Should we OVERFOLD in Live Poker?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ต.ค. 2024
- Caller gets in a tricky spot where he is faced with a large all-in bet while hold AA in a three bet pot. Bart discusses with him the value and bluff combinations his opponent is representing.
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How often are you giving up here and check-folding holding this combo of AA at the river, here?
Really depends on the player, and his/her histories, tendencies, and actions.
Every time I am folding.
Folding , this looks like a spot that is underbluff. So I'm folding
Player dependent, most likely a fold at 2 5. Underbluffed spot big time and we arent blocking anything. I expect to see 67 at minimum here.
I'm folding if we are 6+ players, i'm definitely not folding if we are 4-.
You should never say "you're good" unless you have total zilch b/c you don't know how thin your opponent is calling you; he may be bluff catching with A high even though the flush came in on the river. I've turned over my A high bluff catch and he goes, "oh..." and turned over middle pair. I've even had a guy with 2 pair say you're good for me to show middle pair. This is too tilting.
Unless they are also mucking, I hate when people say "you're good". What they are saying is "i want to see your hand but you don't get to see mine even tho you paid to see it." It's a Dick move.
Sounds like Doug Polk called in.
Just wanted to say I get excited everytime I see a new clp video, def my fav to watch and can't get enough learn tons!! Thanks Bart you the flipping man😎🙃🤟✌️
There's a timing tell here. When V "pretty quickly jams" it's a bluff a lot of the time. If V had a flush, straight, or set, they will think about bet sizing for at least little bit.
Love this.. Completely agree
Had a guy river Broadway with AK (over cards til river) and he snap Jams into me. I called cause the timing tell, and I lost. Also flushes snap jam all the time. You’re right that a straight and set probably won’t snap jam, MAYBE jacks would but probably not
@@windy619 yeah but the difference is (if im reading you comment right), in your example, they were the agressor on every street. He bet into you on pre, flop and turn, he probs only had a poy size bet left so there wouldnt be any thinking and he would just Jam.
In the example in the video, hero showed weakness on the turn, then vilian quick jamed on river. In that example vilian has to think (if he did have a flush) "right i have my hand now, whats the max this guy will call?"
@@stefanarcher1990 actually so I think he open raised, check called flop with overs, then check check (think he had gutter at that point), and then just snap leads for the pot on river when hits (it wasn’t a jam I’m remembering now). I literally thought.. timing tell.. and I called. For most part ya you’re right, but honestly I plan on using this “timing tell” against very competent, thinking players in future.
@@windy619 yeah.. Fair one..
I'm a big nit and would love to hear you do a series on when to call down or not at 1/3 live or similar type games in common spots
Step 1; quit being a nit.
@@jared_grey step 2: cut out the chips, shuffle them once, and close your eyes and mentally say fuck it and toss them in.
@@pali4434 we're gonna be great friends.
@@jared_grey LOL, clearly easier for some than others for various reasons!
If you have a standard 2500 big blind bank roll than you cannot be a nit. You have good cushion. If you’re playing with money you can’t lose than that brings out the nit.
I’ve been in both shoes. Trust me, try to get the BR up there
I don't understand how potentially having the Ah would make it more of a call.
If hero doesn't have Ah, villain has 6 more bluff combos (AhK, AhQ).
If hero has the Ah, villain does not have the 11 nut flushes combos (AhQh-Ah2h) but what bluffs does he realistically have?
this is kinda one of the few spots in my experience in live that people actually go crazy with random hands because "your turn check looked weak" so I don't know if I agree with you this spot is underbluffed. kinda everything you did with small sizing on flop to playing passive is to induce it's kinda a weird line to take to c/f river unless you think the player is exactly tight passive.
