Will & Michelle were AWESOME people and Will was a positive instructor hands on and an inspiration to me! As a female, and an architecture student at age 18 & 19 I spent the best part of my summers learning from these craftspeople. I will never ever forget Michelles warmth and delicious wholesome meals and feeling like this is the quintessential place to be on earth, with them in their perfect element. Made friends and memories to last a lifetime too! Denise, N.J.
I'll be doing a lot of this in the near future, to get my 250 year old german wooden-beamed house back to her former splendour. francis, thanks for posting this and your other videos :)
Job is perfect ! Thanks for sharing your time and talent !! There is one secret that is shown too fast : 3mm excentration of 2 holes ( at 3:20 ). This explain why the final join is very tighly closed.
Larché Jacques Clarel Many thanks, the draw bore is a very important part of timber framing , it makes a massive difference in the rigidity of the structure.
Nie ma szkół dlatego nie ma fachowców.W Stanach są takie szkoły ,robią kursy kilku dniowe i uczą jak budować całe domy z takimi łączeniami .W Polsce każdy fachowiec uważał ze nie ma po co uczyć sobie konkurencję a teraz nie ma już fachowców i następców .Są jeszcze jednostki pojedyńczy ludzie ale jest ich bardzo mało i większość nie ma czasu chęci lub pracują na zachodzie żeby uczyć nowe pokolenia .
I love this dang video. I keep going back to it. Good lord, I’d love a chain mortiser. Or a barn beam auger seated drill press. I liked their peg hole drilling jig/platform for their power drill. I need to figure out/draw up/find some plans and make one of those. I did some sawhorses recently out of 6x6 and I couldn’t draw bore the tenon because I couldn’t drill a straight hole through both sides of the empty mortise cavity with my spade bit and it wouldn’t line up when I plunked the tenon down in it. Had to drill the hole with the tenon in.
You probably already solved this problem by now, but in case others read your post and have the same problem, you can use a longer, small diameter drill bit to drill through the entire (empty) mortice to get your alignment, then go back and drill each side with your spade bit using that first pilot hole.
That's really look nice... my dad was a carpenter did awesome job Everyday but I don't have his awesome talent.. I turn up to be a flight attendance and now regret.. Rip dad I miss u
In my 37 years of carpentry .. Many will try to bust on another's technique , Whatever it takes !! is my motto . and as a master timber framer .. In all my years , Unless the job is a square .. It is best fitted piece to piece and well thought out .. I have seen "Packages " come out that were computer generated and milled per plan and didn't fit " No dry fit " and calculation done in a perfect world that didn;t consider the imperfections and vagaries of that timber . Sharp chisels , a planer , a skilsaw , deft measurements .. I personally like a ferocious meat eating angle grinder .. .. One of the lovely things about specialized timber framing .. You can easily make more than a Dr .. and have fun doing it
Thanks for your comment, its always good to hear from a trades man that can understand what hes looking at. I made these couple of joint example videos to show customers the process of building timber frames I never guessed they would be popular. thanks for watching.
Very well done job and educational video, one can learn alot about joiner joints, marking,scribing,measuring and how to cut a corner with this job but do not necessary have to use same power tools like you, ya I like it, thanks for sharing.
Awesome thanks for sharing.How would you do a multiple notches??? In a 2" x 4" X 30" I need a make 10 notches with 1" of separation from each other and 1.5" wide and half inch deep what will be the faster way to do it ?? any ideas ??
I have a feeling that this has to be a much stronger way of building than how most houses are built today...some pine 2x4s and a few nails here and there.
+AJohnson0325 some buildings using this type of construction have stood testament to hundreds of years use and appear they will be around for hundreds more. Thanks for watching
My house is 215 years old and still standing straight and all the joints are make like we saw in the video. The rafters in the attic are joined at the top with pegs and are numbered using Roman Numerals - easier to do as there are no curves in roman numerals.
When I cut tenons with the saw to waste method like that I run two or three cuts right next to each other at the shoulder, then the bit the handplane misses at its edge doesn't need planing down.
+BowHunter77 using a drill guide (like my portable drill press - search for video), drill out the majority of the material then set to with mallet and chisel. Lots of hard work, but fun and lots of learning in the process.
