhat reflective "you might call him a monster, but you are more alike than different", for lack of a more simple phrase. We're far past the days of genuine and earnest motivations behind this trend though.
I was also noticing this back in the day with "Smallville", when they were trying to Make Lex Luther into a less objectional character for much of the series. Thankfully that didn't last forever.
If there is a defense for the anti-hero story, it is that they can prove to be cautionary tales. If a villain is evil just because they are evil, then we all condemn the villain, because we think we are good. But if we give a plausible back story as to how a person became twisted, then it can be a cautionary tale for us so that we don't use the ways we've been wronged or harmed in our lives as justifications for evil.
I think the anti-hero story has appeal because we all really do recognize that we are sinners and that we want to see the anti-hero redeemed. At least for the first few seasons of Breaking Bad (spoilers if you haven't watched it), I think most viewers would have wanted Walt to walk away from the drug business and would have been happy if he had. We are willing to forgive if people will repent. When nearer the end of the series when it is clear Walt is past the point of return and his ego and power lust had ruined everything, I don't think many were sad to see Walt get his just desserts in the end. There was some relief to see Jesse be able to escape the life, since it seems he could still be redeemed.
I do agree though that the anti-hero story can be taken the wrong way. Scarface or Goodfellas might be examples of people really lauding the antics of despicable criminals and not getting the point of the story.
I LOOOOOOVVVEE how you end with the sound effect from Screen Rant’s “pitch meeting”!!
Agreed. I would also add that they are also making bad guys “misunderstood.” It’s a really disgusting twist. It was really evident with the Mysterio & Spider-Man movie that came out a while back. It’s exactly muddying the waters. Backstory is good to develop a character arc, but now they’re justifications for “misunderstood” bad guys.
To put it in the words of my dad “why can’t we just some good men in movies”
It all began with John Milton by making Satan sympathetic he created the tragic villain or fallen hero
I also noticed this problem with some of the players I have been around when I hosted Pathfinder (a pin and paper Roleplaying game). It was almost a copy paste character story of X being treated badly and therefore they get away with doing Y even though I explicitly was setting the story up for us to be good guys. "bUt I'm An AnTi-HeRo". An exceptional few players actually would follow my instructions and make heroic characters.
I actually have noticed that myself lately. An example of this is Star Wars. It use to be the empire was bad and rebels good. But now it's turned into characters that are bad but there's a good reason. Of course no one does good according to Romans 3, but it does seem like in movies now there isn't just a black and white, good guy vs bad guys anymore.
The purpose of talking about an evil persons traumatic past is to stop it from happening again by calling out the other evil people who create these monsters
I think you provided your own counter-argument. “Evil people” are not some other group over there. We are all evil.
When I see a straight up “bad guy” I think, “Wow. That’s a bad guy.”
When I see an ordinary, sympathetic, relatable, and likable person doing evil things and trying to justify them, I think, “Wow. They’re not so different from me, but they’re doing despicable things. I’m probably closer to being a villain than I realize. I’ve probably done some terrible things and tried to excuse myself for it. I better be on guard against this sort of thing in the future.”
There’s a difference between hero’s and villains and protagonists and antagonists and there’s a starman waiting in the sky
So far, this makes me think of “Bible John” who was never caught
I like your thoughts in this video. I’m kind of wondering if they would try to give a religious villain (such as a corrupt bishop or something) a compelling reason behind his actions, like they do all the antagonists you’ve mentioned, or would they leave it at “He’s just a bad guy.”
Slick background, brother! Loved the article and I loved watching the video commentary, as well. Wholeheartedly agree with every word. Blessings!
Great article, and I appreciate your dialogue in referencing the culture and the Good, bad, and ugly (see what i did there :) I agree back in earlier movies and comic books there was a clear distincition that good was moral and bad was wicked and their were consequences for the evil that was perpetrated. Our culture has truly been given over to a debased mind, (Romans 1). Thank you for posting.
I don't think the division between the dangers of the old 'dialectic' stories and the modern anti hero is quite so sharp. Both can encourage self justification, the former in our identifying with the 'natural goodness' of the hero vs. the antagonist who, for some unfathomable reason, just wants to do things that we, of course, would never wish to do, and the latter in our empathy with the protagonist.
