Great video. Here is my amperage calculation. You must devide 360A with 3 phases and probably also devide by two because of two wires. So each wire is loaded with max 60A.
@@TheDigitalMermaid - We all have times where we can't the forest with all that trees You could use a gear system so you can switch between the big motor and a 5 kw motor. OK you need a second controller for it.
@@TheDigitalMermaid I was referring to the 3 phase power current requirements per lead but thanks for the reply. I just became a Patreon. You are much like me, I like to do all discrete design elements by myself, but sometimes I get stuck and say, you know what, that complicated relay protection assembly for illusory back emf protetection I have been trying to prototype for 3 weeks is better served by a $6 dollar board with a box of spares.
I very much enjoy these theory-craft style of videos, even though I assume the greater public may not. Thanks for all the detail, as always. What I can offer in contribution later on: Like you, I have an an IT/coding background (C++ specifically). So once the code for the throttle-management-arduino is written, I can do a code review. Having more eyes on critical code/infrastructure like that surely won't hurt. I had forgotten to join the patreon discord, but fixed that now. So if/when you want eyes on something C++, just let me know.
See, this is why I love open source! I didn't mention it in the video, but one of the things I'm hoping to do longer term is to have a small community of folks working on / helping with an open platform for boating. One of the reasons I decided to go inboard was that I couldn't find a pod system (or really even inboard systems) that were truly hackable. If I can make this work, my dream is that it might kinda become a seed for an open marine platform (and who knows what else). So yes, code review would be more than appreciated! I'll setup a github repo when I finally get started.
@@TheDigitalMermaid yeah well... if you really want to promote open-source, you may have to take a look at the vesc before using this kelly thing ^^ you would have everything you want and a basis for real open source, non proprietary protocol...etc (as well as less headache.. because kelly... you know.. hum :) )
Heh, well what's the old saying; "Don't let perfection be the enemy of 'good enough'.". I love open source, but I'm not a zealot also. For this project, it's striking a balance between hackable / repairable and time to get back on the water. Who knows though, down the road a controller swap might entirely be on the table.
This approach with the different motors is very interesting! Looking forward to see how it comes in reality and what kind of performance you can get it with that and of course the regen. For my new boat, I’m planning to do double saildrive system with two 10 kW motors. But this video made me think that should I do something similar for them to get more efficiency and maybe more regen efficiency. One thing I have also been thinking used to really optimise everything from the propeller up especially for the regen! Propeller for that looks very different from propulsion one, but it should work for propulsion as well if needed. Keep it up!👍🏼
Thanks for watching! How long until you install your motors? If your channel is more or less up to date, I'm guessing not for the '24 season? If that's the case, I should hopefully have field-tests / real results before you buy. :)
After posting, I went back and watched some of your older videos. Really ambitious project! I'm very keen to see how you make progress with it. If you have a few years ahead of you still, well perhaps I'll be visiting Finland before you install your motors. :D
We run parallel motors on our machines at work all the time we set them up to speed following but limit the torque to 80% (that can be tuned up or down to suit each application) on the slave. That way the slave has the correct speed reference to match the master motor rpm but it just go’s in to torque limit and sits there helping master along.
OK, so, I think I kinda understand what you're saying, but not completely. Can you recommend any articles or papers that explain this in more technical detail? I'd love to learn more about this.
@@TheDigitalMermaid we use AC motors and drives but principal is the same here is a Siemens white paper on parallel drives and motors for rolling industry but dont worry about what its driving. cache.industry.siemens.com/dl/files/055/14390055/att_870428/v2/FAQ-CD7F6930_MM4-multi_motor_en.pdf
@@TheDigitalMermaid this one you will have to translate but prinipals are the same with mater slave configuration giving slave torque limit. th-cam.com/video/_mtBwfcru-Y/w-d-xo.html
I'm excited about this new phase! Please reach out if there is anything I can help with - or if you get to a point where you want to air it out on a podcast! Keep it up!
Will do! As I mentioned in the video, and maybe even on the podcast; My long term goal is to help build an open source, hackable marine platform. So sharing all the code and designs is part of that, specifically because I know folks will improve it far better than I could ever do alone.
Love it! Don't hesitate with any questions about the SoftPot rotary membrane potentiometer. We like to assist with clarifications & support when we are able. :)
Well hello there, I have to say I wasn't expecting you fine folks to pop in! The next video, you're going to see your Softpot in the absolutely most questionable throttle setup ever. Haha! I'd LOVE to see a 180 degree version, as I'm leaving a lot of fidelity on the table using the 353 degree one. ^_^
100Kwh at 48V! Mother of God!!! Please blow another T Class! Million views waiting to happen! 🤣Seriously though, great job on the efficiency curves and 5Kw and 10Kw multimotor scheme. Guessing the entire surface will be wallpapered in flexible thin sheet solar cells.
Hahaha! I am sure I'll screw up drastically, it's my habit, but I'm not gonna bring it on sooner. I darn neat shat my pantaloons last time! My goal is to get 1200~1500w of solar, but even that is admittedly "optimistic" on a canoe-stern sailboat like mine... Prop regen is what I'm really banking on.
Wow, this phase is going to be fun. I sure liked the boaty parts, but now that I know you're going to do this the hard way (and why wouldn't you?), the technical parts will be quite interesting!
Why not have the motor not in use free spin the controller can do that and there is minimum loss once its at speed and in an emergency you could have 15 kw of power
So, I've had a few comments suggest this now, and originally I thought it would be a waste of power / loss in efficiency, but it seems like there might be a way to free-spin the motor with minimal losses.... So this will be something I look more into as the project moves on. If I could leave both connected all the time, that would be brilliant.
I've seen ironwood, it's brilliant! I really want teak, if I can swallow the cost, as I'd love for it to match the existing teak toe rails on the boat.
Very interesting but I am an engineer so you know how that goes. Just wondering thatt you did not mentiion and data regarding Propeller performance data; you should get from the prop mfr curves of thrust vs RPM and efficiency. This will also lead you to think about about the match between your most efficient motor speeds and how well they math with the prop. Electronic devices are available that you can bolt in-line between the prop shaft and the motor or engine that will give a real time readout of torque and very expensive but perhaps the prop manufacturer has done some testing using such a device. FYI, they work on the principle of the amount off shaft twist as measured by a strain gauge. Does the boat have clearance for a larger prop? Merry Christmas
I mentioned that I'll be going into more detail on the propeller in a future video, as it's a huge topic. I linked in the description the propeller I am planning on, and I sent my measurements and other details, and they sent back a recommended size and optimal RPM. Using that will be what sets my pulley ratio (~3:1 ~4:1). The boat does have generous clearance, and that's why the recommended the 430mm (~17"), compared to the current ~13" prop I have on her now. I really want to have a way of measuring the real world output power, to calculate/display in real time the effective efficiency of the motor versus the input power. I'd LOVE to be able to "dial in" peak efficiency", also factoring in the boat's speed in water.
hi Maddy, had a small brian wave hit my skull. I this and an other video you talked about water cooling eletronic parts. Would it be an advantage to keep the cooling inside the hull, use the heat too warm up the cabin or watertanks, and all so have one less hole in the hull. And frome what i knowh, unless you are boating in the tropics, ships/boats get a ton of cooling from wind and water in contact with the hull, so maybe at bit of ekstra warmth might be nice.And you would get it from power you anyhow had to use too move the boat. Maybe it is at total no go brian wave, but now it has been shared , and you are free to use it or leav it to die . No hard fellings. :-)
So, I didn't talk about it in this video, but that is actually the plan now. I don't want to use sea water cooling anymore, too much of a hassle. So the current plan, and it's very vague as I can't yet know how much real cooling I'll need until I do sea trials, is to setup a couple air-sourced radiators, vented using the old engine bay vents that exhaust behind the helm. If that works, redirecting the flow to pull air in and exhaust the warmed air into the cabin in cold climates should be viable.
(So I think you thought of this already, but I’ll leave the comment anyway. :) I have no experience doing what you are doing, but some questions come to mind. Maybe running a 5kw and a 10kw motor will let you pick the most efficient one for the speed you want. Also, I suspect that the regen efficiency curves are similar to the output efficiency curves so you may get better regen efficiency at low speed from the 5kw motor. Anyway, I appreciate your explanations and thought process. Good job!
The regen efficiency tracking the output efficiency is very much what I hope turns out to be true... If so, this should help scavenge power even at relatively lower speeds!
In the UK my boat is classed as a sailing vessel with auxiliary engine. I haven't asked the insurance broker but the type of engine (petrol/diesel/inboard/outboard/pedals) is unspecified. So if I changed mine, I wouldn't be informing anyone. I suspect you've been told something by someone who knows nothing, but is taking the safe line. (There are better descriptions for people like this.)
I run my own business, and have for over 20 years. It's made me very cautious about keeping everything above board, and in this case, I wanted them to know so that I wouldn't face a rejected claim if something happened. I know many projects just swap the motor and don't say anything, and I get it, but I'm too paranoid for that.
Maddy I can't help but wonder when considering wasted energy, about the large inefficiency's of belt drives over a direct drive coupling, along with less need for, and stress on carrier bearings that will also require regular servicing etc. If using a second motor I'm sure they can be bought with double ended shafts so that two motors can be mounted direct coupled inline. Maddy you may have already considered all this, and I am certainly no authority on this, I'm just throwing it out there. The prop will be and interesting subject as well, I'm assuming that the propeller pitch for drive/propulsion will be vastly different than the pitch required for regen? Always love your videos and watching you figure things out.
Direct coupling would certainly be ideal, but it's just not feasible on my boat. The old engine uses a v-drive transmission, which you can see in the clip where I'm on the boat talking about the battery placement. So the best I can do is try to get the most efficient belt setup I can.
Get the sweater fixed ..and elbows patched. I have a couple of Arrans all round the British isles fishermens wives and fishermen would sit knitting local styles of jumper and each familly and community had its own patterns. The wool would be oiled with lanolin oil to keep water at bay and generate added warmth. It works . The knit needs to be tight to keep wind and water out and warmth in. The one historic downer, is one of the reasons for the unique patterns, if a fisherman went overboard and the body was found it would allow them to haul it out of the water and identify it. Another fact is a common name for a jumper in the UK is a Jersey... Jersey and Gurnsey are channel islands and known for their own styles of fishermens jumpers... In Scotland and the NE jumpers are called Gansey's .
I almost forgot look up a bunch of Canadian logging truck guys and their Electric Hybrid the Edison Topsey .. more power more torque less wt and when using the generator its up to 50% more fuel efficient and cleaner burning...less maintainance and back up.
I had heard the story about the sweaters being unique to help ID bodies, really drives home the risk fisherfolk used to face. I absolutley love good sweaters, and I want to keep them for a long time. My neighbour already fixed the orange sweater once, so I'll be asking her if she can help me again. :)
@@TheDigitalMermaid Spent my younger days studying down in the West country near to where Daz cats and Wharrams are from ..when we were not on the coast we would be doing field work on the Moors. Oiled wool sweaters Were standard kit. The Royal Navy were incredibly disgruntled when they were told they would have to give up their traditional white oiled wool roll neck sweaters.... They kept wearing them i dont think anyone dared rock that particular boat. 😂🧙♂️
@@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665 I've not learned much about oiling sweaters, but I very much expect to learn all about it. I love 'em, and expect to be wearing decent ones for many many years out of the water. :)
I've got longer-term plans to take an 8~12hp single cylinder air cooled diesel and mate it to a 48v native alternator, like the Balmar 60 or 100 (which speaks LFP). Basically, get the smallest possible bang bang box to turn diesel into kw as efficiently as possible, and then do everything in my power to never use it.
