I would totally be interested in a video exploring the "What if the Met was taken over by the GWR" question. It would be interesting to see if the service would be better, worse or just "different".
I spend a lot of time watching 'Alternative History Hub' (it's actually called 'Alternate History Hub', but since I don't understand how history can alternate, I'm presumptively correcting the name of the channel), and it'd be fun to see the Jugo version.
A remnant of this is the Hammersmith & City Line, originally a branch of the GWR. Even in to the early electric era, the trains were jointly owned by the Met & GWR. (Some Northern and Central Line trains were jointly owned with the LNER as part of the arrangments for extending those lines to High Barnet and Epping in the 1940s)
So basically... Jago: Could you take the Metropolitan Line to Windsor? Metropolitan Railway: *Well yes but actually no* Love a grand station like this one at 2:57, the feeling of entering a time capsule when you go to these huge terminals is unparalleled.
Yes, please - it would be interesting to explore what might have happened if the GWR had owned the 'Met'; one question is of gauge - how much of the Met/Hammersmith & City was built with mixed gauge tracks? Would the GWR have taken out the extra rail enabling standard gauge companies to use the Met tracks?
Well, the Gauge War happened, and Great Western converted their 2000 mm Gauge to Standard Gauge. So, you should prepare another What if where Great Western won the war or the Gauge War didn't happen.
If anything this gives me the idea of building my own private metro line from the city to my palace. I mean if there can be a line going to Windsor, then I deserve to have one
I would be fascinated to find out what the tube map would look like if history had taken a different route (pun not intended). I've been watching this channel for very long time, and I have yet to see anything that could be construed at "self-indulgent", except for the fact that you pander to your not-so secret love of all-things trains. Please continue.
High Wycombe on the Met line ? That would have made the commuting days a bit easier, seeing I live in Wycombe. Just a random thought, there used to be a service, only on Friday Paddington to Manchester the 17.08, which used to run, first stop to High Wycombe, that was pretty impressive as nothing has ever run fast to Wycombe, it has to stop at Wembley stadium and randomly between there and Beaconsfield, there used to a fast line through Gerrards Cross to pass the stopping trains. As we used to joke you know you on a slow one if if stops at Sudbury and Harrow Road. The joys of commuting
When did a 1708 run Friday only to Manchester? I remember well the 1812 daily to Birmingham, and consider the gradual rundown of Paddington to Northolt to be pure vandalism. Don't get me wrong I am grateful that we now have such services from Marylebone, but the direct route from Paddington would be shorter and faster.
Another great video Jago, I'd love to see a video on tube lines that used have mainline services, so for example the epping line and hainult loop but also things like the GWR services into the city. I think that would be quite interesting
Yes please..there are several “what ifs?” Including what if the met and district had merged? What if the met had eg joined with the LNER, as apparently they wanted to avoid becoming a part of the LPTB?
Another 'What if'' would involve the never-completed merger of the Metropolitan and District. If the District could run to Windsor, then a merged company could also run along the disused NW chord line at Hammersmith and into the City along the Hammersmith and City line.
Imagine during this merger it would be common to see a gwr train on the Wimbledon branch line or a metropolitan line train on the Hounslow west branch line or the Ealing Broadway branch
Huh. I was under the impression that in the modern tube, the district (green) was the only line that currently goes out to Windsor. I'm not mistaken am I?
No Underground lines make it to Windsor. GWR and SWR mainline trains do. As it stands, the District doesn’t go beyond Richmond, and the only Underground line to get outside of Greater London to the west is the Metropolitan (to Chesham and Amersham, as well as Watford to the North). The Elizabeth Line will eventually link up half of Berkshire to the broader TfL ecosystem, but at the moment you have to change at Paddington, and it doesn’t actually go to Windsor in any case (only Slough).
Excellent. Years of reading about the MR/GWR relationship (and MR/DR to some degree) and never *quite* understanding how it worked fully between the two in those early years, fixed in 7 minutes. Keep it up!
Hey Jago, could you do a video summarising which major railway companies was involved in the creation and running of which lines? You have already made videos going into the details with a lot of them, but I would really like a summary showing the greater picture.
if the GWR had owned the Met what incentive would it have had to develop what eventually became the Circle Line? Even the Met felt obliged to shuffle off the challenge to a related, but financially and legally separate company, the Metropolitan District Railway - with whom its relationship soon proved to be anything but fraternal.
About 60 years ago I was told that the original plan was for the Metropolitan Railway to connect to Liverpool Street in a similar way to its connection at Paddington. This was to allow Royal Trains to go all the way from Windsor to Sandringham.
@@JP_TaVeryMuch Yes, it went across the concourse at Liverpool Street mainline station. A similar one at Waterloo too. I've been on the link at Kings Cross - that lasted much longer.
"I'd like to give thanks as ever to my donors on Ko-Fi and Patreon, you are the electric locomotive to my Windsor train" - does that mean they don't exist? :P
A "what if the GWR had taken over the Met?" video sounds great. Could be the start of a whole "what if...?" series. For example "what if the formation of British Railways in 1948 had included the underground too?" Or "What if Yerkes had never left the USA?"
Do that what if video! You know you want to 😉 I have a few what if ideas myself. 1: What if the Metropolitan line stayed independent 2: Thameslink was owned by the Tube/TfL 3: What if CrossRail opened under Network South East 4: What if Trams and Trolleybuses in London survived? What sort of network would we see today? Would the trams and trolleybuses be to South London what the tube is to North London?
