I drives a 2014 Mercedes B-electric, ten years 7/24. No battery problems, still charges automatically to 80% of the battery, almost like new, and then has a range extender that lets me charge to 100%. I expect to run it for at least another 10 years.
Omg recorded yesss!!!! Thanks for sharing! Edit: the leaf still has a battery that has no active thermal Management except for very low -14f heater kick in.
How is degradation affected by calendar aging (SoC, DoD, temperature)? People seem to forget about this. It's amazing how over six years, 20% DoD resulted in really good lefover capacity.
@@rogerstarkey5390Of course I saw those factors but only the six year graph seem to take calendar aging into consideration. Don't know why the higher DoD chart that sooned followed was only over two years and didn't go as far as six years. And that's only the DoD and SoC effects, without changing temperature (if I recall correctly).
One thing about LFP he didn't mention is the advances in energy density that have developed over time which has allowed greater use in EV's. It's gone from around 120Wh/kg at the cell level to 200Wh/kg, which gets it close to NMC around 250Wh/kg.
Amazing content! Would love to better know what Tesla uses in their older 18650 cells.. and what factors besides temperature would cause a battery to fail? Mfg defects?
Good stuff. Have owned several Teslas since 2015. Staying away from the top end of the battery SOC makes a lot of sense. With my Cybertruck I only use 5% of the battery on there way to work or 10% round trip. So based on the info from Dr Dahn, I plan on just charging to 50% each time and only charging past 50% when going on roadtrips. 50% is still 158 miles of range, so no problem for normal daily extra trips. So far with 7500 mile on the OD, I have only lost 2 miles of range 316 vs 318. My last vehicle, Model Y, lost 5% in its first 10K miles.
My Dell Latitude laptop has the option to stop charging at a user defined set point. I have mine set to hold 80% so no mater how long it is plugged in it never goes above that set point.
Btw, My 10 years chevy Volt is still at 84% SOH and fully balanced below 9mV delta. The secret: I left it connected every time I was capable of so the thermal management system made very small delta T and reduced temp variation and breathing effect in and out of teh battery, keeping it dry.
Thanks to Dr. Dahn. Information straight from the source, measurements, tons of true (true!) data we can rely on. Only one thing: LFP, the flat voltage curve let me assume that for a long battery life a SoC of up to 90% does not matter ? / Same with NCM cells, a low cycle use of ie 30% is the same for LFP to prolong life ? btw, got 2nd life Nissan Leaf cells as solar storage, cells are 9 years old, 72kWh total, 3 years as solar storage. Max 30°C peak, max C5 peak , cells are more stable and degradation is way way lower than in the 1st use in the car. Calendar life will be the limit, maybe they will outlive me.
From Dahn's talk a year ago, I know it is safe to have very low SOC if parked in the cold, but is it safe to have very high SOC (like 90 or 95% or 100%) when parked in the cold?
If you have a LFP battery in your car, I'm sure Jeff would say 90% or higher would be no problem and the cold temps actually help. Even a lithium battery can be kept at cold temps... it actually helps but I still don't think he would recommend long periods above 90% SOC.
@@ElectricVehicleSociety Thanks. It's just that when he talked about SOC being no problem in cold temps, it seemed to be in the context of low SOC. I'd really like solid confirmation whether or not the issues with higher SOCs are or are not mitigated by cold weather (when the car is not being used).
Question: When we are talking about "depth of discharge" is it more useful to think of it in terms of the delta on the Voltage curve or just in terms of SOC? If you had to choose wouldn't you base this off the voltage curve instead? I was just thinking about this since clearly the slope is much steeper at higher SOC's than at say 40-50% SOC. Didn't know if keeping the charge in that flatter voltage curve area of 40-50% would give you more battery life. That's to say the slope of the curve is in a way causal to how long it would last
Thanks Dr. Dahn for sharing your time and research work. Excellent Battery management information and recommendations. Great to know the differences between the main battery chemistries. I generally stick to a maximum 70% SOC (after Jeff's last talk on EVS) and it's good to know that it doesn't harm the battery to recharge it back to 70% after the daily drive is over. I could charge at 10.5 kWh AC but use a lower rate as there's no advantage to charge fast in 1 hour vs taking 3 hours overnight. The PHEV car is another matter -Always Be Charging to 100% whenever it is parked .
Thanks Dr. Dahn for a great support for people using EV. I live in Southern California and was visiting Palm Springs over 40 degrees C. I heard a loud noise when I parked. I found out from your program that my car was trying to cool its battery. I have a BMW 2023 iX. Can you tell me what type of battery I have. Appreciate your support doctor.
