A ton of respect for David and everything he has done and accomplished with this sport. As always I really enjoyed the questions and conversation on this episode. I have an issue with David's opinion that because he is older and this is his livelihood he has more of a right to be out there than some guy just trying to have a good day on the water. Nicky calling David on his comment that nobody just blindly goes out there and finds good spots was appreciated. Many people especially in the keys where folks don't just broadcast information will 1000% just hit the water and cover ground, use aerials/maps and try to cover spots that look good. It is extremely possible to end up in a good fishing area doing this that some older guide considers his intellectual property. Maybe David's mindset is more applicable to the panhandle where everything is more spread out and locating a spot is more challenging. It really bothers me that because a guide might be making a living and has been around the block he can cut you off on a flat. From a zoomed out perspective I would argue that the experienced guide is privileged to be able to use the public water day in and day out and make a living doing it and for him to go bully some guy who has been planning and saving up for a yearly DIY trip or a young guide who is just trying to learn is arrogant. What happens if in my world I have "gone beyond" to find a fishing spot, I spent the time to understand the details of where I was fishing, studied maps, studied aerials, put in days of covering ground and in the same fashion that the guide years ago ended up in an area with fish I too discovered it. But that guide can come around the corner and cut me off because in HIS OPINION I haven't "gone beyond" ?? "His water, my water, their water..." its our water and the more we treat it like that the better the resources will be kept.
Much respect for all he has done for Tarpon fishing. I was so inspired by Location X watched it over and over. Definitely influenced me. Another great podcast with some sticky issues on “spots” well done guys!
I feel compelled to comment on this guy. I fish in Florida quite a bit, but not the Keys. Every time I tend to go to a new area, and every time I research and look at google maps and find flats and points to explore that might hold fish. When I get to those areas I never look at other boats and mark points on a GPS. Mostly, I think other fishermen don't have much of a clue anyways, so why would I copy them? Only 1 in 20 are probably worth investigating their spots, so it's a complete waste of time to take this approach. I would love to meet this guy out on the water. He would not like me at all, I guarantee it. I would never ever ever ever move from a spot I arrived at first. Ever. Ever.
Starting at about 20:00, I'm reminded of every a-hole fishing guide I've ever met. "Water is public, but the information and knowledge gained from time spent on the water are proprietary." 🤣 As a fisherman, I will always practice common courtesy - and no fishing guide (or Instagram "Influencer") can dictate where/when/how I fish on public water. Also, at 28:40, I love how Mill calls out the mis-representation of the world record tarpon. Love Andy Mill's podcasts, but I had to shut it off after that.
Regarding the right to claim water you've "earned" over a lifetime of sweat equity regardless of how you feel about the matter, nobody will respect your claim to a spot 100% of the time and as a lifelong fishing guide I speak from personal experience. It's just a part of the business every guide and recreational angler has to deal with. I will say that when it comes down to keeping places and techniques a secret I have a proven method that has served me well for 50 years in the business. Staying off the radar is the best course of action if you don't want company either on a spot or within a developing fishery. I've kept some pretty remarkable fisheries a secret for many years by keeping my mouth shut about them and demanding my clients do the same when at all possible. This generation of anglers, influencers, and guides all have something in common that will unfailingly lead to them getting their lips pooched out. They are fishing for recognition and attention rather than for the love of the sport. Ask people to notice you and what you caught and give you praise and you'll get all of the attention you requested and more, for better or worse.
Thanks very much gentlemen, really enjoyed this one. Shout out to Dean Butler too, I hear he's not the best right now - he organised a Fiji trip for me years ago which was wonderful. Speedy recovery mate.
Great point at 24:30. Don't tell me that every single spot that David has fished he has found himself. No help from anyone, never has seen a single person in his life fish there, and he magically found the secret spot. Your ego is getting in your way David. Much respect, but I'm calling BS on your thinking. Should a guy move, or move over when a guide gets there, and the new guy knows that the guide fishes there all the time, sure, and good for that new guy to give respect to the fellow boater. But on the flip side, if that new guy honestly does not know about that spot, and as Nicky does, just looks at google and finds this cut on the flat or depression, then when he puts his pole in the ground, he owns it.
