Mike’s comment about expansions *is* weird. However, I would agree that having DI 1.5 in Uprising after only 4 years is open for criticism. Maybe that is his actual complaint but he made the argument too general and there are a ton of games in his list with just as many or more expansions.
I get where Mike is coming from on the Dune thing. Once a game settles into your collection, assuming you're happy with it, it's extra work to keep going back, assessing new expansions, making new purchasing, fitting them into the box/insert/shelving. When you make a single big purchase, you sort it, store it, and it's done. It's a psychological thing to keep having to go back and reevaluate a game you were happy with and thought you were done with.
But how many times during this top 100 has it been stated that receiving the a huge box full of stuff makes you just too intimidated to play the game? If I recall correctly, there was just such a discussion about Everdell in one of the previous episodes.
I find many of Mike's choices hard to relate to but I don't miss Sam. His style of 'humorous banter' (to me) felt bellicose and irritating. And he used to constantly fiddle with things like endlessly rolling the giant D20s for no reason. DT videos have got a lot more polished now, much less sipping on drinks, etc.
For the record, Charlotte the spider said "Salutations" when greeting Wilbur the pig for the first time in Charlotte's Web. It was very sweet and charming.
I'm with Mike. I was interested in Dune Imperium, but never got around to pulling the trigger. Then i heard from many people that you should never play without the Rise of Ix expansion. Then Dune Uprising came out, and everyone says it's the better game! It makes me not want to get any of them because within a year or two they'll probably have upgraded again. I think I'll wait till they havent released anything in 3 or 4 years. Edit: Also as I said on a previous video, Mike is talking about his PERSONAL top 100. Nobody HAS to agree with him.
Don't listen to . We are just too connected in this day and age. Good games like this are amazing out of the box, you can play it a dozen times and have fun with friends before you need anything additional. I still play King of Tokyo very rarely with expansion because I mostly teach it to new people as a gateway game, and base game is fine for that. Even though it is a "must"-expansion if there is ever such a thing. We gamers should concentrate on our fun first and foremost and not on the "scene", it beats the purpose.
Mike's Dune feelings are the same feelings that I have about the Dune imperium products. I love the game, but it is frustrating to have bought a product that is good, but know that there are expansions out there that could make it better. But in order to get those you need to spend more money. I 100% understand where he is coming from. You are not crazy, Mike. And it is not just about the complexities of deciding whether or not to include an expansion, but also about the ethos behind the production team's decision. I get the decision business wise, but it feels sneaky. Maybe it is just coincidental, but it can make you feel that they did it intentionally to capitalize on known previous products deficiencies and feedback.
tom, I've been teaching emotion management to my 5th graders today. remember: stop, name your feeling, calm down. I feel like you've been sassier recently and it honestly makes me a little uncomfortable
I need to stand up for Mike here and say that while idk if I'd agree with him myself, I can see why he isn't a fan of Dune Imperium releasing a bunch of extra content, but is okay with ordering games that have a bunch of extra content straight out of the gate. Some games ride that line of perfection where you have just enough content for you, and adding more kind of tips the scales a bit. Whereas with buying games with extra content, you know that content is included ahead of time, so you expect it.
His number one game of all time for many years did the exact same thing Dune did. And why pay for all that extra bloat ahead of time not knowing if the game is any good or if you’ll even like it. I like Mike but for me this is such a confusing argument to try and make especially when you can go through his list and find many more that have done similar things.
These videos have been the highlight of my week! I am more than happy to support The Dice Tower on Kickstarter every year. But seeing Monumental on these lists really stings. Like most people who backed the game I'm still waiting for my copy. At this point they probably won't even deliver them to us even though they are starting to go to retail.
Yeah, I backed the classic one, and because that's the retail one I could buy it now and have it before getting my KS copy. I've seen it marginally cheaper and with cheaper shipment. That's ridiculous.
I get where Mike is coming from with Dune Imperium as I am in the same boat. I have the game and the deluxe box. The expansions are high on my wish list. The new game has put me off from playing it again. If they had released Uprising as a pure expansion there wouldn't be a problem and it certainly is possible to do that. I think you get a different feeling when everything comes out simultaneously for a game. The base game and some expansions through crowdfunding, compared to a base game and a few expansions and then an updated/second edition over a short period of time.
Be kind to Mike! He has a point. I too feel a bit manipulated and confused when an interesting game starts spawning improvements, expansions, sequels and collections. Oh no, I bought the game too early! When that happens after a long time, it is less of a problem though.
Cool, TWO Seinfeld references today. Well done, Mike. "Rods and Cones" was really funny. Also, I'm with Mike because I HATE that they basically AMENDED the base game of Dune Imperium TWICE now. That one expansion and now Uprising both change up the base game and feel like patches. As an owner of the base game, I HATE that I either need to REBUY almost the same game or go on without all the new content now. It's infuriating and borderline money- hungry. Tom, this situation is NOTHING like picking and choosing how many expansions to add to your Endless Winter Kickstarter.
I played Uprising and it was fine. Couple of nice improvements but for me DI plus Ix is still the best experience. I would try Immortality but the content hasn’t been very appealing. Despite what they say trying to integrate DI expansions into DU seems like a nightmare and they go to great pains to say you really shouldn’t but you can.
