The REAL Heroes of the M1 Carbine - not "Carbine" Williams
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The Hollywood-spawned mythos of the M1 Carbine is that it was created by David Marshall "Carbine" Williams. The reality is far different. In real life, Williams was talented, but short-tempered, stubborn, and unable to work effectively as part of a team - and a cohesive, cooperative team is what the M1 Carbine required.
While Williams was off sulking about how the work was being done wrong, a team of Winchester machinists and engineers including William Roemer and Fred Humiston were actually making it happen.
The most impressive anecdote of the whole story, to me, is from when the solitary Winchester prototype broke its bolt in the middle of the final testing. Fred Humiston was representing Winchester at the trials, and he was told that if he could provide a new bolt within 24 hours the gun could continue the trials - but he could not take the gun off the testing ground. So Humiston went back to the Winchester shop and made a new bolt from memory (no drawings yet existed for the gun) and without being able to test-fit it in the gun. When he returned the next day, his new bolt dropped in perfectly, and the gun went on to win the trials. That is an epic feat of skill, and it is really a shame that he does not get more recognition for it.
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"Williams, you're off the project."
"Fine! I'll go build my own carbine! With blackjack! And hookers!"
Thank you Bender. I believe in you!
"Fine! You can bite my shiny metal ass too!"
I appreciate this reference so much.
In fact, forget the carbine
Ahh screw the whole thing.
This reminds me a bit of that "local boy saves nation" with the owen smg. Where everyone remembers it for having this mythological creation. When the real heros were the ones who spent all their time figuring out how to make the design work by a deadline.
I like the tension in this story alot more though.
That is a fantastic analogy.
The real heros were the guys that carried it into battle in the field.
@@tarmaque Not really an analogy...more like a second happening of the same type of event.
Rob...sorry. Mr. Williams was a hindrance to the program and did NOT invent the M1 carbine.
Cutting a bolt from memory. Free handing a gas port.... I would show this to a CAD buddy of mine... but he might not survive the video
Some sacrifices must be made....
You mean "Cad Monkey", right?
@@BadWolf762 People who have never touched a actual file.
Lol if only you knew how good an experienced machinist is. I worked with plenty of guys that can eyeball plus minus .002. Must cnc programmers start out on manual machines. By the way machinist is different than operator.
Great story and very educational.
“He’s not a team player, short tempered and difficult to work with”.
I really want to have beers with this guy, sounds like basically everyone in InfoSec.
Are they all convicted of murders too?
LOL
@@billbolton Convicted?
Not so far. ;)
Sounds much like a "rockstar programmer" as well; not someone you ever want in your development team. I'd take an average developer who is a team player over a brilliant prima donna anyday.
Rather have a classic scotch or French 75 with him.
That’s what I like about this channel. Interesting stories about the people behind the guns.
I have met people like Humeston. Amazingly talented people.
Interestingly when people talk about why they cannot build engines like they used on the Saturn rockets it's because they had people like him building them. It's not that we cannot build those engines any more, it's because when they left the knowledge of how they were built went with them.
Every single part of those engines had to be tweaked and massaged into place, and there just isn't that much fabrication expertise left. We can 3D-print and CNC an engine to exacting specifications, but that requires the design to be correspondingly accurate, and they didn't have that back then.
Punctuation could make your statement easier to understand.
The rockets we build now are built to far more exacting specifications than the old Saturn rockets, with far lighter AND fewer materials, extremely tight safety factors, and much greater repeatability in the manufacturing process. It isn't that we can't build Saturns anymore, it's that we don't have to. It isn't that the ability disappeared with the passing of the great machinists, it's that the technology and manufacturing techniques have advanced so much we've long passed the need for them. If the need was still there all technical schools would still be teaching those skills at advanced levels today and we'd still be churning them out. The simple fact is that those skills are no longer marketable in the age of micro-precision CNC machines and fully-computerized design. Automation killed the great machinists.
Basically you're just repeating the Damascus steel myth. Nobody knows how to make true Damascus steel anymore because today all we need is the ASME Carbon Steel Handbook.
@@andrewsuryali8540 there isn't any point in speaking with people that perpetuate, "dont make em like they use tah". Just let them believe what they want, because their opinion doesn't change reality.
