Great, Jon. I have loved Bert's songs since I was a teenager, and just looked at this in BT2 and more or less gave up immediately, even though I can play things like C of Kildare and P Saro in public. The thing with a lot of Bert's stuff, which is different from many singer/guitarists, is that his singing is completely free from the guitar part. They are linked, but it's in no way forced, and once you get it you can variate the singing like he does without worrying about the guitar part. I couldn't get this one at all and you really helped me hear how the vocal and guitar are linked. Thank you so much - I'm going to have another crack at it!
Thanks. But I think I'll disagree with you about his singing being free from the guitar part! The connection was particularly strong in this one, but it reminded me how he usually played the vocal melody in his guitar patterns. And then it occurred to me - which ought to have been a no-brainer! - that (in his covers especially) he would have begun from the vocal melody, especially in an unaccomanied vocal like this, and like Blackwaterside, Reynardine, and all those. He must have worked out the melody on the guitar (probably while singing it), and then gradually add bass lines, chord tones or harmony lines and so on, to make an accompaniment - and usually with a rhythmic groove too of course. With his own compositions, I suppose it's more debatable, but I suspect most of his songs would have begun from lyrics and melody intertwined with the guitar from the start. It's well documented how he would work out guitar parts over and over by ear; but his songs were always very personal, so I suspect ideas for lyrics would have been in his head already, and he must have sung or hummed to the guitar as he composed. With no immediate vocal connection, then the guitar inventions would have ended up as instrumentals! Anyway, as I said at the start here, like you I thought of this one as insanely complicated at first - even after I' played it enough to check the tab for the book. But - as I always find! - spending enough time on it does get it under your fingers. My advice is don't hammer away it for too long in any one session. Multiple short sessions, over many days, works - because the brain needs time out to process what you've been feeding into it. I found I always played better at the beginning of the next day's session than I did at the end ot the last day's. When it gets too hard - stop! It will be easier (just a little) tomorrow... 😉
Thanks again, John, and for the long reply. I actually agree with you, and I think I expressed it badly. The link between singing and guitar part is there all right and often very strong, but as you say it is interwined, and it is sometimes hard to get. I think one of the examples I gave was Pretty Saro, which is a case in point. The tune is right there in the guitar part, but it kind of jumps around. Once you get it, the song is easier to learn and you can them sing the vocals in a more free way, as Bert does, rather than tumti, tumti, tumpti, etc along with the guitar line. I feel the singing just floats above the guitar part, whereas, with some singers, a lyric is bang on where the accompanying melody note is on guitar. So, for example, there's a bit in Currugh OC where it goes to a C chord and the tune is right there on the C, but it would sound really stiff to sing it there -that's just for learning. Anyway thanks again for what you are donig with these tutorials, etc. A real gift for lovers of Bert's music. Cheers.@@Jonpriley
Great stuff Jon. I find the finger positions and picking tricky but not impossible, it's the timing I am struggling with. I bought Bert Transcribed 2, just for this piece.
Thank you Jon! Great song choice for a lesson I think. I'm not much of a singer either, but, as you said with this one, I feel that Bert's arrangements are often so well married to the lyrics that singing actually helps to make sense of the music and learn the song.
I suspect, by that time, he did too! I certainly wouldn't be surprised if he'd forgotten how he played it 17 years earlier, and decided to completely re-work it. I don't really have a preference myself (I might agree with you), but this one is in the book because it's better known and - as far as I can tell - more popular. And I had seen a few requests for lessons on this version. It was never one of my favourite Bert tracks, but now, having learned it properly myself, there are parts I really like (and just that one bar which seems a bit odd). But no doubt I'd like the 1990 version as much, if I worked on that a bit more.... (I do have a transcription, but haven't practised it.)
Hi, thanks for your videos. I didn’y knew there was a vol 2 of Bert Transcribed, I just ordered it few hours ago. Would you have a partial tab for « train tune » by pentangle by the way ? Thanks
@@Jonpriley hi Jon, I tried to contact you via gavebook a week ago but maybe you didn’t read your message. By the way I reveived the BertTranscribed vol.2 :)
@@TheBenabri Sorry, I did check facebook messenger, but didn't see any from you. Can you try again? (The above address is right.) Or do you have another way I can contact you? (privately, obviously).
