Ian is quite a character. Even if you were not interested in firearms, you could enjoy just listening to him. He has a dry humor that comes out every once in a while. Thanks for the great videos. I love the firearms history.
As much as I enjoy rifles with rotary action involved in some way, I equally enjoy learning about any device with interrupted threads used on a part of major function.
You know I'm really grateful you upgraded to Higher definition cameras in these moments when my internet decides it won't load the video in anything higher than 240p. Thanks Sprint.
Very interesting Ian. One can see the beginning of the later bolt action systems. These technologies must have really seemed incredibly advanced at the time by those who had them,and they were. Good job as always.
Great & exquistitely interesting, as always. I cannot count the coffe breaks that would've been awfully boring without "Forgotten Weapons" and the inavitable "I'm Ian" which everybody echoes who watches the vid with me (and I do too). you got a small but hardcore fanbase here in northern germany, sir ;)
Love the civil war guns with innovations as gun builders tried every new idea. Thanks for the wonderful videos of these firearms we otherwise would not see.
That rifle is quite beautiful. If you look at it and think about it, that rifle has tech we still use today. The bolt has some features later bolts still have, the trigger take down, and the locking lugs even though in the rear are way advanced for 1863. Too bad it did not see service, firearms tech may have been advanced quite a bit by this rifle. It is an engineering wonder considering the time it was produced. Thanks for the video!
absolutely loving all the episodes originating from RIA. this is one of the most interesting uploads to date. Thank you for doing what you do. Canadian fan.
This rifle gives me an odd impression of primitiveness. Even more than many of the older muzzle loading arms you've showcased. I think it's because it's so absurdly simple, almost crude. "How do we get the hammer to hit the rim?" "I dunno...lop the corner of the bolt off so it can get in there?" "Brilliant, lets go to lunch."
It's also because you're seeing a 150 years old gun whose wood and metal aged and people probably played with it. The technology required to produce a reliable breech-loader back in the mid 19th century was high-tech.
And yet its extremelty advanced in a sense. The action looks strong enough to work with smokeless power. The bolt removal doesn't involve any screws! Add a magazine and you'd have a great little rifle.
@@keithlarsen7557 Yeah, I think was a huge mistake that the US military didn't develop their bolt action guns sooner, sticking to trapdoors and lever guns for way to long.
I saw a Greene bolt action breechloader at the Gettysburg museum. I had read that 900 or so were purchased by the Union Army. They had an underhammer firing mechanism, in that the hammer was mounted underneath the gun and when the rifle was fired the hammer struck upward. Pretty interesting and unusual. There was reportedly some ammunition of the type that was used in the Greene found at Antietam, which appeared to indicate that the model did see some battle service with Massachusetts troops. That's what I came across online anyway, but I haven't been able to turn up much more about their use in combat, if any.
One other crucial factor about the Civil War era is that mechanized industry was beginning to take off, meaning it was finally possible to produce complicated, new, and, in many cases, unproven designs and innovations in mass quantities. I've seen a lot of your videos pertaining to this time period and most of them have at least a couple hundred completed pieces floating around out in the world. Compare that to the Ferguson rifle of the American Revolution, in which less than one hundred (?) were produced and distributed among one or two rifle companies.
Beginning to? Read up on the Crimean War! In the Civil War millions of rifle-muskets and revolvers were being built in factories. I wouldn't say it's the start. Civil War was the start of many things, that that predates it.
@@SStupendous By less than a decade; I'd say that's close enough to count as the same era, though the name you give it probably depends on who you ask. For Americans, it's the Civil War Era; British, Russians, Crimeans, French, and Turkish, it's the Crimean War Era; etc. Just because, weren't rifled-muskets more common on the British/French side of the war, while Russia's main weapon was still smoothbore muskets?
@@terrorcop101 I'd not put the wars in the same era, though you can argue they are, depending on WHAT era. The 1860s is part of the Second Industrial Revolution, an era the 1850s is not. both are part of the "Mid-19th Century", and both are in the Second half of the 19th Century. ALL depends on specific "eras" we're talking about. The Crimean War isn't part of the Civil War because nothing in 1853 is during the Civil War - unless you mean the Antebellum, going far further back than that. I mean to generalize eras like that, would you say something happening in 1954 is "WW2 era"? Just sounds uneducated. Answering your question on the Crimean War, that is correct. Yes. Back to my original point you could even go to the extent of calling the Napoleonic Wars "industrial", as it's more than true that many, many guns were being created by factory works en masse.
