US subsidies under the IRA are far more, especially on a per-vehicle basis. BYD's Chinese NEV sales alone are roughly twice US total sales (PHEV's are considered EV's legally in the US due to GM lobbying to support the Volt).
@@reginald7214 Sino-Indian war, attacks on Philippine fishing vessels, the Nine-Dash Line, and the current beating of the war drums to take over Taiwan, to name a few.
I recall (but could be wrong ) that the US govt got equity for this and later sold the equity when the economic crisis eased. Ford were offered as well but didn't take the money. Most probably better to have let them go broke.
Let's not forget the $25 billion General Motors bailout. About half of which, they did not pay back. The fact is, subsidy or no subsidy, BYD makes great cars and is a very tough competitor.
@@JorenMathews Exacty!!!!! If you dig into many of the "Pro BYD" responses and "The US does the same and worse" accounts you will see they are coming from Chinese Trolls as is the case with "ChickensAndGardening".
@@markthomas7279 The Pension Red Robbo and His “Chums” got from a scheme that was paid into from an Off Shore dump fund came in a roundabout way from the MfS. They lived like lords on the breakup of the U.K. Motor Industry.
Kind of the same but not. Business runs America. Government runs China. Big bankroll difference. GM can get 50 billion from government to fight competition. China throws 500 billion into killing the competition. GM wants to rule the car world. China wants the world world. "United states the same" no. US wants the "Team" to rule. China is for China.
It sounds like you are not familiar with the American Tax incentives. Maybe you don't live in the US? or you are just un-informed? or both? US Tax incentives are to encourage individual consumers to purchase EVs. Any automaker can qualify for the incentives if they meet the qualifications (Mfg (final assembly) in North America and x% of battery components are sourced or processed US or from countries where US has Free Trade Agreement (12 countries ). That is very different than providing government subsidies directly to companies so that they can use PREDATORY pricing (sell below cost) to drive other manufacturers out of business so that they can eventually own the market. China has a long history of doing exactly this and blatantly stealing IP to gain advantages...e.g., not playing fair.
The electric Viking should not spread fake rumors without the proper caveats. In the US companies got huge subsidies to maintain employment during covid. And Tesla got billions in subsidies in China because their rules did NOT exclude foreign companies from getting those subsidies. (much of Tesla's subsidies were from carbon credits for making EVs) The details are important and if you leave them out, to mislead people, it's propaganda.
US car companies got huge subsidies to.... well... not to go banckrupt in 2008. if it was up to free market right wing capitalism, USA would not have car companies... including Elon Motors. 🙃
Tesla gotten more subsidies in China during 2020 at around $325m. Slightly more than BYD at $310m. It was a move by the Chinese govt to purposely help spur their own homegrown industry by pulling in Tesla. Many favorable deals were given to Musk and Tesla, including the very first wholly owned factory without a Chinese company invovled. China is known to do this. Sucker in foreginers then get their know hows and kick them out or start restricting them in favor of their own home grown. The subsidies for EV started during 2009 and some of their subsidies for most of their domestic brands includes, national, local, and consumer levels where the subsidies exceeds the price of the car they sell.
China (CCP) is subsidizing EV companies like BYD so that they can use predatory pricing to gain market share and drive other EV companies out of the market. They have a long history of doing this (e.g., Steel, Solar and now EVs). This is an illegal practice.
"2.3 Billions from Chinese government"?! If US "The CHIPS and Science Act" can "provides $52.7 billion for American semiconductor research, development, manufacturing, and workforce development. " , then what is wrong for "BYD gets 2.3 Billions from Chinese government”? if it is really happened.
The money is spent in the US internally - the other is for efforts which are designed to bypass trade agreements… good grief is that not obvious? Why do you guys try to always take Chinas side in everything when they have a clear record of IP theft, human rights issues and quasi-fascist government practices?
All of the legacy motor manufacturers receive huge sums of taxpayers monies in the form of tax rebates, grants and incentives so nothing new there but it palls into insignificance to the trillions of dollars of public monies given to the oil and gas companies
It's one thing to give a tax break to the end customer who buys the car, it's quite another to give money to a company so that it can sell for less in a market that isn't its own.
You should look into the carbon credit, compliance credit, and other schemes/scams being exploited by carmakers which ultimately drive up all our costs, so that wealthier folks can enjoy cheaper EVs. Elon's said a few things about this. All at the behest of contextual fraud.
also those oil and gas companies sell the oil and gas cheaper to the same country (the USA) not in China so, it's not the same thing. If the chinese govt wants to subsidise byd to sell cheap cars to the chinese people then they should give them vouchers. But it's not that, they are giving subsidies directly to byd to sell cars in the west under the manufacturing price to destroy the local manufacturers. Also the european govt's are dumb enough to give tax cuts for the purchase of chinese cars.
Meanwhile, the federal and state governments pull about tens times the tax revenue from fuel sales than do the oil companies profit. Yep, 'bout a 1000% of what the oil companies get out of it. You should spend some time in DC knocking some heads together and tell our ambitious handlers to stop all that silly crap, and demand EV manufacturers thrive by their own merit, not by forcing poor people to help make EV cars cheaper for wealthier people. See what that gets you.
You speak out of ignorance, at least in the US. US petroleum companies don't get any subsidies, just the same tax rules that ALL other companies (e.g., 3M, GE, Walmart, Microsoft, Amazon, etc.) get regarding depreciating assets, expenses, etc. If you are aware of some "secret" subsidy, please let the rest of the world in on it. I am not including government subsidies in some poor countries that apply to a wide range of food and energy at the retail level.
While the $2.3B in subsidies seem to be a lot, I don't think that they are a huge game changer and don't explain BYD's rapid growth. Every major german car company pays out more than twice that amount each year in dividends and the Gigafactory in Berlin cost about $5.5B.
@@mitchnn Not even close. BYD had by the end of 2022 about 570K employees, and BYD is known to pay good wages in China. Also, if a subsidy that amounts to less than $1000 per car allowed carmakers to reduce their prices by thousands of dollars, we shouldn't stop those subsidies; we should instead extend them to all other carmakers (though under the condition that they do, indeed, reduce prices). The problem, though, is that much larger subsidies by the US and Europe don't seem to actually help reduce EV prices. I don't know, it's as if shareholders and leadership were just pocketing the money by padding dividends and bonuses.
@@timothykeith1367 In China it's huge. The labor costs are significantly lower than the west. Why do you think Apple, Tesla, and many other companies have factories there? Right now, most are shifting manufacturing to Vietnam, India, Mexico, etc. It's getting expensive and not worth the risk doing business in a nation that turned hostile since Emperor Xi's ascension.
You don't know how they expand so quickly? You yourself reported they've been buying abandoned factories around the world. That should give you an idea of their mentality.
They can do that if they choose but they cannot use predatory pricing to dump products into other markets to harm the manufacturers in those markets. This is what China is doing.
@@Jetter638 COPE harder... in the global south, if we can buy a much cheaper chinese car... we will buy it... no more over pay for westoid products... China become no 1 car exporter in the world by hardly selling to US, Japan, Korea, low sales in EU... basically just Global South and Russia.
The US doesn't export cheap chips. That is for domestic consumption as US made chips will be more expensive. China uses subsidies to export cheap cars and undermine other economies.
@@100c0c I'll let you in on a little secret, there are no more subsidies for EVs in China, and the price of EVs exported from China generally goes up by 100 per cent
Sam was talking about 'direct subsidies' i.e. preferential subsidies to Chinese companies. See his vid "masses of Chinese EVs clogging up European ports" a few days ago
race to what? to a self imposed shoot in the foot? Who mandates the adoption of the ev's china or the western countries? So western countries mandate the adoption of the ev's while china has no intention in doing so and there is suddenly a race.
ALL governments subsidise their auto industry. China chose EVs whereas the West chose ICE. It's the technology that's out competing the West, not the subsidies. No one can out compete the US on subsidies.
You can say the same thing about almost every US and European company. There is no way China is giving money to prop up EV companies since China has thousand of them. Actually where does China find all these money to build the largest HSR, all the renewable energy technologies, longest high power transmission, greening the desert...etc. This is not even mentioning China only spending less than 2% of their GDP on defense. US is spending 3.1% of the GDP on defense.
US has hobbled the WTO by not allowing judges. So one country has hobbled the body that would be the arbiter of these trades disputes. This might be an indication of which party is breaking the rules.
Very much so. The US was sick of losing WTO cases relating to protectionist measures. And with the WTO accepting the concept of cross-sanctions - meaning the slighted country don't have to apply whichever sanctions it wins to the sector where the protectionism happened, where the sanctions would likely be useless anyway, but can instead select some other sector for the sanctions in order to maximize economic and political pain to the country guilty of protectionism - losing an WTO case was starting to sting.
US was dumb to push for China a non free market country to be able to join the WTO. Clinton got paid and that's all he cares for. Now the rest of the world have to suffer...
Too late, the EU has already put restriction on importers that receive state aid in a manner that is illegal in the EU; why would the EU allow products into the EU that are subsidised in a way that would be illegal if manufactured in the EU?