exactly. I only recently learned how to think about poker the "right" way so I still know how bad players think. They go especially crazy in 3bet pots like people just hate losing them. Then on top of that, they're not thinking about their range or heros range at all. All they're thinking is "this guy checked when the flush completed, didn't raise when I bet, _and_ checked the river so if I blast off they'll fold. It's a pure emotional read. The inverse to this is that you can very easily induce bluffs on 3bet pots when you have it. Just do exactly what hero did. 3bet large, bet the flop, then check, and they will blast into you (if the flop is something that is obviously good for your range like AAQ or something. Check it since they'll just fold if you have AQ or something). Obviously with all that being said it's not like villain can't have the flush here. it's the first 3bet they actually called so a suited ace is fairly likely. Just saying you're right this is certainly not underbluffed. I don't even think they need the Ah to do this.
also the fact they quickly jammed leads bluff
"There's lots of straights and flushes available"' and a straight flush on to boot as well 😀🤠
I just can't find a fold with AA on this runout for ~200bbs in a 3 bet pot. I'm fine with either continuing to bet if you think villian will call down light or checking to induce bluffs. Never looking to check fold though, people just do too many weird things at 2/5.
I think 2/5 population would see turn check as weakness especially against a capable player. Could be blasting off with an 8 or 99 that thinks they’re up against AK/AQ. With the button behind I’m less inclined to give them 67s in the CO range. Yes still up against all the sets, but no 2p that really make sense.
Can't wait for the Doug Polk/Bart Hanson podcast today, two of my favorites in poker! 😍😍
Same and It was a very intersecting discussion.
Interesting * lol
And that's just like your opinion man.
-The dude
A long-time player in Tampa, like almost 20 years. The action is hit or miss. Lots of nits and grinders at the Hard Rock. Better action in side rooms around town, IMO.
Stan yes is still there, nice guy. James I think is the Scottish guy you're referring to. He left a few years ago. Jamie is there but he is from Manchester, he's a great manager.
So in a situation where the villain is bluffing with the best hand and says nice call and hero turns over his hand is villian's hand dead? Obviously not, so shouldn't hero wait until villain either shows or mucks before showing his hand?
That's what I do. If I call you, muck or show. I hate it when people do this.
People saying their opponent is polarized, then saying they think that term is overused, is overused.
You didn't consider Pot odds in this analysis, 1/2 pot River Jam is basically a pot commital once we take the line of B-XC, it is better to fold OTT here than to call Turn, Fold River. If you don't think you dominate Villains value range OTT, your hand has little equity to improve (set out or straight out, but if his value range has more % of flushes, then we barely ever improve) so therefore I'd advocate he fold the Turn vs a sizing like this of that pot commits him OTR (I'd say anything leaving less than 60% of his stack is pot commiting, in general Regs / Fish do massively overbluff in all formations online for 55% or less (but only because pot odds OTR are so good to call, so it's very easy to be unbalanced).
So whilst I think this is a good analysis, I think it isn't really based on anything we can work out mathematically or a generally good strategy - So I think unless you're very confident in live reads, you want to check/fold Turn here or Check/call and call OTR with exception of very specific runouts. In the end I think Hero mentioned he made the call due to a live read, which I applaud but I think as a general strategy, I am perfectly happy to call down here and be stacked, not an issue with me.
There’s a lot 8x and 4x that play like this because they think that they are not good. People usually overcall one pair hands and overfolds Ax. Then they bluff with these hands that beat the low showdown value hands and get call by all bluffcatchers because people doesn’t like to fold AA
i could be wrong, but the avg player in these line ups is not jamming A3 or 67 so I am probably going to weight few combos to those hands
The thing that makes AA different is that you KNOW that preflop you had an 80/20 edge over ANY OTHER HAND. THere is no other starting hand in poker you can say that about. So if someone "cracks your aces" they are in the 20 %. That's very important because when bluff catching you have to ask is THIS the time the 20 % really got there or am I being bluffed? With any other preflop hand it's quite reasonable for your villain to just have improved to beat you.
Question for me is would the caller do the same with QQ?
