Pioneer prepped my skin skis for a run at the Thursday open track (started at about 9:45 am). My glide was outstanding! I was dusting people every downhill - especially on my first lap. Increasing temps for laps 2 and 3 slowed things down as the day progressed, but I was still faster than a lot of people on those downhills. My kick was never good, even in lap 1. I spend most of my time on anything steeper than a flat surface out of the tracks to find any hint of bite.
On Wednesday and Thursday after the first hour, it was very hard for the skin skis since there was a lot of moisture getting into the skins. Skincare products seemed to help but still weren't enough.
@@Pioneermidwestit’s not just a question of water… also just basic physics. Skins physically grab the snow, but if the snow is loose enough that it doesn’t hold to itself, you’re out of luck. Maybe in this new era of weather midwesterners will learn to embrace klister more. It’s not hard and it’s the best cross country skiing there is. These birkie days were amazing klister days and I felt sad for all the people I overheard proudly proclaiming their joy in “not having to deal with klister” pre-race….
First of all thank you for doing these transparent videos! Question regarding the structure, it’s often said that in the dirty snow conditions structure can cause increased dirt pick up, was that something you weighed? Like how can we know when structure might be a liability?
This is a tricky topic! There is a relationship between both how dirty and how wet the snow is. Regardless of how dirty the snow is, the wetter it is the easier it is for the "dirt" to be picked up. There are also certain types of structure that are more liable than others. Typically press tools such as the Red Creek tools are a safer options as opposed to cutting tools like the gear boxes you will see from Finite/Swix/SRB etc. We typically will recommend the Red Creek tools because they are easy to use, and for the most part are very "safe". We did some durability testing through the week and found that the structure we were using and recommending did not pick up as much dirt as others in our test.
I believe Swix recommends roto fleece for finishing their liquids - do you guys use roto wool on swix liquids too or is that a difference between the rex and swix products?
The term "wool" and "fleece" are sometimes used interchangeably (even though products are very much different). Roto wool is fluffy, while fleece is harder. Most all non-fluoro waxes work better with the wool (and this includes Swix). The fleece creates too much heat and can make the liquid waxes turn gummy and slow down your skis in certain situations. While Swix indeed does recommend the Roto-Fleece, we have found that the Roto-Wool performs better.
Swix doesn't really make a structure similar to what we recommended. Their tool functions completely differently than the tools we use. If you have the geared pressbox built by Finite it will put a more aggressive pattern on the ski. From this tool the most similar would have been the V005 with a 1mm linear on the tails. If you have one of their newer tools, it would still be the 0.5mm V structure, with a 1mm linear on the tails!
@@PioneermidwestThank you for replying and letting me know! I have basically predecessor of what's now Swix T0424, unfortunately not Finite pressbox. 😞Would you mind sharing how the Red Creek structure tool works differently than Swix T0424? I had always thought that the function of hand pressed structure tools is pretty much the same regardless the manufacturer so eager to learn more, if you find a minute to share.
The geared structure tools end up applying structure deeper/more aggressively since they actually cut into the base (roll backwards) vs push in a structure like a traditional pressbox or Red Creek tool. The T0424 tool is similar to Red Creek in the sense that they roll forwards but has different structures available on the market that don't exactly line up with the Red Creek models.
You said the +5/-5 RC tool for colder races but your wax recommendations page said 0/-10. Was that a last-minute change? Both are Xmas tree patterns; I assume the warmer one is slightly coarser. I used 0/-10 for the 7 am Sat race and skis felt fast.
I used the Rode Multigrade and had FANTASTIC kick all the way through. Admittedly I was in Wave 1 (and obviously I don't know your wave) so we probably had the best possible conditions for the day too.
@@Pioneermidwest any cover over those choices? I used Rex Gold Moly on Friday, and had icing issues. I started in the last wave of the Kortie and finished 26th in the open race (i.e., non-elites), so I ended up skiing through many hundreds of people. Don't know whether the chewed up tracks or the actively falling snow contributed to the icing. But, I'm sure the latter wasn't helping. What would you recommend in the future if it's actively snowing and I'm on chewed up tracks?
@@peterschultz2888I’d bet it was the fresh snow. I started in wave 1 of the kortie and finished 6th. Vauhti premix violet/universal with a little extra universal underfoot kicked like a total mule and didn’t ice but did noticeably slow down the second lap especially in the tracks. Probably didn’t need the extra uni - straight violet/uni would have been great. FWIW all week I was confused by the gold recommendation. I understand that to be more of a fine-grained snow wax. Like for just as manmade snow turns to needing klister. My observation was this snow was way transformed so the more standard violets when cold or multigrades for warmer seemed more logical to me.
@@peterschultz2888 When we tested on Friday morning we also tested some covers and before it started to snow, we found that covers didn't help speed up the skis and only took kick away. Once it started to snow, a cover would probably have helped reduce icing and still have given some kick. One of my favorite covers when it starts to snow on klister conditions is Vauhti GT Pink.
Guru Extreme Base, Rex Gold Moly, and TK-2251 underfoot for Wave 1 Classic on Sunday and kick was perfect.
Ran on Rex NF21 on Saturday and skis where quite quick. So indeed a very good wax with a good range.