Ummm, US government provided 39 billion in subsidies for chipmakers to set up shop on American soil. How is this ok and a tiny 3.9 billion subsidy is not?
@@Wongseifu548 US chip restrictions were also specifically intended to cripple the high tech industry in China. Does this not also serve as economic attack to destroy competition?
@@albback8176 Wow its almost like your policies and subsidies were built to hurt not just American workers but workers all over the globe, so now you get a taste of what youre doing to everyone else. LMAO
In the early 2010's the world was told that the climate change problem is really serious and everyone should commit to reduce carbon footprint and develop new source of energy. Everyone agreed "yeah yeah" and China went to boost their alternative energy industry (Wind energy, solar panels, electric cars, obviously through a lot of government subsidy), Now finally China can produce more and better EVs (and finally large chunk of Chinese consumers are considering their next car should be an EV) they are told "no no it is no good that you can produce more and better EVs, this is not fair"
What are Substantial subsidies ? Intel : Yes U.S. to reportedly announce billions of dollars in subsidies for advanced chips. Georgia, Kansas, Michigan, New York, North Carolina, Ohio and Texas have made billion-dollar pledges for a microchip or EV plant, with more state-subsidized plant announcements by profitable automakers and semiconductor giants surely to come. Sources: AP Reuters
And, of course, it was US Taxpayer subsidies to Tech that developed semiconsuctors, microprocessors and the Internet. Those profits yielded no dividends for taxpayers, and we're supposed to worship the "entrepreneurs" responsible...
Exactly. China went from no car industry, to large proportion being new EV/ BEV. Plus (some) being competitive on global market. Astonishing transformation, didn’t cost that much.
Chinas system is State Capitalism, and their express aim is to dominate every area of trade, manufacturing or whatever, a classic quick example is their steel being underpriced and dumping it on markets worldwide, naturally causing government internationally to put up trade barriers or tariffs to protect their local steel manufacturing, just to show you how ruthless China is, Australia only now produces a tiny amount of steel, let's say about 5 million tons, China produces close to 1 billion tons and dumps their steel onto Australia because their own market is dead because of their property crisis trying to get rid of excess steel and then complain to our government about putting up tariffs, so manufacturing one billion tons of steel and trying to wipe out another countries steel industry that only produces 5 million tons and is necessary naturally for multiple obvious reasons, their greed is incomprehensible.
@@DaedaluLot of younger folks have poor awareness or critical thinking skills but were deceived in their education to think they were learning more - all they got was dogma.
China takes Australian iron ore, metallurgical coal, often at premium prices, pays shipping both ways. Australia can’t compete because of lack of scale more than labour costs. And old infrastructure. Anyway, Aussies can make more in finance, law, as barista, in entertainment. Service economy. Why get dirty?
How about this? From Time magazine and this is GM alone and not including Chrysler in 2009. And GM China is the only group that contribute consistent profit until recently. U.S. taxpayers lost more than $11.2 billion as a result of the federal bailout of General Motors, according to a government report released Wednesday. The $11.2-billion loss includes a $826-million write-off in March from government investments in the “Old GM” before the company’s 2009 bankruptcy, the report said. The U.S. government spent $49.5 billion to bail out GM, and after the company’s bankruptcy in 2009, the government’s investment was converted to a 61 percent equity stake in the company. The Treasury gradually sold off its stock in GM, selling its last shares in December 2013.
@@reginald7214 yes, it's likely that all 3 will be in bankruptcy Court in the future just labour cost alone vs Robotic production process ( forced Robotic Labour as the US will use in the future) that can produce better quality and cheaper cars. The western countries represent 12 percent of the population and 88 percent of the population will have increasing spending power going forward. US and the Western countries can choose to pay for higher prices by protecting their industries and bailing them out again and the end result will be no industries left if open competition is not forced on them .
Tesla received a lot of support to set up that Shanghai factory as well,which turned out their best. 3.7b is about the amount of deficit depending to keep US federal gov operating for 10 hours, just to put it in perspective. Sounds like it is 3.7b well spend if u ask me.
2.3 billion dollars is peanuts, you're forgetting is that Auto is worth 2.86 trillion dollars and Telsa is worth 535 billion on its own organically. While the inflation reduction act set aside 47 billion dollars in subsidies. Legacy auto and Telsa has also proven itself in the capitalistic markets, organization fail internally trying to prop it up from the outside is call throwing good money after bad, its a money pit.
According to the Federal Environment Agency, German taxpayers subsidize the automotive system to the tune of around 17 billion euros per year - and that's just for diesel subsidies, distance allowances, the company car privilege and the promotion of biofuels...not the entire money. At the same time, the transport sector is responsible for almost 30% of the EU's total CO2 emissions, of which 72% is attributable to road transport....and the negative results of that the taxpayers also pay to fix.
Tesla is getting subsidy billions every year in the US. For every 1 Million cars sold in the US Tesla gets $7.5B in subsidy not counting the additional billions for batteries. Ford/GM have been given Billions for things they haven't built.
@@Notasalamanda And PWC or PricewaterhouseCoopers don't hide its accounting practices and gets away with it, and thats why china biggest real estate company Evergrande have so much debt and US expect china to bail them out.
@@marcs5117 We have auditing firms that are transparent and report to the public. Chinese companies were told a couple years ago to stop working with said transparent auditing firms.
Just like any other China bashing videos, they always starts with “study shows”. Who did the study? What is the method? How reliable is the data? Who is funding the research? How does it compare to the others? In today’s world, no media is fair or balanced, including this one.
Tesla has received over $9 billion from carbon credits. Where’s the outrage about that? The US also has a 27.5% tariff on Chinese imports. All countries support their own interests at least China is supporting clean energy and clean vehicles while US, Japan and Europe cling to fossil fuel and legacy vehicles.
I would be more outraged at Tesla never paying US corporate income tax due to tax subsidies. As well as them including $5 Billion in tax subsidies that they took as one time adjustment in their 2023 net income, amounting to 1/3 of their net profits. Beyond spending less on R&D, the reason Tesla falls behind BYD in automotive gross margin (cost of making the car vs. what you sell it for) but came out far ahead in net margin comes down to subsidies.
Tesla was on the verge of bankruptcy until California threw it a life line via carbon credits and tax rebates. Tesla is probably one of the biggest corporate welfare queens, to this day.
It will be interesting to compare these subsidies on a per capita basis. If chinese subsidies is lower per capita than Europe’s then Europe has a much weaker case.
@@edmccoy7248 Tesla is wholly owned by Tesla. No joint venture. Tesla does not make batteries, they buy them from CATL or BYD. There's no major battery producer in US or EU. What technology IP was shared?
@@edmccoy7248 More like public universities. The Chinese can get higher education at a small fraction of what it would cost in the US, and the universities being public it means the government has control over which courses are offered and can prioritize fields where it wants Chinese technology to advance. Last I looked into it, for every engineer or scientist graduating in the US, China had 7 of them graduating. There's a reason why many of the research teams in US companies and research institutes have a disproportionally high number of Chinese scientists. Which, incidentally, means that discrimination against them often causes those experienced researchers to pack up and go back to China, strengthening Chinese research with their experience while depriving the US of it. China has passed the US in all the indicators for both basic research and applied research. There are more high-quality research papers from China in most cutting edge fields than there are from the US, or any other country (with paper quality determined by how often that research is mentioned by other researchers). It also files more patents than the US, and by a good margin. (For batteries, though, there's another interesting issue. The patent holders for the core LFP battery patents charged large enough royalties that companies in most of the world thought it useless to improve on the tech, so it didn't advance. China, meanwhile, negotiated a deal which allowed Chinese companies to use those patents royalty-free as long as it didn't export LFP batteries before the patents expired, so Chinese companies were hard at work improving the tech, effectively giving China many years of head-start on LFP battery research despite the tech being originally from the US and Canada.)
Allowing Tesla to build and fully operate the factory in Shanghai was a strategic decision; it allowed a massive up skilling that would not have happened otherwise, tens of thousands of staff trained up in not only building EVs but also how to build and manage a massive scale EV factory. Xi's CCP are getting closer to a Leninist "Juche" as the days go by, so there is always the option to "nationalise" (shotgun buy out) of Tesla should the need arise.
Of note, the current crop of developed countries, without exception, made heavy use of subsidies while growing their industries on the path to becoming developed. They only became anti-subsidies when they reached the top and figured that if no one in the world was allowed to use heavy subsidies, no developing country could ever dethrone them. I'm of the opinion that subsidies are a legal, and even moral, tool for developing industries, which every developing country should make heavy use of subject to some limits - limits that I don't think China is crossing.
This is going to be interesting in the long run. We know they make them cheaper, but in the long run, do they hold up? When Toyota and Honda arrived on the scene in the 70s, it took like 10 years and everything changed with the price of their 4-cylinder cars being less, and their reputation for running forever. If China is going to be 1/2 the price of Tesla or whatever, will they be a YUGO or a Honda/Toyota? YUGO didn't make it. The cheap price wasn't worth it
Are all Chinese NEV companies treated the same? Otherwise, the other Chinese companies would be complaining. BYD would obviously get the most as its the largest. But it does make it easier to understand US tariffs
Anyone who thinks Chinese subsidies are greater than those in the US needs to learn how to do math. It is simply untrue. It's a fraction as much per EV sold.
