Pat's Opinion on Lunging
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ก.ค. 2024
- We recently got a question from a viewer about "lunging for respect." I'll bet most of you can already guess what Pat's response will be but we wanted to make a video just to clarify his thoughts on this subject. In other news, Chinaco got to go to his second branding. I wish I could tell you that I got all kinds of cool footage but we had a family emergency so I had to leave with only a couple of short clips which I've included at the tail end of this video. If you are curious about what we do and what we offer in terms of gear, head over to our website, www.thedisciplinedride.com . Please take a moment to hit the Like button, Subscribe to our channel, and Share with your friends. Thank you!
Clinton Anderson is the king of repetition. He seems to believe in laterally flexing your horse (from the saddle) over and over and over again until the horse's front (head and neck) are effectively disconnected from its body. I audited a clinic once, taught by one of his "star graduates" and I remember very little except she had everyone cantering in a big circle FOREVER. No clue what that was about, except it seemed pointless. The riders clearly weren't working on anything. Just cantering in a circle. Running out the clock, maybe. I'm sure you don't/won't comment on CA, which is fine, but we can 😂
A friend of mine is a CA follower and he told me many times that you cannot spend too much time flexing a horse. I knew better, and when I was riding one of his horses and the horse wanted to go forward when I wanted him to go left, he flexed his neck left as he been trained to do, and kept on going forward.
Yes, you absolutely can over do the neck flexing! I bought that horse and taught him to respond to legs and keep his body in line with his head.
Chinaco has become a very handsome dude. Looks like he knows what he is doing. It has been great watching his progress over the years. Thanks for taking us along for the ride.
Back in my school days my gym teacher made us run around the track
in circles as punishment… I didn’t like it.
Wow! Seeing Chinaco all grown up really made me smile! What a beautiful guy! Oh and you too Pat!
It tickles me to lean you are getting on the grazing/new approaches to ranching.and you did it without the buzzwords, too: whether it is sustainable or regenerative don't matter what matters is paying attention to the grass and not being afraid to move your cattle around at the right time. Plus a ton of other stuff, so be sure to talk about dung beetles. I'm all about the cow poop here in NE New Meico, and we want more of those beetles which may mean less pesticides and maybe an end to the horn fly problem where I day-work. Thanks for all you do, Pat and Deb!
I've been watching you for several years. I'm from Southern Oklahoma.My great-granduncle was the first to fall on Utah Beach WW2. Pfc David F. Atcuson 90th Infantry Division.
Really appreciate the comments on fear. Yes, sometimes you do need to just get on and deal with it, but also need to use common sense and "not enter the bronc riding." Very good advice.
Chinaco❤ What a good handsome smart boy!
Untracking the hind legs is my cue. Learned that from you with your story about your aunt. Thanks y'all
I appreciate your practicality and no non-sense approach. Sometimes I question what I learn when working with my young horse, information like this helps me correct what I'm doing to help him develop.
Having been raised on a hack stable and in horse dealing, I spread my wings at 16 and worked for show stables in SE PA. To cut this short, to this day if I want to see horses abused all I have to do is go to a show stable or the warm up pen at a show. 57 years later, basically no change.
I really appreciate your guys channel. You guys remind me of having a grandma and grandpa that I never had around lol. You share so much wisdom, humor when needed, and such good advice and true horsemanship, no bull, just reality. Thanks for your videos, I have learned a lot from you over the years. You taught me what real ground work was, and truly, in part because of videos like yours, I’m able to ride my mustang in a neck rope and bridle-less a lot because I learned to really talk to my horse and have a fun partnership.
Pat & Deb help hotline open for calls, service charges may apply. Love the stories, keep the videos coming.
Appreciate the additional clarification on lunging. I've watched many videos (all of yours I think...) and read a lot of resources and still find it challenging to identify the useful ground training activities. Since I learned about untracking from you, I now do it every time before I get on. I've found it always informative to the horse's state of mind and has usually informed me as to what I can expect at least on the first part of my ride! Also, I've really enjoyed watching you train Chinaco over the series of videos! Thanks for all the effort you and Deb put into your content. Blessings to you both and I hope the winter treats you well!