Wind in the sails, prop in the water regen, yup. It's how I plan to get most of my power... Less than solar at full sun, but it'll work day and night, so long as the sails are up and there's enough wind. I will lose speed in water, but this setup allows me to lock the prop shaft and the prop will feather if I really want the speed more than the power.
Learn to live your Yanmar@@TheDigitalMermaid- that way you always have someone else to blame! N.B. It is a little known fact that both tides and Ocean currents are caused by untapped oil and gas sloshing around in the Earth's crust and we, as sailors, are duty bound to do our bit to rescue the planet by burning every last drop of Dinosaur Juice before the planet spins out of control. There's no point arguing with The Science, Madi!
Why not just electrically disengage the motor you don’t intend to use? Then you can have both motors belted at all times and just free spin the motor you’re not using. You’ll be able to switch instantly when needed.
@@TheDigitalMermaid that is because there is something hooked up in side that is cause them to act like breaks. If you wire the coils together they will do that . unhooked there shouldn't be anything like that. Random - This happens with speaker cones - take a cone and tap it -- it sounds hollow and resonates. then hook a wire form + to - tap and again, and it is not resonant, its "tight".
@@TheDigitalMermaid I uploaded the image of your motors wiring diagram to ChatGPT and it suggested that to free spin the motor you have to first cut power to it, and second disconnect the load. To do that, here's what it said. Control Signal Management: BLDC motors are typically controlled by electronic controllers that manage the timing and power delivered to the motor's coils. If you have a controller like the one depicted in the image, you can disengage the motor by disabling the control signals. This could be done through a switch, a relay, or a software command, depending on your controller's capabilities. I'm couldn't say if this is accurate, or if your controller can do this, but it seems worth a poke around.
The problem is that women have been taught for generations that tech isn't for us. One of my biggest hopes with this channel it to help show others, particularly younger women, that this can very much be for them, if they find it fun. The idea of hobbies and jobs being gendered is a tragedy, in my mind.
@TheDigitalMermaid - 7 * 280A = 1960 A * 48V = Jesus what a power. Nearly 100 KW - I was 3 minutes faster abut the 100 KW you mentioned. haha. - if you visit my country you need 230V ;-) - Have you thought to install a small 2KW diesel generator? - Arduino Help. I can help with an esp32 too. With that you could have a web page via WiFi Ap on that esp32 to setup and control the motor/controller. - I wish i would live bear your place, then i could teach all what you need to know on solar and Arduino/esp32 coding.
LFP 16s packs have a nominal voltage of 51.2v, x 280Ah x 7 is 100.3kwh. I'm planning to have two Multiplus-II 5000VA inverter/chargers, a 120v and a 230v version. So when I switch to a different power region, I can move the shore power connection to the appropriate Multiplus. I do plan to add a diesel generator eventually, but even when I do, I will do everything in my power to never use it. The arduino is to start. I actually talked to my friend Andrew last night for a couple of hours about porting the arduino test setup to an esp32 or smt32 when I'm ready to switch to a proper circuit board.
Hi Maddy, thanks for sharing your thoughts, I've got a couple of questions, maybe a heads-up. I saw a resistive with ball bearing setup for your input throttle: please be aware that you are in a saline environment, it will oxidate faster than you think, essentially killing your possibility to drive the engine, try to find either a capacative or optical way of doing this as it would last a lot longer and is sturdier (alike the resistive vs capacitive plant sensors), this is just my fear when running such parts. Also you conversed HP to KW. The Diesel KW is maybe 40% effective, so a large 100KW motor hasn't got 40KW of output, so maybe your peak isn't that import but more the turning speed of the propellor, the diesel engine running at a certain RPM drives the shaft at a certain RPM, that might be important as a electric engine might run different speed and that conversion is important for the "driveability" of the propellor. And finally, when you want to regenerate from a propellor, it's shape will be important, because they might be having different "drags" in water, so a high power conversion propellor might slow down your boat when it is still. So maybe think of two propellors or generators on the side of the boat which are facing forward to charge the batteries. (But the last one might be a little lame when running on engine power). Probably you might need a conversionbox for the speed of the propellor shaft vs the speed of the electric engine. Just my thoughts, I'm no mechanical engineer, but let them please advice you on how to make this marine grade ready.
You're already the second comment to warn about the pot corroding, so I will certainly pay attention to that. I'll have spares, of course, but I might see about conformally coating all metal bits for extra protection. There will be an e-stop button at the helm (ABYC requires this), so in a pickle, that'll be the safety. The prop size and speed is hugely influential in efficiency, as I understand it, and it's partly why I'm investing so much in the prop I've chosen. This prop also flips over 180 degrees, so it has optimal pitch in forward, and in reverse/regen.
@@TheDigitalMermaid The good part is speaking freely on your planning, this will give you people reacting on your choices, either positive or negative and gives you to think about options. One of the parts of marine stuff it's mostly very expensive but for the reasons of running into storms and water goes everywhere then and salty water is evil 🤔. So I'm glad you look into the reactions and make your planning better. Just also to give you a heads-up, I think you follow Andy's channel, but he made a breakthrough with JK, the new BMSes might help your Victron setup to work better. And looking at what you plan to do, maybe try to have two seperate setups in your vessel, 3 banks primary power, 3 banks switchover power and 1 bank as general or backup power. This will give you options when you hit the ground running. With 2 MP's and 2 different solar inputs this might save you from harm (you can think of joining things or switching things). Just my thoughts not to critique you. Have fun planning and getting things to work, love to follow the proces.
@@edwardvanhazendonk A huge reason I wanted to start this channel is for the feedback. Taking in advice and experience from others is so important to giving this project the best chance of succeeding. I'm a few episodes behind on Andy's channel, but I am hoping to get caught back up asap. I know there's been a lot of JK developments. On the solar, the goal will be to have at least two MPPTs, one for port and one for stbd. Everything important will be redundant, for sure.
I really like the idea of having two different Multiplus II's for worldwide power compatibility. I would drop a question in the Victron community forum to see if anyone has done that to hopefully avoid any gotchas.
If you've got a CAN bus on the controller, why not have your Arduino use that to drive the controller? That will probably be easier than dealing with analog signals in the presence of all the switching noise. Also, you showed the potentiometer you're planning to use as a throttle input. Cars often have multiple separate potentiometers for redundancy. You might want to look into modifying a car throttle pedal since they've already done the hard engineering.
Great video. I'm doing a similar thing with a power catamaran. I'm planning approx 45kwh per hull and 15kW electric outboards by an Austrian company called Aquamot, their Trend 15,0 motors. I will have a 6kW solar canopy and hopefully a weight of between 4 and 5 metric tonnes. The displacement should only be about 0.5m. Like you, all this is theoretical. Good luck with the insurance company.
Having two completely separate motors/props, and so much solar area is the only thing that makes me consider cats. I envy your capacity in this way. :D Please keep me posted on your project as you work on it, I love hearing about other's projects. :)
Aye, that's my fall-back, a couple leather elbow patches. My neighbour (who I am hiring to redo the cushions) is a wiz at this stuff, so I'm going to ask her to take a look at the sweater, also.
Hrm, you're the second person to ask this, and the honest answer is "I didn't really think about it". I kind of defaulted to an analogue input, given the near infinite values I can get from it. When I next talk to Andrew, I'll ask him about a digital encoder option.
@@TheDigitalMermaid Theoretically you can have infinite numbers, but your ADC is the limit here. A 10 bit ADC will give you 1024 values - you can easily get the equivalent digital encoder for this many positions.
We actually designed a simple wireless controller for my electric boat. It comes around to 3 buttons. First one used to put throttle higher, middle one is to stop and third one is to go reverse. If forward or reverse is pushed down, it will give a full throttle burst. We did initial testing this fall, hoping to get that system installed next summer for actual testing. Quite easy to do with ready to go Bluetooth microcontroller dodads. So far I’ve been using simple potentiometer, but probably gonna ditch that and do this button system for the fixed install as well.
@@ArcticSeaCamel I hinted about computer control of the boat, and for that, I was imagining from a tablet or phone, so wireless effectively. That said, I want to always have a hard-wired set of controls at the help that overrides any other signals. I'm old enough to never trust tech that much, particularly wireless tech. :)
Suggest that you consider differential sizing of the motors. This still provides redundancy that you want but allows higher efficiency at “part throttle” as well as potentially greater regen. Having some type of clutch instead of a belt would also increase efficiency, but the ability to vary the drive ratio may give better end to end efficiency.
@@TheDigitalMermaid What type of belt? Toothed belt may have less losses but vee or poly vee allow some slip to protect against over torque damage if prop stalls.
Just thinking. If your going to use the prop for regen, then a folding prop would not work! ABYC is American Boat & Yacht Council. ABYC Is a group of people who are working in the boating industries. Boat designers, boat bluiders, marine insurance, marine survey, marine lawforment (USCG, CCG, Local marine police), marine repair people, boaters and engineers ( mechanical, electrical, ect).
The Ecostar Autoprod is a feathering prop, not a folding one. I've got an ABYC membership, and downloaded/read all of the relevant standards, I just can't seem to get their full name to stick in my brain... lol. It's not like it's complicated, my brain just goes "Nope! ABYC is ABYC, it has no real words".
Although you're going Arduino, you might want to use a Pi Pico as the hardware instead of an ST or Atmel based board. The Pico has hardware programmable IO (PIO) which can run tasks without the main code itself interfering. Which gives you the benefit of if your code crashes the outputs will be sustained until the code gets reset (e.g. watchdog). So I'd think that might be an option for improving safety.
Hrm, your point is valid, but I can't shake the worry of effectively running a full OS behind the helm controls. Let me ponder it more, it's possible I'll find the arduino too limiting in the end anyway...
Hey, the new Tesla Cyber truck went to 48v power for lights and cabin electronics etc. Musk said they largely did it to save weight, because they could use a smaller gauge wire, like you were saying. Smort. BTW, can you please stop inspiring me to electrify my 1975 Honda motorcycle, please? It would cost a fortune! Maybe stop getting so excited about the unknown in your videos? Less positive energy, would also help me stay uninspired😂😂😂. This first video in ‘phase 3’ was great! Be well, and happy holidays.
12v is soooo last century. I didn't talk about it in this video, but I'm going to be doing all I can to get my boat entirely 48v. For now, some devices need to be 12v, but I'll replace them as soon as I can. Also, no, I will not stop encouraging personal project. Go! Do the thing! Happy holidays!
LFP is a nominal 3.2v/cell, so 16s is 51.2v. The controller is what you're talking about, I assume? In any case, the motor itself has a max draw of 13,282.43 watts input, for 10,535.04 watts output.
Sizing the cables to handle 400+A is going to pose topology challenges and further increase the weight distribution problem. I will try to run up some hydro dynamic calculations for the Landfall 38 and have a stab at estimating the likely stability and upwind sailing performance hit if all 7 battery banks are located aft of the mast. This will inevitably involve some simplifying assumptions, but will hopefully throw up some "Do Not Exceed" parameters I am surprised that the insurers would take issue with you simply removing the Yanmat "whilst keeping an open mind about what to replace it with". (How else could anyone ever replace an engine or even lift one out for repair?). I take it gejr major concern in fire or explosion, in which case the preventative measures required may also have a direct impact on weight and architecture. In closing, I see the biggest challenge you face is that 2025 is a long way away and all of this electric nononsense is going to cost you another 12 months adventure downtime. Repent your faith, hoist the sails, learn to love your Yanmar and get out on the water sooner rather than later. You know it makes sense! Let's face it - the Dinosaurs were a pretty mean bunch and probably had it coming to them : I'm thinking of copyrighting the phrase "Karmic Combustion" by the way...
