How much do walls cost?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
- How much does it cost to build a wall around your town in late dark age to mid feudal? It turns out, it's not a completely straight-forward question.
1:00 The basic principles of making good walls
2:30 How much does 1 palisade tile cost?
6:15 What is the length of a typical wall online?
8:20 Stone walls
Patreon: / spiritofthelaw
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Game: Age of Empires 2 Definitive Edition, with Forgotten Empires, African Kingdoms, Rise the Rajas, and Last Khans expansions
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Hey guys Spirit of the Wall here
You made the first comment which actually counts as a comment.
underrated comment
In this video we'll be discussing laws
@@electricn0va "may i add that those laws are not written in stone but in wood as well*
Spirit of the Wall = Fatslob
I just find that amusing how you spectated 30 actual games, just to collect some data. This is real effort into making videos, and i absolutely appreciate your work as a whole, and hope that you find joy in giving us every chance to become even slightly better players. Just thank you man.
- An average and curious player
For real, hIs method is immaculate.
30 players in team games, so probably
4 games is the minimum he watched for 30 full walling players.
I love using houses as walls while playing the Huns.
wait what
Yeah, the Huns are technologically advanced with their invisible houses. 😏
How about goths?
You're right, Huns's housse a Nice and vers efficient, I love them !
They should put it available for walls or style purposes
The real question is how much does not walling cost?
Answer: Usually the game.
You wall for peace of mind
@@stormrunner4081 Personally, I wall so that 6 archers don't appear in my woodline with no warning 12 mins into the game.
raiding party
I only wall the most direct route. Some games I don't wall at all. I'm no pro, but I am 1500 elo in 1v1. I do think walling is good, but some people rely on it too much, and I have won many games against people relying purely on walling
Walling is bad for me because I don't know how to defend it when they just attack my wall lol
So you are saying the US-Mexico border wall should incorperate houses, markets and stables?
Maybe a market for some scouting info in a team game....
The US are in Imperial Age already, so no need for those. Rather take some ICBM silos.
Usually I hate when people bring up political or semi-political things on purely non-political vids. But you did so humorously and non-divisively. Well done, fine yeoman!
The big question now facing us is:
What is the US's unique unit?
@@natee7683 We don't know. But the Imperial unique tech is "Second ammendment" which gives villagers the ability to use hand-cannons to defend themselves.
@@natee7683 The Karen
I swear spirit of the law has the best intro on youtube. It’s wholesome and nostalgic, but also exiting and hypes me up
I love how I haven't even played the game in ages and yet I still always watch. It's just interesting stuff!
Yep I agree. I haven't played this game in weeks but still watch these religiously
Same here. Haven't played in years and always so happy about s new vid. So wholesome and fun
I was like this for a while, but I started to play again (in large part because of these videos) and it's so much fun. The ranked match-making system works really good. So even if you are no good, you will be facing ppl at your skill level ( after 10 games)
For a 20+ year old game it’s really amazing how much in depth the game can be and I’m very surprised how many people still play to this day.
I watch both SOTL and Mah-dry-bread. Never expected his comment here, It feels like finding an easter egg in a game 11
Short answer: small amount of materials per wall. Sotl answer: build time, resource collect time, hidden shenanigans, wall quality, wasted time, walking time, and map type
Not to mention how intently the ghost of Ghenghis Khan is staring at you from the corner of the room
Naptime!
Also, build time in the other sense. I.e. _when_ you build, rather than how long it takes. If you build after you have lumberjack bonuses, it is relatively cheaper (because wood collection is faster), but might be too late...
My favourite thing about this is that the opportunity cost of "I could be doing something else more economically productive" (e.g., gathering resources) is also true of us building walls in real life.
If I put up a random rustic-looking wall around my front yard to make it look pretty and / or keep out raiding scout cavalry I have to factor in the Spirit of the Law videos I don't get to watch / work I don't get to complete during that time into the equation.
does your yard get raided often? what civ is you? consider building a castle
just hire some neighborhood kids to work as spearmen if ur that worried about ur yard
Consider setting up bear traps, especially around the end of October
"Hey guys, Spirit of the law here, in this video we're gonna look at walls."
Probably the best opening sentence to any video on TH-cam
Yeah, but that could be just a graphical improvement. It could just look at if it is on a slope and if so, then show a different sprite. We already have greatly improved build and destruction animations for buildings, and sloping walls wouldn't be particularly complicated
Imagine if he literally mean it
Well this question seems to have an obvious answer, I bet Spirit will have a ton of interesting stuff to say about it.
you look familiar...
