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A really interesting contribution. Thanks very much to all. I have spent the last 46 years in the industry, the last 30 as a traincrew supervisor. Mick speaks so many home truths.
Once again a highly compelling interview. Highly informative and conducted in a manner where us viewers are educated on the facts. The considerable range of questions teased these out superbly without the feeling of being the stooge being made to listen to some politically driven agenda. All in all excellent. During the present industrial dispute I have increasingly formed the opinion based on what the principal politicians and their puppies have said that fundamentally, none of them have ever seriously bothered to educate themselves to understand precisely what skill set, work and home environment is needed to safely undertake the role of driver. If they had there wouldn't be the nonsense of offers which threaten to seriously compromise the need for effective fatigue management by extending shift patterns and reducing rest periods in between. A subject which crops up time and again when incidents occur - and will continue to do so. Instead politicians persist in presenting the role as somehow something any of them could do with a few minutes on a simulator coupled with tired inferences to train driving being broadly equivalent to coach or HGV driving. Those roles too are skilled, but a whole different set to driving trains. But the tropes continue unabated from the usual sources, presumably to just stir the pot rather than attempt to find resolution. It's almost as if Ministers have literally got a death wish in their crusade to cut costs. Clearly history is totally lost on these misguided zealots. On a side note Richard biting his tongue when the discussion got onto the subject mantra of 'build it and they will come' made me smile - thinking of the subsequent 'Restoring Beeching - Anything Achieved' episode. Keep up the great work.
The thing that made the biggest impact was the initial discussion about splitting drivers depots into TOCs (The Sheffield story), which came back with the infamous 40% minimum service timetable could in all probability require you to have more drivers on duty than a normal service day, simply because you end up with too many oddbits of diagrams to cover.
Hi Gordon. Yes, I think that was a point he made. In a full establishment and with a fair wind depending on which day you implemented the Work Notice, it might be possible to get close to 40% but these days, it's highly unlikely for the reasons you say. quite likely that far more than 40% drivers would be required to run a 40% service.
Any chance of now doing the same interview with whoever the latest Transport Minister & Rail Ministers are? Would be nice to see them try and comprehensively answer the same sort of questions!
Please do. I think we both know the answer, but it would be very interesting to hear such an in-depth interview from the other side or whether they just have their half-truth soundbites that they keep trotting out! Well done, and thank you, for such a grown-up interview that didn't take one side or the other, nor keep chucking in half-truths. 👍
a great presentation from 3 people who know what there talking about unlike the politicians who only think they know what they are talking about. little wonder the nation is broken (like nigel i nearly typed another word to describe the situation way more accurately)
Oh you gave him a very easy time! No challenging questions or opinions of the long-suffering rail user, or taxpayer - the people who’re funding the strikers. It was a nice chat between chums! Real reform is badly needed - Nigel & Richard, you can do better than this…
I rather feel you have shown which side of the debate you are on! As far no challenging questions, I rather thought the section on MSL was fairly direct! We’re not chums - but we are respectful and professional. It’s up to the listener to make up their mind.
One of Mick's quips was that Margaret Thatcher only travelled by train once in her Remiership. As far as I know it was three times. 1st Once to Sandy to open a new HQ for the RSPB. 2nd. To York to a Tory party meeting at Castle Howard. She unveiled a plaque on an electrification mast. This is at the end of a bay platform near the gate line. 3rd, she got trapped in Bradford by a sudden snowfall when her heavy Daimler couldn't get up the hills. She was put in the back cab of a DMU to Leeds and a London express was held for her att Leeds. The protection officers offered to clear the compartment next to the cab for the rest of the official party. Apparently she replied, No, make them stand and have to talk the ratepayers of West Yorkshire. The image of the iron lady bouncing backwards up the bank through Laisterdyke is thought provoking.
One fact often overlooked about Thatcher was that those of her Transport Secretaries who stayed in the job long enough built very good relationships with BR Chairmen, to the point of persuading her that BR can be trusted to keep control of costs and invest money wisely. That's what led in particular to a number of electrifications such as West Anglia, ECML, Colchester-Norwich, Carstairs-Edinburgh and Oxted-Uckfield. IC225s and various EMU/ DMU classes were also authorised. The notion that she was 'anti-railway' is not entirely accurate!