@Terminal Boy Agreed. Being self-sufficient is important to a nation, but of no importance to international capital. For them, maximum profit and minimum expenses are the only things that matter and thus we get stuff like exported industries and chronic unemployment back home.
When a million years ago i served in the Italian Carabinieri, we were using M1s as public order batons (!!!).
My heart was bleeding evrey time I had to use such a superb piece of kit just to use as a baton, I asked if I could keep one, but they laughed in my face:-)
I hope you make more of these type of videos, the kind of "Christmas miracle" stories. I really enjoyed this one.
The M1 carbine is my favorite US surplus gun. It also handles well and is easy to shoot.
As a machinist with a lot of prototyping experience I totally get this. When you're on a job like this your mind is constantly working out the problems and figuring out the math, and I can see how he remembered the specs for the bolt.
It's a machinist thing, and the best seem to have ADD and COD while their mind is working the problems.
Great video! Having been a tool and die designer and manufacturing engineer for the better part of 40 years this truly is an amazing story of the development of this iconic project.
I was lucky enough to be part of the development of the M60 E3 feeding mechanism as a vendor for Saco Defense, now known as General Dynamics Armament Division.
The original M60 design was as you know was a proven weapon that for the better part of at the time of the early 1980’s had been in service for almost 25 years.
When the E3 lightweight design was proposed there were many aspects the were looked at to remove weight from the gun.
One of which was the feeding mechanism.
So having been through this first hand in seeing the mistakes that were made in that project makes the M1 carbine prototype and trial performance all the more amazing that it was accomplished in that time frame from essentially one man’s recollection and skill all the more astonishing.
Thank you Ian for your sharing this with your great insight and flair.
I have 2 books on the M1 Carbine. First is U.S. M1 Carbines, Wartime Production by Craig Riesch and the other is M1 Carbine Carbine Owner's Guide by Larry L Ruth with Scott A Duff.
The enthusiasm you put into your stories is infectious.
Hahaha... sounds like one day every six months as a Machinist here in Switzerland. Boss comes running in "we need something. It's gotta be Perfect, we have only one piece of material, we need it yesterday and it's gotta be cheap" XD
Cheap? In Switzerland?
@@terry7907 cheap to produce. The selling price will be high of course. All hail to the profit margin 😉
I've noticed that with each subsequent generation following WW2, there is more more reliance on (for a lack of a better term) external memory and calculation devices such as notepads, iPads, etc., such that many young people today think it astounding that older generations can remember things like phone numbers of all their friends and relatives, recipes from an entire cookbook without having to look it up, or multiple place arithmetic calculations. Both of my grandparents never went to college, but could do 3 or more place multiplications in their head - not even needing a scratchpad. Then there is me who have to spend nearly an hour trying to find my *&@! car keys because I forgot I left it on the coffee table.
I love how deep you get into the history of these guns and the people involved! Truly details that have been "forgotten" through time.
Ive done overviews of historic guns on my channel but your attention to detail is unmatched! Thanks
Oh lord, I am a mechanical design engineer and I unfortunately see myself in Williams, not the sulk but the deliberation to get a design right. Search for perfection but if you can't find it commit to the best design in hand. As for the machinist that built the carbine from the internal design in his head, damm, that is fantastic. I can't do that, I can design it and make a drawing then build it. No where near as good as a toolmaker machinist. You putting him up as the real hero of the initial design is spot on.
This reminds me so much about Harold Turpin and his role in development of the Sten SMG. Turpin was a draftsmen too.
Thank you Ian. I enjoyed geeking out along with you as a former Master Technician. More please.
A back story to this that its only 60 miles from New Haven to Springfield and for over a hundred years the majority of guns were made in what could be called Gun Valley. Generations have worked in the technology often starting as kids, resulting in many very clever gunsmiths. Also, the area has a lot of firearms museums worth a visit.