Francis Barnett thank you very much for your reply, I really do fancy giving this joint a go, it's so nice to see that craftsmen can still produce this quality of work with mostly hand tools (and a circular saw)
I really love doing post and beam joints , there are so many and when you finish the, you can admire them , like wow I’m awesome , good job I wish I could find a video of old houses being built , so far only found one and the volume is down . The others don’t really get into too much detail
8 ปีที่แล้ว +1
The wood is so beautifull, that we can mind that it's a plastic wood. You rock man !
+Andy Brumleve when I eventually get round to it I plan on doing a video on timber framing tools, including this home made portable drill press. Thanks for watching.
Richard Cowtails Its not really that big power wise, its all about the control and parallel plunge into the work piece, think of chainsaw cross with router.
Francis Barnett Hi and compliments for you great work i want to know what tools you use brand /model/power if is not a secret .Thanks a lot keep doing nice vids ;)
This clinches it. Building a chicken coop this week and have been planing on some framing metal and dowel joints but nope - definitely M&T on it now. Gives me an excuse to use my new chisels anyway.
My current hobby is woodcarving rather than the timber frame day job stuff, i understand the no power tools approach, its very rewarding and even more of a workout. Thanks for watching.
Sadly one couldn't make any money if timber was all split by hand for a Frame, side axed and whatever -it would take so much longer and be un-competitive. Using mechanical saws/chain morticers is just as skilled as using hand tools- your marking out still has to be spot on. It is likely that the original timber framers from yonks ago would have ''worn out'' much quicker, simply because of the arduous physical strength needed..arthritis is often found on old excavated skeletons of men in their 40's. Show them a skillsaw or a chain morticer, and they'd have been on it like anything :) Would have made their lives easier for sure.
Great demonstration Francis thank you for making it available. I was intrigued by your hand drill jig, is that something you fabricated yourself? Could you share your process perhaps.
+Mike Mills I mostly just use Makita saws, I think the small one you refer to is a hypoid saw from the USA, sadly not available elsewhere. Thanks for watching.
Hy, I like your work. I'm a trainee carpentry student. any chance you could make a video on how you made your drill jig which works same as drill press? UK fan
I want to do this for my bed frame, but I'm terrified of plunging too much of the circular saw blade...I know you say "don't copy me", but just wondering if there is a trick to preventing kickback when going so deep with the saw...especially in douglas fir.
Slap Stick if you are new to wood working try running your saw through scrap timber first. make a series of cuts getting deeper as you go along a line, you will then get the feel of the saw. Always be ready for a saw to 'kick' or bind in a cut, be ready to hold the saw and release the trigger, never stand directly behind the saw. Practise.
Francis Barnett Yes, I've been wood working for a while, but generally staying away from deep cuts with circulars, since thats how it was taught to me. I've bound up before, and its heart stopping even when off to the side. Its a good idea to practice first. I think I'll do it in stages. Two inch depth, chisel, then repeat. Do you believe those special blades for pressure treated lumber are any better? Thanks!!
I bought this one from ebay, its Ryobi, I don't think there made anymore. Makita make a similar, and Myfel make a cross grain one. Thanks for watching.
It's both a chain mortiser or chisel mortiser depending on wether you use a chain or chisel, in his case it's a chain mortiser because it's like a small thick chainsaw (I think you can swap them out on the same machine)
Not a chance, I would drill the peg holes through both sides of the wood on either side of the mortice. I also would mark the holes through the tenon inboard by 1/16 - 3/32" so when the pegs are driven through they put the tenon under tension because of the purposeful misalignment and pull the joinery tight
I have always wondered about the mechanical strength of this type of joint. You basically reduce the effective 'strength' to one third (more or less) of the total beam. So why leave the rest of the wood on the beam (use a thinner beam)? I also have seen similar joints that sink the entire beam into the upright (sorry I don't know the names) so it is fully supported and only use the pegs to stop it from sliding out. But then the upright can get flimsy...
This joint is near always used in compression (as all good timber framing is). The load is passed through the post and beams shoulders of the tenon not the end of the tenon. The pegs are used to pull the joint tightly together (draw bore). Hope this response helps. Thanks for watching.
Missy Rabbit it's called "Plastic Milk crates ", they each hold 4 gallons of milk. Does that answer your question? Or are you talking about the " Plunge Tenon " cutting machine?
