To succeed in any sport, you need the proper equipment. I have spent in excess of $10,000.00 on chess, mostly on the chess sets (gem encrusted rare hardwood pieces, gold inlaid precision board), but also on my chess shoes, my chess jersey, and all of my protective gear. I haven't actually learned the rules of the game yet, but at least I'm primed to succeed.
Physical clubs are s-tier for me. It's where I get submerged in chess culture, play tourneys, get lectures, meet strong players. It combines elements of tournaments, camps, and social elements. Clubs are where some of the most fun can be had. They're not expensive either, not for membership anyway.
52:43 I'm honestly quite surprised Clubs wasn't a unanimous S. Maybe it depends on what the goal is, is it best money spent on chess in general, or best money spent specifically to get better. Clubs give you a social outlet to meet new people with a common interest, they give you regular opponents, OTB games, sometimes your club might have a Team you can join for leagues, sometimes they might even do group trips for a tournament, which makes it a lot more comfortable turning up to a tournament for the first time if you have experienced people there. And all that for the price of one coaching session (my local club is £40 a year I believe). I don't think it's the most optimal way to improve at chess, but I think for money spent on chess it's a no brainer to be top of the pile! The way I see it, S tier should be the best thing you'd suggest to someone with £50 disposable income to spend on their hobby for a year. If all you have is that one £50 in a year, without question join a club over anything else on this list in my opinion.
As a Chesscom member, I’ll say that memberships are like gym memberships - excellent if you use it properly but terrible if you use it the way I or most people use it.
Here’s an S-tier: A training partner. You can get one for free to train with and motivate you! And an F-tier: Variant chess sets, like fairy chess or 4-player chess. A statistical analysis showed those actually reduce growth relative to just playing normal chess.
I think free content is one of the best ways to get people started with chess because it’s fun and engaging. But you will see as a persons ELO increases so does their discernment of what they consume. I think when you guys talked about why the chess boom has happened a few years ago you nailed it. The benefit of your collective experience is you have experienced some of the less good stuff (like the book that set Jesse back 2 years) and now you’re here telling us to not make the mistakes you made. Love these videos gentlemen. 🙌
That was a thorny task considering how variable the specifics are. I'd put clubs in the S tier because I belonged to a good one that regularly had optional rapid tournaments, two rounds one night a week. I'd also put weekend tournaments in the S tier because I live in a big city where there are lots with low entry fees. If I get back into serious chess, I have little doubt I'd find the Dojo S tier as well. I'm with David on chess sets, if they're not too cheap. I can't see how a premium set helps with improvement. I've always been very satisfied with plastic tournament sets. I'm a capitalist, BTW. :-) I enjoyed this episode a lot.
To David's point about "bootstrapping" tournaments and then coming back and acknowledging that things aren't always close, I don't think most people know how easy it is to set up a local USCF club and how easy it is to become a USCF Club Level Tournament Director. It's basically filling out a form and paying a nominal fee, and you can be a Club level TD for 3 years before you need to start taking tests to stay a TD. As a Club level TD, you can run rated tournaments as long as they are below 50 participants. If theres nothing close, but you have interested locals, becoming a USCF TD is a possibility.
Clubs have got to be S tier, simply because the cost corresponds directly to the services offered. Yeah, a coffeehouse club ain’t too good for improvement, but those are usually free. If there’s a membership fee or other costs, that’s usually because they’re organizing tournaments, events, and masterclasses for a good price.
Exactly. I think they (especially Jesse) were approaching clubs from IM/GM standpoint. Clubs in general don't have much to offer for players of that skill level. However, for us mortals clubs are most certainly S tier. They are in general so cheap and provide with a lot of benefits. All that stuff you mentioned but you also make friends with other chess enthusiasts in the area. We all need like-minded friends as humans. But with friends come chess-related benefits, too, which can save you tons of money. Plenty of things were mentioned in other sections of the video like car pools and splitting hotel rooms. By attending a local chess club and socializing is how those benefits turn real. There are various other ways to save money as well, like lending and borrowing books and so on. If you are reading this post in a city and don't belong to a chess club, what are you doing? Whatever it costs to attend, it's well worth it.
I am watching this video because I have two boys just started, both U8. So I am very interested. My current spending: $1000 per year for books, $2000 per year for tournament fees, $10,000 for group coaching, $30,000 for face-to-face coaching (4 of them, FM, IM, GM), and $10,000 for travel fees related to overseas tournaments. Goal: 2000 FIDE rating by 10 years old, and CM title before 10 too. So far, on track. Disclosure, we live down under.