Damn impressive to make it from memory and it work perfectly
I was/am somewhat an amateur machinist. The house I grew up in had a small lathe in the basement I could play with and make model cannons that actually fired etc. The point is I kind of have an idea as to what's involved in turning out a rifle bolt and the tale you just told is amazing. The gentleman must of been the Merlin of Machinists. To have it work first time is incredible. A bolt action ok but an automatic is a totally different kettle of fish so to speak. It has so many facets that need to come together perfectly its really impossible to put into words what was accomplished. Divine intervention?
Thanks again for another entertaining and educational post.
That is an epic story of “getting it done” and “failure is not an option”
Imagine the trepidation of Fred the machinists on the first trigger pull of the replacement bolt?!
Well done
That bit about the broken bolt would make a good TV Mini-series. Have you pitched it to anyone yet?
Much as I love the regular videos this sort of thing is what I aadore - details about specifics, debunking myths and both eduacational and informative, as ever. Oh and in pretty much any form of engineering the assumption is that if it goes right first time you've missed something important and it's going to go hideously wrong at a random point in the future. Much like it is almost impossible to reassemble something and not have screws left over (I swear the things breed when you aren't looking!)
Amazing story. Would be really interesting in hearing about the other carbine submissions to these trials.
I have that book and have read it several times. It is such a good read along with Col. Jeff Copper's books. I have read a few of them and they are really good. I love his life story. He is a real man. Someone that every kid should want to be fit they don't want to be like thier dad's. With the missing dad's out there I usually let them borrow his books that I have. War baby is the best book on the M1 carbine ever wrote. It inspired me to start building all the different manufacturers of the M1 carbine's. I even had a M2 but I got tired of paying the tax stamp on a firearm that I don't shoot. I'm glad I sold it because I couldn't get the FFL for the firearms. It's Illinois I should have known better. I can't even get a SBR or a. Can for any of my firearms. We are looking into Kentucky, Tennessee or Missouri. The only thing I am worried about tornadoes. I always wanted a Atlas tornado shelters. They have some nice shelters. So far they make the highest quality shelters. I'm still locking. Dose anyone have a suggestion on a company that makes a guy's shelter? Please leave a comment. I'm very interested in what you think positive or negative. I take all criticism constructively. Ian I love your channel and the research you put into your videos. I have taken a break from my channel to upgrade my equipment and to restructure the way I make my videos.it cost a lot of money and I am thinking about a patreon account . I have already set it up but I haven't activated it yet. I don't know why I haven't. I don't want to beg money from my subs but I have spent $6,000 on equipment not counting firearms. The reloading equipment and lightning and camera's and all the silly attachments for the camera and the lenses. It's starting to get silly. If I knew it would have cost this much I would have never started. Now that I have invested the money I have to follow through. Learning the video editing software is a pain in the butt. Now I need the firearms. I want a K-98, a ppsh43c and a P-38 for now. They are the most recommend firearms that my viewers want to see. That's probably another $2,000. I do have a sponsor but I refused free powder and primers. I told them I get them for free basically. After I smelt the lead into ingots then I take the jackets and I melt them down and make 3 lbs ingots of copper and I weigh them and stamp the weight on them with my TH-cam channel name and then I sell them. I get the best price for them because they are in ingots. I always go to the same place and they pay me well. I use that money to buy my powder, primers, cases and the small things I need to reload or fix a firearm. Now my sponsor will tell me when they are getting anything on my list and they give me first pick. They have given my chamber flags and a super deluxe cleaning kit. Well thanks for the great video. Happy Shooting.
Hi thank you for this incredible video. I’ve been told that a descendent of our family, my name is Michael Humeston spelled with an E recently changed in lineage due to grandfather BC error, was a strong player in the design of the m1 carbine. Till now, all I know of him is from Wikipedia, where he’s mentioned as one of the designers. Otherwise, all I could find was everything about carbine Williams, and not a single photo of Fred Humiston. Any further information is greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Mike
Love my Fulton Armory M1 even more after hearing this story!
No worries... we got whole weekend, to test and fix a brand new prototype we've never fired before, it's fine!
*telephone calls*
Uhhh guys, turns out we only got Saturday.
...
A clip fed M1 Carbine would have been terrible now that I think about it...
