I have noticed you do NOT have African scholars who are current experts in Nubia and Egypt. Please make an effort to invite each of these scholars on your show: *Dr. Shomarka Omar Y Keita* *Dr. Shadia Taha* Trinity College Cambridge University *Salah Ahmed* (Nubian Archaeologist) *Dr. Abdul Raman Ali* , Director of Sudan National Museum *Robin Walker* African Scholar and Historian *Stuart Tyson Smith* (Archaelogists and specialist between Nubia and Kemet)
It's amazing how Eurocentric scholars got defeated by Diop and Obenga in every debate, especially the one in UNESCO (look it up), and Bruce William wrote "Lost Pharaohs of Nubia" and won every debate whenever he was challenged, proving that the ancient Greeks were right about Egypt being founded by Nubians (aka Aethiopians), but we still here people denying what was basically general history until the 18th and 19th century scholars decided (not proved) Egypt was not Black-African
Diop was a racist Black Marxist crank who was rejected by 98 percent of the World's Scientists at the UN. A fake conference instigated by Diop. Hotepism is a mythology of gangbanging.
The Greek historians and traveler Herodotus mention it that Greeks get there religious and geometry from ancient Egypt, Pythagoras spent 22 years in Egypt studying math and philosophy. The first Greek philosopher Thales study in Egypt where you learn math and philosophy. He also correctly predict the solar eclipse which he learn from Egypt
So, let me guess, the Egypts were black and the greek aristocracy were black too, right?! I know exactly your thinking, black boy! What you forget is the fact that the greeks or the several nations of Hellas created such an mythology to an very late time.
The only thing right about black Athena is that there was cultural contact and exchange which is common sense. None of his critics deny that. They deny that Egypt colonized Greece and other ridiculous claims in the book. She spent the whole video saying "well hes not exactly wrong because there was cultural exchange" but didn't bring up hardly any of the outlandish claims.
@@g-rexsaurus794 glad you named that fallacy I didn't even know it existed but I've noticed this before and didn't know it was an actual fallacy. Thanks, I'll keep it saved in my debate repertoire to point out this fallacy when I see it from now on.
@@g-rexsaurus794"The motte-and-bailey fallacy (named after the motte-and-bailey castle) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy where an arguer conflates two positions which share similarities, one modest and easy to defend (the "motte") and one much more controversial (the "bailey").[1] The arguer advances the controversial position, but when challenged, they insist that they are only advancing the more modest position.[2][3] Upon retreating to the motte, the arguer can claim that the bailey has not been refuted (because the critic refused to attack the motte)[1] or that the critic is unreasonable (by equating an attack on the bailey with an attack on the motte).[ The fallacy has been described as an instance of equivocation, more specifically concept-swapping, which is the substitution of one concept for another without the audience realizing." It is a logical fallacy and the definition of intellectual dishonesty is purposely using fallacious logic. Using logical fallacies is by definition dishonest. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
I've recently discovered Luwian Studies. The archaeologists who started it said that originally, in the 1800's, Europeans were looking for the origins of European history. They read the Iliad and paid attention to the Mycenaeans & Achaeans and their allies because they were "European" but completely ignored the Trojans and their allies because they were "Not European." But when the archaeologists started paying attention to who the Trojans and their allies were, as listed in the Iliad, they discovered rich cultures that had been ignored by archaeology for 200+ years. (It's a little like studying WWII and insisting we are ONLY going to study the war in Europe, because that was "European." But we are going to ignore the War in the Pacific because that was "Not European.")
@Ario YES, but Schliemann was interested in it only as it related to European history. Again the Iliad listed dozens of tribes & people that were allies of Troy they never investigated. Only the European Mycenaean & Achaeans and their allies were investigated because they were the predecessors to the Greeks and democracy.
@The Study of Antiquity and the Middle Ages : Yes, you video was one of the first I encountered. I went and viewed it again: Great work! Luwians and the Bronze Age Collapse ~ Dr Zangger th-cam.com/video/71w6kWWlr-0/w-d-xo.html
It would be astounding if Greek civilization were not heavily influenced by more ancient civilizations such as existed in Egypt, Asia Minor, Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley, and it would also be astounding if these civilizations didn't also influence each other.
You have to remember that in Classical Greece and Rome, the early ancient civilizations were just that, "ANCIENT" and since at that time there were no Archaeological Studies, or real documented historical studies any suggestions of influences is speculative at best.
I dislike the attempt to frame Egypt as a “black” civilization when North Africa and the Middle East are easily both genetically distinct enough to both separate them from sub-Saharan Africa and to admit that their is a lot of genetic interplay. It’s just a rephrasing of the german attempt to use it for nationalism in a modern context, and I don’t know why people try to frame it as such when civilizations of great power and cultural prestige arose in Africa everywhere from Sudan; Axum; West Africa incl the Mali and the Empire of Ghana; the Central African state of Kongo and the Swahili states. I almost feel as if the legacy and standards people set for civilization inherently compare it with western models or alternatively Asian ones. The differences between civilizations and their expectations were so distinct, why would we try to frame other civilizations who are external to these “supposed” racializEd groupings, when anthropologically speaking race only became a relevant factor in the 1500s on?
The genetic evidence clearly shows that Egypts ruling class outside the 25th Dynasty was not Black , even the extent mummies clearly show this. Not that it matters, but to state otherwise for political motivations is anti-academic. Black Africa has great civilizations outside of Egypt.
This is a great point. "Race" is such a modern concept, historically speaking, and I think it can be tough to remember that in our super racially-focused world. Still, it's neat to consider the idea of Athena originating somewhere outside of the Greco-Roman.
Eli Hinze another interesting thing is the way that the ruling greek Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt tried to meld the greek and Egyptian gods together and integrate them into one religion.
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EVERY TIME! Its sucking the joy out of this learning experience to hear her thoughts on what isn't vs what we know. To much nope and supposition, not enough history/archeology.
Your not wrong but historically peoples in that region are not labeled as such. I guess it's like Canadians, I have never heard of them referred to as North Americans, although it is true Canada is on the Northern part of the America's.
Does any modern scholar pretends that ancient greece didnt have any influence from egypt? It seems to me that Dr Kennedy tends to project modern political topics on her research topics. If you look at the books she published, they are all related to gender, ethnicity and race. Claiming everyone is racist and non stop talking about race doesnt aound like a constructive discussion.
funny thing is the influences its not really ever denied even in early studies but because the actual influence is less direct and handed down several times over, its just easily projected to be a conspiracy and gets sensationalized and even over emphasized to satiate current year emotional biases.
They actually do, so maybe you should actually listen to what is being said in the video. It's not that Athena was black, but that Egypt and thus Africa was seen as the big influence on classic society, by those societies themselves and all evidence points to that as well. It is a bit odd to me that those are still issues in the discourse in the US where elsewhere in the world this discussion was settled in the 1970's. But I guess that's how History channel started to propagate aliens as builders of pyramids. Anything to prevent native Africans or other non white people get credit for their achievements.
@@kwadwo9681 her whole premise is a ad hominem against greeks. And yours to by supporting her. Dont even try to go there and test my intellegence i will crush you like the rest of this subversive postmodern woke degenerate revisionists. "Kwadwo"
Wasn't there continuous habitation on the Aegean that preceded Phoenician colonizing across the Med? Doesn't that completely refute this horseshit thesis?
Sarapis(greek god)= Asar+Apus (both are Kemetic/Egyptian dieties) It is absurd to conclude that Greece was not heavily influenced by Kemet and for many reasons other than the above.
Why should Egypt be separated from the rest of Africa. The origins of pre-dynastic egypt are deeply rooted in Africa with the worship of distinctly African deities based on animals found in Africa. Not to mention the oldest mummy in the world is a "black" boy from 5,000 BC the Juan Mahujaj mummy had the same evisceration mummification that became common place in Egypt. Egypt was multicultural from the 1st Dynasty till the end.
Absolutely, and why, do we think that if they were dark like Don Cheedle or tan like Zahi Hawass, or pale like John Turturro that we can lay claim to their greatness? We have our own cultures true it is influenced by Egypt but it is seperate and great by as well.
Africa is pointless concept, what makes it useful enough to be used here? As a continent it's directly connected to West Asia and Egypt experienced more contact with West Asia than it did with 80% of Africa.
@@g-rexsaurus794 that is completely false. There is extensive research about inner africa's dealings with Egypt. Their founding myth is about the south. They have many heiroglyphs dedicated to the Lybians, Cushites, Pygmies of the south, there are linguistic and cultural links to west africa and the songhai, there are cloth animal skins, gold, ivory, iron and jewels that come from inner africa.
@@g-rexsaurus794 The Nile flows from Kenya and Ethipia how do you expect them not to have extensive contact with civilizations that could cut off the source of their way of life.
@@bensondavido4525 Lybians and Cushites were in the 20% of Africa that Egypt had contact with, also I'm not sure where you came up with the idea that Egypt had contact with "pygmies"(where even?) Also Songhay is not contemporary with ancient Egypt but sure.
There is little doubt that ancient Greece was influenced by Egypt and Middle Eastern civilizations,, the Egyptians employed Greeks as mercenary troops and the Greeks returned to Greece with great knowledge of mathematics, building techniques, and other trades and traditions... Also seafaring Greeks did robust trade with the Levant. However Bernal implies that Egypt was an Black culture and society which is patently false and there is little evidence anthropologically, archaeologically, or otherwise to support this, or to support the idea that Greece was a satellite society of Phoenicia or Egypt. Greece was already on the doorstep of the great IndoEuropean culture of the Hittites, and there is emerging evidence that Celtic culture was far more advanced and cultured that we have originally thought, and Greece was undoubtedly influenced by Gauls, Scythians, and Thracians, to a great extent as the breath of Macedonian civilization shows. The idea that Egypt was anything other than a culture ruled by Dynastic families other than IE/Euro-phenotypes (mixture of EEF/WHG/IE) outside the 25th dynasty is patently ridiculous, every dynastic mummy shows this is true, and the emerging genetic evidence is clear, there was a gradual browning of Egyptian over the course of its history and not the reverse. Ancient Egyptians were genetically closer to modern Europeans than modern Egyptians are. Many dynastic mummies have red hair which is a strictly Nordic/Celtic phenotype. Instead of trying to prove that Egypt was a Black culture, we should acknowledge that Northern Africa was markedly more European in the Bronze age than has been previously imagined... That would make things more logical historically and it will eventually prevail academically. Lefkowitz explains this with ease in "Not Out Of Africa".