6:40 thats me and the bois playing 1111111 We where wondering who spec our game yesterday 11! So funny to see our games being in your video. Rip the elephant spam q-q
6:49 my beautiful base before the elephants came stomping in...
Somebody watching your game:
Expectations: Spirit Of The Law making new guide
Reality: T90 making new Low Elo Legends episode
@@ArsenalFootbal oof 11
*Why is it wrong to attack the wall when you’re frustrated?*
_The wall has never been anything but supportive._
*Why do cemeteries have walls and fences around them?*
_Because people are dying to get in!_
Why was the wall arrested for sexual intimidation, it was naked and rock hard
Ba dum tssss
Boooo!
lol
stop it
just stop, people like u make me sick!
Nothing is more frustrating than when you leave a hole and the opponent just wall-tz into your base.
They thought it was a hole, but it was a maze
They expected to waltz in, but now they're playing a tower defense map
Nothing is more frustrating than _not_ leaving a hole, and then your lumberjacks make one without you noticing! 🤬
When you're Khmer, every house is a gate.
Instructions unclear, my scouts got trapped in my base.
Pacifist gates which discriminates non-civilians
House: Non-villager unit detected.
Not allowed through.
Access denied.
Only for Vils...
@@NaumanAsif Yeah, but as buildings are part of your walls, you can just produce units outside of your wall ^^
Hey Spirit, could you do a video on relics - and how important or not it is to get them/when do they start paying for themselves
Relics generate 30 gold per minute throughout the game, take no population space, very difficult to raid, no need to micro. Relics can be taken only after reaching castle age, when spending 100-200 gold should not be that big a deal. Always claim relics as soon as possible. In 1 vs 1 games, unless you're being rushed, or you're rushing the enemy, the first thing to do once you reach castle age is to start claiming relics. Each relic you claim denies your opponent of 30 gold per minute, while providing you with the same, so effectively, a relic pays for itself in 2 minutes. If you use the same monk to collect 2-3 relics, then that monk is like a corporate employee, who provides 10 times the value his company spends on him.
@@ayush885 Noice! Monk = cost of monastery plus cost of monk, in pure terms.
@5:50
"rush of 3 militia which cost a hundred and eighty resources"
Uhm, excuse me SotL but isn't that (60 food + 20 gold) x 3 = 240 resources?
True. What a derpy thing to say. I was only thinking of the food cost for some reason.
@@SpiritOfTheLaw Probably because gold is a cheap resource to come by in Feudal Age
@@unimportantcommenter4356 yea if you get loom you just collect 10 gold and then the rest of the gold cost comes from your starting resources, whereas the food will always be a resource you have to invest a lot more eco into collecting, as you're also gonna use it for feudal age. So in that regard, the food cost is the only significant resource to consider when making the militia.
Don't forget the opportunity cost of an early barracks!
Malay forced levy drush.
Opponents: Wait, that’s illegal!
"Did you wall?"
"NO"
"What did it cost?"
"Everything"
I started laughing at "Gates' Worth"
I just realized that walls still look janky when built across elevations. Like at 2:44
I am surprised they didn't add sloping walls in Definitive Edition...
They still use the same old engine, just upgraded the graphics.
@@Calmarius The engine is extremely enhanced now tho
It seems like it wouldn't be a complicated addition either
Thanks to SOTL now people understand the difference between accounting and economic cost.
Should do a follow up where you measure the “cost” of being rushed... if you do zero walls but get rushed in what scenarios do you come out ahead?
Eg. Get pushed off a tree line for 45 seconds, but don’t lose vils, would you be ahead of someone who walled to keep a rush out?
That’s what I’d want to know
Good idea. And how do you bounce back after getting rushed.
2:20 While 1 house is stronger than 2 palisades, the perimeter grows geometrically with side length, so depending on how many attackers you have it can go down about as fast. (Testing in the scenario editor just now, against 3 scouts or 4-5 maa, a house is much better; twice as many enemy units and a house is no better, and you have pop to lose.) Good example can be seen at 9:30 in this Hera game: th-cam.com/video/bOZxlNsa1L0/w-d-xo.html
I don’t know how Spirit of the Law manages to upload a killer video every single time I’m hella hungover but I couldn’t be happier about it, biggest mvp 😻
i realy like, that he always adds the time you use the villagers fore something else than collecting.
love your math
Your videos are excellent, I have seen almost all of them while we are in quarentine in my country. As a new player I am trying to learn and your videos are awesome for that propose, thanks for that. Could you also do a video about the best army composition? (Kind of how many of "x" unit, "y" unit, "z" unit, you need to have a balance "counter to all you may find" army). Great videos! Keep it up
I like the HD segments of the classic intro
What do you think about the argentinian guy who won a match by writing *"advanced to Castle Age"* in the chat 😂
HAHA WHAT
501st comment. What I remember most about the rise of the empire, was how quiet it was.