What's needed more of in my mind is what I would call 'aspirational realism'; stories centered around groups of imperfect people who usually but not always navigate the painful realities that their setting presents them with while showing just a little bit more collective grace and character than we tend to see in reality, serving as an example to strive for.
The Rocky series is probably the best example in American culture of what I'm talking about - as well as an example of flawed antagonists whose flaws are also simply human, without being villianous. Another example of a different sort would be a Canadian SWAT drama called 'Flashpoint', which I would recommend if you haven't seen it. Compare the collective 'common grace' of that show's cast to the more realistic character shown in say 'The Wire'.
1000% correct Keith, we dont like our sin, so we portray it in (so called) heroes to justify it to ourselves. The heart of man is wicked & deceitful....
May God bless you & your family always!
You’re right on the money Keith, we need to get back to heroes like Christopher Reeve’s Superman. Truth, Justice, and the American way!
I don’t think making a villain sympathetic or making a hero have significant moral flaws is an attempt to lessen the impact of sin. Real people are mixed bags. Mother Teresa had her vices and the most evil autocratic dictator in recent history really loved his dog, Blondi.
Portraying characters in movies this way doesn’t have to mean “sin isn’t a big deal.” Instead it can function as a warning that none of us are immune to temptation and sin.
Technically, a bad guy isn’t an antihero, an antihero is someone like Wolverine, Punisher, even Deadpool. They do the right thing even if their methods aren’t as correct as they should be. In real life we have people like Gary Brauche, the gentleman who ended his son’s abuser in an airport in 1984, or Jake McNasty McNeice, a world war 2 paratrooper who saved a lot of American lives by defying orders constantly and disrupting the enemy or volunteering for the most dangerous missions to save allies surrounded in the battle of the bulge. There are countless true antiheroes that did the right thing in not always good methods, one thing they all had in common was that they all made their peace with god as they got older, and became better men. The first three characters described in this video are men who continually made bad choices and made those closest to them suffer for their choices, that is a bad guy, not an antihero.
I think you are right, and i would like to add, i think a lot of it stems from a flippancy towards sin. Another show that i think portrays this flippancy of sin is American Idol, the fact that we name a show that is basically telling us to do idol worship i think illustrates what is behind your point. It reminds me of the song "Stricken, Smitten, and Afflicted" where there is a line in it that goes, "ye who think of sin but lightly, nor suppose the evil great, here can view its nature rightly, here its guilt can estimate." The here it is talking about is the cross, and our sin cost a lot, and we cannot be flippant about it.
I could never watch American Idol because I found the name so offensive.
You’re spot on correct!
I don't watch a whole lot of TV so I can't really give an opinion based on my own experience. I did observe back in the 90s that a lot of cartoons seem to portray witchcraft in a positive way, and I always threw a fit when my sisters wanted to watch such shows. There have been times in history where things like this happened in real life; John Brown was a hero in the eyes of many abolitionists because it seemed like he was standing up against slavery even though he was using brutal violence to do so. Imagine a movie about him in the 21st Century.
I've been thinking about this as a writer. In a story I plan to write, there are two villains. One is manipulative and teaches the other how to be manipulative. However, this first villain has a tragic backstory which is established after showing the depth her emotional and mental instability. You should not want her to stay as she is but have healing which her plans will not bring. The other is a brute who simply chose one day to be evil. He is capable of gentleness, and he flaunts this at times, but he is a monster who's only getting more dangerous. They won't be the only villains, but they're the big two. I think this shows evil as self-centered and self-destructive, which it is.
We see your theory is right, in 'The Godfather.' Michael is the protagonist who gunned down those involved in the shooting of his father and orchestrated the death of many who opposed him, even his own brother in law and brother. This movie came out in 1970.
Michael was the clear villain in Part II, though. By the time he's sitting by the lake with that cold, deadeyed expression on his face, it's clear that this is not a guy who had done anything commendable or heroic.
@@jumpupdown2556 saddest words in the first movie are “That’s my family Kay, not me.” His decision ultimately cost him his wife to divorce him, and the life of his daughter. This movie reminds me of the words in Proverbs 14:12 “There’s a way that seems right to a man , but its end is the way to death.”
