Did Mycenaean Greece and the Hittite Empire ever Interact? The Ahhiyawa Question
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 มี.ค. 2020
- The Ahhiyawa question - a mystery that has baffled many archaeologists and historians for over a century. "Ahhiyawa" is a word that appears in a few Hittite texts, most prominently in one called the "Tawagalawa letter." It refers to an unidentified kingdom which some believe may have been one of the great Mycenaean city-states. But is this true? We'll examine some of the evidence and then you decide!
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Ancient drinking game: every time Urhi-Teshub speaks of brotherhood, take a shot.
Lol hope you have a lot of alcohol for that. Thanks for stopping by and stay safe my friend!
I'm faded
Dilute the wine, make it last longer.
@@piperar2014 otherwise would be barbaric
😄😄😄
Most scholars seem very hostile to the idea that the Homeric epics are valuable in a reconstruction of Mycenaean Greece. These texts obviously dont completely vindicate the existence of an overarching wanax like Agamemnon, but it is just part of a range of evidence suggesting the dark age Greeks remember more than they are usually given credit for. Absolutely love the videos Cy, keep up the great work!
Mycenaean era and how they took over those around them and then seemed to disappear left behind what fueled Homer's epics. To later Greeks that was the time when gods and man met on earth. Mycenaean lived during the bronze age.Could these epics be tales of long ago battles told and passed down through time. Homer writes them down? there never is a complete dark age some one is doing something somewhere. may be these are the tales they are passing down. interesting info cy.
@@ruthnovena40 I also see them as tales being passed down the generations. And befor ewritten down such stories chamge slightly at least on the way. And when they were told, they were already told from the prespective of the Greek religious beliefs: they were not quite eyewitness stories, but legends. So they carry truth and fantasy mixed :) They are invaluable at least in that some of that info is found nowhere else. And being legends, they are not documents.
The Mycenaean lived in the Bronze age. Didn't the Persian wars happen also in the Bronze Age? What about Alexander - did they already use iron equipment? I thought that was still Bronze Age - but I could well be wrong: I'm not the best in these timing things, and comparing cultures in the same moment in time is tough.
I don't think the Mycenaeans disappeared. It was just the late Bronze Age collapse taht reduced the archaeological finds to minimum. People had to live simple life with simple tools living almost no evidence. Before wealth started to pile up again. The simple lifestyle also avoided the looting warbands, the Sea People etc. Some of them likely were Hellenistic people. But such criminal bands are like locusts - they don't settle to create culture: they just waste material goods. Hand to mouth until the grave.
But the ancient glory days of the Hellenistic forfathers (Mycenaeans etc.) became the stuff of legends: culture in the minds didn't disappear. It just altered, more on some things, less in other - like happens over time.
@@timomastosalo The persian wars were during the Iron Age
@@lianko2000 sorry, but you jump too much into conclusions. I've read history a lot. It's not that. It's just that no matter how much I read, I have hard time with the numbers, the dates. I only can memorize the developments wel between cultures, when they are represented next to each other, showing which level the technology was in each country during certain contacts or rulers.
The Mycenaeans are often told about alone, without references to the neighbours. For example, Elamites are compared to Sumerians, when their history is told, so I find it easier to track. I have difficulty to track, what the Mycenaeans had, in their culture and what not. And were they Greeks, Proto-Greeks, some mix, pr something else. Or did different nations have Mycenaean culture at the same time - like for example the Greek forefathers, and some previous inhabitants in what became known as the Hellas of the Antiquities?
The Greek language have features from some earlier language(s) in the peninsula. Just recently saw a map in a TH-cam video about the development of the Greek language, where it was nicely illustrated how the Greek dialects were formed. Part of the development of the southern Attican dialect was the mixing to that pre-Hellenistic language (or many) in southern Greece.
The cultural impact of these people might jave been so drastic, that the greek really only learned the wine culture and other Mediterranean lifestyle knacks from them. this is shown how the Atheneans etc. scorned on the Macedonians, thinking they were not really Greeks.
It was maybe the lifrstyle of the Macedonians as simple shepherds mostly - the cultural difference that did it. For I understand they spoke an old version of Dorian dialects, so somewhat related to Spartan and Western dialects especially. scholars and historians are debating about were the Macedonians Greek or not. I think they were - I don't think their names were translated, other than maybe weeding out the most unique dialectal features. Like in comparison the Persian names were not translated, but their sound structure was fit to the Greek phonetics, sound system. I think Alexander was a real Macedonian Greek name, for example.
So if scholars still debate and can't agree - please don't jump quickly into conclusions, whether some commentator here has read history or not :) In this case, I just wasn't sure did the Mycenaens have bronze items already. I remember ethey did. But I have difficulties anchoring them in the history: were they the early Greeks, or a mix. or does the archaeological term point to many cultures with somewhat similar artifacts?
@@lianko2000 And so often people are doing what they accuse others for. You still seem to speak like someone having read the basics, then thinking that re-evaluating, pondering texts mean someone is 'ignorant'. It's just that the real picture is more messy than school books.
I just told you the scholars argue, if Alexander was Greek or not - the Macedonians, that is. Letters in Greek are then for those excluding Macedon from the 'Hellosphere' as writings by somone who learned the language, and wants to 'brown-tongue' himself to be accepted as a Greek.
I said I think the Macedonians of the Antiquity were Greek - not all the Greek agree with this: now or then. Are you a Greek? I'm not, I listen to them, and scholars on the field. I'm a bit puzzled you don't notice that...
Remind you, these are not my inventions, but read from the texts of the Greeks: the Atheneans (many, maybe par some) didn't think Macedonians as Greeks- This is from a history channel, whose video you can watch. Not some fan video, but by historians.
Hope there's no need for arhuements on this level anymore. I'm happy to talk about real historical topics, when you drop the social media attitude. Or you can stop answering - I'll rather talk with those who are interested in the history itself. Hope you can be one of them. This isn't a popularity contest, 'voting for truths' in social media - you don't need that passion. But digging into the history beyond the school bools.
If I have some dating wrong - like I sometimes have, and I'm not young anymore: stuffing precise years in my head takes longer than in school years- there are more important numbers I HAVE to know. This is more like a hobby since 80s where I sporadically return.
