There's also one more important thing regarding online gameplay - broken and harder client gaming. It's not a big deal on most difficulties since getting shot once or twice more hardly ever matters, but it can and will be very painful on death sentence. Generally cops can't shoot you when they're performing some sort of animations while spawning or simply climbing, but that is not the case if you're a client. As client, you can get shot by cops during their animations, so even if you're near some spawn point and they're using both hands to climb, it won't save you. The only solution is staying away from the spawn points which is not a game ending thing, but it's kinda dumb and causes clients to always be targeted more in such situations which also makes the experience less fun. Desync in general can break their entire targeting too. Someone from your crew can desync so hard they will be frozen in the air for you and every cop on the map will keep shooting them.
That' why i can't enjoy playing death sentence online anymore. Playing on lower difficulties online gets boring but so does playing alone on higher difficulty. I really hope overkill puts dedicated server option for payday 3 to prevent all this nonsense we are dealing with. Also love your vids
I actually completely forgot to mention the hilarious perk that is Bag of Tricks. Probably for the best as I don't think I could endorse standing still and crouching as a playstyle...
@@TheKknowley Actually is a my playstyle in turret build... I call it "Dodge without dodge". Optical Illusion skill + 6 turrets + crouch = Complete invisibility. Playstyle is mostly build around Turrets menagement but hey... its still something that can be done if you are bored and want try something frash. It is so funny, i suggest to check it out Kknowley, especially with DOZER mutator. Small presentation here: th-cam.com/video/r8vBp5PG-bQ/w-d-xo.html (build for build can be found in video description)
I massively respect the people who made the Long Guide because they had to reverse engineer all of these mechanics and/or look through PD2's source code which is... messy to say the least.
While I never learned the specifics, I did learn a couple of their quirks, for example: running a relatively short to medium distance from cover is safer than many people think and it's because the AI needs time to to stop shooting your teammates and shoot you instead, there's around 3 seconds of safety before the AI focuses on you. Also don't shoot back if you plan to move, as that will make them focus on you quicker. It's kind of more effective to pretend they aren't there so they also pretend you aren't there.
The arrest is also unique to street cops, security and gensec light swats (assuming cause they use the same preset as murkywater units for e.g. shadow raid), so you will never get arrested by any swat unit outside of mayhem and dw
Hey Kknowley, any chance you'll talk about Armor and Supression? I think it'd be an interesting topic since some people don't know exactly why their armor just sometimes regen longer when enemies are shooting at their general direction.
This is a thing I've ALWAYS wanted to know about the game for the 5 years I've played. I love to learn about the cop AI and I find it intriguing to know how it works. Thanks a bunch for the explanation
Cops choose how to shoot is due to 7 main factors. Factor 1. Optical Illusions, Elusive, And the card in burglar Factor 2. Is your gun surpressed? Factor 3. How far away are you? Factor 4. Is any targeting increasing thing enabled? (Injector, meat shield, etc.) Factor 5. Your gun's threat. Factor 6. Have you damaged them? Factor 7. Are there any objectives?
I absolutely LOVE these kinds of deep dives into the intricate mechanics of my favorite games, especially ones that explain the intricacies of video game AI. This was a great experience, please do many more. This type of video is my favorite.
The devs of payday are gonna do what they choose to do for payday 3 but I had an idea they could use to make combat more dynamic if they wanted to take a more tactical approach instead of the horde of ants approach in Payday 2. Use "commander" specials that can decide on tactical strong points in each environment, telling the basic grunts where to go and having the stronger ones be more in front or something, and utilizing the other specials properly. They spawn and can be killed to disorganized the cops. Maybe different versions of commanders would have different approaches, like a coward one that takes is more defensive and hides while using the cops to defend himself, an aggressive one that pushes near the front and causes the grunts to be very aggressive, and a strategist that does a lot of flanking and distraction attacks and stays mid range from the player. Maybe you could bring this idea to the devs cause I think it'd bring payday to a wider audience if the enemies were more interesting than a steadily encroaching horde. I've played a lot of Ready or Not lately which if you don't know is a spiritual successor to swat 4. The tactical gunplay has unfortunately made the payday gameplay feel dull by comparison, I wish for payday 3 to hit some of that tactical shooter vibe. It would potentially bring this great franchise to a new level
For people throwing fit that cover was Chains getting targeted, it has nothing to do with his color. He has perk deck where one of the perks is him having more focus fire on himseld, just to clear this out.