Governments are best when they provide appropriate forward looking infrastructure and opportunities equally across vital parts the economy and education and research. When another country’s subsidies endanger this plan for a stable secure and wealth sharing future then tariffs and other actions are critical and appropriate.
@@Jeff-zc6rr China (CCP) is subsidizing BYD for the expressed purpose so that they can use Predatory pricing to drive other manufacturers out of the market so they can own the EV market. Look at how BYD is dumping cars in the Europe.
I've been saying for a long time that it's not necessarily less expensive to build cars in China versus industrialized countries. If cars in China were built to the same safety standards and the companies had to abide by the same environmental regulations the costs really are not that different. This is why when you look at cars being built by Tesla in China the reality is that the costs are not that different. The reality is that the scale matters more than anything else. This is why general motors, XPang Ford and Neo all don't make any money selling electric cars they don't have the scale necessary.
Agreed, mostly. Scale, not making a thousand variants, factory designed for efficiency, battery supply. Lack of obstructive bureaucratic / legal / union / regulatory burden has to help too. Western freedom & feather bedding comes at a cost. Oh … and Chinese workers do work twice as hard as in US or Europe, "hungrier". Our real problem is cost burden of stealerships.
@@iandavies4853 Wright's Law says that every time you double production of anything you lower the cost by right around 10-15%, so you look at the Model Y LR | in Jan. 2024 was selling in Europe for around $53.5K USD. or just under €50K. However, since production in the USA was around double of Germany, the price was around 12% less at around $48K. You then look at China where again they were producing double what the USA was making and of course in China it was selling for around 12% less than the USA at RMB 299K or around 42K. I used the LR version because it's the one that the most similar across the 3 continents but if you notice the USA has the highest wages of the 3, but the price is in the middle. It's like I said before the BIGGEST component is who is making more. The one making the most will have the best price.
@@TheCostofAutism 1. Wright’s Law isn’t a law, it’s a WAG at explanation of history projecting into future. And the 10-15% varies by industry. I’d guess Tesla achieves way greater Wright’s advantage than does Ford, Stellantis. 2. Going different continents, different economies, is umm … challenging. Shanghai itself is a microcosm, isn’t representative of China as a whole. Same for Austin vs Fremont. Land values, labour cost, regulations, shipping cost, access to Mexico, new construction (factory), new design, different batteries. But I agree your basic premise, cost of assembly labour isn’t determining factor now, will be even less for future models (gen 3). That’s only way for US to compete. (except China is pushing automation too) I do feel Chinese are working harder, so giving better value per unit labour. Germany & Fremont just offer so many obstacles.
@@iandavies4853 Measured over the decade to 2015, ARK, which is a Research Investment firm found that a price forecast based on Wright’s Law was 40% more accurate than one based on Moore’s Law. So while not exactly a Law per se, it does seem to provide a reliable framework for forecasting cost declines as a function of cumulative production. Especially when it comes to where for every cumulative doubling of units produced, costs will fall by a fairly constant percentage. Honestly you can't really argue with facts here, Tesla has 3 MAJOR production facilities for the Model Y and the one that's producing the least units in Germany, in 2023 was almost HALF of that of the USA and it's ~12% more, the one that's DOUBLE that of the USA is ~12% less. What better example of Wright's Law in practice than that? Of course sometimes you have companies like Apple that once they got to millions of units, their cost per unit dropped all the way from $600.00 per unit (adjusted for inflation) to as low as $200.00 per unit, but instead of passing those savings on to customers they decided to keep it and keep raising prices, making Apple THE most profitable electronics company in all of history.
@@TheCostofAutism another truism is that all costs are eventually labour or profit, just have to look up the supply chain to raw materials & machine that makes the machine. China still has an advantage. Tesla reduces costs by design - of factory, of car, of automation. Slow ramp of cybertruck demonstrates it’s not all plain sailing. Ark does good research, but it’s still as observer, not participant. As I am. It’s correlation, not causation. Doesn’t factor in quality. Only works when ignoring period when Li prices skyrocketed. The difficulty of ramping 4680 shows models only get you so far, eventually it’s blood, sweat & swear words. Hard yakka.
From US govt for cars sold in US only. Ditto for other countries. US govt hasn't subsidized Tesla for cars sold elsewhere like China is doing. Yes the govt had granted Tesla loans early on, but Tesla paid them back in full, with interest, with early payment penalty. Hardly "free money".
It is commom accusation of West governments when they can not compete! BYD has more advanced tech than other legacy cars, that is the advantage it can compete with lagacy cars!
If Germany said it does that make it true? Even if it were, does the preferential treatment German manufacturers get IN CHINA count? As Ola Kaellenius CEO of Mercedes said last month, 'Mercedes Benz is making China the world's top auto market, central to its next electric vehicle company starting in 2025'
Following an investigation around 2012, the European Commission discovered that China had provided $30 billion in financing to Huawei and around $15 billion to ZTE. So, not to downplay the message of this video, but compared to twelve years ago, a couple of billion being given to BYD to give it a financial advantage that it did not earn by selling a product with superior price/performance is already peanuts...
BYD is giving me the "Huawei vibes". If they become seen as a branch of the Chinese Communist Party, they could run into a ton of problems with Western government. But subsidies or not, the BYD Seal is still more expensive than a Tesla Model 3 in all the European countries I checked (Germany, Denmark and Sweden).
In China there is an EV subsidy. Whether it goes to the consumer or car maker depends on perspective. Same subsidy rates apply to vehicles from BYD, Tesla etc.... but most are on BYD sales because they sell the most cars. In Australia I also know many people who got a subsidy buying an EV.
The US provides a $7,500 EV tax credit. Tesla sold 654,888 cars last year. 654,888*7,500 = $5 billion. So Tesla got $5 billion from the US government in 2023 just from sales tax, let alone other subsidies. It seems BYD received much less than many other car manufacturers then...
@@reginald7214 BYD has full control over the battery tech, since it's not only vertically integrated but also the second largest battery maker in the world, so it could just source the raw materials from Australia or some other US ally and make the batteries itself on US soil. It is, after all, planning to make the batteries for its Brazilian-made cars in Brazil. And I believe the same applies to other of their factories around the world expected to start production this year or the next. So making a new battery plant is no issue, at all, for them.
@@Random-yq1wu BYD would do that if both political parties wouldn't do a hissy fit whenever a Chinese EV or battery company even thinks about setting shop in the US. Which is ironic because BYD already has a factory in the US making buses.
7:00 "for their industry" NO - every EV sold here gets subsidies this is completely different from what China does.. the funniest thing is how China is bailing out companies all the time even if they would otherwise be unable to compete under market rules NIO for example only exists because the party wants to keep the battery swap technologie ready just in case it will become a big thing
One of the roles of government is to develop industries that sustain income to their populations. This occurs in every country that can fund development. It has now moved from a development discussion to one of strategy and tactics. Dependence on other countries has the potential to be detrimental in times of uncertainty. By investing in your own industries you promote growth, income and certainty by creating an integrated system of value added industries.
India’s Supreme Court expanded the “right to life” to include “protection against adverse effects of climate change”, adding that “climate change threatens ‘constitutional guarantees of equality and health’, impacting factors such as air pollution, disease, and food security”, the Independent reported. An editorial in the Indian Express described the decision as a “call to action”, adding that the significance of the ruling “cannot be overstated”. The European Court of Human Rights this week ruled that insufficient action to tackle climate change is a violation of human rights, DeSmog reported. In a “historic” judgement, the court ruled that Switzerland’s inadequate action on cutting emissions breached the rights to respect for family and private life of some of its most vulnerable citizens, DeSmog said.
@@fractalelf7760 You mean outside of the most populous country in the world, and the third largest car market in the world. LOLOLOLOL. You're great, I haven't laughed that hard in a month! Thanks for that; Cheers. :)
@@beautifulgirl219 No, you are mistaken, not third. India is the world's largest car market and has the most and best roads in the world. People around the world are watching India's rapid rise to become a superpower
@@huas5350 My first post referred to India first, and the E.U. second. My second post referred to India first, and the E.U. second. Therefore, the E.U. is the third largest car market was my statement. Car markets being ranked by total number of yearly sales 2023: China (30M), the U.S (15M), then Europe (10.5M). India was 4M. Currently, the country with the highest road quality index is Singapore. The country boasts an impressive 6.10 QRI, the best in the world. South Korea is currently in second place and has a QRI rating of 5.90.
And what exactly is the U.S. IRA?? $7500 per vehicle for hundreds of thousands of vehicles per year. That's pretty much "billions per year" like you're complaining about. And that's just part of the IRA. Funny how only the USA is allowed to thumb their noses at world trade rules.