The EV Society may want to push for standardized battery health reports. Similar to drive clean testing drivers could take their vehicles to facilities that can offer this testing report service.
thanks for all information. I drive a tesla model 3 long range with the lg batterie from 2021. the lg m50f, e5ld. What do you mean with "outlasts the lifetime of the car"? i'm driving only 15000 km to 20000 km per year and i'm concerced about the calendaric degradation more than the cycle degradation.
Really appreciate you sharing your work. @13:31 Dr. Dahn, at 80% SoC to 0 (also 80% DoD) which no one can do practically, consistently, the mileage is actually only 80% of a rated EV range, which is not 500km (310 miles) on most EVs. I could do it on our i4 at 55 mph and so could a Model 3 LR, so it's a valid claim, but to put this example in real world terms, it's far less than 500,000 km. The more critical concern is how many cycles from 80-50 or 75-60 and I believe you'd tell us that's even better, but it's ignoring aging. Can you cover the impact of long term aging of lithium cells, or is this no longer a concern?
In other presentations he has detailed the cell in his 2019 White Paper labelled the 'million mile battery' now at 6.5 million kilometers with 5 years of 1C 3-4.1v charge/discharge at 20C. This is 40 years of equivalent use in stationary storage with little degradation, with over 50 years use indicated. th-cam.com/video/rOAYjcO6kao/w-d-xo.html
If you LOOK at the graphs I'm sure you'll find one (With commentary from Jeff) showing "Virtually zero degradation" when restricted to a narrow charge band. If you "Think it through" I believe that answers your question/ comment.....
Is there any benefit, other than the initial purchase price, of choosing a smaller pack vs a larger? My EV has a 98 kwh but they also offer a 130 kwh. I had to choose the smaller pack because of cost, but I'm hoping cost is not the only upside.
Generally speaking, if a smaller pack is sufficient to meet your driving needs, you are not just saving money, you are reducing weight which favorably impacts range per kilogram, braking and handling. While minor, it also would translate to slightly longer tire life.
Your car is 100-120 kgr lighter than the one with the bigger battery. If the range is enough for your everyday commute why do you bother? I make 50 miles every week to go to work and return, plus 10-20 more miles in the weekend for shopping and visit friends or go out for a drink or dinner. My car has 120-150 miles range, so I charge it up to 70-80% and it is at 30-40% at the end of the week. I go for a long journey once every 2-3 years. That car has enough range for me, I never even have a thought to replace it with one with bigger battery.
sounds like the battery chemistry should be on the sticker on the window. Just like you'd know what kind of engine a car has. There should be best practices that comes with the vehicle that tells you how to properly care for the battery.
As someone with 2 PHEVs and planning to swap to an EV on one but I charge outside in Canada I'm more concerned about cold weather charging. Does anyone have a resource that shows just how much energy battery heating uses during charging? I was looking at a single dual vehicle charger, but if set at 32 amps then each vehicle only gets 3.8kw at 240v... But if the heating system takes 2.8kw to maintain the battery above freezing at -25C then I'd only be getting 1kwh per hour, or only about 60km over a 10 hour charge session. In that case it seems a much higher output EVSE would be a better idea. I can't find this info anywhere in vehicle reviews.
Power to grid: The inverter senses if the grid is up. It does this by phase shifting. Because the voltage is AC it can check if the grid is up by monitoring the phase. This is a solved and a completely non issue.
If energy density in EV batteries improves enough, manufacturers could totally hide the top 20%. If range was sufficient, the batteries would then last a very long time without any special charging routines.
My Android can be set to a 85% limit, which is better than nothing, but not as good as 80%. It's beneficial for the phone companies if the batteries degrade over a few years.
Solar connects to the grid via a grid approved box that senses if their is grid power. If the grid looses power the solar does NOT supply power to the grid for safety and also because your solar is not going to be able to power the entire grid Batteries obviously need to connect to the grid only if power is detected on the grid.
38:48, All GRID TIED solar inverters have SAFETY that require detecting the presense of AC to send power to the grid.. If teh grid cut, the AC generated from teh inverter will cut and wait 5 minutes after the grid is back to Tie again to it. It use 60Hz sync to detect. There is a standard that is required on ALL grid tie inverter in Canada and United States, Company like Solar Edge or Enphase complie to this standard. No danger for the line man.