You know, I hate to bash the home team, but here in the U.S. of A. our doors really are rubish. I am planning on making some interior doors that look very U.k. cottage, like ledged doors, with those old-timey Suffolk style hinge. Any thoughts on interior doors?
![making the strongest 3-way leg joinery / castle joint [woodworking]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/OJ8V_rzwxh0/mqdefault.jpg)
Will & Michelle were AWESOME people and Will was a positive instructor hands on and an inspiration to me! As a female, and an architecture student at age 18 & 19 I spent the best part of my summers learning from these craftspeople. I will never ever forget Michelles warmth and delicious wholesome meals and feeling like this is the quintessential place to be on earth, with them in their perfect element. Made friends and memories to last a lifetime too! Denise, N.J.
I'll be doing a lot of this in the near future, to get my 250 year old german wooden-beamed house back to her former splendour. francis, thanks for posting this and your other videos :)
Job is perfect ! Thanks for sharing your time and talent !!
There is one secret that is shown too fast : 3mm excentration of 2 holes ( at 3:20 ). This explain why the final join is very tighly closed.
its the biggest tenon i have ever seen. I never thought that drawboring techniques can be used on timer framing as well ...great video Francis.
Larché Jacques Clarel Many thanks, the draw bore is a very important part of timber framing , it makes a massive difference in the rigidity of the structure.
Lol i guess it requires much more strength compared to furniture especially in terms of structure and weight
You gotta love the sound of woodworking. A satisfying video.
+Cry crust you're very welcome
+Cry crust you're very welcome
Just tried this way on a 6x6 spruce timber. Like a glove. Thanks for the video
Thanks for watching
Great instruction without saying a single word! Wonderful!
It's all about fusion, it worked out well for you.. Love the use of both modern and old fashioned tools. Wish I had the same machinery ;)
+Tjeerd van Gennep old hand tools are the best, the steel is of a better quality. Thanks for watching
That drill jig just won you a new subscriber. Great idea👍
THIS IS Exactly WHAT I’ve been looking
For. Thanks for the awesome video. Quick and efficient.
Aww, he gave it a big hug.
Świetna robota dziś już nie ma takich fachowców co by umieli takie połączenia zrobić
Nie ma szkół dlatego nie ma fachowców.W Stanach są takie szkoły ,robią kursy kilku dniowe i uczą jak budować całe domy z takimi łączeniami .W Polsce każdy fachowiec uważał ze nie ma po co uczyć sobie konkurencję a teraz nie ma już fachowców i następców .Są jeszcze jednostki pojedyńczy ludzie ale jest ich bardzo mało i większość nie ma czasu chęci lub pracują na zachodzie żeby uczyć nowe pokolenia .
Looking to jazz up a pergola project and this should do well. Please keep the "tutorials" coming.
Philip Gard Thanks for watching.
I love this dang video. I keep going back to it. Good lord, I’d love a chain mortiser. Or a barn beam auger seated drill press. I liked their peg hole drilling jig/platform for their power drill. I need to figure out/draw up/find some plans and make one of those. I did some sawhorses recently out of 6x6 and I couldn’t draw bore the tenon because I couldn’t drill a straight hole through both sides of the empty mortise cavity with my spade bit and it wouldn’t line up when I plunked the tenon down in it. Had to drill the hole with the tenon in.
You probably already solved this problem by now, but in case others read your post and have the same problem, you can use a longer, small diameter drill bit to drill through the entire (empty) mortice to get your alignment, then go back and drill each side with your spade bit using that first pilot hole.
wow that chain mortiser is epic! I love tools.
+MaghoxFr You'll enjoy this new video of mine then! th-cam.com/video/OZRtxrfQ_f0/w-d-xo.html Thanks for watching.
sangs
Thanks for your
Haw are you
The video mine then
An absolute joy to watch bro. Thankyou
That's really look nice... my dad was a carpenter did awesome job Everyday but I don't have his awesome talent.. I turn up to be a flight attendance and now regret.. Rip dad I miss u
+NewbieTech H thanks for you comment.
True craftsman, very neat work.