So if there's a fact you want to address, do that - drop the 'social influencing', keep your calm. Or is the ancient Greek history so dear to you you react emotionally? Calm down. If something sounds odd, ask the source, don't lable it ignorant - that makes you sound ... ignorant.
Many claims I say may be just probing, if that would leave forward. Like what the researchers do also, but they have a vastly larger material where to lean on. And I'm MOSTLY basing my guesses on the facts the historians have shared. If you want to participate, stay constructive.
Urhi-Teshub to Adad-nirari I:
"I'm not your brother, pal!"
"Hey guy, I'm not your buddy!"
Yeah, was the ultimate diss... I'd love to be a fly on the wall when that letter was read to Adad-nirari... seeing his reaction would have been priceless.
Thanks for stopping by and stay safe!
It reminded me of when Timur the Conqueror(Tamerlane) and Beyazid the Thunderbolt would talk trash to each other before they went to war in the late14th century
@@HistorywithCy Thanks, stay safe as well! I'm really enjoying your content btw!
@@Schmerb Thank you, comments like this motivate me to make more of these! Stay safe my friend!
Ahhiyawa or Achiyawa sounds more similar to Achaioi or in English: Achaeans as what Homer said about what the Greek used to be called in the age of Heroes. Instead of Mycenaeans as what moden scholars today using.
Of course.
"What do you think?" Yes, it is. I've translated several of the Ahhiyawa texts, including the Tawagalawa Letter (I prefer to call it the Piyama-Radu Letter, since the letter is about him. It was at first called the Tawagalawa Letter because an ambiguous pronoun was thought to refer to Tawagalawa, its precedent, although it was later realized it referred to Piyama-Radu instead. Piyama-Radu is a fun character to read about. He was an annoying pain in the ass for multiple Hittite kings.)
I'm not sure where to best start putting forth the argument that Ahhiyawa is a reference to Mycenaean Greece. There are several documents that, taken together, along with geographic names found scattered throughout texts, make the Mycenaean connection clear.
Wow, that is so awesome! If you don't mind me asking, what got you into studying Hittite? Have you also studied Luwian? I'm fascinated with ancient languages, though I've only dabbled in Old and Middle Persian (they teach them at one of the local universities) and tried to teach myself some basics of the Babylonian dialect of Akkadian...not gotten too far with the last one.
Any books or studies on Ahhiyawa you'd recommend? The main ones I used were Beckman's "Ahhiyawa Texts" and a couple of Trevor Bryce's books. I definitely want to delve more into the subject though.
Thanks again, appreciate your comments...stay safe!
@@HistorywithCy In an undergrad independent study class, we decided to do papers on the Late Bronze Age Near East. The big powers at the time were Egypt, the Hittites, and Babylon, with the Greeks being something-or-other just off-stage, so to speak. One person wanted to do Mycenaean Greece, the other wanted to do Egypt, and I just love all of history. We don't know much about Kassite Babylon, so, by default, I did a paper on the Hittites, specifically Suppiluliuma I. That made me realize that all the things that make the Hittites so forgettable in common history books - i.e. the lack of information about them - is what makes them so awesome as a subject of research. So I wound up going to grad school studying them. We actually have a TON more information about them than people realize, and we learn more every year. But as a society we don't feel the same deep connection to Hittite society the way we do to Greek, Egyptian, and Assyro-Babylonian, so people just aren't as interested in it. It's a shame, because they really are awesome.
Yes, I've studied Luwian - in both its hieroglyphic and cuneiform versions. And Hittite, obviously. If you know Hittite, you can almost accidentally read Luwian. The primary difference is that the Hittte vowel e/i- is the vowel a- in Luwian. Obviously, there are plenty more differences, but once you take that one difference into account, the languages look remarkably similar. Hittite's a wonderful language once you get into it. It uses a lot of prepositions and post-positions that indicate direction (up, down, in, out, on top, below, this side, that side, etc.). So when you read it, there's this wonderful poetic fluidity to it that feels like waves rolling back and forth. And, given that it was the international language of its day, I've also studied Akkadian. Akkadian is the first language I studied that was structured fundamentally differently from the familiar Indo-European languages, which is both fascinating and a pain in the butt. In good literature, it's an incredibly nuanced language that, with the right professor to break it down and explain it, really gives you an intimate connection with whatever you are reading, so that you feel like you are right there in the author's world. Translations into English just can't do that language justice. Well, the same is true for any language, really. If you don't read something in its original language, something really is lost in translation. Despite its difficulty, Akkadian does make you appreciate differences in language families. The Hurrian language is structured differently from both Indo-European and Semitic languages, being closer in structure to something like modern Turkish.
By the way, there is a channel here on TH-cam, "Digital Hammurabi", where they cover ancient Near Eastern topics. The husband has a graduate degree, and his wife is writing her dissertation (at least, I don't think she's finished it yet). They have videos on learning Sumerian, Biblical Hebrew, and Middle Egyptian. I thought they did Akkadian also, but I don't see a playlist for it. Although they do have a playlist for Mesopotamian literature. Anyway, it's a channel you should check out if you don't know about it already.
No books I can think of for Ahhiyawa that you need to worry about. I've got one in German, but if you have Beckman's book, then you've got textual sources, and source material is always the best material! I have mixed feelings about Trevor Bryce's stuff. He has the advantage of outliving and out-publishing the scholars who disagree with his interpretations of Hittite history. I wound up writing my own history of the Hittites, although only for my personal use as I tried to fit together all the pieces that I was learning.
Luwian studies is advancing rapidly these days. It's been strange to see ideas about Bronze Age Anatolia transitioning from being called a Hittite culture to being called a Luwian culture with Hittite laid on top of a bit of it. I'm not sure what the most recent best book for Luwian studies is, but there is a single volume book , "The Luwians", edited by H. Craig Melchert, that covers all aspects of Luwian studies, and includes a chapter on their history written by Bryce. But like I said, things are changing rapidly, and that book is from 2003.
Hi, thank so much for your reply... this is so fascinating, the stuff I had wanted to do and thinking about one day pursuing in the future. I have run into the "Digital Hammurabi" site but not seen any of the videos but will check it out.