Thank you vwry much forbthisbvery interesting speech, I qppreciate it. Maybe it's a little latebfor some questions that are related to long term battery duration and state of if health. 1) We yave seen in the soeech that degradation isn't an issue, but an individual cell "can go wrong". Is there any insight about the rate of "going wrong" in 10-15-20 y.o. battery? What do you think about "non reparable" packs as 4680 Tesla's? Aren't packs with small capacity cells and big amount of cells more prone to have this kind of problems? 2) When looking for a used car in the market, which are the parameters that we should study in order to assess the state of health of the battery, not related with degradation but with probability of having a cell going wrong. 3) How do BMS calculate SOH or actual battery capacity? 4) Is it possible to get as users, data of internal resistance in the battery? Is it useful ro asses battery SOH or it is better to use other metrics?
Recurrent Auto has a study of battery replacements in EVs. Disregarding mass replacements under warranty, the rate is ~ 2%. Tesla on the graph was unreadably low. That is why, as Munro says, they chose reliability over replaceability.
Hello everyone, thank you for this interesting programs... My car doesnt have the option to charge to 75%. So i Have to calculate the amperres ant the time to get that 75% and the programmed wallbox between hours makes the work... It shouldbe great to charge from 5% to 5% as an option, but I only have 10 plus 10 ... 50 90 70 80 90 100 you know... Thank you
With our solar panels we are connected to the grid. The inverter senses if there is 240v coming in. When it stops, like during a power outage, the inverter automatically shuts off sending power out. This is all designed and handled for hydro worker safety. We don’t restart outputting hydro until the grid is back up for 10 minutes. I am confident these rules apply to VFG systems too. It’s all part of the hydro rules. Nothing new here.
33:45: In an EV battery it is not only teh cells that become deffective but also what surround them! The presense of corrosion from humidity ghetting inside the packs is highly responsible for battery degradation or premature death! calcium and water spray from wheels near the corner of the battery is also problematic. Go asking every EV battery repair shop and they will tell you that the module they replace is most of the time deffective due to corrosion from external factors. So you can have a 500 000km cell... If moisture get inside the battery it will destroy it. Ionic path created by calciym and otehr minerals make easy slow short that will get to the electrodes and busbars and unbalance them and make hard time to the BMS to keep up with that by balancing with the bleed resistors.
Given that these batteries are lasting so long for people who do small DOC's. Someone/something should put a program in place for this so you can advertise that your battery's health is far above average because of how well you took care of it. Additionally there should be a program to roll used EV batteries into grid/home storage instead of using brand new batteries for grid/home storage. The better condition the battery the more valuable it is and the more the company/program will pay the user to take the battery when they choose to get rid of the car. That way we aren't throwing EV's into trash piles, we can at least repurpose the batteries into another application. Once they have completely died then look to recycle them completely etc. If someone came up with a way to transfer your EV battery into someone using it for a house battery then that would be killer. You could buy solar and then just use the used EV battery for the storage. That way they don't have to buy another array of batteries for the house and then waste the old EV battery. You take out two birds with one stone basically
It's always boggled me that various new battery chemistry developers want to go straight to automotive, where they have sensitivity to price and extremely demanding requirements for longevity. High end laptop and phone manufacturers will very happily pay you a 100% price premium for a cell with 25% more capacity or ultra fast charging to go into their flagship models, without requiring a 10 year life span and massive production scale. The first Teslas were made with cells which had proven themselves in high end laptops for a reason...
On the other hand we have the "public" demand from Social Media warriors for Tesla to "Launch the 4680 Miracle cell they promised on Battery Day", but those "Critics" seemingly don't look at the actual graphs shown at the event which gave a projection of the gradual projected improvement over time.
@@LaidbackgamerzzOne ya the way i drive and the lack of battery degradation. raising the tire pressure a couple psi helps too. goes to show if you oversize the battery, restrict the state of charge range, and overbuild the crap out of the cooling and fixture assembly, the batteries outlast the car
I don't believe back feeding the grid during power outages is a real problem unless there is a break in the high voltage line very close to your house. If the power was out and the main high voltage line is in tack and you tried to back feed the grid, you would be trying to back feed power to every house in your vicinity and that would trip your inverter's breaker. Also, before the utility repair people work on a high voltage line, the ground it to the neutral for safety.
We are over thinking this. The battery software on the screen tells us what level to charge to. Just follow those instructions. Those instructions are based on all this information presented. Why presume we know better after watching TH-cam?
My screen says to charge to 80%. It says nothing about more frequent and smaller DoD being better for the battery, or keeping the SoC at around 30% if not driving it for a period during hot weather. These videos are very useful to ensure we get the best ROI on our batteries.