To be clear, I won't be using 400A, I talked about it exactly because I wanted to show how hard it was to deal with such high currents. The very most I can pull will be 260A with the 10kw at full power, and the cables I've got feeding the controller will handle that OK. If you can do load calcs on my hull, holy crap that would be amazing! Feel free to send me an email (click on the About tab to get my email). I'd be very happy to provide any additional details I can to help make the calcs more realistic. I wish I had the lofting plans I could send ya! I heard back yesterday from another insurance provider who said they think they can get me coverage _after_ the conversion is done. So I asked them when would the insurance stop, given folks pull their engines out for service all the time. That is to say, what would define the uninsured time? I'm waiting for a reply, but it's the first positive progress on this front so far. "Repent your faith" - hahaha! As an ex-Catholic, that was an amusing choice of words. ^_^ - Nah, I'd give up sailing before I'd accept a diesel, and I'm not going to give up sailing. ;) Joking aside, the whole genesis of the project was the realization on my first sail on a friends boat that it wasn't boats I disliked, it was the noisy engine I disliked. So literally since day 1, back in the summer of '19, the plan was to go electric.
Theres a young English guy mark from Wilding Sailing hes in Holland trying to complete a 42ft wharram pahi Catermeran .. Now originally the design would have used a single larger outboard or two high torque 9hps. I keep trying to pursuade him to do his own electric hybrid conversion. Using motors like yours ...it would simplify his propulsion needs considerably plus the Dutch along with many others are looking at banning diesel propusion from all inland waters conservation areas and some harbours. Theres a UK company Advaced electrical Machines producing modular motors that use no perminant rare earth magnets or copper .. that might interest you theres also a German Co called Molabo who produced a low voltage version with magnetic field gearing but they are prohibitively expensive. Battrey prices are dropping currently and Northvolt has produced a Na ion cell with the capacity of per kg equivalent close to Li phosphate.
I watch him, actually! I quite like his down-to-earth style. The thing with electric is that I would _never_ push someone towards it, because the way you think about powered propulsion really does change. I really came to understand this when I switched to an EV for my car; There are amazing pros, but also real cons. I think going electric is something someone has to want to do, in order for them to be happy with the new trade-offs. I just looked at AEM's website, and they seem pretty light on technical specs... Ya, battery prices are coming down a lot. It's awesome, will make all this accessible to more and more people!
If you take out the diesel engine, an insurance still has to accept this. As any boat who get its engine pulled for service or rebuild. So no problem for the planning there and you can sell your engine. Even better, since an engine is a rather big part of the total value, you might, for the period the engine is out, insure it for a lower value. Which safe some money too. As a ultra lightweight hiker, obsessively (which actually fun to do:)) strips his gear of any non functional weight, yes even cutting toothbrush, removing labels, he reduces it's pack weight from 20kg to 7 for a 5 day trip icl tent sleeping bag cookset etc. I am sure, that with a bit of that lightweight hiker mindset i can strip with no compromise to functionality with ease 250 kg of your boat. So instead of only thinking of what to add...= lot more weight=more displacement=more Kw to move=more to charge, think first what you can strip more than the engine alone. I see glass doors, lots, useless wood trims, do you really need a wooden 15kg door on the toilet? or will a curtain or foamcore panel do? etc etc. Race sailing boat use the same principle.
Insurance has been a huge, huge headache. Thankfully, my broker is going way above and beyond trying to find me coverage. At this time though, my current provider said they'll stop covering me once the conversion starts. Still no luck yet finding a company who will cover me. =/ On displacement, you are right, but there's a place where weight helps, and that's stability in a storm. Going too light can actually be a problem, best is to aim to be as close as possible to the designed displacement. Now, racers on the other hand... Those folks are mad bastards, haha
Regrading regen. I would advise you be a bit pessimistic on how much you are going to get from it. I am still saying you SHOULD do it, it is worth it, just don't over estimate how much you will get from it. Ever time I have ever heard numbers quoted - it has been at travel speeds higher then you would expect and also with props bigger then you expect - I suspect that it is mostly releated ot area of the "prop circle" and that how pi*r^square for the area thing means even a bit bigger prop catches WAY more water.
Oh, I fully expect to be underwhelmed, but I am trying to be as effective/efficient as I can be. That said, one of the many reasons I bought the Landfall is her cruiser/racer lineage. She's shown me how easily she car get up over 6 knots in even modest winds. You're right, going from ~13" to ~17" prop is going to be a lot more drag, but then, if I need power, I'll trade speed for kw. :)
Electric canal boats here in the UK (Cruising the cut style) is around 2-3kw for cruising speed. but that's no tide or water flow, the absolute flat water. So those figures seem in the same ballpark.
Different hull shapes, too. Canal boats are flat bottomed and not the most efficient hydrodynamic shape. That said, I've loved seeing the episodes he's done on the electric canal boats. It's brilliant seeing more and more folks making the switch.
Hi Digital Mermaid, very informative video as usual, Thanks. the resistive throttle you showed may not be ideal for use near water and humid environments, look into a hall effect controller or similar.
You need programming MPPT controls for recuperative charging. So as i know this motor controller has only recuperative braking without control efficient point of recuperation.
This is something I still need to dig into, but I am pretty sure it has a selector for how aggressive the regen is. If so, one of the many benefits of the arduino is that I can program it to auto-adjust the regen aggressiveness based on the current speed in water.
I really enjoy your enthusiasm (and your orange sweater looked better 🙂 ). I'm currently also converting a sailboat to electric but using the small 3kW golden motor. The sailboat is also used for regatta's and the boat is a lot smaller than yours. However, I doubt that you can regenerate significant amount of power from your propeller. If you try to turn the motor shaft by hand you already feel how hard it goes and there is not enough "grip" between propeller and water. A gearbox/reduction would certainly help. Most of the time you will operate the engine in the lower efficiency ranges. The torque is needed when you accelerate but once the boat is moving at the speed you want, you can take the rpm's back to save energy (and not operate the engine at optimum efficiency).
I'm always open to suggestions of parts to remove. The helm controls being logic controlled is arguably not strictly needed, but it is for projects I have planned (the the helm controls will always override). Other than that, not sure what else could be simpler, but happy to hear suggestions.
I'm quite stoked for this project as well. Oddly enough I'm not interested in converting to electric at this time but I do find your project quite interesting. I can't wait to see progress and see the final numbers. Maybe you will convince me that this is the way to go when I get ready to buy a bigger boat and go cruising. Excellent lessons as always Madison, Cheers!
Please watch Kris harbour with his water wheel. He bought a similar motor with major issues with suppliers over rating the max output. That could be just 1500w in reality
Have you spoken to SV Uma, they have so much data and experience for the last 5 years with a boat similar size to yours, they are on their 3 rd version. Also just to note rivers and canals in Europe mostly don’t have shore power for leisure craft
I follow them, but I have not spoken to them. I assume they must get a constant stream of emails / requests, and my channel is still really really small compared to them. So I do hope one day to chat with them, but I think I'll wait until I've grown the channel and/or gotten further along in the project. I don't want to bug them (or anyone else, really). Are there marinas where I could pay to recharge along the rivers over there? Well, I do plan to have a diesel generator for emergencies, but oh I'll be doing everything I can to avoid using it...
@@TheDigitalMermaid not really accessible for sail boats, around Netherlands you have more chance especially along mast up routes, coastal marinas are set up as that’s what we all use. SV UMA had a lot of motor data a few years ago including regen data. The lack of shore power on inland rivers etc is what is stopping canal boats etc with would otherwise be ideal and this is unlikely to change as no river side or canal side infrastructure to do this. Also over here you need to de rate your solar by about 50% for daily average and late in year you will have basically none, we have 300 watts and have had basically nothing for the last 6 weeks
@@davidwright6950 Solar in the winters here is also basically useless. I know that my 1.5 meter keel is going to block me from some rivers/canals, and I suppose when that happens, I'll just have to find some boaty folks interested in taking on a nerdly visitor for a trip around the local canals. ^_^
@@TheDigitalMermaid you would not think it but 1.5m is an issue on most of the European inland nowadays, we planned to go down the French system to the med but we hearing that this is now not easily and we are lifting keel and draw 900mm with it up, the issue is that it’s mostly ok in the middle but you cannot get to the bank, UK canals can take quite some time to progress as locks really slow you down, you can easily get hire boats to have the experience though.
@@davidwright6950 Aye... I'm coming to realize how the keel will limit me. Well then, so it is. It will be an excuse to try to make new friends who can take me on their canal boats, perhaps in exchange for taking them on some open water sails. :)
Thank you for making these videos. I dont watch them as often as i should. Simply because my focus is more on building batteries for now. But these technical videos teach me quite a bit, things to consider in a design phase.
that's a beastly motor! if you can get the controllers to go open-circuit on the output then you'll probably find there's effectively no power lost in spinning the motor, so you could likely just have both motors permanently connected via belts and simply select which one is active through software. the other one will free-spin. without a load on it the only energy needed to spin the shaft is to get it up to speed and then overcome friction in the bearings. try it - short all six of those wires together and spin it by hand, that's the difference between open circuit and a controller that's actively trying to get energy out of the motor as regen going to be interesting to see what regen is like on a boat, it never occurred to me that you could do it. are boat propellers efficient "in reverse" like this? in cars it works well since you have a solid mechanical connection to the road surface and they're always intentionally trying to shed energy because of braking. i wonder how it would compare to a small wind turbine, wind->power rather than wind->sail->water->power? looking forward to seeing more :)
I've had a few comments now suggesting that, if I can set it to freespin, the drag will be nominal. It'll certainly be something I experiment with! The prop I've chosen has a neat setup where the blades "flip over" 180 degrees, so they have a pitch designed for optimum forward motion, so when you go astern, they flip over, giving you optimal pitch for reverse. This means they're also the optimal pitch when doing regen. It's a brilliant setup! The link to the prop is in the description, and the company has videos showing how it works. If you lock the prop shaft, the blades with feather to minimize drag.
Efficiency for regen might not be too great. I looked at using aircraft props as wind generators but the twist of the prop is optimised for thrust not power extraction. Might not be quite as critical with hydrodynamics but it is totally useless for aerodynamics. Unless you have a lot of deck space for panels I would only assume that panels will look after the ancillaries.
One of the reasons I chose the prop I did (link in the description if you want to see more technical details) is that their blades flip over 180 degrees. So they've been able to design them for optimal efficiency in one direction, unlike most other props. They don't care about efficiency in reverse because the blades just flip over. I'm really hoping that's going the help with the regen, but it's all theory until I get in the water.
You mention that the efficiency loses at lower speeds is just gone, while yes it's not being used to move the boat it doesn't just disappear. Think about where you can use the efficiency loses, read as HEAT, Hot Water!! Would it be more efficient to heat your hot water with the loses rather than an actual water heater?
So I didn't talk much about cooling in this video, but you'll notice both the motor and controller are liquid cooled. ;) The plan is to run each motor and controller to a dedicated radiator, with the heat ducted out the exhaust behind the captains seat. For colder whether, redirecting that into the cabin is absolutely something I'm planning to play with. :)
Many devices made for sea use are specially treated with sealed circuit boards , one splash of sea water will kill them. All of your lcd displays for your should be sealed completely against sea air. There are industrial computers and keyboards made for industrial environments . I have used them in my designs and they are great.
You are not considering drag in water and wind resistance if head on. Real conditions will be different from a pre-calculated solution. I think you need to install some stuff and go out and test it and then make changes.
