When I started getting into old computers I found this channel and I LOVE IT I could listen to him talk about old computers all day. Keep up the good work Phil!
In the shed in an old box I just found an Intel D845 motherboard and p4 1.6GHz cpu with 512mb of DDR dram in it even has the cooler on it.Would likely make for an awesome Win98 retro box..
It's a fun little machine for 98SE amongst other things, it has been extensively covered in Google. It should be pretty cheap. I would like if you made a video about it, maybe comparing it to this build.
Neato. You don't really see many small-form factor computers in the past, so it's interesting to see hardware that does fit in small-form factor cases.
Milan Jovanovic Good point. Though these PCs were plagued with hardware defects which ultimately caused the manufacturer of those machines to become bankrupt. But I digress.
Probably because they were fairly expensive compared to jamming a more budget orientated unit together. I did see plenty of them but nowhere near as common as a black/beige midi-tower though.
Interesting factoid, Nvidia drivers for Win98 stop at the around the 6xxx series... but those do, near universally, only come in AGP flavour (or PCIe) with no PCI only versions. I used this knowledge to retrofit an old Soltek SFF machine and it's actually full on beast mode for Win98.
Actually, i think the unified driver of those cards works on AGP and legacy PCI likewise. I doubt the PCI would be much of a noticeable bottleneck (compared to AGP) on some cards when, after all a 1gHz CPU coupled with a 5500 nvidia, as per this video, is bordering on top heavy (so the PCI bottleneck would be hard to notice). Still a cool video though. Nice to see such combos.
VIA's reign as the leader in Mini-ITX motherboards (a format they devised) ended when Intel began producing M-ITX boards themselves. Their first boards had a Celeron CPU with SIS Mirage graphics, a curious choice, but they still ran rings around the VIA CPUs, and were cheaper. Their later boards had Intel Atoms. I currently use an Intel M-ITX board with an i3 CPU.
But with which OS? As I understand it, Intel dropped W98 support like lightning, so there aren't too many options when it comes to running Win9x in this form-factor.
@@predabot__6778 I've found Windows 98 drivers for the SiS 661FX (which is probably what my Celeron D desktop had). So with the correct chipset, drivers compatibility should be good.
Getting a Shuttle X-PC is a great way to go for itx size windows 98, if not smaller. I got a socket 478 model, and have to say, it works perfect with no compromises (beyond only a single slot agp card will fit, so back to the default cooler for my 9800 pro) as you can have a gfx card and sound card. I had to get mine in pieces (mobo+cpu, cooler+case and a bigger psu as the original I got with the case was a bit under powered, I had the rest of the bits in my current atx 98 pc) as I wanted a specific meaty spec 98 wise, but I see many already complete ones on ebay that would be ideal for win98 with little to no work needed hardware wise. I'd say my only disappointment is that I couldn't put my PCI Voodoo 5 in it as the ram slots get in the way, but thats not to bad as I just put in a SB Live! 5.1 for better sound (though I am going to have to replace that with an audigy 2 zs as someone pointed out they work in 98 :P)
Nice vid. I normally go with a desktop with an ISA slot and an AGP slot to build my 98 boxes so that way I can put faster GPUs in the AGP and Legacy sound cards with OPL synthesis to run DOS titles using the same build. Putting Win98 on an ITX board like you just did is rather impressive and I must admit is pretty cool. Just want to point out the jumper setting for the audio front header is a standard jumper configuration for most motherboards when you don't have an audio front header to plug into it and the easiest way for me to remember to place the jumpers in this situation is to place the two jumpers around the open pin placement on each side respectively and it works every time!
Yea it's definitely not a build I recommend, ISA is the way to go :D But with mini ITX I believe PCI is the only option. The reason the audio jumpers got me confused is because no other motherboard had them configured so that the rear outputs are disabled. Learnt something :D
What comes to the soundcard, how about using external usb-soundcard? Does Win 98 support such devices? In case sound quality of the integrated one doesn't satisfy.
Its worth noting that: the onboard graphics were never meant for gaming also it comes in handy if you bios flash a gpu and it goes wrong, you can boot from the onboard and fix it.
Got given a few old PCs with these itx boards, they all had problems such as ram, PSU or HDD but the mobos+CPU are all fine (1.3ghz CPUs). I am planning on making a 98 glide gaming PC as I have PCI Voodoo 5 (reflashed bios mac version). I had the same problems with the SATA, so just went IDE drive as I had an old 80GB drive. The only real issue I have had is that the Thermaltake Element Q case I went with is flush with the top of the Voodoo 5, meaning no power connector with the case cover on, going to have to mod the power connector when I have some spare time so it connects sidewards
Oh man, I have 2 of these boards in 1U rackmount cases, we used to use them as routers with monowall. I was gonna give them to goodwill, but looks like it's time for some retro gaming!
I'd like to do this, but these older Mini ITX motherboards are't easy to find. Kontron´s MiniITX motherboard 886LCD-M/mITX is like $500 cheapest one lol...
Yes, but this way of using SATA will be slower, because the access will be emulated transparently by BIOS (using System Management Mode code, aka ring -2. It is also used to emulate PS/2 mouse and keyboard when using USB mouse and keyboard, and few other things, like thermal protection and management, and text mode emulation on integrated GPU for example, and to implement APM, SMP and ACPI). It is possible to load proper drivers for Windows, and have access to all IDE controllers and SATA, but booting will be a bit problematic. You might need to have OS on an IDE drive, or do some early boot weird things. On Linux these things can be done a bit easier (because of full support for SATA and IDE controllers), but booting again can be a bit awkward.
I don't know how I haven't seen this yet, I've got a VIA board sitting here that was used for a router. No Win98 drivers for the video card in that one, but it has a PCI slot! No idea why I didn't think of using a PCI video card. Thanks!