I don’t understand his contention that leaving LFP batteries are 100% is not an issue which he repeated several times. From everything I have read and understand from the chemistry charging to 100% is important on the software side to calibrate the SOC, but the basic underlying chemistry remains that 100% charge especially at high heat is bad for any lithium battery including LFP Sequestering all the ions to one electrode plus adding heat to drive chemical reactions is never good for a battery regardless of whether NMC or LFP. That’s why the Tesla manual says to charge to 100% once a week and the Ford manual says once a month. Neither says leave it at 100% continuous.
I think we should challenge the notion of 2nd use a little. Energy companies and financiers won't pay for hackney'd grid storage solutions utilizing unknown batteries from used cars. It was a nice idea, but it hasn't proven practical to do at scale. I don't mean to say it shouldn't be utilized, but as we often see, the market is proving to be much different than the theory. Truthfully, lithium batteries are a poor use for the grid, but I'm open to the argument that in 2nd life form, that's a more sustainable proposition than new lithium or peaker plants. We should really just rethink using these high density, light weight cells for grid use. Instead it would make far more sense to repair the packs, by replacing the failed cells and keeping them operating in transportation for much longer. Current automotive BMS systems are intolerant of cells of varying ability/capacity, so we aren't practicing cell replacement yet.
OK... In an ideal world we WOULD be using containerised Sodium ion, or Heat, or Gravity, etc..... Give me a shout when they arrive! WHEN they do, AND they scale, the Lithium cells can be recycled into better material for use in the latest tech high energy cells. UNTIL then.... what's the alternative?
The cells are being reused for transportation. But the labor replacement cost to install a reconditioned battery pack most often exceeds the value of an older vehicle with a failed pack.
If it is recommended to charge your NMC battery only to 75%, shouldn't manufacturers of these vehicules be forced to promote them with driving ranges at 75% battery instead of the more theoretical 100% capacity? It will favour manufactures that offer superior chemistry like LFP that you can actually use daily charged to 100%. As a consumer I feel the 75% use is deceptive marketing if you state 100% charge distances...
Actually the 100% capacity isn't theoretical. He said to charge to 100% whenever you need to and 'don't worry about it'. If you want to maximise the life and performance of your NMC battery, avoid charging to 100% every day.
@ElectricVehicleSociety sorry but that is double speak, as an engineer I understand why you should not DC fast charge your car every day but an average consumer does not understand. He sees a promised range of 400 km and that is not the same as the reduced 300 km range. Having an objective battery health metric so that average consumers can judge battery degradation as the second hand BEVs come onto the second hand market is even more important...
My NMC battery that I charge to 70% for routine local driving still gets an occasional 100% charge before a long trip out of town, which is the only time that its long range matters and then I get the full advertised capacity. No deception or reduced utility at all. Also, LFP is not superior in all respects. Each battery type has pros and cons. LFP is heavier and bulkier for the same number of kWh and its performance degrade more at lower temperatures. I used LFP in a car I converted 15 years ago because it was the only Li battery that was affordable with adequate performance. No commercial car used LFP because it didn't have good enough energy density for a commercial product. Now both NMC and LFP have improved on energy and power density but NMC is still better on those. It's just that LFP is now good enough and cheaper.
The value of listening to people who know what they're talking about ... Invaluable
Appreciate your feedback. We learn a lot from Jeff every time he comes on the channel.
Thank you again! These presentations are fantastic. I am picking up my new, full EV this evening and it is going to be the start of a great adventure.
Thanks for letting us know you enjoyed it. Enjoy that new ride!
Jeff is an encyclopedia of information on batteries, always a great watch. Thank you for sharing this!
Agreed. I always come away with new understanding.
Priceless info right here. I will be charging my EV more often now. Thank you.
DR Dahn is a rock star! I could listen to him for hours and always look forward to his presentations! Thanks so much!
I drives a 2014 Mercedes B-electric, ten years 7/24. No battery problems, still charges automatically to 80% of the battery, almost like new, and then has a range extender that lets me charge to 100%. I expect to run it for at least another 10 years.
Omg recorded yesss!!!! Thanks for sharing! Edit: the leaf still has a battery that has no active thermal Management except for very low -14f heater kick in.
Check out his previous recording too. It is awesome.
th-cam.com/video/i31x5JW361k/w-d-xo.html
great atmosphere and scientific and practical enthusiasm
Very useful information in this presentation!
How is degradation affected by calendar aging (SoC, DoD, temperature)? People seem to forget about this.