No one else will realize this was literally the 501st comment, but I appreciate the reference
In the Huns video: The saved wood from houses isn't that big of a deal.
Now: It's not cheap, have you calculated the lost wood in lAbOr?i
Recently, I've started building more palisade walls instead of waiting for Feudal stone walls and this has had significant benefits for me. The pros love and utilize palisades really well.
I like building roman style field camps
“Walls walls protect your balls.”
-Hera and his chat
Spirit of the Law, hands down you have the absolute most slappin' intro to your videos.
7:56 8 villagers taking sheep a full two tiles from the TC, bold strategy!
SOTL's intro is the only one I never skip despite having seen it countless times already.
I like the 1.5x version best
the palisade wall has the theme of the Dark age, the Stone Wall has the theme of the Feudal Age and the Fortified wall has the theme of the castle age. Buildings that change their appearances up to the imperial age are the Town Center, The Market and the University. Towers also first appear from the dark age as the non-attack outpost in the dark age, the feudal age themed watch tower, the castle age themed guard tower and the imperial age themed keep. an additional assault tower called the bombard tower also gets unlocked after being researched from the university.
Not that it ever mattered but NZ fan here and love your content spirit of the Law! Might not be a popular opinion but I love the math related videos you put out. Keep doing you, hope you’re safe
I also think it's probably a good idea to put your most important defensive reinforcement structures in parts of the wall less likely to be targeted, but ideally still somewhat central and forward for mobility.
Hey man, I grew up with this game in the early 2000s, and it had always had a special place in my heart, I'm glad to see that even 20 years later this game has gotten even better with the new editions and the DLC.
I think what you do here is quite awesome and amazing, but you have essentially killed this game for me with all the math since I started watching your channel ... lol
I really appreciate the bit about alternative buildings for subwalling. House wall or barracks insert to wall to plug.
Great video. Would love to see one on the different forms of trample damage if there's enough info and unusual interactions to make a whole video out of it. I've been trying out the slavs and had some real trouble killing a few beserkers with a bunch of my habls. Not sure if I understand how that damage and other damage sources (like certain elephants and cataphracts) work.
I noticed you remade your intro with DE even the goth game plan has a more definitive grass, nice touch man
Very interesting! I never thought about the hidden cost of walling from the "lost" resources" not gathered by the villager.
I would have liked some more analysis on using buildings as walls, and on using stone walls. Even though stone walls costs 2x and in stone, their hp is >3x, so the investment in the upgrade appears important. Specially since later techs increase the hp of the walls, increasing the worth. So essentially, making stone walls attractive all the time (as long as stone is available and castles are not priority lets say).
I'll keep this in mind especially when I decide to add a gate or two into my bases. With all of this in mind, gates are less efficient in terms of cost, build time and durability, but I still like having them with my walls for moving units to and fro the base.
Deleting and rebuilding one tile of palisade near working villagers is much safer and cheaper.
@@Jacks_Suffocating_Nihilism
not really.
if you punch out 4 walls and replace you will have spent 16 wood and 49 seconds just on having a wall be there, and have extra travel time.
you also have to micro a lot more for big troop movements
Im here to hear "spirit of the law here". Well he's voice really calming me down. Dude you are really should cast programs about nature :).
The moment when you realize you're having a rating of over 1700 elo thus spirit of the law maybe has inspected your play xD
I have an idea for a new mechanic if they want to changes things up a lot. Make walls able to hold a garrison of troops, and have the capacity be determined by the length of the wall. However troops are evenly dispersed along the wall and may not be able to target the same enemy all at the same time. This will prevent huge sections of walls from being overpowered and still make towers useful for shoring up the defense of an area.
4:01
Having such a easily wallable map is everyone's wet dream.
A really thorough look at another facet of the game! Great video, keep up the good work!
4:30
But you did have a villager that had something to do almost right next to it? The vill that was walling the wall right on the other side of the forest :D
So the only "wasted" walking was around the pieces of forest that did not need to be walled, but unless you have vills farming directly next to a wall tile, that might be a reasonable distance to walk for other random villagers to walk already (so unless you have archer raidable resource tiles you are collecting from).