Did I not mention a few times "flat calm" as a qualifier to these numbers? I spoke about wanting to have the 10kw, and possibly even paralleling with the 5kw for 15kw, specifically to overcome strong real world conditions, like headwinds and currents. I also talked about exactly needing to get on the water to start putting this theory to the test...
Check out the following idea: Have both 10kW and 5kW motors permanently coupled to the shaft. For high cruising speed the 10kW should be the driver and the 5kW spinning freely. The "penalty" here will be the friction losses of the 5kW motor transmission and those of the idle spinning motor,* i.e. electrically disconnected. For getting down to 5kW "eco" mode the 10kW motor will still be the driver, but now the 5kW has now assumed the role of a generator. Doing so, you will have the 10kW running at high efficiency while recuperating the extra power. The penalty here consists of the mechanical and electrical efficiencies from the shaft to the batteries (transmission + generator efficiency + conditioning for battery charging). It goes without saying that by adjusting the generator point you can have the 10kW running at its most efficient point. The "bonus" mode will be when the 5kW motor gets switched to driver too. (*) In my language (Greek) this would be called a "crazy" motor after the technical term of crazy pulley - τρελή τροχαλία. Nikos
Friction losses is why I originally didn't want to parallel them, though I'm starting to think, based on comments, these losses might be very small... If so, paralleling them all the time would be back on the table.
@@TheDigitalMermaid Dual motor EVs often let one motor spin idle when there's no need for the extra power and don't suffer much from the friction. I'd be more concerned about breaking a bolt or chewing up a thread if you need to swap belts around much. The less you touch the mechanics the longer they will last, and you're not going to want to be doing this in a storm (i.e. the longer YOU will last). Besides, with both motors in parallel, one can be driving the boat while the other is in regen, so you can charge the batteries at the same time... Oh, wait. :) Nice to know that the recent trip home could have been done with the post-conversion boat! And given the engine failures, with a lot less stress. Excellent video and explanation, as usual. Your channel is unique (and refreshing) in letting us peek inside your head on the decisions and what goes into them.
One concern about free-spinning the inactive motor is mechanical wear, also, if the drag is otherwise low enough to make it worth it... The trip home on electric is still theory for now, but I would LOVE to repeat the trip, possibly in reverse, just to prove it can be done, and silence many of the nay-sayers. ... or fail and be a great cautionary tale to arrogance. ;)
@@TheDigitalMermaid when they free-spinning the inactive motor that motor is usually not a permanent magnet motor as they don't like to be free-spinned but a AC motor that can do that without any problems. Dual motor EVs usually use different typ of motors front and back. Your Tesla is a good example of this setup.
A couple of notes. 1. The variable resistor is not ideal due to sea water, it wil get corrosion and possibly get wrong readings, maybe look into hall effect sensors (or a hybrid of both). 2. Please don't only trust in one arduino, please make a redundant system (or a separate monitor system that cuts power in case of an abnormally) (same as traffic lights...) (preferable a other controller than you are using as main controller, so maybe a esp32 or a RPI) 3. For control handels look into a 3D printer with wood filament, you can sand it, treat it just like wood 4. (i don't know if you where planning to do this) but i don't ever cut power to the controller due to starting issues, communication issues... you apparently can as seen in the kelly datasheet but make sure that the contactors A. are rated for the currant and B. MAKE absolute sure that they can handel the big inductive and capacitive load when engaging the contactor and charging the caps in the controller 5. Thank you for using a good old belt system in stead of clutches (there are losses in clutches) 6. Please don't put the LiFePo4 batteries on there sides (it is technicality fine but still) (if it is specifically mentioned in the datasheet you could do it) 7. I didn't understand how you are planning to control the 5kw motor (2 controllers or 1) please use 2 separate controller because the controllers will learn how the motors react and will get very confused if you switch between the motors.
Ooooooh, detailed comment, I love it! Let me reply in kind. 1. From what I can tell (and I'll recheck the specs after this reply), it's tinned so corrosion should be minimal. That said, this is a very very good point I need to consider more deeply. 2. I was thinking of stealing a concept I've read about in space travel, where they have three devices (so three arduinos) receiving the data, so that if one disagrees, it's ignored. Obviously that level of fault tolerance is a "down the road" project, but given how critical throttle input is to safety... This said, there will be an emergency stop button at the helm (which is actually part of the new ABYC regs). 3. In my previous life, I was a (am a) hoobyist woodworker. The desk you see in the video is one I made (with the help of my teachers). So using wood is as much a chance to merge two hobbies in this project. That said, I can see how your idea would work great, and probably be easier/faster. For me though, I'm actually stoked to make the handle... Probably mock it up / refine it with something simple like pine, then build the final one in a nicer wood. 4. The LittleFuse contactor I chose (specs in the description) is rated for 400A, and are rated to withstand 1000v with a greater than 50mOhm resistance at 500v. 5. The losses in the clutch is almost equally important in why I didn't want to use them. I am trying to design this system for as efficient operation / longest range I possibly can get. 6. I'll double-check the specs, but I believe side-mounting the EVE LF280K is supported. My main concern originally was minimizing spill of one blew it's pressure vent, but given ABYC requirements, I'll likely be designing some sort of catchment in the battery boxes to handle this, regardless of orientation. 7. Two separate controllers. The goal, for redundancy, will be to have complete separation between the two, including separate cooling. Running in 10kw, 5kw or both will be managed in the arduino software.
I agree on this coming from an industrial enviorment with my experiance drives and plc programing inoure very wet paper plant. I'd use an 3 channel encoder ABZ and calculate the position via count up/count down register to give what speed you want output nd send that to the drive.
@@TheDigitalMermaid thanks for your reply, 2. love to see that 3 is even beter (just keep in mind that i don't like to use 2 of the same for the reason if there is a manufacturing fault in one of them the other one wil also probably have that) 3. love to see that i have seen that you where in to woodworking (so am i sometimes if i have the time for that) but i am not so great at it that i can make a nice handel so i use the tools that exist to help me.. 4. I overlooked that in the description, my bad. They do look very nice just don't forget/misplace the flyback diode :) 6. I think indeed that it should not be a problem 7. perfect i just didn't catch it in the video (probably my bad)
@@tommussington8330 those are really nice but very expensive last time i checked, they are also a pain in the ass to program with arduino... (its possible that you can find a library that i don't know of...)
Sadly, not at all the same cost, given I saved a lot DIY'ing the build. More though, I don't need that much power, and most of the model 3 still use high voltage and cobalt based cells
Yes, but it's not practical in my opinion. The power curve from a wind generator is very steep, and the window where they make rated power and when they need to be braked to avoid over speed is quite narrow. I've spoken to several folks with wind generators, and the output never really seems worth it. The reason I'm going so in on hydro generation is that over-speed is all but a non-issue, because the hull speed of the boat sets an absolute upper limit. So I'd rather not have the wind generator shading solar panels or taking up storage space.
I'd love to chat with them someday, but at this point, I suspect my channel is too small, and they probably get an endless stream of emails and requests. So, someday, but I worry I'd just be annoying if I reached out now. :)
i'm still watching. it's a long tunnel, but i think i see a weak light at the end. you are making progress!! you may have said some where in the past but i'll ask here. what prop is on the boat now? from what you described as your method of operation, having/buying a feathering/folding prop won't allow you to charge while sailing. i did go to the website for the prop you are looking at and it says it can be used for that charging. it must be a magic prop. (lol) i also noticed they don't start giving numbers for charging until the boat speed is at least 5 knots. maybe that is when the magic begins. my first prop (3 blades fixed, 16 x12 cupped) would not start turning under sail until i reached 4 knots. i have changed things since then and have not done enough sailing to notice (smooth & quiet now) if it still takes that much speed or not. the old prop guy in San Diego said the more diameter with less pitch gives best results. their math came up with a "28" number for my prop. diameter plus pitch. he said for a displacement boat (not planing), don't go over square (pitch & diameter the same or pitch larger than diameter. for me, the limit would be 14 x14). i'm not saying don't buy that prop, but do study it well! it is a big investment and will be a major part of your overall plan. would be a shame if it did not live up to the hip. btw, a free-wheeling prop is not nearly the drag of a locked prop.
The current prop is a maxprop 3-blade feathering 13". It's a great prop in great condition, and I'm hoping to sell it when the time comes to help fund the project. The new prop is a different kind of feathering prop (linked in the description, and follow to their youtube channel to see videos of how it works). In short, the blades flip over 180 degrees, so they can design the pitch for optimal forward efficiency. When you want to go astern, the blades flip over, so now they have the optimal pitch for astern motion. This is the orientation they take for regen, also, meaning you can get optimal regen from them. if you want to feather instead, lock the prop shaft and they go into the 90 degree feathered position. The main concern for me, is the noise and vibration. I was spoiled that my boat came with the maxiprop... I didn't realize that until I was sailing on a boat with a fixed blade prop, and I suddenly noticed a vibration in the cockpit and a weird noise. I asked the captain what it was, and he looked at me weird and said "that's the prop free spinning". After that, I was like oooookay, I never want a fixed blade prop! I was stoked to find the Ecostar given it can feather and do regen!
@@TheDigitalMermaid how does that saying go? "never say never, right? why do you think being a fixed bladed prop would be any worse than any other prop? have you ever had a tire out of balance? if so, you know it is not a nice ride, at least at some speeds. but because of that you won't quit using rubber tires will you? so, remember my comment about "smooth & quiet"? well, same fixed prop. it is just no longer hooked directly to the engine. i have a pillow block arrangement now that takes the thrust and are smooth as silk. plus no shaft alignment problems any more. from there a couple of u-joints and short shaft go to trans. engine is on soft mounts. different ball game. your drive will be very similar to that. since you are planning to belt drive the shaft, the shaft will have to have a bearing on the end to take the thrust and support the shaft. using a bearing like this... catalog.amibearings.com/item/spherical-o-d-accu-loc-bearing-insert/centric-collar-locking-bearing-insert-ue200-series/ue205-16 the shaft will be centered perfectly. use the style pillow block of your choice. i use a couple of shaft collars (one on each side of the bearing on the shaft) to insure the shaft stays in place. be careful where you buy. some stores think they are made of gold. here is one priced right that i used... thebigbearingstore.com/1-concentric-locking-flange-bearing-uef205-16/ so you reverse the motor, blades perform for going backwards, then stay that way unless you stop the shaft from turning? how cool is that?
I think you can couple the 2 Motors to Prop Shaft using electric device, such as an A/C Clutch, so that you can swith between them on the fly. Just my 2 cents..
I'm certain I could, but I worry about adding more parts... A part that doesn't exist can't break. I suspect that I'll find that I'll run on the 5kw 90% of the time, and only switch to the 10kw rarely. If that's true, swapping a belt won't be a big deal. If I find myself swapping more often, then I'll revisit clutches.
To get good regen, a variable pitch prop is required to maximise the power produced. The equasion is half the area by density by velocity cubed. Water speed is critical.
@@TheDigitalMermaid A/2 x d x V3 . The prop is important but double the area of the sweep and you get double the power production, double the water speed and you get 8 times the power production. The variable pitch just spins at an optimal rate to maximize generator efficiency at that boat speed. Most feathering props have adjustable pitch. With a displacement hull just adjust the reverse pitch to the most common hull speed to get suitable rotation speed for the generator. However that may be not the best pitch for reverse thrust. I admire your work but because boat speed is so critical for regeneration a faster hull design works much better also much more expensive.
Current ratings are for long runs of cable, not short runs. The manufacturer of the motor would have installed them in the motor. You need to place the controller next to the motor. Now, the cables that supply the controller must be much larger. I would recommend welding cable because it is very flexible, maybe 4/0. Test run your boat on your present prop and if necessary , calculate for another size prop. I would recommend getting the entire controller system from the manufacturer of the controller. Those anduino boards are not professional and will fail on the open sea.