I can't speak for the coaching or the tournament fees but $1000 a year for books seems extremely high unless that includes video courses. Most chess books are $20-$30 so that's about 20-50 chess books per year which nobody is going to read at that rate. But wow! Huge investmen! Best of luck!
@@fvalemus5377 . Wow! Seems high per book compared to the US. I still think its a lot for books but if you got no problem dropping that kind of cash on coaches then it doesn't matter. I have a lot of books too - maybe about $1k worth that I bought over the years. Regardless, best of luck and I hope to hear about your kids becoming titled players coming in the near future. You should definitely reach out to chess outlets if/when your kids achieve their goals. Cheers!
This was a great video. You guys are spot on with all the rankings. I was lucky enough to find an expert lvl coach that helped me improve tremendously so I'd have to agree with David and rank coaching as S ++ tier but only under those circumstances he mentioned. Anyways, very entertaining and informative video. Kudos to the Dojo! -DaiWynn
This was a great reminder how lucky i am to live in Minnesota. We have daily club tournaments in the twin cities, and monthly state tournaments with 50+ players and usually more. Very grateful to feel there are too many tournaments i want to play!
TH-cam is entertainment But I watch a chess “training” video while I am on the treadmill or stair machine at the gym. Andras Toth, Daniel Naroditsky, Ben Finegold all make good videos. It may be passive learning, but what else can you do while walking 3 miles?
This is just as entertaining as it is informative. I love the dynamic between these guys and the banter is hilarious. Local clubs are the obvious S tier because the best way to improve is to play serious chess. I go to our local club to paly highly competitive serious classical games in one of the club’s tournaments and we play against other clubs in the district league. Tournaments are A tier because they also involve playing but are infrequent and take place in metropolitan centres, which can be out of reach for some, so offer less quality chess per dollar overall. The rest they judged about right. So join a local club, play in the occasional tournament, review your games, practice puzzles either from a book or online, and you are all set on the road to improvement.
I love sitting down and pouring through a good chess book. I even enjoy opening books, as long as they have lots of good explanations of the ideas, aims, weaknesses, etc. associated with that opening, and not just tons and tons of variations and sidelines. But I can see why advanced or pro players would have no need of them. I'm with Jesse on digital material--I tend to just tear through the content and less of it sticks.
I have heard recommendations for *some* opening books: for example "Understanding the Grünfeld" by Rowson, Larry Kaufmann's "The Kaufman Repertoire for Black and White" and both "Bologan's Black Weapons" and "Bologan's Ruy Lopez."
Out of those I've read Rowsons book on the Grünfeld and can tell you it was absolutely marvelous. Even if you have no plans whatsoever on playing it, I think any player can learn alot from it
A better format for this talk would have been to go through each item and list the pros and cons of each. Also, talk about good resources under that category and not so good (e.g. which magazines are worth it and which are not... Or which types of clubs are good for chess development and which don't contribute much.)
Regarding tournaments and money… In-state tournaments are S tier, but I can agree with Kostya that out of state tournaments and especially out of country tournaments are probably a bad investment or at least aren’t a good value for the money spent
24:40 that’s the bulk of players these days. If I hit 2000 on any time control, then, and only then would I consider playing a in person tournament. I assume this thought process is pretty common in the adult chess world.
He is adorable, yes, but he is a bit wrong too. If you set up chessable to present the material as quiz first, it becomes very much interactive. A total brain-wringer. And that is just much better than any paper - book. Well, in my humble opinion of course. If you buy the courses without video, they are often well priced and the value is really based on what you put into them.
I really like the dynamic these 3 have together. Very informative as a newer chess player well past the prime age for chess players. Ppl fall into pay to win mentalities. I feel like a book tier list would be great.
Chess does not require too much money if you play casually, but if you want to become a serious chess player you do need a lot of cash. To play decent 5 round tournaments is at least 500 dollars a pop. If you play 4 tourneys a year that is 2K, That is a lot of money.
coaching is ranked quite low but surely all 3 of you guys had coaching as a kid, it is very rare to get to such a high level without lots of coaching as children
I had coaching, as I mentioned in the video. It was really good for me, but on average it’s not as good/cost-effective as many of the other things we compared it to here.
I think their assessment of big tournaments was specifically about chess value. How much did you spend on entry fee, travel, lodging, and food? $1000? How much would it have cost to play the same number of games at local weekend tournaments? $75? There's certainly value in the experience of getting to travel and go to a cool event, but I think they're just saying if you spent that $1000 on a good game collection and 100 classical games' worth of weekend tournaments, you could probably get to master level without spending anything more.