Hiya - @ between 1:38 & 2:03 I thought I had a dirty monitor b/c I saw a 'drip' on the screen - so I was about to go & get a cloth to wipe it clean - but then you changed shots & the 'drip' disappeared - so then I figured it must have been on your camera!!! 😄Interesting & confusing video b. t. w.!!! 🙂🚂🚂🚂
As usual, very informative and very well presented, I for one would indeed like to see a video as you describe about the very question you pose please, in fact any question surrounding the if's and maybe's of the underground network. What we have is what happened, but what if what we have hadn't happened at all and something else did? There must be a plethora of possibilities. Thanks again.
I love your videos the more the better 😍 I subscribe to a fair few on TH-cam, but you are definitely the best. So go along make lots of them I for one will be watching.
Thought your video was about something else so why I watched it from start to end I don't know. I was surprised to see how clean everything was. Thumbs up on the video and thumbs up on who's ever in charge of sweeping up.
I finally found this channel again. I used to listen to your videos while moving, it was a relatively romantic time looking back. In the back of my head I remembered your channel having a unique name but I couldn't quite place it (chaos hazard? jaggard hazzard?), the uniqueness of your name only made you easier to find in the end. it's good to be back.
The spot of water (or whatever) dripping down the glass in front of the camera 1:42 into the video caused a funny moment here. The pollen and dust are rather brutal here and I've been sneezing a lot. As a live-streamer, I spend a lot of time in front of the computer screen and there have been a few sneezes lately. Looking up at just the right moment while watching my weekly Jago Hazzard video, I saw the -whatever it is- drooling down the screen and thought I needed to clean the monitor. I didn't.
What about if Sir Edward Watkins desires had come to fruition? You'd have Manchester to Paris trains between Baker Street and south of Moorgate. Can you imagine a steam train running through a Victorian Channel Tunnel?
Watkin's tunnelers actually dug over a mile of 7 foot wide tunnel in 1881-2 under the Channel out from Shakespeare Cliff between Dover and Folkestone towards France and from Sangatte near Calais a mile towards England. It was stopped by the British government due to defence concerns. I presume they intended to use steam trains, perhaps with some kind of condensing apparatus, as used with mixed success on the Metropolitan Railway locomotives. But electric traction might have been in their minds, the first electric railway having been demonstrated by Seimens in Berlin in 1879, and Volk's Electric Railway at Brighton was being built, opening in 1883.
Hell yes!!! I would watch it avidly. I love what if stories and my favourite Jago telling the tale of mystery and intrigue would not only be the Glacé Cherry on top, It would be a whole pile of messy whipped cream with 2 cherries and a flake 😋
@@norbitonflyer5625 Thanks. Yes, and there is no physical connection from the Wycombe line to the Met. I was surprised the DMUs had route clearance to Baker Street. It would be interesting to see any pictures of this, if anyone has a link.
Jago, can you do some of the What If series? 1. What if Great Western fully bought out Metropolitan? 2. What if Metropolitan and District didn't had conflict and merged completely before Yerkes bought District? 3. What if Watkins' railway mania was successful? Can we get direct trains from Midlands to Paris? 4. What if Metropolitan was not absorbed into London Transport? 5. What if services to Windsor, Southend, Verney Junction and Brill weren't closed? 6. What if UERL and London Transport didn't formed?
Shame they ended the arrangement of mainline trains running over Metro tracks. Tokyo's railways took a number of pages from GWR's book so now their commuter trains, once reaching the edge of the core of Tokyo metropolis, run through the Tokyo Metros' lines to the other side, in some places continuing on to a third company's lines. And it's not just commuter trains, there's also intercity trains (e.g. the Romancecar) and inter-airport trains (between Haneda and Narita) on the same sets of track. But wait, there's more! They all run a multitude of service patterns as well, from local service to super duper commuter express!
Thanks as ever Jago, fascinating. I've often wondered about the thinking behind the construction of the long, and somewhat unusual subway from South Kensington Station to beneath Exhibition Road. Was it ever intended to be more than a pedestrian passageway, and if so, why there?
Great video mate. Honestly I really wish it did come to Windsor. I live in Windsor and the train services could be so much better. Obviously from WNR we have the SWR going to Waterloo, and the GWR to Slough from WNC (one train every 20 mins!!). As a regular London Underground user, the annoyingly limited train services nearby mean I usually have to drive to Slough and take the Elizabeth Line, mainly because if I took the train to slough, it would mean having to drive into the town centre, which is notorious for its busy parking lots. I would be more inclined to partake in this tedious parking kerfuffle if the Tube ran directly into Windsor! (Edit): It would be very possible to extend the tube into Windsor. Say if the Central or District Lines at Ealing Broadway were extended, then taking the same westbound route as the Elizabeth Line towards Reading, but instead when it reaches go towards WNC. However I do understand that this would be (quite!) a task to complete, as Windsor and Eton Central has just one platform. But hey, if the District Line did come all the way round here in the past, maybe it might work? Maybe?
At 5:40, a good juxtaposition of "Railway-ish services" with a building clearly signed as "Metropoplitan Railway / Parcels Office"...it doesn't get much more "railway-ish" than hauling freight! :)
Am I correct in saying that rail track used to connect Farringdon with Mainline GWR is what the Elizabeth line plans to use today? Would feel fitting to extend the Lizzy line to Lizzy's home address don't you think?
No, they built a new railway. However it would be possible for the Elizabeth Line to serve Windsor, if they could negotiate crossing the fast lines OK at Slough. And electrifying the Windsor branch. I'm sure Her Maj. would be pleased.
He tried to and nearly killed himself in the process. Get with the program! I bet you’re always late and miss your trains! Actually late for everything!
I find it really interesting that the Met basically pioneered the idea of farther afield mainline railway services using a tunnel with rapid transit service in a city centre, and…Thameslink and the Elizabeth line basically “rediscovered” that innovation.