Yeah most of the books I have about the Hittites are by Bryce and I suppose I use them because they're the most recent that I've come across. I do have Oliver Gurney's "The Hittites" which I had read a long time ago. There's a new book coming out by Dr. Ian Rutherford called "Hittite Texts and Greek Religion: Contact, Interaction, and Comparison" on Amazon that I saw, but at the moment, there doesn't seem to be a release date for it.
Anyway, once again, thanks so much for your insight into all of this. It's VERY much appreciated. Hope to learn from you and hear more of your thoughts in the future. Stay safe out there!
@@Bramble451 Hittite a poetic language? Interesting how Homer refers to the Trojans as speaking more poetically than the Achaeans.
@@Bramble451 Fantastic elaboration on the work on and differences between the languages of the Near East. Enjoyed reading this response to History with Cy.
Great video. A lot of people also forget that the Island of Cyprus also had Mycenaean Greek settlers living there. Nobody really knows exactly when they arrived or what they would have been called but probably would have been around 1200BC-ish when they arrived. Cyprus is only 40 miles away from Anatolia and 60 miles away from Syria so would have been large amounts of Greek contact with the eastern empires from this location.
Hmm, that's a really interesting point that honestly I wasn't thinking about. The general name for Cyprus in the Near East was Alashiya, but I don't know if the Hittites had another name for it... I assumed that they called it by the same name as the others but who knows. I have to look up their name for Cyprus. There was contact between Egypt and Cyprus during the same period as the Amarna letters show, but in those texts the pharaoh doesn't address the ruler he's corresponding with as a "Great King," so that might be an argument against Ahhiyawa and Cyprus being one and the same. Fascinating stuff nevertheless and thanks for commenting... you point is a very thought-provoking one!
Thanks also for stopping by, I really appreciate it! Stay safe!
@@HistorywithCy Thanks for producing awesome videos. Amazing to be able to find such detailed information about ancient history delivered in an entertaining way.
@@savvageorge Thanks, but the credit goes to viewers like you who take an interest in this stuff...motivates me to put out more for y'all. Stay safe!
According to greek legend Cyprus was colonized by Greeks after the trojan war.
@@HistorywithCy The Hittites briefly conquered Alashiya during the reign of their last king, in the first recorded naval battle in history.
Yes, I believe they were the same. I expect with continuing Anatolian archaeology, especially with the so far little-known Luwians, archives will be found that will fill in much of these mysteries.
Yeah, that makes sense. Reading up on Luwians right now... I love their hieroglyphics...
Thanks for stopping by, I really appreciate it!
I've translated a few of those Luwian hieroglyphic texts. :-) And the Hittite kings and other important people loved to use the hieroglyphs in their seals. I don't know if anyone has proposed it, but I believe that the hieroglyphs evolved out of various symbols you can find on seals from the _karum Kanesh_ period.
I think they were. A century ago it was popular to assume that ‘primitive civilizations’ could not have mastered the sea enough to have had contact. Now we know they did and in large numbers. We have found Bronze Age Greek pottery in throughout the Levant.
Very interesting video! There is a number of Hittite documents that highlights their interactions with the Achaeans. There is even a Hittite translation of a letter sent by an Achaean king where he recalls past events (Hatti subjugation of the Assuwa confederation) and lays claims to certain islands. Keep up the good work!
ahhiyawa is easily linked to achaioi because in homeric and times earlier there was digamma between ai and oi. digamma represented a bilabial glide, our w sound. thus it was earlier achaiwoi [ΑΧΑΙFOI] also the same with Wilusha or Wilusa. the pre homeric a had the bilabial glide at the beginning of Ilios ie Wilios [FIΛΊΟΣ] or αχαιFοι and Fιλιος. by late archaic and classical times the digamma had disappeared along with sound, the unvoiced w still was retained as the invoiced aspiration at the beginning of words, thus .
the voiced aspiration at the beginning of a greek word indicated the loss of an initial sound.
I do believe they were the Myceneans, and also believe that even when we cannot take literally what Homer wrote I believe he was writing about events, places and people that were real and left a mark in the common mythos of the Aegean cultures but were very distorted due to the past of time.
It is astonishing how much says this letter with so few words… in first place this man Piyamaradu, he must been a warrior chieftain that was defeated by the Hittites and force to leave his land and family (allow me to enter in some speculation) we do not know if he was of Mycenean origin but what it seems is that he was welcome in ancient Greece by some king in order to scape Hittite retaliation for his activities, and for what is mentioned in the video, what interest can have a warrior to enter in mass deportation of people for labor? It seems to me that this king of Ahhiyawa use a proxy to engage in irregular warfare against… maybe an ally or at least a neighbor with whom have some treaties, keeping the card of plausible deniability? It is a pity that we don’t know how this history ends but reinforce my idea of how Homer wrote about real things distorted. The way him and other Greek “historians” speak about a glorious and heroic past pretty much could they have this origins in real people as Piyamaradu.
Also the options in the deal made by Hattushili reminds me of others “contemporaneous” characters of that time specially that “he was resettled with his retinue in some other land”. If we inspect all mythology set in that time period we see a lot of heroes/patriarchs that must leave their lands with their people and find another place… (Aeneas, Abraham, Moses)
As side note, this king of Ahhiyawa that is called brother by Hattushili. I don’t think that the lords of Hattusa called brother a little king of a backwater island of the Aegean, specially after the bold letter that Urhi-Teshub wrote to Adad-nirari. It must be someone of relevant importance, a powerful warlord. Could it be the source for the inspiration to Agamenon? Hattushili lived in the period that Eric Cline suggest that happened the war with Wilusa(Troy).
Hi, thanks so much for your detailed comments and explanation. I also agree that the two sides met but where and how closely is what puzzles me. For example, the western part of the Hittite Empire was made up of many small, vassal states that were not Hittite in origin, and with powerful enemies such as Hurrians, Assyrians and up until Hattushili also the Egyptians signed a peace treaty (though not an alliance which would come later), my thoughts are that they'd have concentrated the bulk of their forces in the east. I think in the west they probably ruled by proxy or satellite kingdoms, much in the way that the Soviets held power over eastern some eastern European countries during the Cold War or how Iran holds sway over parts of the Middle East today via its proxies in the region.