Cop: That guy has a minigun and a rocket launcher **The guy playing burglar with a minigun and a rocket laucher starts crouching** Cop: on second thought Imma just prioritise shooting that pistol boi over there.
Other intresting video idea is the stealth npc pathing, well if there's more to it than "oh they just path randomly on the path they were asigned to" ofc.
There's not much to AI pathing. When cool (unalerted) they pick one of any waypoints assigned to them in the map, and take any route there by jumping from waypoint to waypoint until they reach their destination. They take any available path at random, with the only restriction being that they can't pass through the same waypoint twice until they reach their destination. This is why if you open the dockside door on Shadow Raid, murkies will occasionally walk through the front door, around the yard, through the maintinence shed, and through that room. It's also why some guards will walk past a door only to turn around and walk through it. If a chosen waypoint can't be reached at all (balconies on SR while both doors are closed) they get stuck and will never unstick unless alerted. If an enemy alerts in stealth, they'll investigate the suspicious object and call it in when they're finished. An alerted enemy doesn't necessarily know a player is there, so you can force them to take longer by getting detected by them, where they'll investigate you instead (and try to arrest).
Knowly i have an insane chalnge run you need more peapole for it you play as 4 super hero batman green arrow the black canray and wild dog the ruls different for each but baysicly batman is allowed to use feast and throwin stars but not allowd to shoot the green arow is the robin hood chalnge but with out stoick canray can use gadget fists and throwing buzz bomb and wild dog can use only pistols take a think on it
Are you still up for challenge run?If so then i had one Can you beat Payday 2 by using only one tree: basically you can only use one skill tree like ghost or fugitive only and if possible try using perk deck that is similar to skill tree you using example: enforcer with stoic,armourer or fugitive with hitman and you can switch between skill tree and perk deck between each heist and also you should use heister that is similar to perk deck that you use like hacker with Joy or anarchist with Sydney
This is an answer for a question how Grinder + turrent still can be incredible good build. With right skill and turrets enemies mostly completely ignore your presence. I even record a proof as a part of my Turret build guide: th-cam.com/video/r8vBp5PG-bQ/w-d-xo.html
Three questions. First of all, how does priority work for cops going after objectives/hostages/bags/etc? Secondly, do the enemy cops share intelligence? Like, if one knows where you are, do they ALL automatically know where you are, or could some cops be investigating while others are engaging you? Thirdly, does detection risk play any part in Loud? (apart from dodge/crits of course). For example, is it harder for them to find you in the investigation phase?
I believe the long guide had mentioned something about concealment / detection risk playing a factor in loud. Though regarding if this factors into the priority points system, I'm unsure. "Players with detection risk 3 can be seen from 80 m away, whereas players with detection risk 75 can be seen from 180 m away."
iirc there isn't a priority for objectives/suspicious objects, once they detect one they lock onto it until their investigation either completes or fails (such as a drill finishing or an attacking player snapping them out of investigation). Even in loud, cops must detect a player to know they're there, but detection range is extremely high in loud and it's unlikely you'll ever make a practical difference by keeping yourself at 3 detection
He's _STILL_ making videos about the mechanics of this silly bank robbing game from 2013. THAT is how much depth there is to the mechanics of this game!
before I watch I want to guess and see how close I get, I am going to assume that suppressed weaponry, detection and looking at the enemy plays into it
From my understanding, they’ll target the player with the worst concealment and highest threat weapon that’s closest to them and doing the most damage first.