When i saw this was already wondering about the CPU, just this week i decided to create a Win98 build myself, which uses a VIA C3 CPU based Mainboard, with integrated Savage 4. I am currently contemplating to use a 3Dfx Voodoo 2 i have laying around and never tested with it, either with an extra PCI Graphics Card or the integrated one, the board has 4 PCI slots, 1 combined ISA/PCI and a single separate ISA slot.
Cirrus Logic,Via and SiS were the big 3 back in the day, you shouldnt hate either, its because of these chipsets you experienced windows98, via are actually pretty good, especially on skt 754, nForce chipsets were absolutely full of problems.
Need more performance and full range of winNT win2K and Xp in mini atx I need to browse your videos and find what you've built already that's what I'm looking to build. I'd love to find a Matrox Millenium Dualhead Max and build around it. Was a big part of my Pentium days.
XP is easy, just get any recent Mini ITX stuff with an i3 or i5 and you're set. Windows 98 is heaps trickier, only the old stuff is compatible. Same goes for DOS.
For some reason I recall in another video where you said the FX 5500 PCI card still required AGP support to work (properly)? Perhaps a separate card would have been a better option?
A good alternative to an add-in GPU for these older via cpu based systems would be to get a good sound card with hardware acceleration. Long time ago I had a C3 that received a substantial performance boost from doing that. Currently I have a Via Eden (esther core) which I run in thinclient case (so I'm stuck with the onboard HD audio) and just running an mp3 through VLC utilizes 30% cpu on its own. Multitasking with music playing is almost out of the question.
Can you know why my vintage notebook with 512MB Of RAM don’t install Windows 98 SE? ALWAYS it lock in the end of installation when Windows search computer’s peripheral items.
Great video as always Phil! I have a suggestion: can you benchmark at 1280*1024 resolution? I ask because many classic format LCD's - 17&19 inches - have that resolution as their native resolution and it would be great to see what performance someone would get at that particular resolution!
Hi, nice video as always. Here are some tips fir the problems you encountered; to solve the win98 not rebooting issue, you need to disable the IOAPIC function in bios. And to solve the SATA controller issue you need to put the controller in RAID mode in bios, it may sound strange, but booting in this mode with a single sata hdd puts the controller in some kind of different IDE compatibility mode and it works in dos and win98 install, then install the VIA RAID drivers, and you have optimum performance in windows
mITX was originally a ViA thing that they were aiming at embedded and home entertainment systems. The original cases you'd find tended to be much more industrial looking. And that board is from the 00's not the 90's.
Mini-ITX is a 17 × 17 cm (6.7 × 6.7 in) motherboard, developed by VIA Technologies in 2001. 90's, lol. And CN700 chipset is around 2005. It is DDR2! Are you a 12 years old, to feel no difference between 90's and mid-2000's? 90's are Pentiums and 486's with SIMM's.
chill out, man, people aren't always 100% steeped in the culture... maybe this is this guy's first phil video... "windows 98" would obviously make someone think a late 90s machine... of course, 1GHz is a telltale sign it's early 2000s to people who know, but, like. why you gotta be insulting? jeez.
It was a VIA thing and they stunk..The socket 370's cpus were horrible for anything but numbers crunching and basic non graphical stuff like running an atm. I have a ton of via cpus that are pretty much useless because getting a board that would work with them for socket 370 was almost impossible and had no advantage.the socket 7 cpus from via were ok but lacked on die cache so games stunk on them
VIA Sata controllers work best with Sata 1 drives. If your drive has a way to force Sata 1 you'll have better luck. Some VIA controllers won't work at all with anything newer.
I never liked the VIA chipset mobos. I made sure to purchase boards without ANY VIA chips. All that being said, it is a fun build, was there any use being planned for this system or just to see if you can?
Did you have any problems with the integrated graphics just not wanting to go over 320x200 with games? Duke 3D and Quake turn into a slideshow when I set the resolution at 640x480 and higher. It's strange since the integrated graphics should be able to do it. Any ideas?
Hi. Do somebody have a copy of the BIOS of this motherboard?. Mine came in a special audio device and the BIOS is with an unknown password. No matter if I clear the CMOS with the jumper or remove the CR2032 battery, it keeps asking me for the setup administrator password. I'm guessing that this motherboard came with a special factory custom BIOS with a permanent password. I will appreciate any help. Thanks!!!.
Nice ITX Win 9x build. I build a similar rig with the Intel D201GLY2, which is, in contrast to the information on intel product page, fully Win 9x compatible. Would be interesting to see this or the very similar D201GLY somewhere in the future on your testbench. Btw: No power consumption measurement?
Made a quick bench in 3dMark 2000 with the D201GLY2 with 512MB Ram, CT4760 and Windows ME: 2978 Points. Not bad, especially in comparision to the score of the cheap Win98 PC build. Power consumption is 37W in idle and 46W under 3dmark.