@@dsrguru I was stationed in Yuma at the time so it only cost me the gas to go there and a cheap motel in the Phoenix area... and food. I spent nowhere near $500 even. If you are nearby a large National tournament then it is worthwhile to play in it if you can.
The real downside to courses (beside the slop-sifting) is they aren’t tangibly permanent. If Chessable goes belly-up your courses are gone, whereas if you take good care of your books (or at least scan them) you can keep them forever. And books are good shelf decorations. But courses are technically “better” in that technology is endlessly flexible, modular, and portable. Yes, they require less interaction, but that’s up to the user.
Agreed! I stopped buying chessable courses in favor of hard copy books. For one I prefer to use a physical board and, if desired, save any annotations in a lichess study with the pgn rather than paying hundreds or more in chessable courses that may or may not be around years from now. Another way to study with physical books is to look up the pgn games in a database while reading the physical book. Hard copy books rule in my opinion. I like the way ichess (not lichess) used to sell courses before chesscom bought them and closed the company. I bought a course from J polgar on the sicilian, downloaded the video and the pgns. Company went out of business but I have the content for life.
I hate rote memorization, and I'm quite active using interactive courses, analyzing and trying to understand the material. It's the same with books. As you said, it's up to the user, and I'd add also to the reader.
1:25:00 I have a lovely wooden chess set, I love it, really nice to look at and play with. Still think it's insane to put this anything above C though. It's not D cause it's not useless, but it's purely an emotional purchase in my opinion, it being nice does not enhance your play (at least it doesn't enhance mine).
In my experience the dojo is not that structured at all. I had a huge checklist of all these things that I could be doing and no real direction otherwise. Maybe I missed something?
For me a chess club is a clear S tier, then Books, chess set and Tournaments. A chess coach can be really helpful, but is not cost efficient and i only wood recommend that if u don't care about money that much.
38:44 as a guy with a shelf full books. I will never go through them. Chessable on the other hand. 178 day streak. Grinding it constantly. It an “S” on my scale.
Any tips for the folks out there that don't have a local chess club in their area? That sounds like a really great thing but it has to exist for it to be beneficial :/ and the whole "all this is pointless unless you're playing OTB tournaments" 19:50 attitude is pretty lame tbh, we don't all live somewhere where it's happening, where we can play rated games without leaving town. Chess is big enough for all of us, from the OTB snobs to the online blitz for fun people. At least i thought it was...
I think that statement was a bit of hyperbole, but how well you play OTB classical is still the standard for measuring chess strength. It's the toughest test for players. Maybe that will change, but if it does it's probably a long way away.
1:30:01 for once I am in agreement with David 😂. Don’t need a board and it doesn’t need to be nice 😂. Chess is an online game. Get a $20 board from target so you have one in the house.
Books compared to courses Several times I have done both the book and its course. The book does a better job of teaching me the concepts, and going over the material over the board has incredible value. But then buying that same book as a Chessable, course also has value… As repetition builds memory.
Karjaken regardless of how you feel about him or his views personally is and has been a world class top elite player for some time now. He was one of the strongest youths in his generation. One the best coached players in the world too. All top players go to invite only tournaments..
@@ShawnChess No doubt, but I think the consensus, backed by reasonable speculation, is Karjaken got the "world's youngest GM" title by playing at an inaccurate Elo (sandbag) tournament where the older players did not play to their potential. Still I would like to see him play today, tho he says he's semi-retired.
Ask Jesse. The other thing this list is 'biased' since they are rating performance as in "bang for the buck". So a private coach may be relatively low on the list since you spend a lot of money (the denominator is large) compared to reading a library book on chess, but, it might actually give you the best performance. My performance jumped by about 300 points (I'm 2100 on LiChess blitz) when I hired a coach long term and trained with them in person. It was not cheap but it was effective.
@@raylopez99 . I hit 2300 lichess within 5 years and no coach. I'm a casual player as I work full time but I have no problem using free online resources or reading a good hard copy book that cost $20-$30. With a coach and proper effort I suspect I would be at least 2400-2500 lichess by now.
Tournaments and chess clubs need to be in S-tier simply because if you're not playing at a sanctioned club as an amateur or in tournaments as a titled player then what are you doing spending money on chess? To get real life experience you need to play OTB and that means either clubs or tournaments. Chesscom A-tier??? Give me a break! Lichess does everything better and its 100% free. A nice chess set is a novelty and has no better impact on chess learning than a tournament set - D-tier. Some books also belong in S-tier as there is very little out there with more value for the money than a well written chess book.