@Spoony G I don't get your question...DNA is a closed case argument; NO INDIGENOUS PHARAOH remains where ever found to match any typically European dna structures.....The isn't a single bona fide statue of a white person predating 2500 BC; as for Blacks: The listing of Africoid statues (Pharaohs & Family), predating 2500 BC, is endless - Narmer First Pharaoh of Egypt, 3100 BC: i.pinimg.com/originals/5e/33/cd/5e33cde4b79333a7f0e65c3c943eeced.jpg Pharaoh Djoser 2630 BC: i.pinimg.com/originals/50/ec/27/50ec2765110748fc84dcedb26434b183.jpg Pharaoh Khafre 2558 BC: www.flickr.com/photos/24729615@N00/26598985805 Notice how white supremisists will try an give you a side photo of this image to hide the nostrils Pharaoh Menakure 2575 BC: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menkaure#/media/File:Menkaura_Bust_Closeup.jpg Pharaoh Huni 2613 BC: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huni#/media/File:Huni-StatueHead_BrooklynMuseum.png Pharaoh Sahure 2500 BC: i.pinimg.com/originals/01/ee/d5/01eed5119dc5272d6c464b2d72f0b6de.jpg Pharaoh Djedefre 2575 BC: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djedefre#/media/File:Djedefre_sphinx_head-E_12626-IMG_4294-gradient.jpg en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djedefre#/media/File:Djedefra_wearing_the_crown_of_Lower_Egypt-E_11167-IMG_9702-gradient.jpg Sphinx of Giza: tr.pinterest.com/pin/154952043410537491/ th-cam.com/video/ANTWp4X-xj0/w-d-xo.html Pharaoh Amenemhat III 1860 BC: www.pinterest.com/pin/405886985146278405/ Pharaoh Amenhotep III 1386 BC: www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/544477 Queen Tiye 1386 BC: johnoehler.com/novels/papyrus/ Imhotep's mother (Khereduankh): i.pinimg.com/originals/dd/17/c2/dd17c29f2f62db33e93f701d427b52ef.jpg i.pinimg.com/originals/07/59/26/075926656e2b9f4dc28aad26eb54639f.png Imhotep's Boss (Pharaoh Djoser 2630 BC): i.pinimg.com/originals/50/ec/27/50ec2765110748fc84dcedb26434b183.jpg Imhotep: www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/depiction-of-the-god-imhotep-bronze-26th-dynasty-imhotep-news-photo/871634468?adppopup=true www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/depiction-of-the-god-imhotep-bronze-26th-dynasty-imhotep-news-photo/590679819?adppopup=true
@@inigomulaisho2809 Go and look at an actual picture of Thuya and Yuya, they are blonde and red haired respectively. More Europeans are related to Tutankhamen than are not, its in the region of 70%. Less than 5% of modern Egyptians are related to the line of Tutankhamen. You guys really reach though... have a look for yourself, and tell me what African Black has wavy Caucasoid hair like this? th-cam.com/video/3gmJB1DHhAw/w-d-xo.html&feature=emb_title You can argue about facial structures all you want but you cant argue with the genetics coming out www.nature.com/news/mummy-dna-unravels-ancient-egyptians-ancestry-1.22069#:~:text=Both%20types%20of%20genomic%20material,with%20modern%20sub%2DSaharan%20Africans.&text=The%20mixing%20of%20ancient%20Egyptians,mummies%20from%20Abusir%20el%2DMeleq. The increase of African Black genes happened after Roman rule www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694 read it and weep www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/scientists-thought-ancient-egyptian-mummies-didn-t-have-any-dna-left-they-were-wrong These are the first results typing in DNA of Egyptian Mummies on Google.
No Just NO. It is different to say that there were African AND Anatolian influences in Greek civilazation (of course there were). And is completely differen to support than Greek civilazation is an African civilazation, which is black Athina thesis. Greek Civilization was an "indoeuropean" Mediterranean civilization as the Etruscans were, Frygian, and other similar nations. Come on that is not science, is not history or archaeology any more, this is politics.
Agreed. She uses terms in an overly generalised way which is problematic. Also, there's a core assumption that Egypt was pure, true, and eternal and doesn't have Mediterranean influences. The theory of civilisation, at least since Victorian times, have always viewed civilisation as coming from the Mid East and Egypt. There's a problem with her introduction to Indo-European language and culture. Ayran doesn't mean German, it means Indian. It think she's only read political material and is not familiar with the arguments.
@@sarad6627 FYI Aryans weren't Indians, or rather Dravidian, they were Indo-European chariot riders that came sweeping down from somewhere on the Pontic Steppe, but because they spread blue eyes into the Indian subcontinent we also know they had genes from European hunter-gatherers, as well as Indo-European. So I suspect this came about not because they were in central Europe themselves, but they were in contact with the Indo-European cultures that were, maybe through a trade network, and the genes spread that way. Anyway, Sanksrit is Indo-European and the Vedic gods and stuff that derived from them is also from the same source as European religions, that's why the gods all ride chariots. One of Indra's titles was "plunderer of walled cities" and also they may have brought veneration of cows as they were a herding people. Even today the priestly Brahman class in the North, who consider themselves Aryan, have about 20% Indo-European DNA, because they swept in from the north. Pretty sure Indus Valley Civ. had already expired by then.
@@Sinsteel You need to remove the Indian Nationalism from your definitions. "Indian=Dravidian" No, populations are much more complex than that. "IE=blue-eye Europeans that invaded India" Again, populations are more complex than that. "chariot riders sweeping down" Again, too simplistic to describe the populations in the Indus Valley.
Keep up the great work and cool content you’re putting out on this channel. The valid and compelling arguments about classics and race are ALL worth listening to...the others that focus on negativity and not education- F em.
The title is clickbait , however what Dr Futo discuss is very interesting , but makes a nerdy video title.What i like the most is the books recommendation and the controversy discussion.
Ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Phoenicians …etc are Arabic nations. They are Canaanite Arabs, who migrated from the Arabian peninsula, and founded all of these civilizations. Even their languages are greatly similar to Modern Standard Arabic. Even though the calligraphy is different. And they influenced the Greek civilization. And many even lived there. Regarding the color, Arabs are warm white and this is how they described themselves in classic Arabic literature. And Arabs, before Islam was revealed and before it taught them to abandon racism, were racist against black Africans and they called them black. Distinguishing themselves from them. However, because Arabs are warm white and not snow white, they tan easily from the sun therefore some non Arabic nations viewed them as brown. Of course nowadays probably most Arabs are very white because of mixing. And some Arabs are dark brown also by mixing. Also, this is not the first time Arabs influence the west. You can read About “Alandalus” and how the modern western civilization emerged from this Arabic and Muslim golden age and civilization. Response to “M B” will be written here so no one erases it again: There is a linguistic link between the mentioned civilizations. Also there are many Arab professors who transcribed ancient Egyptian to Modern Standard Arabic. For example, Dr. Mohamed Bahjat Alqubaisi. He has publications and TH-cam translated videos discussing this issue. You can check his books in the link below. If you don’t read Arabic just copy his name and paste it on TH-cam and watch his translated videos. They are translated to English. د. محمد بهجت القبيسي. www.noor-book.com/%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A8-%D8%AF-%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF-%D8%A8%D9%87%D8%AC%D8%AA-%D9%82%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%B3%D9%8A-pdf Also, the Hebrew language is linked to ancient Arabic. Because the prophet Ibrahim is the grandfather of Jews and Ishmaelite Arabs. Further, the Arabs are the founders of the ancient Greek civilization and the colors mentioned are very much Arabic. Do you know about the following Arabic civilizations? Iram The Abbasid Empire The Umayyad empire Some of these were the greatest in the world in their time, and some of the European counties used to pay the Arab emperor to protect them.
There is no language connection to any of these civilization to arabic or else they would be able to decipher the hieroglyphs in egypt without outside help. The cananite/phoenician is closer to hebrew than arabic. Also Herodotus and the greek historians already told you what they looked like.
@@Na-du9fs there is zero evidence Egyptians we’re Arabs lol especially the pictures with Afros on the walls and none of their dna is do Arabs lol. The evidence don’t stand on nothing you said lol. I read glyphs lol do you? How about you show in the text where they say they come from. You can’t! Lol
I Sincerely, wonder why 99.9999% of statues, cited as evidence, of a white Ancient Egypt, are one-offs I truly wonder why over 97% of these white statues are of non entities eg scribes but never Pharaohs :) I emphatically wonder why 99% of these white statues are always "discovered" in hidden places under murky circumstances I simply wonder why 100% of these statues; are of a forgeable size, nothing the size of the Sphinx of Giza I am truly amazed at the fresh out of the box appearance, of these white AE statues; earthquakes were kind to them..... I wonder why, like magic, they were only discoverable in the 1800s When are we going to discover, the Ancient Egyptian hieroglyph for face with a undeniable representation of a European face :(
@@joelhungerford8388 and they aren't? Transatlantic slave trade, colonialism, neocolonialism and the stigmatisation of the dark skin was the whole world in love with us?
Thanks for the video.! It is an interesting topic I was not aware of. I still think Black Athena is a lot of wishful thinking, as one thing is to acknowledge the great influence the culture of Egypt and the Middle East had in Ancient Greece, that I assume most people do, to say that Greece is essentially a black culture, which is jumping to unsupported conclusions, and good intentions (fighting racism is always laudable) is not an excuse for sloppy thinking. I bet the same people would be mad if I say that modern Africa or Asia are European-American due to the enormous influence the European civilization had in them. Nevertheless, nice videos and keep going. You have my thumbs up.
Well the latter wouldn't make sense since western civilisation did not invent or create any of these disciplines. Developing is a different thing entirely. I wouldn't say looting and plundering nations is akin to influencing.
@@BF-bb5us Persia plunder ancient greece, and that did not make the persian influence non existent. Current global culture is a western development. Modern industry is a western development. Science and engineering is a western development, which not make it less true as the best understanding of reality we have. That do not make the horrors of colonization less horrible. All human cultures have good and bad points. Let's take good and remember the bad.
@@tychoides it wasn't an enormous impact whatsoever. These so called developments are not western! These ideas have been fostered because of the global community no way a western development. Ideas have been extracted from elsewhere. That's just indoctrination.
@@BF-bb5us Yeah right... Asia is booming because it westernized. It bring the good things of Western civ and mix them with their our culture to make something new. Guess what, this is what people has done since we have history. The middle east is isolated and its trying to upgrade the islamic traditions to a open world, without a lot of success. Africa is getting their shit together after being colonies, and they are irrelevant for the wide world (a least in southamerica were I live Africa is a place nothing more). India is isolated and they chill doing their thing, as they have done for thousand of year but nothing comming from India except food and ridiculous Bollywood movies. Latinamerica produce some soft cultural like food and music, with some contribution to literature, and nothing more. We are trapped in low invesment rentist economies whose elites are happy to manage what there is and people is happy to consume american pop culture happilly. People ate more american fast food that traditional food. We are already assimilated to western culture. So much for a global community.
@@tychoides the western world would be nothing without these other nations absolutely nothing, Asia contributes a lot to the west not the other way round. Some African nations have the highest gdp and are doing very well economically. Goes to show that people are led by things they're told and not actual facts. I have no idea who is going around eating American food which is horrendous. You have some interesting ideas on the world which is not true or accurate.
What I don’t really understand is why race even matters. Yeah the Greeks were influenced by the Egyptians, ethnicity really only tells you when certain ethnic groups conquered other ethnic groups, historically speaking, most people didn’t move outside their ethnic areas, and still don’t. So if Greece was influenced by Egypt and/or vice versa, isn’t the cultural exchange and influence on technology more important than what color of skin people are? I simply don’t agree with apologists or radicalism on either side. History is about what people did and who they were as a people, less about what color their appendages were. I understand the importance of studying ethnicity in a historical context, but outside of saying yeah some Greeks are buried here in Afghanistan or vice versa and understanding the actual historical impact of that, what does race matter so much? I think if you go back to Paleolithic and pre antiquity periods to study migrations, that’s a different story because you are tracing a people’s identity in their living areas. I don’t know I kinda rambled a long time to essentially say who cares about race.
The guy claimed Greece was an Egyptian colony and that Greeks basically didn't come up with anything on their own. His only evidence is proof they had contact. This Aryan centricity non sense is crockery that was only popular among actual Nazis. Why would you have it presented by someone who's expertise is environmental studies and gender studies? 😖 knowing classical literature is only one part of history. Can you please get a real history, linguistics or archaeology professor on? I came here for history, not sociology and hearing about academic racism that doesn't exist. I know she's trying but have her there for a video on Karl Marx, critical theory or something else she actually has expertise in. I wouldn't want a gender studies professor teaching my kids about history. Ask her what critical pedagogy is. In other words with her beliefs she has a moral duty to politicize teaching and give a bias slant 😖 "Rebecca Futo Kennedy is Associate Professor of Classics, Women's and Gender Studies, and Environmental Studies at Denison University" en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Futo_Kennedy
She’s smarter and better qualified than your version of her, and your version of her is smarter and better qualified than you. You’re like a kid failing high school math trying to criticize your teacher for not being a college professor without realizing they both have the same degrees. Whomp whomp.
@@MasterShake9000 using Bette and Motte fallacy to downplay the ridiculousness of the Black Athena and making it sound like all he was saying is Greece had cultural Tues to Egypt when the book literally says Greeks are Egyptian colonists 🙄 Funny you should bring up mathematics, I'm actually an engineer. But yeah I did get As in my history classes like ever other class. I can identify intellectual dishonesty when I see it.