The idea that the M1 Garand actually works with a clip… I just can’t understand how that gun is so “amazing”
@@Swat_Dennis gotta put yourself in the time. They're coming from a bolt action rifle that's doctrine, and all of a sudden you can rock and roll the gun empty in the time most recruits can cycle the bolt twice. Stripper clip be damned that's firepower.
@@Hawk1966 It's not a stripper clip, that's why it's looked on fondly.
Hard to imagine an en bloc clip the size of a metchbox and a tiny very high pitched "thiiing" when expelled.
In a way, it would be ridiculously funny, and tragically impractical.
The Garand is an absolutely amazing rifle. It's a full power cartridge without worrying about the stripper clip or needing to be really proficient with reloading. You'd get a good idea of how great the rifle is if you actually shoot one compared to a bolt action.
Humeston's memory must have like a knife's edge to remember all that.
Awesome story and great job telling it! So nice to hear these more "boots on the ground" narratives that really illustrate the more mundane and nuanced details that often get overlooked from the more highfalutin but ultimately more seductive stories. I think this dichotomy can be applied to almost any aspect in life. To go off on a tangent I think once this pandemic is solved similar stories of "the true unsung heroes" will start to trickle out against the popular narratives.
Once again great job!
Yes Darin Crose (below comment), I have noticed a steady increase in M1 interest. I almost forgot to mention in my comment below - I just bought an M1 Carbine from Vito two days ago with a custom finish stock which also came with one of his stabilizers! I bought a 1080 round ammo can of .30 carbine, and I can't wait to get to the range!
Dude, give us more videos like this right now!!!
The book on this should be called the many miracles of the M-1 carbine.
As always, a fabulous video. What a great story! Growing up, I saw the "Carbine Williams" movie a few times and throughout my life, have always thought of that movie when ever I have seen an M1 Carbine. Thank you for the real story!
Great work on your videos....
Absolutely enthralling. Rest assured those books are very very high on the reading list as soon as I finish what I'm currently reading on Robin Olds (I'm a retired military pilot - gimme a break!). You are a go to initial source when beginning research on historical firearms. Thanks for all you do.
You do a well researched and fabulous presentation on every firearm I've seen you discuss on your videos! Great work as you are without peer, at least that I'm aware of.
This was a fantastic story... thank you for telling it. I hung on each and every twist and turn.
Fantastic and inspiring story! Coming from a self builder who skills are sub par as well as near zero budget, can certainly appreciate that amazing tale of near miraculous production in less than ideal circumstance.
Thanks for that tear jerking story of never quit on a build, even when it seems impossible. No joke, you got tears outtake me on that one.
Back to work on my project.🥴👍
The passion in the way he tells this story is astounding.
Thanks for the story telling. I inherited a M1-Carbine. The modern term for their development approach is "Agile Development" (kinda sorta)
What a fantastic story! And I equally enjoyed your obvious enthusiasm for the subject. As much as I love firearms, I love history even more. It's these little history lessons you bring us that make your channel so frakking awesome!
Wow, that is just incredible to manufacture a new bolt from memory overnight, just WOW!
This needs to be a movie.
I’m a big fan of the M1 Carbine. They’re lightweight and easy to shoot and just a great little rifle. I don’t know why Winchester didn’t make a commercial version. They could have offered the 30 M1 and the old 35 WSL with a little more traditional stock and I would think it would have sold as the predecessor to the Model 5.
I love this. You should do more "Gun stories" like this. There must be soo much weird stuff like this in history
I think the 'working from memory' is likely a bit of a stretch. This was the prototype design and experimental workshop of the Winchester Repeating Arms Company, not Bob's Garage.There may not have been fully toleranced and annotated prints that had gone through the process of check, revision, approval and release, but there's going to be working sketches, pre-production drawings, that include a datum and critical dimensions, and any marked-up changes. Otherwise, why bother with a draftsman on the team.
What a truly interesting story. Guys like that don`t come along every day. As Ian said the ubiquitous M1 Carbine. Sometimes the simple things are the best.
I mean, without being there it's hard to say. Sometimes you have the engineers who are being too particular, and sometimes you have the bosses waving them off assuming that's how they are being, and assuming they are a nuissance when maybe it is an easier fix than they had imagined.
Perhaps Williams had made a solution to the future problem and it would be brief to implement.