Yeah but he also is shown as becoming evil and eventually is left alone and broken down in the end .Michael is a sympathetic villain not a noble one
I used to wonder about this decades ago when everyone justified playing the video game Grand Theft Auto. I remember asking my nephew, so you’re trying to steal the cars? I thought, so now kids want to be the thieves not the cops? This is teaching doing evil can be fun. I wouldn’t allow my son to play garbage like that. I agree with your point, this trend justifies our sinfulness if not flat out glorifies it.
I tried watching breaking bad, and I did notice that the "bad guy(s)" for the episode were worse than the main character. In other words, they make the anti-hero not look so bad because the characters he's fighting against are worse than he is. It's the same plot with Dexter, he's a serial killer, but it's okay because the people he is killing are worse. That's another way to get the audience to sympathize, the old "but I'm not as bad as he is".
Spoilers for breaking bad.
I agree to an extent with Pastor Keith’s premise, but would disagree that Breaking Bad is an example. Breaking Bad may start this way, but by the end it’s clear Walter White isn’t, and never was, the “good guy” of the show. He (Walter White) even admits that his crimes were never about his cancer or family, it was because he enjoyed it and was good at it. By the end of the show, he has nothing and his family hates him. And it’s his fault. I think this is where the character archetype can be a very good storytelling device. Another good example of it would be Godfather and Godfather part 2.
And to be clear, you’re not always supposed to root for the main character. The main character of a story can be a villain, just like in these two examples. Or for the sake of example (an extreme one), a story following the life of Hitler. It’s like watching American Psycho and thinking Patrick Bateman was a good guy.
So many potential comments...
Calling evil good and good evil has been popular for quite a long time. The prophets had to deal with it in the Old Testament era.
In addition, if we are able to excuse our sins, then who do you think you are to judge me by calling me a sinner? It doesn't matter if you are just warning me about what God says. You, the "judgmental" person becomes The sinner - the one who all us villains should attack!
Zero Dark Thirty.
It’s a good movie overall, but Jason Clarke’s CIA operative character spurred some conversations between me and my wife.
I don't like watching movies or shows that make me want to root for someone doing something wrong. It doesn't sit right with me. Movies, like Ocean's Eleven or The Italian Job, I would normally enjoy because of the action or drama make me feel ill at ease.
Excellent points Kieth
1 word.
Spot on....😂
Have you ever seen Hazbin Hotel?
Terrible and dreadful
Meanwhile look at some of the absolute goats like lord of the rings or the lion the witch and the wardrobe. The heroes were legit heroes and the villains were just straight up evil.
Yes, . . . and Amen.
I haven’t seen any of these shows. I hate shows that make me route for the bad guy so thanks for letting me know.
If only Illuvatar hadn't let Morgoth corrupt Sauron. Really Illuvatar is the villain.
-Humanity probably if the Rings of Power keeps going
You are very right
Darth Vader - He's a very bad guy. Yet he becomes the Savior figure in Return of the Jedi. I think this is probably when more popular embrace of the anti-hero was adopted - as it made $$$ for Star Wars.
It's not spiritual significant. The film industry is about $$$ not God or Satan. Essentially Satan, because of their love of $$. As they say in News, if it bleeds it leads. The same is true of films. Money make the world go round, according to them. It's nothing deeper than that. The share holders are "god". Films reflect Culture, not the other way around. Faith us upstream from Culture, Film is downstream from Culture. The Culture has rejected faith. We live in a post Christian culture.
Don't forgot the Fat Pharasee as a bad teacher who teaches Calvinism
If you change the definition of victim, you change the definition of villain. If you change the definition of villain, you change the definition of hero. Keep at it long enough and you will eventually manipulate the world in such a manner in which no matter what you do, you are never wrong. Of course, if you suppress the truth in unrighteousness long enough, God will eventually give you over to a depraved mind in which no matter what you do, you actually believe you're right.
I wonder what your opinion is on Falling Down. That movie seems more relevant than ever.