I'd like to see a video exploring the Great Central Railway (Well, what's left of it!), and, if it was still fully operational, whether it would be a good alternative to HS2 - with a few upgrades here and there.
There is a “Rediscovering Lost Railways” documentary on the GCR that looks at what’s left of it. As for being an alternative to HS2, not really. Too much of the route has been built upon since it was abandoned. HS2 actually uses part of the GCR’s former route near the intersection with EWR.
@@AFCManUk imagine if they had electrified the line down to Marylebone whilst they built the new Woodhead tunnel, and seeing the EM2s( class 77) running with the Met line ..
@@AFCManUk In some ways it would be, I think it would be a good express line alternative to the MML and would provide useful freight capacity. It could at least partly do the job for the eastern HS2 branch, but since it doesn't go to Birmingham or Manchester I don't think it would be able to do the job of much of HS2.
If the Victorian railway companies had been less aggresive toward each other then I believe the Met & the District could easily have remained part of national rail rather then London Underground & we would have had more cross London rail services. But then again, that ignores the trams which hugely undermined many commuter lines in London as they were cheaper.. Hindsight is always a great thing..
I was so early for the video Geoff Marshall uploaded yesterday that TH-cam claimed it had 12 likes and 1 view. After I'd watched it, TH-cam updated the view count to over 1000 which seems more realistic.
Wonderful shot of 2999 Lady of Legend. Strictly speaking, not only is she not a 19th century engine but is in fact- arguably at least- an entirely new one 😃 Of course, she has lots of component parts primarily from Maindy Hall (as I am sure you well know 😉) but hey, in a video about a moot point it sits right at home 😉 When you say about services from Liverpool Street, I wonder if these were among the first to utilise the now long gone platform 3 in the Sub-surface station, which you could still see the connection to in the 70s and early 80s (if you were a nerd enough to notice that sort of thing) even though I think the actual platform had been boarded up by then after they stopped using it in the late 60s or early 70s. I think that also might have been because of the remodelling of Aldgate so they could use it as the terminus for the Wembley bound services. I can’t be fagged to look it up right now as I need a cuppa, but I think the Aldgate/Liverpool Street remodelling, etc would be an excellent video 🤔 Of course, if you have already done one…er…it was excellent and I really enjoyed it 😜 Speaking of new videos, I thing a speculative video about how another railway company might have done things differently as a result of theories based upon little more than pure conjecture would be an excellent idea 💡 There is nothing I like more than a self indulgent drift into whatifism 🤓 I personally like the idea that at one time I could have theoretically got on a through coach on the front of a train at Chalkwell, changed engines at East Ham, got taken through to Paddington and coupled up to a train straight to Ceredigion for a lovely holiday on the west coast of Wales 🤷🏻♂️ Iechyd dda! 👍🍀🍻
I believe that these tales prove that railways or mass transit systems are only ever successful when they are Nationalised since profits are so slim. It is easily forgotten that cheap mass transit for people is the priority, profit is gained elsewhere in the greater economy, these transport systems given over completely to commercial business will always be at the mercy of "profit" thus never providing a successful service to the people.
I misread the title as being in present tense. I was very confused at the start of the video when you said you needed to look it up. My best guess was that maybe there was some sort of overflow maintenance depot in Windsor that Metropolitan line rolling stock could theoretically be sent to, and you could theoretically stow away upon a train going that way, so naturally the actual grounded video was inevitably not as exciting as theorycrafting how one could ride the “Metropolitan line” to Windsor. But the idea of direct trains from Reading to Liverpool Street is very… oh hang on, I’m just being told those are planned…
Interesting that TFL has expunged all mention of the H & C station at Paddington being Platforms 15 and 16. They also convince hapless tourists that the H & C is a convenient interchange for the other lines. The lift is often fully occupied in transporting fully laden tourists to the only meaningful interchange: the taxi rank, which is more than the central section of The Elizabeth Line can do. However, more often than not, it is not a taxi that they want. They may want the Bakerloo or District. Well, I wish them luck.
0:45 Oh yeah! Just coming back to this video I realised that since this station is the most local to me, this is the big “windsor & eton central” box near the train replica. I go to this station often, so i recognise it.
Whether the Metropolitan Railway is an Underground Line is also a matter for discussion. Conceptually, I don't see it being much different to the Northern City Line. Different power supply, different colour of trains, and funded from a different budget, but none of those factors make it an Underground.
The original section between Bishop's Road and Farringdon Street was almost entirely underground in both the sense of being in a tunnel and being at a lower elevation than the streets. It differs from the Northern City line by being constructed by the cut and cover method, while the Northern City uses a pair of shield-driven deep level tubes between Moorgate and Drayton Park, reaching the surface south of Finsbury Park. The Met later expanded, mostly via the surface. The Northern City still only exists between Moorgate and Finsbury Park, though the current services extend beyond Finsbury Park on other tracks.
If London Overground had been a thing many years ago instead of comparatively recently, would the Met not have been a major part of it instead of the Tube?
@@davidemmott6225 The Metropolitan Railway was absorbed by the London Passenger Transport Board, which pre-dates nationalisation. So the Metropolitan line has been part of London Underground for as long as the latter has existed, therefore there has never been any scope for it to be a part of London Overground. "The Tube" is just a colloquialism and has no real definition. You could no doubt argue that subsurface lines ought to be transferred to London Overground because the name is more appropriate but what would that achieve, when both are parts of TfL anyway? The Metropolitan Railway remained independent at the time of railway Grouping in 1923. If it had become part of the LNER and then part of British Rail then it could possibly have transferred to London Overground in recent years but there's no time when London Overground could have existed before the merger with LPTB.