As for Piyamaradu, scholars describe him as a rebellious Hittite subject, through from where isn't known exactly. My guess is that he was from that western region near Miletus and probably was promised a kingdom of his own from King of Ahhiyawa, who also wanted a foothold in western Anatolia. However, according to later documents and treaties from Hattushili's successor, it seems that eventually the Ahhiyawan king lost possession of any territories in western Anatolia because he's no longer mentioned as a Great King and in one document, his name is even purposely blotted out.
Really interesting stuff... thanks again for stopping by and your thoughts... I really appreciate them. Stay safe!
VERY distorted. Storytellers disregard linear time and telescope events centuries apart into the same tale. They may make legendary names into mythic names, but this squeezing of all non-literary tales into the same epic means no epic is to be trusted for veracity. Homer seems to have never heard of the Hittite Empire that surrounded Ilios!
That is a great idea Cy. I usually end up listening to Professor Michael Wood. His presentation of In Search of The Trojan War was epic. And then he follows it up with In the Footsteps of Alexander the Great. I just love you historians and also archaeology. These two disciplines fascinate me!
They should seriously include The Hittie Empire in Sid Myer's Civilization. As well as Aksum.
Oh I love that game...no joke, probably devoted several years of life to that game ... actually, I played X-wing vs. Tie Fighter more by Civ and Sim City were definitely up there...good times!
Stay safe my friend!
@@HistorywithCy I love star wars too!
@@HVLLOWS1999 Oh man I love star wars... the first video I actually published on this channel was a star wars one - dealt with the relationship between Obi-wan and Vader. However, I went full into ancient history since there are already a lot of amazing star wars channels out there (Stupendous Wave, Star Wars Theory, Star Wars Explained) that I love watching, so really no need to create one.
Sweet... stay safe and may the force be with you!
@@HistorywithCy TRUE! However you could do in depth ancient Star Wars history and I mean ancient like the formation of the GR the rise and fall of Xim's Empire and the beginning and history of the Hutt civilization, The pre-rakata Sith culture on Korriban, the Rakata Infinite Empire. The Celestials ,The history of the Mandalorians and how they and Humans share a common ancestor race etc.
As well as Old Republic history Star Wars is deep!
(legends please! Cannon I don't like but that just me)
@@HVLLOWS1999 dude I love the Old Republic...funny thing is I never played the original Knights of the Old Republic game, but I read most of the comics and a few of the novels including Revan. I'm really interested in seeing how the High Republic material is going turn out... I hope it doesn't stray too far from some of the already good Legends material. I might do a video on similarities between Star Wars and history, for example, similarities between the Jedi Order and the Knights Templar or how George Lucas really modeled the sage after the classic hero's journey found all throughout history. Those would be fun topics to explore...
I have seen this argument before, in a book about the Hittites, and I think it is probably correct. Notice that contention is about an area that we know was under strong influence from further west, and that the Hittite king chose diplomacy, most likely because he could not easily get to the culprits directly, most likely because they were raiders from across the sea. Add to that the similarity
Many thanks. quite interesting. Please - but I know it will be difficult - try to give us more information about Piramayadu = Priam of Troy./ Wilusa = (W)ILION = Troy, (W)ILION being the citadel of the city of TROY as described in the Iliada. It was pronounced WiIlion at that time but then the W disappeared. Thanks a lot.
I never knew about this connection so Ii learned something new today which is why I love history so much. You also pronounced many of these terms in a great way so keep it up! I do personally think they had contact due to the texts thus found, and I know we will find more archeology to finally make a 100% connection between the two kingdoms.
I'm fascinated for this subject. Hard to find much. Loved this video. Please, make more about it!
Thanks so much for stopping by, I really appreciate it! Glad you liked the video and no worries, more on the way! Stay safe!
I belive that Ahhiyawa & Mycenaean Greece is the same
I agree... in my humble opinion the evidence of the extent of Mycenaean Greece's influence and the time period make me believe this too.
Thanks for stopping by, stay safe!
Great content as always!
Thanks so much, I really appreciate the kind words...stay safe!
I believe Ahhiyawan is what Egyptians referred 'sea people' also Mycenaean because Ancient Greek was a pirate reconciled community as what Thucydides referred to. Also, Mycenae did not fall from external attack but because of drought(this argument is still debatable, I did not find any burning evidence at the excavation site of Mykines. From those implication, Mycenae was hugely operated their economy with foreign booties than farming or herding.
You are a legend man, love your vids
I am overjoyed that you have covered this topic. Very good! They certainly had contact, as there were Mycenaean colonies on Cyprus. Just a day's sailing from Kizzuwatna.
Thanks for stopping by, I really appreciate it! Yes, I feel that they also met, though not everyone out there is convinced. More to come, stay tuned and more importantly, stay safe!
Plus in Cyprus they found on Turkish side a tomb of a warrior with a Trojan horse depiction from 850 bc. That's 100 years before homer suppose to have written the tale.
If you read the Iliad, the text infers that Achaioi was originally pronounced as AchaiWoi in Mycenaean Greek, with a lost "w" or digamma sound between the "ai" and "oi" .
This makes that name even closer to the Hittite "Achiyawa". The Greeks of the Iliad also refer to themselves as Danaioi and Argeoi. But NEVER by the term Hellenes used by modern Greeks.
I think there are references in the Hittite Texts to a king named Aleksandru and a place called Wilusa. Wilusa sounds a lot like Ilios which also had the lost digamma "w" sound initially as Wilios. Ilios being another name for Troy and Aleksandru sounding a lot like Alexander, an alternate name of Paris, son of Priam.
"But NEVER by the term Hellenes used by modern Greeks."
You're wrong,the term Hellenes is as old as homer.It's not Modern.