I've been long fascinated by fictional villains mainly due to their over-the-top-personalities rather than a desire to emulate their deeds. As a Christian, I've wondered how I can reconcile my Christian faith with liking fictional villains, but as I'm seeing our culture increasingly glorify sin, it becomes clear to me. A lot of these classic villains aren't glorified for their evil and their evil is recognized as evil, but as you point out, it's becoming more and more the opposite as shades of gray are painted. We see this in Maleficent movie, as the Mistress of all evil who commanded "all the powers of Hell" in the classic Disney movie Sleeping Beauty, is given a backstory for how she turned evil, and then she effectively becomes the film's protagonist. I hated the ending because it essentially nullifies her evil. It turns her from evil to "misunderstood" and "sympathetic". That being said, I did like how a lot of the characters in the show Once Upon a Time were portrayed, and thought the character of the Evil Queen had a compelling redemption arc and I even found some Christian symbolism in that show. However, I thought it was strangely refreshing when they introduced Cruella De Vil in season 4, and despite giving her a backstory too, they just decided to make her evil for evil's sake rather than allowing us to sympathize with her. Even a lot of the newer Disney villains, like Prince Hans from Frozen, it's kind of left ambiguous and their villainy is softened. Meanwhile, characters like Cruella, Scar, Jafar etc. you knew they were the villains from the moment they first appeared on screen. I do think modern portrayals of fictional villains and "anti-heroes" speaks to our culture's desire to suppress and sanitize the nature of our own depravity.
Are screenwriters excusing or glorifying evil, or are they providing character depth that illuminates how antiheroes arrive at the end evil they are guilty of in the film/show?
I think you're missing a ton of nuance here. Yes there are stories that do portray evil as good and that's a problem but an immortal protagonist doesn't mean that the story is promoting evil.
In Sopranos we're not supposed to root for Tony. And Breaking Bad is about Walter falling into evil and the pain and misery it causes him and those around him.
That is true
Growing up in a Baptist church I heard quite a few testimonies from "Christians" who blamed their back sliding on "falling in with the wrong crowd". I know you'll disagree with me, but we all have been given free moral agency, just like God's heavenly host. It's part of being made in the "image of God". The trouble is we have chosen to use that free agency to disobey God. God knew it would happen, but still He gave us a free will. We can blame no one but ourselves, when it seems that God is far from us.
Zero arguments with your assessment, but it goes much further/deeper.
What I hate more than "Making the Villain a Hero" (calling evil, good) is when they make someone who was the Hero into a Villain. In Short, calling good, evil!
Although it is Certainly Biblical to say "there are no Heroes, everyone is Evil" because, there is none that is good, no, not one, for all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, we are all Evil! and that is why we need Jesus Christ, who Atoned for our Sin, our Evil, our Wickedness, with His blood upon the Cross! they go too far!
For it is Just Churlish, Childish (and the Apostle Paul warned us to put Childishness away!) and "edgelord" to Destroy a Hero and turn them into a Villain, such as the "Evil superman" of "Injustice"... as if they are trying to say "your stupid and childish if you have heroes! there are no heroes! so we are going to Destroy your Hero to show you that having heroes is Pathetic and Babyish and you need to grow up and see that the only things that are real are Sex, Violence, Darkness and Hatred!" , which really does seem to be the Mindset of your typical Hellywood Scribe these Days, and, I am ashamed to admit, one I had myself (fortunately, Sex was never even on my Radar, but, Tragically, I was Consumed by Hatred, Violence and Darkness :( ) once as a Lost, Suicidal, Dangerously Depressed and Broken young Man when I was at my worst, and it is only the Grace of God that got me through that to remain Alive for the Day when, in His love and Mercy, in February 2021 many years on from there, He called me to the Crucified, Risen, Living, Eternal Messiah, My Lord, My only Savior, My Shephard, and my God, the Son of God, God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. In short, it Reveals just how desperately lost and in need of the Lord they are as well.
it is also why I still struggle with movies and sometimes wonder if its a Sin to Watch them at all! (I do not hide that I am prone to attacks of Legalism) , while other times I view it as Ok if Extreme Caution is used... I need help on that one.. (Please note that there is not *one* Biblical church in my area, and the only Biblical Church to so far offer me Fellowship is 121 Miles away and I cannot afford to move... so I am without a Church and without a Pastor... so I cannot "ask my pastor" for help sadly, so I need to ask online!)
God's Blessings, Love and Peace on You and Yours Pastor.