Watch/listen to the Stu Apte interview. Quite a contrast. Mill asks Apte who among the early generation of anglers he most feared, and we know what he means but Apte does not because framing respect for fellow fishermen in terms of fear is a foreign concept to a man who piloted 121 landings on an aircraft carrier. And we believe Apte when he says he respected them all because his approach to fishing varies so vastly to that of today's super guides purporting to own this or that fishery. The person who motored up on Apte and asked, "who the hell do you think you are, Stu Apte" is probably already starring in a fly fishing movie sponsored by a company that makes coolers or sunglasses. The passion, the commitment, the devotion to the craft and to learning that Mangum exhibits is admirable, is the real deal, is almost Stu-Apte-like, and how nice it is that he has been able to make a career as a fly fishing guide. But no person is more entitled to a spot in the ocean than any other, regardless of how they have chosen to make their living or the number of years they've spent fishing. Magnum is, as Mr. Apte said to the angler who motored up on him, setting a bad example. I hope the next time Magnum finds an angler in "his spot" he applies his "intellectual capital" to seek out adventure for his client elsewhere in the ocean.
Hey guys, great podcast, lots of fine food to think about. Let me offer a few different thoughts. Andy Mill: "People don't understand, that there is no advantage in fishing 40, 60 or 80 lbs.!" "You can tie 20 lbs. test to a scale, 40, 60 and 80. Blindfold the anglers and stay back. Pull as hard as you can. It's not going over 20." Hello Andy, Yes, you may lift a bucket filled with water and tell the weight of the bucket + water being the max force on the leader. But unlike a bucket a tarpon hits back! A tarpon creates PEAK forces. Those tarpon sided forces may break the 16 lbs. test without that force ever entering the fly rod area of the line. The fly line dampens those peak forces while being under water, just not for the leader. Here your experiment is far of fishing reality for the leaders! Using 100 lbs. straight leaders allow to pull hard at nearly any time without having to fear any peak force to kill the 16 lbs. weak section in the leader as you prefer to use it. I have zero doubt, that the avg. force/pull can easily be lifted by using such strong leaders. If people fear the leader to break, they fear pulling hard. As simple as that. Also setting the hook works very effective on such strong leaders. Fishing wise I can break a 130 lbs. straight leader when hooking into a log for example. Difficult yes, but possible. Again a tarpon however fights back and those forces entering the leader, will never enter my hands 1 to 1. Thus the highest forces are happening on the leader! Andy Mill: "People come in for just a week and don't care to get any better. They just want to catch a fish." This wasn't very friendly. In fact it might feel offensive to many fly fishermen, I think. There are very many keys (fly casting, fly tying and all fishing strategy aspects), in which people can and often will get better. Chosing a weaker set up of a leader is just a personal preference. In fact going down in the size of shock tippet, makes it easier to get a hook up instead of spooking overfished tarpon by an 80 lbs. shock tippet. Using a 16 lbs. test leader in my book will make no one a better fisherman compared to using a 30 lbs. test. Becoming a better fisherman to me is a lot, but not just the leader setup. There are many ways to achieve this, not just the IGFA worlded one! A bit of a different view, maybe worth a thought, too. Keep up the fine pod casts! Cheers Bernd
As I guy who has learned the Lower Keys on the front of other peoples' skiffs, this is a thoughtful, reasonable conversation. I don't think Dave is being arrogant, nor his position unreasonable. I also don't think Andy's position is wrong or unreasonable. It is a limited resource and people are going to bump into each other while using it. Guides are making a living out there. They are an important part of the industry/experience and their perspective is relevant. But I also think the idea of a first timer "finding a stop" in the lower Keys by studying a map or GPS, a bit of a stretch, especially when it comes to tides and water depths. The odds are, they saw a boat there at some point in time, as Dave states.