Unless you're trying to turn chess into your job I don't really see what it matters whether you're spending money trying to improve online or OTB. It's all "wasted". While I personally prefer playing seriously OTB to playing seriously online at the end of the day I'm not laboring under the illusion that the way I'm doing it is somehow more noble. I'm doing it as a hobby, to challenge myself, to try to improve my rating, for the community. All those things can be achieved online, too. It's not like my USCF rating is any less arbitrary than my lichess rating. Also I'm someone lucky enough to live in an area with a relatively good local chess scene- not everyone has that opportunity. Just because someone lives in the boonies my attempts at improvement aren't more worthy than theirs.
This is a shameless promotion for chess-dojo program. Even FREE chess stuff is bad accordingly to BOSS. If you do your homework properly you can do a lotof stufffor free that is on par with paid: Lichess, even free dojo stuff on youtube , free chessable courses etc. Somehow accordingly to BOSS a book that was put on chessable and now have interactive exercises is worst than paper one.
Jesse thinks interactive online courses encourage you to passively go through the motions whereas books require active involvement. IMO that's probably true to a point, but you can go through books passively as well. Individual attitude is what really matters. Personally, I frequently analyze positions that come up in courses. I try to understand moves, not just memorize them. Using interactive courses this way makes them better than books, quicker, more efficient, and the sites I use have the particular advantage of smart spaced repetition. Online training was an obvious topic to cover, and not mentioning the Dojo would have been odd. I thought they were quite modest about doing it, and David also gave a big endorsement of Killer Chess Training. It didn't seem like an attempt at promotion at all.
It wasn’t intended as promotion. It was an interesting topic, and our program happens to fall within the discussion. Obviously we are biased in favor of our program- if we didn’t think it was good, we wouldn’t offer it, or we would be working super hard to fix it, and would honestly warn people it wasn’t great yet. So take the rating of our own program with a grain of salt obviously coming from us, and focus on all the other elements discussed.
To succeed in any sport, you need the proper equipment. I have spent in excess of $10,000.00 on chess, mostly on the chess sets (gem encrusted rare hardwood pieces, gold inlaid precision board), but also on my chess shoes, my chess jersey, and all of my protective gear. I haven't actually learned the rules of the game yet, but at least I'm primed to succeed.
😂😂😂😂😂
Physical clubs are s-tier for me. It's where I get submerged in chess culture, play tourneys, get lectures, meet strong players. It combines elements of tournaments, camps, and social elements. Clubs are where some of the most fun can be had. They're not expensive either, not for membership anyway.
52:43 I'm honestly quite surprised Clubs wasn't a unanimous S. Maybe it depends on what the goal is, is it best money spent on chess in general, or best money spent specifically to get better. Clubs give you a social outlet to meet new people with a common interest, they give you regular opponents, OTB games, sometimes your club might have a Team you can join for leagues, sometimes they might even do group trips for a tournament, which makes it a lot more comfortable turning up to a tournament for the first time if you have experienced people there. And all that for the price of one coaching session (my local club is £40 a year I believe). I don't think it's the most optimal way to improve at chess, but I think for money spent on chess it's a no brainer to be top of the pile!
The way I see it, S tier should be the best thing you'd suggest to someone with £50 disposable income to spend on their hobby for a year. If all you have is that one £50 in a year, without question join a club over anything else on this list in my opinion.
As a Chesscom member, I’ll say that memberships are like gym memberships - excellent if you use it properly but terrible if you use it the way I or most people use it.
Here’s an S-tier: A training partner. You can get one for free to train with and motivate you!
And an F-tier: Variant chess sets, like fairy chess or 4-player chess. A statistical analysis showed those actually reduce growth relative to just playing normal chess.
interesting to see if this applies to fischer random, cuz i would think not...... idk tho
@@GustavoMaldonado42 Fischer Random is statistically insignificant compared to regular chess
@@Sitbear oh alr, cool to know
I think free content is one of the best ways to get people started with chess because it’s fun and engaging. But you will see as a persons ELO increases so does their discernment of what they consume. I think when you guys talked about why the chess boom has happened a few years ago you nailed it. The benefit of your collective experience is you have experienced some of the less good stuff (like the book that set Jesse back 2 years) and now you’re here telling us to not make the mistakes you made.