Hi Jon, Sounds amazing although somewhat tricky and definitely a challenge for my intermediate standard although I will persevere.. Just a query but I notice that Pierre plays it in EADGAD and it sounds authentic. Are you certain that it’s in standard, as you play it here, before I start having a go?
As sure as I can be! Certainly. Bert never used EADGAD. As mentioned in the comments, the original reference tab came from Jamie Phillips, who is now one of the Bert Transcribed Group who acted as consultants on both books. This transcription has been overseen by all of them, and nobody mentioned any possibility of an alternative tuning. It certainly never occurred to me, as it all sits under the fingers well enough in EADGBE - and in the one or two moments where it doesn't, that just more evidence for EADGBE. I.e., where it's tricky in that tuning (such as bar 7), Bert doesn't play it cleanly either! Nothing against the indefatigable Pierre leBras! He's a great player, and I have immense respect for his work adapting Pentangle tunes using different tunings to be able to incorporate as much of both guitar parts and the bass as he can. And I'm sure Bert would have been just fine with anyone making their own versions of his arrangements! He might have been bemused to see us focusing so much on rhe tiniest details of his own arrangements! The purpose of the books is to get as close as humanly possible to how Bert played the pieces (because his idiosyncratic technique was so fascinating), but that doesn't mean we need to play them the same way. The idea is to use the transcriptions as reference, and then play the tunes in your own way - as "authentic" as you like, or as different as you like. By the way, check out a great version by Nir Mehlman: th-cam.com/video/b00UWUttqVY/w-d-xo.html. This was before our book came out, but matches our version, so I'm guessing he used Jamie's tab - or worked it out himself.
Great, Jon. I have loved Bert's songs since I was a teenager, and just looked at this in BT2 and more or less gave up immediately, even though I can play things like C of Kildare and P Saro in public. The thing with a lot of Bert's stuff, which is different from many singer/guitarists, is that his singing is completely free from the guitar part. They are linked, but it's in no way forced, and once you get it you can variate the singing like he does without worrying about the guitar part. I couldn't get this one at all and you really helped me hear how the vocal and guitar are linked. Thank you so much - I'm going to have another crack at it!
Thanks. But I think I'll disagree with you about his singing being free from the guitar part! The connection was particularly strong in this one, but it reminded me how he usually played the vocal melody in his guitar patterns. And then it occurred to me - which ought to have been a no-brainer! - that (in his covers especially) he would have begun from the vocal melody, especially in an unaccomanied vocal like this, and like Blackwaterside, Reynardine, and all those. He must have worked out the melody on the guitar (probably while singing it), and then gradually add bass lines, chord tones or harmony lines and so on, to make an accompaniment - and usually with a rhythmic groove too of course.
With his own compositions, I suppose it's more debatable, but I suspect most of his songs would have begun from lyrics and melody intertwined with the guitar from the start. It's well documented how he would work out guitar parts over and over by ear; but his songs were always very personal, so I suspect ideas for lyrics would have been in his head already, and he must have sung or hummed to the guitar as he composed. With no immediate vocal connection, then the guitar inventions would have ended up as instrumentals!
Anyway, as I said at the start here, like you I thought of this one as insanely complicated at first - even after I' played it enough to check the tab for the book. But - as I always find! - spending enough time on it does get it under your fingers. My advice is don't hammer away it for too long in any one session. Multiple short sessions, over many days, works - because the brain needs time out to process what you've been feeding into it. I found I always played better at the beginning of the next day's session than I did at the end ot the last day's. When it gets too hard - stop! It will be easier (just a little) tomorrow... 😉
Thanks again, John, and for the long reply. I actually agree with you, and I think I expressed it badly. The link between singing and guitar part is there all right and often very strong, but as you say it is interwined, and it is sometimes hard to get. I think one of the examples I gave was Pretty Saro, which is a case in point. The tune is right there in the guitar part, but it kind of jumps around. Once you get it, the song is easier to learn and you can them sing the vocals in a more free way, as Bert does, rather than tumti, tumti, tumpti, etc along with the guitar line. I feel the singing just floats above the guitar part, whereas, with some singers, a lyric is bang on where the accompanying melody note is on guitar. So, for example, there's a bit in Currugh OC where it goes to a C chord and the tune is right there on the C, but it would sound really stiff to sing it there -that's just for learning. Anyway thanks again for what you are donig with these tutorials, etc. A real gift for lovers of Bert's music. Cheers.@@Jonpriley
Hi Jon, this is great! Thanks so much for your help learning this amazing song by Bert. Keep up the great work please.