I have a theory about payday 3 and John wick chapter 4. Both are coming out in 2023, payday 3 will take place in New York, John wick chapter 4 has been being filmed in New York. There has also been a few crossovers already with John wick being in the game and some masks showing up in one of the John wick movies. I hope I’m right
:0 the heck is the gun with the screen on the back of them?(the smg looking one with the orange looking display and the shotgun with the blue display) Also this give me a little more appreciation to the game cause I always thought its just a simple "he is closer so I shoot him"
Anyone else notice sometimes the AI wears the wrong mask? Like I assigned the golden Dallas and chains masks to them and the clover rebirth to her but chains and clover switch masks 50% of the time and I have no idea why. I’m on Xbox one but idk if that makes a difference
Hey, love your videos, but I didn’t understand anything you said… if it’s not too much trouble could you explain the terminology… I’m an fps player not an RPG player
Not super relevant to the video but I just wanted to say that I'm super glad you're sponsered by Apex Gaming. My current PC is having.... issues to put it gently. Anyway I was overdue for upgrades anyway but thanks to you I didn't have to untangle the mess that is my current machine...... now I just need to wait forever for the new one to get here but that's ok (probably, I'm sure my current PC won't explode just yet)
There's also one more important thing regarding online gameplay - broken and harder client gaming. It's not a big deal on most difficulties since getting shot once or twice more hardly ever matters, but it can and will be very painful on death sentence. Generally cops can't shoot you when they're performing some sort of animations while spawning or simply climbing, but that is not the case if you're a client. As client, you can get shot by cops during their animations, so even if you're near some spawn point and they're using both hands to climb, it won't save you. The only solution is staying away from the spawn points which is not a game ending thing, but it's kinda dumb and causes clients to always be targeted more in such situations which also makes the experience less fun.
Desync in general can break their entire targeting too. Someone from your crew can desync so hard they will be frozen in the air for you and every cop on the map will keep shooting them.
Its so painful to do lab rats on dw/ds when those fuckers can shoot you while climbing those barrels
I can't count the amount of times I've been shot by cops climbing a fence
That' why i can't enjoy playing death sentence online anymore. Playing on lower difficulties online gets boring but so does playing alone on higher difficulty. I really hope overkill puts dedicated server option for payday 3 to prevent all this nonsense we are dealing with. Also love your vids
Step 1: equip burglar
Step 2: crouch next to team mates
Step 3: profit
Burgloud Gamers Rise Up
step 4: enjoy doing objectives as your team gets brapped
I actually completely forgot to mention the hilarious perk that is Bag of Tricks. Probably for the best as I don't think I could endorse standing still and crouching as a playstyle...
@@TheKknowley Actually is a my playstyle in turret build... I call it "Dodge without dodge". Optical Illusion skill + 6 turrets + crouch = Complete invisibility. Playstyle is mostly build around Turrets menagement but hey... its still something that can be done if you are bored and want try something frash.
It is so funny, i suggest to check it out Kknowley, especially with DOZER mutator.
Small presentation here: th-cam.com/video/r8vBp5PG-bQ/w-d-xo.html (build for build can be found in video description)
same thing with rogue's elusive although burglar superior
Nah mate: its whoever has the cooler mask
True
That’s why I’m always FUCKING DEAD
@@youwillbemissed3287 suffering from success
Me who has ahegoa mask lol
I have jimmy's duct tape mask.
*and i'm always targeted*
Well, I imagine they look for the group of insane people dressed in clown masks shooting everything in sight.
Nah, they shoot the 4 people who wore their glasses
Nah they look for the civilians
I massively respect the people who made the Long Guide because they had to reverse engineer all of these mechanics and/or look through PD2's source code which is... messy to say the least.
Yeah and it's messy enough that I think some stuff is even wrong, which is fair enough.
While I never learned the specifics, I did learn a couple of their quirks, for example: running a relatively short to medium distance from cover is safer than many people think and it's because the AI needs time to to stop shooting your teammates and shoot you instead, there's around 3 seconds of safety before the AI focuses on you.
Also don't shoot back if you plan to move, as that will make them focus on you quicker. It's kind of more effective to pretend they aren't there so they also pretend you aren't there.
*Defend your name.*
You're doing God's work brother
*I am still awaiting a response.*
Hey red you still do compilations? I keep forgetting you exist and it’s weird to think you play this game lol
@@Yesmanpersondude I don't, but I still play the game.
The arrest is also unique to street cops, security and gensec light swats (assuming cause they use the same preset as murkywater units for e.g. shadow raid), so you will never get arrested by any swat unit outside of mayhem and dw
it’s weird seeing you here and not in the mws discord lol...
@@strangerontheinternet7358 I'm everywhere
@@h0ppip who the hell are you?