Absolutely brilliant podcast. The failure of the DfT and the RDG is shown in it's true colours. The Sheffield to Cleethorpes via Brigg Line 1 round trip Monday to Friday service is in Link 1 at Northern Sheffield Traincrew, only a few drivers know this route In a few weeks time the line will between Scunthorpe and Doncaster due to bridge works. The Brigg Line is the diversionary route that TransPennine Express could take, they refuse to train their crew, bus replacement is easier.
I can't believe that such a quality vlog has so few subscribers. You can't be anything other than political and Nigel and Richard are competent enough to balance the discussion and show us whats really going on.
That's so kind of you to say! We've haven't been going terribly long and we're leaning all the time - but if you can tell all your friends and colleagues about us and get them to subscribes as well, that would be splendid!
Very informative discussion, even to me as a life-long rail employee. The rail industry is fortunate to have two main trade union leaders who are coherent as well as passionate about their job. The Two Micks have the gift of good communication which helps all but devoutly anti-rail members of the public understand the isues. Through their arrogance and pig-headedness, government ministers obviously underestimated the RMT and ASLEF and don't seem to want to understand the realities of running a national rail service. The fact that the unions settled ages ago with empowered employers such as FOCs, Merseyrail, Scotrail, open access operators and TfW; and the fact that TOCs themselves have no wish to implement the hare-brained MSL Act, speaks volumes.
Glad you enjoyed the episode. Even as someone involved in the railways for a fairly long time now, I too found the discussion informative. Cheers. Richard
Just come back by air from Zurich to London, 120 passengers, 2drivers average salary £112, mainly fly by wire, guided flight, Plus4cabin staff. Got train to midlands, full, say 350 onboard. 1driver average salary £65 plus a train manager . Why the difference?
Brilliant pod as usual, Political? Yes but honest. I can't help but think the MSL's are like Maggie saying we will pass a bill that will let those that legally want to work, work. The intent was to destroy the miners, in a way they did as they close all the pits. Is the PM's intent to manage its decline? I want to use rail more than I do but last train back from Leeds 18:19 means I can't get home if I miss it. You answered my long ago question of using the S&C as a secondary route, so thank you. Great pod👍😊
Please do a piece of the Daily Telegraph’s recent ludicrous Saturday article on British Rail complete with 1980s sandwich tropes (days of full silver service on InterCity!) and illustrated with a “1940s strike”, photo which was actually 1970s scene of holidaymakers).
I'm not too surprised that Mr Whelan was given such an easy ride and opportunity to sound off on his numerous opinions and hobby horses, our presenters have made no secret of their allegiances. That said, I do find the series engaging even if I don't always agree.
Mick was spot on here, with everything. Every single time it feels as though it boils down to logic "common sense" even. At every step its clear he wants the railway to be run for the benefit of its users and for his membership. Perhaps his political commentaries are cheeky, but is he wrong?
What is not understood is that if you are considering filling a vacancy or increase the compliment of drivers. Then, the recruitment process to fill those gaps is at least 12 months before you get the applicants in railway employment before their training starts. Training can take up to 12 months depending on the route spread and number of traction types at the depot.
I think one inevitable 'time bomb' that was very clearly outlined is the very major problem of age profile and the mass retirements coming up. The last batch of 'secondmen / drivers assistants' are now coming to the end of their careers. There seems to be complete ignorance by the powers that be as the impact on training new drivers from scratch as that makes a dent in what dividends can be paid to shareholders of private railway companies. Excellent podcast and very enjoyable and informative
Thanks for the kind comments about the podcast. Glad to hear you enjoyed it. Yes, the age profile in the industry is incredibly concerning and there isn't currently a succession plan in place to replace those who will be leaving.
@@GreenSignals only discovered it by accident but watched this episode and subscribed immediately. Fully respect what Richard has done in his career and yes Virgin recruited and trained their required number of drivers for the VHF timetable (which I mostly compiled from the NR angle) and I don’t recall a train being cancelled due to a shortage of drivers, except at times of disruption. Virgin WC staff were very motivated indeed and morale was good. Since Avanti took over the services and morale have massively deteriorated and reliability is not good at all.