For example recording measurements would help, but only take an extra moment per item.
No question though, what they did was very impressive... provided some of the details haven't been exhagerated.
What a fantastic story. Real life is often much stranger than fiction
William's invented the short-stroke piston and the floating chamber.
Kurt Schlarb actually... there was allready a patent on the short stroke gas piston on file when Williams filled his patent... the patent office didn’t find it.
Winchester however later did ( ooh crap)
This is also covered in the books by Ruth
As a technician who spends my time making engineers projects work on appropriate timelines, I love this.
this story deserves a movie
Nothing short of a miracle along with some brilliant minds. Even if they had more time and blueprints, it would be unusual to pass with so few failures. Amazing story, thanks for sharing.
i saw the title and i instantly new that some keyboard comando out there was gonna get butt hurt. "but williams..."
David Rifle Butt Williams
Please keep feeding me ALL of your M1 carbine knowledge!
He machined a bolt FROM MEMORY !?!?
This is exactly what I was looking for when I saw the other video
I liked the m1 carbine, I converted 2 of them , 1 to 357 mag and the other to 45lc. I still have the 45 but I sold the 357 it was a mistake to sell it.
I grew up in a family of machine tool engineers & in my terms that tale is completely gobsmacking !amazing work, I am in awe...
Wow I love these kinds of videos the real detailed history of these guys who kind of changed how at least the us army expected weapons to be from that point and was one of the main influences for the army having their main battle rifle as a carbine. beautiful!
I think "building it on instinct" is the wrong term. A experienced designer can build this in his head complete with all dimensions and tolerances. You really don't have to draw anything before you build. When you have worked on a gun for a while, you actually remember the dimensions. Time-lines are important, I had a great 9mm in the works for the new US military handgun, but was too late to submit.
If any gun company is reading this I still have a modular handgun system which meets the criteria. :)
Actually in the James Stewart carbine Williams filmed they never show him working on the M1 carbine thay only reference the M1 carbine hanging on the wall and make the statement that he designed the Short Stroke gas system
I wonder how simply a bolt-action carbine could have been achieved. At 5 pounds, it would have been plenty durable and might not have suffered the hiccups and durability issues that M1 carbines had now and again. The weight savings could be directed to strengthening the magazines and their interface with the rifle, along with making sure that the stock was up to snuff. My theory would be that it'd still be pretty good for its intended role, considering the standard armaments of the time, though a semi-auto would be preferred.
Great story, Ian! Thank you for sharing it
SO my take away is that Rene Studler actually did something right. After the M-14/FN-FAL debacle I am not a huge Studler fan.
What an awesome story of a couple of unsung hero's. I did not know any of this. History can sometimes be ironically gruel. And too many times Hollywood shapes our concept of reality. Great post!
Amazing story! Well delivered... thank you sir!
If you get down to Raleigh, you can visit Williams' original workshop and view the scope of his many firearms designs. www.ncmuseumofhistory.org/exhibits/david-marshall-carbine-williams
Never used one, but it's up there for the small arms I'd prefer to use in WWII (up there with the STG-44, among others)
Nice Ian. Lord knows I love mine. Need to drop milspec springs in it though
History of American military industry in WW2 is full of these incredible stories. Check history of Liberty ships construction or new tank factories in Detroit. Pure magic. Only soviets in some extend do the same in WW2.
Stunning story! Always liked the M1 but now I want one even more!
Hi Ian! Do you know if this first cobbled together 1905+Garand prototype, the initial trials carbine, or pictures of them, are still extant?
Fabulous story and very well told. Thank you!!
Hats off to Humiston, that was an amazing feat!
That bolt was a teslan moment
Brilliant story. I have to be honest and say that I'm not a 'gun person' per se but I love this channel and the way that Ian relates the information. I love precision engineering and gun mechanisms are exactly that, the human story behind them just add some spice to the mix. I was in manufacturing for 40 years and I can just imagine the conversations between the different characters involved!