(PS: do not get me Started on Mission: Impossible 1996 and that Films utter insult to the whole Fanbase in turning the Hero (Phelps) into the Villain, or the Rant will take all Year!)
I really like a lot of what you're saying. Breaking Bad is the one I know best of these, so I can't speak for the other stories. I don't think that the intention of the show is to necessarily make Walter look sympathetic. At least not primarily. Of course bad guys have reasons for doing the evil they do. For Walt it's due to poor rationalization given his circumstances. The show isn't really about him becoming evil and the villain over time but is instead about a wicked man being provided the occasion to let the mask fall. It's a story about revelation of his wickedness rather than his conversion to it. He has had socially acceptable sins bubbling under the surface for years that have left him feeling like an emasculated victim of the world. Foremost among these are pride and bitterness. In an attempt to recapture his masculinity he indulges his flesh and an evil man who is very weak pretends to be very strong to the detriment of everyone around him. Do we root for him? Sure. He's the protagonist. But I think just about everyone has a moment in the series they turn against him. They want to see the story continue but they want him to get justice because they also root for Hank. You even have Jesse Pinkman giving a speech in season 4 that amounts to, if we can do whatever we want and sin as much as we want without any consequence/justice on the other side of death, what's the point? Vince Gilligan admitted that for BB he was pulling from his former faith and that he still believed something akin to hell and justice had to exist. As of Better Call Saul, I honestly wonder if he's returned to his faith because you see Christianity all over it.
And before the 20th century it was much more common to have stories where things weren't so cut and dry. Shakespeare is full of anti-hero figures. Now, something I greatly dislike is people saying that morally gray is better. There's no such thing as gray. Of course everything is black and white but only God can discern that perfectly. We're always either too close or too far away and the black and white blend. Even in something like Lord of the Rings things aren't so cut and dry. For instance, I agree with both Sam and Frodo's treatment of Gollum. Or I at least understand both. The anti-hero has been at the heart of some of the best literature in world history and I don't think that is an inherent flaw of a given work would be my conclusion, I guess.
Would you say I have a plethera..😂😂.. one of my favorite movies ever 3 amigos .. GOD Bless
I think i read somewhere the sopranos creator made popular characters do terrible things to remind the audience they are bad people. Silvo and Adriana for example
I think anti heros are more realistic. They are always going to do right in their sight, they are going to be people who have been wronged so much that they just take it in their own hands.
I don’t believe this is new as I grew up in the 60s and 70s and after becoming a Christian I used to tell my husband that the movies we grew up with always portrayed the bad guy as good and the good guy as bad. Great example was Bonnie and Clyde with Warren Betty & Faye Dunnaway who became folk hero’s due to that movie. I’ve never seen any of the shows or movies or actors you mentioned.
You are definitely on to something. Andrew Klavan at the daily wire has made a similar argument. It is the father of lies at work. He would have us justify our self-righteousness. But God justifies the ungodly. Lord have mercy on me, a sinner.
Have you seen the trailer for the new Disney release, Wicked????
I saw a preview for a new movie which is a take on the Wizard of OZ. It gives a back story on the evil witch which will justify her being evil. Will she have a reason to try and kill Dorothy and Toto? I guess we will see..
The re-reimagining of Wicked, starring Ariana Grande?
I like your thoughts here, but I wonder about >shocking< Marxist influence in entertainment... Spreading the gospel of oppressor vs oppressed is key to the movement. Have your read Wimpy, Weak, and Woke by John Cooper? He did some pretty good, accessible homework on the subject, but Francis Schaeffer was warning us of all this in detail decades ago.
We all have reasons for our besetting sins. I may have an issue with anger because my mom had an issue with anger. It's a humanly valid reason, and it may be relatable to other people and therefore a useful detail in my life story. Or maybe it will help me to act mercifully towards another person because i know their struggle. The reasons are useful, But the reasons dont provide an excuse. In fact, those sins may have such good reasons behind them that i become slave to them.....slave to sin? Where have i heard that before?
Christ sets us free of our slavery to sin.
Yes, and I hate it. Highway to Heaven was the last real show I watched, with Michael Landon. That's about the best TV I've seen in years. Everything else is so evil, I can't spend more than a few minutes watching it. I did watch the first two seasons of Daredevil, which was a good show. But, EXTREMELY VIOLENT. I also like A-Team and Knight Rider.