The US credits are for cars sold in US only. It's a far cry from subsidizing a company to sell cars abroad. This is what China is doing that the US is not.
@@rickagfoster Poor argument. II's still a subsidy to penalize foreign manufacturers, it's just applied at the other end of the trade. China penalizes foreign makers by subsidizing Chinese manufacture, U.S. penalizes foreign makers by subsidizing domestic made sales.
No one is forcing anyone to buy Chinese cars. If that's a true statement why are legacy companies crying wolf? A subsidy is a subsidy -all of them get them even profitable legacy companies (why do profitable legacy companies still get taxpayer money) that should be the first question.
It's the amount not just subsidies as is the issue. If the accusations are true then it's designed to bankrupt the auto industries in Europe and the US to take their market shares. If the 3 auto crying wolf what about the Chinese government crying wolf
Tesla claims to be wildly profitable. But they have never paid US corporate income tax and took $5 Billion in tax subsidies in 2023 as a one time adjustment, accounting for 1/3 of their net profits. That is why the Net is 50% higher than their EBITA. BYD actually beats Tesla in automotive gross margin (cost to produce a car vs what you sell it for). But Tesla, beyond spending less on R&D, gets significantly more in net profit due to regulatory credits and other subsidies.
@@Wongseifu548 BYD sold over 4 million NEV over the time period. If the amount is true, which includes aid during COVID 19 shutdowns, it is less than $1k per car. That is a fraction of what the US government gave Tesla over that time period.
@@b4804514Tesla sells BEV at profit. No one else does. Ford, gm, Toyota chickening out to hybrids. And Tesla innovation is to reduce construction cost, massively.
Sam... 1) make your source of info obvious 2) in the 7 minutes and 47 seconds I've spent on this video, I did not hear you mention once that Tesla was the 2nd largest recipient of direct Chinese subsidy. This is mentioned in the Kiel report you're "reporting" on. If you missed it, it's on page 13 of their policy brief: "The second largest recipient of purchase subsidies was US-headquartered Tesla, which received about Euro 0.4 bn (for about 250,000 BEV produced in its Shanghai Gigafactory). While the ten next highest recipients of purchase subsidies (for the overall period until 2022) are all Chinese, there are also three sino-foreign joint ventures (the two VW joint ventures with FAW and SAIC as well as SAIC GM Wuling) among the top-20 purchase subsidy recipients." It's one thing to clickbait with a title, it's other to be intellectually dishonest.
Ok, so China do large subsidies for exporters like they have this last 25 years, no surprise there. I suggest if the German auto market in China reduces substantially and they are threatened in their home turf too, then Europe needs to step in and sort it out. We need balance, especially in the auto industry which is so critical to Europe and the US. China has to lower it's ambitions in the US and Europe, there is just too much at stake for the West to just roll over and let China take over.
China give far greater subsidies? Do we have evidence for this or did far more automakers take them up on the offer, unlike western legacy auto. BTW their EVs are cheaper than the west because they've put in more effort and their EV manufacturing is far more developed than the majority of the west. The more mature the system the cheaper the product. I reckon China is ahead of Tony Seba's predictions.
I mean is it beyond the realm of possibility apparently that china is idk hiding the information? I mean they already removed their youth employment numbers
I understand the facts behind this news, but why should people be so obsessed with Tesla being detrown from being the top seller? Not everyone is going to buy a BYD or Tesla exclusively in the future! Variety will be good, as there is with ICE market these days
It makes more sense that the subsidies are there to keep the local prices low. Perhaps it would help explain why their cars are priced almost double overseas
Not sure if they are refering to VAT refund for export goods. That's nothing new and common practice in many countries. Funny when Chna came down hard on 10cent alib@b@ property developers they say chna anti biz. Now they say chna is subsidizing big bizs. Btw, what is the latest timeline for the collapse?
China is in a war against the west for a long time. They killed a lot of emerging industries in the west with the same tactics, finally the west is waking up.
buncha blind sheep consumers.. all they do is a look at a price tag with no thought behind the consequences of where their money is going, who and what it is supporting. There's a lot of things to criticize about how the west screws things up too.. but China is a looming, future shit storm building in intensity. And if and when it lets loose.. they'll all whine and moan and cry about the pain.. with no recognition of their own part played in building this mess.
And the US is okay with $7T in global annual oil subsidies. While they’re at it stop that too.
I call BS on that number
@@Notasalamanda Google it before replying. I’m right.
US is giving $6.7 billion to TSCM beat that china.
7T lol.
@@Notasalamanda That $7T number according to the IMF.
So, like all other countries, provide subsidies and grant to their companies , isn't the US and other country doing the same.
US subsidies under the IRA are far more, especially on a per-vehicle basis. BYD's Chinese NEV sales alone are roughly twice US total sales (PHEV's are considered EV's legally in the US due to GM lobbying to support the Volt).
Except that the China is an authoritarian regime and none too friendly to its neighbors. This matters, alot
@@reginald7214 Sino-Indian war, attacks on Philippine fishing vessels, the Nine-Dash Line, and the current beating of the war drums to take over Taiwan, to name a few.
@@reginald7214 Don't bother bringing up 100 year old wars, they are irrelevant.
If you don't like the west's conduct, explain why with a current war.
@@reginald7214 Not a pathetic list, but lets add another.
The Korean War. The CCP was MASSIVELY in the wrong on that one.
GM and Chrysler bailout of 2008 $17.4 billion. Hmmmmmm. is this government subsidies? Directly too?
I recall (but could be wrong ) that the US govt got equity for this and later sold the equity when the economic crisis eased.
Ford were offered as well but didn't take the money.
Most probably better to have let them go broke.
They paid it back. People like you seem to think it was a free check lol
Let's not forget the $25 billion General Motors bailout. About half of which, they did not pay back. The fact is, subsidy or no subsidy, BYD makes great cars and is a very tough competitor.
A bailout to keep a company alive is not the same as subsidizing a company so they can drive foreign companies out of business.
@@JorenMathews Exacty!!!!! If you dig into many of the "Pro BYD" responses and "The US does the same and worse" accounts you will see they are coming from Chinese Trolls as is the case with "ChickensAndGardening".
@@JorenMathews us subsidized boeing for the longest time to keep competition against airbus who is also subsidized by the E.U.
US has subsidized Tesla way more than China ever did with BYD. Now with the 50 billion in inflation reduction act, it's going to be even more.
Tesla never had any subsidies, that is fake news bs.
Not so. Give figures. It's not true.
lol not even close
Tesla gets no special favours from govt, none.
Says the CCP troll.
Oh the same as the Germans did to British Leyland and GEC/GE and Hotpoint and Thorn Electrical- what goes around comes around Germans.
Leyland killed itself.
@@markthomas7279 The Pension Red Robbo and His “Chums” got from a scheme that was paid into from an Off Shore dump fund came in a roundabout way from the MfS. They lived like lords on the breakup of the U.K. Motor Industry.
The US Govm't funneled $10B EACH into Ford and GM to crush Tesla. BYD is just more efficient in its use of capital.
No it isn't china is just pumping even more then the us did to gm and ford
BYD actually used the money for the cars.
GM and Ford used the subsidies to increase CEO pay.
That too...
@@lunatik9696 as well as UAW members.
Even Telsa have received $3B from united states government, it's normal thing to do. What I don't understand is, why China being blamed?
The US government has given American carmakers billions in support and tax incentives.
Kind of the same but not. Business runs America. Government runs China. Big bankroll difference. GM can get 50 billion from government to fight competition. China throws 500 billion into killing the competition. GM wants to rule the car world. China wants the world world. "United states the same" no. US wants the "Team" to rule. China is for China.
It sounds like you are not familiar with the American Tax incentives. Maybe you don't live in the US? or you are just un-informed? or both? US Tax incentives are to encourage individual consumers to purchase EVs. Any automaker can qualify for the incentives if they meet the qualifications (Mfg (final assembly) in North America and x% of battery components are sourced or processed US or from countries where US has Free Trade Agreement (12 countries ). That is very different than providing government subsidies directly to companies so that they can use PREDATORY pricing (sell below cost) to drive other manufacturers out of business so that they can eventually own the market. China has a long history of doing exactly this and blatantly stealing IP to gain advantages...e.g., not playing fair.
Right, it's nothing new. The whole world knows it ......
The electric Viking should not spread fake rumors without the proper caveats. In the US companies got huge subsidies to maintain employment during covid. And Tesla got billions in subsidies in China because their rules did NOT exclude foreign companies from getting
those subsidies. (much of Tesla's subsidies were from carbon credits for making EVs) The details are important and if you leave them out, to mislead people, it's propaganda.
US car companies got huge subsidies to.... well... not to go banckrupt in 2008.
if it was up to free market right wing capitalism, USA would not have car companies... including Elon Motors. 🙃
Tesla gotten more subsidies in China during 2020 at around $325m. Slightly more than BYD at $310m. It was a move by the Chinese govt to purposely help spur their own homegrown industry by pulling in Tesla. Many favorable deals were given to Musk and Tesla, including the very first wholly owned factory without a Chinese company invovled. China is known to do this. Sucker in foreginers then get their know hows and kick them out or start restricting them in favor of their own home grown. The subsidies for EV started during 2009 and some of their subsidies for most of their domestic brands includes, national, local, and consumer levels where the subsidies exceeds the price of the car they sell.