Alexander Ledvina if you were anywhere near as smart as you claim to be, you’re video watching comprehension skills would have shown that this professor you’re trying to smear as some idiot liberal feminist explicitly stated that the book that’s triggering you was bad history. Unfortunately given she used academic terms in an academic discourse, this was apparently too subtle for someone like you who’s clearly been conditioned by Fox News and 4chan to only register criticism when it involves, you know, somehow managing to only focus on the woman herself and misunderstanding the difference between a job title and her actual qualifications and education. I know men like you need to see women as beneath you because a real woman never is, but please try to keep up with the rest of us who have moved on from your TH-cam 2010 debating tactics (which were failures back then as well). Also the only BS you’re seeing is from a mirror, not a computer screen.
The widespread use of ‘sub-Sahara Africa’ makes no sense and is undoubtedly a geopolitical It appears increasingly fashionable in the West for a number of broadcasters, websites, news agencies, newspapers and magazines, the United Nations/allied agencies and some governments, writers and academics to use the term ‘sub-Sahara Africa’ to refer to all of Africa except the five historically modern Arab states of north Africa (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt) and the Sudan formally Nubia, a north-central African country. Even though its territory is mostly located south of the Now Sahara Desert, the Sudan is excluded from the ‘sub-Sahara Africa’ tagging by those who promote the use of the epithet because the regime in power in Khartoum describes the country as ‘Arab’ despite its majority African population. But the concept ‘sub-Sahara Africa’ is absurd and misleading, if not a meaningless classificatory schema. Its use defies the science of the fundamentals of geography but prioritises hackneyed and stereotypical racist labelling. It is not obvious, on the face of it, which of the four possible meanings of the prefix ‘sub’ its users attach to the ‘sub-Sahara Africa’ labelling. Is it ‘under’ the Sahara Desert or ‘part of’/‘partly’ the Sahara Desert? Or, presumably, ‘partially’/‘nearly’ the Sahara Desert or even the very unlikely (hopefully!) application of ‘in the style of, but inferior to’ the Sahara Desert, especially considering that there is an Arab people sandwiched between Morocco and Mauritania (northwest Africa) called Saharan?
It's no coincidence that Greek gods were copycats of Egyptian gods. The founders of the first cities like Athens were likely African. No different from the British founding/developing Hong Kong before handing it back to the indigenous Chinese. I don't get the controversy and butthurt comments from many ppl on the thread.
Academic reviews of Bernal's work generally reject his heavy reliance on ancient Greek mythology, speculative assertions, and handling of archaeological, linguistic, and historical data.
Bernal's attack on the 'Aryan model' is universally accepted in academia as the strongest aspects of his book. She says his linguistics were wrong. His speculative assertions were logical but relied on inaccurate linguistics.
I'm sure Dr. Kennedy has great knowledge and I agree with some of the stuff she said (both positive and negative), but i will not "give you a break" about Her language. Same way i would oppose any right wing ideologist trying to poison the well i will oppose her language. Maybe in the USA such a language is acceptable, but the USA is not the whole world. It is closer to the communist "Newspeak" (which I had the opportunity to experience personally) than to the language of science. The generalizations she uses are preposterously anti-scientific. I'd love(!) to learn more about the African (and Black) influences on the culture of Greece, Rome and all of Europe. I do not know anyone who would challenge the influence of other cultures on Europe and Greece. This does not mean that I will accept newspeak and generalizations that have nothing to do with science or history and are intended to divide, not bind us together.
I think the problem is in how the content from these other scholarship is received. No Scholar of antiquity has created a perfect understanding their subject. I recommend viewing these sorts of things as a different perspective, not an attempt to rewrite or force history. Read them and reflect on them, you may not agree with it, but it may open your perspective up. You read secondary sources just as you read primary ones, with a critical eye. No one is expecting you to drink this stuff down indiscriminately, merely giving other perspectives to mediate upon.
She offers opinion after opinion without evidence, as if her meager scholarship is enough to justify the nonsense spouted by those she agrees with. Her rationale is full of question begging.
@@vickru2133 She said that the book has a lot of bad ideas and the alternative model it presented was as problematic as the one it was challenging. what is bad in that? you people are crazy, you need help!!!
Finally someone who acknowledges the fundamental misrepresentations of Bernal by Mary Lefkowitz et al. and their motives while also being level headed about what Bernal got wrong! Such a sigh of relief, honestly.
athena become mixed race , neanderthal and black african , mauro = moro = mixed , The African culture in Greece was more rational for european to understend , thot , hermes , mercurio , platon , mentalism ext
Western White Lies have already destroyed and distorted history we are trying to rectify the wrongs of the white Scholars and people who have been lying about our story
in the theocratic societies of the east including Egypt the priest class owned everything, all the land belonged to them , anything of value was monopolized by the priest class , the general population was starving , CORPUS HERMETICUM was a farse propaganda of Ptolemy the first Soter to advance his personal Serapis religion for geopolitical purposes . For example a worker in Mesopotamia at around 600Bc got as salary one siklu PER MONTH ( from Greek σικλος σιγλος meaning bucket - specific volume trade container = todays shekel ) he copuld buy a couple of kilos wheat a couple of kilos shekel and a few litters of bad wine ) The ''black athena '' false theories written by Ptolemy were speeded by mistake by the Medici family and Ficino who mistook Hermetica for real while it was written by ptolemy. Today everybody knows its fake but the occultists* and the official masonry . LMgreekAO
Not Anatolian, but rather Natufian-like with further Levantine and East African influence, far closer to contemporary Levantines than to Horn Africans or West Africans.
No, it's impossible to have accurate genome of the original people. The DNA of Obama and Michelle cannot be the accurate description of America 3000 years in the future. The 2017 DNA you are referring to was based on 3 non royal mummies from lower Egypt and dated to Greco-Roman period.
Bernal's proposals in his book were not new only to archeologists but numerous Black scholars across a wide range of disciplines academia and otherwise (not just "Afrocentric radio") all over the world. The arguments were taken seriously (and it was a big threat) because he was white.
This is hard to take even remotely seriously. The good doctor becomes oddly agitated when insisting people remember that Egypt is, in fact, on the African continent. Does anyone really contest this? More seriously, she paints with very misleading brushes, and over broad they are. She repeats the absurd claim by Bernall that the "Greeks took their civilization from Egypt" and instead of explaining how ludicrous that is, she emphasizes that Egypt was influenced by the ancient Greeks -- which is not in doubt. She then puts the blame squarely where it belongs -- on some mysterious Aryan-Germanic whitewashing where the profoundly important Greek achievements sprang from nothing. It's hard to locate these people and sources are not provided as to exactly is pushing these ideas. Now, it is true: there was indeed a "Greek Miracle" that did bloom in the eastern Mediterranean and it was influenced by the neighboring cultures, but their accomplishments are so profound and departed from what came before in such remarkable ways, the term "miracle" is quite well deserved. A good example is the Greek alphabet. They basically took it from the Phoenicians script, but modified it by replacing certain unneeded consonants symbols for use as vowel sounds -- this gave rise to the first true alphabet. Thank you Greeks (from which the symbols used in this sentence are derived). One need only review things like the philosophy and science and math and engineering and art and architecture, and compare it with what came before to understand this. She tries to downgrade Greek accomplishments, and uses phrases like "so-called Western Civilization", support for which, in her very strange world view, is based on white supremacy. Recognizing the obvious Greek foundation of The West is called having a basic education. It doesn't matter if one is Jewish or German or American to do so. Not seeing it this way, she throws out charming observations like "just because you are Jewish doesn't mean you are not anti-black". Mangling history and accepting atrocious pseudo-scholarship should not be a prerequisite for being considered "not anti-black". Bernall is just one among many activist historians trying to make up for the paucity of accomplishments by sub-Saharan African civilizations. They attempt to use Egypt and its relationship with ancient Greece as a way to claim a greatness of their own. The problem is that Egyptians were not "black" Africans and their influence on Greece was real, but wildly overstated here. Voices like Cheikh Anta Diop with his books about a "black" Egypt and African civilizations were taken seriously by historians who were deathly afraid of being called "racist" if they were to be honest about the quality of the work he produced. When she says of Bernall: "On the archaeology stuff, he was not completely right", it is almost is comical. That's as far as can go when it is obvious the guy is on another planet. The whole video is a depressing example of how critical race theory and other forms of political bigotry and anti-scientiific prejudice are becoming influential in academia now. Hearing the incessant reduction of everything to some sort of battle against "white supremacy" gets old and is puerile on a good day. While the doctor seems to be having a good time with the material, it mostly shows what happens when a social justice warrior get a Phd. and a webcam.
Wow this is so politically charged. It seams like your trying to impose your current political and social views on history. There may be merit to what your saying but it’s so difficult to parse this with your personal views. Btw I love the channel mate
A very interesting interview and quite balanced as an intro. Sure she could be a bit less colloquial in her style (the issue is less Americanisms than a folksy style). That way she’d be less likely to be misunderstood by unfamiliar viewers. All told everything she said stands up within a good talk for lay people. As for some of the strident comments, I can only imagine TH-cam had a glitch and showed some folks the wrong video. I’ve been waiting for this topic for decades. Cool. I do hope she gets into some specifics in the next installment.
Great video!! I like how she calls out Mary Lefkowitz on her Greek Miracle theory, while at the same time while calling out the shortcomings of Black Athena. I hope you interview her more on these topics. Unfortunately race is a big topic in the field archaeology and to pretend like it doesn’t exist and avoid confronting it, would be a great intellectual dishonesty.
I would agree, but I think that from an anthropological standpoint it is important to acknowledge the race only became a significant idea in the 1500s and in looking at history before that, that it is our duty to recognize it as being a study relating to modern race relations rather than as affecting history.
The teacher was not sure when the book came out..She thinks in 1989 that she went to school at 1: 30 of video... However, the book was not published in 1989 as he thinks, but two years before: Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization (The Fabrication of Ancient Greece 1785-1985, Volume 1) Paperback - January 1, 1987 The teacher made a dialectical mistake in the first seconds of her speech....
There is always a red flag when someone writes outside of their field! Bernal did not want to call his book Black Athena as he argues for a Semitic culture. Somehow people of color in the middle east and North Africa became black. African does not mean black as African are not all black Africans.
Thank you for the discussion it’s always been discussed about the Near Eastern influences in Athena, it’s interesting hearing about Egyptian/African (because the Egyptian religion has deep roots and ties in Nubian religion) influences. People should be more open minded as all these cultures were intertwined and the Greeks are notorious for borrowing and loaning theological ideas. Thanks man!
Egypt is surely in Africa in a geographic sense, no one disputes that. And Egypt certainly had dealings with other Africans, interior/Sub-saharan and along the Mediterranean coast. But it largely grouped as part of the "fertile Crescent" and the "cradles of civilization", most of our historical sources are european or asian in comparison, and the 3 heavily influenced each other and wrote about each other. So it very easy to group Egypt in with the Mesopotamian/Asian and Greek/Europeans instead of Africans, in a Mediterranean centric viewpoint. This carried well past the bronze age. After all most of the Asian and European sources themselves did not have much contact with Africa south of Egypt, so why would they associate much historical documentation with them. Egypt was Egypt, they barely had a concept of Africa or geography. Sadly such sources like Library of Alexandria probably had more information on early African interactions, and perhaps much was lost from Phoenician/Carthage sources in their African migration.
Egyptian civilisation was not grouped as part of the "fertile crescent" that is purely a modern invention by eurocentric historians and the British museum. Egyptians were Africans and saw their kin as being the people to the south and interior of Africa not Asia. They spoke an African language and had an African culture. They had significant contact and trade and diplomatic/political relations with nations within sub-saharan africa moreso than anything they had with Asian nations.
@@jeromejenkins2539 "Egyptian civilisation was not grouped as part of the "fertile crescent" that is purely a modern invention by eurocentric historians and the British museum." "Fertile crescent" is a term that is contemporary, but describes the physical reality of the period. It isn't eurocentric because the fertile crescent isn't in Europe and makes no claims to be European. "Egyptians... saw their kin as being the people to the south and interior of Africa not Asia." No, there's zero evidence that the Egyptians saw themselves as Subsaharan Africans. "They spoke an African language and had an African culture." No, they spoke an Afroasiatic language like the rest of the Mid East. Culturally, they shared most with the Laurasian group than anything from the Congo. "They had ...relations with nations within sub-saharan africa moreso than anything they had with Asian nations." Their power and much of their trade was centred on the Mediterranean.