It's amazing how over six years, 20% DoD resulted in really good lefover capacity.
Look at the Graphs.
State of charge and temperature was accounted for
@@rogerstarkey5390Of course I saw those factors but only the six year graph seem to take calendar aging into consideration. Don't know why the higher DoD chart that sooned followed was only over two years and didn't go as far as six years. And that's only the DoD and SoC effects, without changing temperature (if I recall correctly).
One thing about LFP he didn't mention is the advances in energy density that have developed over time which has allowed greater use in EV's. It's gone from around 120Wh/kg at the cell level to 200Wh/kg, which gets it close to NMC around 250Wh/kg.
Amazing content! Would love to better know what Tesla uses in their older 18650 cells.. and what factors besides temperature would cause a battery to fail? Mfg defects?
Good stuff. Have owned several Teslas since 2015. Staying away from the top end of the battery SOC makes a lot of sense. With my Cybertruck I only use 5% of the battery on there way to work or 10% round trip. So based on the info from Dr Dahn, I plan on just charging to 50% each time and only charging past 50% when going on roadtrips. 50% is still 158 miles of range, so no problem for normal daily extra trips. So far with 7500 mile on the OD, I have only lost 2 miles of range 316 vs 318. My last vehicle, Model Y, lost 5% in its first 10K miles.
Great data sir
My Dell Latitude laptop has the option to stop charging at a user defined set point. I have mine set to hold 80% so no mater how long it is plugged in it never goes above that set point.
Btw, My 10 years chevy Volt is still at 84% SOH and fully balanced below 9mV delta. The secret: I left it connected every time I was capable of so the thermal management system made very small delta T and reduced temp variation and breathing effect in and out of teh battery, keeping it dry.
Thanks to Dr. Dahn. Information straight from the source, measurements, tons of true (true!) data we can rely on. Only one thing: LFP, the flat voltage curve let me assume that for a long battery life a SoC of up to 90% does not matter ? / Same with NCM cells, a low cycle use of ie 30% is the same for LFP to prolong life ? btw, got 2nd life Nissan Leaf cells as solar storage, cells are 9 years old, 72kWh total, 3 years as solar storage. Max 30°C peak, max C5 peak , cells are more stable and degradation is way way lower than in the 1st use in the car. Calendar life will be the limit, maybe they will outlive me.
From Dahn's talk a year ago, I know it is safe to have very low SOC if parked in the cold, but is it safe to have very high SOC (like 90 or 95% or 100%) when parked in the cold?
If you have a LFP battery in your car, I'm sure Jeff would say 90% or higher would be no problem and the cold temps actually help. Even a lithium battery can be kept at cold temps... it actually helps but I still don't think he would recommend long periods above 90% SOC.
@@ElectricVehicleSociety Thanks. It's just that when he talked about SOC being no problem in cold temps, it seemed to be in the context of low SOC. I'd really like solid confirmation whether or not the issues with higher SOCs are or are not mitigated by cold weather (when the car is not being used).
@@TomTWalker I hope to have him back again in the new year so let's try and remember to ask this question specifically.
Question: When we are talking about "depth of discharge" is it more useful to think of it in terms of the delta on the Voltage curve or just in terms of SOC? If you had to choose wouldn't you base this off the voltage curve instead? I was just thinking about this since clearly the slope is much steeper at higher SOC's than at say 40-50% SOC. Didn't know if keeping the charge in that flatter voltage curve area of 40-50% would give you more battery life. That's to say the slope of the curve is in a way causal to how long it would last
Thanks Dr. Dahn for sharing your time and research work. Excellent Battery management information and recommendations. Great to know the differences between the main battery chemistries. I generally stick to a maximum 70% SOC (after Jeff's last talk on EVS) and it's good to know that it doesn't harm the battery to recharge it back to 70% after the daily drive is over. I could charge at 10.5 kWh AC but use a lower rate as there's no advantage to charge fast in 1 hour vs taking 3 hours overnight.
The PHEV car is another matter -Always Be Charging to 100% whenever it is parked .
Thanks Dr. Dahn for a great support for people using EV. I live in Southern California and was visiting Palm Springs over 40 degrees C.
I heard a loud noise when I parked. I found out from your program that my car was trying to cool its battery.
I have a BMW 2023 iX. Can you tell me what type of battery I have.
Appreciate your support doctor.
kWh is battery capacity. kW is charge rate.