Thank you Jon
Great stuff Jon.
I find the finger positions and picking tricky but not impossible, it's the timing I am struggling with.
I bought Bert Transcribed 2, just for this piece.
Thanks Jon!
Thank you Jon! Great song choice for a lesson I think. I'm not much of a singer either, but, as you said with this one, I feel that Bert's arrangements are often so well married to the lyrics that singing actually helps to make sense of the music and learn the song.
Thanks you man
Merci.
Nice work Jon, great arrangement of Bert's, though I must admit I much prefer his arrangement on 'The Ornament Tree'.
I suspect, by that time, he did too! I certainly wouldn't be surprised if he'd forgotten how he played it 17 years earlier, and decided to completely re-work it. I don't really have a preference myself (I might agree with you), but this one is in the book because it's better known and - as far as I can tell - more popular. And I had seen a few requests for lessons on this version. It was never one of my favourite Bert tracks, but now, having learned it properly myself, there are parts I really like (and just that one bar which seems a bit odd). But no doubt I'd like the 1990 version as much, if I worked on that a bit more.... (I do have a transcription, but haven't practised it.)
Hi, thanks for your videos. I didn’y knew there was a vol 2 of Bert Transcribed, I just ordered it few hours ago. Would you have a partial tab for « train tune » by pentangle by the way ?
Thanks
I do have a (very) partial tab, yes. I won't put my email here, but you can message me on FB: facebook.com/Jon.P.Riley
@@Jonpriley thks !
@@Jonpriley hi Jon, I tried to contact you via gavebook a week ago but maybe you didn’t read your message. By the way I reveived the BertTranscribed vol.2 :)
@@TheBenabri Sorry, I did check facebook messenger, but didn't see any from you. Can you try again? (The above address is right.) Or do you have another way I can contact you? (privately, obviously).
@@Jonpriley oh sorry, I’m not used to FB, I’m gonna try again :)
Hi Jon,
Sounds amazing although somewhat tricky and definitely a challenge for my intermediate standard although I will persevere.. Just a query but I notice that Pierre plays it in EADGAD and it sounds authentic. Are you certain that it’s in standard, as you play it here, before I start having a go?
As sure as I can be! Certainly. Bert never used EADGAD. As mentioned in the comments, the original reference tab came from Jamie Phillips, who is now one of the Bert Transcribed Group who acted as consultants on both books. This transcription has been overseen by all of them, and nobody mentioned any possibility of an alternative tuning. It certainly never occurred to me, as it all sits under the fingers well enough in EADGBE - and in the one or two moments where it doesn't, that just more evidence for EADGBE. I.e., where it's tricky in that tuning (such as bar 7), Bert doesn't play it cleanly either!
Nothing against the indefatigable Pierre leBras! He's a great player, and I have immense respect for his work adapting Pentangle tunes using different tunings to be able to incorporate as much of both guitar parts and the bass as he can. And I'm sure Bert would have been just fine with anyone making their own versions of his arrangements! He might have been bemused to see us focusing so much on rhe tiniest details of his own arrangements! The purpose of the books is to get as close as humanly possible to how Bert played the pieces (because his idiosyncratic technique was so fascinating), but that doesn't mean we need to play them the same way. The idea is to use the transcriptions as reference, and then play the tunes in your own way - as "authentic" as you like, or as different as you like.
By the way, check out a great version by Nir Mehlman: th-cam.com/video/b00UWUttqVY/w-d-xo.html. This was before our book came out, but matches our version, so I'm guessing he used Jamie's tab - or worked it out himself.