i do have an MSI MS-6156VA Board with a via chipset and this one always locks up when i try to use my 80 Gigabyte hard drive with it so with this PC i am stuck at my 4 GB wdc24300 hard drive
Ive been looking for a C7 board for a while, though they seem to be quite expensive for what they are. Hopefully I'll be able to find a Biostar board with a C7 and a PCI-E slot for a good price someday :)
To be honest, I have never seen a VIA C7 motherboard with PCIe, and even the newer VIA motherboards only have PCIe x1 or x4 for a graphics card. What you could do is just adapt the PCI slot to PCIe with a converter like this one by Startech: www.amazon.com/dp/B0037ECAM2/ref=twister_B00OCBIXD4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1 or this one: www.ebay.com/itm/180735257737 which can also be found on aliexpress
Wow, I had never seen that before. Thanks for enlightening me! What would be really cool is if you could get VIA to actually give you just the BGA chip of the C6450 because the VIA C7 is supposed to be pin compatible with all of their later chips. It probably wouldn't work due to BIOS limitations, but that board looks really great. EDIT: Hey, if you live in the USA, there's one on eBay for only $20 with free shipping: www.ebay.com/itm/BIOSTAR-MOTHERBOARD-MODEL-VIOTECH-3200-VERSION-6-0-/271817074590?_trksid=p2385738.m2548.l4275
Yep, they always fail for me, heaps of unreliable junk. Same as corsair, garbage. I can only rely on kingston. So I guess you don't need an mca card for anything? If not, that's cool, I don't have anything mca to use it in either. Oh, a slot load dvd would really set that off as pure "to its time". :)
Does Metal API work on your Unichrome IGP? It's a rebranded S3 Savage. What about sound in DOS games? I've got VIA EPIA ML board. Metal API is definitely broken and no midi in DOS.
Got midi working in DOS today. I'm not 100% sure but it looks like directx9 installation has Roland Sound Canvas software synth in it. Now I can choose Sound Canvas with 330h base address in game setup. Tried it with Doom games. Sounds very nice. Used WDM driver version 4.60c. VT1616 codec on my motherboard.
No gameport though for joysticks :o Currently the only thing I have working with USB on my Win98 rig is a PS4 controller! It works with just a driver it finds on the Win98 disk, who would of thunk?
I tried my Saitek AV8R but it doesn't want to work and I'm having problems getting the 32bit drivers for it to install. I also have a X52 I haven't tried but even then I still have the disk that I'm sure has 9x drivers on it.
PhilsComputerLab Good to know. I think I had a Logitech years ago. Would you say the older ones are more compatible? The AV8R does have two throttles, wonder if that is a problem.
Please respond to this if you can. I have been a PC gamer for many years, long story short, I haven’t been playing in several years but badly miss the fun games of the late 90s early 2ks like Dungeon Keeper 2, Red Alert 1,2 Yuris etc, Age of Empires and so on. Games today are fun, but nothing fills my game tummy like the old school RTS games. (mission sir? , disguise ready!) So my question to you is this, are you aware of any super small builds, tiny builds, the size of a raspberry pi, Roku, Apple TV etc? I would think in 2020 there would be a way to build a machine like that. A true turnkey ready win98/XP machine with modern ports like HDMI, USB for a portable CD Rom, Bluetooth for wireless keyboard n mouse (if win98 can run them, iirc winxp could. I used to build PCs 20 years ago, but I’ve long since fallen out of the scene and what is able to be done with modern gear. I’m beginning to relearn my tech base, and investigating the possibilities for two reasons. One being the desire to play the older games, and second to possibly work out a production capable model to sell online as I know there are scores of us out there that would love to have a reliable/stable small win98 pc with a few modern abilities like gaming on a big screen. If one could be produced as small as say a Roku, I know they would be popular. I may be way off, but I’d think with today’s tech and the minuscule resources required to run windows 98 and its games compared to today’s crazy graphic intensive games it could be possible? Anyway, thanks for the cool video!
I don't work with Pi and other devices, but with proper PCs. Look at some of the Thin Client videos I made, there are some that are really small, but they might not have enough performance for your games. You can get modern Mini PCs however, like Intel NUC or models from other brands!
Hi where u buy all that parts? I wont Build win 98 and win xp dual boot pc or just but good laptop for this 2 systems, with good performance with all games.
He used a ViA chip, they were the forerunner to the passive cooled/low thermal output Atom stuff you see these days (basically). So the cooler on the board came with it and was installed at the factory rather than Phil doing anything to it. Downside is they, much like the Atom's, tend to be a bit gutless and run in to performance brick walls at the strangest of times.
I am wondering how the overall gaming experience will be, if a V2 card or a V3-Pci card is installed into this machine. Though a have a feeling that the system might be too fast for a V2 to functioning propperly.
Hey Phil. What do you end up doing with all of your builds once they are complete? I like to imagine you have some kind of awesome retro LAN room. LoL. RUNE LAN parties.
I'm considering building this, but I don't have any ram under 1gb. I'm hoping I can slot it in there and it'll work so I don't have to buy another stick for for something I'm going to be messing with occasionally.
I always think the onboard video of VIA/S3G is a joke...Even on the Chrome 9 HC of DX9-era, it still struggles to run games. Therefore, if you choose a VIA-based motherboard for some gaming, dedicated graphics card is a must.
I don't know if your still using this PC but when you said that you have the option of ether adding a GPU or a soundcard and there is only one choice. Well there is another option and I was thinking about this for my Old PC (the one I mentioned before about the 10 year old PC) well since it's a Micro ATX I don't have may slots to use and since I'm using a double slot GPU and only 1 slot left.(small story) Well the onboard LAN is 10/100 and the onboard sound isn't that good (I always use a sound card) DOOM 2016 pops and crackles so I would like to get a sound card but also a Gigabit Ethernet. If I go with a Gigabit card I would have to look into getting a USB sound device. Creative has some options that look compelling and if I go with one I would be able to get Gigabit Ethernet. Have you ever tried any of these USB options and if you have do you have a video on one? Sorry about the long winded comment, I took the day off from work and I'm watching a lot of your videos today. :)
Yes, USB sound cards are great options, I am not sure about Windows 98 though. That could be worth checking out of course. They won't work under DOS of course, but that is to be expected.