The EV Society may want to push for standardized battery health reports. Similar to drive clean testing drivers could take their vehicles to facilities that can offer this testing report service.
thanks for all information. I drive a tesla model 3 long range with the lg batterie from 2021. the lg m50f, e5ld. What do you mean with "outlasts the lifetime of the car"? i'm driving only 15000 km to 20000 km per year and i'm concerced about the calendaric degradation more than the cycle degradation.
How do we find out what chemistry of battery is used in our EV battery? Are there good online resources to help with this?
Really appreciate you sharing your work. @13:31 Dr. Dahn, at 80% SoC to 0 (also 80% DoD) which no one can do practically, consistently, the mileage is actually only 80% of a rated EV range, which is not 500km (310 miles) on most EVs. I could do it on our i4 at 55 mph and so could a Model 3 LR, so it's a valid claim, but to put this example in real world terms, it's far less than 500,000 km. The more critical concern is how many cycles from 80-50 or 75-60 and I believe you'd tell us that's even better, but it's ignoring aging. Can you cover the impact of long term aging of lithium cells, or is this no longer a concern?
In other presentations he has detailed the cell in his 2019 White Paper labelled the 'million mile battery' now at 6.5 million kilometers with 5 years of 1C 3-4.1v charge/discharge at 20C. This is 40 years of equivalent use in stationary storage with little degradation, with over 50 years use indicated.
th-cam.com/video/rOAYjcO6kao/w-d-xo.html
If you LOOK at the graphs I'm sure you'll find one (With commentary from Jeff) showing "Virtually zero degradation" when restricted to a narrow charge band.
If you "Think it through" I believe that answers your question/ comment.....
Does anyone know which Canadian law encouraged L2 chargers at Canadian national parks? We could use L2 chargers at US national parks.
Moral of the story: for Nickel chemistries, if you can manage to charge your battery to 75% or less it will basically last Forever
I wonder when we will see a pathway to easily sell those batteries once the car dies in order to unlock the used battery value?
Is there any benefit, other than the initial purchase price, of choosing a smaller pack vs a larger? My EV has a 98 kwh but they also offer a 130 kwh. I had to choose the smaller pack because of cost, but I'm hoping cost is not the only upside.
Generally speaking, if a smaller pack is sufficient to meet your driving needs, you are not just saving money, you are reducing weight which favorably impacts range per kilogram, braking and handling. While minor, it also would translate to slightly longer tire life.
Your car is 100-120 kgr lighter than the one with the bigger battery. If the range is enough for your everyday commute why do you bother? I make 50 miles every week to go to work and return, plus 10-20 more miles in the weekend for shopping and visit friends or go out for a drink or dinner. My car has 120-150 miles range, so I charge it up to 70-80% and it is at 30-40% at the end of the week. I go for a long journey once every 2-3 years. That car has enough range for me, I never even have a thought to replace it with one with bigger battery.
sounds like the battery chemistry should be on the sticker on the window. Just like you'd know what kind of engine a car has. There should be best practices that comes with the vehicle that tells you how to properly care for the battery.
I agree 100%!
As someone with 2 PHEVs and planning to swap to an EV on one but I charge outside in Canada I'm more concerned about cold weather charging.
Does anyone have a resource that shows just how much energy battery heating uses during charging? I was looking at a single dual vehicle charger, but if set at 32 amps then each vehicle only gets 3.8kw at 240v... But if the heating system takes 2.8kw to maintain the battery above freezing at -25C then I'd only be getting 1kwh per hour, or only about 60km over a 10 hour charge session. In that case it seems a much higher output EVSE would be a better idea.
I can't find this info anywhere in vehicle reviews.
Power to grid: The inverter senses if the grid is up. It does this by phase shifting. Because the voltage is AC it can check if the grid is up by monitoring the phase. This is a solved and a completely non issue.
Android phones have been doing 80% charge cap for years too. Most modern laptops do too now. 👍
If energy density in EV batteries improves enough, manufacturers could totally hide the top 20%. If range was sufficient, the batteries would then last a very long time without any special charging routines.
@@EVDiscoveries Who told you that phone manufacturers want the phones last more than a year? If they last 5 years they will bankrupt.
My Android can be set to a 85% limit, which is better than nothing, but not as good as 80%. It's beneficial for the phone companies if the batteries degrade over a few years.
Solar connects to the grid via a grid approved box that senses if their is grid power. If the grid looses power the solar does NOT supply power to the grid for safety and also because your solar is not going to be able to power the entire grid
Batteries obviously need to connect to the grid only if power is detected on the grid.
