EPCOT: Would it Have Worked? A Roundtable Discussion
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ส.ค. 2024
- A roundtable discussion about EPCOT, the Experimental Prototype Community Of Tomorrow.
Hosted by David Greelish, writer of "Is There a Walt Disney-Steve Jobs Connection? They were more alike than you probably ever imagined" techland.time.c...
About Me: www.classiccomp...
With:
Sam Gennawey, author of "Walt and the Promise of Progress City," "The Disneyland Story: The Unofficial Guide to the Evolution of Walt Disney’s Dream" and "Universal versus Disney: The Unofficial Guide to American Theme Parks' Greatest Rivalry" www.amazon.com/...
/ sam.gennawey
Christian Moran, documentary filmmaker and author.
Documentary: "Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow: The Futurism of Walt Disney" • Great Big Beautiful To...
Book: "Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow: Walt Disney and Technology" www.amazon.com/...
www.christianmo...
Imagining this city is exciting and the same feeling I get when I think of the World's Fair. I wish this city existed and the World's Fair still brought the world together and made the future futuristic and fun.
Futuristic and fun are the key words my friend, and this place would have radiated with it.
The reason I think it would have been a huge success is that it would have attracted the best and the brightest workers in the world. They could have put their heads together and dominated the Tech world. Essentially, I think if he built this, Orlando would have probably been the tech center of the world instead of Silicon Valley. If they came out with one product that dominated the market, the price of this city would be very small in comparison to the profits they could have made. Without considering the innovation that would have happened and solely looking at it as a real estate investment, it probably wouldn't have made sense, but the ideas that would have been developed in EPCOT would have easily made the project worthwhile.
Yes, like a giant incubator.
Want to know profit wise. 5-7 trillion a year due to the space program which Walt wanted to build and colonize the moon and Mars. I just done another one just a few months ago 25-50 trillion a year, Walt would have mined asteroids and planets and would have had mineral and resource rights to the planets.
Except that, realistically, all the “best and the brightest workers in the world” would’ve … wanted to build their own E.P.C.O.T. complexes, and not to work for and work in somebody else’s. At best they might’ve stayed a year or two, to steal any other people’s ideas that they could, before absconding to some other place to raise seed capital and then launch their own thing. And of course the majority of said ventures would fail, just like they do in our present world, because without coordination and the incentive to cooperate with others, ultimately most things fall apart.
Bottom line:
Walt Disney designed a utopian city out of his own imagination in hopes to make the world a better place. By placing interest in new technology and focusing on the optimistic possibilities led by effective leadership, the plans would solve practically every problem we have today. An idea that would have made our world today very different, possible a turning point in world history, was mindlessly canceled because of money and lack of faith.Walt Disney in my opinion,was possibly the greatest man who ever lived. He was a dreamer and innovator who changed my world, and countless others.
I don't think it would have been as utopian as it may seem though... Walt was still very in-tune and connected with commerce and industry (which led a lot of the project beyond his own imagination), and EPCOT ultimately would have been an ongoing World's Fair of sorts. There's nothing, in my opinion, on the record that indicates Walt's best interests would have been for the residents (who would have essentially been guinea pigs/cogs in the machine), and not for the corporations involved.
Beyond that, he certainly wasn't the first nor the last to think of better ways to plan, structure, and build cities that would benefit everyone (residents AND corporations).
Not to imply he was a bad man or anything, there's not really an ethical quandary there, but just saying.
I agree. But even though Walt was an entrepreneur and businessman, he always went the extra mile to inspire and spread happiness to others even if it did drain their banks.
Ha ha. Right. I think big commerce and a more inspired way of living can certainly coexist. It's unfortunate that for most of us we have to choose one or the other. It at least seems that people like Walt took great leaps to try and marry the two and create a mutually beneficial relationship.
I know right, the truth hurts. But this world could use more people like Walt, I'm just curious if our world is ready for the ideas he and so many others had.
Designed to make more money, nothing else.
I've always been a bit annoyed that Disney Corporation did not try to implement Walt Disney's vision. I was not aware that EPCOT was not supposed to be a "real" city, but housing for a transient population of Disney and affiliate employees. I think it would have worked.
I AM confused about the remarks about having schools though. Just have all the schools on the company be private, some run by the church congregations on the premises and some by the company directly. There would have been no need for a public school district at all.
Richard Bonomo why no succession plan?