I forgot how bad Windows 98 was, until recently I installed it on a perfectly fine Pentium 3 pc to play some old games (NFS Porsche, Midtown Madness etc.). I got all kinds of errors and missing files that required the install cd of Windows 98 so, i decided to wipe the hdd and install Xp. I'll never install Windows 98 again. :D
John Capidecallu I had no problems getting Windows 98SE installed. I have tried on a virtual machine (on my main i5 PC and even on my Android smartphone) and a Pentium III system. The only error I ever got was when I tried to install the standard USB driver. I have windows xp and 98SE on that 40GB (15GB for Windows 98, 25GB for Windows XP) hard drive it runs all fine. And I wasn't even born when Windows 98 was released.
Had a GF FX5500 back in the days - worst graphics card I've ever bought. May I suggest checking out an ATI X600/X700? Would make a good testing video too :)
Funfact: The 5500 is even worse than the 5200! The GPU is slightly lower clocked and the VRAM is half as fast. (Although there are two versions of the 5200, the slower one has the same throughput as the 5500)
Theoretically yes, it depends on exactly how new the board is. One of the older, near original, generations of Atom paired with the i915 chipset and yeah, you should be golden.
I have Atom 230 on SiS, maybe it can. Usual i945 and up has no drivers. First Atoms itself doesnt require drivers, because they have nothing inside, just CPU.
lets go heck of a lot older. try a AMD K6 CPU its mind whopping speed of 233MHz have to use Windows 95 that is a pain in the ASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS to install
When I started getting into old computers I found this channel and I LOVE IT I could listen to him talk about old computers all day.
Keep up the good work Phil!
Thank you! Made my day :D
In the shed in an old box I just found an Intel D845 motherboard and p4 1.6GHz cpu with 512mb of DDR dram in it even has the cooler on it.Would likely make for an awesome Win98 retro box..
Thank you for having the drivers on your website. I was actually able to find one of these boards on ebay. It makes a nice little retro rig.
Discontinued HP thin clients are also usable for this purpose. They are very cheap.
they usually dont have agp/pci-e port
HP T5720 says hi! Fully 98SE compatible.
Viper87 The integrated graphics are usually as powerful as the AGP cards of the day.
Worth getting? What's your take in it?
It's a fun little machine for 98SE amongst other things, it has been extensively covered in Google. It should be pretty cheap. I would like if you made a video about it, maybe comparing it to this build.
Neato. You don't really see many small-form factor computers in the past, so it's interesting to see hardware that does fit in small-form factor cases.
Milan Jovanovic Good point. Though these PCs were plagued with hardware defects which ultimately caused the manufacturer of those machines to become bankrupt. But I digress.
Who doesn't remember Shuttle, they made SFF gaming platforms in the Athlon XP/Pentium 4 era.
Actually Shuttle released a whole range of fairly popular SFF computers in the early 00's during the AMD Athlon XP/P4's heyday.
Forgot about them, but then again I don't really recall many Shuttle PCs in the past, at least where I lived.
Probably because they were fairly expensive compared to jamming a more budget orientated unit together. I did see plenty of them but nowhere near as common as a black/beige midi-tower though.
Interesting factoid, Nvidia drivers for Win98 stop at the around the 6xxx series... but those do, near universally, only come in AGP flavour (or PCIe) with no PCI only versions. I used this knowledge to retrofit an old Soltek SFF machine and it's actually full on beast mode for Win98.
There is the PCI 6200, but I haven't tried it yet to see what it can do.
I suspect you'll hit a limit in how fast the PCI bus can go at some point... on the other hand and interesting journey :)
Yes very likely. It's all about the journey, absolutely :D
I have a 6200 PCI and it works quite well, even supports windows 7, Nice solution for MB with no AGP or PCI-E slot. ( I'm talking to you, HP!)
Actually, i think the unified driver of those cards works on AGP and legacy PCI likewise. I doubt the PCI would be much of a noticeable bottleneck (compared to AGP) on some cards when, after all a 1gHz CPU coupled with a 5500 nvidia, as per this video, is bordering on top heavy (so the PCI bottleneck would be hard to notice). Still a cool video though. Nice to see such combos.
VIA's reign as the leader in Mini-ITX motherboards (a format they devised) ended when Intel began producing M-ITX boards themselves. Their first boards had a Celeron CPU with SIS Mirage graphics, a curious choice, but they still ran rings around the VIA CPUs, and were cheaper. Their later boards had Intel Atoms. I currently use an Intel M-ITX board with an i3 CPU.
But with which OS? As I understand it, Intel dropped W98 support like lightning, so there aren't too many options when it comes to running Win9x in this form-factor.
@@predabot__6778 I've found Windows 98 drivers for the SiS 661FX (which is probably what my Celeron D desktop had). So with the correct chipset, drivers compatibility should be good.
@@dabombinablemi6188 Cool! Would be interesting to see an over-view and testing of different Intel mITX's then. :)
Just found your channel and love it, despite not knowing what most of these components are.
My god this things are still available. Lol the old generation, so cute. The specks are blowing my mind😂
Getting a Shuttle X-PC is a great way to go for itx size windows 98, if not smaller. I got a socket 478 model, and have to say, it works perfect with no compromises (beyond only a single slot agp card will fit, so back to the default cooler for my 9800 pro) as you can have a gfx card and sound card. I had to get mine in pieces (mobo+cpu, cooler+case and a bigger psu as the original I got with the case was a bit under powered, I had the rest of the bits in my current atx 98 pc) as I wanted a specific meaty spec 98 wise, but I see many already complete ones on ebay that would be ideal for win98 with little to no work needed hardware wise.
