6 Year Review of Kinesis Advantage Keyboard
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- The Kinesis Advantage 2 with cherry mx red keys (the softest keys/ featured in video)
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The Kinesis Advantage 2 with cherry mx brown keys (firmer keys, more clicky)
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Featured Trackball
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super nice revew, the mouse looked hilarious but I can see how it can be alleviating, Awesome.
Very extensive review, thank you! I look forward to checking out your other videos.
An absolutely great video with lots of valuable information and experiences! :-) Thanks for posting!
Thank you for this video! I just bought a used one that looks pretty new for $250 on eBay. Seeing that you had used this for 6 years straight gives me the confidence that mine will be okay when it arrives 😊They seem pretty hard to ruin anyways.
I think this was the right decision to buy! I was going to get the Advantage360 but I can't wait until May 2022 (or late 2022 now with Kinesis latest's update) so figured this would be great to have and then spend the $449 for the new one at the end of the year so I can have two for home and office.
really enjoyed your video, i'm getting mine on friday. excited to try it out.
Great review. I appreciate the explanations of ulnar deviation, extension and pronation. I just purchased the Kinesis freestyle 2 since it meets my budget better being around 160 CAD with all the accessories. I hope it works out! Thanks!
i am debating getting the freestyle 2 or the advantage 2 or advantage 360
Dear Ergo Everything - I so enjoyed your down-to-earth, practical review that I've now signed up with TH-cam just to put in this word of praise. Thank you! (P.S. Any thoughts on the Kinesis Advantage 360?)
Awe, thank you! I have definitely thought at times it would be nice to have even more space between the hands, especially if you slouch back. Having split keyboards before though, it does take a lot more work to position them right, which can be frustrating. If I ever worked a computer job again I would probably buy the 360.
Fantastic review! I did the same: got the advantage 2 and then because of its height got a standing desk :) Still finding the perfect height for the desk is hard: keep the legs on the floor (not a big deal, fixable), leave room for thighs to cross, and most importantly a thick mouse pad to level the mouse with the keyboard (otherwise shoulder pain).
I wish for a deeper curve though. In the resting state, there is still pressure on my pinky and middle finger.
Very very VERY informative!
Amazing how your hands dont move at all. Also, genius on the mouse. When I saw it at the beginning of the video I could not imagine how you would use it.
Loved this and quite surprised you don't have more subscribers and likes. I got the Kinesis after seeing this review and now have an issue that I will post here in case anyone has advice.
The ver first thing I noticed (that I suspected from pictures) is a dealbreaker unless I find a workaround - pressing the Ctrl and Alt keys with my thumb requires me to either move my whole hand, or reach unnaturally, or "twist" my wrist (ulner deviation). The only thumb keys i can reach naturally are the first two (Bksp, Del on left, Enter, Spc on right). The Home, End, PgUp, PgDn are not frequently enough used and often have alternatives so don't care too much. But the Ctrl, Alt keys are key (haha) especially for a programmer and for an emacs user say.
Frankly, the one big advantage of non-ergo keyboards for me was that i could press the Ctrl keys with the side of my palm - but that causes other issues.
I know I can remap keys so am thinking of what I can do on that - and would love for suggestions from people who have run into this issue. Am also wondering - given that this Kinesis Advantage layout hasn't changed in decades - are my hands just smaller than most? my thumb shorter? or am i just not doing something right?
Thanks for any advice!
Awe, thank you! I am not a programmer, but I did take an intro to python class a few years back and I remember switching the left shift and backspace keys because I was getting "emacs pinky" or ulnar nerve pain. Using sticky keys is a lifesaver for that problem as well. Most of the thumb keys are inaccessible from home row, it's not just you. I can only reach the long keys personally. I don't know what the ideal layout for a programmer would be, but there are two backward slash keys on the board, two shift keys, and the delete key certainly does not need to keep it's spot. I hope you can find something that works for you, even if it's a different board :)
I can't reach ctrl + alt either. If you want to move the Ctrl and Alt buttons, there's the little "progm" button in the very top right that's incredibly easy to use to remap keys. You could simply move the ctrl and alt keys into the home and end spot.
Great video and you definitely opened my eyes to the ergonomics of my keyboard usage. Speaking of, can you share some resources on upping my keyboard shortcut game?