As it's stated in the first two words of their acronym: Experimental and Prototype, EPCOT was supposed to be a R&D and model for urban development so communities, cities, municipalities, etc. across the country could draw from its concepts. The only way they could implement their vision was by having a high degree of autonomy, completely ridden of any county, municipal and to a certain degree also state regulations. So before purchasing the land, they presented their plan and petition for such level of autonomy to the Florida Legislation, and it was granted. Unfortunately, after Walt Disney's death, the project was cancelled. It would had been very interesting to see the level of efficiency an entire municipality surrounded by a 40 square mile private
property could attain with virtually no government regulation. Although, to a certain extend that is actually possible today, by taking into account the level of autonomy they have within the perimeter of all the Disney land where they have their own sewer and recycle systems, as well as their own power plant, police and fire departments and one of the most advanced trauma centers in the country. Essentially, they are a self-contained, self-funded community, highly productive and efficient, generating a high level of revenue for the state and surrounding communities, and without drawing on government resources. Certainly admirable; unless of course you are an Obama kind of guy. :) Sorry, couldn't help myself. LOL!
Good question. Perhaps Walt assumed his brothers would be motivated by the same vision to carry on. Apparently they were just motivated by $$. That is how it seems to me, anyway.
I don't believe Walt would have necessarily had schools run by congregations like so many church /schools today. Is there any documentation supporting that, I wonder?
+Charlie Rose: I have no idea if he was open to that idea or not. I simply noted that if the schools were privately and/or ecclesiastically run, there would be no need for a school district and the attendant political matters that would have interfered with EPCOT's autonomy. I have no idea if this was discussed, or even thought of.
Interesting point near the end about how we need leaders, or inspiring reference figures like Walt out there. I completely agree, and I agree with Sam that having conversations like this, that explore and celebrate this spirit is something that helps.
I was searching my brain for the person who most emulates the spirit that Walt Disney was such an excellent example of, and I could only think of Elon Musk. When I look at Walt, I see him exuding a humane, Humanist warmth that came very naturally to him and gave his output also a warmth and connection to people that is very hard to recreate. Elon is slightly more awkward and distant in his presence, and his enterprises feel very pragmatic, but it's incredible how his mere vision and belief crosses that potential barrier and is as contagious and inspiring.
Walt had a much wider awareness of what warmed people's hearts and what human beings perhaps felt comfortable in, and he wanted to give as much as he could on that. Yes, it might've been slightly corporate and theme-park focused, but he was still sincerely, honestly tapping into something deep. As much as I admire Elon Musk, I don't think he reaches that level where Walt Disney lived seemingly his whole life.
João Pedro Caetano I think the difference between Walt Disney and Elon Musk is that Walt was much more personal in his desire to help Humanity, while Elon is much more abstract in his view of saving and helping Humanity. while Walt Disney was very focused on making a human and happy place for families and people as individuals to live and work in, Elon Musk is more focused on getting Humanity in general to the stars or moving away from fossil fuels and towards solar power and electric vehicles. both very forward-thinking, but in different ways.
The artwork and concept art is great. Would love them as proper prints.
No. The second you put people into a community, the community is shaped by them, not the other way around. Constant construction adding new technology to people's residences probably would have been the first thing to go since nobody wants to live with that; not complying would mean a revolt.
The main problem I have for the original epcot was how Walt Disney never considered the environmental impact this city would have when in order to build it requires land development which takes away natural ecosystems, but at least cities if built in this way would lessen the amount of space taken up which would allow more land to be left alone.
While I can certainly admire Walt's ambition there were certainly other problems with his community of tomorrow that never got addressed. If people were only renting out the property for 6-12 months I wonder where there kids would have gotten education during there stay? I understand the idea of having public schools was scrapped for the above reasons but would the kids have had private tutors? would they be home schooled? I can understand that probably only the wealthy would be able to live there, and there'd be a waiting list as well, there may be an education cost worked into there stay as well which might also be quite alot if private tutors were expected to reside there as well.
Also if disney employees were expected to reside there, where would there kids go to school?
Not to mention if the construction of this community of tomorrow was expected to take 10-15 years that means if construction began in 1967 EPCOT would probably have opened in either 1977 or 1982 and we know how much technology would have changed by then, so would it's infostructure of being the forefront of futuristic technology still have worked?
With Walt's death I can understand by a business (and a reality) standpoint why they didn't want to take the risk of going through with such an ambiguous protect. Especially since Walt who was the real brains and planning behind it all was no longer there to guide them.
In my opinion, private Disney schools would've been the best solution, but I'm sure if Walt was still alive he would have worked some of his magic to solve the issue himself.