I'd love a German style fares reduction, but it's worth noting that earlier in the show it was mentioned that German railways are also struggling with debt, selling off acquisitions and have labour disputes. There might be a bit of a conflict between those positions.
I'm not sure a German style fares reduction would work anyway. But there are some really interesting pilots underway such as Scotland's abolition of peak fares (the final results of which we are really keen to see).
The Tories have always been anti - union . From the miners strike to the present day . We had dozens of separate companies in the 1920s . The big four upto 1948 , BR up to privatisation ( under invested for decades) . Even George Stephenson envisioned a unified railway for the whole country. Will it happen under Labour ? It works in bigger countries than the UK , if rail travel was made easier again , the people will have confidence to use the system again . Car travel is becoming intolerable due to congestion, the motorways used as freight routes , and too many lines were closed in the Beeching era . Cheers DaveH.Carnforth.
There's certainly plenty of perspectives on the subject David, but the one thing we can certainly agree on I'm sure is that if the number of vehicles registered on Britain's roads keeps rising at the same rate it has in the last 20 years, we are heading for a serious problem.
Surely if train drivers’ wages can only go up in return for improvements in “productivity”, and inflation doesn’t come into it, then passengers’ fare rises should only occur when the quality of rail travel increases? As such, with many timetables still reduced post-covid, the price of tickets should actually be going down.
Was put off by the ludicrous statement from motor mouth, 'Everyone in employment deserves a pay rise'. Only a militant trade unionist could say something so stupid. And then £65,000 a year for a job it only takes a year to train to do isn't enough, come off it do we look stupid.
I think his point was that in the light of significant inflation and cost of living increases over the last few years, real wages have been eroded whatever job you do and in whatever sector - assuming your basic wage has not risen at the same rate. Which is mathematically true. But we're pleased that the episode has generated a great deal of comment. That was certainly the intention.
Wether you earn £1000, £10,000 or £100,000 a year that is what people live to. And as such you feel the effects of inflation no matter how much you earn. That is where everyone deserves a raise comes from.
@@justincrawford7508 Oh do they, what if they aren't performing, what if their company/organisation can't afford it? 1970's trade unionism, we can blackmail our way to unrealistic pay rises no matter the inflationary pressures that puts on prices and the damage it puts on passenger numbers on the railways. It's just devil take the hind most. I'm a retired civil engineer who as is the way in construction had to move around for work so my pension comes out of several funds, one of which has taken a huge hit thanks to COVID and Mr Putin and consequently I have for the last 12 months I have had to take what is laughingly called a 'pension holiday', in practical terms a 15 % pay cut and through a period of high inflation. Good isn't it? Do I go on strike? Where do I picket? Does Mick care? Doubtful.
@@kimrennie5294 Indeed only a year, its laughable. It took me like any other engineer 4 years of academic study to degree level and 3 years of training under agreement before I could sit the exams at the ICE. Over the next 42 years of constant updating of my training both formal and on the job training through eras of little work when there where no pay rises or if you where unlucky pay cuts. Never got near £65,000 a year or its equivalent. Fortunately for everyone including Mick and his mates, professional engineers don't strike.
If you enjoy this episode, please click the like button 👍It makes a massive difference to us and helps us to keep bringing you more episodes. Thank you!
A really interesting contribution. Thanks very much to all. I have spent the last 46 years in the industry, the last 30 as a traincrew supervisor. Mick speaks so many home truths.
Thank you all once again - I'm pretty exhausted after that, but it was simply brilliant!
Thank you Brian. It was great to do, so really glad you enjoyed it. It's certainly generated plenty of reaction!
Once again a highly compelling interview. Highly informative and conducted in a manner where us viewers are educated on the facts. The considerable range of questions teased these out superbly without the feeling of being the stooge being made to listen to some politically driven agenda. All in all excellent.
During the present industrial dispute I have increasingly formed the opinion based on what the principal politicians and their puppies have said that fundamentally, none of them have ever seriously bothered to educate themselves to understand precisely what skill set, work and home environment is needed to safely undertake the role of driver. If they had there wouldn't be the nonsense of offers which threaten to seriously compromise the need for effective fatigue management by extending shift patterns and reducing rest periods in between. A subject which crops up time and again when incidents occur - and will continue to do so.