China (CCP) is subsidizing EV companies like BYD so that they can use predatory pricing to gain market share and drive other EV companies out of the market. They have a long history of doing this (e.g., Steel, Solar and now EVs). This is an illegal practice.
Carbon Credits per EV made are not gov't subsidies but penalty transfers per ICE paid by maker to Tesla et al.
@@anastigmatix4119 what about the EV tax credits?
"2.3 Billions from Chinese government"?!
If US "The CHIPS and Science Act" can "provides $52.7 billion for American semiconductor research, development, manufacturing, and workforce development. " , then what is wrong for "BYD gets 2.3 Billions from Chinese government”? if it is really happened.
US is giving $6.7 billion to TSCM beat that china.
The money is spent in the US internally - the other is for efforts which are designed to bypass trade agreements… good grief is that not obvious? Why do you guys try to always take Chinas side in everything when they have a clear record of IP theft, human rights issues and quasi-fascist government practices?
This is action, and others, is being taken in _response_ to China.
@@TheBooban Good point.
@@TheBooban Sorry I got lost. Do you mean the $52.7 billions in "The CHIPS and Science Act" just a number on paper?
All of the legacy motor manufacturers receive huge sums of taxpayers monies in the form of tax rebates, grants and incentives so nothing new there but it palls into insignificance to the trillions of dollars of public monies given to the oil and gas companies
It's one thing to give a tax break to the end customer who buys the car, it's quite another to give money to a company so that it can sell for less in a market that isn't its own.
You should look into the carbon credit, compliance credit, and other schemes/scams being exploited by carmakers which ultimately drive up all our costs, so that wealthier folks can enjoy cheaper EVs. Elon's said a few things about this. All at the behest of contextual fraud.
also those oil and gas companies sell the oil and gas cheaper to the same country (the USA) not in China so, it's not the same thing. If the chinese govt wants to subsidise byd to sell cheap cars to the chinese people then they should give them vouchers. But it's not that, they are giving subsidies directly to byd to sell cars in the west under the manufacturing price to destroy the local manufacturers. Also the european govt's are dumb enough to give tax cuts for the purchase of chinese cars.
Meanwhile, the federal and state governments pull about tens times the tax revenue from fuel sales than do the oil companies profit. Yep, 'bout a 1000% of what the oil companies get out of it.
You should spend some time in DC knocking some heads together and tell our ambitious handlers to stop all that silly crap, and demand EV manufacturers thrive by their own merit, not by forcing poor people to help make EV cars cheaper for wealthier people. See what that gets you.
You speak out of ignorance, at least in the US. US petroleum companies don't get any subsidies, just the same tax rules that ALL other companies (e.g., 3M, GE, Walmart, Microsoft, Amazon, etc.) get regarding depreciating assets, expenses, etc. If you are aware of some "secret" subsidy, please let the rest of the world in on it. I am not including government subsidies in some poor countries that apply to a wide range of food and energy at the retail level.
While the $2.3B in subsidies seem to be a lot, I don't think that they are a huge game changer and don't explain BYD's rapid growth. Every major german car company pays out more than twice that amount each year in dividends and the Gigafactory in Berlin cost about $5.5B.
That's more than enough to pay for all their employees. Do you think you can compete with your competitors if they have a free work force?
Yes, $2.3 billion isn't huge anymore
@@mitchnn Not even close. BYD had by the end of 2022 about 570K employees, and BYD is known to pay good wages in China.
Also, if a subsidy that amounts to less than $1000 per car allowed carmakers to reduce their prices by thousands of dollars, we shouldn't stop those subsidies; we should instead extend them to all other carmakers (though under the condition that they do, indeed, reduce prices).
The problem, though, is that much larger subsidies by the US and Europe don't seem to actually help reduce EV prices. I don't know, it's as if shareholders and leadership were just pocketing the money by padding dividends and bonuses.
@@timothykeith1367 In China it's huge. The labor costs are significantly lower than the west. Why do you think Apple, Tesla, and many other companies have factories there? Right now, most are shifting manufacturing to Vietnam, India, Mexico, etc. It's getting expensive and not worth the risk doing business in a nation that turned hostile since Emperor Xi's ascension.
You don't know how they expand so quickly? You yourself reported they've been buying abandoned factories around the world. That should give you an idea of their mentality.
Sam, you so quick to agreed with this western article, typical, so where is the evident? They already accused China, why not just show the evident?
They are major trading partners so they aren't going to lie about it.
It's strange to sell cars to Europe at a much higher price than in home country and called subsidies. Can't work out that logic.
Where is the evidence? All the white countries just make lies against China every one jump on the bandwagon. Where is the evidence on Huawei?
If the Chinese want to support their car industry that’s up to them. Of course no other country does this do they!!!!!
They can do that if they choose but they cannot use predatory pricing to dump products into other markets to harm the manufacturers in those markets. This is what China is doing.
@@Jetter638 COPE harder... in the global south, if we can buy a much cheaper chinese car... we will buy it... no more over pay for westoid products... China become no 1 car exporter in the world by hardly selling to US, Japan, Korea, low sales in EU... basically just Global South and Russia.
@@morganangel340Then go buy it. There's a reason why these things are cheap.
@@TH-camWatcher264 yes... there is... they are more productive than western companies... there is a reason why iPhones are made in China.
@@Jetter638 You understand that a significant portion of Tesla's US revenue comes from carbon credits, right?
The USA has provided billons to Taiwan Semi to build chip factories in Arizona and is now complaining about China subsidies. 😂😂😂
The US doesn't export cheap chips. That is for domestic consumption as US made chips will be more expensive. China uses subsidies to export cheap cars and undermine other economies.
It's not paying a US company. Case close.
@@r.l.8170 just so you know. Biden has given over 15 Billion to American automakers thru subsidies
@@100c0c I'll let you in on a little secret, there are no more subsidies for EVs in China, and the price of EVs exported from China generally goes up by 100 per cent
Chinese govt gave subsidies to Tesla too. Politicians running out of people to blame.
At a costs to Tesla. They were manipulated to share trade secrets.
According to Sam Evans, Tesla did not get direct subsidies that Chinese EV car makers did
Do you have any proof of ANY type of proof to support your statements or are you just talking out of your arse.
@@peterlai2858 you mean Sam ''Suckingelon'' Evans ?
Sam was talking about 'direct subsidies' i.e. preferential subsidies to Chinese companies. See his vid "masses of Chinese EVs clogging up European ports" a few days ago
It's normal for the Western government snd companies complaining when they lose the EV race.
The current reigning world wide ev sales leader is an American based company genius. 😀
race to what? to a self imposed shoot in the foot? Who mandates the adoption of the ev's china or the western countries? So western countries mandate the adoption of the ev's while china has no intention in doing so and there is suddenly a race.
ALL governments subsidise their auto industry. China chose EVs whereas the West chose ICE.
It's the technology that's out competing the West, not the subsidies.
No one can out compete the US on subsidies.
You can say the same thing about almost every US and European company.
There is no way China is giving money to prop up EV companies since China has thousand of them. Actually where does China find all these money to build the largest HSR, all the renewable energy technologies, longest high power transmission, greening the desert...etc. This is not even mentioning China only spending less than 2% of their GDP on defense. US is spending 3.1% of the GDP on defense.
So true!
US has hobbled the WTO by not allowing judges. So one country has hobbled the body that would be the arbiter of these trades disputes. This might be an indication of which party is breaking the rules.
Very much so. The US was sick of losing WTO cases relating to protectionist measures. And with the WTO accepting the concept of cross-sanctions - meaning the slighted country don't have to apply whichever sanctions it wins to the sector where the protectionism happened, where the sanctions would likely be useless anyway, but can instead select some other sector for the sanctions in order to maximize economic and political pain to the country guilty of protectionism - losing an WTO case was starting to sting.
US was dumb to push for China a non free market country to be able to join the WTO. Clinton got paid and that's all he cares for. Now the rest of the world have to suffer...
So why is this an issue when the Us government is doing the same thing with Tesla??
The US government wants to destroy Tesla, and Biden refused to even say "the T word" for years claiming GM is the pioneer of EVs in the USA.
Phillip.
Big/dirty Oil has been receiving subsidies from US govt for over 100 year-right now $644 Billion a year-to pollute & burn the country.
Germany won't do shit as VW, BMW and MB are still doing well in China and any sort of tariff would face immediate backlash for these companies.
Too late, the EU has already put restriction on importers that receive state aid in a manner that is illegal in the EU; why would the EU allow products into the EU that are subsidised in a way that would be illegal if manufactured in the EU?
German VW, BMW and MB are doing well? according to who? show me these facts please?
For how long though?
Spoiler: Barely 'till the end of the decade....