I'd say my only disappointment is that I couldn't put my PCI Voodoo 5 in it as the ram slots get in the way, but thats not to bad as I just put in a SB Live! 5.1 for better sound (though I am going to have to replace that with an audigy 2 zs as someone pointed out they work in 98 :P)
I remember the Shuttle computers with the sleek aluminum body. Had 2 back in the day, early 2000’s with dial up - LOL
Nice vid. I normally go with a desktop with an ISA slot and an AGP slot to build my 98 boxes so that way I can put faster GPUs in the AGP and Legacy sound cards with OPL synthesis to run DOS titles using the same build. Putting Win98 on an ITX board like you just did is rather impressive and I must admit is pretty cool. Just want to point out the jumper setting for the audio front header is a standard jumper configuration for most motherboards when you don't have an audio front header to plug into it and the easiest way for me to remember to place the jumpers in this situation is to place the two jumpers around the open pin placement on each side respectively and it works every time!
Yea it's definitely not a build I recommend, ISA is the way to go :D But with mini ITX I believe PCI is the only option. The reason the audio jumpers got me confused is because no other motherboard had them configured so that the rear outputs are disabled. Learnt something :D
this video is such a treat, thank you for this
My wishes have been heard! Thank you Phil!!
What comes to the soundcard, how about using external usb-soundcard? Does Win 98 support such devices? In case sound quality of the integrated one doesn't satisfy.
This little build can actually handle windows 7!
Its worth noting that: the onboard graphics were never meant for gaming also it comes in handy if you bios flash a gpu and it goes wrong, you can boot from the onboard and fix it.
Got given a few old PCs with these itx boards, they all had problems such as ram, PSU or HDD but the mobos+CPU are all fine (1.3ghz CPUs). I am planning on making a 98 glide gaming PC as I have PCI Voodoo 5 (reflashed bios mac version). I had the same problems with the SATA, so just went IDE drive as I had an old 80GB drive. The only real issue I have had is that the Thermaltake Element Q case I went with is flush with the top of the Voodoo 5, meaning no power connector with the case cover on, going to have to mod the power connector when I have some spare time so it connects sidewards
Oh man, I have 2 of these boards in 1U rackmount cases, we used to use them as routers with monowall. I was gonna give them to goodwill, but looks like it's time for some retro gaming!
Turning your vids to 2x video speed is unusually entertaining to me and I have no clue why.
12:25 Where'd you get that case? I like how small it is and how it supports full 5.25.
It's from Aywun. Got it a few years ago, not sure if they still make it.
I'd like to do this, but these older Mini ITX motherboards are't easy to find.
Kontron´s MiniITX motherboard 886LCD-M/mITX is like $500 cheapest one lol...
Search up epia mini-itx boards from via and you'll find a crap ton even from brands from msi and asus.
I've bought that mainboard some time ago (a lucky find on eBay für 20 €) but it's hard to get a descent ITX case for cheap.
This hardware must run ultra fast with such a light OS!!!
disabling the secondary ide controller in windows let you use the sata drive (if I remember correctly)
Yes, but this way of using SATA will be slower, because the access will be emulated transparently by BIOS (using System Management Mode code, aka ring -2. It is also used to emulate PS/2 mouse and keyboard when using USB mouse and keyboard, and few other things, like thermal protection and management, and text mode emulation on integrated GPU for example, and to implement APM, SMP and ACPI). It is possible to load proper drivers for Windows, and have access to all IDE controllers and SATA, but booting will be a bit problematic. You might need to have OS on an IDE drive, or do some early boot weird things. On Linux these things can be done a bit easier (because of full support for SATA and IDE controllers), but booting again can be a bit awkward.
Great Video Phil.
Thanks!
I don't know how I haven't seen this yet, I've got a VIA board sitting here that was used for a router. No Win98 drivers for the video card in that one, but it has a PCI slot! No idea why I didn't think of using a PCI video card. Thanks!
I love the videos, keep it up!
Best small form factor retro gamer is OUYA
When i saw this was already wondering about the CPU, just this week i decided to create a Win98 build myself, which uses a VIA C3 CPU based Mainboard, with integrated Savage 4. I am currently contemplating to use a 3Dfx Voodoo 2 i have laying around and never tested with it, either with an extra PCI Graphics Card or the integrated one, the board has 4 PCI slots, 1 combined ISA/PCI and a single separate ISA slot.
Nice! A VIA C7. VIA needs more love :)
Joe Manfred I hate them XD
Joe Manfred I use Via chipset boards in many projects.
You can see some nice test of VIA C3 vs C7 here - kva.pl/index.php?link=artykul&id_a=10 :)
Cirrus Logic,Via and SiS were the big 3 back in the day, you shouldnt hate either, its because of these chipsets you experienced windows98, via are actually pretty good, especially on skt 754, nForce chipsets were absolutely full of problems.
Need more performance and full range of winNT win2K and Xp in mini atx
I need to browse your videos and find what you've built already that's what I'm looking to build. I'd love to find a Matrox Millenium Dualhead Max and build around it. Was a big part of my Pentium days.
This is awesome thanks !
I don't know why I waited so long to hit that little red button...
Try a VIA Eden X2 (or any early dual core) for a Windows XP retro build.
Just came back to mind that i have a allmost "new" EPIA mini itx board running a similar CPU... need to do something with that :o
I would certainly use dual boot with dos and windows 2000....
Is that a kingspec / ebay ssd I see at 5:35? if so, is it any good and is it still working?
Can a Matrox M3D put into the PCI slot and run Win98 from the onboard graphics ? :D
Great video Phil would love to see the same build for Windows XP and one good enough to run Crysis maybe an idea for a future video?
XP is easy, just get any recent Mini ITX stuff with an i3 or i5 and you're set. Windows 98 is heaps trickier, only the old stuff is compatible. Same goes for DOS.
For some reason I recall in another video where you said the FX 5500 PCI card still required AGP support to work (properly)? Perhaps a separate card would have been a better option?
Yea they don't work on all motherboards it seems...