Looking at the cut in the bolt for that peg above the trigger, it also looks like the trigger can't be pulled with the bolt installed until it's locked into battery.
The sheer number of weapons in service in the Civil War is mind boggling. While I can certainly understand the superiority of many breachloading designs and I know many used the 56-50 supply in the Civil War must have still been a logistical nightmare.
Sometimes you get the feeling that these fellows kinda made up things off the top of their heads and flung it at the market to see If It would stick! Beautiful odd balls of gun design!
The cartridge used about 45-50 grains of black powder ; so even though it was .50 caliber, it wasn't all that powerful ..but it did make big holes none the less.
Every military firearm had it's "Manual of Arms" on how to load and fire it. It would be interesting to see it performed in the operation of this carbine. My guess is know one had time to invent one.
Another reason for the many inventions during that time is the well working patent system in the US. Each new manufacturer had to find his own tecchnical solution.
Arno Schmidt While that's true to a certain extent, the history of US firearms manufacturing, particularly in the 1800s, is rife with patent and copyright violations.
Ian, other than being a skilled machinest and gunsmith, how did you amass such an in-depth knowledge of unusual and antique firearms? I really enjoy your videos, informative and fascinating.
Ian , i'm an ex British Soldier could you please do a video on the SLR rifle ? This was the British version of the Fn FAL and was by far the best version of the FAL that was ever made .
Very interesting design. They were so very close to an almost modern bolt. If they would have seen the wisdom of a firing pin and the relatively simple alterations to get it there they could have changed history. Anyway, thanks again Ian. I love seeing how guns work and you really deliver the goods.
Are both screws stock on the sling attach point? They are different sizes, and apparently different material. Watching your videos is a highlight of my day! But then I am 67 and retired so I'm easily amused. Kidding aside, I appreciate you wide knowledge of these obscure weapons.
@@ForgottenWeapons .22 short if you can get it. Plus there are some specialty companies manufacturing rare or obsolete cartridges. Hard to find most sizes but some can be had. A popular solution is to rechamber the rifle with a barrel sleeve then add a centerfire firing pin, though how you would with one of those rifles would be interesting
So this would be used with dragoon type cavalry, riding into battle, dismounting and fighting? Why did they never consider giving the infantry a weapon of this type?
That was an interesting design. My question is if the U.S. wanted more rifles then why didn't they just get more spencer rifles instead of these other designs using the spencer cartridge?
vlaricshard2 You may be right. I have to admit my knowledge on this subject during the civil war is lacking. I have learned quite a lot watching Ian describe these firearms. Thanks for your reply.
With .45-70 you are correct, but the Spencer cartridges (56-56, 56-52, 56-50) are named by the base diameter (.56 inch) and neck diameter (.50, .52, and .56 inch).
"adopted by the US military" but you said that they were sold. Were all 1000 sold shortly after the war, or did some soldiers get their hands on it in case of a Confederate Rebellion?
Simple enough. I bet it could be scaled down to .22, ha. That would be fun. You know, maybe I should retool my shop to make such weapons. I mean, I want them all after all. Might be easier to just make them from scratch.
Jesse Sisolack in .22 LR? Yeah, you probably could. you could even buy off the shelf hammer mechanisms and modify them (or the design) just a bit and have something quite nice.
Not every unit. The Spencer was only issued to certain cavalry units. Others had sharps carbine, and some had the Burnside carbine. During the civil war a lot of companies were individual militia units privately started. And in those cases the units were expected to provide it's own weapons and ammunition. It wasn't as standardized as today. The government needed firearms, period and what they could get into the hands of the troops quickly.
Alex Krasikow It's a pretty sweet deal for all involved, really: Ian gets access to a lot of rare and interesting firearms, RIA gets his stellar presentation and expertise, and we all get to enjoy a great video about an interesting firearm we might otherwise never see. :)
Ian is quite a character.
Even if you were not interested in firearms, you could enjoy just listening to him.
He has a dry humor that comes out every once in a while.
Thanks for the great videos. I love the firearms history.