Instead politicians persist in presenting the role as somehow something any of them could do with a few minutes on a simulator coupled with tired inferences to train driving being broadly equivalent to coach or HGV driving. Those roles too are skilled, but a whole different set to driving trains. But the tropes continue unabated from the usual sources, presumably to just stir the pot rather than attempt to find resolution.
It's almost as if Ministers have literally got a death wish in their crusade to cut costs. Clearly history is totally lost on these misguided zealots.
On a side note Richard biting his tongue when the discussion got onto the subject mantra of 'build it and they will come' made me smile - thinking of the subsequent 'Restoring Beeching - Anything Achieved' episode.
Keep up the great work.
Thanks for such thoughtful feedback. Really appreciate it and we will certainly try to keep it up. Sorry about the tongue biting!
The thing that made the biggest impact was the initial discussion about splitting drivers depots into TOCs (The Sheffield story), which came back with the infamous 40% minimum service timetable could in all probability require you to have more drivers on duty than a normal service day, simply because you end up with too many oddbits of diagrams to cover.
Hi Gordon. Yes, I think that was a point he made. In a full establishment and with a fair wind depending on which day you implemented the Work Notice, it might be possible to get close to 40% but these days, it's highly unlikely for the reasons you say. quite likely that far more than 40% drivers would be required to run a 40% service.
Any chance of now doing the same interview with whoever the latest Transport Minister & Rail Ministers are? Would be nice to see them try and comprehensively answer the same sort of questions!
We can but ask!
Please do. I think we both know the answer, but it would be very interesting to hear such an in-depth interview from the other side or whether they just have their half-truth soundbites that they keep trotting out! Well done, and thank you, for such a grown-up interview that didn't take one side or the other, nor keep chucking in half-truths. 👍
a great presentation from 3 people who know what there talking about unlike the politicians who only think they know what they are talking about. little wonder the nation is broken (like nigel i nearly typed another word to describe the situation way more accurately)
Thanks Phil!
One word..... Brilliant! Thank you.
Two words in response - "Many thanks!!". Really appreciate the positive feedback!
Excellent piece, gentlemen, thank you.
Thanks Andy - that's really kind feedback. Cheers. Richard
Oh you gave him a very easy time! No challenging questions or opinions of the long-suffering rail user, or taxpayer - the people who’re funding the strikers. It was a nice chat between chums! Real reform is badly needed - Nigel & Richard, you can do better than this…
I rather feel you have shown which side of the debate you are on!
As far no challenging questions, I rather thought the section on MSL was fairly direct!
We’re not chums - but we are respectful and professional. It’s up to the listener to make up their mind.
Your ire should be directed towards the government
One of Mick's quips was that Margaret Thatcher only travelled by train once in her
Remiership. As far as I know it was three times.
1st Once to Sandy to open a new HQ for the RSPB.
2nd. To York to a Tory party meeting at Castle Howard. She unveiled a plaque on an electrification mast. This is at the end of a bay platform near the gate line.
3rd, she got trapped in Bradford by a sudden snowfall when her heavy Daimler couldn't get up the hills. She was put in the back cab of a DMU to Leeds and a London express was held for her att Leeds. The protection officers offered to clear the compartment next to the cab for the rest of the official party. Apparently she replied, No, make them stand and have to talk the ratepayers of West Yorkshire. The image of the iron lady bouncing backwards up the bank through Laisterdyke is thought provoking.
One fact often overlooked about Thatcher was that those of her Transport Secretaries who stayed in the job long enough built very good relationships with BR Chairmen, to the point of persuading her that BR can be trusted to keep control of costs and invest money wisely. That's what led in particular to a number of electrifications such as West Anglia, ECML, Colchester-Norwich, Carstairs-Edinburgh and Oxted-Uckfield. IC225s and various EMU/ DMU classes were also authorised. The notion that she was 'anti-railway' is not entirely accurate!
Great interview. Really informative.
Absolutely brilliant podcast.
The failure of the DfT and the RDG is shown in it's true colours.