Hey law we love you keep making content :) your my favorite content creator for aoe2 and 100% the most thourough in your testing. Id love to see more DE edition stuff but im happy with anything you produce. Keep up the good work man
Ah opportunity cost, we meet again... well played. Great video SOTL, my day always gets better when I see a new video by you. Plus always something new to learn :)
In some competitive RTS, building positioning to act as walls are integral to the game. A classic example would be starcraft broodwar terran on lost temple, where it is mandatory to close the gap with a barracks and supply depot. Neat and efficient walling techniques are part of any defense in AOE 2, and it is a mental challenge figuring out how to wall properly given map generation is random. Walling a bigger area might give you a larger space to expand, but it correspondingly takes up more resources and may make it harder to defend if your villager is too far away. They key here is opportunity cost as you have well mentioned and calculated. I would even dare to say, if you can counter military with military and react well, there is no need to palisade wall too much in dark/feudal age, and save villagers with quickwall techniques as needed. Wall what is needed at the moment, to secure wood and gold, and in castle age, expand safely with more Town Centres at strategic locations.
Edit: Since we are on the topic of walling, you might want to cover quick walling techniques and how to efficiently make use of them. There is indeed a science to it, besides mechanical skill and reflexes. example: building a gate perpendicularly to a wall being breached by enemy archers support, stone wall vs palisade wall, stone gate to make an emergency effective barrier against a large melee force, walling to remove aggo from boar or kill boar, walling villagers under threat, walling to cut off enemy units, walling to trap enemy units, offensive walling to protect towers/siege units, so on and so forth, walling to preemptively protect villagers building castles/tcs/structures under possible threat.
Hey Spirit! Your AoE HD vids brought me here,
sooo glad you also covering DE now! Subbed!
I have a hypothetical for you, how much would the game change if Palisades and Walls actually reduced incoming ranged damage? Say palisades reduced enemy ranged attack power by 15% and 30% for walls, maybe making Foritified Walls upgrade affect it. The wall would need to be in the direct path of the ranged attack, and the wall would need to be either OWNED or a FRIENDLY faction to apply the bonus to the defending unit. You could apply hidden stats to units that are naturally more inclined to Indirect style attacking like onagers, archers and trebuchets to make them slightly more effective in those situations.
I was waiting for this video, keep up the good work spirit.
Also, a top 5 or 10 of your best unique units would be amazing. And maybe a video saying with wich other normal/trash unit you can use complement the faults of each unique units and make a great combo. For example Konniks with long swords man that can kill pikesman!!
Villager: oh just cutting up this tree that will lead your base open.
When he says let’s check it out and the screen dims... oooh yeah: intro music!!!!
tirips of the Wal
Great video as always! Some friends of mine just bought the game and we were trying different gameplay styles with the custom scenario maps. It would be really cool if you did another video about your favorites custom maps (I know you did one already, but with DE I think it calls for an update)
Biggest cost of stone walling is now you have to mine stone or trade at the market to build your first two town centers. So wood for the mining camp, “idle” time collecting stone.
Did you write your own intro song? Its bloody great.
I always wondered what videos the separate slides in the intro correspond to.
Could also make a video analyzing black forest walls and how much in total it costs / sets you back when you send 2 vills early to wall. (i know its a niche topic but so was the double H farming video and similar stuff xD )
Whenever you think he must have covered everything about this game he shows up with another topic! Just awesome
I think you should talk as well about the effects. example: How much res do you loose, if the scouts of your enemie kill 2 vils because you did not wall. And compare this with the cost in a period till early castle age where u have more tcs. so the vils dont count as much any morge.i know this needs a little more interpretation, but its the actually interesting question, as you dont wall because of itself but because you wanna avoid this loss of vils.
you know a topic I would love to see covered is the economic impact on monk healing. Could be an interesting subject to to the math on though it would be pretty damn complicated to calculate the resource per second value of a monk and how it would affect combat situation
I feel the opportunity cost of having the villager building the wall is slightly more complicated than explored. What could the player do with the extra resources from not building the wall? Perhaps a faster upgrade or something.
Agreed. This could be addressed with a full simulation using two scenarios on the same map seed - walled and unwalled - with the goal of fastest FC time. It's difficult to capture second-order effects with simple algebra.
I love the intro!
Great videos man! thank you!
Is there a way to more efficiently queue multiple separate wall constructs with a single villager? After queueing all the walls, one must specify the order in which they are built, queueing each palisade individually. Otherwise, the villager will build the first palisade of one wall and then move onto the next wall and so on.
Sometimes I forget to wall, mostly in campaigns lol
I never try walling with palisades tho
Surprising to not discuss the hp comparison between palisades, stone walls, and fortified walls. They cost more than palisades sure but the value of stone walls seems higher to me overall for their high hp.
love your vids spirit !