Where in the world did you get the hand drill mount/holder that you attached to the sliding piece of that drill press???
helo francis i have a question
why the 2 pic does not cross the wood?
for better assemblage ?
thk u
In my 37 years of carpentry .. Many will try to bust on another's technique , Whatever it takes !! is my motto . and as a master timber framer .. In all my years , Unless the job is a square .. It is best fitted piece to piece and well thought out .. I have seen "Packages " come out that were computer generated and milled per plan and didn't fit " No dry fit " and calculation done in a perfect world that didn;t consider the imperfections and vagaries of that timber . Sharp chisels , a planer , a skilsaw , deft measurements .. I personally like a ferocious meat eating angle grinder .. .. One of the lovely things about specialized timber framing .. You can easily make more than a Dr .. and have fun doing it
Thanks for your comment, its always good to hear from a trades man that can understand what hes looking at. I made these couple of joint example videos to show customers the process of building timber frames I never guessed they would be popular. thanks for watching.
What is the yellow stain that is applied to the rough tiber before it goes outside?
Very well done job and educational video, one can learn alot about joiner joints, marking,scribing,measuring and how to cut a corner with this job but do not necessary have to use same power tools like you, ya I like it, thanks for sharing.
Many thanks
That might be the coolest thing I've ever seen
+the_culture thanks for watching
+the_culture thanks for watching
Great bit of Joinery, love these videos. From one joiner to another keep it up. like the scarf joint one too.👍😊
many thanks
Impressive demo! Your mortise-cutting machine was fabulous! Your vertical drill jig was instructional.
+Rich Rombalski thanks for watching
Awesome thanks for sharing.How would you do a multiple notches??? In a 2" x 4" X 30" I need a make 10 notches with 1" of separation from each other and 1.5" wide and half inch deep what will be the faster way to do it ?? any ideas ??
If the notches needed to be identical, I would probably set up a jig with the router then clean up the corners with a chisel. Thanks for watching.
+Francis Barnett
I appreciated it!!! Thanks 👉🏻👉🏻
Excellent work. Never saw a drill jig like that. The video work is excellent also. Thanks.
+David Kirkpatrick your welcome anytime
Wonderful and beautiful and artistic and elegant
Nice work pal , I have one of those chain morticers,I’m thinking of selling it as times are tough , I’m after changing my mind now after seeing this
That was the quietest sill saw I’ve ever heard
I have a feeling that this has to be a much stronger way of building than how most houses are built today...some pine 2x4s and a few nails here and there.
+AJohnson0325 some buildings using this type of construction have stood testament to hundreds of years use and appear they will be around for hundreds more. Thanks for watching
My house is 215 years old and still standing straight and all the joints are make like we saw in the video. The rafters in the attic are joined at the top with pegs and are numbered using Roman Numerals - easier to do as there are no curves in roman numerals.
When I cut tenons with the saw to waste method like that I run two or three cuts right next to each other at the shoulder, then the bit the handplane misses at its edge doesn't need planing down.
This is so satisfactory to watch
Please show us how you made that drill jig!
Plz tell what is the length and breadth of this wood height I will be manage
Impressed with ur home made drill press, can it be made using regular drill?.if so pls make video on that. Thks
th-cam.com/video/myBBAbA4q_0/w-d-xo.html
plain beautiful. nice video. can u make a video showing your drill jig at 3:25. it looks awesome. how does it go up?
I've been meaning to for ages, many requests already. Its on the list. Thanks for watching.
Very good!! Bealtiful work
Forgive my ignorance but whats that saw you used to cut out that rectangle in the post you brought down off the table ?
I think you are referring to the chain mortiser, think chainsaw crossed with a plunge router.
awesome thanks dude great work !!!
How would you go about doing the mortis without the chainsaw?
+BowHunter77 using a drill guide (like my portable drill press - search for video), drill out the majority of the material then set to with mallet and chisel. Lots of hard work, but fun and lots of learning in the process.
thank you Francis , great fun , I grew up in PA lots of chestnut barns !
+Ian Carpenter you're welcome
Qual é o nome da ferramenta usada pra fazer o furo ai? Nunca a ví.
Hi what fantastic workmanship you have, could this method be used for large gates, looks a solid joint.
Yes this is one of he strongest woodworking joints. If your joints are all in compression they are far stronger. Many thanks for your comment.
Francis Barnett thank you very much for your reply, I really do fancy giving this joint a go, it's so nice to see that craftsmen can still produce this quality of work with mostly hand tools (and a circular saw)
If your good with hand tools you can cut the whole joint by hand. Use a drill and chisels to cut the mortise and hand saws to cut the tennon.
usually wooden posts are from how much to how much?