Love these videos gentlemen. 🙌
7:27 'Some guy' is Cyrus Lakdawala, he wrote tons of books on opening which he doesn't even play
He does play them, and includes many of his games in the books.
That was a thorny task considering how variable the specifics are. I'd put clubs in the S tier because I belonged to a good one that regularly had optional rapid tournaments, two rounds one night a week. I'd also put weekend tournaments in the S tier because I live in a big city where there are lots with low entry fees. If I get back into serious chess, I have little doubt I'd find the Dojo S tier as well.
I'm with David on chess sets, if they're not too cheap. I can't see how a premium set helps with improvement. I've always been very satisfied with plastic tournament sets. I'm a capitalist, BTW. :-)
I enjoyed this episode a lot.
To David's point about "bootstrapping" tournaments and then coming back and acknowledging that things aren't always close, I don't think most people know how easy it is to set up a local USCF club and how easy it is to become a USCF Club Level Tournament Director.
It's basically filling out a form and paying a nominal fee, and you can be a Club level TD for 3 years before you need to start taking tests to stay a TD. As a Club level TD, you can run rated tournaments as long as they are below 50 participants. If theres nothing close, but you have interested locals, becoming a USCF TD is a possibility.
Clubs have got to be S tier, simply because the cost corresponds directly to the services offered. Yeah, a coffeehouse club ain’t too good for improvement, but those are usually free. If there’s a membership fee or other costs, that’s usually because they’re organizing tournaments, events, and masterclasses for a good price.
Yeah. So is the Dojo Discord very expensive? Don't understand krai's reasoning at all.
Exactly. I think they (especially Jesse) were approaching clubs from IM/GM standpoint. Clubs in general don't have much to offer for players of that skill level. However, for us mortals clubs are most certainly S tier. They are in general so cheap and provide with a lot of benefits. All that stuff you mentioned but you also make friends with other chess enthusiasts in the area. We all need like-minded friends as humans. But with friends come chess-related benefits, too, which can save you tons of money. Plenty of things were mentioned in other sections of the video like car pools and splitting hotel rooms. By attending a local chess club and socializing is how those benefits turn real. There are various other ways to save money as well, like lending and borrowing books and so on.
If you are reading this post in a city and don't belong to a chess club, what are you doing? Whatever it costs to attend, it's well worth it.
I am watching this video because I have two boys just started, both U8. So I am very interested. My current spending: $1000 per year for books, $2000 per year for tournament fees, $10,000 for group coaching, $30,000 for face-to-face coaching (4 of them, FM, IM, GM), and $10,000 for travel fees related to overseas tournaments. Goal: 2000 FIDE rating by 10 years old, and CM title before 10 too. So far, on track. Disclosure, we live down under.
Damn you really are creating some GMs
I can't speak for the coaching or the tournament fees but $1000 a year for books seems extremely high unless that includes video courses. Most chess books are $20-$30 so that's about 20-50 chess books per year which nobody is going to read at that rate. But wow! Huge investmen! Best of luck!
@MrSupernova111 I am using AUD. And also, books are $45-60 AUD a piece.
Do they have time to read your $1000 worth of books every year?
@@fvalemus5377 . Wow! Seems high per book compared to the US. I still think its a lot for books but if you got no problem dropping that kind of cash on coaches then it doesn't matter. I have a lot of books too - maybe about $1k worth that I bought over the years. Regardless, best of luck and I hope to hear about your kids becoming titled players coming in the near future. You should definitely reach out to chess outlets if/when your kids achieve their goals. Cheers!
This was a great video. You guys are spot on with all the rankings. I was lucky enough to find an expert lvl coach that helped me improve tremendously so I'd have to agree with David and rank coaching as S ++ tier but only under those circumstances he mentioned. Anyways, very entertaining and informative video. Kudos to the Dojo! -DaiWynn
This was a great reminder how lucky i am to live in Minnesota. We have daily club tournaments in the twin cities, and monthly state tournaments with 50+ players and usually more. Very grateful to feel there are too many tournaments i want to play!
Oh hi there!
@michaelflaherty3202 hey Michael!
I'm so jealous aha
“I like a nice set” - Kostya Kavutskiy, 2024
TH-cam is entertainment
But
I watch a chess “training” video while I am on the treadmill or stair machine at the gym. Andras Toth, Daniel Naroditsky, Ben Finegold all make good videos.
It may be passive learning, but what else can you do while walking 3 miles?