@@johnm2012 Sure, and the Metropolitan Railway included the Northern City Line at the time, and it was later transferred to British Rail/Network South East, and also the East London Line, which was later transferred to the Overground, and the Widened Lines which is now used by Thameslink.
If the definition for "an underground service" is that it runs over LU tracks, does that mean the random SWR service that goes via the District Line is technically an underground service?
@@SportyMabamba 'yes' and 'no' is the answer I think. At privatisation I understand the ownership of the line was transferred to LU, but the signalling system remains under Network Rail (as is) control. But I may be wrong.
Sounds like today's through-running agreements between many Tokyo commuter railways and adjacent Tokyo Underground lines. You really can get to countless places beyond the actual line you're on from many Tokyo Metro stops. Sometimes Metro trains are also extended onto the commuter railways. The way it's usually classified is by who is operating the service. So if it's a metro train extended onto the main line it's still a Metro train all the way, but if it's a commuter train entering a Metro line it remains a train from that particular railway company and _their_ line. In that sense, I'd answer the question in the video title with a "no" - you couldn't take "the Metropolitan Line" to Windsor, but you _could_ take GWR trains from a Metropolitan Line station to get there. But that's just my opinion! It's certainly a fascinating dilemma to ponder.
The biggest what-if for me with the Underground is if Morgan has beaten Yerkes rather that the other way round. The Morgan tube routes cover some places still without coverage today.
As someone who doesn't live in London, but here in Norfolk i do fine these videos really fascinating. Its good to see how the underground was before it became what it is today.
@British Film Guy This is a bit random but I'll say it anyway. If you're in Norfolk you're not too far from Suffolk, and Ipswich. Did you know that Ipswich once had an underground train network? Honest! It really did! And the front of Burton's opposite the town hall was one of the stations. I didn't believe it either when I first heard the story, but it's true.
@@aprilsmith1166 really, never knew that must of been a pleasant surprise when you heard about it. Here in Norfolk the only thing remotely popular way back then was a fairly big tram network back in the early 1900's mainly across Norwich but still..
Maybe I’m a tech nerd rather then a business nerd, but to me an Underground Line is one that has trains and other equipment specifically designed to run in the conditions found underground. As you mentioned the Metropolitan had steam trains designed to run in its tunnels, and later electrification makes clear what an underground line is, if neither sort of train ran to Windsor then no underground line ran to Windsor.
Would love a what if video for the GWR owning the met. Do the points still exist as a possibel diversion for the new Liz line to reach the city from the west?
The original GWR didn't run suburban services at all. The first station out of Paddington was Slough (and that only a village then) so I am surprised no other Company tried it earlier. PS Wolmar knows his stuff.
Ealing was the first station out of London in 1840. Had about 6 trains stop there a day. Slough was though the first stop for the trains that went the full distance, at that time Farringdon Road.
I reckon that if GWR had control of the Met line then it might have expanded and 4 tracked sections to provide express and goods services services across London and Crossrail would never be needed.
Don't think of your videos as self-indulgent. The more esoteric they are the better we like 'em. Take it to the limit, Jago.
Ha ha 👍🏻
Many thanks to Jago for yet another interesting “train of thought.” Jago’s videos are a “transport of delight” into railway history.
Sometimes you have to read between the lines.
I would totally be interested in a video exploring the "What if the Met was taken over by the GWR" question. It would be interesting to see if the service would be better, worse or just "different".
I'd say different, too many things to take into account to really say "better" or "worse"
I spend a lot of time watching 'Alternative History Hub' (it's actually called 'Alternate History Hub', but since I don't understand how history can alternate, I'm presumptively correcting the name of the channel), and it'd be fun to see the Jugo version.
@@nomadMik Alternate means the same thing as Alternative.
A remnant of this is the Hammersmith & City Line, originally a branch of the GWR. Even in to the early electric era, the trains were jointly owned by the Met & GWR. (Some Northern and Central Line trains were jointly owned with the LNER as part of the arrangments for extending those lines to High Barnet and Epping in the 1940s)
So basically...
Jago: Could you take the Metropolitan Line to Windsor?
Metropolitan Railway: *Well yes but actually no*
Love a grand station like this one at 2:57, the feeling of entering a time capsule when you go to these huge terminals is unparalleled.
Yes, please - it would be interesting to explore what might have happened if the GWR had owned the 'Met'; one question is of gauge - how much of the Met/Hammersmith & City was built with mixed gauge tracks? Would the GWR have taken out the extra rail enabling standard gauge companies to use the Met tracks?
Well, the Gauge War happened, and Great Western converted their 2000 mm Gauge to Standard Gauge. So, you should prepare another What if where Great Western won the war or the Gauge War didn't happen.
I'd like to see a range of "what if" tube maps
If anything this gives me the idea of building my own private metro line from the city to my palace. I mean if there can be a line going to Windsor, then I deserve to have one
Ehem, you had your own Soviet Style metro 2 already. Don't think we don't know you had it, Mr Kimpostor. Greetings from MI6, Ciao.
I would be fascinated to find out what the tube map would look like if history had taken a different route (pun not intended). I've been watching this channel for very long time, and I have yet to see anything that could be construed at "self-indulgent", except for the fact that you pander to your not-so secret love of all-things trains. Please continue.
High Wycombe on the Met line ? That would have made the commuting days a bit easier, seeing I live in Wycombe. Just a random thought, there used to be a service, only on Friday Paddington to Manchester the 17.08, which used to run, first stop to High Wycombe, that was pretty impressive as nothing has ever run fast to Wycombe, it has to stop at Wembley stadium and randomly between there and Beaconsfield, there used to a fast line through Gerrards Cross to pass the stopping trains. As we used to joke you know you on a slow one if if stops at Sudbury and Harrow Road. The joys of commuting
High Wycombe lost a lot of rail routes north and south
There was also one daily train from Paddington to Birmingham hauled by a class 47 loco, first stop High Wycombe. This lasted well into the 1980s.