Why does Tom seem to be constantly hating on Garphill this year in these lists? It seems like he used to really like him, and now he just seems annoyed any time they're mentioned. Tom was picking on people for hating on games like Wingspan just because they get so popular, but it seems that Tom is basically doing the same for this particular publisher / design team. I think it's quite remarkable that a team of two designers can consistently put out games that are this good and I honestly think everything in their medieval trilogies (besides maybe the original Shipwrights and Explorers) are deserving of a place in the top 100.
We need Blue Moon City and Blue Moon Legends to be reprinted. I love the theme and look on both games. The art and pallette reminds me in a way to Elder Scrolls Morrowind.
I have enjoyed Dune Imperium Base, played w the first exp, then with the first 2, not Immortality yet, got Uprising, and will be excited to try that. I don't think it has to be a one or the other for me, they have the same theme and a lot of overlap but Playing DI has been great, I don't think playing DU will diminish that personally, they can both be good experiences, (I'm assuming I will like DU since I loved DI, I wasn't offended by DU's release but can't fault others for being put off. I think what put Mike and some people over the edge is DU being so similar to DI, along with the release time being not long after the last expansion, that it then made them retroactively dislike the timeline for the previous expansions timeline for DI and put a bad taste in their mouths. I can see Mike's point, but I also agree with Tom's point overall as far as being fine with extra content being doled out in spurts, but I think I can understand Mike and others may want to know up front what they're getting into and make the choice then vs. 'surprise' expansions. If DU had come out this year instead, with a but more space in between, maybe it would've felt better to some. So basically I can see both Mike and Tom's point, and I love the fired up discussion! Reminded me of the Sam days as well lol, I say there's nothing wrong with having a strong opinion on something and getting into it! I enjoyed it! Top 100's are always a highlight, keep it up guys!
I usually, always, agree with Mike. But I don’t understand the love for a game going down simply for other content coming out quickly in different pieces. I’m with Tom on this. I have to admit my biased in saying this is my favorite game of all time, right now, Wayfarers and Dwellings are giving it a run for it’s money, but it is still my favorite, right now. But anyway, Mike is entitled to his feelings, and I don’t mean to invalidate them. I just don’t understand it. 😅
I agree with Mike on expansions because it gets annoying checking up on your current games alot to see if something is new. "AIN'T NOBODY GOT TIME FOR THAT!"
Whoa! Ole Steiness is in this video? Champions of Midgard (with the expansions) is my absolute favorite competitive game! Awesome! Now, could they please do a co-op campaign like what Lost Ruins of Arnak did recently? I'd pay big bucks to help kickstart that!
My thing with Uprising is why couldn’t there be an upgrade/integration pack for people who don’t want to have to buy an entire other copy of the same game. If it’s essentially a “New Game Plus”, just sell me the plus
You'd have to replace nearly everything making it cost at least as much, if not more, than the Uprising box. Why more? It's an economy of scale situation. Splitting the product into 2 SKUs makes it cost more to produce. This lowers the demand for both products which would increase the price of both. While Uprising isn't a cheap game, it's a relatively affordable one. If you're wanting to "upgrade" to it, then just buy the game.
Fair enough. I wasn’t saying in addition to the standalone game. I was saying instead of. So less arduous than maintaining 2 SKUs. But if there’s that much that’s new it makes sense to just let it be a standalone
I 100% with Mike here, see on 1 side when you buying multiple things you know it beforehand while if you keep putting out content every 3-6 months you left feeling cheated out. Its like you have choice of 2 burgers 1 $20 and one $12 you decide to go for the cheap one and than they start asking you need cheese,ok its extra cash, ok you need onion, you need pickle now (extra cash) and you started to feel cheated as your burger should already come with the things which makes it good and don't charge me extra to make it better, while $20 already have everything that makes it good and you can remove things that you dont' like but you are not cheated into thinking it was good itself.
The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the Dune: Imperium vs. Uprising issue is completely different from releasing tons of expansions, which encourage you to _keep_ the game you love and play it more. A re-make that everyone says is better encourages you to _trash and replace_ the game you love. It's like when a second edition (improved) comes out, but that's usually a long time later with plenty of time for people to have thoroughly worn out their old copy and for the criticisms to gain wide acceptance, so that the new edition can say "we addressed what everyone didn't like". Uprising came out while we were all still foolishly under the impression it was a near-perfect, amazing game that didn't need a second edition, and while our copies are still rather fresh in our collection.
For me Abyss is one of the most underrated games on BGG, 400+ come on! Mike, I'm sure it will go up if you play with the leviathan expension, it's great!
Mike's argument was rather flawed BUT he is still correct. I felt the same way. Dune Imperium got two expansions rather quickly: barely rules of one got learned and then played when another release was announced. And I definitely felt the exhaustion when Imperium Uprising was announced. The expansions are decent, but didn't allow the game enough time to breathe for some fans.
Im not that much of a dune imperium fan, but if i wanted to get into it at least I can make an educated decision which product I want and how much of it. Just imagine if all of it had come out at the same time.
Sure, but if DU is better, then I still made a sub optimal choice. The only time you get to make an educated decision is if both are on the same retail shelves at the same time. Which is the case right now (but was not true in the past).
It’s odd that two expansions and a new standalone have spoiled Mike’s impression of Dune: Imperium, but two expansions and three incompatible standalones didn’t spoil Mike’s impression of Azul.