Ummm, US government provided 39 billion in subsidies for chipmakers to set up shop on American soil. How is this ok and a tiny 3.9 billion subsidy is not?
Because the 3.9 billion is just scratching the surface. If they did deeper they will likely find substantially more
@@Wongseifu548TSMC alone recieved 6.6 billion in subsidies to establish shop in Arizona. Intel probably received much more in comparison.
@@Wongseifu548 US chip restrictions were also specifically intended to cripple the high tech industry in China. Does this not also serve as economic attack to destroy competition?
@@albback8176 Wow its almost like your policies and subsidies were built to hurt not just American workers but workers all over the globe, so now you get a taste of what youre doing to everyone else. LMAO
@@Wongseifu548speculation. Only valid if they DO find more, like 10x more.
In the early 2010's the world was told that the climate change problem is really serious and everyone should commit to reduce carbon footprint and develop new source of energy. Everyone agreed "yeah yeah" and China went to boost their alternative energy industry (Wind energy, solar panels, electric cars, obviously through a lot of government subsidy), Now finally China can produce more and better EVs (and finally large chunk of Chinese consumers are considering their next car should be an EV) they are told "no no it is no good that you can produce more and better EVs, this is not fair"
What are Substantial subsidies ?
Intel : Yes
U.S. to reportedly announce billions of dollars in subsidies for advanced chips.
Georgia, Kansas, Michigan, New York, North Carolina, Ohio and Texas have made billion-dollar pledges for a microchip or EV plant, with more state-subsidized plant announcements by profitable automakers and semiconductor giants surely to come.
Sources: AP Reuters
And, of course, it was US Taxpayer subsidies to Tech that developed semiconsuctors, microprocessors and the Internet. Those profits yielded no dividends for taxpayers, and we're supposed to worship the "entrepreneurs" responsible...
At least the got value for money & moved the world forward 20years in 5 😊
Exactly. China went from no car industry, to large proportion being new EV/ BEV. Plus (some) being competitive on global market. Astonishing transformation, didn’t cost that much.
I want $20,000 EV. I don’t care about subsidy.
Chinas system is State Capitalism, and their express aim is to dominate every area of trade, manufacturing or whatever, a classic quick example is their steel being underpriced and dumping it on markets worldwide, naturally causing government internationally to put up trade barriers or tariffs to protect their local steel manufacturing, just to show you how ruthless China is, Australia only now produces a tiny amount of steel, let's say about 5 million tons, China produces close to 1 billion tons and dumps their steel onto Australia because their own market is dead because of their property crisis trying to get rid of excess steel and then complain to our government about putting up tariffs, so manufacturing one billion tons of steel and trying to wipe out another countries steel industry that only produces 5 million tons and is necessary naturally for multiple obvious reasons, their greed is incomprehensible.
Thank you! It's concerning seeing how many people here don't understand.
@@justinr9753 I agree with you. After 40 years of working, I see that many do not understand other than what they see on TikTok or TH-cam.
@@DaedaluLot of younger folks have poor awareness or critical thinking skills but were deceived in their education to think they were learning more - all they got was dogma.
load of crap from an uninformed and bitter aussie
China takes Australian iron ore, metallurgical coal, often at premium prices, pays shipping both ways.
Australia can’t compete because of lack of scale more than labour costs.
And old infrastructure.
Anyway, Aussies can make more in finance, law, as barista, in entertainment. Service economy. Why get dirty?
How about this? From Time magazine and this is GM alone and not including Chrysler in 2009. And GM China is the only group that contribute consistent profit until recently.
U.S. taxpayers lost more than $11.2 billion as a result of the federal bailout of General Motors, according to a government report released Wednesday.
The $11.2-billion loss includes a $826-million write-off in March from government investments in the “Old GM” before the company’s 2009 bankruptcy, the report said. The U.S. government spent $49.5 billion to bail out GM, and after the company’s bankruptcy in 2009, the government’s investment was converted to a 61 percent equity stake in the company. The Treasury gradually sold off its stock in GM, selling its last shares in December 2013.
@@reginald7214 yes, it's likely that all 3 will be in bankruptcy Court in the future just labour cost alone vs Robotic production process ( forced Robotic Labour as the US will use in the future) that can produce better quality and cheaper cars. The western countries represent 12 percent of the population and 88 percent of the population will have increasing spending power going forward. US and the Western countries can choose to pay for higher prices by protecting their industries and bailing them out again and the end result will be no industries left if open competition is not forced on them .
Tesla received a lot of support to set up that Shanghai factory as well,which turned out their best.
3.7b is about the amount of deficit depending to keep US federal gov operating for 10 hours, just to put it in perspective. Sounds like it is 3.7b well spend if u ask me.
Germany said also that they are the only one who could build a clean diesel car!
Sam,
Strategic investment =government subsidies
All governments are doing.
2.3 billion dollars is peanuts, you're forgetting is that Auto is worth 2.86 trillion dollars and Telsa is worth 535 billion on its own organically. While the inflation reduction act set aside 47 billion dollars in subsidies. Legacy auto and Telsa has also proven itself in the capitalistic markets, organization fail internally trying to prop it up from the outside is call throwing good money after bad, its a money pit.
So what if BYD is subsided? The only car company in the world that isn’t subsidised is Morgan.
According to the Federal Environment Agency, German taxpayers subsidize the automotive system to the tune of around 17 billion euros per year - and that's just for diesel subsidies, distance allowances, the company car privilege and the promotion of biofuels...not the entire money. At the same time, the transport sector is responsible for almost 30% of the EU's total CO2 emissions, of which 72% is attributable to road transport....and the negative results of that the taxpayers also pay to fix.
Tesla is getting subsidy billions every year in the US. For every 1 Million cars sold in the US Tesla gets $7.5B in subsidy not counting the additional billions for batteries. Ford/GM have been given Billions for things they haven't built.
In México it seems like BYD launches a car every two weeks
BYD is a listed company. U can check their accounts.
lol, you don't know Chinese accounting practices...
@@Notasalamanda And PWC or PricewaterhouseCoopers don't hide its accounting practices and gets away with it, and thats why china biggest real estate company Evergrande have so much debt and US expect china to bail them out.
@@Notasalamandaand you do? I know americas accounting practice... Its magic
@@marcs5117 We have auditing firms that are transparent and report to the public. Chinese companies were told a couple years ago to stop working with said transparent auditing firms.
Audited by Ernst & Young
Just like any other China bashing videos, they always starts with “study shows”. Who did the study? What is the method? How reliable is the data? Who is funding the research? How does it compare to the others? In today’s world, no media is fair or balanced, including this one.
Tesla has received over $9 billion from carbon credits. Where’s the outrage about that? The US also has a 27.5% tariff on Chinese imports. All countries support their own interests at least China is supporting clean energy and clean vehicles while US, Japan and Europe cling to fossil fuel and legacy vehicles.
I would be more outraged at Tesla never paying US corporate income tax due to tax subsidies. As well as them including $5 Billion in tax subsidies that they took as one time adjustment in their 2023 net income, amounting to 1/3 of their net profits. Beyond spending less on R&D, the reason Tesla falls behind BYD in automotive gross margin (cost of making the car vs. what you sell it for) but came out far ahead in net margin comes down to subsidies.
Classic false equivalence argument
Tesla was on the verge of bankruptcy until California threw it a life line via carbon credits and tax rebates. Tesla is probably one of the biggest corporate welfare queens, to this day.
No outrage because its US, double triple and quadruple standards.
thats why the germany fail behind, as the institue not to improve their tech but to find how others make money. sounds familiar right?
Good on China for investing in green energy! At least one country is serious about our environment so long may it last.
US officials dont stop yelling as they know the era of shaping the world economy for the US benefit to the detriment of poorer countries is over.
And at cost of addressing AGW.
It will be interesting to compare these subsidies on a per capita basis. If chinese subsidies is lower per capita than Europe’s then Europe has a much weaker case.
Yet they allowed Tesla to build a factory. I am missing something here. Probably easier to destroy the competition.
Any company that builds in china has to share intellectual property
That how China technology has leaped forward so fast since the 1980’s
@@edmccoy7248 Tesla is wholly owned by Tesla. No joint venture. Tesla does not make batteries, they buy them from CATL or BYD. There's no major battery producer in US or EU. What technology IP was shared?
China is very big on espionage and the theft of intellectual property
@@edmccoy7248 More like public universities. The Chinese can get higher education at a small fraction of what it would cost in the US, and the universities being public it means the government has control over which courses are offered and can prioritize fields where it wants Chinese technology to advance. Last I looked into it, for every engineer or scientist graduating in the US, China had 7 of them graduating.
There's a reason why many of the research teams in US companies and research institutes have a disproportionally high number of Chinese scientists. Which, incidentally, means that discrimination against them often causes those experienced researchers to pack up and go back to China, strengthening Chinese research with their experience while depriving the US of it.
China has passed the US in all the indicators for both basic research and applied research. There are more high-quality research papers from China in most cutting edge fields than there are from the US, or any other country (with paper quality determined by how often that research is mentioned by other researchers). It also files more patents than the US, and by a good margin.