Yes I love keyboard shortcuts th-cam.com/play/PLg9FgIDFMHJTDFuuglLCO0qJ-daf31aYT.html
To fix the downside of the height i uses two ergo rest arms, they are very flexible and replace your chair rests in a very gentle way. So after not working on it for four years i am really happy to get it working again. Although the Ergo Rest is around 85 dollars each.
Thanks for sharing! I was debating between this one and the newer version. But the newer version is about 450-500$
This one that you are showing is 340 $ It’s still pricey but im willing to get this one! I think it looks cool! Haha. I love the look.
Six years of use!! Now THAT'S a review.
To properly take advantage (hehe) of this keyboard, you need a keyboard tray that you attach under the desk. Most of the good enough ones have adjustable height and angle to help find the best position. You can then sit at your comfortable height and type away pain free.
This. A fully adjustable keyboard tray is a wonderful addition to an ergonomic solution. Get the exact best height and angle for your sitting situation (I use a quality kneeling chair) and when you’re done you can slide keyboard & mouse under the desk where kitty won’t be messing with them. ;)
I have thoroughly enjoyed the Advantage QD (Dvorak switchable model with dual key legends) for the last ten years. I wish the switches were smoother along the travel with stronger tactility, but I'm a fan of buckling spring Model M's. The rubber escape and function keys are the weak point (though the Advantage 2 supposedly fixes this). It's disappointing to see that whole row eliminated on the upcoming 360 model. Love the hardware Dvorak support which works well with their layout.
There are Dactyl style keybords that compensate for the length of your pinky. You can even have them custom tailored to fit your hand shape. But most are diy.
They're coming out with a new model by the end of 2021, fully split where you have the option to put a mouse in between the 2 parts Kinesis 360. Btw If you're into ergonomic use Colemak DH split version, DH is a colemak specially designed for split and feels extremely comfortable, compared to QWERTY it's really night and day. Qwerty is really trash and it gave me so much issues when typing for extended amount of times, with Colemak DH all is good.
Wow, it looks so pretty! My trackball is certainly a little too high to be in the best ergonomic position, so this will be a great option. Not that I will spend the money on it. I mostly use voice recognition nowadays. Wish we would switch kids over to learning Dvorak but alas we can't even switch to the metric system.
@@ergoeverything5673 Dvorak is not nearly as good as the Colemak layout... and Colemak DH is a huge improvement (with the wide mod, or split) over regular Colemak. Used both versions. For split keyboard Colemak DH should be a no brainer since it's made for the ortholinear layout since there were some issues with regular Colemak on ortho. I used Colemak DH on a regular keyboard with a extra row in the middle to place my hands slightly further apart so there's less ulnar deviation and it will be an easy transition once I got a slit ortho, and besides that it's also way more comfy than regular Colemak even on a regular keyboard. The slight tweaks feel way more comfortable having to reach less for frequently pressed letters locking your wrist more.
@@mdeboer563 Have you tried Colemak DH on this keyboard?
How long did it take to change over, and does your memory of QWERTY fade?
@@RichestTea Not not this keyboard but DH (wide mod) is a huge improvement even on a regular keyboard over regular Colemak which is already a huge improvement on QWERTY. And yes I lost my QWERTY memory in no time, and most people get up to decent speeds after like 3 months. Some do 40 WPM in 1 month some 100 in 3, for me it took like 6 months to reach 100 with just normal use and training from time to time. And for splits DH is even better since it's designed for it, if you are interested join the Colemak server for more info and people can help you with the right software etc. And when switching to an alt layout give it at least 3 month's, every new layout is uncomfortable at 1st due to lack of muscle memory.
Hey. Where have they said end of 2021 release date? This looks great!
cool. I bought that mouse. I really love my Advantage.
ErgoEverything, I really love my Advantage and will love it more when I finish my learning curve. I have a question about that mouse. People warn against getting this marble mouse because it doesn't have a scroll mechanism. I am curious how you feel about that. I purchased an MX Ergo which is probably a lot taller that the one you have and it isn't ambidextrous per se but I can actually use it with both hands. It does have a scroll function. I am in my return period and was going to for sure exchange it for the marble mouse shown in your video with but then I realized there was no scroll function on it and I love the scroll funtion on the Ergo. Do you just use the one on the keyboard right thumb? Also, how is the track ball marble on this particular mouse? Is it accurate? Smooth and slick?