Mike, the Dune board games are IPs, and I would bet big money that both games were scheduled to come out with each movie. However, since the movie is virtually Dune Part 2, there isn’t a substantial name difference like there would be if it were Star Wars TFA then TLJ. So it’s hard to get too upset with them for this release. However, part of the reason I don’t play MTG anymore is because they nearly doubled their product release while increasing prices and it’s just too tiresome and expensive to keep up, so even though I don’t normally buy board game expansions (because they are sometimes literally the price of an entire new game, and when I have Big Box games I rarely find myself using expansion content anyway because I’m playing with new people), I kinda get the general complaint.
Kinda surprised that _7 Wonders Duel_ fell that much on Zee's list without much of a mention. He just kinda said "This was number 9, and it's now 28", and then made no other mention as to the change of ranking, or why he thought he'd rated it lower this year.
Big fan of the dice tower and everyone who hosts these top 100’s! I do want to friendly like point out to Mike that dune: imperium is created by Paul dennan who also created clank. Clank came out in 2016. In 2017 clank in space came out as well as an expansion for clank. In 2018 3 more expansions for clank came out. In 2019 clank legacy came out, an expansion for clank in space, 2 clank acquisitions packs and a clank expansion. In 2020 the 6 player expansion for clank came out. In 2021 an expansion for clank in space came out. In 2022 clank catacombs came out. And after its first year off, in 2024 clank legacy 2 will come out. My point being, this designer LOVES expansions! He definitely toned it way down with dune. And I love that he planned ahead for dune uprising to come out, which would be a familiar board but allow for some changes to the game and for 6 players to play, while also still allowing both expansions to be used. I think he may be my favorite designer. And a big piece of that is his expansions that feel fun, but are never too expensive. Of course you are welcome to feel however you want about a game and its expansions. But this one has a history that definitely made me aware that these would be coming.
Regarding Dune, I'm on Tom's side. Nobody is forcing you to buy the expansions and if it bothers you that expansion exist that you don't own and you have FOMO, then it sounds like a you problem.
LOL, 22 Dune is when the energy drink fully kicks in and puts Tom into berserker mode! Nonsensical logic turned Tom speechless, and he almost pulled his hat down over his head and had it poke out of the top like an old timey cartoon! 😂 Tom’s right, of course. Get Mike some key lime food so he can think straight again! (Mike, I don’t like shelling out money for a series of endless content either. Well, besides Unmatched. Besides that, let me spend $200 once. Not $30 here and there every few months, like for Arkham Horror. Oh, wait…)
I ordered and paid for Monumental with expansions 3 years ago and I never got it. Tried to reach out to the designer and developer, but they never answered 😮💨 Website is down as well
30. Dominion 29. Time's Up! 28. Le Havre 27. San Juan (Second Edition) 26. Tzolk'in: The Mayan Calendar 25. Heroscape 24. Rhino Hero: Super Battle 23. Skull King 22. Rolling Freight 21. Blood Rage
I'm on Mike's side in the Dune: Imperium debate. Not being a board game reviewer, I'm not getting a game before it's even out. I want to wait until I know more about it and what everyone thinks about it and maybe get a chance to try it. And then there's something new! And then more newness! And way more! Now I feel if I want to get involved, it's going to be a money pit. That's why the only Zombicide game I own is Night of the Living Dead. I don't want no Dune: Dominium. I'd rather spend that money on three other games. That said, Mike is also the person that owns like 27 seasons of Final Girl, so I may be on his side, but it's for a completely different reason!
Saying the Dune: Imperium releases were over 4 years is specious. The game shipped in December 2020 if preordered. D:I-Uprising came out in November of 2023. That is marginally less than 3 years. For me, a 3 year old game feels new, so I get Mike's feeling on this. I now have a 3 year old game that is outdated. Sure, it is still a great game but I can't help thinking "yeah, but you aren't Uprising" when I look at it.
Both games feel different enough to play imo. Dune Imperium focuses more on deckbuilding and has often some interesting plays. It plays a bit slower than Uprising. Uprising is much more combat oriented. If you're comparing the base games I give the edge to uprising because all the locations and intrigue cards are more useful and better balanced. I can see myself playing Dune Imperium with the Rise of Ix expansion instead of uprising. Also, I much more prefer releasing games with no expansions than brand new games with the base game and 2-3 expansions already included. I don't understand that Mike prefers that over expansion or new releases over the years.
Four years is way too short a time for a game to release two expansions and an upgrade pack and a big box AND a 1.25 version of the same game. The expansions al0ne would be fine but to release the ame game with a couple tweaks in only four years of its life?
I understand some complaints about Dune Uprising, but I think it's really weird to have your opinion of an original game decrease, because a lot of new content exists. One can choose to disregard the new content. . . This goes for their comments on Everdell too, but I guess those big boxes actively keep them from playing the game which is a little more understandable.
For me, personally, I don't usually mind expansions (though I do agree with Zee from a previous video that that can sometimes make a game harder to get back to the table, as with Everdell, Terraforming Mars, etc.). But this 2.0 version of Dune: Imperium has really bothered me. It's the company telling us that they can do that game better (and all the reviews agreeing), and so I have to think of my current game as like a prototype or lesser version of what I _could_ be playing if I gave even more money. And then, if I did, I would probably agree with the reviewers and move on to the newer version. I really wish they had just put out a different game, and let Dune: Imperium be what it is with its two expansions. Of course, lots of people feel the opposite way, and that's totally fine. But, I sympathize with Mike on this one, and I do feel less excited to get my game to the table these days.