I guess this woman forgot that Heroditus also said the Lacadaemon peoples were Dorian, and that they came down from the North. *shrug* Also, DNA proved Egypt was not black African, though you will be lucky to find that stated anywhere, wouldn't want to hurt any feelings. Ok, how the hell would Egypt be more influential to the Greeks than the much closer and more similar culturally, linguistically, Hittites?
He does NOT say they came from the north. He says they were from South Thessaly, moved to NW Greece where they were called ~''Makedni'' (ethnos Makednon) and then moved south at some point. Essentially there is no source that places them outside what is now Greece.
Lie, no DNA proves that ancient Egyptians were not Black. They were Black and so shall it be until the end of time. Your 2017 DNA was about 3 mummies from Greco-Roman period in Egypt. Noting more than that
Why are we acting like white-Jewish people are a full on minority, their whiteness is there and is very much present. ( White people who happen to be Jewish need to acknowledge the Intersections) One example is Palestine, there are full on Caucasian European people that have colonized Palestine and have put her people through the most, but whenever they get called out “it’s anti-semitism,” because they happen to be Jewish. Black people can be anti-Semitic and any type of prejudice except racism, when will people understand that. Being Jewish is a religion, so it’s beyond to how is viewed as a race, cause there are black Jews, white Jews, it’s like saying Italian’s a race 😂.
@@rififienforce Yes except racism, if racism is systemic( checkout the definition of systemic racism before comment on my reply)it is impossible for a black person to be racist. Because race is a sensitive topic for some people, another example: woman can’t be misogynistic because we live in the patriarchy, every single guy is misogynistic including me but I gotta work on that and check myself out and say “woah hold on, do I really wanna say that?”, the next time I make a misogynistic joke or the next time I say something dumb about women and somebody calls me out. I gotta receive the criticism and do better, it really is that simple.
If you go to the British Museum in the Greek section. You'll see many clay pottery vases. Decorated with many black people portrait on them. Alongside other pictures of other races.
I couldn't tell what she was even trying to say through the video so i had to read the comments and piece together what i assume she was saying... And apparently its like, We wuz Kangs n shieet? Wut lol
Honestly, I don't think I was aware of race issues in classics when I took it in college. Nothing was ever mentioned. I'm glad to learn more about this and do more research.
On a positive note, this video made me think of the prevailing narratives on Greek colonization. Greek colonies tend to be portrayed as places were the "natives" were naturally dominated and assimilated by their superiors. Actual evidence, although limited, seems to contradict this narrative. It would be cool to look into both Greek colonization itself and how academia interprets it. Sicily and Ionia are the most interesting areas and also the only areas I've actually seen scholarly works on. What do you think? :)
@@g-rexsaurus794 While it would take a book to give a good answer I will say this. The most interesting and compelling evidence relates to Artemis Ephesia and her non-Hellenic origins: www.mcgill.ca/classics/files/classics/2005-6-05.pdf
@@MarinheiroMuculmano That doesn't disprove the idea that natives were the ones assimilating towards Greek, yes bilateral influence exists but doesn't change the core of the dyanamic
@@g-rexsaurus794 you misunderstand me. I agree that, in general and over time, Hellenization occured in those areas, otherwise I wouldn't be Greek ;). What the evidence goes against is that it was a simple cultural replacement, similar to how people interpret the colonization of the Americas. Take for example the relations between the Lydians and the Ionians. The Greeks were mostly the inferior group in this case. The use of coinage was adopted from them as well. Feel free to check out some literature on the Hellenization of Anatolia and Sicily. I am not interested nor qualified to teach a course on this, especially via youtube comments.
This supposed expert professor obviously has ideological biases. She shows this in every opportunity and in most cases her opinions are not even supported by the majority of expert scholars in the field! Stop calling her in your channel, cause I will personally unsubscribe if I see her once more in the future!
A growing pathetic trend of arguing what colour did what and where in history. Fools! Does who did what in the past help with the present and the future? NO! Keep racism out of the classroom. Only with unity can we survive!
Truth is not black or white. Greeks originally came from Egypt and they were "brown" in the beginning. Dorians, Ionians and Pelasgians were indigenous Europeans and "white" aryan so to say. Today's Greeks are mixture of all these races + Turks, even though they don't like to hear it. Herodotus wrote himself that Greeks were minority at the Balkan peninsula in the beginning.
Sigh, another modern framework arrogance... The Egyptian, Greek, Carthaginian, Phoenician cultures, etc. were more related to one another than Northern Europe or Sub Saharan Africa. It is just as ridiculous to call it "black" as "aryan". That said, there is a strong historical demarcation between the Ancient Egyptians and the black Nubians, so to call Egypt....let alone the Greeks "black" amounts to some absurd historical revisionism.
The ancient egyptians were mixed. Most were "black" Africans and some fewer in the north were mixed race and "brown"/levantine type. Egyptians were not berbers.
Where the ancient Greeks even 'white'?? Most Greeks I know today even all these centuries of intermixing still look West Asian. You can barely distinguish them from Turks and people from the Levant. Brown ppl basically
Shouting and saying people - who are to a great part dead - are racist is very weak in character. The literature mostly tries to give an original impression even when copying. So are the scholars to be blamed that the Danaides gave the idea that they are sprung up from nowhere? That is what most Texts give. Quite easy judging from here perspective to claim they did. ist on purpose. First thumbs down here.
Dr. Mary Lefkowitz is still living. Perhaps she might be persuaded to write and weigh in on this forum and put this in its proper perspective just like she did in the 1970’s.
She never did they walked all over her because her points were not valid you literally dont no your own history and they are educating you on it, i speak greek i can tell you they are accurate its just your ancient ancestors were not racist and your recent ancestors are i see you may have been heavily influenced by this as well as hollywood white washing everything but that doesnt make it true , the levant dna study over highlighted a much later dynasty far from when it was in antiquity , thats like you digging up white new york settlers and saying they were there first when we know they dont predate the Indians that came before them in the us
I have noticed you do NOT have African scholars who are current experts in Nubia and Egypt.
Please make an effort to invite each of these scholars on your show:
*Dr. Shomarka Omar Y Keita*
*Dr. Shadia Taha* Trinity College Cambridge University
*Salah Ahmed* (Nubian Archaeologist)
*Dr. Abdul Raman Ali* , Director of Sudan National Museum
*Robin Walker* African Scholar and Historian
*Stuart Tyson Smith* (Archaelogists and specialist between Nubia and Kemet)
And Ehret
*Dr. Zahi Hawass*
@@joeel-shazly8326 Zahi Hawas is a bigot
@@joeel-shazly8326 Zahi hawass is a racist
th-cam.com/video/qRYkrfbIn18/w-d-xo.html
It's amazing how Eurocentric scholars got defeated by Diop and Obenga in every debate, especially the one in UNESCO (look it up), and Bruce William wrote "Lost Pharaohs of Nubia" and won every debate whenever he was challenged, proving that the ancient Greeks were right about Egypt being founded by Nubians (aka Aethiopians), but we still here people denying what was basically general history until the 18th and 19th century scholars decided (not proved) Egypt was not Black-African
th-cam.com/video/qRYkrfbIn18/w-d-xo.html
Diop was a racist Black Marxist crank who was rejected by 98 percent of the World's Scientists at the UN.
A fake conference instigated by Diop.
Hotepism is a mythology of gangbanging.
I didn't understand why the terms "black" and "african" are used as the same thing here
That's because they aren't.
@Things on a dashboard - I meant to say that the professor wasn't conflating Black and African. She made a point to distinguish between the two.
@Things on a dashboard - Google the Jews of Bilad Al Sudan.
Don't forget the papua new gunieans and Australian aboriginals.
@Things on a dashboard - Yes that's right. I was just showing you why some African Americans believe they are Jewish.
The Greek historians and traveler Herodotus mention it that Greeks get there religious and geometry from ancient Egypt, Pythagoras spent 22 years in Egypt studying math and philosophy. The first Greek philosopher Thales study in Egypt where you learn math and philosophy. He also correctly predict the solar eclipse which he learn from Egypt
in the americas
@@Leejahstar So I do not understand your commits?
So, let me guess, the Egypts were black and the greek aristocracy were black too, right?! I know exactly your thinking, black boy! What you forget is the fact that the greeks or the several nations of Hellas created such an mythology to an very late time.
th-cam.com/video/qRYkrfbIn18/w-d-xo.html
Haha sure thing bro everything was copied from Egypt that's why egypt was being ruled by everyone else
The only thing right about black Athena is that there was cultural contact and exchange which is common sense. None of his critics deny that. They deny that Egypt colonized Greece and other ridiculous claims in the book. She spent the whole video saying "well hes not exactly wrong because there was cultural exchange" but didn't bring up hardly any of the outlandish claims.
Motte and bailey strategy of arguing.
@@g-rexsaurus794 glad you named that fallacy I didn't even know it existed but I've noticed this before and didn't know it was an actual fallacy. Thanks, I'll keep it saved in my debate repertoire to point out this fallacy when I see it from now on.
@@alexanderledvina8743 It's not really a fallacy, it's just deception or hypocrisy, if you look around you will see often in society.
@@g-rexsaurus794"The motte-and-bailey fallacy (named after the motte-and-bailey castle) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy where an arguer conflates two positions which share similarities, one modest and easy to defend (the "motte") and one much more controversial (the "bailey").[1] The arguer advances the controversial position, but when challenged, they insist that they are only advancing the more modest position.[2][3] Upon retreating to the motte, the arguer can claim that the bailey has not been refuted (because the critic refused to attack the motte)[1] or that the critic is unreasonable (by equating an attack on the bailey with an attack on the motte).[ The fallacy has been described as an instance of equivocation, more specifically concept-swapping, which is the substitution of one concept for another without the audience realizing."
It is a logical fallacy and the definition of intellectual dishonesty is purposely using fallacious logic. Using logical fallacies is by definition dishonest.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
She said that the book has a lot of bad ideas and the alternative model it presented was as problematic as the one it was challenging.
I've recently discovered Luwian Studies. The archaeologists who started it said that originally, in the 1800's, Europeans were looking for the origins of European history. They read the Iliad and paid attention to the Mycenaeans & Achaeans and their allies because they were "European" but completely ignored the Trojans and their allies because they were "Not European." But when the archaeologists started paying attention to who the Trojans and their allies were, as listed in the Iliad, they discovered rich cultures that had been ignored by archaeology for 200+ years. (It's a little like studying WWII and insisting we are ONLY going to study the war in Europe, because that was "European." But we are going to ignore the War in the Pacific because that was "Not European.")
Have you seen our videos with the President of Luwian Studies Dr. Zangger??? It’s fascinating!
Probably. I've been paying attention to that. I will look again.
@Ario YES, but Schliemann was interested in it only as it related to European history. Again the Iliad listed dozens of tribes & people that were allies of Troy they never investigated. Only the European Mycenaean & Achaeans and their allies were investigated because they were the predecessors to the Greeks and democracy.
@The Study of Antiquity and the Middle Ages : Yes, you video was one of the first I encountered. I went and viewed it again: Great work!
Luwians and the Bronze Age Collapse ~ Dr Zangger
th-cam.com/video/71w6kWWlr-0/w-d-xo.html
@Ario See video link to SAMA's Dr. Zanger video.
It would be astounding if Greek civilization were not heavily influenced by more ancient civilizations such as existed in Egypt, Asia Minor, Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley, and it would also be astounding if these civilizations didn't also influence each other.
I'm not so sure of Indus valley influence considering its distance from Greece.
@@listenup2882 those whom were originally from there were known to travel and conquer, so he’d be right
they did influence each other and established trade. everything changed with the fall of the bronze age...
We Introduced It All To Cavemen.
You have to remember that in Classical Greece and Rome, the early ancient civilizations were just that, "ANCIENT" and since at that time there were no Archaeological Studies, or real documented historical studies any suggestions of influences is speculative at best.