When did a 1708 run Friday only to Manchester?
I remember well the 1812 daily to Birmingham, and consider the gradual rundown of Paddington to Northolt to be pure vandalism. Don't get me wrong I am grateful that we now have such services from Marylebone, but the direct route from Paddington would be shorter and faster.
General rule of thumb - if Wolmar says one thing, and someone else says something different, go with the someone else!
Another great video Jago, I'd love to see a video on tube lines that used have mainline services, so for example the epping line and hainult loop but also things like the GWR services into the city. I think that would be quite interesting
5:08 look at all that Canola growing!
Yes please..there are several “what ifs?” Including what if the met and district had merged? What if the met had eg joined with the LNER, as apparently they wanted to avoid becoming a part of the LPTB?
Another 'What if'' would involve the never-completed merger of the Metropolitan and District. If the District could run to Windsor, then a merged company could also run along the disused NW chord line at Hammersmith and into the City along the Hammersmith and City line.
Imagine during this merger it would be common to see a gwr train on the Wimbledon branch line or a metropolitan line train on the Hounslow west branch line or the Ealing Broadway branch
Huh. I was under the impression that in the modern tube, the district (green) was the only line that currently goes out to Windsor. I'm not mistaken am I?
@@krissp8712 that would be the current GWR franchise
No Underground lines make it to Windsor. GWR and SWR mainline trains do.
As it stands, the District doesn’t go beyond Richmond, and the only Underground line to get outside of Greater London to the west is the Metropolitan (to Chesham and Amersham, as well as Watford to the North). The Elizabeth Line will eventually link up half of Berkshire to the broader TfL ecosystem, but at the moment you have to change at Paddington, and it doesn’t actually go to Windsor in any case (only Slough).
@@tomwantshelp yh
Excellent. Years of reading about the MR/GWR relationship (and MR/DR to some degree) and never *quite* understanding how it worked fully between the two in those early years, fixed in 7 minutes. Keep it up!
Hey Jago, could you do a video summarising which major railway companies was involved in the creation and running of which lines? You have already made videos going into the details with a lot of them, but I would really like a summary showing the greater picture.
if the GWR had owned the Met what incentive would it have had to develop what eventually became the Circle Line? Even the Met felt obliged to shuffle off the challenge to a related, but financially and legally separate company, the Metropolitan District Railway - with whom its relationship soon proved to be anything but fraternal.
About 60 years ago I was told that the original plan was for the Metropolitan Railway to connect to Liverpool Street in a similar way to its connection at Paddington. This was to allow Royal Trains to go all the way from Windsor to Sandringham.
@@JP_TaVeryMuch Yes, it went across the concourse at Liverpool Street mainline station. A similar one at Waterloo too. I've been on the link at Kings Cross - that lasted much longer.
You are the Sherlock Holmes of the railways! I enjoy all your videos and thank you for them.
I thought it was just the metropolitan-district railway that was extended to Windsor via the gwr. Thanks for the new information.
"I'd like to give thanks as ever to my donors on Ko-Fi and Patreon, you are the electric locomotive to my Windsor train" - does that mean they don't exist? :P
A "what if the GWR had taken over the Met?" video sounds great. Could be the start of a whole "what if...?" series. For example "what if the formation of British Railways in 1948 had included the underground too?" Or "What if Yerkes had never left the USA?"
Do that what if video! You know you want to 😉 I have a few what if ideas myself.
1: What if the Metropolitan line stayed independent
2: Thameslink was owned by the Tube/TfL
3: What if CrossRail opened under Network South East
4: What if Trams and Trolleybuses in London survived? What sort of network would we see today? Would the trams and trolleybuses be to South London what the tube is to North London?
CrossRail certainly has independent stations from the tube, which is interesting, though some are connected they appear to be separate in concept
I agree with numbers 2 and 4. South London would become train heaven.
There is a GWR underground carriage (3755) preserved at Didcot which was specifically built for the Main Line and City service this video is about.
and 3756 (though not restored)
Hiya - @ between 1:38 & 2:03 I thought I had a dirty monitor b/c I saw a 'drip' on the screen - so I was about to go & get a cloth to wipe it clean - but then you changed shots & the 'drip' disappeared - so then I figured it must have been on your camera!!! 😄Interesting & confusing video b. t. w.!!! 🙂🚂🚂🚂
The idea that you could possibly not know something completely blows my mind.
Self-Indulge! Self-Indulge! Jago, any video you may do is sure to be entertaining. To that end, a video of paint on a Roundel drying?
I don't know about self-indulgent. Your videos are informative and have lots of humour thrown in for good measure. Keep going.
As usual, very informative and very well presented, I for one would indeed like to see a video as you describe about the very question you pose please, in fact any question surrounding the if's and maybe's of the underground network. What we have is what happened, but what if what we have hadn't happened at all and something else did? There must be a plethora of possibilities. Thanks again.
Since you asked... Yes, I'd like to see you speculate on the "What if" question.
I love your videos the more the better 😍
I subscribe to a fair few on TH-cam, but you are definitely the best.
So go along make lots of them I for one will be watching.
Thought your video was about something else so why I watched it from start to end I don't know. I was surprised to see how clean everything was. Thumbs up on the video and thumbs up on who's ever in charge of sweeping up.
I finally found this channel again. I used to listen to your videos while moving, it was a relatively romantic time looking back. In the back of my head I remembered your channel having a unique name but I couldn't quite place it (chaos hazard? jaggard hazzard?), the uniqueness of your name only made you easier to find in the end. it's good to be back.