Expansions easily can give the vibe of the base game feeling incomplete. Heck some games are released with an expansion already planned. It is parceled out to make a bit more cash. This happens in kickstarters a lot and bothers some people which is understandable.
Is Uprising the “version 2.0” or is there a literal new printing that changes the original? I thought Uprising was an expansion and not stand alone… (?)
I agree in theory. But there's something to be said about the idea that an expansion implies the designer themselves didn't think the base game was complete. It's one of my favorite things about the Brass games - they're so finely tuned that there's probably no way to add expansions without making the game worse.
My understanding is that Uprising replaces base Imperium. If that is the case, it is not a standalone expansion, it is a reimplementation of the base game that is compatible with the expansions. I don't think the issue is sinister intent, more disappointment that such a recent game is essentially being replaced by a Version 2.
I agree with Mike about the Dune thing being confusing. Like the Uprising Rulebook just straight up does not recommend mixing with the original game box at all. When mixing in the expansions, it just recommends imagining a spy space where one would be in Uprising. Why not just include the expansions with Uprising and make it a complete edition?
I think the real point that Mike is pointing out about Dune Imperium is that the expansions and then the Uprising thing, coming very shortly after, all seems to try correcting some issues about the original game. So the customer/player may feel as the original game was rush out and put on market while not ready. So, buying a game not ready and then having to buy some expansions correcting the game sucks a little bit... everything from expansions coud be already integrated in the base game. It add few content at a big price.
Tom perfectly voiced why i did not enjoy Bad Company. It bogs down with all of the minutia of allocating the dice and moving the car and moving on the track and collecting different things ans passing the necklace thing around. Its just too much for that type of game. In Space Base the active plager rolls, everyone moves their income markers and the active plaher decides if he wants to buy a card. It's exactly what im looking for in that type of a game.
![[Live สด] การออกรางวัลสลากกินแบ่งรัฐบาล งวดวันที่ 16 พฤศจิกายน 2567](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wPd7VFfWHIA/mqdefault.jpg)
Mike’s comment about expansions *is* weird. However, I would agree that having DI 1.5 in Uprising after only 4 years is open for criticism. Maybe that is his actual complaint but he made the argument too general and there are a ton of games in his list with just as many or more expansions.
Not sure if time is different in the board game space but in the video game 4 years is too long for a game as popular comparitively.
How does Mike simultaneously make Dice Tower videos both more low-brow and high-brow? 😂
I get where Mike is coming from on the Dune thing. Once a game settles into your collection, assuming you're happy with it, it's extra work to keep going back, assessing new expansions, making new purchasing, fitting them into the box/insert/shelving. When you make a single big purchase, you sort it, store it, and it's done. It's a psychological thing to keep having to go back and reevaluate a game you were happy with and thought you were done with.
Yes yes yes! Exactly this feeling. Mike should copy paste this into the next time he has to make this argument.
I love dune imperium but I have rise of Ix just sitting in there and I know it’s probably good but it is discouraging me from playing it
@@jessewieman6955 FWIW I think it's fairly easy to implement. Less of a headache than Immortality in terms of thinking during the game.
But how many times during this top 100 has it been stated that receiving the a huge box full of stuff makes you just too intimidated to play the game? If I recall correctly, there was just such a discussion about Everdell in one of the previous episodes.
Hearing Roy laugh at stuff in the background gives me life 😂
I always appreciate that too.
It's like an audience self-insert lol
Zee's the best! I was in stiches watching him during the Dune Imperium argument :D
heck yeah. one of the best moments...
And, yeah, Mike's argument is totally illogical.
On #22 I felt like my mom and dad were fighting in front of me and I had to sit there uncomfortably while they argued 😂
I, for one, love the spirited debate. I miss that from the days when Sam was on the top tens.
i definitely had more in common with Sam in gaming taste.
I find many of Mike's choices hard to relate to but I don't miss Sam. His style of 'humorous banter' (to me) felt bellicose and irritating. And he used to constantly fiddle with things like endlessly rolling the giant D20s for no reason. DT videos have got a lot more polished now, much less sipping on drinks, etc.
For the record, Charlotte the spider said "Salutations" when greeting Wilbur the pig for the first time in Charlotte's Web. It was very sweet and charming.
Salutations as a greeting is normally a reference to Demolition man.
We need a "4 Squares Classics" series for classic, timeless games like Pitch Car.
"You know what I've never read?" "A book!"
A restaurant bill
After the lists this week, I’m gonna need to take out a second mortgage for all my gaming desires.
To be fair, whether it makes sense or not, I totally felt the same, Mike. I was surprised to hear others felt the same.
These lists have been fantastic. Also always good to see Rob!
Came for the games, stayed for the commentary and roasting 😁😁
I've been around long enough that I know any game they talk about and have played most of them. I 100% watch just for the commentary.
I finally got my shoutout! :) I am sad that I missed it live, though. Keep up the great work!
I'm with Mike. I was interested in Dune Imperium, but never got around to pulling the trigger. Then i heard from many people that you should never play without the Rise of Ix expansion. Then Dune Uprising came out, and everyone says it's the better game! It makes me not want to get any of them because within a year or two they'll probably have upgraded again. I think I'll wait till they havent released anything in 3 or 4 years.
Edit: Also as I said on a previous video, Mike is talking about his PERSONAL top 100. Nobody HAS to agree with him.