"The Achaeans (/əˈkiːənz/; Ancient Greek: Ἀχαιοί Akhaioí, "the Achaeans" or "of Achaea") constitute one of the collective names for the Greeks in Homer's Iliad (used 598 times) and Odyssey. The other common names are Danaans (/ˈdæneɪ.ənz/; Δαναοί Danaoi; used 138 times in the Iliad) and Argives (/ˈɑːrɡaɪvz/; Ἀργεῖοι Argeioi; used 182 times in the Iliad) ;all of the aforementioned terms were used synonymously to denote a common Greek civilizational identity"
@@Chrxstos no he is write, the name hellenes might be old and appeard in Homer BUT never to as an ethnonym for the Mycenaean Greeks. It is used as a tribe name of a very small group, the ethnonym used for mycenean greeks in the illiad is Achaeans and Dannans. He is not saying that the term is modern .
@@ultrasgreen1349 You're wrong,Hellenes as a term was also used few times in epic poems to describe the people
I think Troy was essentially a Proxy war between the Hittites & Mycenae.Sparta being a vassal of Mycenae & Troy a vassal of the Hittites.
Dear Cy, wonderful research as always. You could pronounce Αχαιοί, like this 'A-he-'i. Toning the A and i. The I little more.
Seems to me the preponderance of the evidence points toward an Achaian (Ahhiyawa) confederacy centred in Mykenai. The ruins of the castles-palaces are just too significant to downplay.
Fascinating stuff to be sure!
Great video as always. Doesn’t the initial part of this letter refer to a settlement over previous disputes over a territory called Wilusa, which has been equated by scholars to Troy? This increases the chances of this being a Hatti Mycenaean correspondence. Also I think there is a second letter.
Hi, thanks for stopping by! Yes, you are correct. The letter indicates that there was some past dispute between the two over Wilusa, which is mentioned twice. Quoting the translation,
"Do not be hostile from my land. If you(!)
would rather be in Karkiya or Masa, go there. The King of Hatti has persuaded me about the matter of the land of Wilusa concerning which he and I were hostile to one another, and we have made peace."
The 2nd reference to Wilusa:
"And to me, my brother, in the matter [ … ] Send it to me. And concerning the matter [of Wilusa] about which we were hostile-[because we have made peace], what then?"
There's also another letter from Hattusili's successor, Tudhaliya IV that also mentions Wilusa was governed by a certain Alaksandu.
If you're interested in the full translation, you might want to check out the book "The Ahhiyawa Texts" by Gary Beckman, Trevor Bryce and Eric Cline. These and other related letters are in there. If you need anything else, please don't hesitate to let me know. Thanks again for stopping by and stay safe!
History with Cy thank you. Thorough as always. It’s a coincidence that I was reading the translation of these letters about a month ago. It always amazes me that people think in the ancient times people did not travel far. Merchants and goods traveled across the whole known world and spy’s as well as armies sometimes followed. I am fascinated by the Bronze Age. Keep up the good work my friend.
@@Golshanim Thank you, will do! Stay safe!
My intuition says that the kingdom named is one of the Mycenaean city-states, or coalition as theorized (though I feel it being Agamemnon feels a jump without any other evidence.) Trade between greece and Hatti were definitely a thing, considering how copper and tin is sourced as well as proximity, and if greece had not been mentioned in any other way, it just feels the most likely possibility.
In modern Greek, αχαιοί is pronounced “ahei” with χ being pronounced as a Spanish jota. I do not know the pronunciation in old Greek, but the h in Ahhiyawa might suggest a pronunciation similar to that of modern Greek.
First! Love the videos Cy!
Thank you, I appreciate it!
There is plenty of evidence of peoples from aegean sea area interacting with coastal areas in the east. Its just the identity issue thats the problem. It does not help either, when the different nations use different names and portraits in describing foreigners that they encounter. It is very likely, that legendary mycenaean greek heroes did interact with The Hati. Example: guys like Jason and the argonauts; or Hercules; or even a mortal Dionysius; very likely wondered into Hati territory and encountered subjects of the Hati....such as Amazons, or centaurs, or the legendary king Midas of Phrigia. Heck...maybee Trojan kings before priam, where hati vassals? And they certainly interacted with aegean peoples.
The Hittite entonime "Ahhyawa" is identical with the Egyptian "Akhwesh" and describe the Acheeans, one of the aggresive
Sea People, which destroyed around 1250 the high Bronze civilisation from East Mediterrana, among the others the Hittite one.
Hittites were not completely destroyed in fact they existed during the Metal Age this is way they were mencen in the Bible
Interesting part is that obviously there must be written a response from the ahhiyawa king that would probably have been written in linear A or B that would help" in the first case " dechifer the script and learn more about that kingdom
Nice work, umm, brother🖖🏼
@ 10:56 Were mycenea and Ahhiyawa the same? What do you think? Maybe you know something that wasn't mentioned here - and perhaps you and Sosa know something that I don't know!
Considering they were technically neighbors, I imagine they had neutral relations at best.
War then peace then war then peace then war.... the typical pattern of international relations.
Hi, thanks for stopping by! I also personally believe that two sides met, both for trade and in battle as other letters (though not as complete as the Tawagalawa letter) seem to indicate. Most of these western regions were controlled indirectly by the Hittite kings through mostly Luwian and Arzawan vassals, so how much actual contact the Hittites themselves had with Greeks would be a really cool thing to explore further.
Thanks again for stopping by and stay safe!
I...did not..have neutral relations..with those city states.
Is there a Piemander or something close to that mentioned in the Illiad? Where do I remember that name from...it sounds very close to what a Luwian translation of Piymaradu would sound like. Hmm.
Jon Doe Priam in Homer
Hmmm...there is Trojan named Polydamas. Also, Priam had another son named Polydorus. They're minor characters in the epic though.
Thanks for stopping by, I really appreciate it...stay safe!
The answer is "Yes," resoundingly.
I have seen a doc where this letter is mentioned in contest of the Trojan conflict where Hattusali writes to Agamemnon to end hostilities toward Wilusa/Troy and Piyamadu is Priam. Eventuali Hattusali III drives to Lycia and sack the city then to Wilusa is sacked or was sacked before. He doesnt find a shine one.
Ahhiyawa or Ahiyowa probably was Greco-West Anatolian friends and minor rivals to the hittites. I am hittite descent and i find this cool and wonderful to know.