I dislike the attempt to frame Egypt as a “black” civilization when North Africa and the Middle East are easily both genetically distinct enough to both separate them from sub-Saharan Africa and to admit that their is a lot of genetic interplay. It’s just a rephrasing of the german attempt to use it for nationalism in a modern context, and I don’t know why people try to frame it as such when civilizations of great power and cultural prestige arose in Africa everywhere from Sudan; Axum; West Africa incl the Mali and the Empire of Ghana; the Central African state of Kongo and the Swahili states. I almost feel as if the legacy and standards people set for civilization inherently compare it with western models or alternatively Asian ones. The differences between civilizations and their expectations were so distinct, why would we try to frame other civilizations who are external to these “supposed” racializEd groupings, when anthropologically speaking race only became a relevant factor in the 1500s on?
Couldn't have said it better myself, bravo.
The genetic evidence clearly shows that Egypts ruling class outside the 25th Dynasty was not Black
, even the extent mummies clearly show this. Not that it matters, but to state otherwise for political motivations is anti-academic. Black Africa has great civilizations outside of Egypt.
This is a great point. "Race" is such a modern concept, historically speaking, and I think it can be tough to remember that in our super racially-focused world. Still, it's neat to consider the idea of Athena originating somewhere outside of the Greco-Roman.
Eli Hinze it is intriguing. Also how the original concept of the idea developed as each different culture adopted it.
Eli Hinze another interesting thing is the way that the ruling greek Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt tried to meld the greek and Egyptian gods together and integrate them into one religion.
Didn't many early inventions reach Egypt from Mesopotamia? Like the chariot for example.
Chariots went from eastern European steppe -> middle East -> egypt
No pretty much just domesticated horses and chariots
@Ario from southern Mesopotamia ,yes....the ores were mined in the mountains of Anatolia but metallurgy was done in places like bad-tibira
@Ario I was going a little further back
@Ario before the Anatolians in the levant.... smelting started in Sumer
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She spent lots of time saying what wasn't the case - not so much what was the case.
EVERY TIME! Its sucking the joy out of this learning experience to hear her thoughts on what isn't vs what we know. To much nope and supposition, not enough history/archeology.
Welcome to actual research.
Apparently she doesn't know WHY a particular is not the case.
we need a video on why west Asia is never referred to as west Asia, I once told my Lebanese friend that she was west Asian, and she got offended.
Your not wrong but historically peoples in that region are not labeled as such. I guess it's like Canadians, I have never heard of them referred to as North Americans, although it is true Canada is on the Northern part of the America's.
@@mutalixCanada is in north America, its a continent. There's no such place as West Asia
It is said that during the time that the Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt the present day Middle East was called FAR EAST AFRICA.
can you have some equivalence between your sound levels... Ive brought this up before
I'm honestly here just to read the triggered nazis in the comments.
Blacks 'we wuz kangzs' supremacists
let's face it he always seemed like he'd go down this route
People who follow the truth usually do.
History is one of the greatest of the ancient sciences that is so wonderful ♥️
Does any modern scholar pretends that ancient greece didnt have any influence from egypt? It seems to me that Dr Kennedy tends to project modern political topics on her research topics. If you look at the books she published, they are all related to gender, ethnicity and race. Claiming everyone is racist and non stop talking about race doesnt aound like a constructive discussion.
Your just paralysed to rationalise and accept what she's saying... she a pioneer and has my respect as a human being regardless of colour
Greeks dressed as egyptians appropriated the whole culture... but you think greeks influenced them your exactly the type of person she's highlighting
So when is the video going to explain Black Athena? no? .... okay...
It’s just a book title. The real point is that Greece was influenced by Greece & the Near East
The title was picked by Bernal’s publisher to be edgy. The project was about arguing that Egypt & the Near East influenced Greece
funny thing is the influences its not really ever denied even in early studies but because the actual influence is less direct and handed down several times over, its just easily projected to be a conspiracy and gets sensationalized and even over emphasized to satiate current year emotional biases.
@@galidorn1 Actually with recent studies in maritime archaeology, cultural entanglement & premonetary economy that picture is changing.
They actually do, so maybe you should actually listen to what is being said in the video. It's not that Athena was black, but that Egypt and thus Africa was seen as the big influence on classic society, by those societies themselves and all evidence points to that as well. It is a bit odd to me that those are still issues in the discourse in the US where elsewhere in the world this discussion was settled in the 1970's. But I guess that's how History channel started to propagate aliens as builders of pyramids. Anything to prevent native Africans or other non white people get credit for their achievements.
Dr Kennedy is fantastic. Can you bring her on for more videos please.
Phd from lidl
@@alibombasta7004 Ad hominem attacks such as yours reveal the weakness of your reasoning abilities rather than the subject of your insult.
@@kwadwo9681 her whole premise is a ad hominem against greeks. And yours to by supporting her. Dont even try to go there and test my intellegence i will crush you like the rest of this subversive postmodern woke degenerate revisionists. "Kwadwo"
The first 15 seconds of that intro was used for an Avengers Infinity War trailer. 💛
Lmfao
Rule of thumb:
Never have an SJW talk about ethnicity because half of what she was talking about were fluff buzzwords which were anti-academic.
Can you be specific instead of name calling
What is the authors name of the book mentioned around the 11:00 min mark
Jeac Bare Lene Bauer- Heresy in the University
Never mind
Jacques Berlinerblau
I believe it was Hippocrates who said he was nothing without Imhotep.
If scientists and presenters focus on the archaeological, linguistic and genetic evidence, it will give people something to base their opinions on.
You need more views bro keep up the good work.
Wasn't there continuous habitation on the Aegean that preceded Phoenician colonizing across the Med? Doesn't that completely refute this horseshit thesis?
Yes & no
Sarapis(greek god)= Asar+Apus (both are Kemetic/Egyptian dieties)
It is absurd to conclude that Greece was not heavily influenced by Kemet and for many reasons other than the above.
TRUTH
th-cam.com/video/qRYkrfbIn18/w-d-xo.html
Not even going to try to watch this one till I make myself a sandwich or else I'll be watching this video 4 times just like last time.
I'm more confused
Black Africans done everything first then whites came in and took over and shut everything down and restarted everything in the image of a white man
Omg I love her for speaking objectively and the the truth as she know it
Truth as she “knows it”? Why not the truth as it is or the truth as we know it based on evidence and logic?
Why should Egypt be separated from the rest of Africa. The origins of pre-dynastic egypt are deeply rooted in Africa with the worship of distinctly African deities based on animals found in Africa. Not to mention the oldest mummy in the world is a "black" boy from 5,000 BC the Juan Mahujaj mummy had the same evisceration mummification that became common place in Egypt. Egypt was multicultural from the 1st Dynasty till the end.
Absolutely, and why, do we think that if they were dark like Don Cheedle or tan like Zahi Hawass, or pale like John Turturro that we can lay claim to their greatness? We have our own cultures true it is influenced by Egypt but it is seperate and great by as well.
Africa is pointless concept, what makes it useful enough to be used here? As a continent it's directly connected to West Asia and Egypt experienced more contact with West Asia than it did with 80% of Africa.
@@g-rexsaurus794 that is completely false. There is extensive research about inner africa's dealings with Egypt. Their founding myth is about the south. They have many heiroglyphs dedicated to the Lybians, Cushites, Pygmies of the south, there are linguistic and cultural links to west africa and the songhai, there are cloth animal skins, gold, ivory, iron and jewels that come from inner africa.
@@g-rexsaurus794 The Nile flows from Kenya and Ethipia how do you expect them not to have extensive contact with civilizations that could cut off the source of their way of life.
@@bensondavido4525 Lybians and Cushites were in the 20% of Africa that Egypt had contact with, also I'm not sure where you came up with the idea that Egypt had contact with "pygmies"(where even?)
Also Songhay is not contemporary with ancient Egypt but sure.
Great content as usual, thought provoking. Thanks for the great channel!
Free_Gold thank you for the support and for your shout out. This means the world.
There is little doubt that ancient Greece was influenced by Egypt and Middle Eastern civilizations,, the Egyptians employed Greeks as mercenary troops and the Greeks returned to Greece with great knowledge of mathematics, building techniques, and other trades and traditions... Also seafaring Greeks did robust trade with the Levant. However Bernal implies that Egypt was an Black culture and society which is patently false and there is little evidence anthropologically, archaeologically, or otherwise to support this, or to support the idea that Greece was a satellite society of Phoenicia or Egypt. Greece was already on the doorstep of the great IndoEuropean culture of the Hittites, and there is emerging evidence that Celtic culture was far more advanced and cultured that we have originally thought, and Greece was undoubtedly influenced by Gauls, Scythians, and Thracians, to a great extent as the breath of Macedonian civilization shows. The idea that Egypt was anything other than a culture ruled by Dynastic families other than IE/Euro-phenotypes (mixture of EEF/WHG/IE) outside the 25th dynasty is patently ridiculous, every dynastic mummy shows this is true, and the emerging genetic evidence is clear, there was a gradual browning of Egyptian over the course of its history and not the reverse. Ancient Egyptians were genetically closer to modern Europeans than modern Egyptians are. Many dynastic mummies have red hair which is a strictly Nordic/Celtic phenotype. Instead of trying to prove that Egypt was a Black culture, we should acknowledge that Northern Africa was markedly more European in the Bronze age than has been previously imagined... That would make things more logical historically and it will eventually prevail academically. Lefkowitz explains this with ease in "Not Out Of Africa".
Also exploring history through this modern Marxist anti-White lens is ludicrous and counterproductive.
The dna evidence supporting the Blackness of the Ancient Egyptians:
The list of Pharaohs & Family, dna testing Black, is endless:
Ramesses III E1b1a
Pentawer E1b1a
Thuya Egypt 3,390 D13S317, D7S820, D2S1338, D21S11,
D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA
Yuya Egypt 3,390 D13S317, D7S820, D2S1338, D21S11,
D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA
Tiye (Elder Lady KV35) Egypt 3,370 D13S317, D7S820, D2S1338, D21S11,
D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA
Amenhotep III Egypt 3,370 D13S317, D7S820, D2S1338, D21S11,
D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA
KV55 mummy Egypt 3,350 D13S317, D7S820, D2S1338, D21S11,
D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA
KV35 Younger Lady Egypt 3,390 D13S317, D7S820, D2S1338, D21S11,
D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA
Tutankhamun Egypt 3,340 D13S317, D7S820, D2S1338, D21S11,
D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA
KV21 Mummy A Egypt 3,340 D13S317, D2S1338, D21S11,
D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA
KV21 Mummy B Egypt 3,340 D13S317, D2S1338,
D16S539, CSF1PO
KV62 Fetus 1 Egypt 3,340 D13S317, D7S820, D2S1338, D21S11,
D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA
KV62 Fetus 2 Egypt 3,340 D13S317, D7S820, D2S1338, D21S11,
D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA
maravi.blogspot.com/2012/01/sticky-dnatribes-king-tuts-dna-matches.html
Where is your, peer reviewed, dna evidence in support of white indigenous pharaohs....