Don't listen to . We are just too connected in this day and age. Good games like this are amazing out of the box, you can play it a dozen times and have fun with friends before you need anything additional. I still play King of Tokyo very rarely with expansion because I mostly teach it to new people as a gateway game, and base game is fine for that. Even though it is a "must"-expansion if there is ever such a thing. We gamers should concentrate on our fun first and foremost and not on the "scene", it beats the purpose.
100% agree with Mike DiLisio on his take on Dune Imperium and Uprising.
So many games do this. You don’t have to buy it or play with it. Either way it shouldn’t impact a rating of a base game IMO
I'm really blown away that the 1st release from a new game company made it so high on the top games of all time. That's cool!
Ice ice baby!
Definitely going to look into Coloma. Final Frontier has some really fun games, Monsters on Board and Rise to Nobility both made my Top 100.
Mike's Dune feelings are the same feelings that I have about the Dune imperium products. I love the game, but it is frustrating to have bought a product that is good, but know that there are expansions out there that could make it better. But in order to get those you need to spend more money. I 100% understand where he is coming from. You are not crazy, Mike. And it is not just about the complexities of deciding whether or not to include an expansion, but also about the ethos behind the production team's decision. I get the decision business wise, but it feels sneaky. Maybe it is just coincidental, but it can make you feel that they did it intentionally to capitalize on known previous products deficiencies and feedback.
Always a good laugh with these guys!
tom, I've been teaching emotion management to my 5th graders today. remember: stop, name your feeling, calm down. I feel like you've been sassier recently and it honestly makes me a little uncomfortable
I need to stand up for Mike here and say that while idk if I'd agree with him myself, I can see why he isn't a fan of Dune Imperium releasing a bunch of extra content, but is okay with ordering games that have a bunch of extra content straight out of the gate. Some games ride that line of perfection where you have just enough content for you, and adding more kind of tips the scales a bit. Whereas with buying games with extra content, you know that content is included ahead of time, so you expect it.
His number one game of all time for many years did the exact same thing Dune did. And why pay for all that extra bloat ahead of time not knowing if the game is any good or if you’ll even like it. I like Mike but for me this is such a confusing argument to try and make especially when you can go through his list and find many more that have done similar things.
I’m with Mike. You release a game, release a couple of expansions… and then a year and a half later release Dune 1.5??
C’mon.
@@robkanngiesser5463 And that makes you like the game less?
It definitely puts a damper on my desire to play… I paid good $ for the game only to find out that it was essentially the prototype for 1.5…
They put out the game and expansions all while they were working on the ‘updated’ version.
These videos have been the highlight of my week! I am more than happy to support The Dice Tower on Kickstarter every year. But seeing Monumental on these lists really stings. Like most people who backed the game I'm still waiting for my copy. At this point they probably won't even deliver them to us even though they are starting to go to retail.
Yeah, I backed the classic one, and because that's the retail one I could buy it now and have it before getting my KS copy.
I've seen it marginally cheaper and with cheaper shipment.
That's ridiculous.
I get where Mike is coming from with Dune Imperium as I am in the same boat. I have the game and the deluxe box. The expansions are high on my wish list. The new game has put me off from playing it again. If they had released Uprising as a pure expansion there wouldn't be a problem and it certainly is possible to do that.
I think you get a different feeling when everything comes out simultaneously for a game. The base game and some expansions through crowdfunding, compared to a base game and a few expansions and then an updated/second edition over a short period of time.
Be kind to Mike! He has a point. I too feel a bit manipulated and confused when an interesting game starts spawning improvements, expansions, sequels and collections. Oh no, I bought the game too early! When that happens after a long time, it is less of a problem though.
This is my yearly reminder that I should pull out Petrichor from my library. Beautiful game with a nice solo.
Blue Moon City and ICE are both favourites in my collection. Keep preaching Mike!
Cool, TWO Seinfeld references today. Well done, Mike. "Rods and Cones" was really funny. Also, I'm with Mike because I HATE that they basically AMENDED the base game of Dune Imperium TWICE now. That one expansion and now Uprising both change up the base game and feel like patches. As an owner of the base game, I HATE that I either need to REBUY almost the same game or go on without all the new content now. It's infuriating and borderline money- hungry. Tom, this situation is NOTHING like picking and choosing how many expansions to add to your Endless Winter Kickstarter.
I played Uprising and it was fine. Couple of nice improvements but for me DI plus Ix is still the best experience. I would try Immortality but the content hasn’t been very appealing.
Despite what they say trying to integrate DI expansions into DU seems like a nightmare and they go to great pains to say you really shouldn’t but you can.
😂😂😂Zee while Mike and Tom argue about Dune, slowly drifting further and further away😂😂😂 “Potasium??” 😂😂😂
Been awhile since I last saw UndeadViking on TH-cam. Pretty cool.
My Call of Cthulhu campaign is headed to Hyperborea. I’d love your take on this mythical land in a future video.
Tom's #26: the theme is there, just try out Chronicles! Or better yet, the RPGish Redemption will be released on BGG in 2024!
Why does Tom seem to be constantly hating on Garphill this year in these lists? It seems like he used to really like him, and now he just seems annoyed any time they're mentioned. Tom was picking on people for hating on games like Wingspan just because they get so popular, but it seems that Tom is basically doing the same for this particular publisher / design team.