My kids showed hunters in AQHA and nearly everyone I saw at those shows lunged their horses to “warm them up” before getting on. I told my kids to just untrack their horses hind quarters and maybe do a few other things on the ground before getting on to make sure their horse didn’t have a hump in their back, then get on and go for a little ride to warm up. That mostly seemed to work out much better for them than lunging mindless circles on a lunge line.
Pat and Deb, always the best on so many levels. Gracias.
thank you two
Wonderful video; thank you. And boy howdy, yes....Chinaco is so cool; loved watching his development. On the subject of round penning and lunging. I remember seeing a very old video some years ago where Mr Tom Dorrance was telling a story about a student saying "he needed to go run his horse around the round pen to get the buck out". Mr Dorrance said, "heck, why would you do that---just leave the buck in". haha
I like my horse fresh and ready to work!
Amen!! And again I say Amen!!
Thanks for the updates & the video of you and Chinaco~ How gratifying to see his behavior & rapport with you . . . Yeah! Blessings v
Thank you Pat I agree 10000 percent I so enjoy you and your knowledge.
good session
thank you
Sorry to hear about the passing of your friend. God’s blessings and comfort to you and to all her friends and family.
Love the vice. I really appreciate the comments about lunging. I've never understood it, so I've never done it, but I did wonder if I was missing out on something as everyone else seemed to be doing it. Untracking a horse definitely! Do it every time. My barn is small and the saddling area is quite small. Whenever I lead a saddled horse outside from that stall I always walk looking over my shoulder. I haven't had a horse blow its cork at that moment in years, but it is engrained in me to be watchful.
I longed my second horse a few weeks before getting on his back. He had not been handled, not even halter trained before I bought him. I used the longe line to teach Joey word commands and to give him exercise because I kept him in a stall (something I will not do these days). I also took him on walks, so built our trust and communication that way. After 6 weeks of that, the first time I got on his back (with just a halter and lead rope on him, no saddle), he barely lifted his head from grazing to look at me, then when I asked him to move off, with those word cues he learned on the longe, he just said, ok, let's walk off. There was a little bit of that wobbly search for balance a gentle horse has, but that's all.
I love that you said working on a ranch is trail riding with cows in front of you. So many cowboys sneer at "lowly trail riders".
Agreed! Thanks Pat, for sharing a conscious opinion on the subject. I also appreciate Debb for sharing how those who are naturally a little afraid, change the dynamic toward horses. Being self-truthful helps the situation quite a bit.
When I worked at the Grand Canyon, I saw daily display of both fearful or confident riders and what they do to their mule or horse to make themselves feel more assured. Lunging was a topic I've heard quite a lot while I guided people.
-So long, folks.
Sorry I wasn't more talkative and didn't share much on my cattle when you asked 😄. To be honest I was in shock to be speaking with you Pat 😅. Thank you and I hope you enjoy your new tack for many moons to come 😘.
Thanks for this conversation from both of you. It is a good reminder of what I’ve learned about lunging, but sometimes get convinced to try it again. 🙄. Pretty sure my horse does not really appreciate it.
Chinaco looks great. What a soft expression and kind demeanor he has. Certainly a credit to how you’ve brought him along.
Hello Pat and Deb. Hope all is well. Dennis Capell is on utube, and shows and explains why he lunges a horse for its attention, respect and softness.He has as many candles on his birthday cake like you and me. 😅 Because we are all students of the horse, knowledge is power, for the horse to understand and humans to stay safe. Thanks for all your information as well. Time , patience, time, patience.
There is more than one way to skin a cat. I think a lot of it depends on what temperament your horse is to begin with. Some of these race bred and cutting bred horses can be extremely flighty/ fractious and work better after a respectful and knowledgeable lunge. When done properly it's actually a training technique rather than run them into the ground so they won't hurt me deal. My horses actually enjoy being longed. When I was younger I thought the people longing their horses were sissys and not real cowboys so I took pride in never longing my horse. Not longing can be done and should be done here and there so longing isn't a crutch. As I have matured and gained more knowledge and worked with my mentor Danny Lopez he taught me the respect received by a proper longing. The type of horses that Pat and Deb ride look to be more cold blooded and laid back. If I've ridden my horse the day before I can usually skip the longing. I ride race bred and cutting bred horses that can seriously hurt you if you don't keep them rode down. So if my horses have had more than 3 days off I'm longing for safety and to get their mind back on track. I'm 67 now with 49 years in the saddle and am a forever student. I don't disagree with Pat and Deb but I would keep in mind the breed and temperament of your animal concerning lunge or not.