@Spoony G I don't get your question...DNA is a closed case argument; NO INDIGENOUS PHARAOH remains where ever found to match any typically European dna structures.....The isn't a single bona fide statue of a white person predating 2500 BC; as for Blacks:
The listing of Africoid statues (Pharaohs & Family), predating 2500 BC, is
endless -
Narmer First Pharaoh of Egypt, 3100 BC:
i.pinimg.com/originals/5e/33/cd/5e33cde4b79333a7f0e65c3c943eeced.jpg
Pharaoh Djoser 2630 BC:
i.pinimg.com/originals/50/ec/27/50ec2765110748fc84dcedb26434b183.jpg
Pharaoh Khafre 2558 BC:
www.flickr.com/photos/24729615@N00/26598985805
Notice how white supremisists will try an give you a side photo of this image to hide the nostrils
Pharaoh Menakure 2575 BC:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menkaure#/media/File:Menkaura_Bust_Closeup.jpg
Pharaoh Huni 2613 BC:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huni#/media/File:Huni-StatueHead_BrooklynMuseum.png
Pharaoh Sahure 2500 BC:
i.pinimg.com/originals/01/ee/d5/01eed5119dc5272d6c464b2d72f0b6de.jpg
Pharaoh Djedefre 2575 BC:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djedefre#/media/File:Djedefre_sphinx_head-E_12626-IMG_4294-gradient.jpg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djedefre#/media/File:Djedefra_wearing_the_crown_of_Lower_Egypt-E_11167-IMG_9702-gradient.jpg
Sphinx of Giza:
tr.pinterest.com/pin/154952043410537491/
th-cam.com/video/ANTWp4X-xj0/w-d-xo.html
Pharaoh Amenemhat III 1860 BC:
www.pinterest.com/pin/405886985146278405/
Pharaoh Amenhotep III 1386 BC:
www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/544477
Queen Tiye 1386 BC:
johnoehler.com/novels/papyrus/
Imhotep's mother (Khereduankh):
i.pinimg.com/originals/dd/17/c2/dd17c29f2f62db33e93f701d427b52ef.jpg
i.pinimg.com/originals/07/59/26/075926656e2b9f4dc28aad26eb54639f.png
Imhotep's Boss (Pharaoh Djoser 2630 BC):
i.pinimg.com/originals/50/ec/27/50ec2765110748fc84dcedb26434b183.jpg
Imhotep:
www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/depiction-of-the-god-imhotep-bronze-26th-dynasty-imhotep-news-photo/871634468?adppopup=true
www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/depiction-of-the-god-imhotep-bronze-26th-dynasty-imhotep-news-photo/590679819?adppopup=true
The historical lens of the status quo; is racist, fascist, and worst of all; it's a self aggrandizing toxic lie
@@inigomulaisho2809 Go and look at an actual picture of Thuya and Yuya, they are blonde and red haired respectively. More Europeans are related to Tutankhamen than are not, its in the region of 70%. Less than 5% of modern Egyptians are related to the line of Tutankhamen. You guys really reach though... have a look for yourself, and tell me what African Black has wavy Caucasoid hair like this? th-cam.com/video/3gmJB1DHhAw/w-d-xo.html&feature=emb_title
You can argue about facial structures all you want but you cant argue with the genetics coming out
www.nature.com/news/mummy-dna-unravels-ancient-egyptians-ancestry-1.22069#:~:text=Both%20types%20of%20genomic%20material,with%20modern%20sub%2DSaharan%20Africans.&text=The%20mixing%20of%20ancient%20Egyptians,mummies%20from%20Abusir%20el%2DMeleq.
The increase of African Black genes happened after Roman rule
www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694
read it and weep
www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/scientists-thought-ancient-egyptian-mummies-didn-t-have-any-dna-left-they-were-wrong
These are the first results typing in DNA of Egyptian Mummies on Google.
keep it up..great content and very even handed analysis
No Just NO. It is different to say that there were African AND Anatolian influences in Greek civilazation (of course there were). And is completely differen to support than Greek civilazation is an African civilazation, which is black Athina thesis. Greek Civilization was an "indoeuropean" Mediterranean civilization as the Etruscans were, Frygian, and other similar nations. Come on that is not science, is not history or archaeology any more, this is politics.
Agreed. She uses terms in an overly generalised way which is problematic. Also, there's a core assumption that Egypt was pure, true, and eternal and doesn't have Mediterranean influences. The theory of civilisation, at least since Victorian times, have always viewed civilisation as coming from the Mid East and Egypt. There's a problem with her introduction to Indo-European language and culture. Ayran doesn't mean German, it means Indian. It think she's only read political material and is not familiar with the arguments.
@@sarad6627 FYI Aryans weren't Indians, or rather Dravidian, they were Indo-European chariot riders that came sweeping down from somewhere on the Pontic Steppe, but because they spread blue eyes into the Indian subcontinent we also know they had genes from European hunter-gatherers, as well as Indo-European. So I suspect this came about not because they were in central Europe themselves, but they were in contact with the Indo-European cultures that were, maybe through a trade network, and the genes spread that way.
Anyway, Sanksrit is Indo-European and the Vedic gods and stuff that derived from them is also from the same source as European religions, that's why the gods all ride chariots. One of Indra's titles was "plunderer of walled cities" and also they may have brought veneration of cows as they were a herding people.
Even today the priestly Brahman class in the North, who consider themselves Aryan, have about 20% Indo-European DNA, because they swept in from the north.
Pretty sure Indus Valley Civ. had already expired by then.
@@Sinsteel You need to remove the Indian Nationalism from your definitions. "Indian=Dravidian" No, populations are much more complex than that. "IE=blue-eye Europeans that invaded India" Again, populations are more complex than that. "chariot riders sweeping down" Again, too simplistic to describe the populations in the Indus Valley.
Ayran is another word for Iran
When do we tackle sinocentrism?
Keep up the great work and cool content you’re putting out on this channel. The valid and compelling arguments about classics and race are ALL worth listening to...the others that focus on negativity and not education- F em.
th-cam.com/video/qRYkrfbIn18/w-d-xo.html
The title is clickbait , however what Dr Futo discuss is very interesting , but makes a nerdy video title.What i like the most is the books recommendation and the controversy discussion.
WE
WUZ
SPARTA! *kicks bucket of black paint on a marble statue*
Ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Phoenicians …etc are Arabic nations. They are Canaanite Arabs, who migrated from the Arabian peninsula, and founded all of these civilizations. Even their languages are greatly similar to Modern Standard Arabic. Even though the calligraphy is different. And they influenced the Greek civilization. And many even lived there. Regarding the color, Arabs are warm white and this is how they described themselves in classic Arabic literature. And Arabs, before Islam was revealed and before it taught them to abandon racism, were racist against black Africans and they called them black. Distinguishing themselves from them. However, because Arabs are warm white and not snow white, they tan easily from the sun therefore some non Arabic nations viewed them as brown. Of course nowadays probably most Arabs are very white because of mixing. And some Arabs are dark brown also by mixing.
Also, this is not the first time Arabs influence the west. You can read About “Alandalus” and how the modern western civilization emerged from this Arabic and Muslim golden age and civilization.
Response to “M B” will be written here so no one erases it again:
There is a linguistic link between the mentioned civilizations. Also there are many Arab professors who transcribed ancient Egyptian to Modern Standard Arabic. For example, Dr. Mohamed Bahjat Alqubaisi. He has publications and TH-cam translated videos discussing this issue. You can check his books in the link below. If you don’t read Arabic just copy his name and paste it on TH-cam and watch his translated videos. They are translated to English.
د. محمد بهجت القبيسي.
www.noor-book.com/%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A8-%D8%AF-%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF-%D8%A8%D9%87%D8%AC%D8%AA-%D9%82%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%B3%D9%8A-pdf
Also, the Hebrew language is linked to ancient Arabic. Because the prophet Ibrahim is the grandfather of Jews and Ishmaelite Arabs.
Further, the Arabs are the founders of the ancient Greek civilization and the colors mentioned are very much Arabic.
Do you know about the following Arabic civilizations?
Iram
The Abbasid Empire
The Umayyad empire
Some of these were the greatest in the world in their time, and some of the European counties used to pay the Arab emperor to protect them.
There is no language connection to any of these civilization to arabic or else they would be able to decipher the hieroglyphs in egypt without outside help. The cananite/phoenician is closer to hebrew than arabic. Also Herodotus and the greek historians already told you what they looked like.
Lol there is nothing Arabic about ancient Egypt or phonedis. Arabs didn’t even exist then lol.
Respond to the evidence.
@@Na-du9fs there is zero evidence Egyptians we’re Arabs lol especially the pictures with Afros on the walls and none of their dna is do Arabs lol. The evidence don’t stand on nothing you said lol. I read glyphs lol do you? How about you show in the text where they say they come from. You can’t! Lol
@@Na-du9fs the evidence shows the oldest mummy in Africa is a black boy lol the Taswhimat mummy. A Arab mummy never been found in Egypt lol
I Sincerely, wonder why 99.9999% of statues, cited as evidence, of a white Ancient Egypt, are one-offs
I truly wonder why over 97% of these white statues are of non entities eg scribes but never Pharaohs :)
I emphatically wonder why 99% of these white statues are always "discovered" in hidden places under murky circumstances
I simply wonder why 100% of these statues; are of a forgeable size, nothing the size of the Sphinx of Giza
I am truly amazed at the fresh out of the box appearance, of these white AE statues; earthquakes were kind to them.....
I wonder why, like magic, they were only discoverable in the 1800s
When are we going to discover, the Ancient Egyptian hieroglyph for face with a undeniable representation of a European face :(
Yeh you are so important the whole world is against you lol.
@@joelhungerford8388 and they aren't? Transatlantic slave trade, colonialism, neocolonialism and the stigmatisation of the dark skin was the whole world in love with us?
Thanks for the video.! It is an interesting topic I was not aware of. I still think Black Athena is a lot of wishful thinking, as one thing is to acknowledge the great influence the culture of Egypt and the Middle East had in Ancient Greece, that I assume most people do, to say that Greece is essentially a black culture, which is jumping to unsupported conclusions, and good intentions (fighting racism is always laudable) is not an excuse for sloppy thinking. I bet the same people would be mad if I say that modern Africa or Asia are European-American due to the enormous influence the European civilization had in them. Nevertheless, nice videos and keep going. You have my thumbs up.
Well the latter wouldn't make sense since western civilisation did not invent or create any of these disciplines. Developing is a different thing entirely. I wouldn't say looting and plundering nations is akin to influencing.
@@BF-bb5us Persia plunder ancient greece, and that did not make the persian influence non existent. Current global culture is a western development. Modern industry is a western development. Science and engineering is a western development, which not make it less true as the best understanding of reality we have. That do not make the horrors of colonization less horrible. All human cultures have good and bad points. Let's take good and remember the bad.
@@tychoides it wasn't an enormous impact whatsoever. These so called developments are not western! These ideas have been fostered because of the global community no way a western development. Ideas have been extracted from elsewhere. That's just indoctrination.
@@BF-bb5us Yeah right... Asia is booming because it westernized. It bring the good things of Western civ and mix them with their our culture to make something new. Guess what, this is what people has done since we have history. The middle east is isolated and its trying to upgrade the islamic traditions to a open world, without a lot of success. Africa is getting their shit together after being colonies, and they are irrelevant for the wide world (a least in southamerica were I live Africa is a place nothing more). India is isolated and they chill doing their thing, as they have done for thousand of year but nothing comming from India except food and ridiculous Bollywood movies. Latinamerica produce some soft cultural like food and music, with some contribution to literature, and nothing more. We are trapped in low invesment rentist economies whose elites are happy to manage what there is and people is happy to consume american pop culture happilly. People ate more american fast food that traditional food. We are already assimilated to western culture. So much for a global community.
@@tychoides the western world would be nothing without these other nations absolutely nothing, Asia contributes a lot to the west not the other way round. Some African nations have the highest gdp and are doing very well economically. Goes to show that people are led by things they're told and not actual facts. I have no idea who is going around eating American food which is horrendous. You have some interesting ideas on the world which is not true or accurate.
What I don’t really understand is why race even matters. Yeah the Greeks were influenced by the Egyptians, ethnicity really only tells you when certain ethnic groups conquered other ethnic groups, historically speaking, most people didn’t move outside their ethnic areas, and still don’t. So if Greece was influenced by Egypt and/or vice versa, isn’t the cultural exchange and influence on technology more important than what color of skin people are? I simply don’t agree with apologists or radicalism on either side. History is about what people did and who they were as a people, less about what color their appendages were. I understand the importance of studying ethnicity in a historical context, but outside of saying yeah some Greeks are buried here in Afghanistan or vice versa and understanding the actual historical impact of that, what does race matter so much? I think if you go back to Paleolithic and pre antiquity periods to study migrations, that’s a different story because you are tracing a people’s identity in their living areas. I don’t know I kinda rambled a long time to essentially say who cares about race.