Fuck yeah. This isn't the 17th century. Love it man.
+Magnus Bojaxhiu Your welcome anytime
what size timber is it and what size are the mortoise and tenon joints please .thx
+Colin Anderson 8" x 8" oak, tenon one third of total width.
thank u for the measurements---really important
Very nice over view of this joinery.
Your more than welcome here anytime. Many thanks.
Great video , straight to the point ,
Many thanks.
1:37 plz can you tell me this machine name?
Good work! You need to put a mention of your website in the credits
Thanks for the comment Ali.
Great job Francis! Can the joins swell and crack the wood?
Francis, you're the man. Love the drill press ;) Got a vid on how to make that one??
I'm planing a series on timber framing tools, first one will be the portable drill press. Thanks for watching.
I was looking for a video with the use of large wood. Making a table out of Jarrah sleepers. Great vid. Thank for sharing!!
+Carl Evans thanks for watching.
Love the home made drill guide 💯
I really love doing post and beam joints , there are so many and when you finish the, you can admire them , like wow I’m awesome , good job I wish I could find a video of old houses being built , so far only found one and the volume is down . The others don’t really get into too much detail
The wood is so beautifull, that we can mind that it's a plastic wood. You rock man !
+Stéphane Lamarre merci boucoup
@@francisbarnett De rien, mon fils.
Do you have any more pics of the modified drill press you used to drill out the draw bore holes?
+Andy Brumleve when I eventually get round to it I plan on doing a video on timber framing tools, including this home made portable drill press. Thanks for watching.
HUGE mortiser how many horse is that thing?
Richard Cowtails Its not really that big power wise, its all about the control and parallel plunge into the work piece, think of chainsaw cross with router.
Francis Barnett Hi and compliments for you great work i want to know what tools you use brand /model/power if is not a secret .Thanks a lot keep doing nice vids ;)
Is there a particular reason to drilling the holes in the separate pieces rather than drilling through both while they are joined?
The holes need to be offset so that when you peg them the mortise and tenon are pulled together.
What is that tool you used to press down and make a square hole?
+Richard Singh chain mortiser
This clinches it.
Building a chicken coop this week and have been planing on some framing metal and dowel joints but nope - definitely M&T on it now. Gives me an excuse to use my new chisels anyway.
Great, No commentary, perfect for us beginners. Worthless
May I know the brand of the mortiser s. Thx.
Excellent work!
Donde puedo comprar
I love how M&T joints have some flexibility to them making the entire structure stronger.
100's of years it was used and nothing is strong or last longer. Made a few of my storms windows with m&t joints!
Lots of medieval cottages have used them instead of nails.
NextLevel Gamez 🔥
How are the checks not a problem? The larger one than ran along the tenon seems like it would cause a failure.
What was that machine he used to make that huge cut
+tpfmike1976 look for my video chain mortiser, thanks for watching.
I'm more of a no-machine guy, but your results are good man, nice.
My current hobby is woodcarving rather than the timber frame day job stuff, i understand the no power tools approach, its very rewarding and even more of a workout. Thanks for watching.
I actually grow my trees so that they have the shape and the holes already in them. No tools at all, so...
you got any pics ?
Sadly one couldn't make any money if timber was all split by hand for a Frame, side axed and whatever -it would take so much longer and be un-competitive.
Using mechanical saws/chain morticers is just as skilled as using hand tools- your marking out still has to be spot on.
It is likely that the original timber framers from yonks ago would have ''worn out'' much quicker, simply because of the arduous physical strength needed..arthritis is often found on old excavated skeletons of men in their 40's.
Show them a skillsaw or a chain morticer, and they'd have been on it like anything :)
Would have made their lives easier for sure.
leloodallasmultipass - Heheheh good one ! And the fifth element. Nice. I should be smokerichtydemon lol
It looks brilliant
Anybody know what tool that was that he cut the mortise with?
I like your DIY drill bench press stand
Great demonstration Francis thank you for making it available. I was intrigued by your hand drill jig, is that something you fabricated yourself? Could you share your process perhaps.
brad Smith
brad Smith
brad Smith 👀
Dear Sir
What is the the brandnamen of the sword blade machine you use to hollow the beam?