Sort of, yes. I often use voltage drop calculators to figure the voltage drop over a given lenght/size of cable for a given run. I aim to stay under 2% drop, but if a run is tricky for some reason, I'll go up to 3% drop, but never more, and ideally much less.
On the prop; I need to get a new prop shaft to account for the new thrust bearings, and it'll have the taper and thread for the new prop. So comparing the 13" maxiprop to the 17" Ecostar is not really on the table I'm afraid. As for the arduino; I hinted at this in the video, but didn't go into detail; The atmega is to get started. The longer term plan is to move to a proper pic on a proper circuit board. The arduino is great for this early stage work.
Thanks , this is great ...Love it ....I am running my Fjord 30 Cabin , on 2 Haswing Ventura R 2600w 24v with 3 x 280 Ah 22kwh Lifepo4 Outboard ,one in each side and is installing a 6000wOutboard Epropulsion in the middel 51,8v 238Ah 966 cells Li-ion 12kwh (34 kWh Total) , that i had laying around from , my 350 Rib projekt ...for now i have a 200hps Verado in the middel ...
Hi ,TDM ..I have corrected the battery size ,it was wrong. Close quarter manoeuvring... Yes thats the fun part , for now , and canal sailing in copenhagen , i only use them in the open seas, in comb with the 200hps Verado. I run 4 x 24 v chargers Variable 5-30A and 1x 51,8v 5-30A ,so i can charge , what ever place ,if the only have ex 230v 5-10 A ,then i can still charge ....With only the 2 Haswing Ventura is not enough , but i only want Outboards , because i live on my boat and in my boathouse ,so my boat is always in the water Its very cold here and i wanna take of the motores in the winther time ,and keep them indoors ...... The way you do it, and with 100kWh is the best way to do it ,and you keep it simple , me too ....Happy new year ..@@TheDigitalMermaid
Overkill is best kill! Joking aside, and I hinted at it towards then end, but it might well be. I really really hope I can make it work, but I realize I may need to cut back some. If I do, well, I'll sell a couple off and use that to help fund other parts of the project.
@@TheDigitalMermaid well I’m really looking forward to your journey. It’s so exciting. I hate it when people say but what about the range blah blah blah. and I just want to yell… it’s a sailboat not a motorboat. There are a number of fully electric boats that’s crossed the Atlantic and some more than once. Diesel runs out that’s why people use it sparingly. On a sunny day you can refuel your electric boat in the middle of the ocean. I’m ranting 😂😂😂
@@iMcWatch EXACTLY! I think, with my setup, I'll have MORE effective range than a diesel equivalent, exactly because I can generate my own "fuel" on the go.
all of this sounds great theoretically - and it seems you have possibly plenty of redundancy - but what if's and they are likely to happen, jump up and bite your ass when least expected - will you have some kind of motion recharge besides solar, perhaps small wind turbine (might be irritating) or a small hamster wheel off the side of the boat to charge while on the move, in case something goes wrong, faulty battery, a bank of batteries stops charging, you use more power than expected, power drains etc now the insurance things sounds way too limiting, look for inspiration in aviation, all aircraft are insured, including home builds, they are classed as experimental, surely there is something somewhere can you imagine, someone converts their on grid house to off grid, sorry, won't insure because that's not normal, tell your insurance to drop dead, someone here will assist i'm sure
Oh, you plan for everything, and then get bit by the one thing you overlooked, which always feels so obvious in hindsight. It is "The Way". The two main sources of charge will be solar and prop regen, with (eventually) a small diesel as a last-change fall-back. Wind doesn't seem to be worth it, given the space it takes, the shading it causes and the fact that it only generates decent power at near-max speeds (after which you need to brake it). Insurance is a pain in the ass, but I am trying my level best to "Do It Right". I'm already working every thread I can pull, and in the end, I only need one to bite. Insurance for boats seems to be the most restrictive and limited for whatever reason.
@@TheDigitalMermaid i wondered whether you might build a RAM (ram air turbine) same as fitted to aircraft, but guess the fan you will be fitting doubles up, which i know little of - apart from the direction 'Anzio??' pods on larger shits
@@patchmack4469 I know nothing about ram air, but I have to assume that by the time the winds get to a point on a sailboat that ram air is effective, charging my batteries is probably the furthest thing from my mind... lol.
1300 lbs. battery weight wont be a factor. Your diesel engine was half that. Your fuel made up most of the rest of the weight. its close enough that I do not think its gonna be an issue for your boat. Remember to load balance so you do not hobby horse. when you build your arch the added weigh needs to be added to chain locker area. Adding 2 house banks near the Bow cabin/ anchor locker area can balance the difference a bit. so maybe even another water tank up near the bow might be needed. Again balance the weight you add on for solar arch with weigh at same spots on the bow accordingly.
Aye, I was trying to think it out, and I got to the point where I realized "just do it and see". Hobby horsing is another concern, too. I'll get her in next summer (I hope!) and then I can just try and see how she handles, and move things around to see if I can get her nicely balanced or not. The idea of moving the packs forward is that it would replace the ~150 liter water tank, making it about a wash for weight distribution.
@@TheDigitalMermaid How about wiring the batteries as a pair of very long / skinny batteries that run along the fronts of the settees, under the seats? It would distribute the weight linearly, low and near the center of gravity. Just thinking outside the (battery) box.
I considered that, and it was actually a design I tried in the very early days. In my boat though, the interior space is _tight_. Losing space in the main saloon is a very hard thing to justify.
Look again at the torque vs efficiency graphs at 25:00. The 10kW motor's efficiency peaks at 12N.m. The 5kW peaks at 6N.m, but there's a trivial difference vs 12N.m. The efficiency (see ~13:00) goes up as the shaft speed goes *down*. But, surely lower speed over water implies lower prop RPMs, which implies a *lower* motor shaft speed? ISTM the higher efficiencies either need a smaller boat or a bigger propeller?? ISTM those graphs in no way reflect the real world performance with a fixed size / fixed feather prop. Perhaps equates to a high RPM with the prop mostly feathered, but would you run the prop that way??? If you had 2x 10kW motors, but one of them had a drive sprocket twice the diameter, wouldn't that 10kW motor would be in its high efficiency torque output at half the prop torque?
So when I was talking to Brunton, and I sent them the dimensions and told them about the electric conversion, I said that I had not yet set the pulley ratio, and that I could do so to suit their recommended RPM. They included that (peak of 1200rpm) and recommended the 430mm prop (three-blade feathering). The details are linked in the description. All you're talking about is stuff I've considered, but as much as I try to know how things will be before hand, it's all just theory. The real test will be getting in the water and just, going. Even post-launch, I could experiment with different pulley ratios, etc. I full expect to do a LOT of experimenting to find more ideal configurations. It's partly why I am so excited to get in the water as soon as I can. Nothing teaches you better that actual real world testing!
@@TheDigitalMermaidI should have realised - you don't do stuff half-hearted. 😂 Have you considered a toroidal prop? Two Bit Da Vinci did a video - search for "genius propeller". Doesn't feather, of course, and no idea if it's any good for regen.
I saw all the hype when it was first coming out, and I saw the guy who did the 3d tests. It's a tech I'll keep an eye on, but for now I'm favouring tried-and-true for the prop. :)
@@TheDigitalMermaidI've just seen an article on New Atlas about a contra-rotating Shannon prop. Of course, it doubles the price of their single-prop device. 😱 Article says "Sharrow claims that it patented props can improve efficiency to the tune of 30 percent more range, boost reverse thrust by 50 percent". Is that the same as saying it's 50% better for regen????
I would bring a 2-3kw small generator that uses pump gas. a Honda or a generic depending on budget. That would give you with with 10 gallons around 40kw of charging. That would be your backup to backup.
The current plan is, before I start travelling, to try to rig up a single cylinder 8~12hp air-cooled diesel to a 60~100A 48v-native alternator, something like the Balmar 60 or 100. Diesel gives you almost 2x the kw per liter of fuel, and I'll have diesel anyway for the hydronic heater and stove.
So, a) love your nickname! b) in the very early days of the project, I gave that a very real consideration. Also, considered installing a smaller generator where the engine is/was also. In the end though, I decided I'd rather the space for even more batteries. Go all in!
My late grandpa was a librarian for much of his life, and I remember him having sweaters with leather patched elbows. So I kinda had that idea already, as a kinda nod to him.
Also, consider getting a proper, automotive grade microcontroller, arduino board will die when it smells saltwater. I would be happy to help with getting it going if you want.
@@alexpyattaev Andrew and I are planning, when the design is done, to make a custom PCB. If/when that happens, it'll be beefed up and tinned, conformally coated, etc.
I enjoy watching your videos! What a project! I'm an electric boat enthusiast myself, but with smaller dingies in fresh water during summer in Norway. I currently use a Golden motor X10 (6.5KW), and it has been running great since I got it a year ago. As this is a mobile setup, I decided to switch from Lifepo4 48V pack to a 14S NMC battery build to save some weight. I'm aware of the more aggressive chemistry, so everything is built sealed in a water tight box. My pack lost almost 10KG and I gained 70% more juice for longer runtime. Obviously no solution for a wooden sailboat, but if solid state batteries get mainstream, you can potentially get three times more dens than with Lifepo4.
In my mind, the real goal is for someone to understand the pros and cons of the available choices. If someone understands the concerns around NMC, and chooses it anyway, all good. I wouldn't do it, but then, I'm doing stuff others would never do. In the end, we're having fun as safely as each of us can. :)
"well, you wont think twice, you'll be dead very quickly, but I digress" but what the heck? what issue does the insurance company have with the conversion?? Just the unknown?? and btw, love the music :)
Love your channel. I had roughly the same sized diesel engine in a Gemini Catamaran but with a leg like an inboard/outboard. The leg is not made any more and the parts are getting hard to find so I swapped it out for an long leg outboard a few years ago. I have warned my wife that next time I would really like to go electric. Hopefully by then long legged affordable electric outboards will be available.
I think you're referring to "Sail drive" type motors, eh? I've seen plenty of electric sail drives, if so. Electric sailing is a young tech, but it's evolving FAST. By the time you need to look at a repower, the options should be a lot more that today.
@TheDigitalMermaid The difference with a typical sail drive is for my boat the engine needs to be raiseable like an outboard or a inboard/outboard leg. The Gemini 105M can pull up its rudders and centreboards and get into 18" of water which lets us poke into places on the coast of BC that we couldn't in our previous boat a Catalina 30'. Torqeedo outboards were around when I repowered but way out of my price range but yes, prices have been dropping and more options are coming all the time. Thank you for all the information you provide during your learning experience.
@@TheDigitalMermaid Other owners beach the Geminis but I think I would only do that in an emergency. I am looking forward to the your solar arch. That is on my list of to do's. I just built a light weight version using canopy parts and it is good enough for 4 100 watt panels but I want something sturdier that I can also use to lift the dinghy.
@@mngbennett The solar arch is something I've got a vague plan for but I'm not diving into in details yet. I'm waiting to see how to balance of the boat is after the batteries and motors are in, to get a feel for how miserly I need to be with the weight.
Hi Maddy, great to see you havent lost your spirit, after the sailing home adventure haha. Very interesting and challenging what your about to do. Great to see your enthousiasm. Nice sweater by the way!
The trip home removed any lingering doubt, to be honest. It was when I finally got to see the reality of extended travel and living on a boat, and I LOVED IT. Even with all the problems, my drive is redoubled after that trip. Thanks for the kind comment, and the sweater IS AWESOME!