@@linuxtuxvolds5917 I'm me
Hey Kknowley, any chance you'll talk about Armor and Supression? I think it'd be an interesting topic since some people don't know exactly why their armor just sometimes regen longer when enemies are shooting at their general direction.
from what I know, if you are being targeted then your armour will not regenerate(excluding anarchist)
@@alt1763 and hitman
This is a thing I've ALWAYS wanted to know about the game for the 5 years I've played. I love to learn about the cop AI and I find it intriguing to know how it works. Thanks a bunch for the explanation
Fun fact: the reason the cops are targeting chains over the other heisters in the thumbnail is because he's bla-
"my lawyers has told me to continue this joke no further"
this is a joke
at least that is what i tell the authorities
You mean black?
Good Ending: the cut off word was "blasting"
Blatantly the better target
Just thought about the thumbnail a bit longer. Good one Kknowley
Cops choose how to shoot is due to 7 main factors.
Factor 1. Optical Illusions, Elusive, And the card in burglar
Factor 2. Is your gun surpressed?
Factor 3. How far away are you?
Factor 4. Is any targeting increasing thing enabled? (Injector, meat shield, etc.)
Factor 5. Your gun's threat.
Factor 6. Have you damaged them?
Factor 7. Are there any objectives?
threat means nothing for targeting, its only is your weapon suppressed
@@alt1763 no, because suppressors don’t make noise, thus not increasing your priority
Factor 8. Are you playing Chains?
@@vam_ola yeah but 43 vs 30 would be the same targeting
@@aidengray3998 i see what you did there
I absolutely LOVE these kinds of deep dives into the intricate mechanics of my favorite games, especially ones that explain the intricacies of video game AI. This was a great experience, please do many more. This type of video is my favorite.
As a muscle main (don't have Scarface dlc) who likes to help new players, man I love my lmg
Ty for simplifying this for me! Keep it up!
When using AI teammates it’s pretty simple
1. It detects if you are the player
2. If you are the player, they shoot you
It could be just me, but when there's someone playing as Chains in the team, he's always the target.. not sure why
Well is can be narrowed to 3 things:
Your team just has less threat
He's going loud while the plan is to go stealth
Or
Because he's bla-
...blasting! He's doing too good of a job blasting the cops!
Did you know that cops are 20% more likely to target chains, this is a reference to the fact he’s bla-
The devs of payday are gonna do what they choose to do for payday 3 but I had an idea they could use to make combat more dynamic if they wanted to take a more tactical approach instead of the horde of ants approach in Payday 2.
Use "commander" specials that can decide on tactical strong points in each environment, telling the basic grunts where to go and having the stronger ones be more in front or something, and utilizing the other specials properly. They spawn and can be killed to disorganized the cops.
Maybe different versions of commanders would have different approaches, like a coward one that takes is more defensive and hides while using the cops to defend himself, an aggressive one that pushes near the front and causes the grunts to be very aggressive, and a strategist that does a lot of flanking and distraction attacks and stays mid range from the player.
Maybe you could bring this idea to the devs cause I think it'd bring payday to a wider audience if the enemies were more interesting than a steadily encroaching horde.
I've played a lot of Ready or Not lately which if you don't know is a spiritual successor to swat 4. The tactical gunplay has unfortunately made the payday gameplay feel dull by comparison, I wish for payday 3 to hit some of that tactical shooter vibe. It would potentially bring this great franchise to a new level
Blud knew what he was doing in that thumbnail 😭😭😭
Any chance for a video about the other specials?
I think a Captain Winters video would be epic.
The cops aiming at Chains💀
For people throwing fit that cover was Chains getting targeted, it has nothing to do with his color.
He has perk deck where one of the perks is him having more focus fire on himseld, just to clear this out.
The long guide is truly the holy Grail of payday 2 knowledge
Cop:
That guy has a minigun and a rocket launcher
**The guy playing burglar with a minigun and a rocket laucher starts crouching**
Cop: on second thought Imma just prioritise shooting that pistol boi over there.
Love your guides. Intersting, informative and helpful. Keep it up!
Other intresting video idea is the stealth npc pathing, well if there's more to it than "oh they just path randomly on the path they were asigned to" ofc.
There's not much to AI pathing. When cool (unalerted) they pick one of any waypoints assigned to them in the map, and take any route there by jumping from waypoint to waypoint until they reach their destination. They take any available path at random, with the only restriction being that they can't pass through the same waypoint twice until they reach their destination. This is why if you open the dockside door on Shadow Raid, murkies will occasionally walk through the front door, around the yard, through the maintinence shed, and through that room. It's also why some guards will walk past a door only to turn around and walk through it. If a chosen waypoint can't be reached at all (balconies on SR while both doors are closed) they get stuck and will never unstick unless alerted. If an enemy alerts in stealth, they'll investigate the suspicious object and call it in when they're finished. An alerted enemy doesn't necessarily know a player is there, so you can force them to take longer by getting detected by them, where they'll investigate you instead (and try to arrest).