Best Regards
William
Belgium
Chain mortiser! 👍🏼
Hi Francis what make is the smaller circular saw plaese
+Mike Mills I mostly just use Makita saws, I think the small one you refer to is a hypoid saw from the USA, sadly not available elsewhere. Thanks for watching.
Ensina esse gabarito aí da furadeira! Ficou legal 👏🇧🇷
Hy, I like your work. I'm a trainee carpentry student. any chance you could make a video on how you made your drill jig which works same as drill press? UK fan
th-cam.com/video/myBBAbA4q_0/w-d-xo.html
Enjoy
Thanks
Francis Barnett x
Makes me want to use bigger timber for rafter beam support ( no idea if terminology is correct ).Oh, I'm so nervous with twisted 18' x 3" x 9" timber.
necesito saber como puedo comprar esta maquina
la sierra con pedestal
I love it awesome work
I so want to learn this. great job!!!
Thanks for watching
I want to do this for my bed frame, but I'm terrified of plunging too much of the circular saw blade...I know you say "don't copy me", but just wondering if there is a trick to preventing kickback when going so deep with the saw...especially in douglas fir.
Slap Stick if you are new to wood working try running your saw through scrap timber first. make a series of cuts getting deeper as you go along a line, you will then get the feel of the saw. Always be ready for a saw to 'kick' or bind in a cut, be ready to hold the saw and release the trigger, never stand directly behind the saw. Practise.
Francis Barnett Yes, I've been wood working for a while, but generally staying away from deep cuts with circulars, since thats how it was taught to me. I've bound up before, and its heart stopping even when off to the side. Its a good idea to practice first. I think I'll do it in stages. Two inch depth, chisel, then repeat. Do you believe those special blades for pressure treated lumber are any better? Thanks!!
How do you make your pegs?
where did you buy your chain mortise? what brand is it?
I bought this one from ebay, its Ryobi, I don't think there made anymore. Makita make a similar, and Myfel make a cross grain one. Thanks for watching.
thanks for responding
what is the machine name and where to buy at 1:20? tq
It's both a chain mortiser or chisel mortiser depending on wether you use a chain or chisel, in his case it's a chain mortiser because it's like a small thick chainsaw (I think you can swap them out on the same machine)
Breathtaking
what 1.30 are you using? how much I could get it? that's awesome! !!!
Chain morticer
Beau travail.
What is the wood type
anyone know how to make the hole without a mortiser saw?
Careful marking out the drill out the majority of the material, then finish with a chisel. Thanks for watching.
+Francis Barnett
thank you sir for making the video and for taking the time to response.
That chainsaw mortise jig thing! So much awesome.
Not a chance, I would drill the peg holes through both sides of the wood on either side of the mortice. I also would mark the holes through the tenon inboard by 1/16 - 3/32" so when the pegs are driven through they put the tenon under tension because of the purposeful misalignment and pull the joinery tight
I have always wondered about the mechanical strength of this type of joint. You basically reduce the effective 'strength' to one third (more or less) of the total beam. So why leave the rest of the wood on the beam (use a thinner beam)? I also have seen similar joints that sink the entire beam into the upright (sorry I don't know the names) so it is fully supported and only use the pegs to stop it from sliding out. But then the upright can get flimsy...
This joint is near always used in compression (as all good timber framing is). The load is passed through the post and beams shoulders of the tenon not the end of the tenon. The pegs are used to pull the joint tightly together (draw bore). Hope this response helps. Thanks for watching.
What type of wood did you use? It is beautiful
what is the tool at 1:30 called?
Chain morticer
Francis Barnett thanks
Missy Rabbit it's called "Plastic Milk crates ", they each hold 4 gallons of milk. Does that answer your question? Or are you talking about the " Plunge Tenon " cutting machine?
You know, I hate to bash the home team, but here in the U.S. of A. our doors really are rubish. I am planning on making some interior doors that look very U.k. cottage, like ledged doors, with those old-timey Suffolk style hinge. Any thoughts on interior doors?
Apa nama alat buat lobangi persegi itu kak..
That, was, awesome. Nice drill press :)
+Daniel Streeter I have a video if you look through - portable drill press. Thanks for watching
hermoso felicitaciones (beatifull , congratulation) from Santiago De Chile .
Many thanks
thx .u make it look easy .im sure its not ! good to keep the old skills alive