Yes, it's smooth lovely and very precise, I don't feel like you have to buy an expensive trackball to get good quality.. The lack of a scroll function does not bother me because I use surfing keys to scroll on the web, which is the biggest area I need scrolling functionality, see th-cam.com/video/jhYiEXKmNpU/w-d-xo.html. On other applications I just use the arrow keys or page up and page down, but if that is not satisfactory for you it may not be the right fit.
I have it set up such that when holding the little left button the ball makes it scroll. So you just a need a little piece of software and you're good to go. I use a Hammerspoon script on Mac OS.
The Kinesis Advantage 2 is my dream keyboard. My both hands start to suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome despite I already try to make my desk setup as ergonomic as possible. Hope someday can afford it, because I have to import it to my country and it will be so pricey. Thanks for this video!
Ergonomics are valuable, but don't forget to heal your RSI! I don't have carpal tunnel specifically (and it's a common misdiagnosis), but make sure your working towards healing :)
@@ergoeverything5673 Thank you very much 🙏🏻🇮🇩
loved your review and your style. really useful and I no longer have any regrets buying mine - just got mine. I wish you could talk about how long you had to learn to use the keyboard? I'm having such a tough time that I'm now using The dictate feature in Outlook. And most Microsoft products. But it's slow going typing on this keyboard. I wonder how long you took to master this keyboard. Thank you.
Thank you! It took me about 3 months to master. Most of that was just learning to type softly, without "bottoming out", to get the most ergo benefit, but it only took a couple of weeks to get used to the layout. With new ergonomics you often just have to force yourself to use them at work, even though it's frustrating, and will temporarily decrease productivity.
Thank u. I’m going to get that track ball. Makes sense. Any tips on how to make it stick to the keyboard. Thx
I would use Velcro so you can take it off and on. Be sure to check out surfing keys which is a free browser extension that helps you not need the mouse th-cam.com/video/jhYiEXKmNpU/w-d-xo.html
Pinky problem can be solved by adjusting column stagger. I struggle with this too.
There's a pragmatic keyboard called dactyl maybe you should check it out. or ergogen
Are you ever planning on trying out the Datahand (first or second edition) / Lalboard? Seems to me to be the most ergonomic keyboard, at least on paper.
Regarding your RSI, have you tried getting a forearm massager (tiger balm is a good addition too)? It did wonders for me along with forearm stretches.
Also curious what your thoughts are on upcoming consumer BCI technology? Facebook recently announced that they'd canceled their non-invasive BCI typing device they announced back in 2017, but given the progress I've seen from Kernel (they have the neuroimaging capabilities of fMRI), I wouldn't be surprised if we see that application (along with mouse control) when they hit the consumer market 6-8 years from now. Lastly I wonder if Neuralink's N1 chips will eventually be made available to those with chronic RSI, and how many would be interested in such an invasive (however efficient) solution
I love the questions!
I would love to discuss the datahand at some point, but they discontinued it a long time ago, so I'm never going to try it out. I actually question whether it would be a good ergonomic option because our fingers don't seem to be designed to move back and forth the way the data hand requires.
As far as treating RSI. That is something I'm diving into deeply right now, but certainly don't feel educated enough to comment on. I recently got two books one on trigger point massage, and one on stretching for RSI. So far I'm having absolutely incredible results, but it's only been one week and I maintain a level of skepticism.
This is the first I'm hearing about the BCI brain typing thing, but I'm excited to look into it more. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!
@@ergoeverything5673 That's why I mentioned the Lalboard as it's open source. Given that it's open source you'll have to build it yourself, but point being if you really want a Datahand, it's not like it's beyond all reach (even if not easy to reach).
Regarding RSI massage, it was a night & day difference for me (after years it had gotten to the point for me where my fingers especially the pinky was locking closed), however just know that while it may relieve the underlying mechanisms causing like for example carpal tunnel syndrome, it will not immediately fix the actual damage done, you still need time to heal (although now you'll finally be *able* to heal). There are however some gentle massage techniques that can be done directly on the wrists & hands that can increase blood flow to the area an speed up the healing process, but tension in the forearms is the fundamental issue that has to be dealt with. Look into the Arm Aid as well as Tiger balm.