I agree with Toxic Bubbles. Company-owned schools would have been the logical answer, and today we certainly have many private schools (non-religious) that are flourishing as our public school systems fall apart.
I think his EPCOT idea was great. The EPCOT we have is not the same - but is great. I love the idea behind Celebration and would love to live there. I would move back to the US if I could work at Disney World and live at Celebration. 😀
@Pretty Paul Roma I am glad to see how good the response has been here in the Philippines, and shocked at how poorly the US handled it. But, Kissimmee is not doing so bad...
Based on all of Walt Disney's past confrontations and doubters, I have no doubt had he lived EPCOT would have been built and would have become a living model for all cities worldwide. Why? Simply because Walt would have made it work by getting the people he put to work to think outside of the box again. From Sleeping Beauty to Disneyland they were all considered foolish and impossible, but it took a dreamer, a visionary to make it real. Epcot is still open as a torch to be passed to the next dreamer. Where is he or she? Epcot could be the model for the first planned city on Mars. Sound impossible--not to Walt Disney!
Great talk with relevant speakers. I often think of the same thing.
Just a reminder to everyone that Walt Disney had tried something like this before, when he made his Burbank Studio. He planned everything to make it convenient for his animators and they hated it.
Based on interviews with people close to the EPCOT project at the time, most people inside the company viewed the fact that there would be no governance of the area by its residents and would functionally be an Authoritarian Company Town led by Walt to be a non-starter.
Walt didn't want a community, he wanted a Human Zoo
I would love to somehow see the industrial portion built into the city plans. I know we usually think of industrial as ugly, dirty and pollutant but I think in a well planned city like this the industrial zones could be kept as beautiful and clean as the rest and it would keep people closer to their homes/jobs everyday and allow the advancements to be implemented even quicker. I am a big Lean manufacturing enthusiast and everything about this city screams lean and eliminates the 8 deadly wastes.
seems like walt would have liked to play minecraft
Great discussion, knowledgeable people, fun to listen to. One unfortunate reality not actually addressed. Even if you controlled the population inside of the place by selecting the well-mannered, the world outside is terrible. Have you seen the news lately? if you do a good job and stand for any form of values, someone will roust up a collection of protestors to surround your accomplishment and interfere with life in any way they can. The success of the well-behaved is a threat to the ill-behaved and they will riot to smear the efforts of the successful at any chance. ( Aug 6, 1970 - the Yippie invasion at Disneyland ) I'd love to see Walt's EPCOT built and succeed but there's so many whose terrible values are threatened by the success of people like Walt. What an uphill battle.
I thought I was the only one who remembered the Yippie Invasion! Sure "dates" me. Yeah, there will always be bad outside influences coming into any place, residential or workplace. But just like today where people who can afford to live in nice gated communities, policed by private cops, and companies guard and regulate their workplaces, EPCOT would have been the same thing -- only on a much grander scale. I remember back in the late 60s/early 70s some complained about Disneyland being a virtual "police state" that positively did NOT welcome anyone who wasn't "clean cut" (and that only got worse after the Yippie Day activities). So I'm confident EPCOT would have been policed in the same way as Disneyland, and "malcontents" and "undesirables" would NOT be welcomed or tolerated. Private property, so basically that's their right to do so.
Yes
I love this video! Thank you!
Well when you think. I think what what are use Americans and foreigners together and I think they would've worked well together in that city I think he had great ideas and I think of times are hard she wouldn't have brought in more people live in the city he would've faced some out instead just as the normal routine as I hear you guys talk about the city I think it was a totally worked because it was Walt Disney I think his company would've done well during the 90s because he knew it worked and he knew what didn't but I wish it had to happen and I do dream about it but it is what it is thank you guys for this awesome video
As a cousin to Walt and Roy O Disney it would have worked. We are 40 years behind technology, instead of 40 years in the future. We would have had Lunar and Martian Colonies 10 years ago. We would be colonizing Pluto by end of 2020. Vehicle Assembly Building was supposed to be 3 times bigger than NASA Vehicle Assembly Building. The spaceships 3 times bigger than Apollo rockets. Bridges would have been built better because the spaceships built at EPCOT would need to be transported to Cape Canaveral. There were supposed to be Mom and Pop Stores. Corporations would have been the sponsors and helped support Mom and Pop Stores. Walt E Disney was never against Mom and Pop Stores and was not just corporations. Walt was planning to retire in EPCOT.