I think it's quite remarkable that a team of two designers can consistently put out games that are this good and I honestly think everything in their medieval trilogies (besides maybe the original Shipwrights and Explorers) are deserving of a place in the top 100.
Sorry if I'm giving a wrong impression. I just like giving Mike a hard time. Garphill games are great!
"One's Admiral Ackbar impression is a window to the soul" -Mike
We need Blue Moon City and Blue Moon Legends to be reprinted. I love the theme and look on both games. The art and pallette reminds me in a way to Elder Scrolls Morrowind.
I have enjoyed Dune Imperium Base, played w the first exp, then with the first 2, not Immortality yet, got Uprising, and will be excited to try that. I don't think it has to be a one or the other for me, they have the same theme and a lot of overlap but Playing DI has been great, I don't think playing DU will diminish that personally, they can both be good experiences, (I'm assuming I will like DU since I loved DI, I wasn't offended by DU's release but can't fault others for being put off.
I think what put Mike and some people over the edge is DU being so similar to DI, along with the release time being not long after the last expansion, that it then made them retroactively dislike the timeline for the previous expansions timeline for DI and put a bad taste in their mouths. I can see Mike's point, but I also agree with Tom's point overall as far as being fine with extra content being doled out in spurts, but I think I can understand Mike and others may want to know up front what they're getting into and make the choice then vs. 'surprise' expansions. If DU had come out this year instead, with a but more space in between, maybe it would've felt better to some.
So basically I can see both Mike and Tom's point, and I love the fired up discussion! Reminded me of the Sam days as well lol, I say there's nothing wrong with having a strong opinion on something and getting into it! I enjoyed it! Top 100's are always a highlight, keep it up guys!
Uprising did replace the original for me.
happy gaming everyone 😊
You don’t have to buy or play with any new stuff so it shouldn’t impact a rating IMO
I usually, always, agree with Mike. But I don’t understand the love for a game going down simply for other content coming out quickly in different pieces. I’m with Tom on this. I have to admit my biased in saying this is my favorite game of all time, right now, Wayfarers and Dwellings are giving it a run for it’s money, but it is still my favorite, right now.
But anyway, Mike is entitled to his feelings, and I don’t mean to invalidate them. I just don’t understand it. 😅
Doesn't make any sense to me either.
I read all the comments while the video runs. Now I know to pause the video at 22, pop some popcorn and watch the fireworks lol 💥
I agree with Mike on expansions because it gets annoying checking up on your current games alot to see if something is new. "AIN'T NOBODY GOT TIME FOR THAT!"
Whoa! Ole Steiness is in this video? Champions of Midgard (with the expansions) is my absolute favorite competitive game! Awesome!
Now, could they please do a co-op campaign like what Lost Ruins of Arnak did recently? I'd pay big bucks to help kickstart that!
Photosynthesis was an interesting idea with a less than ideal execution. I'm really interested to try Evergreen, it sounds thinky and cool.
My thing with Uprising is why couldn’t there be an upgrade/integration pack for people who don’t want to have to buy an entire other copy of the same game. If it’s essentially a “New Game Plus”, just sell me the plus
100% this.
You'd have to replace nearly everything making it cost at least as much, if not more, than the Uprising box. Why more? It's an economy of scale situation. Splitting the product into 2 SKUs makes it cost more to produce. This lowers the demand for both products which would increase the price of both.
While Uprising isn't a cheap game, it's a relatively affordable one. If you're wanting to "upgrade" to it, then just buy the game.
Fair enough. I wasn’t saying in addition to the standalone game. I was saying instead of. So less arduous than maintaining 2 SKUs. But if there’s that much that’s new it makes sense to just let it be a standalone
Makes sense. I guess it gets people better access to the base game. Instead of making people get this expansion on top of the base
TTR-Europe is 155; TTR-Nordic is 197; TTR-Original is 225... so I'd say those are all "close to to 100 on BGG" in the grand sheme of things.
Definitely with Tom on expansions. I don't want to buy all at once and find out I hate it. Phase expansions in.
I 100% with Mike here, see on 1 side when you buying multiple things you know it beforehand while if you keep putting out content every 3-6 months you left feeling cheated out. Its like you have choice of 2 burgers 1 $20 and one $12 you decide to go for the cheap one and than they start asking you need cheese,ok its extra cash, ok you need onion, you need pickle now (extra cash) and you started to feel cheated as your burger should already come with the things which makes it good and don't charge me extra to make it better, while $20 already have everything that makes it good and you can remove things that you dont' like but you are not cheated into thinking it was good itself.
The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the Dune: Imperium vs. Uprising issue is completely different from releasing tons of expansions, which encourage you to _keep_ the game you love and play it more. A re-make that everyone says is better encourages you to _trash and replace_ the game you love. It's like when a second edition (improved) comes out, but that's usually a long time later with plenty of time for people to have thoroughly worn out their old copy and for the criticisms to gain wide acceptance, so that the new edition can say "we addressed what everyone didn't like". Uprising came out while we were all still foolishly under the impression it was a near-perfect, amazing game that didn't need a second edition, and while our copies are still rather fresh in our collection.
I'm glad to hear some pushback on Mike's take on dune. It seems so inconsistent. And also if you don't like the expansions just don't play them...
Someone really needed to belt out some AC/DC when Mike said "Fisterstruck"
For me Abyss is one of the most underrated games on BGG, 400+ come on! Mike, I'm sure it will go up if you play with the leviathan expension, it's great!