It's something to do with repetitive micro-movements in a tensed muscle area that (save for our cardiac tissue) our bodies are simply not built to deal with. RSI is a fascinating example of the unforeseen maladies of living in our artificially constructed environment, kinda like that optical illusion where two lines will appear to be longer or shorter depending on whether the lines either have inwards or outwards facing arrows connected to the ends of each line, this only effects people who've grown up in our modern world full of straight lines & right angles.
There is also the Azeron Cyborg, that seems pretty interesting. Instead of having a lot of left-right motions, it has press, up, down, and also knuckle up/down buttons. Plus built-in pointer stuff on the thumb. You'd have to buy two for use with both hands (its main aim is for gaming where you'd use it on one hand and a mouse on the other hand), but has interesting possibilities.
May I ask if you still recommend this in 2022? Your explanation on this keyboard relating to the science of wrist ergonomics is so much useful and rare.
Thank you so much for the kind words Maximus. Yes, I still recommend this keyboard, because I really swear by the keywells. However, the dactyl keyboard, also has keywells, and is now available premade (used to only be available in kits you had to solder together). I don't have any personal experience with it, but assume it would be really comparable.
@@ergoeverything5673 thank you for your kind help. I will look into that too. I hope you will someday be able to review that too. It seems it's very comparable minus the height of Kinesis Advantage.
Pros: Awesomeness.
Cons: None.
Got it. I'm interested in this stuff for like 15+ years. Looks sick as well, induces the me want relay badly.
I think if I saw your review before, I would have gotten this one instead of a zsa moonlander (I still plan on getting an Advantage later on) . I have exaaactly the same issue you’re mentioning with my moonlander. Also when using the trackball, you do it mostly for ergonomics or is there some other reason?
Yes, it is for ergonomics, however, I don't feel like any Mouse in existence is properly ergonomic. I mostly use voice computer for mousing, which is voice recognition software.
@foursixnine which one would you suggest to someone transitioning from standard keyboard to ergo keyboard? moonlander or advantage
@@chaitanya-varu Moonlander, zero regrets, the advantage is a bit strange if its gonna be your first ortholinear keyboard.
wow，what's interesting and practical combination，i have this keyboard and really really want to try this combination。but i have a question ,how do you fix the mouse and the keybaord together ?thx
I just used double sided foam tape that you can find at a craft store :)
ErgoEverything, on this same line, people say this mouse sucks because it doesn't have a scroll mechanism. I am curious how you feel about that. I purchased an MX Ergo which seems a lot taller that the one you have and it isn't ambidextrous per se but I can actually use it with both hands. It does have a scroll function. I am in my return period and was absolutely going to exchange it for the one you have without a doubt but then I realized there was no scroll function on it and I love the one on the Ergo. Do you just use the one on the keyboard right thumb? Also, how is the track ball marble? Is it accurate? Smooth and slick?
@@CMBdecipleofChrist It does have scroll buttons, the small ones at the top of the larger buttons. Otherwise the Kensington Orbit is available with a scroll ring, which is nicely ambidextrous too. I find I frequently use keyboard controls for scrolling anyhow. Tracking and motion is fine on the marble in my experience.
Is this keyboard customizable? Like, i can swap the Backspace key with the Space key to get a more confortable experience at playing games?
Hi there. I’m just beginning my RSI journey. What besides this keyboard have you found really helps? You mentioned a couple books for stretches and massages. Have those panned out? What has really helped you?
Also ty for the review! Really well done.
I should delete the stretching video didn't really help, but massage and working on posture with a PT helped. Keyboard shortcuts and surfing keys helped. Gabapentin helped. Still in a shit place though 🤷
Sorry to hear that and thanks for the reply.
I’ve been researching Dr. Sarno. Have you looked him up? There’s a good lecture that has a few great points and I’m skeptical but a lot of it makes sense.
The lecture I’m thinking of is a google lecture and then there’s also a documentary with him. Lots of success stories too of people like 20 years down the line from us who have had vertebra fused, seen tons of doctors, etc and ultimately realized it was a mind body thing.