As much as I enjoy rifles with rotary action involved in some way, I equally enjoy learning about any device with interrupted threads used on a part of major function.
You know I'm really grateful you upgraded to Higher definition cameras in these moments when my internet decides it won't load the video in anything higher than 240p. Thanks Sprint.
This is actually really pretty awesome. Seems to be quite sturdy and reliable for that era.
Very interesting Ian. One can see the beginning of the later bolt action systems. These technologies must have really seemed incredibly advanced at the time by those who had them,and they were. Good job as always.
Great & exquistitely interesting, as always. I cannot count the coffe breaks that would've been awfully boring without "Forgotten Weapons" and the inavitable "I'm Ian" which everybody echoes who watches the vid with me (and I do too).
you got a small but hardcore fanbase here in northern germany, sir ;)
Omnihil777 And in England, too!
Love the civil war guns with innovations as gun builders tried every new idea. Thanks for the wonderful videos of these firearms we otherwise would not see.
That rifle is quite beautiful. If you look at it and think about it, that rifle has tech we still use today. The bolt has some features later bolts still have, the trigger take down, and the locking lugs even though in the rear are way advanced for 1863. Too bad it did not see service, firearms tech may have been advanced quite a bit by this rifle. It is an engineering wonder considering the time it was produced. Thanks for the video!
I'm going to where that rifle was manufactured tomorrow. It is now a museum.
absolutely loving all the episodes originating from RIA. this is one of the most interesting uploads to date. Thank you for doing what you do.
Canadian fan.
eariamjh71 Glad you enjoy them!
It would be really cool to reproduce a scaled down version of this in .22
I was just thinking the same thing
+Lincoln Runyan Yes that would be awes, does anybody shoot these now as is?
I think it could be sold in its original caliber.
does anyone know where this style bullet can be reproduced. I have the gun, but with only ONE bullet left.
Try eBay and Amazon
Such a simple mechanism. Thanks or sharing this with us.
Seems like a well-thought out weapon that just came at the wrong time. Interesting design.
I been watching these videos for years.... Not sure how I missed this one.... This thing is quite interesting!.....
This rifle gives me an odd impression of primitiveness. Even more than many of the older muzzle loading arms you've showcased. I think it's because it's so absurdly simple, almost crude.
"How do we get the hammer to hit the rim?"
"I dunno...lop the corner of the bolt off so it can get in there?"
"Brilliant, lets go to lunch."
If you take the time, most simple things are very well made, and it sometimes takes hard thought to make something that's simple and works well.
I think they used the hammer because that's what most people knew at the time
It's also because you're seeing a 150 years old gun whose wood and metal aged and people probably played with it. The technology required to produce a reliable breech-loader back in the mid 19th century was high-tech.
And yet its extremelty advanced in a sense. The action looks strong enough to work with smokeless power. The bolt removal doesn't involve any screws! Add a magazine and you'd have a great little rifle.
@@keithlarsen7557 Yeah, I think was a huge mistake that the US military didn't develop their bolt action guns sooner, sticking to trapdoors and lever guns for way to long.
Really like the old and odd carbines.
I saw a Greene bolt action breechloader at the Gettysburg museum. I had read that 900 or so were purchased by the Union Army. They had an underhammer firing mechanism, in that the hammer was mounted underneath the gun and when the rifle was fired the hammer struck upward. Pretty interesting and unusual. There was reportedly some ammunition of the type that was used in the Greene found at Antietam, which appeared to indicate that the model did see some battle service with Massachusetts troops. That's what I came across online anyway, but I haven't been able to turn up much more about their use in combat, if any.
You have one of the most awesome job!
One other crucial factor about the Civil War era is that mechanized industry was beginning to take off, meaning it was finally possible to produce complicated, new, and, in many cases, unproven designs and innovations in mass quantities. I've seen a lot of your videos pertaining to this time period and most of them have at least a couple hundred completed pieces floating around out in the world. Compare that to the Ferguson rifle of the American Revolution, in which less than one hundred (?) were produced and distributed among one or two rifle companies.
Beginning to? Read up on the Crimean War! In the Civil War millions of rifle-muskets and revolvers were being built in factories. I wouldn't say it's the start. Civil War was the start of many things, that that predates it.