Lost on the bubble of a WSOP final satellite tournament by calling an allin with AA preflop. 16 seats to win. Had a healthy M of 20 ish (about 9/17 players left) and opened the pot from UTG+1, villain in Lpos, who had me ever so slightly stacked (7/17 players) raised all in. I called and lost to a pair of 7s when a 7 flopped and was eliminated in 17th place... the satellite ended with everyone but me winning an 18k WSOP seat package. It was probably in my first couple of years of playing poker and a very valuable, but hard, lesson was learned.
Isn't it relevant to know if our opponent was bluffing with a good bluffing combo or complete air?
A tiny amount. It's much more important to keep the game relaxed, friendly and fun and for losing players to have an enjoyable experience.
If he has the Ace of Hearts should he fold? All the sets and straights (and non-Ace-high flushes) are still there and there is no longer the possibility of Ah+X as a bluff so you are relying on him bluffing with some of the harder bluffs to find...
Sets and straights probs wont jam because the flush has come in and would only be called by better. If hero had ace of hearts, it mean vilian wont be shoving with nut flush which is basically the only hand he should be shoving with. As a result it would be a call and prey he didnt have the one combo 7h6h.
Guessing he had Ah and he probably should be bluffing here.
Is there value to making an opponent turn over their bluff in that they will slow down future river bluffs for fear of being forced to show? Also, forcing someone to show cards can help tilt the player. There's no better feeling than deducing what everyone has and calling off a huge bluff, to not see it/show it is anti-climactic. I've had these same bluffers say shit like "you win", fake muck by dropping their cards in front of them, and then force the winner to show cards trying to angle shoot as the winner will sometimes release his hand after hearing "you win" and no longer have cards.
I think you want them to keep bluffing. It gives you an edge that you can exploit. Also intentionally tilting a player in my experience can lead to making a villain a little unpredictable and sometimes irrational.
I was trying to think of exactly what hands I might play this way and turn into a bluff. The one that makes the most sense to me is Ah 7x, or 6x.
Possible, but much less likely is 66 or 77 or even 33. Not many hands at all compared to all the hands beating you here. If I am the hero, I would pretty much have to think all these hands were in the villains range to contemplate a call. In my experience , most player would not do that.
I somewhat disagree with Bart saying there's not much value in seeing a bluff combo, like if villain in this example shows QTo, you get a lot of info about how wide villain is calling 3bets pre and how bluff happy they are, opposed to if villain shows AK with Ah, you see how tight they play against 3bet pre and how good a bluffing hand they need. Obviously im not sure how much $ value you gain from knowing these things vs how much $ value you gain from not upsetting/embarrassing fun players but I think there is an argument to be made for seeing bluffing hands, especially in big, info heavy pots. Also, can't Andy and Garrett just see what their opponents were bluffing with on the live stream? as well as they probably have a ton of info about all to opponents they're playing before hand, not sure that reference works great here
It’s interesting! I love and hate the pocket of Aces at the same time 😌👍
Question I could probably figure out by myself but heads up going to the flop how many suited heart hands does he have in a regular raised pot when there are two hearts on the flop? (I know this is 3bet pot)
There are 13 hearts in the deck
so what if you are making a call in this spot and the other guy says good call, you fast roll and the other guy shows you something that beats you? you just eat the slow roll and/or get angled? people angle here in california all the time
I don't really see how that's a real angleshoot. If a low two pair makes this river bet as basically a bluff and gets called he probably thinks he's beat and says good call and it turns out it's the winner that's an angle?
I guess you think people throw their hands in the muck face down when the opponent says good call. That person would be a dummy who deserves to lose their money.
The safest approach to fols Aces preflop
What's wrong being a nit or a grinder?
For the nit or grinder, nothing. Having them at a table slows and reduces action.
I don't like playing with nits. It's boring and more % gets eaten by rake because pots are small. Nits are bad for the game and they should know that others don't want them to be there.
I always say it’s your money. No one has the right to tell you what you should do with your money.
You think it would be more reasonable for him to value bet kk but not qq here? essentially they're the same hand.