White people who else
@@JamesWilliams-ki5pq it’s people of all races on both sides who are being slowly “radicalized” by easily accessible worthless media
Amei o vídeo! A professora me falou sobre esse tema na aula de filosofia
th-cam.com/video/qRYkrfbIn18/w-d-xo.html
The guy claimed Greece was an Egyptian colony and that Greeks basically didn't come up with anything on their own. His only evidence is proof they had contact. This Aryan centricity non sense is crockery that was only popular among actual Nazis. Why would you have it presented by someone who's expertise is environmental studies and gender studies? 😖 knowing classical literature is only one part of history. Can you please get a real history, linguistics or archaeology professor on? I came here for history, not sociology and hearing about academic racism that doesn't exist. I know she's trying but have her there for a video on Karl Marx, critical theory or something else she actually has expertise in. I wouldn't want a gender studies professor teaching my kids about history. Ask her what critical pedagogy is. In other words with her beliefs she has a moral duty to politicize teaching and give a bias slant 😖
"Rebecca Futo Kennedy is Associate Professor of Classics, Women's and Gender Studies, and Environmental Studies at Denison University"
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Futo_Kennedy
denison.edu/people/rebecca-futo-kennedy
She’s smarter and better qualified than your version of her, and your version of her is smarter and better qualified than you. You’re like a kid failing high school math trying to criticize your teacher for not being a college professor without realizing they both have the same degrees. Whomp whomp.
@@MasterShake9000 using Bette and Motte fallacy to downplay the ridiculousness of the Black Athena and making it sound like all he was saying is Greece had cultural Tues to Egypt when the book literally says Greeks are Egyptian colonists 🙄
Funny you should bring up mathematics, I'm actually an engineer. But yeah I did get As in my history classes like ever other class. I can identify intellectual dishonesty when I see it.
Alexander Ledvina if you were anywhere near as smart as you claim to be, you’re video watching comprehension skills would have shown that this professor you’re trying to smear as some idiot liberal feminist explicitly stated that the book that’s triggering you was bad history. Unfortunately given she used academic terms in an academic discourse, this was apparently too subtle for someone like you who’s clearly been conditioned by Fox News and 4chan to only register criticism when it involves, you know, somehow managing to only focus on the woman herself and misunderstanding the difference between a job title and her actual qualifications and education.
I know men like you need to see women as beneath you because a real woman never is, but please try to keep up with the rest of us who have moved on from your TH-cam 2010 debating tactics (which were failures back then as well).
Also the only BS you’re seeing is from a mirror, not a computer screen.
I just got a huge Saint Seiya Vibe. I could hear Pegasus Dream as the music score for the intro! XD
The widespread use of ‘sub-Sahara Africa’ makes no sense and is undoubtedly a
geopolitical
It appears increasingly fashionable in the West for a number of broadcasters, websites, news agencies, newspapers and magazines, the United Nations/allied agencies and some governments, writers and academics to use the term ‘sub-Sahara Africa’ to refer to all of Africa except the five historically modern Arab states of north Africa (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt) and the Sudan formally Nubia, a north-central African country. Even though its territory is mostly located south of the Now Sahara Desert, the Sudan is excluded from the ‘sub-Sahara Africa’ tagging by those who promote the use of the epithet because the regime in power in Khartoum describes the country as ‘Arab’ despite its majority African population.
But the concept ‘sub-Sahara Africa’ is absurd and misleading, if not a meaningless classificatory schema. Its use defies the science of the fundamentals of geography but prioritises hackneyed and stereotypical racist labelling. It is not obvious, on the face of it, which of the four possible meanings of the prefix ‘sub’ its users attach to the ‘sub-Sahara Africa’ labelling. Is it ‘under’ the Sahara Desert or ‘part of’/‘partly’ the Sahara Desert? Or, presumably, ‘partially’/‘nearly’ the Sahara Desert or even the very unlikely (hopefully!) application of ‘in the style of, but inferior to’ the Sahara Desert, especially considering that there is an Arab people sandwiched between Morocco and Mauritania (northwest Africa) called Saharan?
Sahara is a barrier, like Himalaya is a barrier.
Guess why the result of these separations is obvious?😂
It's no coincidence that Greek gods were copycats of Egyptian gods. The founders of the first cities like Athens were likely African. No different from the British founding/developing Hong Kong before handing it back to the indigenous Chinese. I don't get the controversy and butthurt comments from many ppl on the thread.
Egypt is North Africa. Not black subsahara.
Academic reviews of Bernal's work generally reject his heavy reliance on ancient Greek mythology, speculative assertions, and handling of archaeological, linguistic, and historical data.
Bernal's attack on the 'Aryan model' is universally accepted in academia as the strongest aspects of his book. She says his linguistics were wrong. His speculative assertions were logical but relied on inaccurate linguistics.
@@julianfrost4827 I think no part of his book were universally accepted in academia.
I'm sure Dr. Kennedy has great knowledge and I agree with some of the stuff she said (both positive and negative), but i will not "give you a break" about Her language.
Same way i would oppose any right wing ideologist trying to poison the well i will oppose her language. Maybe in the USA such a language is acceptable, but the USA is not the whole world. It is closer to the communist "Newspeak" (which I had the opportunity to experience personally) than to the language of science. The generalizations she uses are preposterously anti-scientific.
I'd love(!) to learn more about the African (and Black) influences on the culture of Greece, Rome and all of Europe. I do not know anyone who would challenge the influence of other cultures on Europe and Greece.
This does not mean that I will accept newspeak and generalizations that have nothing to do with science or history and are intended to divide, not bind us together.
What language are you referring to?
The only way to combat bias is to call it out. Bias creates division.
I think the problem is in how the content from these other scholarship is received. No Scholar of antiquity has created a perfect understanding their subject. I recommend viewing these sorts of things as a different perspective, not an attempt to rewrite or force history. Read them and reflect on them, you may not agree with it, but it may open your perspective up. You read secondary sources just as you read primary ones, with a critical eye. No one is expecting you to drink this stuff down indiscriminately, merely giving other perspectives to mediate upon.
I mean, we still read Herodotus don't we?
Absolutely, this is why all types of diversity are so important, to get different perspectives
She offers opinion after opinion without evidence, as if her meager scholarship is enough to justify the nonsense spouted by those she agrees with. Her rationale is full of question begging.
These ideas are ridiculous. She says all of this without any backing, commenting on junk archaeology.
@@vickru2133 She said that the book has a lot of bad ideas and the alternative model it presented was as problematic as the one it was challenging. what is bad in that? you people are crazy, you need help!!!
Takes a lot more study than a short video
What ideas is she promoting here? Specifically.
of course yakubian devils would say this
She’s amazing!
Finally someone who acknowledges the fundamental misrepresentations of Bernal by Mary Lefkowitz et al. and their motives while also being level headed about what Bernal got wrong! Such a sigh of relief, honestly.
DOWN FROM OLYMPUS is an extremely important work. (it's so expensive though! please someone publish it in paperback)
athena become mixed race , neanderthal and black african , mauro = moro = mixed , The African culture in Greece was more rational for european to understend , thot , hermes , mercurio , platon , mentalism ext
Wokeness is destroying history
Lol. No racism did
That’s not an argument
It was built on a lot of lies so maybe it needs to come down.
Western White Lies have already destroyed and distorted history we are trying to rectify the wrongs of the white Scholars and people who have been lying about our story
What do you mean, “history” or your history or white version of history! You should say wokeness is destroying the white men HIS-STORY!
in the theocratic societies of the east including Egypt the priest class owned everything, all the land belonged to them , anything of value was monopolized by the priest class , the general population was starving , CORPUS HERMETICUM was a farse propaganda of Ptolemy the first Soter to advance his personal Serapis religion for geopolitical purposes . For example a worker in Mesopotamia at around 600Bc got as salary one siklu PER MONTH ( from Greek σικλος σιγλος meaning bucket - specific volume trade container = todays shekel ) he copuld buy a couple of kilos wheat a couple of kilos shekel and a few litters of bad wine ) The ''black athena '' false theories written by Ptolemy were speeded by mistake by the Medici family and Ficino who mistook Hermetica for real while it was written by ptolemy. Today everybody knows its fake but the occultists* and the official masonry . LMgreekAO
Hasn't recent DNA research argued that ancient Egyptians were of Anatolian rather than negroid origin ?
Not Anatolian, but rather Natufian-like with further Levantine and East African influence, far closer to contemporary Levantines than to Horn Africans or West Africans.
No, it's impossible to have accurate genome of the original people. The DNA of Obama and Michelle cannot be the accurate description of America 3000 years in the future. The 2017 DNA you are referring to was based on 3 non royal mummies from lower Egypt and dated to Greco-Roman period.
@@sekoukelleh1003
3 complète + 90 Mtdna égyptians mummies.
And not blacks.
Bernal's proposals in his book were not new only to archeologists but numerous Black scholars across a wide range of disciplines academia and otherwise (not just "Afrocentric radio") all over the world. The arguments were taken seriously (and it was a big threat) because he was white.
This is hard to take even remotely seriously. The good doctor becomes oddly agitated when insisting people remember that Egypt is, in fact, on the African continent. Does anyone really contest this? More seriously, she paints with very misleading brushes, and over broad they are. She repeats the absurd claim by Bernall that the "Greeks took their civilization from Egypt" and instead of explaining how ludicrous that is, she emphasizes that Egypt was influenced by the ancient Greeks -- which is not in doubt. She then puts the blame squarely where it belongs -- on some mysterious Aryan-Germanic whitewashing where the profoundly important Greek achievements sprang from nothing. It's hard to locate these people and sources are not provided as to exactly is pushing these ideas. Now, it is true: there was indeed a "Greek Miracle" that did bloom in the eastern Mediterranean and it was influenced by the neighboring cultures, but their accomplishments are so profound and departed from what came before in such remarkable ways, the term "miracle" is quite well deserved. A good example is the Greek alphabet. They basically took it from the Phoenicians script, but modified it by replacing certain unneeded consonants symbols for use as vowel sounds -- this gave rise to the first true alphabet. Thank you Greeks (from which the symbols used in this sentence are derived).
One need only review things like the philosophy and science and math and engineering and art and architecture, and compare it with what came before to understand this. She tries to downgrade Greek accomplishments, and uses phrases like "so-called Western Civilization", support for which, in her very strange world view, is based on white supremacy. Recognizing the obvious Greek foundation of The West is called having a basic education. It doesn't matter if one is Jewish or German or American to do so. Not seeing it this way, she throws out charming observations like "just because you are Jewish doesn't mean you are not anti-black". Mangling history and accepting atrocious pseudo-scholarship should not be a prerequisite for being considered "not anti-black".
Bernall is just one among many activist historians trying to make up for the paucity of accomplishments by sub-Saharan African civilizations. They attempt to use Egypt and its relationship with ancient Greece as a way to claim a greatness of their own. The problem is that Egyptians were not "black" Africans and their influence on Greece was real, but wildly overstated here. Voices like Cheikh Anta Diop with his books about a "black" Egypt and African civilizations were taken seriously by historians who were deathly afraid of being called "racist" if they were to be honest about the quality of the work he produced.
When she says of Bernall: "On the archaeology stuff, he was not completely right", it is almost is comical. That's as far as can go when it is obvious the guy is on another planet. The whole video is a depressing example of how critical race theory and other forms of political bigotry and anti-scientiific prejudice are becoming influential in academia now. Hearing the incessant reduction of everything to some sort of battle against "white supremacy" gets old and is puerile on a good day. While the doctor seems to be having a good time with the material, it mostly shows what happens when a social justice warrior get a Phd. and a webcam.
You sound you like you need a snickers. Stop crying because colonization is over and truth is finally being revealed to the masses.
Well said
Wow this is so politically charged. It seams like your trying to impose your current political and social views on history. There may be merit to what your saying but it’s so difficult to parse this with your personal views. Btw I love the channel mate
How In the fuck is he “ trying to impose political views” if you could explain that coherently. It would be appreciated
@@Worf814 she... not he
@@rosssummers6258 Exactly how and at what point is she "trying to impose political views" please explain it coherently. Thank you
You're scared of facts.
Great splash of humor right at the end!
Are we keeping her away from that sandwich?
Is black Athena then more valid as a critic of the histography examining the study of the discipline than its value of examining history itself then?
A very interesting interview and quite balanced as an intro. Sure she could be a bit less colloquial in her style (the issue is less Americanisms than a folksy style). That way she’d be less likely to be misunderstood by unfamiliar viewers. All told everything she said stands up within a good talk for lay people.