38:48, All GRID TIED solar inverters have SAFETY that require detecting the presense of AC to send power to the grid.. If teh grid cut, the AC generated from teh inverter will cut and wait 5 minutes after the grid is back to Tie again to it. It use 60Hz sync to detect. There is a standard that is required on ALL grid tie inverter in Canada and United States, Company like Solar Edge or Enphase complie to this standard. No danger for the line man.
Thank you vwry much forbthisbvery interesting speech, I qppreciate it.
Maybe it's a little latebfor some questions that are related to long term battery duration and state of if health.
1) We yave seen in the soeech that degradation isn't an issue, but an individual cell "can go wrong". Is there any insight about the rate of "going wrong" in 10-15-20 y.o. battery? What do you think about "non reparable" packs as 4680 Tesla's? Aren't packs with small capacity cells and big amount of cells more prone to have this kind of problems?
2) When looking for a used car in the market, which are the parameters that we should study in order to assess the state of health of the battery, not related with degradation but with probability of having a cell going wrong.
3) How do BMS calculate SOH or actual battery capacity?
4) Is it possible to get as users, data of internal resistance in the battery? Is it useful ro asses battery SOH or it is better to use other metrics?
Recurrent Auto has a study of battery replacements in EVs. Disregarding mass replacements under warranty, the rate is ~ 2%. Tesla on the graph was unreadably low. That is why, as Munro says, they chose reliability over replaceability.
Hello everyone, thank you for this interesting programs... My car doesnt have the option to charge to 75%. So i Have to calculate the amperres ant the time to get that 75% and the programmed wallbox between hours makes the work... It shouldbe great to charge from 5% to 5% as an option, but I only have 10 plus 10 ... 50 90 70 80 90 100 you know... Thank you
Then choose to charge to 70%. Lower is better until you get to an extreme like below 10%.
With our solar panels we are connected to the grid. The inverter senses if there is 240v coming in. When it stops, like during a power outage, the inverter automatically shuts off sending power out. This is all designed and handled for hydro worker safety. We don’t restart outputting hydro until the grid is back up for 10 minutes. I am confident these rules apply to VFG systems too. It’s all part of the hydro rules. Nothing new here.
Should i set max SoC for NMC to max 65% or 60% during hot summer months?
If you don't drive over 80 miles per charge, I'd go with 60%
33:45: In an EV battery it is not only teh cells that become deffective but also what surround them! The presense of corrosion from humidity ghetting inside the packs is highly responsible for battery degradation or premature death! calcium and water spray from wheels near the corner of the battery is also problematic. Go asking every EV battery repair shop and they will tell you that the module they replace is most of the time deffective due to corrosion from external factors. So you can have a 500 000km cell... If moisture get inside the battery it will destroy it. Ionic path created by calciym and otehr minerals make easy slow short that will get to the electrodes and busbars and unbalance them and make hard time to the BMS to keep up with that by balancing with the bleed resistors.
Given that these batteries are lasting so long for people who do small DOC's. Someone/something should put a program in place for this so you can advertise that your battery's health is far above average because of how well you took care of it. Additionally there should be a program to roll used EV batteries into grid/home storage instead of using brand new batteries for grid/home storage. The better condition the battery the more valuable it is and the more the company/program will pay the user to take the battery when they choose to get rid of the car. That way we aren't throwing EV's into trash piles, we can at least repurpose the batteries into another application. Once they have completely died then look to recycle them completely etc.
If someone came up with a way to transfer your EV battery into someone using it for a house battery then that would be killer. You could buy solar and then just use the used EV battery for the storage. That way they don't have to buy another array of batteries for the house and then waste the old EV battery. You take out two birds with one stone basically
It's always boggled me that various new battery chemistry developers want to go straight to automotive, where they have sensitivity to price and extremely demanding requirements for longevity. High end laptop and phone manufacturers will very happily pay you a 100% price premium for a cell with 25% more capacity or ultra fast charging to go into their flagship models, without requiring a 10 year life span and massive production scale. The first Teslas were made with cells which had proven themselves in high end laptops for a reason...
On the other hand we have the "public" demand from Social Media warriors for Tesla to "Launch the 4680 Miracle cell they promised on Battery Day", but those "Critics" seemingly don't look at the actual graphs shown at the event which gave a projection of the gradual projected improvement over time.
2013 chevy volt, 130k miles on the odom (210km). new it got 38 miles, now its only getting 50-55mi. lol
So it's getting better mileage with age?