This is just as entertaining as it is informative. I love the dynamic between these guys and the banter is hilarious. Local clubs are the obvious S tier because the best way to improve is to play serious chess. I go to our local club to paly highly competitive serious classical games in one of the club’s tournaments and we play against other clubs in the district league. Tournaments are A tier because they also involve playing but are infrequent and take place in metropolitan centres, which can be out of reach for some, so offer less quality chess per dollar overall. The rest they judged about right. So join a local club, play in the occasional tournament, review your games, practice puzzles either from a book or online, and you are all set on the road to improvement.
I would love one of these just on free content
One of my few purchases that wasn’t a waste was on Kostya’s endgame studies 101. One of the few books I finished.
I love sitting down and pouring through a good chess book. I even enjoy opening books, as long as they have lots of good explanations of the ideas, aims, weaknesses, etc. associated with that opening, and not just tons and tons of variations and sidelines. But I can see why advanced or pro players would have no need of them. I'm with Jesse on digital material--I tend to just tear through the content and less of it sticks.
I have heard recommendations for *some* opening books: for example "Understanding the Grünfeld" by Rowson, Larry Kaufmann's "The Kaufman Repertoire for Black and White" and both "Bologan's Black Weapons" and "Bologan's Ruy Lopez."
Out of those I've read Rowsons book on the Grünfeld and can tell you it was absolutely marvelous. Even if you have no plans whatsoever on playing it, I think any player can learn alot from it
I have never read it but people really seem to love Mayhem in the Morra.
A better format for this talk would have been to go through each item and list the pros and cons of each. Also, talk about good resources under that category and not so good (e.g. which magazines are worth it and which are not... Or which types of clubs are good for chess development and which don't contribute much.)
good suggestion.
This is a great video idea 🤩
Regarding tournaments and money…
In-state tournaments are S tier, but I can agree with Kostya that out of state tournaments and especially out of country tournaments are probably a bad investment or at least aren’t a good value for the money spent
crazy that Jesse is the one pointing out that chessbase is outdatet
lol loved this. This was great.
24:40 that’s the bulk of players these days. If I hit 2000 on any time control, then, and only then would I consider playing a in person tournament. I assume this thought process is pretty common in the adult chess world.
Jesse: "I've authored two courses.... C!"
I love the honesty there. I recommend his courses!
He is adorable, yes, but he is a bit wrong too.
If you set up chessable to present the material as quiz first, it becomes very much interactive. A total brain-wringer. And that is just much better than any paper - book.
Well, in my humble opinion of course.
If you buy the courses without video, they are often well priced and the value is really based on what you put into them.
Very interesting and useful video. Congrats 🤗🤗
I really like the dynamic these 3 have together. Very informative as a newer chess player well past the prime age for chess players. Ppl fall into pay to win mentalities. I feel like a book tier list would be great.
Yes we've got some best books videos!
The average listener here has a rating below 1200, if that. But most of the discussion seems to be focused on 2200+ GM aspirants.
Lol at David's face when Jesse started geeking out about his old wooden chess set
Chess does not require too much money if you play casually, but if you want to become a serious chess player you do need a lot of cash.
To play decent 5 round tournaments is at least 500 dollars a pop. If you play 4 tourneys a year that is 2K, That is a lot of money.
I agree with Jesse on the idea that a nice chess set is a money well spent.
coaching is ranked quite low but surely all 3 of you guys had coaching as a kid, it is very rare to get to such a high level without lots of coaching as children
I had coaching, as I mentioned in the video. It was really good for me, but on average it’s not as good/cost-effective as many of the other things we compared it to here.
I disagree about big tournaments, too! My best chess experience was playing in the 2005 US Open *and* I gained 48 rating points at it!
I think their assessment of big tournaments was specifically about chess value. How much did you spend on entry fee, travel, lodging, and food? $1000? How much would it have cost to play the same number of games at local weekend tournaments? $75? There's certainly value in the experience of getting to travel and go to a cool event, but I think they're just saying if you spent that $1000 on a good game collection and 100 classical games' worth of weekend tournaments, you could probably get to master level without spending anything more.
@@dsrguru I was stationed in Yuma at the time so it only cost me the gas to go there and a cheap motel in the Phoenix area... and food.
I spent nowhere near $500 even.
If you are nearby a large National tournament then it is worthwhile to play in it if you can.
@@ChessWithMouselip Makes sense. They even clarified iirc that they don't recommend going to the big opens *unless* you live in commuting distance.
@@dsrguru I missed that clarification. It was an enlightening episode. Thanks.