Thx for making payday content I've been looking for a good payday youtuber and you're videos are always entertaining
Knowly i have an insane chalnge run you need more peapole for it you play as 4 super hero batman green arrow the black canray and wild dog the ruls different for each but baysicly batman is allowed to use feast and throwin stars but not allowd to shoot the green arow is the robin hood chalnge but with out stoick canray can use gadget fists and throwing buzz bomb and wild dog can use only pistols take a think on it
Are you still up for challenge run?If so then i had one Can you beat Payday 2 by using only one tree: basically you can only use one skill tree like ghost or fugitive only and if possible try using perk deck that is similar to skill tree you using example: enforcer with stoic,armourer or fugitive with hitman and you can switch between skill tree and perk deck between each heist and also you should use heister that is similar to perk deck that you use like hacker with Joy or anarchist with Sydney
This is an answer for a question how Grinder + turrent still can be incredible good build. With right skill and turrets enemies mostly completely ignore your presence.
I even record a proof as a part of my Turret build guide: th-cam.com/video/r8vBp5PG-bQ/w-d-xo.html
Step 1: use rogue
Step 2: go close to your muscle teammate
Step 3: Dont make any noise or shoot
Step 4: get shot more than your teammate
i wonder why is all cops aiming at chains, is it because he's... *OH*
Although chains makes up 1/4 of the team he makes 53% of the kills
I’d love to get a gaming pc, but I’m like broke, so I’ll stick to having everything on low and playing in 800:600 or something like that
The based budget gamer
Same lmao, i play on 800x600 and its small as shit, but as time goes i just feel normal playing with small screen than full screen now
TheRussianBadger already found this out: it’s whoever doesn’t have a giant spoon
What is the music called that plays at 7:35? I've been looking for it awhile but unfortunately I cannot find it..
Hey I was wondering if you could do a build for DS/OD any time soon?
I heard that VR players have a higher likely-hood of being targeted. How does that factor into this?
I feel like chains would get shot alooooot....
Three questions.
First of all, how does priority work for cops going after objectives/hostages/bags/etc?
Secondly, do the enemy cops share intelligence? Like, if one knows where you are, do they ALL automatically know where you are, or could some cops be investigating while others are engaging you?
Thirdly, does detection risk play any part in Loud? (apart from dodge/crits of course). For example, is it harder for them to find you in the investigation phase?
I assume that cops attacking will not snap others out of investigation mode because then running around avoiding cops would not keep them at bay.
it would make sense for them to share intelligence since they seem to have some kind of radio from the dialogue you hear between waves
I believe the long guide had mentioned something about concealment / detection risk playing a factor in loud. Though regarding if this factors into the priority points system, I'm unsure.
"Players with detection risk 3 can be seen from 80 m away, whereas players with detection risk 75 can be seen from 180 m away."
they share information within their squad, so if one enemy detects you, their entire squad gets a nootice of that
iirc there isn't a priority for objectives/suspicious objects, once they detect one they lock onto it until their investigation either completes or fails (such as a drill finishing or an attacking player snapping them out of investigation). Even in loud, cops must detect a player to know they're there, but detection range is extremely high in loud and it's unlikely you'll ever make a practical difference by keeping yourself at 3 detection
Nah bro the thumbnail
step 1: check if chains is in the team
i love how in the thumbnail chains is the only one targeted because hes black
well, in the thumbnail, they seem to chose the same way as cops in real life
They always prioritize chains for... Pickle reasons
Chains first ofcourse
so im watching this a year later and i dont think knowley realized at the time theres something wrong with that thumbnail 💀💀
He's _STILL_ making videos about the mechanics of this silly bank robbing game from 2013. THAT is how much depth there is to the mechanics of this game!
I think it's just called 'milking the game'.