@@SStupendous By less than a decade; I'd say that's close enough to count as the same era, though the name you give it probably depends on who you ask. For Americans, it's the Civil War Era; British, Russians, Crimeans, French, and Turkish, it's the Crimean War Era; etc. Just because, weren't rifled-muskets more common on the British/French side of the war, while Russia's main weapon was still smoothbore muskets?
@@terrorcop101 I'd not put the wars in the same era, though you can argue they are, depending on WHAT era. The 1860s is part of the Second Industrial Revolution, an era the 1850s is not. both are part of the "Mid-19th Century", and both are in the Second half of the 19th Century. ALL depends on specific "eras" we're talking about. The Crimean War isn't part of the Civil War because nothing in 1853 is during the Civil War - unless you mean the Antebellum, going far further back than that. I mean to generalize eras like that, would you say something happening in 1954 is "WW2 era"? Just sounds uneducated.
Answering your question on the Crimean War, that is correct. Yes.
Back to my original point you could even go to the extent of calling the Napoleonic Wars "industrial", as it's more than true that many, many guns were being created by factory works en masse.
@@SStupendous Point taken.
@@terrorcop101 Glad you understood what I meant.
Looking at the cut in the bolt for that peg above the trigger, it also looks like the trigger can't be pulled with the bolt installed until it's locked into battery.
Wax Pragmatic And it looks like the bolt can't be rotated until the hammer is at least partially cocked and the trigger resets.
Best youtube channel.
sir you find the rarest craziest guns ive ever seen i enjoy all these videos
The sheer number of weapons in service in the Civil War is mind boggling. While I can certainly understand the superiority of many breachloading designs and I know many used the 56-50 supply in the Civil War must have still been a logistical nightmare.
Very advanced design for its time
It looks as though he maybe got the inspiration for the locking from a breach loading artillery piece with those interrupted threads
The bolt locking mechanism appears to be a variation of the Welin breech block (interrupted screw). Very cool.
I really wanna attempt to build this with a Spencer style of tubular magazine
Makes two of us
An advanced bolt and yet, its a hammer fired rimfire rifle.
Sometimes you get the feeling that these fellows kinda made up things off the top of their heads and flung it at the market to see
If It would stick! Beautiful odd balls of gun design!
Rim-fire, hammer fired and bolt action. Cool.
Daddy this is so cool video Palmer firearms work
A rifle that small fires a 50 caliber bullet? Not going to lie, that alone is impressive.
The cartridge used about 45-50 grains of black powder ; so even though it was .50 caliber, it wasn't all that powerful ..but it did make big holes none the less.
Every military firearm had it's "Manual of Arms" on how to load and fire it. It would be interesting to see it performed in the operation of this carbine. My guess is know one had time to invent one.
very cool if a repro were made in .22lr , I would buy one !!! :-)
Fascinating rifle!!
Seems likely that once they were sold off as surplus some Palmers would have been subsequently carried out West.
Another reason for the many inventions during that time is the well working patent system in the US. Each new manufacturer had to find his own tecchnical solution.
Arno Schmidt While that's true to a certain extent, the history of US firearms manufacturing, particularly in the 1800s, is rife with patent and copyright violations.
Ian, you're going to need to have someone make you a 56-50 dummy round so you can show the action cycling of you keep looking at these civil war guns.
Wow that is a nice design
I find it funny that hunting rifles are beginning to get external hammer cocking again
Ian, other than being a skilled machinest and gunsmith, how did you amass such an in-depth knowledge of unusual and antique firearms? I really enjoy your videos, informative and fascinating.
Ian , i'm an ex British Soldier could you please do a video on the SLR rifle ? This was the British version of the Fn FAL and was by far the best version of the FAL that was ever made .
Very interesting design. They were so very close to an almost modern bolt. If they would have seen the wisdom of a firing pin and the relatively simple alterations to get it there they could have changed history. Anyway, thanks again Ian. I love seeing how guns work and you really deliver the goods.
Would you say that this is one of the earliest examples of a "modern" extractor?
(With modern I mean the type that is the common these days.)
Very interesting rifle!
Are both screws stock on the sling attach point? They are different sizes, and apparently different material.
Watching your videos is a highlight of my day! But then I am 67 and retired so I'm easily amused.
Kidding aside, I appreciate you wide knowledge of these obscure weapons.