Emergency Rapid Response Team can you provide any sources for these claims?
It seems to me that Dubai in the United Arab Emirates has taken Walt Disney's vision and has implemented that concept there.
There’s a monorail in Miami and a people mover by Bayside
Disney in away made an EPCOT in Florida they took ideas of it but didn't really build the city instead they have stuff like celebration and their College program internship
So The movie Wall -E would seem to best describe what EPCOT might have ended up being. As far as people movers. Maybe?
Monday on my channel I'm going to put out a video on EPCOT. Trying to bring it back
Thanks for the commentary on the project.
Some of this sounds like Haussmann getting rid of slums in 2nd Empire Paris.
amiedetherese if Walt's vision for EPCOT had been wildly successful as a community , some people would say it could have made a strong case for totalitarian fascism: no voting, full employment, corporation celebration bordering on worship, strict rules/laws, restricted individual property ownership, privileged elites, making a virtue of controlled environments, banishment for non-compliance, demographic purity, constant monitoring and control of population size, restriction of movement... and people were expected to come and admire this? A tecnotronic horror show.
Bill Holt well it was just for employees. People would have seen how city planning is important. Not necessarily make a perfectly circular city with a defined boundary and very few rights.
Bill - I think you're kinda "overdrawing" this! Once "company town" that does have much precident in mining towns of old, and on every US military base right up to now. If you've ever lived on a base, and had base housing, then go to work at your military job, then you know what it's like. Nothing new here, and no big deal if your employer/landlord happens to be Walt Disney Enterprises, instead of Uncle Sam! Personally, I'd trust a private corporation over our dictatorial, Socialistic Federal government any day of the week!
Excellent fascinating discussion! Thank you for making this video guys!
The plan for people living at Epcot were to be working employees - there was to be no unemployement on property.
You forget about human frailties, weakness, vulnerabilities, etc. and the shift in business fortunes. People would be 'fired' or 'laid off', what would happen to them. If you loose your job you get 'kicked out' of the complex? You get sick and can't work? Nothing can ever be 'Utopia'. It can never exist.
Very much so... true "Utopia" can't exist among an imperfect species. But my guess would have been your lease of the property was contingent upon your continued employment within Epcot, and if you lost that employment, your lease was terminated, and you moved! That would be a very business-like affair, pretty "cut-and-dried", you can bet.
No unemployment sounds like a prison. In prison everyone has a job except those who are unable to work. EPCOT was a sham.
You do realize that in real life you can't be unemployed and pay bills right ?
Besides most manual labor jobs are becoming increasingly automated so in a few decades there will literally be no work for people. We need a starting point for a sosciety in which work is no longer required and this setup seems pretty neat. Efficient and well designed places for people to live with garanteed life standards
Planning and real life situations are always in conflict. They were looking to do an older concept called a "Company Town" a subtle form of social engineering, this is not a new concept and goes back many years. An example is in Summit Hill, Pennsylvania. This concept started to die out in the 1920's. At it's peak, there were more than 2,500 company towns, housing 3% of the US population.
very interesting documentary. I think it would have worked if people could gain real world skills, interact with other cultures, combine resources with other like minded people, learn trade skills, utilize resources properly and live in community in peace. but i would make some modifications. people should have the option to stay or leave if so decided but move people put to make room for others to come in and learn.
i wrote apiece about this on my linked page.
I agree. The core concept is revolutionary, but some modifications would've been necessary.
Well if anyone has ever listen to other videos where they explain once Walt had died the stocks went up. The market knew Walt would not be there to slow down what was a money maker. They now could progress towards the green and forget about if it were right. The Disney of today is corporate money machine. It diesnt care who it ties it self to as long as it can make money.
Oh how much I loved this discussion! You guys are so wonderful! I agreed with everything you all had to say about Walt Disney and Epcot! What disappoints me with Epcot is they have changed classics like illuminations reflections of earth now that was truly magical! Also Soarin around the world can't hold a candle to Soarin California! What a shame! They have taken away a little bit of magic!
Great topic! Great video! Thanks for uploading! ☺
Link to see and hear Walt singing "Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow" with the Sherman Brothers: th-cam.com/video/bQl98IHNE74/w-d-xo.html
I really enjoy the topic of EPCOT. I still think that this is a viable idea.
These guys are high on disney fumes if they thing any human could build a 'utopian city' Utopia does not exist and, in fact, the concept was conceived as an argument against such concepts.