@@augustyntchorzewski7615 well, it's not really milking if you're still having fun with it
6:10 oh so thats why when i go down the ai and cops basically become friends and resume fighting when i'm back up
system: complex and innovative
dodge build: im about to end this mechanic's whole career
Since the game is set in america we all know that they prioritise whoever is playing chains.
before I watch I want to guess and see how close I get, I am going to assume that suppressed weaponry, detection and looking at the enemy plays into it
Prioritize Chains
From my understanding, they’ll target the player with the worst concealment and highest threat weapon that’s closest to them and doing the most damage first.
I just assumed they targeted whoever was having the best heist of they're life and end that streak
It's almost midnight and I have homework to do, but this is more important
me a solo player: this is both useful and useless. now, i shall abuse this system in cloaks prison.
"how do the cops choose who to shoot?"
*has a thumbnail with all the cops shooting at the black guy*
I have a theory about payday 3 and John wick chapter 4. Both are coming out in 2023, payday 3 will take place in New York, John wick chapter 4 has been being filmed in New York. There has also been a few crossovers already with John wick being in the game and some masks showing up in one of the John wick movies. I hope I’m right
All I know is that if the heist is set in America and I'm playing Chains...I'm getting shot to shit.
Do what you will with this information.
You didn't mention the VR specific modifiers!!! Dude!
:0 the heck is the gun with the screen on the back of them?(the smg looking one with the orange looking display and the shotgun with the blue display) Also this give me a little more appreciation to the game cause I always thought its just a simple "he is closer so I shoot him"
New wasp smg in jiu Feng Smuggler pack 4. You need an attachment to get the screen though
They can't shoot you if they're all dead.
what gun are you using for your anarchist build in the video
chains as a secret passive
Just realized this video isn't in your official How Payday Works playlist
Hey kknowley what mod do you use to make ur Judge iron sight like have blue light ?
Lower receiver mah fren
Ok note
Never use leach with a rouge or hacker perk deck noted
7:14 man just came back from the Backrooms
Anyone else notice sometimes the AI wears the wrong mask? Like I assigned the golden Dallas and chains masks to them and the clover rebirth to her but chains and clover switch masks 50% of the time and I have no idea why. I’m on Xbox one but idk if that makes a difference
Often they don’t shoot at all. Unless you are downed.
They dont attack al , thats where im just decoy in mid of war
You did not just make chains the only one being targeted in the thumbnail and get away with it
It's part of the perk deck associated with the character
Why the thumbnail gotta have them all aiming at Wolf lol
Every game the cloacker catches me, either because I'm strong or camper
That thumbnail was 100% intentional
The thumbnail seems like an american police joke
does detection risk make cops shoot you?
Answer short. Of how to get cops to shoot at you,
Step 1. Get the build that cops will target you more.
Step 2. If that isn't enough targeting. Get VR
Silencers are basically broken in notoriety, half of the time they only do a little to dmg and in entry, it’s practically an upgrade
does this look like roblox to you
@@noobslayerxxx does to me.
step 1 : is chains on the map. step 2 shoot chains
Discord and TH-cam notification gang rise up
how to get poco and pat??? (links)
PLEASE I BEG
i once ran around meleeing a bunch of swat then got handcuffed
i was confused
all i know is the bigger the guns and armor to more fun i have slaughtering enemies
Yo I wanted you to do a challenge
Beat PAYDAY 2 With Clone army mutator enabled (Medic)
My question is how VR effects targeting.
Hey, love your videos, but I didn’t understand anything you said… if it’s not too much trouble could you explain the terminology… I’m an fps player not an RPG player
Bro I wish I could play this game again but now I can't play on 1080 without going on 25 fps even though my performance was fine before
Do jokers have the same priority as crew AI?
It's easy to know. They all shot me.
If there's a Chains in the crew, He is targeted the most
*subtle rascism joke*
magic
Chains is in a pickle
Whenever I see these info vids I wonder if any of it applies to console, I need a pc
Not super relevant to the video but I just wanted to say that I'm super glad you're sponsered by Apex Gaming. My current PC is having.... issues to put it gently. Anyway I was overdue for upgrades anyway but thanks to you I didn't have to untangle the mess that is my current machine...... now I just need to wait forever for the new one to get here but that's ok (probably, I'm sure my current PC won't explode just yet)
I'm a simple man. I see Clover, I click.
Today I learned cops can handcuff you. It's always been the hard way
whats the secondary out of intrest
short answer for me , they don’t because i run muscle