A good alternative to an add-in GPU for these older via cpu based systems would be to get a good sound card with hardware acceleration. Long time ago I had a C3 that received a substantial performance boost from doing that. Currently I have a Via Eden (esther core) which I run in thinclient case (so I'm stuck with the onboard HD audio) and just running an mp3 through VLC utilizes 30% cpu on its own. Multitasking with music playing is almost out of the question.
Can you know why my vintage notebook with 512MB Of RAM don’t install Windows 98 SE?
ALWAYS it lock in the end of installation when Windows search computer’s peripheral items.
love it mate keep up the good work
Thank you.
Great video as always Phil! I have a suggestion: can you benchmark at 1280*1024 resolution? I ask because many classic format LCD's - 17&19 inches - have that resolution as their native resolution and it would be great to see what performance someone would get at that particular resolution!
This is awesome. I really wanna make this now!
Hi, nice video as always. Here are some tips fir the problems you encountered; to solve the win98 not rebooting issue, you need to disable the IOAPIC function in bios. And to solve the SATA controller issue you need to put the controller in RAID mode in bios, it may sound strange, but booting in this mode with a single sata hdd puts the controller in some kind of different IDE compatibility mode and it works in dos and win98 install, then install the VIA RAID drivers, and you have optimum performance in windows
Do You know another microatx acutal motherboard that support win98se ok Amazon?
2:03 Always an issue sometimes?
What is better Nvidia Graphics card, the AGP 5500 or AGP 6200 for a olders PCs from lately 90s and earlies 2000s?
I had no idea Mini ITX cases existed in the 90s, I thought they came into the scene early 2010s.
mITX was originally a ViA thing that they were aiming at embedded and home entertainment systems. The original cases you'd find tended to be much more industrial looking. And that board is from the 00's not the 90's.
Mini-ITX is a 17 × 17 cm (6.7 × 6.7 in) motherboard, developed by VIA Technologies in 2001.
90's, lol.
And CN700 chipset is around 2005. It is DDR2! Are you a 12 years old, to feel no difference between 90's and mid-2000's? 90's are Pentiums and 486's with SIMM's.
chill out, man, people aren't always 100% steeped in the culture... maybe this is this guy's first phil video... "windows 98" would obviously make someone think a late 90s machine...
of course, 1GHz is a telltale sign it's early 2000s to people who know, but, like. why you gotta be insulting? jeez.
Mini ITX back in the days wasn't that known because people has been filled in with bigger is better crap.
It was a VIA thing and they stunk..The socket 370's cpus were horrible for anything but numbers crunching and basic non graphical stuff like running an atm. I have a ton of via cpus that are pretty much useless because getting a board that would work with them for socket 370 was almost impossible and had no advantage.the socket 7 cpus from via were ok but lacked on die cache so games stunk on them
Awesome video! Curious though - why not a pentium 4?
Phil, what do you think about making a Windows Server 2003 gaming video?
I doubt it.
Windows 2003 uses the same code base as Windows XP so there is no real point.
Sacrilege
Generic Green Squid How about NT 4.0? (It sucks as a gaming platform.)
Coleção Nintendo ué. você por aqui?
VIA Sata controllers work best with Sata 1 drives. If your drive has a way to force Sata 1 you'll have better luck. Some VIA controllers won't work at all with anything newer.
Yes that mirrors my experiences. HDDs often have this jumper, I've used it a few times :)
40 degrees? where are you?
I had no idea they had ITX back then
First!!! Also, amazing setup man!! Been waiting for a video with Mini ITX specs since ever! Awesome work, Phil!!
They gave me one of these cards completely sealed and only brings a normal Pci. What graphics card can I buy for this motherboard?
May be worth checking out some Flex ATX form factor boards, got a Skt 370 one a while back for 2.50 new on ebay, still need to do a build with it.
MSI MEGA Barebone series is great for this
i think an intel atom ITX board with something like a intel n455 or n270 would be better for that...had w2k on it as my first pc, was usable.
True, but this one does DOS and Windows. Though for DOS you'd have to ditch the GeForce and use a DOS compatible sound card.
and thats where the pci slot is very handy. what do you think about an acer mini PC with a athlon 64 x2 as a windows 98/dos retro machine?
I have a c7 as well and win98 kept locking up after 30mins of use and yes i have fan on my heatsink
I never liked the VIA chipset mobos. I made sure to purchase boards without ANY VIA chips.
All that being said, it is a fun build, was there any use being planned for this system or just to see if you can?
Did you have any problems with the integrated graphics just not wanting to go over 320x200 with games? Duke 3D and Quake turn into a slideshow when I set the resolution at 640x480 and higher. It's strange since the integrated graphics should be able to do it. Any ideas?
Hi. Do somebody have a copy of the BIOS of this motherboard?. Mine came in a special audio device and the BIOS is with an unknown password. No matter if I clear the CMOS with the jumper or remove the CR2032 battery, it keeps asking me for the setup administrator password. I'm guessing that this motherboard came with a special factory custom BIOS with a permanent password. I will appreciate any help. Thanks!!!.
Did you ever crack this problem? I'd hate to run into it myself, since I'm interested in this board too.
What case did you use?
Curious about this as well
dude that is a cool pc wish i could do stuff like this very cool
Nice ITX Win 9x build. I build a similar rig with the Intel D201GLY2, which is, in contrast to the information on intel product page, fully Win 9x compatible. Would be interesting to see this or the very similar D201GLY somewhere in the future on your testbench.
Btw: No power consumption measurement?
I didn't have the power reader back when I produced this video :)
Made a quick bench in 3dMark 2000 with the D201GLY2 with 512MB Ram, CT4760 and Windows ME: 2978 Points. Not bad, especially in comparision to the score of the cheap Win98 PC build.