Wait, so wouldn't the hammer be a striker, as there's no firing pin
I'd like to try firing this one at that 300 yard range on the rear sight. The 500 yard was probably stretching your luck.
Part of me wants to build and upgrade these rifles for example I can see this specific rifle with a tube magazine
i feel like i could make this in my garage, so simple.
I hope that he gets his hands on a Welrod or on a Vintorez at some point
are there any rim-firing cartridges selling anywhere in the modern days?
Yes, the .22LR. Also the .22 Magnum, .17 HMR, and .17 Mach II.
@@ForgottenWeapons .22 short if you can get it. Plus there are some specialty companies manufacturing rare or obsolete cartridges. Hard to find most sizes but some can be had. A popular solution is to rechamber the rifle with a barrel sleeve then add a centerfire firing pin, though how you would with one of those rifles would be interesting
So this would be used with dragoon type cavalry, riding into battle, dismounting and fighting? Why did they never consider giving the infantry a weapon of this type?
what a strange weapon!
That was an interesting design. My question is if the U.S. wanted more rifles then why didn't they just get more spencer rifles instead of these other designs using the spencer cartridge?
TryNsurviveN sheer manufacturing inability
vlaricshard2 You may be right. I have to admit my knowledge on this subject during the civil war is lacking. I have learned quite a lot watching Ian describe these firearms. Thanks for your reply.
TryNsurviveN
A lot of independent firearms makers didn't want to make other people's designs.
The term 56/50 means, a .56 caliber bullet on 50 grains of powder. I.E. the 45-70, is a .45 caliber bullet on 70 grains of powder.
With .45-70 you are correct, but the Spencer cartridges (56-56, 56-52, 56-50) are named by the base diameter (.56 inch) and neck diameter (.50, .52, and .56 inch).
I'm on headphones and sound is only coming out of the left side.
Jeffery Liggett using a headset. and it is working alright. must be you
Blue Mech same as blue, must be you
It's only this video for me, weird.
Jeffery Liggett Your headphones are broke then mine work fine
Jeffery Liggett I've had the same problem with the Forgotten Weapons videos for about a month, it drives me crazy
"adopted by the US military" but you said that they were sold. Were all 1000 sold shortly after the war, or did some soldiers get their hands on it in case of a Confederate Rebellion?
finalfantasy50 They were adopted by the US military. They officially entered service. They just were not used by the US military.
Simple enough. I bet it could be scaled down to .22, ha. That would be fun. You know, maybe I should retool my shop to make such weapons. I mean, I want them all after all. Might be easier to just make them from scratch.
Jesse Sisolack in .22 LR? Yeah, you probably could. you could even buy off the shelf hammer mechanisms and modify them (or the design) just a bit and have something quite nice.
Why would they need this thing, when they already had the Spencer?
Not every unit. The Spencer was only issued to certain cavalry units. Others had sharps carbine, and some had the Burnside carbine. During the civil war a lot of companies were individual militia units privately started. And in those cases the units were expected to provide it's own weapons and ammunition. It wasn't as standardized as today. The government needed firearms, period and what they could get into the hands of the troops quickly.
Nice
Not a half bad design for the time.
So, in a sense I suppose you could say this is the first bolt action rifle accepted by the United States government.
Not just in a sense, but it IS. (Following the Greene rifle in 1862)
That display case is full of Lugers.🤤
Terry and Calisher vibes anyone?
the Paul McCartney
Emerson, Lake and Palmer.
In Great Britain, the surname 'Palmer' is pronounced 'Parmer'.
Seems fairly advanced for the time, compared to something like the needle gun.
if it were in 45-70.... na....
I actually own one of these :3
Seems like you could have a serious out of battery detonation by letting the hammer fall while the bolt is back. Am I seeing this right?
Did you get a permanent job at the RIA? It's the only thing you do these days...
Alex Krasikow Nope, I just like to take best advantage of a good opportunity.
Alex Krasikow It's a pretty sweet deal for all involved, really: Ian gets access to a lot of rare and interesting firearms, RIA gets his stellar presentation and expertise, and we all get to enjoy a great video about an interesting firearm we might otherwise never see. :)
wouldn't this be pre-mauser? seems like they would have copied the ideas from this for the Gewehr 71.
What does 'M.M.' in the government stamp stand for?
No entiendo una mierda.ET.
*car-bean*