Hi, thanks for stopping by! Yeah that makes sense...I'm curious as to how much contact actual Hittites or people from Hatti would have had with them since most of their western states would have been controlled indirectly by Luwian and Arzawan vassals. Interesting stuff nevertheless... thanks again and stay safe!
@@lianko2000 Turks today have some hittite and greek in them.
@@lianko2000 i am saying that as a pride but modern turks of central asia mixed with greek and armenian and ancient anatolian like hittite.
Love the Mycenaeans.
I wish that there was a corpus of Mycenaean and Hittite texts. I know of a few sites where you can read a few translations. But the content is very limited.
Hi, thanks for stopping by! Check out the book "The Ahhiyawa Texts" by Gary Beckman, Eric Cline and Trevor Bryce. That has most of the ones related to Ahhiyawa and the Hittites. I used it as one of the sources for this video and it's pretty good. Hope all is well on your end...stay safe!
@@HistorywithCy Thanks.
I had heard of this letter before from "Collapse of the Bronze Age" by Manuel Robbins.
We should start translating other texts fast before Coronavirus causes the next collapse! haha
I came to this video because I am on the threshold of studying the Hittite language. I found your talk very interesting and have read all the conflicting comments. I will come back when I have studied the language and the history more and leave a comment if I can come to any conclusion.
Thanks, glad you found this video thought provoking. I hope to explore it more in the future, stay tuned and thanks so much for watching!
I am very curious about the Pelasgian peoples of old Greece, have you did any research into them Cy?
I love you videos
Thanks so much, I really appreciate it! I love my viewers!
Hi Cy love your channel. I learned the pronunciation of some of these names from "In Search of the Trojan War" with the great Michael Wood. Also check out the website "The Greek Age of Bronze". Some misspellings but content great except for calling Hattusili III Hattusili II. I'm sure they meant the former. So Achaeans are " A K Woi", Piyamardu - "Pi ya mare a douche" or Pi ya mare a doo. Ta wa gal a wa. they think in Greek it's Eteocles brother of the Ahhiyawan king. Boy the epigraphers must have a helluva a time!! LOL. Emil For er. Sorry to be an idiot but I watch all of these docs (love them) and the pronunciations are usually all over the place. But hey we all try our best. And no one knows what pronunciation is correct. Thanks again. I am a subscriber and I am now moving on the your doc on the Sumerians. The French did a nice doc on them also.
Hi, thanks so much for your comments and the info, really appreciate it! Yeah the pronunciation is often difficult and usually what I try to do is to find professors online and listen to how they say certain names and places. You're correct about the different pronunciations - for example, I've hear British historians/archaeologist say a name one way while a German will say it another.
I didn't know of the website you listed and I'll definitely check it out, but I have heard of Michael Wood and found the series you mentioned on TH-cam. Have yet to see it but as I will definitely revisit this topic in the future, will watch it with keen interest. Thanks again for stopping by and the info, really appreciate it. More to come, stay safe!
A theory I've seen before, is that Assuwa, later Arzawa is the same as Ahhiyawa, with sound change over time due to Hittite influence, what again gave Achaeans - Note the coalition the two at times formed against the Hitties.
Thus some of the tribes that would become the Greeks came also from Asia minor, somewhere prior to the bronze age collaps.
The Assuwa federation should have formed somewhere before 1400 BC. if I remember correct.
The interesting part, from a Scandinavian viewpoint to the Indoeuropean tribal waves, that the different As-/Os tribes we know from antiquity north-east of the black sea and all the way to the borders of China, ex.Asii, Aorsi, Ossi, Issedones, Yuezhi etc. might be a leftover from one of the first major tribal Indoeuropean groups, that came with the wave 4.000 years ago, and/or the one 3.000 years ago into Scandinavia as well.
The tribe left a imprint from India to Ireland, over Iran, and up north to Scandinavia, and in southern Europe.
In Scandinavia as the Aser/Æsir (Note Snorri mentions that they came from the Don river area, while Dudo mentions a connection between the Danes and the Danaans).
In Irish as a possible folklore connection, note: Aos Sí, Aes Sidhe, Daoine Sídhe, and Tuatha Dé Danann.
In what now is Italy then the Etruscans borrowed heavily from Greece and Asia minor, and their gods were as such called Ais/Aisar.
In Iran and the Middle east we have Ahuras in the Zoroastrianism.
And in India we have the Asura.
All the cultures you described are descended from the Proto-Indo-European tribe and they all carried over many elements from the original PIE language. So it's best to look in that direction if you want a connection
@@TheBacknblack92 that was kinda my point ;)
I learned to pronounce the homeric word for greek as Ah-kaa-yoi (the first A 'short' (as in 'Ahh', the second A 'long' similar as in YA) Ahhiyawa -> Achaioi would make sense to me, if you add an i to Achaioi: Akh-Ki-aa-yoi. (I am from the Netherlands, pronunciation in other countries might differ: e.g. English latin sounds really weird to me)
Haha thanks, I appreciate it! Yeah, I'm always careful with my pronunciation of words from ancient languages...I never truly know if what I'm saying is completely correct. Thanks for sharing you tips and for stopping by...stay safe!
In the Aleksandu letter, I think there is reference to a conflict with the Greeks and the Hatusili III letter refers to previous hostilities. I think this previous event, circa 1300 BCE was in fact the real Trojan war. It happened at least a century before the Bronze Age collapse and about 50 years before the Trojan walls were destroyed by earthquake. During the times of Sea People when the Greeks and Luwians allied against the Hittites and Egyptians, the old war was mythologized. That is why we have both the Greek and Trojan sides of the story: When the bards composed the stories, the old enemies were now friends, in the same raiding parties.
Trying to piece together the past from the fragments we have (and can decypher) is like trying to picture what our ancestors looked like from the fossils that have been found.
I would track trade routes first to see whom the Hittite traded with and possible locations with what they sought most.. 2nd check the name Ahhiyawa's origins and if anything similar was used in that region.
There is a scarcity of information. Trade routes are inferred. The region is largely pre-historic in the sense that we simply haven't found any archives in western Anatolia, although we know they existed. More archaeology needs to be done in western Anatolia. So most of our information comes from fragmentary Hittite documents.
@@Bramble451 indeed more digging please.. same problem in Iraq.. we have tons of archeology underground begging for sun light.