Power consumption is 37W in idle and 46W under 3dmark.
i do have an MSI MS-6156VA Board with a via chipset and this one always locks up when i try to use my 80 Gigabyte hard drive with it so with this PC i am stuck at my 4 GB wdc24300 hard drive
I have fond memories of W98 gaming. You didn't mention the case name though. I'm curious about that. Reminds me of the SG series from Silverstone.
Skott62 It's from Aywun. Very cheap, got it years ago. Not sure if it's still around.
can the Amd Geode (t5720) beat the via c7? they have the same power?
I believe so! It's basically an Athlon XP, so clock for clock, it's very powerful.
Ive been looking for a C7 board for a while, though they seem to be quite expensive for what they are.
Hopefully I'll be able to find a Biostar board with a C7 and a PCI-E slot for a good price someday :)
They do pop up from time to time. I had them for a while and actually produced a while ago.
To be honest, I have never seen a VIA C7 motherboard with PCIe, and even the newer VIA motherboards only have PCIe x1 or x4 for a graphics card. What you could do is just adapt the PCI slot to PCIe with a converter like this one by Startech:
www.amazon.com/dp/B0037ECAM2/ref=twister_B00OCBIXD4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
or this one:
www.ebay.com/itm/180735257737
which can also be found on aliexpress
The board I'm talking about is from Biostar and the model is VioTech 3200
Wow, I had never seen that before. Thanks for enlightening me! What would be really cool is if you could get VIA to actually give you just the BGA chip of the C6450 because the VIA C7 is supposed to be pin compatible with all of their later chips. It probably wouldn't work due to BIOS limitations, but that board looks really great.
EDIT: Hey, if you live in the USA, there's one on eBay for only $20 with free shipping: www.ebay.com/itm/BIOSTAR-MOTHERBOARD-MODEL-VIOTECH-3200-VERSION-6-0-/271817074590?_trksid=p2385738.m2548.l4275
Is it usual to be 40 deg for this time of year in Australia?
It was produced a while ago.
PhilsComputerLab Ok, that makes sense. Btw, keep up the great work!
That has to be the first stick of micron ram that works that I've ever seen. :p
Anyway, do you have a want for a mca scsi card?
Micron / Crucial? For real? They are my favourite sticks and I never have issues with them.
Yep, they always fail for me, heaps of unreliable junk. Same as corsair, garbage. I can only rely on kingston. So I guess you don't need an mca card for anything? If not, that's cool, I don't have anything mca to use it in either. Oh, a slot load dvd would really set that off as pure "to its time". :)
Does Metal API work on your Unichrome IGP? It's a rebranded S3 Savage. What about sound in DOS games?
I've got VIA EPIA ML board. Metal API is definitely broken and no midi in DOS.
I highly doubt it, they managed to break it even on the Savage 2000. DOS games worked great, but no sound, so I didn't showcase it.
Got midi working in DOS today. I'm not 100% sure but it looks like directx9 installation has Roland Sound Canvas software synth in it. Now I can choose Sound Canvas with 330h base address in game setup. Tried it with Doom games. Sounds very nice. Used WDM driver version 4.60c. VT1616 codec on my motherboard.
Nice. I didn't look into DOS compatibility with the integrated sound card, it might be the same chip though.
Integrated sound in DOS may be a good subject for a future video. Realtek chips worked fine for me with Win95 VXD driver.
No gameport though for joysticks :o Currently the only thing I have working with USB on my Win98 rig is a PS4 controller! It works with just a driver it finds on the Win98 disk, who would of thunk?
Joysticks for Windows 98 use USB. Just plug it in and off you go.
I tried my Saitek AV8R but it doesn't want to work and I'm having problems getting the 32bit drivers for it to install. I also have a X52 I haven't tried but even then I still have the disk that I'm sure has 9x drivers on it.
I've got sticks, some Logitech and a Thrustmaster T.16000. Windows picks them up, and installs the drivers automatically.
PhilsComputerLab Good to know. I think I had a Logitech years ago. Would you say the older ones are more compatible? The AV8R does have two throttles, wonder if that is a problem.
Not sure. The T.16000 has a hat, throttle, twist stick and whole lot of buttons.
can you do another interactive build where we can vote the parts?
Please respond to this if you can. I have been a PC gamer for many years, long story short, I haven’t been playing in several years but badly miss the fun games of the late 90s early 2ks like Dungeon Keeper 2, Red Alert 1,2 Yuris etc, Age of Empires and so on. Games today are fun, but nothing fills my game tummy like the old school RTS games. (mission sir? , disguise ready!) So my question to you is this, are you aware of any super small builds, tiny builds, the size of a raspberry pi, Roku, Apple TV etc? I would think in 2020 there would be a way to build a machine like that. A true turnkey ready win98/XP machine with modern ports like HDMI, USB for a portable CD Rom, Bluetooth for wireless keyboard n mouse (if win98 can run them, iirc winxp could. I used to build PCs 20 years ago, but I’ve long since fallen out of the scene and what is able to be done with modern gear. I’m beginning to relearn my tech base, and investigating the possibilities for two reasons. One being the desire to play the older games, and second to possibly work out a production capable model to sell online as I know there are scores of us out there that would love to have a reliable/stable small win98 pc with a few modern abilities like gaming on a big screen. If one could be produced as small as say a Roku, I know they would be popular. I may be way off, but I’d think with today’s tech and the minuscule resources required to run windows 98 and its games compared to today’s crazy graphic intensive games it could be possible? Anyway, thanks for the cool video!
I don't work with Pi and other devices, but with proper PCs. Look at some of the Thin Client videos I made, there are some that are really small, but they might not have enough performance for your games. You can get modern Mini PCs however, like Intel NUC or models from other brands!