As for some of the strident comments, I can only imagine TH-cam had a glitch and showed some folks the wrong video. I’ve been waiting for this topic for decades. Cool.
I do hope she gets into some specifics in the next installment.
Great video!! I like how she calls out Mary Lefkowitz on her Greek Miracle theory, while at the same time while calling out the shortcomings of Black Athena. I hope you interview her more on these topics. Unfortunately race is a big topic in the field archaeology and to pretend like it doesn’t exist and avoid confronting it, would be a great intellectual dishonesty.
I loved it as well! Definitely a fair and balanced discussion! Also, thank you for watching and commenting!
I would agree, but I think that from an anthropological standpoint it is important to acknowledge the race only became a significant idea in the 1500s and in looking at history before that, that it is our duty to recognize it as being a study relating to modern race relations rather than as affecting history.
The teacher was not sure when the book came out..She thinks in 1989 that she went to school at 1: 30 of video...
However, the book was not published in 1989 as he thinks, but two years before:
Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization (The Fabrication of Ancient Greece 1785-1985, Volume 1) Paperback - January 1, 1987
The teacher made a dialectical mistake in the first seconds of her speech....
cultural appropriation at its finest, but what can they do, when they don't have a culture themselves
Research the Great Goddess Neith and you will know.
th-cam.com/video/qRYkrfbIn18/w-d-xo.html
Interesting theory, i will say but i will admit i am not convinced. it is interesting though.
What theory? She didn't say anything about the topic. Just what a couple other people talked about to each other, second hand.
@@TheCsel Yes but it sounds interesting from what bits we did get, and it is a theory as it not been confirmed.
There is always a red flag when someone writes outside of their field! Bernal did not want to call his book Black Athena as he argues for a Semitic culture. Somehow people of color in the middle east and North Africa became black. African does not mean black as African are not all black Africans.
The ancient world was different than it is today. At one time only black people existed in the world.
@@righteousness8606
Yes 70000 years ago. The age in question was long after all the racial groups on earth existed.
Thank you for the discussion it’s always been discussed about the Near Eastern influences in Athena, it’s interesting hearing about Egyptian/African (because the Egyptian religion has deep roots and ties in Nubian religion) influences. People should be more open minded as all these cultures were intertwined and the Greeks are notorious for borrowing and loaning theological ideas. Thanks man!
here we go again ((
What I took from her commentary is that academia is at war with itself...
Yay progress... 🥴
“Nigga you ain’t got to explain SHIT I been robbing MUTHAPHUCKAS since the slave ships” ~ Notorious B.I.G. 😤
Egypt is surely in Africa in a geographic sense, no one disputes that. And Egypt certainly had dealings with other Africans, interior/Sub-saharan and along the Mediterranean coast. But it largely grouped as part of the "fertile Crescent" and the "cradles of civilization", most of our historical sources are european or asian in comparison, and the 3 heavily influenced each other and wrote about each other. So it very easy to group Egypt in with the Mesopotamian/Asian and Greek/Europeans instead of Africans, in a Mediterranean centric viewpoint. This carried well past the bronze age. After all most of the Asian and European sources themselves did not have much contact with Africa south of Egypt, so why would they associate much historical documentation with them. Egypt was Egypt, they barely had a concept of Africa or geography. Sadly such sources like Library of Alexandria probably had more information on early African interactions, and perhaps much was lost from Phoenician/Carthage sources in their African migration.
Egyptian civilization (predynastic) was born in intetior Africa. Sorry insecure white guy
Egyptian civilisation was not grouped as part of the "fertile crescent" that is purely a modern invention by eurocentric historians and the British museum.
Egyptians were Africans and saw their kin as being the people to the south and interior of Africa not Asia. They spoke an African language and had an African culture. They had significant contact and trade and diplomatic/political relations with nations within sub-saharan africa moreso than anything they had with Asian nations.
There's also the fact that Egyptians depicted themselves as racially identical to sub-sah aran afri cans rather than As ians or ber bers or Eu ros.
@Ario They arent random claim, they're factual statements.
@@jeromejenkins2539
"Egyptian civilisation was not grouped as part of the "fertile crescent" that is purely a modern invention by eurocentric historians and the British museum."
"Fertile crescent" is a term that is contemporary, but describes the physical reality of the period. It isn't eurocentric because the fertile crescent isn't in Europe and makes no claims to be European.
"Egyptians... saw their kin as being the people to the south and interior of Africa not Asia."
No, there's zero evidence that the Egyptians saw themselves as Subsaharan Africans.
"They spoke an African language and had an African culture."
No, they spoke an Afroasiatic language like the rest of the Mid East. Culturally, they shared most with the Laurasian group than anything from the Congo.
"They had ...relations with nations within sub-saharan africa moreso than anything they had with Asian nations."
Their power and much of their trade was centred on the Mediterranean.
🗣️🥠Honesty and Truth are refreshing🥛 when you meet them. They are very good friends. Keep shine ✨🔆💡on it. 😎👍🏾
I guess this woman forgot that Heroditus also said the Lacadaemon peoples were Dorian, and that they came down from the North. *shrug*
Also, DNA proved Egypt was not black African, though you will be lucky to find that stated anywhere, wouldn't want to hurt any feelings.
Ok, how the hell would Egypt be more influential to the Greeks than the much closer and more similar culturally, linguistically, Hittites?
He does NOT say they came from the north. He says they were from South Thessaly, moved to NW Greece where they were called ~''Makedni'' (ethnos Makednon) and then moved south at some point.
Essentially there is no source that places them outside what is now Greece.
Lie, no DNA proves that ancient Egyptians were not Black. They were Black and so shall it be until the end of time. Your 2017 DNA was about 3 mummies from Greco-Roman period in Egypt. Noting more than that
E1b1a
@@sekoukelleh1003lol they have tested over 1500 bodies.
@@joelhungerford8388, no. They tested 32.
Why are we acting like white-Jewish people are a full on minority, their whiteness is there and is very much present. ( White people who happen to be Jewish need to acknowledge the Intersections)
One example is Palestine, there are full on Caucasian European people that have colonized Palestine and have put her people through the most, but whenever they get called out “it’s anti-semitism,” because they happen to be Jewish.
Black people can be anti-Semitic and any type of prejudice except racism, when will people understand that.
Being Jewish is a religion, so it’s beyond to how is viewed as a race, cause there are black Jews, white Jews, it’s like saying Italian’s a race 😂.
Lol. Except racism?
@@rififienforce Yes except racism, if racism is systemic( checkout the definition of systemic racism before comment on my reply)it is impossible for a black person to be racist. Because race is a sensitive topic for some people, another example: woman can’t be misogynistic because we live in the patriarchy, every single guy is misogynistic including me but I gotta work on that and check myself out and say “woah hold on, do I really wanna say that?”, the next time I make a misogynistic joke or the next time I say something dumb about women and somebody calls me out. I gotta receive the criticism and do better, it really is that simple.
If you go to the British Museum in the Greek section. You'll see many clay pottery vases. Decorated with many black people portrait on them. Alongside other pictures of other races.
Yes Socrates was from Zimbwabwe
I couldn't tell what she was even trying to say through the video so i had to read the comments and piece together what i assume she was saying... And apparently its like, We wuz Kangs n shieet? Wut lol
Honestly, I don't think I was aware of race issues in classics when I took it in college. Nothing was ever mentioned. I'm glad to learn more about this and do more research.
I am glad you watched! Thanks for commenting!
On a positive note, this video made me think of the prevailing narratives on Greek colonization. Greek colonies tend to be portrayed as places were the "natives" were naturally dominated and assimilated by their superiors. Actual evidence, although limited, seems to contradict this narrative. It would be cool to look into both Greek colonization itself and how academia interprets it. Sicily and Ionia are the most interesting areas and also the only areas I've actually seen scholarly works on. What do you think? :)
How does evidence contradict that view?
@@g-rexsaurus794 While it would take a book to give a good answer I will say this. The most interesting and compelling evidence relates to Artemis Ephesia and her non-Hellenic origins: www.mcgill.ca/classics/files/classics/2005-6-05.pdf
@@MarinheiroMuculmano That doesn't disprove the idea that natives were the ones assimilating towards Greek, yes bilateral influence exists but doesn't change the core of the dyanamic
@@g-rexsaurus794 you misunderstand me. I agree that, in general and over time, Hellenization occured in those areas, otherwise I wouldn't be Greek ;). What the evidence goes against is that it was a simple cultural replacement, similar to how people interpret the colonization of the Americas. Take for example the relations between the Lydians and the Ionians. The Greeks were mostly the inferior group in this case. The use of coinage was adopted from them as well. Feel free to check out some literature on the Hellenization of Anatolia and Sicily. I am not interested nor qualified to teach a course on this, especially via youtube comments.
m.th-cam.com/video/M99ze151HvA/w-d-xo.html
This supposed expert professor obviously has ideological biases. She shows this in every opportunity and in most cases her opinions are not even supported by the majority of expert scholars in the field! Stop calling her in your channel, cause I will personally unsubscribe if I see her once more in the future!
Well said. Hellas? Yes!
When they only blackwash North Africa, it is not a problem?
This woman makes me think she’s secretly arguing on behalf of the aryan theory
Probably because you are into Black Athena
JEWISH IS NOT A RACE!!!!…
Funny is that "Black Athena" is not yet translated in Greek. I'm curius to read what's in it.
A growing pathetic trend of arguing what colour did what and where in history. Fools! Does who did what in the past help with the present and the future? NO! Keep racism out of the classroom. Only with unity can we survive!
Black people have been preaching that for 400-plus years
@@JamesWilliams-ki5pq lol. What black peoples? Americans ?
Now you are preaching blackwashing North Africa, that is racism.
Someone forgot to inform you greek mythology is allegorical.....
GREAT video! Very thoughtful discussion, thanks for posting
Glad you enjoyed it!
Truth is not black or white. Greeks originally came from Egypt and they were "brown" in the beginning. Dorians, Ionians and Pelasgians were indigenous Europeans and "white" aryan so to say. Today's Greeks are mixture of all these races + Turks, even though they don't like to hear it. Herodotus wrote himself that Greeks were minority at the Balkan peninsula in the beginning.
Egyptians and Pelasgians and Natufians were Black people.
Sigh, another modern framework arrogance...
The Egyptian, Greek, Carthaginian, Phoenician cultures, etc. were more related to one another than Northern Europe or Sub Saharan Africa. It is just as ridiculous to call it "black" as "aryan". That said, there is a strong historical demarcation between the Ancient Egyptians and the black Nubians, so to call Egypt....let alone the Greeks "black" amounts to some absurd historical revisionism.
The ancient egyptians were mixed. Most were "black" Africans and some fewer in the north were mixed race and "brown"/levantine type. Egyptians were not berbers.
@Ario Oh yes it does
@Ario Yes it does
m.th-cam.com/video/M99ze151HvA/w-d-xo.html
Where the ancient Greeks even 'white'?? Most Greeks I know today even all these centuries of intermixing still look West Asian. You can barely distinguish them from Turks and people from the Levant. Brown ppl basically
This is a discredit to archeology and all forms of Anthropology. Fantasy has little place in the hollowed realm of this field.
🙄
Shouting and saying people - who are to a great part dead - are racist is very weak in character. The literature mostly tries to give an original impression even when copying. So are the scholars to be blamed that the Danaides gave the idea that they are sprung up from nowhere? That is what most Texts give. Quite easy judging from here perspective to claim they did. ist on purpose. First thumbs down here.
I really appreciate you taking on controversial topics
Dr. Mary Lefkowitz is still living. Perhaps she might be persuaded to write and weigh in on this forum and put this in its proper perspective just like she did in the 1970’s.
She never did they walked all over her because her points were not valid you literally dont no your own history and they are educating you on it, i speak greek i can tell you they are accurate its just your ancient ancestors were not racist and your recent ancestors are i see you may have been heavily influenced by this as well as hollywood white washing everything but that doesnt make it true , the levant dna study over highlighted a much later dynasty far from when it was in antiquity , thats like you digging up white new york settlers and saying they were there first when we know they dont predate the Indians that came before them in the us