The biggest difference between a tough high stakes game and a typical 2-5 or 1-3 game is that lower stakes players will not typically make large bluffs on the River. “Over folding” in these games can be a strong exploit, though you do have watch out for the “overvaluing their hand” situation. Sometimes a beginner will make a huge bet with something like two pair on a 4 straight board not as a bluff but because they think they have have a huge hand.
I really don’t think so. Beginners are more scared of the possible straight and flush than more advanced players who are better aware of ranges.
When I bluff my stack and someone forces me to show my hand after I say "you're good" then I'm more likely to be annoyed and less likely to rebuy.
I can't stand players like you. Muck or show. Don't play games. If he is good then you are wasting time. You're trying to save face but also still hoping to win. You get mad they are making you turn your hand over but it is you forcing them to turn their hand over because they called and get to see your cards. Or they don't. But if they don't see yours you don't get to see theirs. I'm tired of this cheap trick.
None of this applies if you're a fish. I'll just show my hand to a fish. But if you're competent then I see you as the jerk.
@@SerErryk I usually donk off 5k or more in a $2/5 game in a few hours so its really pointless to force me to show my embarrassing bluff and lose the rest of my action that day. I know how to play better but I usually only go to the casino when I'm planning to be a drunk donkey and I usually end up all in at least once every orbit or two. I only say "you're good" when I have worse than ace high. I'll show any pair or even an ace. Never have done it as a trick.
@@drfunkinstein1 this is one of the greatest replies I've ever seen on TH-cam 😂
Need to go all in with aces or it goes sideways into situations like this
With the given information, I don't think you're ever up against Jacks and rarely flushes. Villain's turn bet is really strange even if JHJx, isn't it? Especially when he's not blocking any of the top flushes and he's against a 3-better? Also, Hero has a pretty wide range of hands available defending from the BB... aren't flushes in Hero's range?
I don't see KK or QQ here, either. For value, I think you're against 4 sets, all the wheels (so yeah, the nut flush is possible), and maybe 7D6D.
Jacks is pretty plausible here. It’s not always going to be 4-bet there and there’s only going to be some craises on the flop I think.
@@adamseidel9780 I'm just not sure when or why JHJx doesn't represent on the flop. I agree with your PF.
In tandem with the turn action when the front-door gets there, JHJx seems a weird holding to fall in love with and play this way.
@@PrometheanConsulting I think a lot of lower stakes players, including me, I might think to play it this way, would see the turn check when a lot of front doors come in and interpret that as most likely overcards or an overpair they were cautious of in flatting PF getting spooked. They’d also expect a nutted hand playing tricky to either c-r a turn bet or call then blast lead most rivers. Thus you can figure you’re probably good but evaluate when nutted hands blast back immediately. It would be highly tricky trappy to check-call turn and check river out of position, then your J comes in anyway and you beat the overpairs so you just blast.
I’m not saying I’m sure that’s GOOD, I just can see people playing that easily. Honestly I’d probably potentially play that whole line with JhJx like that except I’d be more likely to raise the flop
@@adamseidel9780 The problem with this line for jacks is that Hero's range from the BB has Villain drawing dead to flushes and straights and drawing to 2 outs against an overpair with a heart.
How often does Hero have a hand you can beat with JJ? I just don't think the bet/jam is sized right for a good bluff. Hero is going to be priced into calling down with a hand that beats Villain.
The flop/turn action induces me to call down because I'm only facing 4 lower sets and the wheel combinations, I've got the range advantage, and I'm good often enough against the rest. I don't love it but golf clap to Villain for taking this line w/JJ.
Good chat!
@@PrometheanConsulting again, I’m not claiming it’s a GOOD line, just that I might do it. The heroes turn check makes me think either they hit their draw and want to induce, in which case I expect to get my vet check raised, their over cards I always had beat are shutting down and I need to take the pot and protect my jacks, or their overpairs that I’ve been scared off since PF are now also getting scared of the draws and I have the opportunity to bluff them out. I’m not thrilled by the call and am thinking I’m probably beat and need to decide if I’m willing to blast as a bluff against overpairs on a checked river, but then the jack comes in and I start to think I may have told equity AND some value after the check so I just blast.