I know that many people think they need to use lunging in their programs. That's why I titled the video "Pat's Opinion on Lunging." I appreciate you sharing your experiences. I just wanted to add that our horses aren't cold blooded. Pat has started Thoroughbred race horses, appendix bred polo colts, and lots of Hancock, Blue Valentine, and Driftwood colts. He's never used lunging. He does use the round pen to start colts. But he's usually done riding in the round pen in 3-4 days. That's not to say that he doesn't use the round pen for other things like desensitizing with the flag and tarp. It's one of the few flat spots on our property! But I think you are mistaking the calm demeanor of our horses with being cold blooded. Chinaco is a prime example. If you aren't familiar with Iberian horses, they can be a challenge. The ones with docile temperaments didn't survive the bullring. Anyway, I do appreciate your perspective and I wanted to clarify the cold blooded comment.
I understand@@PatnDebPuckett
THANK GOD SOME3BODY KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING. IM IN UK, WORKED THE SAME 40 YEARS. PEOPLE THINK IM MAD WISH I WAS IN USA.
Chinaco looks like he's been doing his job for ever. Thank you for showing this video Pat & Deb.
🐴👍
We have used it for years in the halter industry, keeps the babies in shape and well fit and most older horses don’t have ven get ridden.
I agree with not needing or understanding the lunging or round penning before riding. If you need to do that, then you have not trained them well, In my opinion. I was looking at a horse to buy one time and they said, he just needs to be lunged before riding. I was like, why would I need to do that if he is trained to ride. Did not buy him. I was never raised that way. I just got on and rode horses. If unsafe, I would quickly get off. Common sense. Thank you for making this video.
I lunge before I ride. My mare is SUPER FRESH, and she rollbacks like a cutter. So hot + agility isn't fun 😂 I get her thinking on the ground, warming her up and then get into riding. I don't warm up undersaddle.
God I wish you were my trainer...I'm too novice to take your clinic, but maybe one day...
That pony in the Hamptons, that is thousands of horses and ponies every weekend. They will lunge and ride them to exhaustion then give them a calming paste. Many horses get so foot sore that they can't stand without constantly shifting their feet. They are lame but trot sound because they are equally sore in each limb.
Can I just say that I have a Horse crush on Chinaco? Ever since I 1st laid Eyes on him. I also enjoy Deb's interjections...more Deb, please! RE: Longing/Lunging: I use it to warm my horse up (muscles, joints) mostly at a walk, and help keep them in shape during the winter when long rides aren't always possible. Mostly it's ground work, untracking and/ or liberty work, but when I don't have pasture access, I like to get them stretched and relaxed and moving.
Beautiful People
Beautuful marriage
You can take any training concept and either do it wrong or do it right.
I use round pen to let the horse tel me when he is ready to stop bucking and start using his mind.
We don't want our horses to buck after the first saddling.
Guess I'm glad I never could afford a round pen, I just ride outside in the woods, pasture and county road.
I went to a clinic a few months ago. I took a throughbred I was retraining and the clinician wanted to argue with me because I wouldnt lunge the horse for an hour to "calm" him. Thats not calm is exhausted
Love this video and the stories I hate to admit I do lunge and round pen my horses 🤦🏼♀️ and I know it’s pointless having growing up riding my dad broke in horses having never lunged or round pen a single one we only untracked them then of we went. As I got older I found CA and was like oh my dad didn’t do it right but actually really he did. Now in stuck in this roundpen life 😂 if only I rode more round penned less I would have horses I can ride!! 😅
Oh and funny the other day I finally got my horse back in the round pen and when I asked for a canter he bucked a little bit and I was like oh I sure am glad I round penned him first and then I didn’t even ride him he needs more round penning 🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️ I’m a disaster! 😂 note to self ride your horse
@@ALWAYZSYDWAYZ You have a great sense of humor! Thank you for your honesty. We've seen people who drive their horses around the round pen before each ride and the horses buck and play every single time. It becomes a habit and the horses think it's playtime. Instead, you might try doing a groundwork session. I'm sure we have a bunch of videos on the way we approach groundwork. But if you'll do groundwork on the end of a 12 foot lead rope, keeping your horse's mind engaged and his spine bent to the inside of the circle, then back and forth on the fence, then untrack him, you might find that your horse gets calm and settled and you'll see that you can just get on and ride your horse. Good luck!