The real downside to courses (beside the slop-sifting) is they aren’t tangibly permanent. If Chessable goes belly-up your courses are gone, whereas if you take good care of your books (or at least scan them) you can keep them forever. And books are good shelf decorations.
But courses are technically “better” in that technology is endlessly flexible, modular, and portable. Yes, they require less interaction, but that’s up to the user.
Agreed! I stopped buying chessable courses in favor of hard copy books. For one I prefer to use a physical board and, if desired, save any annotations in a lichess study with the pgn rather than paying hundreds or more in chessable courses that may or may not be around years from now. Another way to study with physical books is to look up the pgn games in a database while reading the physical book. Hard copy books rule in my opinion. I like the way ichess (not lichess) used to sell courses before chesscom bought them and closed the company. I bought a course from J polgar on the sicilian, downloaded the video and the pgns. Company went out of business but I have the content for life.
I hate rote memorization, and I'm quite active using interactive courses, analyzing and trying to understand the material. It's the same with books. As you said, it's up to the user, and I'd add also to the reader.
You just aren't trying hard enough. You can "scan" your online courses as well. It's just maybe not as straightforward of a process
1:25:00 I have a lovely wooden chess set, I love it, really nice to look at and play with. Still think it's insane to put this anything above C though. It's not D cause it's not useless, but it's purely an emotional purchase in my opinion, it being nice does not enhance your play (at least it doesn't enhance mine).
Free content, free in terms of money, so expensive in terms of time.
What?! Gen Z people aren’t opposed to F if the tier is needed. Slander!
Do y'all know of any chess "camps", intensives or multi-day workshops for adults? That may make for good content because it's hard to find online.
Ps love you all even when i dissagree. Thx for the discussion
In my experience the dojo is not that structured at all. I had a huge checklist of all these things that I could be doing and no real direction otherwise. Maybe I missed something?
100 on own 1 nice wood set.
Loved it
For me a chess club is a clear S tier, then Books, chess set and Tournaments.
A chess coach can be really helpful, but is not cost efficient and i only wood recommend that if u don't care about money that much.
53:32 lol no adds. And that makes it all worth it.
38:44 as a guy with a shelf full books. I will never go through them. Chessable on the other hand. 178 day streak. Grinding it constantly. It an “S” on my scale.
How would you rank buying Foxy openings dvds on eBay?
Probably pretty low 😄
Didn't the S, A, B, C, D tier thing come from video games? like devil may cry series, with chaining together combos and stuff, is that right?
I thought it was racing
Any tips for the folks out there that don't have a local chess club in their area? That sounds like a really great thing but it has to exist for it to be beneficial :/
and the whole "all this is pointless unless you're playing OTB tournaments" 19:50 attitude is pretty lame tbh, we don't all live somewhere where it's happening, where we can play rated games without leaving town. Chess is big enough for all of us, from the OTB snobs to the online blitz for fun people. At least i thought it was...
I think that statement was a bit of hyperbole, but how well you play OTB classical is still the standard for measuring chess strength. It's the toughest test for players. Maybe that will change, but if it does it's probably a long way away.
Join an online club like the Dojo! Problem solved 😊
Create your own local club! I’ve done it a couple times, and it really is the best!
1:30:01 for once I am in agreement with David 😂. Don’t need a board and it doesn’t need to be nice 😂. Chess is an online game. Get a $20 board from target so you have one in the house.
Kostya should do like Raven Sturt and move to Europe for a while. Somewhere cheap with a lot of tournaments like the Spanish countryside, Serbia, etc.
After some other tier list videos I have the feeling Preuss is there just to make the role of contrarian.
Books compared to courses
Several times I have done both the book and its course.
The book does a better job of teaching me the concepts, and going over the material over the board has incredible value. But then buying that same book as a Chessable, course also has value… As repetition builds memory.
Mayhem in the Morra is at LEAST A tier.
It’s an Asian grading scale. I’m not sure F isn’t supposed to be included though
I really love David. I didnt think i was a commie but maybe i am. The chess set discourse was incredible.
Does the best money spent on chess include buying a title at those sandbag invitation only tournaments for youngsters? Ask GM Sergey Karjaken?!
Karjaken regardless of how you feel about him or his views personally is and has been a world class top elite player for some time now. He was one of the strongest youths in his generation. One the best coached players in the world too.
All top players go to invite only tournaments..