A ton of respect for David and everything he has done and accomplished with this sport. As always I really enjoyed the questions and conversation on this episode. I have an issue with David's opinion that because he is older and this is his livelihood he has more of a right to be out there than some guy just trying to have a good day on the water. Nicky calling David on his comment that nobody just blindly goes out there and finds good spots was appreciated. Many people especially in the keys where folks don't just broadcast information will 1000% just hit the water and cover ground, use aerials/maps and try to cover spots that look good. It is extremely possible to end up in a good fishing area doing this that some older guide considers his intellectual property. Maybe David's mindset is more applicable to the panhandle where everything is more spread out and locating a spot is more challenging. It really bothers me that because a guide might be making a living and has been around the block he can cut you off on a flat. From a zoomed out perspective I would argue that the experienced guide is privileged to be able to use the public water day in and day out and make a living doing it and for him to go bully some guy who has been planning and saving up for a yearly DIY trip or a young guide who is just trying to learn is arrogant. What happens if in my world I have "gone beyond" to find a fishing spot, I spent the time to understand the details of where I was fishing, studied maps, studied aerials, put in days of covering ground and in the same fashion that the guide years ago ended up in an area with fish I too discovered it. But that guide can come around the corner and cut me off because in HIS OPINION I haven't "gone beyond" ?? "His water, my water, their water..." its our water and the more we treat it like that the better the resources will be kept.
Much respect for all he has done for Tarpon fishing. I was so inspired by Location X watched it over and over. Definitely influenced me. Another great podcast with some sticky issues on “spots” well done guys!
Love the mention of Alvin, JT and the Austin Angler. That place was so special.
I feel compelled to comment on this guy. I fish in Florida quite a bit, but not the Keys. Every time I tend to go to a new area, and every time I research and look at google maps and find flats and points to explore that might hold fish. When I get to those areas I never look at other boats and mark points on a GPS. Mostly, I think other fishermen don't have much of a clue anyways, so why would I copy them? Only 1 in 20 are probably worth investigating their spots, so it's a complete waste of time to take this approach. I would love to meet this guy out on the water. He would not like me at all, I guarantee it. I would never ever ever ever move from a spot I arrived at first. Ever. Ever.
Starting at about 20:00, I'm reminded of every a-hole fishing guide I've ever met. "Water is public, but the information and knowledge gained from time spent on the water are proprietary." 🤣
As a fisherman, I will always practice common courtesy - and no fishing guide (or Instagram "Influencer") can dictate where/when/how I fish on public water. Also, at 28:40, I love how Mill calls out the mis-representation of the world record tarpon. Love Andy Mill's podcasts, but I had to shut it off after that.
Regarding the right to claim water you've "earned" over a lifetime of sweat equity regardless of how you feel about the matter, nobody will respect your claim to a spot 100% of the time and as a lifelong fishing guide I speak from personal experience. It's just a part of the business every guide and recreational angler has to deal with. I will say that when it comes down to keeping places and techniques a secret I have a proven method that has served me well for 50 years in the business. Staying off the radar is the best course of action if you don't want company either on a spot or within a developing fishery. I've kept some pretty remarkable fisheries a secret for many years by keeping my mouth shut about them and demanding my clients do the same when at all possible.
This generation of anglers, influencers, and guides all have something in common that will unfailingly lead to them getting their lips pooched out. They are fishing for recognition and attention rather than for the love of the sport. Ask people to notice you and what you caught and give you praise and you'll get all of the attention you requested and more, for better or worse.
Bingo ! Bitching about blowing it while you’re on social blowing it up . Genius .
I also fish places simply due to my own research. I think the assumption everyone is just copy catting is a little bit incorrect.
So for real ..great podcast
Thanks very much gentlemen, really enjoyed this one. Shout out to Dean Butler too, I hear he's not the best right now - he organised a Fiji trip for me years ago which was wonderful. Speedy recovery mate.
Great point at 24:30. Don't tell me that every single spot that David has fished he has found himself. No help from anyone, never has seen a single person in his life fish there, and he magically found the secret spot. Your ego is getting in your way David. Much respect, but I'm calling BS on your thinking. Should a guy move, or move over when a guide gets there, and the new guy knows that the guide fishes there all the time, sure, and good for that new guy to give respect to the fellow boater. But on the flip side, if that new guy honestly does not know about that spot, and as Nicky does, just looks at google and finds this cut on the flat or depression, then when he puts his pole in the ground, he owns it.