Yeah that's a good strategy... I'm sure they traded indirectly with them through Luwian or Arzawan middlemen... I'm just really curious about the actual contact between the Hittite kings and Ahhiyawa...for example, did they exchange ambassadors, did they actually meet on the battlefield or was it indirectly through proxy armies. Those types of details are what fascinate me.
Thanks again for stopping by and stay safe!
Hit the nail on the head. Western Anatolia, the land of Arsawa tribes.
Constant competition between them and the Hittites for control of trade routes & ports.
This is the only website about ancient Near East history which is both understandable and interesting to me! As one watches them, one gets a glimmer of a complete whole of the history of the Ancients! Thanks, you Elamite, you!
Haha so glad that you enjoyed this and other videos. Honestly, I love making these and comments like yours inspire me to make more of them. Thanks for stopping by, I really appreciate it...stay safe!
The Achaeans operated as a loose confederation headed by Mycenae , if we believe the Iliad. They could act together but Mycenae did not control them. This could be why the Hittite king is vexed. The king of Mycenae might speak for the Greeks in a general sense but he could not control the border kingdoms. If the Iliad has any relation to reality, these lords were jealous and quick to anger, and action.
This is brilliant video, really interested into Hittites in recent time, and maybe you will laugh but some of their names and everyting sounds like they came from Polynesia haha
Haha that's interesting... I never thought of that. I really like the Mitanni names though... Artatama, Shaushtartar, Tushratta...they just sound really cool.
Stay safe!
Tawagalawa letter is the oldest recorded usage of bruh...
LOL quite possibly though I think there are similar letters that are a bit older. Thanks so much for stopping by, really appreciate it! Stay safe!
Great how the maps only show 4 of the 5 super powers.
Perhaps the Hittite rulers were surprised to what the Achaeans did to Troy and how they seem to cause them a lot of trouble, being superior sailors than the Hitittes. Perhaps this was a stalling method until they could be dealt with later.
There were two things. The first in temple area not to far from what u were talking about they found a buried Mycenaean sword, and written on it was these were taken in a battle and this was one of at least a dozen of the same type, that are buried there. The second , in Egypt during the reign of amenhotep the third on a base of a statue are named various Cities but they have Mycenaean cities as well. I believe that when they raided Hittite territory they act under one King who they elected, this way they could attack larger targets and gain more booty and slaves. Did you know the Mycenaeans had a city on cypress, unfortunately looters found it first and did a lot of damage, were in cypress it is I don't know, can anybody help
Pyamaradu (sp?) the Hittite general who was in rebellion, sounds like a native rendering of Priam the Homeric king of Troy.
This episode is also remarkable. A suggestion: You TH-camrs mainly ask for subscription, likes and Patreon support. Maybe you should also build a database of volunteers, who can and want for free to review quickly your 'screenplay' before 'shooting' and can give instructions on pronunciation or spelling. Hopefully I do not invent the wheel, but what if you history maniacs coordinate and build a profitable teaching website, where anyone can upload educational videos for some money and the viewers pay. Maybe this is how Great Courses Plus worjs, I do not know.
Pir (Persian for Ambassador) Marduk is a tempting reading of Piyamaradu. Of course, the language borrowing is inexact.
The image used for Emil Forrer doesn't look like the Emil Forrer that promoted odd ball theories of old world / new world contacts
recently some scholars suggested that Mycenean Greek might be a united kingdom. If it is true that king of Hatti called his counterpart of Ahhiyawa brother. Then I think it is very likely.
I believe Cyprus was a Greek colony and Cyprus was the main source of copper, so the main Bronze Age powers must have all known the Greeks as metal traders.
Ahhiya - wa = Achaea land = Myceneans as we know today. Agamemnon means Memnon of Achaea and the name of the sea derrived from the same root: Achaea/Aegea.
Hittite - Achaean dispute over the ''Yawnaya'' turned out to be the most famous feud of history; still haunting Turkiye and Hellas.
bet it was my gash older brother matthew. takes forever to get him to go with the clay and the baking and heralds but sounds like nothins changed
Wilusa->illius->troy
@@ChunkyChewJu *Ilion) F ιλιον
Hatti, Hettita, Huri All are the names of the Hun people. The route of people emigrating from Troy was first Meotis this Hun area, Pannonia founded Sicambria here then the Franks founded Paris here.The Trojans are called Pannons who are Scythian Huns.
Ahhiyawa was late Akkad or Olympia. The Olympians appointed kings over Akkadia in the MidEast there in the 3rd mill. BC. Why would they do that so far away ? 1) Secrecy 2) Independence in conflict resolution 3) Physical ability
Aleksandu is so similar to Alexander -and wasn't Paris (the Trojan prince who started the Trojan War according to the ILIAD) also known as Alexander?
And Piayama-Radu is similar to Priam.
Paris seems to have been his original name, while Alexander was his Greek one.
@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526 His character was more similar to Achilles (Pyrrhus), but had nothing to do with Priam.
Just speculation but according to greek mythology one or two generations before the trojan war some greek heroes, like Bellerephon and Herakles ,made havok in western Anatolia-it would be around the same time Piyama-Radu lettets.
Maybe Piyama-Radu was the source of the greek legends.
I think "Αιγαίου" is a cognate for the location, but it does not mean that the typonym is related to the Mycenean Greeks. It could be Minoan, or even "pre-Indo-European Farmer" in origin.
But..... there are so many untranslated text from Hattusha that still needs to be translated. Who knows, maybe the identity of the kings of this region is waiting patiently to reveal itself to the world from those ancient clay tablets.
Can we collaborate some time?
Yeah, maybe... send me an email ... address on "About" page. Thanks!
@@HistorywithCy Sure.
For anyone who cares, there’s an old BBC documentary called In search of Troy with Michael wood that covers this in depth. It’s on TH-cam. ✌️
Oh yeah I'd seen parts of it some time back, really good program. Anything Michael Wood covers is great! Thanks for stopping by, appreciate it, stay safe!
Yes I have Michael Woods book. In Search of Troy. Fascinating !!
Piyamaradu has been strongly identified as likely one and the same as Priam, legendary King of Troy from the Illiad.