The for your many videos. They are clear, concise and you have a very pleasant speaking tone. Keep up the good work.
Jago, please continue your self indulgence. It’s why we so enjoy your content. 👏👏👍😀
The spot of water (or whatever) dripping down the glass in front of the camera 1:42 into the video caused a funny moment here. The pollen and dust are rather brutal here and I've been sneezing a lot. As a live-streamer, I spend a lot of time in front of the computer screen and there have been a few sneezes lately. Looking up at just the right moment while watching my weekly Jago Hazzard video, I saw the -whatever it is- drooling down the screen and thought I needed to clean the monitor. I didn't.
What about if Sir Edward Watkins desires had come to fruition? You'd have Manchester to Paris trains between Baker Street and south of Moorgate. Can you imagine a steam train running through a Victorian Channel Tunnel?
Watkin's tunnelers actually dug over a mile of 7 foot wide tunnel in 1881-2 under the Channel out from Shakespeare Cliff between Dover and Folkestone towards France and from Sangatte near Calais a mile towards England. It was stopped by the British government due to defence concerns.
I presume they intended to use steam trains, perhaps with some kind of condensing apparatus, as used with mixed success on the Metropolitan Railway locomotives. But electric traction might have been in their minds, the first electric railway having been demonstrated by Seimens in Berlin in 1879, and Volk's Electric Railway at Brighton was being built, opening in 1883.
@@frglee I believe there was a plan to have a forced ventilation shaft mid-way on an artificial island in The Channel
Hell yes!!! I would watch it avidly. I love what if stories and my favourite Jago telling the tale of mystery and intrigue would not only be the Glacé Cherry on top, It would be a whole pile of messy whipped cream with 2 cherries and a flake 😋
Another strange working was when the line into Marylebone was closed for engineering works, BR DMUs ran into Baker Street
Are you sure you don't mean Paddington?...
@@surreygoldprospector576 no , this was non stop via Met line
@@adlam97531 Oh, thanks, that's interesting. Where were the trains from and when was this?
@@surreygoldprospector576 Presumably fromthe Aylesbury via Wendover, as they couldn't reach Paddington as the Wycombe line trains could.
@@norbitonflyer5625 Thanks. Yes, and there is no physical connection from the Wycombe line to the Met. I was surprised the DMUs had route clearance to Baker Street. It would be interesting to see any pictures of this, if anyone has a link.
All your videos are very interesting so I would say go for it. Knowledge is a wonderful thing 😁👍
Jago, can you do some of the What If series?
1. What if Great Western fully bought out Metropolitan?
2. What if Metropolitan and District didn't had conflict and merged completely before Yerkes bought District?
3. What if Watkins' railway mania was successful? Can we get direct trains from Midlands to Paris?
4. What if Metropolitan was not absorbed into London Transport?
5. What if services to Windsor, Southend, Verney Junction and Brill weren't closed?
6. What if UERL and London Transport didn't formed?
Shame they ended the arrangement of mainline trains running over Metro tracks. Tokyo's railways took a number of pages from GWR's book so now their commuter trains, once reaching the edge of the core of Tokyo metropolis, run through the Tokyo Metros' lines to the other side, in some places continuing on to a third company's lines. And it's not just commuter trains, there's also intercity trains (e.g. the Romancecar) and inter-airport trains (between Haneda and Narita) on the same sets of track. But wait, there's more! They all run a multitude of service patterns as well, from local service to super duper commuter express!
A similar thing is common in Germany too, look up S-Bahn for that.
@@mysterium368 Tokyo is very much a step up from that since it allows express services on subway lines and even intercity trains.
@@lars7935 Japanese public transport is of course way better.
love your convoluted tales
Thanks as ever Jago, fascinating. I've often wondered about the thinking behind the construction of the long, and somewhat unusual subway from South Kensington Station to beneath Exhibition Road. Was it ever intended to be more than a pedestrian passageway, and if so, why there?
Great video mate. Honestly I really wish it did come to Windsor. I live in Windsor and the train services could be so much better. Obviously from WNR we have the SWR going to Waterloo, and the GWR to Slough from WNC (one train every 20 mins!!). As a regular London Underground user, the annoyingly limited train services nearby mean I usually have to drive to Slough and take the Elizabeth Line, mainly because if I took the train to slough, it would mean having to drive into the town centre, which is notorious for its busy parking lots. I would be more inclined to partake in this tedious parking kerfuffle if the Tube ran directly into Windsor! (Edit): It would be very possible to extend the tube into Windsor. Say if the Central or District Lines at Ealing Broadway were extended, then taking the same westbound route as the Elizabeth Line towards Reading, but instead when it reaches go towards WNC. However I do understand that this would be (quite!) a task to complete, as Windsor and Eton Central has just one platform. But hey, if the District Line did come all the way round here in the past, maybe it might work? Maybe?
Yes Jago love , "What ifs". Sometimes it turns out that that is how it should have been!
At 5:40, a good juxtaposition of "Railway-ish services" with a building clearly signed as "Metropoplitan Railway / Parcels Office"...it doesn't get much more "railway-ish" than hauling freight! :)
Liverpool St to Windsor.. almost seems like an early version of Crossrail! Nothing new under the sun..Thanks again Jago...
Oh Jago, you are the Hazzard to my evening. Your what if videos are super, so yes please to more!!
Am I correct in saying that rail track used to connect Farringdon with Mainline GWR is what the Elizabeth line plans to use today?
Would feel fitting to extend the Lizzy line to Lizzy's home address don't you think?
No, they built a new railway. However it would be possible for the Elizabeth Line to serve Windsor, if they could negotiate crossing the fast lines OK at Slough. And electrifying the Windsor branch. I'm sure Her Maj. would be pleased.