The structure of the Disney College Program is derived from the structure of residency at EPCOT. The success of the College Program proves that that type of residency structure works in a real-world setting. Just based on that factor, EPCOT would work in today's society.
Anyone who knows me knows that I am permanently outraged that the Disney company changed the vision and direction of EPCOT from what Walt had in mind. EPCOT Center when it opened was a great showplace for technology, but we all know that was only part of the story of what Walt wanted, not the whole thing. The company shied away from the "living" part of the community and I believe that people could have successfully lived there; the company was just too scared to implement it. The story I always heard was that they didn't want to "mess with people's lives", so instead made EPCOT another theme park. They really shortchanged Walt's vision and grand idea -- and in so doing, robbed us of the immense benefit of what could have been.
Beautiful documentary guys! Love the discussion. Just a quick question, what do you call this work that he was about to undergo? I know he had an incredible imagination, but is the word Municipal Developing? And how does that work? He has land, makes a blueprint of what he wants and then gets investors?
so many of these cities could have been built
Wow! Wow! Wow! What a great discussion on EPCOT, Progress City!
I do have a question for you, & or the You Tube audience.
I am a huge fan of Walt Disney, but if PC was built, & Monorail's & People Movers
where used only to get people around the city, & say if one or both happened to breakdown, how would people get around the city?
Do you think they would have a back up plan?
Any thoughts from you or the You Tube audience would be great!
Thanks! & Happy New Year!, David a Walt Disney admirer for over fifty years!, from Calif.
I'm not sure, so don't trust me on this, but it seems like (almost) wherever the monorail goes, the highway (for cars and trucks) will go as well. So from the airport, the visitors center, the industial 'district', the main community all the way to the themepark. So you could take the highway in case the monorail shuts down, and the other way around.
Disneyfan1955 As far as the PeopleMover is concerned, it was designed so that the motors are in the trackway and not the cars themselves. As long as the motors have power then it could essentially run forever if you follow me. You could always design a trackway that would divert an individual car for servicing or shut down a few motors for the same without interfering with the overall running of the system. The monorails I think could be similarly designed, but on a much heavier duty scale.
Worse case scenario, people could have walked. The whole city would have been about 3 miles wide from one end to the other, or from the farthest house to the center 1.5 miles, so about half an hour of walking.
😞🙁😢 what a shame there aren't more people like Walt Disney in this world wow would it be a better place. What a travesty when all they want to do with their money is by a company like Twitter Etc🤨🤔
Disney had he lived would have built it and made it work but yes he couldnt live forever so just like the current epcot those that took over disney would eventually ruin it and destroy it. And would probably would not have got the great Horizons attraction which they bulldozed too.....
Walt Disney would have been a great president.
He was happy with being king of Disneyland
Walt Disney & Jacque Fresco should of teamed up.
Wrong. Fresco's and the The Venus Project's ultimate objective is the eradication of money so that not even one human being goes economic struggles ever again.On the other hand, Disney wanted all the money for himself instead
seizures palace?
Could a developer today pull this off (With Disney's approval)?
I’d gladly do it with the original imagineers that did its concept phase and make some tweaks. People could vote however the technology would change every 1 year or so. Think like car designs used to be. If someone could link me up to people I’d like to be the Walt Disney and have these elder imagineers help me out. I can draw and create certain concepts however I’d need some more visionaries by my side to help make Walt’s vision a reality.
Epcot has the exact overtones of a Logan's Run styled world,minus last day.
Tell that to billionaire Perry Ceaiilus, he’s building the city of COT in South America.
Epcot could still work. Its better we build it from the ground up with today's tech rather than that of 50 years ago
Anybody who says a real version can't be built somewhere else is a quitter.
Yes , it worked._. A satellite array disguised as a park._.Epcot was genius , Experimental particle collider of tommorrow._.
Interesting.....have you guys been to Dubai? It's the ultimate modern.
Dubai is a creepy, hollow, Islamic monarchy built by slaves.
@@freedomfyodor
"Who will cultivate the land?"
"The slaves, of course."
I say rename EPCOT and turn it into IP attractions like it is headed towards. Rebuild a new EPCOT according to the original plans.
Of course it would have worked . always the right thing doesn't happen. They should have bulit it . Always a hater in the group.
Baaloney.
how about drugs? would there be a drug dealer? people be gettin crack by the teacups.
In short. Walt died and took with him his dreams and loves. Disneyco. took over, even before his body was cold, and went from making people happy, to stealing money from people. May Satan save Disneyco.'s soul. Because neither Heaven nor God will have them.