If the jacks doesn’t come in, I probably stare at it for a second trying to figure out if I’m supposed to bluff at it and then just check and pray to win against missed draws of some kind because I’m not really sure and don’t want to punt.
Doesn't pio like a large size on this flop?
Bart - please don’t come to Tampa. We don’t want you to scare off all the fish!!
Week 4
Please Bart go to Tampa and explain it to the rest of us.
Explain why I would want to go there? Mainly cigars and golf
@@CrushlivePoker Please Bart, go to Tampa, play poker at Seminole HR, and explain it to the rest of us. 😒 smartass.
@@KellyBeluscak I have literally no idea what you are talking about
@@CrushlivePoker literally in the first 23 seconds of the video you mention going to Tampa. 😂
Don’t think I’d make that call honestly
Honestly thought fold turn
Guy took five minutes? I would be yelling after one. I would never let someone take that long.
Doesn’t Bart talk a lot about insta-jams? When you say “quickly jams”-doesn’t this make bluffs a bit more likely? On the other hand, not having AH blocker is a big deal. So what bluffs does he have? And what value are you beating? Will he jam KK or QQ here? I dunno. What are his bluffs? I am not immediately coming up with *any* bluffs here.
I fold. I think there are more straights and flushes than KK and QQ, especially doesn’t he 4-bet sometimes with KK? and i’m not identifying bluffs. I think I might call with the AH…
Ok, guess he had a bluff… who knows QJs?
The only bluff i see this guy having is Ah2x.. But even that's a stretch. I gen cant work out what this guy had.
Love you all but damn ... I may need to see this one and force a show down nere.... this ain't "mickey" lol
If he's some truck driver you'll never see again let him slide but a bluff like this could seems pretty unique. You see AoH and a pair for some nasty solver approved bluff against a regular your gonna constantly battle.
Again I don't always ask to see them but this one might be one to see
Gotta make 😭😭😭 call here...
Damn, I woulda folded like an idiot I guess.
AhX bluff. Call.
Haven’t heard the result. Maybe could be TT or 99 with a heart
🤯Call it down.
It’s not actually that difficult of a call, imagine if hero had ace Jack with ace of heart on the river there, could be playing the exact same way and he’d be calling on the river there so aces should not be that difficult of a spot and if anything should be easier
Is your mug large enough Bart? Looks like you might be selling yourself short a little...
Woo tampa
I would love to understand how many people commenting here are actually profitable. Lol
Regarding Bart's fast rolling comment at the end, villains holding a pair may accidentally auto-muck some backdoor combos, like a straight they weren't drawing for, if you show them Aces or 2pr right away.
Your hair looks better combed front-to-back not back to front
"Is there any value hands worse than yours he could be doing this with?"
"He can be doing it with kings and queens probably" "He can be doing it with this and that maybe"
The dude has no clue. He's trying to justify everything by saying probably and maybe.
He has A♥️ and J♣️
Can you do a vid on downbetting flops? It seems weird to give v good odds to continue with all kinds of draws.
the less you bet the more often you can do it with any hand. Specifically with AA it may be poor but if you do this with 33 and get him to fold KsTs thats a huge win as he had 25% equity that went to 0. If you get him to check raise and call off 8K on turn and river when you have AA its also a win. Meanwhile if you have 9T here and he calls flop but then folds against turn bet where a jack comes to give you a straight draw, you won more than by checking.
The solid draws are calling flop almost regardless of sizing.
The down bet is to keep the betting lead so the opponent doesn't stab all turns into you, folds air, and is a simplified way to stay balanced on c betting.
Why is it bad to gain info on a player's hand on the river vs fast showing?
just makes you look like an asshole. If the guy says your good, just show your cards
Forcing the donks to show their bluffs embarrasses them in front of the table and gets them to shut down and/or leave the table earlier than they would have otherwise. It also makes it less likely that other opponents will ever try to bluff you if you're going to do the same to them.
@@joelcarpio529 But I want them tilted.