Another interesting video, thanks. I would like a brief video on your reading list and book recommendations at some point if possible.
I love how Jago just takes nerdy-ness to the extreme of things💚
Can jago take the train to Barking Riverside?
Geoff Marshall's beaten Jago to it
@@martyonline1957 And three other youtubers . Jago Tried but the Goblin as normal was suspended due to signal failure
He’s already visited it no?
His video before this is about Barking Riverside
@@Ro99 But he didnt take the train, the bus was the mode to the destination
He tried to and nearly killed himself in the process.
Get with the program!
I bet you’re always late and miss your trains! Actually late for everything!
I'm always down for a bit of alternate history!
Please do make the what-if video, and be sure to include plenty of what-if maps, it should be fun. Thanks again for an interesting vid Jago.
1:40 I thought my monitor was dirty
videos railway history what ifs sound like a great idea
I find it really interesting that the Met basically pioneered the idea of farther afield mainline railway services using a tunnel with rapid transit service in a city centre, and…Thameslink and the Elizabeth line basically “rediscovered” that innovation.
I'd like to see a video exploring the Great Central Railway (Well, what's left of it!), and, if it was still fully operational, whether it would be a good alternative to HS2 - with a few upgrades here and there.
There is a “Rediscovering Lost Railways” documentary on the GCR that looks at what’s left of it. As for being an alternative to HS2, not really. Too much of the route has been built upon since it was abandoned. HS2 actually uses part of the GCR’s former route near the intersection with EWR.
@@andrewreynolds4949 Yes. It's a shame that so much of that route is long, long gone, but my premise was if it had still been in operation today.
@@AFCManUk imagine if they had electrified the line down to Marylebone whilst they built the new Woodhead tunnel, and seeing the EM2s( class 77) running with the Met line ..
@@AFCManUk In some ways it would be, I think it would be a good express line alternative to the MML and would provide useful freight capacity. It could at least partly do the job for the eastern HS2 branch, but since it doesn't go to Birmingham or Manchester I don't think it would be able to do the job of much of HS2.
Fascinating, thank you!
If the Victorian railway companies had been less aggresive toward each other then I believe the Met & the District could easily have remained part of national rail rather then London Underground & we would have had more cross London rail services. But then again, that ignores the trams which hugely undermined many commuter lines in London as they were cheaper.. Hindsight is always a great thing..
How did you manage 23 likes and 21 views? Love the video🙃
I was so early for the video Geoff Marshall uploaded yesterday that TH-cam claimed it had 12 likes and 1 view. After I'd watched it, TH-cam updated the view count to over 1000 which seems more realistic.
the Metropolitan Tanks. I see a plot forming here . a good plot.
Wonderful shot of 2999 Lady of Legend. Strictly speaking, not only is she not a 19th century engine but is in fact- arguably at least- an entirely new one 😃 Of course, she has lots of component parts primarily from Maindy Hall (as I am sure you well know 😉) but hey, in a video about a moot point it sits right at home 😉
When you say about services from Liverpool Street, I wonder if these were among the first to utilise the now long gone platform 3 in the Sub-surface station, which you could still see the connection to in the 70s and early 80s (if you were a nerd enough to notice that sort of thing) even though I think the actual platform had been boarded up by then after they stopped using it in the late 60s or early 70s. I think that also might have been because of the remodelling of Aldgate so they could use it as the terminus for the Wembley bound services. I can’t be fagged to look it up right now as I need a cuppa, but I think the Aldgate/Liverpool Street remodelling, etc would be an excellent video 🤔
Of course, if you have already done one…er…it was excellent and I really enjoyed it 😜
Speaking of new videos, I thing a speculative video about how another railway company might have done things differently as a result of theories based upon little more than pure conjecture would be an excellent idea 💡 There is nothing I like more than a self indulgent drift into whatifism 🤓 I personally like the idea that at one time I could have theoretically got on a through coach on the front of a train at Chalkwell, changed engines at East Ham, got taken through to Paddington and coupled up to a train straight to Ceredigion for a lovely holiday on the west coast of Wales 🤷🏻♂️
Iechyd dda! 👍🍀🍻
Another excellent 'tale from the tube'.😎🤗
The financial planning of a lot of early railways was akin to that of the Underpants Gnomes:
Phase 1. Build railway
Phase 2. ?
Phase 3. Profit
I believe that these tales prove that railways or mass transit systems are only ever successful when they are Nationalised since profits are so slim. It is easily forgotten that cheap mass transit for people is the priority, profit is gained elsewhere in the greater economy, these transport systems given over completely to commercial business will always be at the mercy of "profit" thus never providing a successful service to the people.
Great and interesting video jago
I misread the title as being in present tense. I was very confused at the start of the video when you said you needed to look it up. My best guess was that maybe there was some sort of overflow maintenance depot in Windsor that Metropolitan line rolling stock could theoretically be sent to, and you could theoretically stow away upon a train going that way, so naturally the actual grounded video was inevitably not as exciting as theorycrafting how one could ride the “Metropolitan line” to Windsor. But the idea of direct trains from Reading to Liverpool Street is very… oh hang on, I’m just being told those are planned…
Interesting that TFL has expunged all mention of the H & C station at Paddington being Platforms 15 and 16. They also convince hapless tourists that the H & C is a convenient interchange for the other lines. The lift is often fully occupied in transporting fully laden tourists to the only meaningful interchange: the taxi rank, which is more than the central section of The Elizabeth Line can do. However, more often than not, it is not a taxi that they want. They may want the Bakerloo or District. Well, I wish them luck.
0:45 Oh yeah! Just coming back to this video I realised that since this station is the most local to me, this is the big “windsor & eton central” box near the train replica. I go to this station often, so i recognise it.