What do you mean by untracking?
I cannot lunge my TWH or she will not gait per a trainer in Tenn. I do not lunge my OTTBs because it will mess up their hocks. I just get on. when new horses I will go through the ground work first for however long I have to.
Where is the video of the trainer abusing the horse?
There is a lot of good in lunging if it's done properly. Study the Spanish Riding School to see how it's done correctly.
We've seen the Spanish Riding School in person, in the palace and behind the scenes. The Doma Classica advocates and uses lunging in a surcingle.The Doma Vaquera does not. The Classica also uses a contraption that pulls the horse's head down each time the hind leg moves back. That's not anything we're interested in doing.
From Oregon. Are you still using ASEA? I really would like to know.
I love horses but haven't been around them in years. Owned my own for a short while, sure miss that. Yeah, I'd rather ride a working horse. Trails are boring. Always western saddle.
There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding longeing in these comments. Yes, it's an O, not a U. I don't think I've ever seen Clinton Anderson use a longe line for training, just longer lead ropes and not in the pen. When he uses a round pen, he does not run the horse around forever. 5 minutes to get the vinegar out of the horse so it is ready to listen and the rest to get into the horse's head to walk, trot and lope in each direction. That can be done with body language rather than words if you want. Then get on the horse. A well trained horse doesn't need to be in a round pen at all. Clinton has won the Road To The Horse and got the horse rideable in three days, so I doubt he would disagree with that comment. His goal is to get a horse VERY broke for an average rider, not a cowboy. There are good uses for longeing with a line, including teaching newbie riders a good seat (cantering) and for vaulting. Other than that, I never saw much use for them. If a horse has been in a round pen enough, it's not difficult to get them to do the same thing at liberty in an arena.
Clinton Anderson is abusive to horses. Period.
You are right. The misunderstanding here is that the woman did not properly define "lunging with respect". Anderson's 'lunging for respect' is getting the horse to change directions on the circle. This is VERY useful when training a "pushy" horse. When a horse does not respect your space, getting the horse to change direction while moving is helpful. I have used this technique with good success. I DO agree with Pat that lunging a horse in mindless circles just to tire him out is a waste -- just makes the horse resent you. So please, Pat, the proper definition of "lunging for respect" is to get the horse to change direction -- not the only way, but an effective way. The woman who brought this to you did not elaborate enough. Regarding Clinton Anderson, him and Pat Parelli have probably helped more riders than all the other trainers combined. As a result, many are jealous of their commercial success. I believe a rider can pick useful techniques from whomever, but are not relegated to use every single thing they teach. It's up to what works best for the rider, the particular horse and whatever keeps the rider safe. Pat's gift to me is in handling cattle which is seldom addressed by the others, the exception being Buck B. Thanks for what you do, Pat!
We also start our horses in a round pen and by Day 3 we are outside at the walk, trot, and canter. Our goal is to produce a willing, happy, sound horse (mind and body). Mr Anderson's goal is to appeal to a certain kind of rider. His last interview, full of profanity and insults, tells me everything that I thought I knew about the man. When he was young, he got famous too early and stopped learning and his ego got the better of him. Instead of always looking for new and better ways to communicate with a horse, he got more and more brutal with snubbing posts and full sized truck tires, etc. He wears his horses down. If they survive, he has a brain dead performance horse as the result. Your comment about his horses being broke for the average rider, not cowboys, shows a lack of. understanding of what real cowboys want in their horses. When you're miles from home with nothing but your horse and a 1000 pound cow on the end of your rope, you really need a horse that is broke, gentle, and knows his job. People see trainers like Mr Anderson and equate them with horsemen like Pat just because they see the hat and a round pen. They don't see the nuanced approach of a man like Pat. Sorry but that is just the truth if you will look closer.