Hi where u buy all that parts? I wont Build win 98 and win xp dual boot pc or just but good laptop for this 2 systems, with good performance with all games.
"date is already set" date is from two years ago...
you have some explaining to do Phil
Obviously time travel.
Do you have a link for the particular cooler you used?
??? What cooler?
He used a ViA chip, they were the forerunner to the passive cooled/low thermal output Atom stuff you see these days (basically). So the cooler on the board came with it and was installed at the factory rather than Phil doing anything to it. Downside is they, much like the Atom's, tend to be a bit gutless and run in to performance brick walls at the strangest of times.
Sorry, i posted to the wrong video, already fixed. ps:thank you for the great content you produce!
Recently, I've thought about building something like this.
I had almost the same machine in 02 just with a Asus motherboard and 512 MB ram and I went with a Asus MX 440 64 MB ddr
I didn't Windows 98 support widescreen.
I am wondering how the overall gaming experience will be, if a V2 card or a V3-Pci card is installed into this machine. Though a have a feeling that the system might be too fast for a V2 to functioning propperly.
Not sure if the V2 fits, but a V3 should and should do fine in that machine.
Overclocking fun with the VIA C7???? Next video.
Hey Phil. What do you end up doing with all of your builds once they are complete? I like to imagine you have some kind of awesome retro LAN room. LoL. RUNE LAN parties.
He likely uses them as most of his builds were obsolete years before he ever assembled them in the first place lol.
nice looking mobo
google "Windows 98 Shutdown fix", incase somebody needs it without the service pack
A D201GLY2 board would be much more agreeable, I think.
What is the max memory this board supports?
R Backus Hmm not sure, but more than 512 I believe.
I'm considering building this, but I don't have any ram under 1gb. I'm hoping I can slot it in there and it'll work so I don't have to buy another stick for for something I'm going to be messing with occasionally.
I always think the onboard video of VIA/S3G is a joke...Even on the Chrome 9 HC of DX9-era, it still struggles to run games. Therefore, if you choose a VIA-based motherboard for some gaming, dedicated graphics card is a must.
I don't know if your still using this PC but when you said that you have the option of ether adding a GPU or a soundcard and there is only one choice. Well there is another option and I was thinking about this for my Old PC (the one I mentioned before about the 10 year old PC) well since it's a Micro ATX I don't have may slots to use and since I'm using a double slot GPU and only 1 slot left.(small story) Well the onboard LAN is 10/100 and the onboard sound isn't that good (I always use a sound card) DOOM 2016 pops and crackles so I would like to get a sound card but also a Gigabit Ethernet. If I go with a Gigabit card I would have to look into getting a USB sound device. Creative has some options that look compelling and if I go with one I would be able to get Gigabit Ethernet. Have you ever tried any of these USB options and if you have do you have a video on one? Sorry about the long winded comment, I took the day off from work and I'm watching a lot of your videos today. :)
Yes, USB sound cards are great options, I am not sure about Windows 98 though. That could be worth checking out of course. They won't work under DOS of course, but that is to be expected.
Is there any spiritual successor to the MS-7199. I can't find any on the net.
I'm not sure!
What's the purpose of using Windows 98 as your OS?
pnp072000 He's doing retro stuff. Windows 98 fits the era.
I forgot how bad Windows 98 was, until recently I installed it on a perfectly fine Pentium 3 pc to play some old games (NFS Porsche, Midtown Madness etc.). I got all kinds of errors and missing files that required the install cd of Windows 98 so, i decided to wipe the hdd and install Xp. I'll never install Windows 98 again. :D
John Capidecallu I had no problems getting Windows 98SE installed. I have tried on a virtual machine (on my main i5 PC and even on my Android smartphone) and a Pentium III system. The only error I ever got was when I tried to install the standard USB driver. I have windows xp and 98SE on that 40GB (15GB for Windows 98, 25GB for Windows XP) hard drive it runs all fine. And I wasn't even born when Windows 98 was released.
Had a GF FX5500 back in the days - worst graphics card I've ever bought. May I suggest checking out an ATI X600/X700? Would make a good testing video too :)
CookieTroop3r I had an fx5200 which was garbage
Funfact: The 5500 is even worse than the 5200! The GPU is slightly lower clocked and the VRAM is half as fast. (Although there are two versions of the 5200, the slower one has the same throughput as the 5500)
How much wattage? Seems power hungry
What's your guess?
I want to say 200 or so
Can you run Windows 98 with an Intel Atom? Meaning are there any driver issues or have you ever attemped this?
I doubt there are any Atom drivers for 98 at all.
Theoretically yes, it depends on exactly how new the board is. One of the older, near original, generations of Atom paired with the i915 chipset and yeah, you should be golden.
I have Atom 230 on SiS, maybe it can. Usual i945 and up has no drivers. First Atoms itself doesnt require drivers, because they have nothing inside, just CPU.
CPUs don't have drivers
If the MOBO is old enough then you won't have any issues, apart from not being able to use more than 1 core
Kizoky , modern cpus have video and chipset inside, so they are need drivers.
lets go heck of a lot older. try a AMD K6 CPU its mind whopping speed of 233MHz have to use Windows 95 that is a pain in the ASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS to install
Not really, I've done a video installing Windows 95 on a 386.
VIA C7 + VIA UniChrome + 3dfx voodoo2 I wonder if this will work?
The V2 is quite a long card, not sure if it fits. But if you find a slightly larger case, then yes, it should work just fine.
Do you have AWE32 driver for Windows 95/98?
That card doesn't work in this machine as it has a PCI slot.
PhilsComputerLab Not for that...do you have drivers so that I can use for PCem AWE32
In Vogons it only has AWE32 driver for 3.11