@@LaidbackgamerzzOne ya the way i drive and the lack of battery degradation. raising the tire pressure a couple psi helps too. goes to show if you oversize the battery, restrict the state of charge range, and overbuild the crap out of the cooling and fixture assembly, the batteries outlast the car
I don't believe back feeding the grid during power outages is a real problem unless there is a break in the high voltage line very close to your house. If the power was out and the main high voltage line is in tack and you tried to back feed the grid, you would be trying to back feed power to every house in your vicinity and that would trip your inverter's breaker. Also, before the utility repair people work on a high voltage line, the ground it to the neutral for safety.
We are over thinking this. The battery software on the screen tells us what level to charge to. Just follow those instructions. Those instructions are based on all this information presented. Why presume we know better after watching TH-cam?
The battery software doesn't know if you will go for a long journey tommorow morning or you will go to the supermarket!!!!
My screen says to charge to 80%. It says nothing about more frequent and smaller DoD being better for the battery, or keeping the SoC at around 30% if not driving it for a period during hot weather. These videos are very useful to ensure we get the best ROI on our batteries.
SaKuu
The world has to recognise the Electron Economy and Global Energy Budget of holographic nucleation Singularity-point principles..(?)
I suspect "The World" would have to understand the question/ concept before making comment? 😂
You are nearly clever. @@rogerstarkey5390
I don’t understand his contention that leaving LFP batteries are 100% is not an issue which he repeated several times. From everything I have read and understand from the chemistry charging to 100% is important on the software side to calibrate the SOC, but the basic underlying chemistry remains that 100% charge especially at high heat is bad for any lithium battery including LFP Sequestering all the ions to one electrode plus adding heat to drive chemical reactions is never good for a battery regardless of whether NMC or LFP. That’s why the Tesla manual says to charge to 100% once a week and the Ford manual says once a month. Neither says leave it at 100% continuous.
I would agree with you. Best strategy for LFP is to charge up to 100% and balance just before use to minimise time at 100%
I think we should challenge the notion of 2nd use a little. Energy companies and financiers won't pay for hackney'd grid storage solutions utilizing unknown batteries from used cars. It was a nice idea, but it hasn't proven practical to do at scale. I don't mean to say it shouldn't be utilized, but as we often see, the market is proving to be much different than the theory. Truthfully, lithium batteries are a poor use for the grid, but I'm open to the argument that in 2nd life form, that's a more sustainable proposition than new lithium or peaker plants. We should really just rethink using these high density, light weight cells for grid use. Instead it would make far more sense to repair the packs, by replacing the failed cells and keeping them operating in transportation for much longer. Current automotive BMS systems are intolerant of cells of varying ability/capacity, so we aren't practicing cell replacement yet.
OK... In an ideal world we WOULD be using containerised Sodium ion, or Heat, or Gravity, etc..... Give me a shout when they arrive!
WHEN they do, AND they scale, the Lithium cells can be recycled into better material for use in the latest tech high energy cells.
UNTIL then.... what's the alternative?
The cells are being reused for transportation. But the labor replacement cost to install a reconditioned battery pack most often exceeds the value of an older vehicle with a failed pack.
If it is recommended to charge your NMC battery only to 75%, shouldn't manufacturers of these vehicules be forced to promote them with driving ranges at 75% battery instead of the more theoretical 100% capacity? It will favour manufactures that offer superior chemistry like LFP that you can actually use daily charged to 100%. As a consumer I feel the 75% use is deceptive marketing if you state 100% charge distances...
Actually the 100% capacity isn't theoretical. He said to charge to 100% whenever you need to and 'don't worry about it'. If you want to maximise the life and performance of your NMC battery, avoid charging to 100% every day.
@ElectricVehicleSociety sorry but that is double speak, as an engineer I understand why you should not DC fast charge your car every day but an average consumer does not understand. He sees a promised range of 400 km and that is not the same as the reduced 300 km range. Having an objective battery health metric so that average consumers can judge battery degradation as the second hand BEVs come onto the second hand market is even more important...
My NMC battery that I charge to 70% for routine local driving still gets an occasional 100% charge before a long trip out of town, which is the only time that its long range matters and then I get the full advertised capacity. No deception or reduced utility at all.
Also, LFP is not superior in all respects. Each battery type has pros and cons. LFP is heavier and bulkier for the same number of kWh and its performance degrade more at lower temperatures. I used LFP in a car I converted 15 years ago because it was the only Li battery that was affordable with adequate performance. No commercial car used LFP because it didn't have good enough energy density for a commercial product. Now both NMC and LFP have improved on energy and power density but NMC is still better on those. It's just that LFP is now good enough and cheaper.