Watch/listen to the Stu Apte interview. Quite a contrast. Mill asks Apte who among the early generation of anglers he most feared, and we know what he means but Apte does not because framing respect for fellow fishermen in terms of fear is a foreign concept to a man who piloted 121 landings on an aircraft carrier. And we believe Apte when he says he respected them all because his approach to fishing varies so vastly to that of today's super guides purporting to own this or that fishery. The person who motored up on Apte and asked, "who the hell do you think you are, Stu Apte" is probably already starring in a fly fishing movie sponsored by a company that makes coolers or sunglasses. The passion, the commitment, the devotion to the craft and to learning that Mangum exhibits is admirable, is the real deal, is almost Stu-Apte-like, and how nice it is that he has been able to make a career as a fly fishing guide. But no person is more entitled to a spot in the ocean than any other, regardless of how they have chosen to make their living or the number of years they've spent fishing. Magnum is, as Mr. Apte said to the angler who motored up on him, setting a bad example. I hope the next time Magnum finds an angler in "his spot" he applies his "intellectual capital" to seek out adventure for his client elsewhere in the ocean.
This is some good stuff 👏
Hey guys,
great podcast, lots of fine food to think about. Let me offer a few different thoughts.
Andy Mill:
"People don't understand, that there is no advantage in fishing 40, 60 or 80 lbs.!"
"You can tie 20 lbs. test to a scale, 40, 60 and 80. Blindfold the anglers and stay back. Pull as hard as you can. It's not going over 20."
Hello Andy,
Yes, you may lift a bucket filled with water and tell the weight of the bucket + water being the max force on the leader.
But unlike a bucket a tarpon hits back! A tarpon creates PEAK forces. Those tarpon sided forces may break the 16 lbs. test without that force ever entering the fly rod area of the line. The fly line dampens those peak forces while being under water, just not for the leader. Here your experiment is far of fishing reality for the leaders!
Using 100 lbs. straight leaders allow to pull hard at nearly any time without having to fear any peak force to kill the 16 lbs. weak section in the leader as you prefer to use it. I have zero doubt, that the avg. force/pull can easily be lifted by using such strong leaders. If people fear the leader to break, they fear pulling hard. As simple as that. Also setting the hook works very effective on such strong leaders.
Fishing wise I can break a 130 lbs. straight leader when hooking into a log for example. Difficult yes, but possible. Again a tarpon however fights back and those forces entering the leader, will never enter my hands 1 to 1. Thus the highest forces are happening on the leader!
Andy Mill:
"People come in for just a week and don't care to get any better. They just want to catch a fish."
This wasn't very friendly. In fact it might feel offensive to many fly fishermen, I think.
There are very many keys (fly casting, fly tying and all fishing strategy aspects), in which people can and often will get better. Chosing a weaker set up of a leader is just a personal preference. In fact going down in the size of shock tippet, makes it easier to get a hook up instead of spooking overfished tarpon by an 80 lbs. shock tippet. Using a 16 lbs. test leader in my book will make no one a better fisherman compared to using a 30 lbs. test. Becoming a better fisherman to me is a lot, but not just the leader setup. There are many ways to achieve this, not just the IGFA worlded one!
A bit of a different view, maybe worth a thought, too.
Keep up the fine pod casts!
Cheers
Bernd
Awesome!!!!!
Great episode. This will need a round 2.
How can we write questions for you to ask?
As I guy who has learned the Lower Keys on the front of other peoples' skiffs, this is a thoughtful, reasonable conversation. I don't think Dave is being arrogant, nor his position unreasonable. I also don't think Andy's position is wrong or unreasonable. It is a limited resource and people are going to bump into each other while using it. Guides are making a living out there. They are an important part of the industry/experience and their perspective is relevant.
But I also think the idea of a first timer "finding a stop" in the lower Keys by studying a map or GPS, a bit of a stretch, especially when it comes to tides and water depths. The odds are, they saw a boat there at some point in time, as Dave states.
Be more like Huff
Let’s just give it all back to the Native Indians and call it good.
Spot on David…. Well said.