@@ShawnChess No doubt, but I think the consensus, backed by reasonable speculation, is Karjaken got the "world's youngest GM" title by playing at an inaccurate Elo (sandbag) tournament where the older players did not play to their potential. Still I would like to see him play today, tho he says he's semi-retired.
Sorry for filling up the comments section, but I couldn't resist ... who remembers NICbase software?
I watch a lot of Dojo youtube videos. I guess I have to stop that, given that free content i C-tier.
Haha 😂
19:40 No, you don't have to play tournaments to improve. You can play rated club games.
I also play rated club games in Europe, I guess in USA this is less common and people have to drive a big distance to play rated games?
Yeah I guess, if they don't live near a big city.@@KeepChessSimple
How much money to get coached by Jesse?
Ask Jesse. The other thing this list is 'biased' since they are rating performance as in "bang for the buck". So a private coach may be relatively low on the list since you spend a lot of money (the denominator is large) compared to reading a library book on chess, but, it might actually give you the best performance. My performance jumped by about 300 points (I'm 2100 on LiChess blitz) when I hired a coach long term and trained with them in person. It was not cheap but it was effective.
When cochess com existed 2 years ago it was 285/hr
@@raylopez99 . I hit 2300 lichess within 5 years and no coach. I'm a casual player as I work full time but I have no problem using free online resources or reading a good hard copy book that cost $20-$30. With a coach and proper effort I suspect I would be at least 2400-2500 lichess by now.
I don't see how any of these listed from the get-go can be a "D"
S-tier: Wifi bill
Jesse outdoing himself with the Luddite self-parody by ranking wooden pieces #1. 😘
So... an online programs company recommands as a A-tier to choose... online programs? Red thumb.
Would be strange not to believe in our own thing!
Lichess and TH-cam are free and world class - don’t even understand how this is controversial.
the s is based on japanese grading systems
Tournaments and chess clubs need to be in S-tier simply because if you're not playing at a sanctioned club as an amateur or in tournaments as a titled player then what are you doing spending money on chess? To get real life experience you need to play OTB and that means either clubs or tournaments. Chesscom A-tier??? Give me a break! Lichess does everything better and its 100% free. A nice chess set is a novelty and has no better impact on chess learning than a tournament set - D-tier. Some books also belong in S-tier as there is very little out there with more value for the money than a well written chess book.
I agree. Their list is completely moronic.
Unless you're trying to turn chess into your job I don't really see what it matters whether you're spending money trying to improve online or OTB. It's all "wasted".
While I personally prefer playing seriously OTB to playing seriously online at the end of the day I'm not laboring under the illusion that the way I'm doing it is somehow more noble. I'm doing it as a hobby, to challenge myself, to try to improve my rating, for the community. All those things can be achieved online, too. It's not like my USCF rating is any less arbitrary than my lichess rating. Also I'm someone lucky enough to live in an area with a relatively good local chess scene- not everyone has that opportunity. Just because someone lives in the boonies my attempts at improvement aren't more worthy than theirs.
Funny how you can get almost all that for free on the web
New in chess awesome A teir, Chesslife junk f tier.
I can give u any chessable course for 1$ with videos half part of course in advance
This is a shameless promotion for chess-dojo program. Even FREE chess stuff is bad accordingly to BOSS. If you do your homework properly you can do a lotof stufffor free that is on par with paid: Lichess, even free dojo stuff on youtube , free chessable courses etc. Somehow accordingly to BOSS a book that was put on chessable and now have interactive exercises is worst than paper one.
Jesse thinks interactive online courses encourage you to passively go through the motions whereas books require active involvement. IMO that's probably true to a point, but you can go through books passively as well. Individual attitude is what really matters. Personally, I frequently analyze positions that come up in courses. I try to understand moves, not just memorize them. Using interactive courses this way makes them better than books, quicker, more efficient, and the sites I use have the particular advantage of smart spaced repetition.
Online training was an obvious topic to cover, and not mentioning the Dojo would have been odd. I thought they were quite modest about doing it, and David also gave a big endorsement of Killer Chess Training. It didn't seem like an attempt at promotion at all.
It wasn’t intended as promotion. It was an interesting topic, and our program happens to fall within the discussion. Obviously we are biased in favor of our program- if we didn’t think it was good, we wouldn’t offer it, or we would be working super hard to fix it, and would honestly warn people it wasn’t great yet. So take the rating of our own program with a grain of salt obviously coming from us, and focus on all the other elements discussed.
Lost it at the communist bit 🤣
Hmmm..... "imporTanT" "wriTen"...ooookaaaayyy
Christ, Jesse is obnoxious.