@@cplkirk1 When we were going down the road full time doing clinics, we got the majority of our students from Mr Parelli and later on from Mr Anderson because people were tired of spending a ton of money on a bunch of overpriced products and being in a clinic with so many people that nobody got any attention. We made quite a good living for a number of years without taking advantage of people. So we're not jealous of their commercial success. Just disappointed that people spent so much for so little.
@PatnDebPuckett Yes, I agree that he is not the best example these days. I was going on what I saw from years ago. You never saw anything brutal and certainly no swearing in those days. I wonder if he got in with a different crowd when he started training for performance horses. Cowboys are not afraid to ride out a few bucks after leaving the pen, though they would prefer not to do that. That was my point. Your methods take time, and it is unfortunate that it is not done more often. There are people who think roping the legs is brutal (I do not). I take what I think is appropriate from many different sources.
I haven’t seen a show event yet that doesn’t abuse the horse
If you are wise enough to eat the wheat and spit out the shafts then you’ll be in a pretty good position
Why do you use the expression“lunge the hell out of them”? I do believe that is wrong. But there is such a thing as a happy medium. I’ve had Arabian stallions that two minutes of lunging reminded them that they were going to work. And it seemed the best way to do that. I think the saddest thing is when trainers use the exact same method on every horse. I don’t use round pen, but if I came upon a horse where I thought it might help, I guess I would. Is another tool, and there are too many people that misuse the tool, but it still has a purpose
Still have to disagree. I believe you might have gotten better results with a few minutes of quality groundwork on a 12 foot lead rope because that kind of work engages the mind of the horse with the goal of not having to do more than untrack your horse and step on. It's a difference in opinion and possibly culture. The vast majority of people we have witnessed use lunging to tire the horse out each and every time they step on. It becomes a mind numbing routine born of fear. We need to be able to saddle our horses, untrack them, step on and do a job. Younger horses get a bit more time on the ground but the goal is ultimately to not need it. Also, the name of the video is Pat's Opinion on Lunging because we were asked about the subject by a viewer so watch this video with that in mind. Thank you for your comment!
Iam a life lounger Pat, so much I can see before I mount up, eyes always see it, suggest a time limit, I go with perfect cues my pony finishes record time penning. I Challeng All,.. 9:25 my horse ques out quicker than yours, Iam a Lifer on Lounging,, way to play controlled with horsey, too
More horses ruined in round pens than by any other method,it’s fight or flight,so now they really don’t trust you,why should they,you just proved you are the apex predator
Lungeing for respect is not the same as lungeing, as purported by Clinton Anderson. Some love him; more despise him and his training "techniques"....
In lungeing, the human is disconnected from the horse. The only way to control the horse is through voice commands. When we ride, we don't use voice commands. We want the horse to respond to our bodies. We want to be able to release when the horse does the right thing. The people we have observed lunge their horses in order to fill in a gap that they haven't addressed in the horse's training. In addition, the horse is asked to work in a relatively small circle without the aid of the rider teaching the horse to be balanced in a frame. The horse learns to lean on the surcingle if one is being used and if not, he is not being asked to carry himself in collection on a circle. So many things cannot be accomplished on a lunge line and leads to a horse being dull and resentful. The same time can be spent doing a few quality minutes of groundwork and then getting on the horse's back.
There's Lunging, which is just making the horse go in circles, and then there's lunging with respect, which is getting the horse tuned in with you. Voice commands aren't used, it's based purely off of body language. Getting the horse to yield the HQ, FQ, ribs on a circle. Rollbacking, getting a horse to collect when changing directions.
The Anderson lunging isn't about getting a horse tired, it's about getting the horse thinking. Wether you're riding or on the ground you ask the horse tasks to get connected. I also like to do a quick lunge to see if my horse is lame at all, moving properly, and usually I can see if there's anything I need to work on.
Chinaco looks like he could do any job in any discipline. Ever think about trying him out in other jobs just for fun?