Great video. Here is my amperage calculation. You must devide 360A with 3 phases and probably also devide by two because of two wires. So each wire is loaded with max 60A.
OOOOOOH, huh, why didn't I think of / realize this! OK, that makes a lot more sense why the wires are relatively smaller. Thank you!
@@TheDigitalMermaid - We all have times where we can't the forest with all that trees
You could use a gear system so you can switch between the big motor and a 5 kw motor. OK you need a second controller for it.
Thanks for this, came to say this and you beat me to it.
I could, but I'm really favouring simplicity as much as I can... A part that doesn't exist is a part that can't fail. :)
@@TheDigitalMermaid I was referring to the 3 phase power current requirements per lead but thanks for the reply. I just became a Patreon. You are much like me, I like to do all discrete design elements by myself, but sometimes I get stuck and say, you know what, that complicated relay protection assembly for illusory back emf protetection I have been trying to prototype for 3 weeks is better served by a $6 dollar board with a box of spares.
14:35 "I haven't torn it apart yet" -- that's probably the most digimer thing you've said on your channel.
Well this comment was
I very much enjoy these theory-craft style of videos, even though I assume the greater public may not. Thanks for all the detail, as always.
What I can offer in contribution later on: Like you, I have an an IT/coding background (C++ specifically). So once the code for the throttle-management-arduino is written, I can do a code review. Having more eyes on critical code/infrastructure like that surely won't hurt. I had forgotten to join the patreon discord, but fixed that now. So if/when you want eyes on something C++, just let me know.
See, this is why I love open source! I didn't mention it in the video, but one of the things I'm hoping to do longer term is to have a small community of folks working on / helping with an open platform for boating. One of the reasons I decided to go inboard was that I couldn't find a pod system (or really even inboard systems) that were truly hackable. If I can make this work, my dream is that it might kinda become a seed for an open marine platform (and who knows what else). So yes, code review would be more than appreciated! I'll setup a github repo when I finally get started.
@@TheDigitalMermaid yeah well... if you really want to promote open-source, you may have to take a look at the vesc before using this kelly thing ^^ you would have everything you want and a basis for real open source, non proprietary protocol...etc (as well as less headache.. because kelly... you know.. hum :) )
Heh, well what's the old saying; "Don't let perfection be the enemy of 'good enough'.". I love open source, but I'm not a zealot also. For this project, it's striking a balance between hackable / repairable and time to get back on the water. Who knows though, down the road a controller swap might entirely be on the table.
This approach with the different motors is very interesting! Looking forward to see how it comes in reality and what kind of performance you can get it with that and of course the regen.
For my new boat, I’m planning to do double saildrive system with two 10 kW motors. But this video made me think that should I do something similar for them to get more efficiency and maybe more regen efficiency.
One thing I have also been thinking used to really optimise everything from the propeller up especially for the regen! Propeller for that looks very different from propulsion one, but it should work for propulsion as well if needed.
Keep it up!👍🏼
Thanks for watching! How long until you install your motors? If your channel is more or less up to date, I'm guessing not for the '24 season? If that's the case, I should hopefully have field-tests / real results before you buy. :)
@@TheDigitalMermaid Still several years to go for me!
After posting, I went back and watched some of your older videos. Really ambitious project! I'm very keen to see how you make progress with it. If you have a few years ahead of you still, well perhaps I'll be visiting Finland before you install your motors. :D
Hey, you look so awesome in the new sweater! :)
Looks like more awesome stuff is coming. I'll be sticking around, sweetheart!
It was such a lovely early Christmas present! Of course, happy to have you around always. Coming content will be much more up your alley.
@@TheDigitalMermaid ha! Same here. My teeny tiny channel just turned two. I'll be doing some C64 stuff pretty soon, too :).
We run parallel motors on our machines at work all the time we set them up to speed following but limit the torque to 80% (that can be tuned up or down to suit each application) on the slave.
That way the slave has the correct speed reference to match the master motor rpm but it just go’s in to torque limit and sits there helping master along.
OK, so, I think I kinda understand what you're saying, but not completely. Can you recommend any articles or papers that explain this in more technical detail? I'd love to learn more about this.
@@TheDigitalMermaid we use AC motors and drives but principal is the same here is a Siemens white paper on parallel drives and motors for rolling industry but dont worry about what its driving.
cache.industry.siemens.com/dl/files/055/14390055/att_870428/v2/FAQ-CD7F6930_MM4-multi_motor_en.pdf
@@TheDigitalMermaid this one you will have to translate but prinipals are the same with mater slave configuration giving slave torque limit.
th-cam.com/video/_mtBwfcru-Y/w-d-xo.html
@digimer sound familiar?
Brilliant, thank you!
I'm excited about this new phase! Please reach out if there is anything I can help with - or if you get to a point where you want to air it out on a podcast! Keep it up!
Will do! As I mentioned in the video, and maybe even on the podcast; My long term goal is to help build an open source, hackable marine platform. So sharing all the code and designs is part of that, specifically because I know folks will improve it far better than I could ever do alone.
Enjoyed the video. Thanks for sharing
I'm really happy to hear that, Lou!
Thanks for explaining the REGEN concept
SAIL POWER + propeller sending ELECTRICITY back to the 48 volt BATTERIES
Thanks
COOP
...
Love it! Don't hesitate with any questions about the SoftPot rotary membrane potentiometer. We like to assist with clarifications & support when we are able. :)
Well hello there, I have to say I wasn't expecting you fine folks to pop in! The next video, you're going to see your Softpot in the absolutely most questionable throttle setup ever. Haha! I'd LOVE to see a 180 degree version, as I'm leaving a lot of fidelity on the table using the 353 degree one. ^_^
100Kwh at 48V! Mother of God!!! Please blow another T Class! Million views waiting to happen! 🤣Seriously though, great job on the efficiency curves and 5Kw and 10Kw multimotor scheme. Guessing the entire surface will be wallpapered in flexible thin sheet solar cells.
Hahaha! I am sure I'll screw up drastically, it's my habit, but I'm not gonna bring it on sooner. I darn neat shat my pantaloons last time! My goal is to get 1200~1500w of solar, but even that is admittedly "optimistic" on a canoe-stern sailboat like mine... Prop regen is what I'm really banking on.
You are incredible! Your enthusiasm and capability is infectious. Good luck :)
To me, the greatest compliment is hearing that I helped encourage others to take on a task. So if my enthusiasm is infections, than I am really happy!
Wow, this phase is going to be fun. I sure liked the boaty parts, but now that I know you're going to do this the hard way (and why wouldn't you?), the technical parts will be quite interesting!
Thanks! I really hope it's fun and maybe helpful for fellow nerds who might want to do something like this, too.
Why not have the motor not in use free spin the controller can do that and there is minimum loss once its at speed and in an emergency you could have 15 kw of power
So, I've had a few comments suggest this now, and originally I thought it would be a waste of power / loss in efficiency, but it seems like there might be a way to free-spin the motor with minimal losses.... So this will be something I look more into as the project moves on. If I could leave both connected all the time, that would be brilliant.
Take a look at African Ironwood.Very hard and blackisch. Big pores and very stable.
I've seen ironwood, it's brilliant! I really want teak, if I can swallow the cost, as I'd love for it to match the existing teak toe rails on the boat.
Looking forward to all your future videos
Thanks, Darryl!
You saying you will run a 5kw and 10kw motor, and be able to swap between as required? EDIT - yes, and that all sounds good.
Very interesting but I am an engineer so you know how that goes. Just wondering thatt you did not mentiion and data regarding Propeller performance data; you should get from the prop mfr curves of thrust vs RPM and efficiency. This will also lead you to think about about the match between your most efficient motor speeds and how well they math with the prop.
Electronic devices are available that you can bolt in-line between the prop shaft and the motor or engine that will give a real time readout of torque and very expensive but perhaps the prop manufacturer has done some testing using such a device. FYI, they work on the principle of the amount off shaft twist as measured by a strain gauge.
Does the boat have clearance for a larger prop?
Merry Christmas
I mentioned that I'll be going into more detail on the propeller in a future video, as it's a huge topic. I linked in the description the propeller I am planning on, and I sent my measurements and other details, and they sent back a recommended size and optimal RPM. Using that will be what sets my pulley ratio (~3:1 ~4:1). The boat does have generous clearance, and that's why the recommended the 430mm (~17"), compared to the current ~13" prop I have on her now.
I really want to have a way of measuring the real world output power, to calculate/display in real time the effective efficiency of the motor versus the input power. I'd LOVE to be able to "dial in" peak efficiency", also factoring in the boat's speed in water.
hi Maddy, had a small brian wave hit my skull. I this and an other video you talked about water cooling eletronic parts. Would it be an advantage to keep the cooling inside the hull, use the heat too warm up the cabin or watertanks, and all so have one less hole in the hull. And frome what i knowh, unless you are boating in the tropics, ships/boats get a ton of cooling from wind and water in contact with the hull, so maybe at bit of ekstra warmth might be nice.And you would get it from power you anyhow had to use too move the boat. Maybe it is at total no go brian wave, but now it has been shared , and you are free to use it or leav it to die . No hard fellings. :-)
So, I didn't talk about it in this video, but that is actually the plan now. I don't want to use sea water cooling anymore, too much of a hassle. So the current plan, and it's very vague as I can't yet know how much real cooling I'll need until I do sea trials, is to setup a couple air-sourced radiators, vented using the old engine bay vents that exhaust behind the helm. If that works, redirecting the flow to pull air in and exhaust the warmed air into the cabin in cold climates should be viable.
(So I think you thought of this already, but I’ll leave the comment anyway. :) I have no experience doing what you are doing, but some questions come to mind. Maybe running a 5kw and a 10kw motor will let you pick the most efficient one for the speed you want. Also, I suspect that the regen efficiency curves are similar to the output efficiency curves so you may get better regen efficiency at low speed from the 5kw motor. Anyway, I appreciate your explanations and thought process. Good job!
The regen efficiency tracking the output efficiency is very much what I hope turns out to be true... If so, this should help scavenge power even at relatively lower speeds!
In the UK my boat is classed as a sailing vessel with auxiliary engine. I haven't asked the insurance broker but the type of engine (petrol/diesel/inboard/outboard/pedals) is unspecified. So if I changed mine, I wouldn't be informing anyone. I suspect you've been told something by someone who knows nothing, but is taking the safe line. (There are better descriptions for people like this.)
I run my own business, and have for over 20 years. It's made me very cautious about keeping everything above board, and in this case, I wanted them to know so that I wouldn't face a rejected claim if something happened. I know many projects just swap the motor and don't say anything, and I get it, but I'm too paranoid for that.
Maddy I can't help but wonder when considering wasted energy, about the large inefficiency's of belt drives over a direct drive coupling, along with less need for, and stress on carrier bearings that will also require regular servicing etc.
If using a second motor I'm sure they can be bought with double ended shafts so that two motors can be mounted direct coupled inline.
Maddy you may have already considered all this, and I am certainly no authority on this, I'm just throwing it out there.
The prop will be and interesting subject as well, I'm assuming that the propeller pitch for drive/propulsion will be vastly different than the pitch required for regen?
Always love your videos and watching you figure things out.
Direct coupling would certainly be ideal, but it's just not feasible on my boat. The old engine uses a v-drive transmission, which you can see in the clip where I'm on the boat talking about the battery placement. So the best I can do is try to get the most efficient belt setup I can.
Get the sweater fixed ..and elbows patched.
I have a couple of Arrans all round the British isles fishermens wives and fishermen would sit knitting local styles of jumper and each familly and community had its own patterns. The wool would be oiled with lanolin oil to keep water at bay and generate added warmth. It works . The knit needs to be tight to keep wind and water out and warmth in.