(For batteries, though, there's another interesting issue. The patent holders for the core LFP battery patents charged large enough royalties that companies in most of the world thought it useless to improve on the tech, so it didn't advance. China, meanwhile, negotiated a deal which allowed Chinese companies to use those patents royalty-free as long as it didn't export LFP batteries before the patents expired, so Chinese companies were hard at work improving the tech, effectively giving China many years of head-start on LFP battery research despite the tech being originally from the US and Canada.)
Allowing Tesla to build and fully operate the factory in Shanghai was a strategic decision; it allowed a massive up skilling that would not have happened otherwise, tens of thousands of staff trained up in not only building EVs but also how to build and manage a massive scale EV factory. Xi's CCP are getting closer to a Leninist "Juche" as the days go by, so there is always the option to "nationalise" (shotgun buy out) of Tesla should the need arise.
Of note, the current crop of developed countries, without exception, made heavy use of subsidies while growing their industries on the path to becoming developed. They only became anti-subsidies when they reached the top and figured that if no one in the world was allowed to use heavy subsidies, no developing country could ever dethrone them.
I'm of the opinion that subsidies are a legal, and even moral, tool for developing industries, which every developing country should make heavy use of subject to some limits - limits that I don't think China is crossing.
Pretty much every government props up the auto industry
That's only part of it; part of it is strategic, but part of it is also jobs, so all governments will prop up their job market.
This is going to be interesting in the long run. We know they make them cheaper, but in the long run, do they hold up? When Toyota and Honda arrived on the scene in the 70s, it took like 10 years and everything changed with the price of their 4-cylinder cars being less, and their reputation for running forever. If China is going to be 1/2 the price of Tesla or whatever, will they be a YUGO or a Honda/Toyota? YUGO didn't make it. The cheap price wasn't worth it
Are all Chinese NEV companies treated the same? Otherwise, the other Chinese companies would be complaining. BYD would obviously get the most as its the largest. But it does make it easier to understand US tariffs
US tax breaks are for US built EVS for US taxpayers.
The US isn't subsidizing US car manufacturers per vehicle to sell vehicles in other countries
BYD can build a factory in US and qualify for the tax breaks. They just need to make sure they build the battery plant and everything else too...
Anyone who thinks Chinese subsidies are greater than those in the US needs to learn how to do math. It is simply untrue. It's a fraction as much per EV sold.
do what i say not what i do.
What’s the difference with Tesla and American government. Also TSMC just got 6 billion. Intel etc American farmers and sugar growers. Etc etc.
A word “Direct subsidy” means nothing. Just publish the data to let everyone review.
Have no problem if the US subsidies Tesla’s export price by 80% to our country.
Governments are best when they provide appropriate forward looking infrastructure and opportunities equally across vital parts the economy and education and research. When another country’s subsidies endanger this plan for a stable secure and wealth sharing future then tariffs and other actions are critical and appropriate.
Not yet verified
When you're dealing with a competitive disadvantage, there's no easier tactic than slandering your opponent.
Doesn't matter it's Chinese government and BYD problem not consumers and Western countries problem
and how much money did NASA give spaceX? lol. .
And for that got 10x-100x reduction in launch cost, freedom from Russian access to ISS.
@@iandavies4853 And china gets freedom from American EVs. What's the problem?
@@Jeff-zc6rr China (CCP) is subsidizing BYD for the expressed purpose so that they can use Predatory pricing to drive other manufacturers out of the market so they can own the EV market. Look at how BYD is dumping cars in the Europe.
I've been saying for a long time that it's not necessarily less expensive to build cars in China versus industrialized countries.
If cars in China were built to the same safety standards and the companies had to abide by the same environmental regulations the costs really are not that different.
This is why when you look at cars being built by Tesla in China the reality is that the costs are not that different. The reality is that the scale matters more than anything else. This is why general motors, XPang Ford and Neo all don't make any money selling electric cars they don't have the scale necessary.
Agreed, mostly.
Scale, not making a thousand variants, factory designed for efficiency, battery supply.
Lack of obstructive bureaucratic / legal / union / regulatory burden has to help too.
Western freedom & feather bedding comes at a cost.
Oh … and Chinese workers do work twice as hard as in US or Europe, "hungrier".
Our real problem is cost burden of stealerships.
@@iandavies4853 Wright's Law says that every time you double production of anything you lower the cost by right around 10-15%, so you look at the Model Y LR | in Jan. 2024 was selling in Europe for around $53.5K USD. or just under €50K. However, since production in the USA was around double of Germany, the price was around 12% less at around $48K. You then look at China where again they were producing double what the USA was making and of course in China it was selling for around 12% less than the USA at RMB 299K or around 42K. I used the LR version because it's the one that the most similar across the 3 continents but if you notice the USA has the highest wages of the 3, but the price is in the middle. It's like I said before the BIGGEST component is who is making more. The one making the most will have the best price.
@@TheCostofAutism 1. Wright’s Law isn’t a law, it’s a WAG at explanation of history projecting into future.
And the 10-15% varies by industry. I’d guess Tesla achieves way greater Wright’s advantage than does Ford, Stellantis.
2. Going different continents, different economies, is umm … challenging. Shanghai itself is a microcosm, isn’t representative of China as a whole.
Same for Austin vs Fremont. Land values, labour cost, regulations, shipping cost, access to Mexico, new construction (factory), new design, different batteries.
But I agree your basic premise, cost of assembly labour isn’t determining factor now, will be even less for future models (gen 3).
That’s only way for US to compete. (except China is pushing automation too)
I do feel Chinese are working harder, so giving better value per unit labour.
Germany & Fremont just offer so many obstacles.
@@iandavies4853 Measured over the decade to 2015, ARK, which is a Research Investment firm found that a price forecast based on Wright’s Law was 40% more accurate than one based on Moore’s Law. So while not exactly a Law per se, it does seem to provide a reliable framework for forecasting cost declines as a function of cumulative production. Especially when it comes to where for every cumulative doubling of units produced, costs will fall by a fairly constant percentage. Honestly you can't really argue with facts here, Tesla has 3 MAJOR production facilities for the Model Y and the one that's producing the least units in Germany, in 2023 was almost HALF of that of the USA and it's ~12% more, the one that's DOUBLE that of the USA is ~12% less. What better example of Wright's Law in practice than that? Of course sometimes you have companies like Apple that once they got to millions of units, their cost per unit dropped all the way from $600.00 per unit (adjusted for inflation) to as low as $200.00 per unit, but instead of passing those savings on to customers they decided to keep it and keep raising prices, making Apple THE most profitable electronics company in all of history.
@@TheCostofAutism another truism is that all costs are eventually labour or profit, just have to look up the supply chain to raw materials & machine that makes the machine. China still has an advantage.
Tesla reduces costs by design - of factory, of car, of automation. Slow ramp of cybertruck demonstrates it’s not all plain sailing.
Ark does good research, but it’s still as observer, not participant. As I am.
It’s correlation, not causation. Doesn’t factor in quality. Only works when ignoring period when Li prices skyrocketed.
The difficulty of ramping 4680 shows models only get you so far, eventually it’s blood, sweat & swear words. Hard yakka.
Correct me if I'm wrong, did Tesla get government subsidies?
Yes. Quantifiably multiple times as much.
From US govt for cars sold in US only. Ditto for other countries. US govt hasn't subsidized Tesla for cars sold elsewhere like China is doing. Yes the govt had granted Tesla loans early on, but Tesla paid them back in full, with interest, with early payment penalty. Hardly "free money".
It is commom accusation of West governments when they can not compete! BYD has more advanced tech than other legacy cars, that is the advantage it can compete with lagacy cars!
Government gave subsidiary to most companies in 2022. Seem like what most countries did during the pandemic.
If Germany said it does that make it true? Even if it were, does the preferential treatment German manufacturers get IN CHINA count? As Ola Kaellenius CEO of Mercedes said last month, 'Mercedes Benz is making China the world's top auto market, central to its next electric vehicle company starting in 2025'
Thanks you. I wanna take a share of China gov money.
Following an investigation around 2012, the European Commission discovered that China had provided $30 billion in financing to Huawei and around $15 billion to ZTE. So, not to downplay the message of this video, but compared to twelve years ago, a couple of billion being given to BYD to give it a financial advantage that it did not earn by selling a product with superior price/performance is already peanuts...
"if" this is true?
"Possibly" damning?
Hahaha 🤣
BYD is giving me the "Huawei vibes". If they become seen as a branch of the Chinese Communist Party, they could run into a ton of problems with Western government. But subsidies or not, the BYD Seal is still more expensive than a Tesla Model 3 in all the European countries I checked (Germany, Denmark and Sweden).
In China there is an EV subsidy. Whether it goes to the consumer or car maker depends on perspective. Same subsidy rates apply to vehicles from BYD, Tesla etc.... but most are on BYD sales because they sell the most cars. In Australia I also know many people who got a subsidy buying an EV.