Ya, I've heard of doctor sarno. Kind of impossible not to with RSI. I have one of his books.
At 7:49, what is the black rectangle that you are connecting to the usb cables from the keyboard and trackball?
Just a USB hub.
Yea this and the moonlander were what I was looking at when I was considering the switch from a plank to a split keyboard. What do you think about the moonlander?
Having a split keyboard with mechanical keys is a big win, but personally I think the key Wells in the kinesis are essential, because they allow your palm to rest on the keyboard, as opposed to resting your wrist or hovering your hand over the keyboard. There's only one other company that makes keyboards with key Wells, but they're twice as expensive, so I really only recommend the kinesis.
@@ergoeverything5673 Is it Maltron you're refusing to mention? Another option is a Dactyl Manuform keyboard (not mass produced, but maybe worth it). Not everyone needs the exact same things; I'm doing pretty well with tented UHK with its wooden rests personally.
@LoneTech, Maltron is the name. To be fair they probably came up with the design first, but they're uglier and more expensive. If you have to build the keyboard yourself I don't really see it as a real option. It's just not accessible or realistic to recommend.
@@ergoeverything5673 You don't have to build it yourself; there are people offering that service, but it takes a lot of time. To me, the problem with Maltron isn't that they're ugly, it's that the construction quality just isn't acceptable. I'm grateful people like Chyrosran have demonstrated this.
I'll mention this on a top-level comment too, but I'm excited about the Glove80 whose kickstarter is happening at the end of the month. It is a wireless split ergo keyboard that they say is designed specifically to address issues they had with the Kinesis Advantage. Has keywells, but a lower profile with flatter keycaps, more ergonomic thumb keys, more pronounced adjustment for pinkies, etc. I tried getting an Advantage but the combo of it being so bulky and the software being hard to use compared to a Moonlander, made me return it. I'm hoping the Glove80 will be just what I've been looking for.
That's a fantastic microphone, what is it called?
I think speachwear is the company. They make mikes for speach recognition.
My issue is pain where the muscle 'belly' for thumb is. No idea what it is as i dont have numness or tingling. It just burns ....
Nerve damage can express itself many ways; I had burning on the back of the hand, and the primary aid was palm rests and tenting. You might also want to consider something that lets your thumb hang down a bit, like the ZSA Moonlander. Not sure what will help, but you do want to change something!
I have a question. My number key pad isn’t working. Do you know how that can be fixed. I clicked on the key pad and the light Lits up but the numbers don’t work. Has that ever happened to you?
I feel like you might be trolling me because I mention it in the video, but try the number lock. When switched into into keypad mode, the 7 (above 'U') acts as the numblock. Easy to hit of you forget your in keypad mode.
@@ergoeverything5673 no sorry I was just panicking here thinking I had to return my keyboard. Which I completely love and didn’t want to return it back! Plus I saw like 10 videos and went back to 2 of the videos to ask this question. Forgot who said what lol thank you.
They just need to make it light up and RGB it for the Advantage 3.0 version
What’s with everyone needing rainbow Color’s these days.. it’s a fucking keyboard bro, look at the monitor.
@@reef6826 i dont get it either i never look at my keyboard
We got Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB lol
i just got mine i Type slow
Very expensive keyboard. However, splitting the keys in the way that it looks, also removes that angle your hands and arms are in on a "normal" keyboard.
dactyl manuform
Hmmm. Isn’t the mouse doing the opposite of what the keyboard tries to accomplish? You are basically closing in, instead of opening. The mouse would not make you be that far apart, at least theoretically.
Weirdly enough that is not a problem. To type your fingers must face forward, causing you to crank the wrist, but for the mouse it's fine if my fingers are pointing towards each other so the wrists stay straight. You could argue that there is shoulder rotation, but it's pretty minimal, and I advocate for using keyboard shortcuts primarily.
i dont like how you use the mouse, looks very time consuming with both hands off the board just to manage the mouse . i myself use a kensington expert mouse , its right next to my board with no space in between , and is a very easy to control mouse , use my right hand only . dont even have to lift my hand just swipe to the right to access it. maybe something to think about.
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Useful information interrupted by more ums that are very distracting: you have more ums than you have ends of sentences.
Get a life.