Would be interesting to see an analysis of resources lost by walling compaired to being drushed.
I don't know if this will help me as a player, but it will definitely help me as a human being.
House walls are a brazilian special tech dubbed "favela complex", you can also use them to funnel people into tight corridors for diminishing the effect of numbers
Love the intro
00:55 I just realized that's a skermisher, I thought he was holding an RPG
I often don get house walling... I know they can take a beat down, but you are losing 5 population capacity and that can wear down your retaliation capacity towards a raid or rush...
Updated stats should show that palisades are closer to 7 resources now, due to balance patches since then.
5 stone.
Edit: Yeah okay It is more complicated than that.
Can you do a benefit analysis? Is there a way to quantify what benefit you get from walling?
so, my question is how much resources id save from late walling instead of fully walling on dark age? villager time worth's more in early than late but how much walling too soon is hurting my army?
Could you make a video about Post-Imperial combat tactics? And another one about best use of walls for late game?
250 resources in somewhat readily available wood and food in the dark and feudal age seems about right and also high value. A scout or archer push might only take few seconds to kill a piece of the palisade but it will provide a ping to you if you aren't watching and give time to move in defenses or evacuate villagers, easily saving the lives of 5 woodcutters or gold miners. Even a later knight attack in castle age still falls victim to the old palisade so definitely worth doing.
Just a quick note the costs are even higher... since there are no opportunity costs included. As in if you wouldn't gather the wood but instead food you could have potentially made more villagers in time and those would have gathered resources on top of your building cost and time of creation wasted. Or instead of collecting stone for the walls you could have mined gold and built or upgrade stuff that either impacted your military or economy etc.
Is it faster to wall with houses than palisade walls? What's the matchup? Houses are twice as thick and you save time on not building walls since you have to build houses anyways and avoids ever getting housed. Are 19 houses (pop cap of 100) enough to wall with? All houses above that don't save you on wall building time since they are unnecessary. Let's say 20 houses as a buffer.
I need a part 2.
The other problem with the first inefficient wall in particular, is the use of resources as barriers, if you are collecting those resources. They are an obstruction....for now. Are you going to keep on top of fixing the holes when they have been collected?
With berries I 100% agree they shouldn't be part of a wall.
Isn't a barracks on a diagonal length of wall a bad idea since it has so much exposed area to be attacked? If it goes down quicker than a piece of palisade and leaves a much bigger gap for a lot of units to rush in.
This slap chop commercial that I just watched was actually really entertaining
Hey Spirit of the Law, I have a question regarding AoE 2 but it has to do with something a bit odd - what buildings and units create more stress on a computer? I ask because last night I played a goofy match with friends, all of us doing dumb stuff, where I built a giant block of palisade walls and mills. The animation of the flapping palisade flags (one on every wall block) and the mills turning caused the game to slow down dramatically. When my friend brought his giant horse cavalry army into the Lag Fort, it caused the game to basically become a slideshow, with barely one frame every eight seconds. I know that lag can be determinate on the slowest user's PC, the map size (we were on a ludicrous map), internet connection, and I know if you're playing with more units, obviously the computer has more to process, but can things like certain units and certain structures lag the game?
I build usually 2 or 3 sections of my front wall with houses and a barrack. Then when I hit fedual the 1 or 2 workers if they are Still needing to get defences up I assign them to build Wooden walls. even feudal age agression if they swoop down with say 8 or 9 man at arms
then walls will be taken down usually within 10 to 15 seconds which may not be enough time to get vills to house wall behind it. Also archers get through it within a min So if your reacting to it with skirms likely You didn't get enough to counter him.
Never been this early
SOTL says that 1700+ in team games is in the top 20% of players. Where can I see the ELO percentile distribution of DE?
Hey spirit, thanks for all the videos recently! I would have a wish/idea for a future video. I find that often my economy is very one sided (e.g. 3000 wood but 500 food) especially in castle age and after. I was wondering if there is some perfect ratio so that the economy is balanced. Obviously I could just take 10 lumber jacks and build more farms e.g. but maybe there is a better more mathy way. Of course economy is also dependent on unit choice/amount of military buildings etc.
Anyway greetings from Germany, keep it up;)
I love this intro
The best defense is scout your enemy, if he is building a barrack then you make palissades, if he is booming then you should not make palissades, in this case or you rush him or you boom as well
Mr. Law, hi, how to beat on early agression? I always loose to a few scouts (avg 2 :( that's all it takes) killing my villagers early on?
I can't even wall up by the time I have the scouts attacking me