The Sheffield to Cleethorpes via Brigg Line 1 round trip Monday to Friday service is in Link 1 at Northern Sheffield Traincrew, only a few drivers know this route
In a few weeks time the line will between Scunthorpe and Doncaster due to bridge works.
The Brigg Line is the diversionary route that TransPennine Express could take, they refuse to train their crew, bus replacement is easier.
Thanks for your comments - really appreciate the feedback and the kind words!
I can't believe that such a quality vlog has so few subscribers. You can't be anything other than political and Nigel and Richard are competent enough to balance the discussion and show us whats really going on.
That's so kind of you to say! We've haven't been going terribly long and we're leaning all the time - but if you can tell all your friends and colleagues about us and get them to subscribes as well, that would be splendid!
Very informative discussion, even to me as a life-long rail employee.
The rail industry is fortunate to have two main trade union leaders who are coherent as well as passionate about their job. The Two Micks have the gift of good communication which helps all but devoutly anti-rail members of the public understand the isues.
Through their arrogance and pig-headedness, government ministers obviously underestimated the RMT and ASLEF and don't seem to want to understand the realities of running a national rail service. The fact that the unions settled ages ago with empowered employers such as FOCs, Merseyrail, Scotrail, open access operators and TfW; and the fact that TOCs themselves have no wish to implement the hare-brained MSL Act, speaks volumes.
Glad you enjoyed the episode. Even as someone involved in the railways for a fairly long time now, I too found the discussion informative. Cheers. Richard
Just come back by air from Zurich to London, 120 passengers, 2drivers average salary £112, mainly fly by wire, guided flight, Plus4cabin staff. Got train to midlands, full, say 350 onboard. 1driver average salary £65 plus a train manager . Why the difference?
That's a very fair point when you put it like that! Cheers.
Brilliant this !! I'll share it to all that question the dispute
Thanks so much, really glad you enjoyed it. And yes, please share far and wide!
Brilliant pod as usual, Political? Yes but honest. I can't help but think the MSL's are like Maggie saying we will pass a bill that will let those that legally want to work, work. The intent was to destroy the miners, in a way they did as they close all the pits. Is the PM's intent to manage its decline? I want to use rail more than I do but last train back from Leeds 18:19 means I can't get home if I miss it. You answered my long ago question of using the S&C as a secondary route, so thank you. Great pod👍😊
Thanks - really appreciate the feedback.
For those who think this podcast was too political, let’s invite Harper and Merryman to offer an alternative view!
We might just do that!
Please do a piece of the Daily Telegraph’s recent ludicrous Saturday article on British Rail complete with 1980s sandwich tropes (days of full silver service on InterCity!) and illustrated with a “1940s strike”, photo which was actually 1970s scene of holidaymakers).
I'm not too surprised that Mr Whelan was given such an easy ride and opportunity to sound off on his numerous opinions and hobby horses, our presenters have made no secret of their allegiances. That said, I do find the series engaging even if I don't always agree.
Mick was spot on here, with everything. Every single time it feels as though it boils down to logic "common sense" even. At every step its clear he wants the railway to be run for the benefit of its users and for his membership. Perhaps his political commentaries are cheeky, but is he wrong?
It is definitely possible to be cheeky without being wrong!
Great podcast
Thanks, really glad you enjoyed it!
What is not understood is that if you are considering filling a vacancy or increase the compliment of drivers. Then, the recruitment process to fill those gaps is at least 12 months before you get the applicants in railway employment before their training starts. Training can take up to 12 months depending on the route spread and number of traction types at the depot.
A very fair point Chris that there are long lead times to skilled roles
This isn't just drivers, this is the whole railway system !
I think one inevitable 'time bomb' that was very clearly outlined is the very major problem of age profile and the mass retirements coming up. The last batch of 'secondmen / drivers assistants' are now coming to the end of their careers. There seems to be complete ignorance by the powers that be as the impact on training new drivers from scratch as that makes a dent in what dividends can be paid to shareholders of private railway companies. Excellent podcast and very enjoyable and informative
Thanks for the kind comments about the podcast. Glad to hear you enjoyed it. Yes, the age profile in the industry is incredibly concerning and there isn't currently a succession plan in place to replace those who will be leaving.