The one historic downer, is one of the reasons for the unique patterns, if a fisherman went overboard and the body was found it would allow them to haul it out of the water and identify it.
Another fact is a common name for a jumper in the UK is a Jersey... Jersey and Gurnsey are channel islands and known for their own styles of fishermens jumpers... In Scotland and the NE jumpers are called Gansey's .
I almost forgot look up a bunch of Canadian logging truck guys and their Electric Hybrid the Edison Topsey .. more power more torque less wt and when using the generator its up to 50% more fuel efficient and cleaner burning...less maintainance and back up.
I had heard the story about the sweaters being unique to help ID bodies, really drives home the risk fisherfolk used to face. I absolutley love good sweaters, and I want to keep them for a long time. My neighbour already fixed the orange sweater once, so I'll be asking her if she can help me again. :)
@@TheDigitalMermaid
Spent my younger days studying down in the West country near to where Daz cats and Wharrams are from ..when we were not on the coast we would be doing field work on the Moors. Oiled wool sweaters
Were standard kit. The Royal Navy were incredibly disgruntled when they were told they would have to give up their
traditional white oiled wool roll neck sweaters.... They kept wearing them i dont think anyone dared rock that particular boat. 😂🧙♂️
@@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665 I've not learned much about oiling sweaters, but I very much expect to learn all about it. I love 'em, and expect to be wearing decent ones for many many years out of the water. :)
@@TheDigitalMermaid
Lol 👍🏼🤞🏼 yup
The other key to hybrids is simpler smaller gen motors th-cam.com/video/Nhwtq-a-EXI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=_QhEZixQwuQSECn1
You are the best. We are going to be literally following in your footsteps with our Cape Dory 28.
This makes me very very happy to hear! Please share your conversion progress, I'd love to hear how it goes!
You know, if nothing else there are portable generators that could save you in a pinch. In a "lack of shore power" situation that is.
I've got longer-term plans to take an 8~12hp single cylinder air cooled diesel and mate it to a 48v native alternator, like the Balmar 60 or 100 (which speaks LFP). Basically, get the smallest possible bang bang box to turn diesel into kw as efficiently as possible, and then do everything in my power to never use it.
Is the plan to regen under wind power? that sounds like a decent plan, it may only slow you down a small bit.. interesting idea.
Wind in the sails, prop in the water regen, yup. It's how I plan to get most of my power... Less than solar at full sun, but it'll work day and night, so long as the sails are up and there's enough wind. I will lose speed in water, but this setup allows me to lock the prop shaft and the prop will feather if I really want the speed more than the power.
"Noooo, don't replace that crusty 45 year old diesel motor, that would be too much risk for us to take on" - Insurance companies, probably
Learn to live your Yanmar@@TheDigitalMermaid- that way you always have someone else to blame!
N.B. It is a little known fact that both tides and Ocean currents are caused by untapped oil and gas sloshing around in the Earth's crust and we, as sailors, are duty bound to do our bit to rescue the planet by burning every last drop of Dinosaur Juice before the planet spins out of control. There's no point arguing with The Science, Madi!
Haha! But ya, no, the Yanmar has to go. :)
I love the 'overkill' and 'over-engineering' aspect of this build. Awesome!! Can't wait to see it.
^_^ - Thanks, Michael! Overkill is bestkill.
Why not just electrically disengage the motor you don’t intend to use? Then you can have both motors belted at all times and just free spin the motor you’re not using. You’ll be able to switch instantly when needed.
The motors have a lot of resistance when not powered (I can't turn the 10kw by hand), but also added wear on the motor.
@@TheDigitalMermaid that is because there is something hooked up in side that is cause them to act like breaks. If you wire the coils together they will do that . unhooked there shouldn't be anything like that. Random - This happens with speaker cones - take a cone and tap it -- it sounds hollow and resonates. then hook a wire form + to - tap and again, and it is not resonant, its "tight".
@@kevinnemrava Trick is, without modifying the motor, can that be disengaged? I would worry that if so, I'd lose the ability to do regen.
@@TheDigitalMermaid I uploaded the image of your motors wiring diagram to ChatGPT and it suggested that to free spin the motor you have to first cut power to it, and second disconnect the load. To do that, here's what it said.
Control Signal Management: BLDC motors are typically controlled by electronic controllers that manage the timing and power delivered to the motor's coils. If you have a controller like the one depicted in the image, you can disengage the motor by disabling the control signals. This could be done through a switch, a relay, or a software command, depending on your controller's capabilities.
I'm couldn't say if this is accurate, or if your controller can do this, but it seems worth a poke around.
Aye, I do plan to play around with free-spinning, so thanks for this. I'll dig more into it again when I get to that phase of the project. :)
It is my tragedy that I never met a woman as tech as you... sad.
The problem is that women have been taught for generations that tech isn't for us. One of my biggest hopes with this channel it to help show others, particularly younger women, that this can very much be for them, if they find it fun. The idea of hobbies and jobs being gendered is a tragedy, in my mind.
@TheDigitalMermaid - 7 * 280A = 1960 A * 48V = Jesus what a power. Nearly 100 KW
- I was 3 minutes faster abut the 100 KW you mentioned. haha.
- if you visit my country you need 230V ;-)
- Have you thought to install a small 2KW diesel generator?
- Arduino Help. I can help with an esp32 too. With that you could have a web page via WiFi Ap on that esp32 to setup and control the motor/controller.
- I wish i would live bear your place, then i could teach all what you need to know on solar and Arduino/esp32 coding.
LFP 16s packs have a nominal voltage of 51.2v, x 280Ah x 7 is 100.3kwh. I'm planning to have two Multiplus-II 5000VA inverter/chargers, a 120v and a 230v version. So when I switch to a different power region, I can move the shore power connection to the appropriate Multiplus. I do plan to add a diesel generator eventually, but even when I do, I will do everything in my power to never use it.
The arduino is to start. I actually talked to my friend Andrew last night for a couple of hours about porting the arduino test setup to an esp32 or smt32 when I'm ready to switch to a proper circuit board.
Hey it's me from episode 79. Very happy to see you made it back safely. You have great detailed content and looking forward to your adventures.
Hiya Crane! Nice to see you around, and thanks! I'm happy when people appreciate the heavier technical content. :)
Hi Maddy, thanks for sharing your thoughts, I've got a couple of questions, maybe a heads-up. I saw a resistive with ball bearing setup for your input throttle: please be aware that you are in a saline environment, it will oxidate faster than you think, essentially killing your possibility to drive the engine, try to find either a capacative or optical way of doing this as it would last a lot longer and is sturdier (alike the resistive vs capacitive plant sensors), this is just my fear when running such parts. Also you conversed HP to KW. The Diesel KW is maybe 40% effective, so a large 100KW motor hasn't got 40KW of output, so maybe your peak isn't that import but more the turning speed of the propellor, the diesel engine running at a certain RPM drives the shaft at a certain RPM, that might be important as a electric engine might run different speed and that conversion is important for the "driveability" of the propellor. And finally, when you want to regenerate from a propellor, it's shape will be important, because they might be having different "drags" in water, so a high power conversion propellor might slow down your boat when it is still. So maybe think of two propellors or generators on the side of the boat which are facing forward to charge the batteries. (But the last one might be a little lame when running on engine power). Probably you might need a conversionbox for the speed of the propellor shaft vs the speed of the electric engine. Just my thoughts, I'm no mechanical engineer, but let them please advice you on how to make this marine grade ready.
You're already the second comment to warn about the pot corroding, so I will certainly pay attention to that. I'll have spares, of course, but I might see about conformally coating all metal bits for extra protection. There will be an e-stop button at the helm (ABYC requires this), so in a pickle, that'll be the safety. The prop size and speed is hugely influential in efficiency, as I understand it, and it's partly why I'm investing so much in the prop I've chosen. This prop also flips over 180 degrees, so it has optimal pitch in forward, and in reverse/regen.
@@TheDigitalMermaid The good part is speaking freely on your planning, this will give you people reacting on your choices, either positive or negative and gives you to think about options. One of the parts of marine stuff it's mostly very expensive but for the reasons of running into storms and water goes everywhere then and salty water is evil 🤔. So I'm glad you look into the reactions and make your planning better. Just also to give you a heads-up, I think you follow Andy's channel, but he made a breakthrough with JK, the new BMSes might help your Victron setup to work better. And looking at what you plan to do, maybe try to have two seperate setups in your vessel, 3 banks primary power, 3 banks switchover power and 1 bank as general or backup power. This will give you options when you hit the ground running. With 2 MP's and 2 different solar inputs this might save you from harm (you can think of joining things or switching things). Just my thoughts not to critique you. Have fun planning and getting things to work, love to follow the proces.
@@edwardvanhazendonk A huge reason I wanted to start this channel is for the feedback. Taking in advice and experience from others is so important to giving this project the best chance of succeeding. I'm a few episodes behind on Andy's channel, but I am hoping to get caught back up asap. I know there's been a lot of JK developments. On the solar, the goal will be to have at least two MPPTs, one for port and one for stbd. Everything important will be redundant, for sure.
@@TheDigitalMermaid The quick summary: JK fixed all his major complaints and the BMSes function exactly how he'd like them to.
Excellent!
I really like the idea of having two different Multiplus II's for worldwide power compatibility. I would drop a question in the Victron community forum to see if anyone has done that to hopefully avoid any gotchas.
If you've got a CAN bus on the controller, why not have your Arduino use that to drive the controller? That will probably be easier than dealing with analog signals in the presence of all the switching noise. Also, you showed the potentiometer you're planning to use as a throttle input. Cars often have multiple separate potentiometers for redundancy. You might want to look into modifying a car throttle pedal since they've already done the hard engineering.
Enjoyed the video. Good info. Thanks for sharing
Great video. I'm doing a similar thing with a power catamaran. I'm planning approx 45kwh per hull and 15kW electric outboards by an Austrian company called Aquamot, their Trend 15,0 motors. I will have a 6kW solar canopy and hopefully a weight of between 4 and 5 metric tonnes. The displacement should only be about 0.5m. Like you, all this is theoretical. Good luck with the insurance company.
Having two completely separate motors/props, and so much solar area is the only thing that makes me consider cats. I envy your capacity in this way. :D Please keep me posted on your project as you work on it, I love hearing about other's projects. :)
If nothing can reweave, consider elbow patches of deerskin or chamois.
Aye, that's my fall-back, a couple leather elbow patches. My neighbour (who I am hiring to redo the cushions) is a wiz at this stuff, so I'm going to ask her to take a look at the sweater, also.
Any reason in particular to go analog with the throttle control instead of using a digital rotary encoder?
Hrm, you're the second person to ask this, and the honest answer is "I didn't really think about it". I kind of defaulted to an analogue input, given the near infinite values I can get from it. When I next talk to Andrew, I'll ask him about a digital encoder option.
@@TheDigitalMermaid Theoretically you can have infinite numbers, but your ADC is the limit here. A 10 bit ADC will give you 1024 values - you can easily get the equivalent digital encoder for this many positions.
@@upnorthandpersonal Aye, the DAC is a limiter, regardless, this is true.
We actually designed a simple wireless controller for my electric boat. It comes around to 3 buttons. First one used to put throttle higher, middle one is to stop and third one is to go reverse. If forward or reverse is pushed down, it will give a full throttle burst.
We did initial testing this fall, hoping to get that system installed next summer for actual testing. Quite easy to do with ready to go Bluetooth microcontroller dodads. So far I’ve been using simple potentiometer, but probably gonna ditch that and do this button system for the fixed install as well.