So a sort of "I've got the trains, you've got the tracks. Let's make lots of money" You can use that if you want.
Great video Jago
JE Connor is an excellent source, as are the books from the Middleton Press of which I have a number on London and suburban lines.
Yes, I would like to see a video on the GWR taking over the Metropolitan.
Whether the Metropolitan Railway is an Underground Line is also a matter for discussion. Conceptually, I don't see it being much different to the Northern City Line. Different power supply, different colour of trains, and funded from a different budget, but none of those factors make it an Underground.
The original section between Bishop's Road and Farringdon Street was almost entirely underground in both the sense of being in a tunnel and being at a lower elevation than the streets. It differs from the Northern City line by being constructed by the cut and cover method, while the Northern City uses a pair of shield-driven deep level tubes between Moorgate and Drayton Park, reaching the surface south of Finsbury Park. The Met later expanded, mostly via the surface. The Northern City still only exists between Moorgate and Finsbury Park, though the current services extend beyond Finsbury Park on other tracks.
If London Overground had been a thing many years ago instead of comparatively recently, would the Met not have been a major part of it instead of the Tube?
@@davidemmott6225 Yes I think so.
@@davidemmott6225 The Metropolitan Railway was absorbed by the London Passenger Transport Board, which pre-dates nationalisation. So the Metropolitan line has been part of London Underground for as long as the latter has existed, therefore there has never been any scope for it to be a part of London Overground. "The Tube" is just a colloquialism and has no real definition. You could no doubt argue that subsurface lines ought to be transferred to London Overground because the name is more appropriate but what would that achieve, when both are parts of TfL anyway?
The Metropolitan Railway remained independent at the time of railway Grouping in 1923. If it had become part of the LNER and then part of British Rail then it could possibly have transferred to London Overground in recent years but there's no time when London Overground could have existed before the merger with LPTB.
@@johnm2012 Sure, and the Metropolitan Railway included the Northern City Line at the time, and it was later transferred to British Rail/Network South East, and also the East London Line, which was later transferred to the Overground, and the Widened Lines which is now used by Thameslink.
If the definition for "an underground service" is that it runs over LU tracks, does that mean the random SWR service that goes via the District Line is technically an underground service?
Isn’t that section actually NR track which LU has running rights over?
@@SportyMabamba 'yes' and 'no' is the answer I think. At privatisation I understand the ownership of the line was transferred to LU, but the signalling system remains under Network Rail (as is) control. But I may be wrong.
Sounds like today's through-running agreements between many Tokyo commuter railways and adjacent Tokyo Underground lines. You really can get to countless places beyond the actual line you're on from many Tokyo Metro stops. Sometimes Metro trains are also extended onto the commuter railways.
The way it's usually classified is by who is operating the service. So if it's a metro train extended onto the main line it's still a Metro train all the way, but if it's a commuter train entering a Metro line it remains a train from that particular railway company and _their_ line.
In that sense, I'd answer the question in the video title with a "no" - you couldn't take "the Metropolitan Line" to Windsor, but you _could_ take GWR trains from a Metropolitan Line station to get there. But that's just my opinion! It's certainly a fascinating dilemma to ponder.
Thanks for another interesting video.
The biggest what-if for me with the Underground is if Morgan has beaten Yerkes rather that the other way round. The Morgan tube routes cover some places still without coverage today.
Informative as ever thanks
As someone who doesn't live in London, but here in Norfolk i do fine these videos really fascinating. Its good to see how the underground was before it became what it is today.
@British Film Guy This is a bit random but I'll say it anyway. If you're in Norfolk you're not too far from Suffolk, and Ipswich. Did you know that Ipswich once had an underground train network? Honest! It really did! And the front of Burton's opposite the town hall was one of the stations. I didn't believe it either when I first heard the story, but it's true.
@@aprilsmith1166 really, never knew that must of been a pleasant surprise when you heard about it.
Here in Norfolk the only thing remotely popular way back then was a fairly big tram network back in the early 1900's mainly across Norwich but still..
Maybe I’m a tech nerd rather then a business nerd, but to me an Underground Line is one that has trains and other equipment specifically designed to run in the conditions found underground. As you mentioned the Metropolitan had steam trains designed to run in its tunnels, and later electrification makes clear what an underground line is, if neither sort of train ran to Windsor then no underground line ran to Windsor.
Hi Jago. Yes, let's have a "what if..." video!
Would love a what if video for the GWR owning the met. Do the points still exist as a possibel diversion for the new Liz line to reach the city from the west?
Yes,please let us have more 'What if?' videos !
The District used to go to all the way to Southend beach! 😂
Indulge away we are waiting with baited breath.
The original GWR didn't run suburban services at all. The first station out of Paddington was Slough (and that only a village then) so I am surprised no other Company tried it earlier. PS Wolmar knows his stuff.
Ealing was the first station out of London in 1840. Had about 6 trains stop there a day. Slough was though the first stop for the trains that went the full distance, at that time Farringdon Road.
I reckon that if GWR had control of the Met line then it might have expanded and 4 tracked sections to provide express and goods services services across London and Crossrail would never be needed.
Keep them coming.
It's a Wombling Free train
What ifs are the best type of railway video - if the GWR had taken over the Met is an interesting question
What if, you got your own TV channel, heaven!
Intriguing, you could follow that up with would the GWR have built broad-guage tubes, or would the Metropolitan have bought out the GWR?
Ever Since I watched you Jago you’ve given some facts that I don’t even know even I’m 25 But thanks 🙏 and looking forward for more Facts 👍
Great video.💜
Very good Jago
Not only could you do a counter-factual on “if the GWR bought the Met”, but maybe you could do a whole series on counter-factual outcomes?