@@GreenSignals only discovered it by accident but watched this episode and subscribed immediately. Fully respect what Richard has done in his career and yes Virgin recruited and trained their required number of drivers for the VHF timetable (which I mostly compiled from the NR angle) and I don’t recall a train being cancelled due to a shortage of drivers, except at times of disruption. Virgin WC staff were very motivated indeed and morale was good. Since Avanti took over the services and morale have massively deteriorated and reliability is not good at all.
I think you’ll find she travelled from Victoria to Glynebourne for the opera quite regularly. Strangely she never travelled back by rail.
How interesting! Seems the Iron Lady travelled the Iron Road more than we thought! Richard
I'd love a German style fares reduction, but it's worth noting that earlier in the show it was mentioned that German railways are also struggling with debt, selling off acquisitions and have labour disputes. There might be a bit of a conflict between those positions.
I'm not sure a German style fares reduction would work anyway. But there are some really interesting pilots underway such as Scotland's abolition of peak fares (the final results of which we are really keen to see).
Also missing is that the government and DFT do not see the retirement profile across the industry. Which is an historic legacy.
I think it has been pointed out (via NSAR and others) but whether it's been taken notice of is an entirely different matter....
The Tories have always been anti - union . From the miners strike to the present day . We had dozens of separate
companies in the 1920s . The big four upto 1948 , BR up to privatisation ( under invested for decades) . Even George Stephenson envisioned a unified railway for the whole country. Will it happen under Labour ? It works in
bigger countries than the UK , if rail travel was made easier again , the people will have confidence to use the system again . Car travel is becoming intolerable due to congestion, the motorways used as freight routes , and too many lines were closed in the Beeching era . Cheers DaveH.Carnforth.
There's certainly plenty of perspectives on the subject David, but the one thing we can certainly agree on I'm sure is that if the number of vehicles registered on Britain's roads keeps rising at the same rate it has in the last 20 years, we are heading for a serious problem.
Surely if train drivers’ wages can only go up in return for improvements in “productivity”, and inflation doesn’t come into it, then passengers’ fare rises should only occur when the quality of rail travel increases? As such, with many timetables still reduced post-covid, the price of tickets should actually be going down.
A lack corporates knowledge re recommendation
Was put off by the ludicrous statement from motor mouth, 'Everyone in employment deserves a pay rise'. Only a militant trade unionist could say something so stupid. And then £65,000 a year for a job it only takes a year to train to do isn't enough, come off it do we look stupid.
I think his point was that in the light of significant inflation and cost of living increases over the last few years, real wages have been eroded whatever job you do and in whatever sector - assuming your basic wage has not risen at the same rate. Which is mathematically true. But we're pleased that the episode has generated a great deal of comment. That was certainly the intention.
“Only” 😅
Wether you earn £1000, £10,000 or £100,000 a year that is what people live to. And as such you feel the effects of inflation no matter how much you earn. That is where everyone deserves a raise comes from.
@@justincrawford7508 Oh do they, what if they aren't performing, what if their company/organisation can't afford it? 1970's trade unionism, we can blackmail our way to unrealistic pay rises no matter the inflationary pressures that puts on prices and the damage it puts on passenger numbers on the railways. It's just devil take the hind most. I'm a retired civil engineer who as is the way in construction had to move around for work so my pension comes out of several funds, one of which has taken a huge hit thanks to COVID and Mr Putin and consequently I have for the last 12 months I have had to take what is laughingly called a 'pension holiday', in practical terms a 15 % pay cut and through a period of high inflation. Good isn't it? Do I go on strike? Where do I picket? Does Mick care? Doubtful.
@@kimrennie5294 Indeed only a year, its laughable. It took me like any other engineer 4 years of academic study to degree level and 3 years of training under agreement before I could sit the exams at the ICE. Over the next 42 years of constant updating of my training both formal and on the job training through eras of little work when there where no pay rises or if you where unlucky pay cuts. Never got near £65,000 a year or its equivalent. Fortunately for everyone including Mick and his mates, professional engineers don't strike.
Just greedy aslef
An educated comment 😂😂😂
Now there’s somebody who hasn’t taken the time to watch the video. Perhaps do, you may learn something.