The Ahhiyawa = Achaeans isn't really a question anymore; this is essentially accepted fact at this point.
The world was more connected back then, more than we even know.
*BROTHERHOOD INTENSIFIES*
- Urhi-Teshub
I don't think there can be any reasonable doubt that Ahhiyawa are the Achaiwoi (Homeric Greek form of Achaioi). The linguistics is too bloody obvious. No one else active in W. Anatolia would be as strong. The raids, the link to Wilusa/Willios also too obvious. Pariyamu and Aleksandush/Priam/Alexander or Paris.
What was the name of the Swiss Scholar? Ferrier? Fourier?
Emil Forrer. Thanks for stopping by, stay safe!
@@HistorywithCy Thank you!
Ofcourse they did. They fought a war over Troy.
They were maybe dynasties and kings of different ethnicities through royal families mixing from diffetrnt nations. But Daunus founder of the argead dynasty was the the son of belus king of egypt, and he was also brother to Aegyptus who was another king of egypt. While Daunus had been a king of Libya. Also most of the greek dieties come from Egypt according to herodotus and diodorus siculus. And there is great reference of alexander the great going to libya for the ammonian ram head of zues as heracles did
I think it’s hard to argue they didn’t have contact with all the costal powers. There is evidence of Mycenaean trading colonies in Cyprus and even Ugarit (could be wrong about Ugarit).
Achaean expansion into Anatolia brought them into conflict with the Hittites in 1400BC.
Mycenaean Atreas (Attarsiya) with allies of Arzawa kingdom , Madyattes (Madduwatta) and Kupanta-Kurunta against Hittite king Tudhaliya and his general Kisnapili.
In region Lycia ,Mycenean and his allies won the decisive battle,general Kisnapili was killed.(hittite sourse the "indictment of Maduata".
Achaean expansion into Anatolia Increased.
"Ahhiyawa Texts" by Gary M. Beckman.
Madduwatta wasn't the ally of Attarsiya then, only when he betrayed Kisnapili, he went with Attarsiya against Alashiya (Cyprus)
piamaradu sounds like a bronze age pancho villa lol
Or a greek hero like Bellerophon.
Achilles, also known as "Pyrrhus".(an agglutination of his original name?)
Considering that the Greek colonization of the eastern Aegean is traditionally put after the Bronze Age collapse, is it possible that the name Ahhiyawa was an ethnonym for Greekish or not even Greek people living in the eastern Aegean that was used by the people living there after the collapse (a mix of Greek and Ahhiyawa) and was then used for all of the Greeks (which was not actually). Homer goes back and forth with Δαναοί and Αχαιοί and mixes bronze and iron age. Also, the same thing happened to the Hittites, they took the name of the assimilated people, right?
Hmmm...that's interesting, thanks for sharing. About the Hittites, yes you're correct in that the Hattians were the indigenous people of the region of Anatolia which the Hittites eventually came to dominate; the land retained the name Hatti and the Hittite ruling class were also called this in foreign correspondence. My understanding is that we call them Hittites because of the language that they spoke (Hittite/Neshite), though it's pretty obvious that they adopted a lot of Hattic culture, even the throne names of several kings - Hattusili, Mursili and Hantili - I believe are actually Hattic names.
Interesting stuff to say the least. Thanks for stopping by, I really appreciate it and your comments...stay safe!
@@HistorywithCy You are welcome. Thank you for your nice videos. Maybe you can do a video on the lost Indoeuropeans of the eastern Mediterranean some time. Everyone talks in black and white about Greeks and Hittites but other groups like Phrygians, Lycians etc are ignored. For example, how Phrygians are found north of Greece before the bronze age collapse but in Anatolia after it. To me it is the same movement that led the Dorians inside the Greek peninsula. They all spoke related language, some more Greekish than other. Also, the whole thing must be related to the movement of the sea peoples. We have seen an avalanche effect originating from the arrival of nomads in the Hungarian plain. What if it pushed Indoeuropean tribes south? Anyway, thanks for taking an interest. Keep up the good work. (Another video idea is the Minoan civilization and the bronze age collapse. The incredible shift that happened on Crete from Palace complexes to people living on the edge of gorges, the Lassithi plateau as a refugium for Minoans hypothesis etc. I mean, come on, people don't move to live in a gorge because of climate change.)
The Mycenaeans (settlers) were in Anatolia before the Bronze Age collapse.
@@AthrihosPithekos no evidence for this.
@@charlesfenwick6554 I mean as settlers. Not that it was their homeland.
Good confirms my feeling that they fought Sargun and the Babylonians
“Hey bro “😀, “I’m not your bro yo!”😠. “🥺”
Sounds reasonable. Is it also possible that Ahhiyawa was the Hittite expression for kingdom or followers of Yahweh (Israel), which was in between Hatti and Egypt, and near Kadesh where Hatti and Egypt had fought a battle around 1275 BC after which Hatti and Egypt negotiated a treaty? A treaty would explain the Hatti ruler's desire for diplomacy and his referring to king of Ahhiyawa as brother because he wanted his help in reaching a diplomatic resolution. While Israel did not have a king at that time, the Hatti ruler may have used the term for whoever was leader of Israel. Not sure who the troublemaker would have been, whether Egyptian or a vassal of Egypt in the area. The name Pyradamu sounds like could be near Eastern. The Israelites and Hittites apparently had some contact as later on one of King David's warriors was Uriah the Hittite.
Yea I believe that the Hittites and Mycenean Greece came to blows after the Greeks sacked Troy. Because Troy and the Hittite Empire had a pact of mutual support.
nice subtle berimbau music xd
Isn't the Biblical Hebrew term for Greeks "Javan" (Yawan), or something like that?
You speak with good paceing for slow thinking people like myself lol
THe similaritiy and the face that they live close by put it in the VERY plausiblle category
Αχαιοί is read as ---> ahe-ee with the tone in the ee
Seems to me...that the only other player..other than the big 5..that also had a border with the Hittites, were the Mycenae...process of elimination leaves them the only ones left!
A remarkable coincidence! AXAIA = ahhiyawa
I think they were literally all brothers from the same Royal house.
what the hittites are trying to say is achaedian or achiles.