Pioneer prepped my skin skis for a run at the Thursday open track (started at about 9:45 am). My glide was outstanding! I was dusting people every downhill - especially on my first lap. Increasing temps for laps 2 and 3 slowed things down as the day progressed, but I was still faster than a lot of people on those downhills. My kick was never good, even in lap 1. I spend most of my time on anything steeper than a flat surface out of the tracks to find any hint of bite.
On Wednesday and Thursday after the first hour, it was very hard for the skin skis since there was a lot of moisture getting into the skins. Skincare products seemed to help but still weren't enough.
@@Pioneermidwestit’s not just a question of water… also just basic physics. Skins physically grab the snow, but if the snow is loose enough that it doesn’t hold to itself, you’re out of luck.
Maybe in this new era of weather midwesterners will learn to embrace klister more. It’s not hard and it’s the best cross country skiing there is. These birkie days were amazing klister days and I felt sad for all the people I overheard proudly proclaiming their joy in “not having to deal with klister” pre-race….
First of all thank you for doing these transparent videos! Question regarding the structure, it’s often said that in the dirty snow conditions structure can cause increased dirt pick up, was that something you weighed? Like how can we know when structure might be a liability?
This is a tricky topic! There is a relationship between both how dirty and how wet the snow is. Regardless of how dirty the snow is, the wetter it is the easier it is for the "dirt" to be picked up. There are also certain types of structure that are more liable than others. Typically press tools such as the Red Creek tools are a safer options as opposed to cutting tools like the gear boxes you will see from Finite/Swix/SRB etc.
We typically will recommend the Red Creek tools because they are easy to use, and for the most part are very "safe". We did some durability testing through the week and found that the structure we were using and recommending did not pick up as much dirt as others in our test.
I believe Swix recommends roto fleece for finishing their liquids - do you guys use roto wool on swix liquids too or is that a difference between the rex and swix products?
The term "wool" and "fleece" are sometimes used interchangeably (even though products are very much different). Roto wool is fluffy, while fleece is harder. Most all non-fluoro waxes work better with the wool (and this includes Swix). The fleece creates too much heat and can make the liquid waxes turn gummy and slow down your skis in certain situations. While Swix indeed does recommend the Roto-Fleece, we have found that the Roto-Wool performs better.
Thanks for the debrief! If there's a way to compare, what would be please Swix version of the Red Creek structure you found as best performing?
Swix doesn't really make a structure similar to what we recommended. Their tool functions completely differently than the tools we use. If you have the geared pressbox built by Finite it will put a more aggressive pattern on the ski. From this tool the most similar would have been the V005 with a 1mm linear on the tails. If you have one of their newer tools, it would still be the 0.5mm V structure, with a 1mm linear on the tails!
@@PioneermidwestThank you for replying and letting me know! I have basically predecessor of what's now Swix T0424, unfortunately not Finite pressbox. 😞Would you mind sharing how the Red Creek structure tool works differently than Swix T0424? I had always thought that the function of hand pressed structure tools is pretty much the same regardless the manufacturer so eager to learn more, if you find a minute to share.
The geared structure tools end up applying structure deeper/more aggressively since they actually cut into the base (roll backwards) vs push in a structure like a traditional pressbox or Red Creek tool. The T0424 tool is similar to Red Creek in the sense that they roll forwards but has different structures available on the market that don't exactly line up with the Red Creek models.
Thanks so much for finding the time and letting me know! Appreciate it.
You said the +5/-5 RC tool for colder races but your wax recommendations page said 0/-10. Was that a last-minute change? Both are Xmas tree patterns; I assume the warmer one is slightly coarser. I used 0/-10 for the 7 am Sat race and skis felt fast.
Yes that was a last minute change, both tools worked very well and are a similar Xmas tree pattern and were very close in ski speed.
@@Pioneermidwest Were you applying structure to the entire ski or just binding to tails?
@@cpm881 We applied the christmas tree tool to the entire ski, and the 1mm on the tails only (heel plate and back).
What kick wax was working well on Sunday?
I used the Rode Multigrade and had FANTASTIC kick all the way through. Admittedly I was in Wave 1 (and obviously I don't know your wave) so we probably had the best possible conditions for the day too.
Multigrade was great on Sunday morning and Start Uni Wide was another great option with a little more kick!
@@Pioneermidwest any cover over those choices? I used Rex Gold Moly on Friday, and had icing issues. I started in the last wave of the Kortie and finished 26th in the open race (i.e., non-elites), so I ended up skiing through many hundreds of people. Don't know whether the chewed up tracks or the actively falling snow contributed to the icing. But, I'm sure the latter wasn't helping. What would you recommend in the future if it's actively snowing and I'm on chewed up tracks?
@@peterschultz2888I’d bet it was the fresh snow. I started in wave 1 of the kortie and finished 6th. Vauhti premix violet/universal with a little extra universal underfoot kicked like a total mule and didn’t ice but did noticeably slow down the second lap especially in the tracks. Probably didn’t need the extra uni - straight violet/uni would have been great.
FWIW all week I was confused by the gold recommendation. I understand that to be more of a fine-grained snow wax. Like for just as manmade snow turns to needing klister. My observation was this snow was way transformed so the more standard violets when cold or multigrades for warmer seemed more logical to me.
@@peterschultz2888 When we tested on Friday morning we also tested some covers and before it started to snow, we found that covers didn't help speed up the skis and only took kick away. Once it started to snow, a cover would probably have helped reduce icing and still have given some kick. One of my favorite covers when it starts to snow on klister conditions is Vauhti GT Pink.