I do like heroes with a redemption arc, though, like in Japanese Anime, you have Reroni Kenshin or Vegeta, who were the absolute worst, but turned into truly good people. Those are everyone's favorite kind of hero. The Pauls of the world. We also like Christ characters, too. Good people who are so good, it makes them a victim. People love that kind of character, too.
Well, Tony Soprano and Walt White are less anti-heroes and more villain protagonists. No one thinks they're good; they're just who the story focuses on.
I do not think this is pop culture glorifying evil as good, so much as it is a message that human beings are complex. That many of us are not "All good" or necessarily "all bad" being a film lover probably as much as you are Kieth (I notice we share this infatuation for film and television) it can be misread in this way, or we can look at it from a different perspective, we are all battling our own demons. These characters are no more flawed then we are at the end of the day. These shows are actually doing society a service by showing that sin destroys the characters lives and why the ends do not justify the means. Whether that is Tony Soprano or Walter White.
It's true. You can see it in new media as well, only done far worse and far woke. Lol
We kind of laugh at it because they portray their ideal protagonist, but people rightly recognize them as the antagonist.
The whole twisted (anti) hero was a huge thing in the mid 2000s, which is when most of those shows popped up. I didn't watch them though because I was poor and couldn't afford cable. Lol in retrospect, glad I didn't.
I'm actually working on a sermon titled Heros & Villians
On the money...I think the anti hero might have started earlier...look at the spaghetti Westerns like The good ..the bad etc...The good is not good...he is just going after the loot...like the others.
Right on target! There are so many shows I've watched one episode of and immediately bailed because the main character was obviously evil. Maybe I just lack sympathy for jerks and crooks.
I really hate how they make the good guys and hero’s evil to. Dark knight (second hand information here) the spider man in the black suit. Can’t we just let the good guys be good guys?
I rarely watch movies nowadays, Ford v Ferrari was the last movie I watched, last before that was….can’t remember.
Not unrelated is true crime. I’m not sure what it says about us when someone else’s pain and suffering is the source of another’s entertainment…
I think that the entrance of Postmodernism into our society and culture destroys heroes.
Postmodernism deconstructs everything, even the meanings of good and evil.
Humanity always looked up to heroes, be them Biblical, Pagan, Folktale Heros, Dramas, Comic books and Movies. But Postmodernism ended that.
Well I would add that when we first see the Grinch as a baby in his little flying thing, the Grinch leans the flying machine so that he knocks into another flying machine, knocking it sideways, causing the baby inside to cry, all the while the Grinch baby laughs. The baby Grinch also bites the head off the Santa Cookie plate, and declares Santa bye, bye. This was all before the traumatic event at the school Christmas Party.
So clearly the Grinch has a sin nature.
Technically this isn’t new though. Robin Hood is one of the earliest anti-heroes, and nobody has a problem with him. I feel that this is only a problem when we frame it as a new development.
I’m not sure Robin would qualify, as in the narrative it is clear that Prince John and the Sherriff are the bad guys. Though they represent authority, they are clearly corrupt and get their comeuppance in the end. I do appreciate the thought though and thank you for commenting. Definitely gives another layer to consider.
The idea that Robin Hood is an antihero who steals from the rich and gives to the poor is a new and Socialist interpretation. Robin Hood was always about a godly man who serves his king. When the king goes on to the holy land, Sir Robin remains behind. The prince that rules in the king’s stead is corrupt and labels the faithful Robin Hood an outlaw. Through delivering the people from injustice and maintaining a hopeful and merry disposition in the absence of his king, Robin Hood fends off the evil rule of Prince John while being a sojourn in the land of his birth until the king returns and pardons him.
Robin Hood is clearly influenced by the Christian walk as we are to do good and love kindness and remain joyful in the absence of our King while the Prince of the Power of the Air leads corruptly.
I think you're absolutely right in the sense that this is nothing new. Especially considering sin has been in the world since the garden. But surely you have to have noticed these twisted narratives coming out of the entertainment industry are getting much more frequent.
There's also the Hazbin Hotel. You can watch the trailer if curious. Not the show though. It looks pretty bad.
Die Hard is a Christmas movie.
Don’t @ me 😏