Do other companies get subsidies in China? Sure Do they get it on the level that domestic companies in China get them? Not even close
Ohhhh... What about Berkshire Hathaway...??!
They have sold off more then 60% of their stake in byd
BH bought BYD stocks, not give free money to BYD
The US provides a $7,500 EV tax credit. Tesla sold 654,888 cars last year. 654,888*7,500 = $5 billion. So Tesla got $5 billion from the US government in 2023 just from sales tax, let alone other subsidies. It seems BYD received much less than many other car manufacturers then...
What? Doesn't the consumer get that tax credit, not Tesla?
BYD can get 7500 tax credit if they build cars made in USA.
@@reginald7214 BYD has full control over the battery tech, since it's not only vertically integrated but also the second largest battery maker in the world, so it could just source the raw materials from Australia or some other US ally and make the batteries itself on US soil.
It is, after all, planning to make the batteries for its Brazilian-made cars in Brazil. And I believe the same applies to other of their factories around the world expected to start production this year or the next. So making a new battery plant is no issue, at all, for them.
@@Random-yq1wu BYD would do that if both political parties wouldn't do a hissy fit whenever a Chinese EV or battery company even thinks about setting shop in the US.
Which is ironic because BYD already has a factory in the US making buses.
7:00 "for their industry" NO - every EV sold here gets subsidies
this is completely different from what China does.. the funniest thing is how China is bailing out companies all the time even if they would otherwise be unable to compete under market rules
NIO for example only exists because the party wants to keep the battery swap technologie ready just in case it will become a big thing
Where is the number come from?
One of the roles of government is to develop industries that sustain income to their populations. This occurs in every country that can fund development. It has now moved from a development discussion to one of strategy and tactics. Dependence on other countries has the potential to be detrimental in times of uncertainty. By investing in your own industries you promote growth, income and certainty by creating an integrated system of value added industries.
"Germany says"....trust me bro.
Let's hear the defence before believing them.
oh my, he said the magic words "think tank" - so, that's a good reason to be totally suspicious of anything they say, imo.
India’s Supreme Court expanded the “right to life” to include “protection against adverse effects of climate change”, adding that “climate change threatens ‘constitutional guarantees of equality and health’, impacting factors such as air pollution, disease, and food security”, the Independent reported. An editorial in the Indian Express described the decision as a “call to action”, adding that the significance of the ruling “cannot be overstated”. The European Court of Human Rights this week ruled that insufficient action to tackle climate change is a violation of human rights, DeSmog reported. In a “historic” judgement, the court ruled that Switzerland’s inadequate action on cutting emissions breached the rights to respect for family and private life of some of its most vulnerable citizens, DeSmog said.
Honestly - outside of those areas those rulings mean nothing.
@@fractalelf7760 You mean outside of the most populous country in the world, and the third largest car market in the world. LOLOLOLOL. You're great, I haven't laughed that hard in a month! Thanks for that; Cheers. :)
@@beautifulgirl219 No, you are mistaken, not third. India is the world's largest car market and has the most and best roads in the world. People around the world are watching India's rapid rise to become a superpower
@@huas5350 My first post referred to India first, and the E.U. second. My second post referred to India first, and the E.U. second. Therefore, the E.U. is the third largest car market was my statement. Car markets being ranked by total number of yearly sales 2023: China (30M), the U.S (15M), then Europe (10.5M). India was 4M. Currently, the country with the highest road quality index is Singapore. The country boasts an impressive 6.10 QRI, the best in the world. South Korea is currently in second place and has a QRI rating of 5.90.
And what exactly is the U.S. IRA?? $7500 per vehicle for hundreds of thousands of vehicles per year. That's pretty much "billions per year" like you're complaining about. And that's just part of the IRA. Funny how only the USA is allowed to thumb their noses at world trade rules.
The US credits are for cars sold in US only. It's a far cry from subsidizing a company to sell cars abroad. This is what China is doing that the US is not.
@@rickagfoster Poor argument. II's still a subsidy to penalize foreign manufacturers, it's just applied at the other end of the trade. China penalizes foreign makers by subsidizing Chinese manufacture, U.S. penalizes foreign makers by subsidizing domestic made sales.
So what? Every countries subsidize their own industry...but no one talk abiut it..
No one is forcing anyone to buy Chinese cars. If that's a true statement why are legacy companies crying wolf? A subsidy is a subsidy -all of them get them even profitable legacy companies (why do profitable legacy companies still get taxpayer money) that should be the first question.
It's the amount not just subsidies as is the issue. If the accusations are true then it's designed to bankrupt the auto industries in Europe and the US to take their market shares. If the 3 auto crying wolf what about the Chinese government crying wolf
Tesla claims to be wildly profitable. But they have never paid US corporate income tax and took $5 Billion in tax subsidies in 2023 as a one time adjustment, accounting for 1/3 of their net profits. That is why the Net is 50% higher than their EBITA. BYD actually beats Tesla in automotive gross margin (cost to produce a car vs what you sell it for). But Tesla, beyond spending less on R&D, gets significantly more in net profit due to regulatory credits and other subsidies.
@@Wongseifu548 BYD sold over 4 million NEV over the time period. If the amount is true, which includes aid during COVID 19 shutdowns, it is less than $1k per car. That is a fraction of what the US government gave Tesla over that time period.
they can subsidize as much as they can as long as i can get the car cheap,
for a consumer that is the healthy way to go
Tesla needs to do this to bring the vehicle prices down to make EV affordable to the middle class!
37,000 ???? brand new model 3 $329 a month lease???
@@b4804514Tesla sells BEV at profit. No one else does.
Ford, gm, Toyota chickening out to hybrids. And Tesla innovation is to reduce construction cost, massively.
My top picks for this bull run are Illuvium, Verasity and Cyberopolis.
Sam... 1) make your source of info obvious 2) in the 7 minutes and 47 seconds I've spent on this video, I did not hear you mention once that Tesla was the 2nd largest recipient of direct Chinese subsidy. This is mentioned in the Kiel report you're "reporting" on. If you missed it, it's on page 13 of their policy brief:
"The second largest recipient of purchase subsidies was US-headquartered Tesla, which received about Euro 0.4 bn (for about 250,000 BEV produced in its Shanghai Gigafactory). While the ten next highest recipients of purchase subsidies (for the overall period until 2022) are all Chinese, there are also three sino-foreign joint ventures (the two VW joint ventures with FAW and SAIC as well as SAIC GM Wuling) among the top-20 purchase subsidy recipients."
It's one thing to clickbait with a title, it's other to be intellectually dishonest.
Ok, so China do large subsidies for exporters like they have this last 25 years, no surprise there. I suggest if the German auto market in China reduces substantially and they are threatened in their home turf too, then Europe needs to step in and sort it out. We need balance, especially in the auto industry which is so critical to Europe and the US. China has to lower it's ambitions in the US and Europe, there is just too much at stake for the West to just roll over and let China take over.
China give far greater subsidies? Do we have evidence for this or did far more automakers take them up on the offer, unlike western legacy auto. BTW their EVs are cheaper than the west because they've put in more effort and their EV manufacturing is far more developed than the majority of the west. The more mature the system the cheaper the product. I reckon China is ahead of Tony Seba's predictions.
I mean is it beyond the realm of possibility apparently that china is idk hiding the information? I mean they already removed their youth employment numbers
I´m bullish on VRA, Joystream and Cyberopolis. What do you think guys about my picks?
I understand the facts behind this news, but why should people be so obsessed with Tesla being detrown from being the top seller?
Not everyone is going to buy a BYD or Tesla exclusively in the future!
Variety will be good, as there is with ICE market these days
But gm got 20 bill from tax payer 2 x
It makes more sense that the subsidies are there to keep the local prices low. Perhaps it would help explain why their cars are priced almost double overseas
You forgot to mention Cyberopolis. It will destroy other alts. Still early to ape in.
This is no different than the American companies get , there is no more to say.
It would be nice if Sam would provide direct information and links for sources.
Not sure if they are refering to VAT refund for export goods. That's nothing new and common practice in many countries.
Funny when Chna came down hard on 10cent alib@b@ property developers they say chna anti biz.
Now they say chna is subsidizing big bizs.
Btw, what is the latest timeline for the collapse?
Communists pretending to be capitalists.
The EU spends upwards of 50 billion propping up farming in the union.
Hmmmmm. Sounds like a non-story. BS from MSM. Don't fall for the FUD Sam.
Who has more of a history of cooking the books the eu or china....
This is a war, if you haven't yet realised. A war by stealth, but a war nonetheless.
And this war is against the west !!!
China is in a war against the west for a long time. They killed a lot of emerging industries in the west with the same tactics, finally the west is waking up.
Apply 100% import tariffs to account for the subsidies and slave labour they use in their factories.
buncha blind sheep consumers.. all they do is a look at a price tag with no thought behind the consequences of where their money is going, who and what it is supporting. There's a lot of things to criticize about how the west screws things up too.. but China is a looming, future shit storm building in intensity. And if and when it lets loose.. they'll all whine and moan and cry about the pain.. with no recognition of their own part played in building this mess.