I think you called Uwe Rosenberg “Rosé Uwenberg”. Bahahaha!
Mike's argument was rather flawed BUT he is still correct. I felt the same way. Dune Imperium got two expansions rather quickly: barely rules of one got learned and then played when another release was announced. And I definitely felt the exhaustion when Imperium Uprising was announced. The expansions are decent, but didn't allow the game enough time to breathe for some fans.
Im not that much of a dune imperium fan, but if i wanted to get into it at least I can make an educated decision which product I want and how much of it.
Just imagine if all of it had come out at the same time.
Sucks for all the people who bought DI without being aware of DU - in hindsight their decision was based on incomplete information
@@gaebril131 DI is the same game regardless of DU. If it sucks that you bought it then DU will suck too.
Sure, but if DU is better, then I still made a sub optimal choice. The only time you get to make an educated decision is if both are on the same retail shelves at the same time. Which is the case right now (but was not true in the past).
Cheer up, the new Kemet board is much nicer than the old one! 👍
It’s odd that two expansions and a new standalone have spoiled Mike’s impression of Dune: Imperium, but two expansions and three incompatible standalones didn’t spoil Mike’s impression of Azul.
The new stand alone does replace the original for me.
Mike, the Dune board games are IPs, and I would bet big money that both games were scheduled to come out with each movie. However, since the movie is virtually Dune Part 2, there isn’t a substantial name difference like there would be if it were Star Wars TFA then TLJ. So it’s hard to get too upset with them for this release. However, part of the reason I don’t play MTG anymore is because they nearly doubled their product release while increasing prices and it’s just too tiresome and expensive to keep up, so even though I don’t normally buy board game expansions (because they are sometimes literally the price of an entire new game, and when I have Big Box games I rarely find myself using expansion content anyway because I’m playing with new people), I kinda get the general complaint.
Well now I know how to greet you all when I see you at a convention.
Stick to your guns Mike.
Kinda surprised that _7 Wonders Duel_ fell that much on Zee's list without much of a mention. He just kinda said "This was number 9, and it's now 28", and then made no other mention as to the change of ranking, or why he thought he'd rated it lower this year.
You three have the best chemistry!
Big fan of the dice tower and everyone who hosts these top 100’s!
I do want to friendly like point out to Mike that dune: imperium is created by Paul dennan who also created clank.
Clank came out in 2016. In 2017 clank in space came out as well as an expansion for clank. In 2018 3 more expansions for clank came out. In 2019 clank legacy came out, an expansion for clank in space, 2 clank acquisitions packs and a clank expansion. In 2020 the 6 player expansion for clank came out. In 2021 an expansion for clank in space came out. In 2022 clank catacombs came out. And after its first year off, in 2024 clank legacy 2 will come out.
My point being, this designer LOVES expansions!
He definitely toned it way down with dune. And I love that he planned ahead for dune uprising to come out, which would be a familiar board but allow for some changes to the game and for 6 players to play, while also still allowing both expansions to be used.
I think he may be my favorite designer. And a big piece of that is his expansions that feel fun, but are never too expensive.
Of course you are welcome to feel however you want about a game and its expansions. But this one has a history that definitely made me aware that these would be coming.
All those Clanks are totally different games…
The two Dune games are 95% the same.
Tom is legit upset when talking about Dune Imperium. 🤣🤣🤣
I'm guessing that too many bones has all these expanshion in one kickstarter, so it doesn't feel like it's as many products as it is.
The NS Beast Army IS super cool. One of my favourites.
Wow, you can pretty much timestamp when that Bang kicked in… #22
Wasn’t mice and mystics the first with a spiral book.
Regarding Dune, I'm on Tom's side. Nobody is forcing you to buy the expansions and if it bothers you that expansion exist that you don't own and you have FOMO, then it sounds like a you problem.
LOL, 22 Dune is when the energy drink fully kicks in and puts Tom into berserker mode!
Nonsensical logic turned Tom speechless, and he almost pulled his hat down over his head and had it poke out of the top like an old timey cartoon! 😂
Tom’s right, of course. Get Mike some key lime food so he can think straight again!
(Mike, I don’t like shelling out money for a series of endless content either. Well, besides Unmatched. Besides that, let me spend $200 once. Not $30 here and there every few months, like for Arkham Horror. Oh, wait…)
Still love A Feast for Odin!
I ordered and paid for Monumental with expansions 3 years ago and I never got it. Tried to reach out to the designer and developer, but they never answered 😮💨 Website is down as well
30. Dominion
29. Time's Up!
28. Le Havre
27. San Juan (Second Edition)
26. Tzolk'in: The Mayan Calendar
25. Heroscape
24. Rhino Hero: Super Battle
23. Skull King
22. Rolling Freight
21. Blood Rage
the classics!
I'm with Mike about Dune
I actually think the board from Beyond the Sun looks better than the box cover.
Is the only difference between retail and kickstarter Monumental that the KS comes with minis? No other exclusive content?
The world now eagerly awaits the release of Pandemic: Colon.
Mike is so fun 😅
(Ba-bom-a-bom-bom)
(Ba-bom-a-bom-bom)
(Ba-bom-a-bom-bom)
(Ba-dang-a-dang-dang)
(Ba-ding-a-dong-ding)
Bloooooo Moooooon City
Where can you actually buy Pitchcar?
I agree with Mike. Too many expansions make me less interested in a game.