Dammit. Now I want an M-1 carbine even more. $$$
This story is better than many movie plots
Great video, Ian. You are a talented storyteller. I bought a very fine Inland M1 Carbine 15 years ago for Carbine matches at my club. It has been extremely reliable, accurate, and a blast to shoot. New Korean mags work best in my rifle, but original mags I have are less reliable. I have War Baby and War Baby II. Great books. PPU ammo is best in my carbine. Thanks. PS: Ask Karl to quit bashing the M1 carbine :)
Story time with Ian really helps pass the time when you're cooped up all day , night next day , night next day ..........
What a wonderful story. Thanks Ian.
A truly amazing story , I always have had A fondness for the M1 , now I need one .
petition to rename the carbine ian recently got and has shown in the last few videos to Carbine 11.
Rather astounding to say the least.
I love this style of videos.
Thank you , Ian .
So not going to the pub Saturday night.
Good peace of history on carbine
Stop it sir, I already really wanted an M1 carbine before your first video and I can't afford it yet 🤣
made a bolt from memory? daaaaaaaaaamn
When "all weekend", becomes just "Saturday".
What a great story! And so well told.
Great story and definitely a miracle.
Ian's tirade against Hollywood continues
He needs to let his hair loose and go full Messiah.
@@dickimusmaximus9086 the World isn't ready yet.
Shows his British ancestry, Hollywood has been screwing with British history since the invention of film.😉
I am happy about that.
I remember watching that movie about Williams as a kid. The twists of the real story are so much better.
"don't put my name on it, I want nothing to do with this, I absolutely do not want to be known forever as Carbine Williams"
- Carbine Williams
@chris younts The CEO did. As did the team working on it
@peter jones I am so triggered right now. You have triggered me. I'm not even a gun.
@peter jones In fact, the "car-bean" pronunciation is closer to the correct pronunciation of the original French root word "carabinier", meaning a soldier armed with a musket/a musketeer. (I think perhaps it was popular to arm such troops with shorter muskets for extra manouevrability, hence the use of the word?)
This is the same root for the Italian word "carabinieri", which I believe are the dedicated police force for Rome and the Vatican.
Even as an Englishman, in respect of this fact, I tend to use the "-bean" pronunciation, though I do like how "car-bine" sounds. "Custodians of an international and historically-steeped language" bumph aside, if we're going to defend particular pronunciations, they should probably be the more correct/original ones we choose to argue for.
There is, of course, the very valid argument of choosing to say it the anglicized way just to stick it to the French, however, which I will concede is valid. One must always take any given opportunity, as a true-blood Englishman, to stick it to the French.
@peter jones am I looking too far in to this or did you say the last word to jab at how people pronounce things? Idk. Just Wikipedia lol
@peter jones for the record though, my grandfather served in ww2 and was issued a carbine. Never called it anything but a "car-bean." So there is provenance in that.
To build from memory then property heat treat in literally hours is a feat that needs to be brought to light. Thanks ordering the book today.
That was one HELL of a feat. Probably couldn't be duplicated today. Flying by the seat of his ass, forget the pants, ain't got no time for pants.
Yeah and Hollywood will never make a movie about him.
Not as sexy for Hollywood, even if Jimmy Stewart could play anyone, even a humble machinist, in a real true story..
@@Hawk1966 Im in the machining industry..there are thousands of guys who are brilliant AND rough and ready enough to accomplish this. Thousands in an in industry of millions. Unfortunately..they are going to be retiring..and that "thousands" is steadily dropping to "hundreds"...
@@GunnerAsch1 how very true. I'm in Sheffield and I've grown up with the last of the "little mesters", true engineering and machining genius that they were. There's few left now, and in an age that champions degree level education over hands on practical learning, there will be very few people that capable in the coming generations. I once watched two University professors trying to smelt steel in a crucible forge, they were scratching their heads as to why it wasn't working. One of the old boys wandered up, leaned on his walking stick and looked at the fire "That's not hot enough" they disagreed. He then took a bite of the coke they were burning, spat it out and said "nope, you'll never get beyond 1350 degrees with that" , they laughed him off as their IR thermometer read 1500, he wandered off chuckling to himself. Shortly after he left they tried a second thermometer, which read 1338 degrees and try as they might never got the heat any higher. It reminds me of one of my Grandad's sayings, "listen to the guy with dirty hands before you listen to the guy in a clean shirt".