How bout pack,n a horse that play,s up and buck,s nothing wrong with wearing them out before U ride them wether U call it lungeing or working them , tracking or whatever fresh fat horse that U know will buck is better to get it,s head low that step on a rocket and get launched into the stratosphere, because reentry is surely ruff !
Or if U can ride lunge them Offa there back , leg either side and brain in the middle most people have fat fresh horses no work and can,t ride outa fear of getting bucked down , but U doing great job towards helping people overcome there relationship,s with there horses
"Lungeing for Respect" is a Clinton Anderson term. The whole premise is to not to mindlessly go around in circles; it's to complete many changes of direction, always keeping the horses head turned in toward the handler rather than allowing the horse to turn away and change direction. Keeping the horse busy rather than aiming to exhaust the horse.
And why is this preferable to doing these same exercises on their backs? I’m sorry but the vast majority of people who lunge their horses do so because they believe it will wear the horse down and somehow make the horse too tired to misbehave. Also we don’t ride our horses with voice commands. We want our horses to respond to the seat and legs of the rider which is not possible from
the end of a lunge line.
@@PatnDebPuckett na. You are giving the horse a release when it is coming toward you. I took a BLM mustang from crazy to calm in three hours. Fast forward ten years and anytime I go out in my 200 acre pasture he runs up to me.
@@ShinkleGunDog That can be accomplished in the round pen. I'm sure you've watched our videos on starting horses. It's a very different concept than running a horse in a circle to wear him out so you don't have to address the holes in his foundation.
@@PatnDebPuckett I have watched your stuff. It is very similar. Getting a horse's attention. Applying pressure when needed and releasing pressure when needed.
@@PatnDebPuckett
I'm not supporting Mr. Anderson's technique but I have used it. There are parts of his techniques that are useful, definitely not all.
Mr. Anderson says that he gets the horse used to the cues before he mounts to try to avoid wrecks.
It's similar to what many trainers do, it is just a catchy title that Mr. Anderson's PR person concocted.
The premise with lunging for respect is not much different than what Pat teaches. Mr. Anderson wants to move the horse front, back, side to side. He also teaches to "untrack" the hind and fore quarters.
In practice, it is very similar to some of the ground work that Pat teaches, Anderson just takes it considerably farther.
I would add that all trainers develope their own processes, things that work for them personally.
I would ask that you watch Mr. Anderson's video about "lunging for respect". There are parts that are very similar to what you guys do...
God bless! Glad you both are healthy now...
😊😊😊
Hello sir
Tony
Here
I will begin by saying i usually agree with your approach, and i gleen a wealth of knowledge and procedures from your channel
I totally disagree with the round pen statement lt is a effective tool and approach to horse mastering and schooling you have to be confined in a space controlled for the schooling
I think we get misled by assuming that everyone level of knowledge and approach is of the SAVANT i hope it is safe to say you are SAVANT IN THIS LANE
Moreover once again i totally disagree with you and the round pen approch alot of your viewers are getting PROJECTS AS MOUNTS not a horse like CHINACHO thats breeding is of the results that you have accomplished every one can not achieve that in your manner safety is first people need the round pen and LUNGING YOU MUST MOVE A MOUNTS FEET THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO ACHIEVE WHAT EVER YOU ARE AFTER IN MY OPINION
We all know that opinions are all like assholes we all have one but this opinion has worked for me a many of years and i have some very nice mounts thx. Just my opinion you are the one with the youtube show so i do not agree at all on your stance of lunging you are recommending someone getting hurt or killed bumping and one regin stops do not work if you have never performed those meaunevers before thx.
Thx.
Concerned
I think you misunderstood the point we were trying to make. We start our horses in a round pen. But once they are past a certain point, we no longer use it. We just untrack our horses and get on. What we don’t recommend is the use of the round pen or lunge line every time you get on to wear the horse out or to school the horse without the benefit of a rider on his back to provide a release when the horse is correct.
There is a difference in the horses you are training compared to the horses we have in Texas. Each to his own on how to start colts or filly’s.
Absolutely to each his own. Everyone who throws his leg over horses for that first ride gets to make their own choices because as far as I know there’s only one seat in the saddle. That’s why I named the video “ Pat’s Opinion on Lunging.”