Mean Mike is the new Sam. 🤣
Zee peaked my interest about Empire of the North a couple years back and the game is fantastic! I wish there were a deluxe version though 🤞
piqued
if any popular video game waited more than 4 years... lol
I'm on Mike's side in the Dune: Imperium debate. Not being a board game reviewer, I'm not getting a game before it's even out. I want to wait until I know more about it and what everyone thinks about it and maybe get a chance to try it. And then there's something new! And then more newness! And way more! Now I feel if I want to get involved, it's going to be a money pit. That's why the only Zombicide game I own is Night of the Living Dead. I don't want no Dune: Dominium. I'd rather spend that money on three other games.
That said, Mike is also the person that owns like 27 seasons of Final Girl, so I may be on his side, but it's for a completely different reason!
Azul over Ticket to Ride anytime!
(Pretty much any game over Ticket to Ride, my least favorite gateway game)
For a good time, focus on Zee during Toms 22 😂
I'm with Zee on Feast for Odin, except that I did played it. Twice... and I don't want to see it ever again x'D
Only played Dune Imperium 1x, really didn't like it. . . And I really wanted to, and expected to . . was very disappointed.
Best transition. 1:28:19 😂😂😂
Saying the Dune: Imperium releases were over 4 years is specious. The game shipped in December 2020 if preordered. D:I-Uprising came out in November of 2023. That is marginally less than 3 years. For me, a 3 year old game feels new, so I get Mike's feeling on this. I now have a 3 year old game that is outdated. Sure, it is still a great game but I can't help thinking "yeah, but you aren't Uprising" when I look at it.
Both games feel different enough to play imo. Dune Imperium focuses more on deckbuilding and has often some interesting plays. It plays a bit slower than Uprising. Uprising is much more combat oriented. If you're comparing the base games I give the edge to uprising because all the locations and intrigue cards are more useful and better balanced. I can see myself playing Dune Imperium with the Rise of Ix expansion instead of uprising. Also, I much more prefer releasing games with no expansions than brand new games with the base game and 2-3 expansions already included. I don't understand that Mike prefers that over expansion or new releases over the years.
Many games come out with a new edition after three years. It does replace the original for me though.
Four years is way too short a time for a game to release two expansions and an upgrade pack and a big box AND a 1.25 version of the same game. The expansions al0ne would be fine but to release the ame game with a couple tweaks in only four years of its life?
I really want to try Bad Company.
1:16:35 lol the camera guy
Istanbul is a cleaner version of Blue Moon City. Just go with Istanbul.
I understand some complaints about Dune Uprising, but I think it's really weird to have your opinion of an original game decrease, because a lot of new content exists. One can choose to disregard the new content. . . This goes for their comments on Everdell too, but I guess those big boxes actively keep them from playing the game which is a little more understandable.
For me, personally, I don't usually mind expansions (though I do agree with Zee from a previous video that that can sometimes make a game harder to get back to the table, as with Everdell, Terraforming Mars, etc.). But this 2.0 version of Dune: Imperium has really bothered me. It's the company telling us that they can do that game better (and all the reviews agreeing), and so I have to think of my current game as like a prototype or lesser version of what I _could_ be playing if I gave even more money. And then, if I did, I would probably agree with the reviewers and move on to the newer version. I really wish they had just put out a different game, and let Dune: Imperium be what it is with its two expansions.
Of course, lots of people feel the opposite way, and that's totally fine. But, I sympathize with Mike on this one, and I do feel less excited to get my game to the table these days.
Expansions easily can give the vibe of the base game feeling incomplete. Heck some games are released with an expansion already planned. It is parceled out to make a bit more cash. This happens in kickstarters a lot and bothers some people which is understandable.
Is Uprising the “version 2.0” or is there a literal new printing that changes the original? I thought Uprising was an expansion and not stand alone… (?)
I agree in theory.
But there's something to be said about the idea that an expansion implies the designer themselves didn't think the base game was complete.
It's one of my favorite things about the Brass games - they're so finely tuned that there's probably no way to add expansions without making the game worse.
My understanding is that Uprising replaces base Imperium. If that is the case, it is not a standalone expansion, it is a reimplementation of the base game that is compatible with the expansions. I don't think the issue is sinister intent, more disappointment that such a recent game is essentially being replaced by a Version 2.
Even with the app, I still don't understand how to play Root.
I agree with Mike about the Dune thing being confusing. Like the Uprising Rulebook just straight up does not recommend mixing with the original game box at all. When mixing in the expansions, it just recommends imagining a spy space where one would be in Uprising. Why not just include the expansions with Uprising and make it a complete edition?
coloma 😊 reverse busting 🌟
I think the real point that Mike is pointing out about Dune Imperium is that the expansions and then the Uprising thing, coming very shortly after, all seems to try correcting some issues about the original game. So the customer/player may feel as the original game was rush out and put on market while not ready. So, buying a game not ready and then having to buy some expansions correcting the game sucks a little bit... everything from expansions coud be already integrated in the base game. It add few content at a big price.
Tom perfectly voiced why i did not enjoy Bad Company. It bogs down with all of the minutia of allocating the dice and moving the car and moving on the track and collecting different things ans passing the necklace thing around. Its just too much for that type of game. In Space Base the active plager rolls, everyone moves their income markers and the active plaher decides if he wants to buy a card. It's exactly what im looking for in that type of a game.
Decaf Tom😂