@@ArcticSeaCamel I hinted about computer control of the boat, and for that, I was imagining from a tablet or phone, so wireless effectively. That said, I want to always have a hard-wired set of controls at the help that overrides any other signals. I'm old enough to never trust tech that much, particularly wireless tech. :)
Suggest that you consider differential sizing of the motors. This still provides redundancy that you want but allows higher efficiency at “part throttle” as well as potentially greater regen.
Having some type of clutch instead of a belt would also increase efficiency, but the ability to vary the drive ratio may give better end to end efficiency.
The prop is designed for 1200 rpm, and the motor is closer to 4000rpm, so I need to reduce the gearing via different sized pulleys.
@@TheDigitalMermaid What type of belt? Toothed belt may have less losses but vee or poly vee allow some slip to protect against over torque damage if prop stalls.
Originally I was leaning v for just that reason, but I am leaning back to toothed and will consider a sheer pin as a prop-strike safety.
Just thinking. If your going to use the prop for regen, then a folding prop would not work!
ABYC is American Boat & Yacht Council. ABYC Is a group of people who are working in the boating industries. Boat designers, boat bluiders, marine insurance, marine survey, marine lawforment (USCG, CCG, Local marine police), marine repair people, boaters and engineers ( mechanical, electrical, ect).
The Ecostar Autoprod is a feathering prop, not a folding one. I've got an ABYC membership, and downloaded/read all of the relevant standards, I just can't seem to get their full name to stick in my brain... lol. It's not like it's complicated, my brain just goes "Nope! ABYC is ABYC, it has no real words".
Although you're going Arduino, you might want to use a Pi Pico as the hardware instead of an ST or Atmel based board.
The Pico has hardware programmable IO (PIO) which can run tasks without the main code itself interfering. Which gives you the benefit of if your code crashes the outputs will be sustained until the code gets reset (e.g. watchdog). So I'd think that might be an option for improving safety.
Hrm, your point is valid, but I can't shake the worry of effectively running a full OS behind the helm controls. Let me ponder it more, it's possible I'll find the arduino too limiting in the end anyway...
@@TheDigitalMermaid no, a Pi Pico is their microcontroller not the pi zero.
Hey, the new Tesla Cyber truck went to 48v power for lights and cabin electronics etc. Musk said they largely did it to save weight, because they could use a smaller gauge wire, like you were saying. Smort. BTW, can you please stop inspiring me to electrify my 1975 Honda motorcycle, please? It would cost a fortune! Maybe stop getting so excited about the unknown in your videos? Less positive energy, would also help me stay uninspired😂😂😂. This first video in ‘phase 3’ was great! Be well, and happy holidays.
12v is soooo last century. I didn't talk about it in this video, but I'm going to be doing all I can to get my boat entirely 48v. For now, some devices need to be 12v, but I'll replace them as soon as I can. Also, no, I will not stop encouraging personal project. Go! Do the thing! Happy holidays!
@TheDigitalMermaid - 360A * 48V = 17,280 KW ~ 23,2 ps/hp. That's the max output value of that motor. Not in continuous mode, haha
LFP is a nominal 3.2v/cell, so 16s is 51.2v. The controller is what you're talking about, I assume? In any case, the motor itself has a max draw of 13,282.43 watts input, for 10,535.04 watts output.
Sizing the cables to handle 400+A is going to pose topology challenges and further increase the weight distribution problem. I will try to run up some hydro dynamic calculations for the Landfall 38 and have a stab at estimating the likely stability and upwind sailing performance hit if all 7 battery banks are located aft of the mast. This will inevitably involve some simplifying assumptions, but will hopefully throw up some "Do Not Exceed" parameters
I am surprised that the insurers would take issue with you simply removing the Yanmat "whilst keeping an open mind about what to replace it with". (How else could anyone ever replace an engine or even lift one out for repair?). I take it gejr major concern in fire or explosion, in which case the preventative measures required may also have a direct impact on weight and architecture.
In closing, I see the biggest challenge you face is that 2025 is a long way away and all of this electric nononsense is going to cost you another 12 months adventure downtime. Repent your faith, hoist the sails, learn to love your Yanmar and get out on the water sooner rather than later. You know it makes sense! Let's face it - the Dinosaurs were a pretty mean bunch and probably had it coming to them : I'm thinking of copyrighting the phrase "Karmic Combustion" by the way...
To be clear, I won't be using 400A, I talked about it exactly because I wanted to show how hard it was to deal with such high currents. The very most I can pull will be 260A with the 10kw at full power, and the cables I've got feeding the controller will handle that OK.
If you can do load calcs on my hull, holy crap that would be amazing! Feel free to send me an email (click on the About tab to get my email). I'd be very happy to provide any additional details I can to help make the calcs more realistic. I wish I had the lofting plans I could send ya!
I heard back yesterday from another insurance provider who said they think they can get me coverage _after_ the conversion is done. So I asked them when would the insurance stop, given folks pull their engines out for service all the time. That is to say, what would define the uninsured time? I'm waiting for a reply, but it's the first positive progress on this front so far.
"Repent your faith" - hahaha! As an ex-Catholic, that was an amusing choice of words. ^_^ - Nah, I'd give up sailing before I'd accept a diesel, and I'm not going to give up sailing. ;) Joking aside, the whole genesis of the project was the realization on my first sail on a friends boat that it wasn't boats I disliked, it was the noisy engine I disliked. So literally since day 1, back in the summer of '19, the plan was to go electric.
Theres a young English guy mark from Wilding Sailing hes in Holland trying to complete a 42ft wharram pahi Catermeran ..
Now originally the design would have used a single larger outboard or two high torque 9hps.
I keep trying to pursuade him to do his own electric hybrid conversion. Using motors like yours ...it would simplify his propulsion needs considerably plus the Dutch along with many others are looking at banning diesel propusion from all inland waters conservation areas and some harbours.
Theres a UK company Advaced electrical Machines producing modular motors that use no perminant rare earth magnets or copper .. that might interest you theres also a German Co called Molabo who produced a low voltage version with magnetic field gearing but they are prohibitively expensive.
Battrey prices are dropping currently and Northvolt has produced a Na ion cell with the capacity of per kg equivalent close to Li phosphate.
I watch him, actually! I quite like his down-to-earth style. The thing with electric is that I would _never_ push someone towards it, because the way you think about powered propulsion really does change. I really came to understand this when I switched to an EV for my car; There are amazing pros, but also real cons. I think going electric is something someone has to want to do, in order for them to be happy with the new trade-offs.
I just looked at AEM's website, and they seem pretty light on technical specs... Ya, battery prices are coming down a lot. It's awesome, will make all this accessible to more and more people!
If you take out the diesel engine, an insurance still has to accept this. As any boat who get its engine pulled for service or rebuild. So no problem for the planning there and you can sell your engine.
Even better, since an engine is a rather big part of the total value, you might, for the period the engine is out, insure it for a lower value. Which safe some money too.
As a ultra lightweight hiker, obsessively (which actually fun to do:)) strips his gear of any non functional weight, yes even cutting toothbrush, removing labels, he reduces it's pack weight from 20kg to 7 for a 5 day trip icl tent sleeping bag cookset etc.
I am sure, that with a bit of that lightweight hiker mindset i can strip with no compromise to functionality with ease 250 kg of your boat. So instead of only thinking of what to add...= lot more weight=more displacement=more Kw to move=more to charge, think first what you can strip more than the engine alone. I see glass doors, lots, useless wood trims, do you really need a wooden 15kg door on the toilet? or will a curtain or foamcore panel do? etc etc. Race sailing boat use the same principle.
Insurance has been a huge, huge headache. Thankfully, my broker is going way above and beyond trying to find me coverage. At this time though, my current provider said they'll stop covering me once the conversion starts. Still no luck yet finding a company who will cover me. =/
On displacement, you are right, but there's a place where weight helps, and that's stability in a storm. Going too light can actually be a problem, best is to aim to be as close as possible to the designed displacement. Now, racers on the other hand... Those folks are mad bastards, haha
Regrading regen. I would advise you be a bit pessimistic on how much you are going to get from it. I am still saying you SHOULD do it, it is worth it, just don't over estimate how much you will get from it. Ever time I have ever heard numbers quoted - it has been at travel speeds higher then you would expect and also with props bigger then you expect - I suspect that it is mostly releated ot area of the "prop circle" and that how pi*r^square for the area thing means even a bit bigger prop catches WAY more water.
Oh, I fully expect to be underwhelmed, but I am trying to be as effective/efficient as I can be. That said, one of the many reasons I bought the Landfall is her cruiser/racer lineage. She's shown me how easily she car get up over 6 knots in even modest winds. You're right, going from ~13" to ~17" prop is going to be a lot more drag, but then, if I need power, I'll trade speed for kw. :)
Electric canal boats here in the UK (Cruising the cut style) is around 2-3kw for cruising speed. but that's no tide or water flow, the absolute flat water. So those figures seem in the same ballpark.
Different hull shapes, too. Canal boats are flat bottomed and not the most efficient hydrodynamic shape. That said, I've loved seeing the episodes he's done on the electric canal boats. It's brilliant seeing more and more folks making the switch.
Hi Digital Mermaid, very informative video as usual, Thanks. the resistive throttle you showed may not be ideal for use near water and humid environments, look into a hall effect controller or similar.
Aye, a few folks have concerns about the pot near water, it's something I'll put more thought into.
A hall sensor is the way to go, I’m using this type and it’s working for more then 4 year without any problem
You need programming MPPT controls for recuperative charging. So as i know this motor controller has only recuperative braking without control efficient point of recuperation.
This is something I still need to dig into, but I am pretty sure it has a selector for how aggressive the regen is. If so, one of the many benefits of the arduino is that I can program it to auto-adjust the regen aggressiveness based on the current speed in water.
I really enjoy your enthusiasm (and your orange sweater looked better 🙂 ). I'm currently also converting a sailboat to electric but using the small 3kW golden motor. The sailboat is also used for regatta's and the boat is a lot smaller than yours. However, I doubt that you can regenerate significant amount of power from your propeller. If you try to turn the motor shaft by hand you already feel how hard it goes and there is not enough "grip" between propeller and water. A gearbox/reduction would certainly help. Most of the time you will operate the engine in the lower efficiency ranges. The torque is needed when you accelerate but once the boat is moving at the speed you want, you can take the rpm's back to save energy (and not operate the engine at optimum efficiency).
A 17" prop is a lot of surface area to apply a rotation to. :) However, it's all speculation until she's back in the water.
My feeling... complexity is eating reliability, too many parts.
I'm always open to suggestions of parts to remove. The helm controls being logic controlled is arguably not strictly needed, but it is for projects I have planned (the the helm controls will always override). Other than that, not sure what else could be simpler, but happy to hear suggestions.
I'm quite stoked for this project as well. Oddly enough I'm not interested in converting to electric at this time but I do find your project quite interesting. I can't wait to see progress and see the final numbers. Maybe you will convince me that this is the way to go when I get ready to buy a bigger boat and go cruising. Excellent lessons as always Madison, Cheers!
I'm very happy to hear that, Denis!
Please watch Kris harbour with his water wheel. He bought a similar motor with major issues with suppliers over rating the max output. That could be just 1500w in reality
Found the videos, will watch in a bit, thanks!
Have you spoken to SV Uma, they have so much data and experience for the last 5 years with a boat similar size to yours, they are on their 3 rd version. Also just to note rivers and canals in Europe mostly don’t have shore power for leisure craft
I follow them, but I have not spoken to them. I assume they must get a constant stream of emails / requests, and my channel is still really really small compared to them. So I do hope one day to chat with them, but I think I'll wait until I've grown the channel and/or gotten further along in the project. I don't want to bug them (or anyone else, really). Are there marinas where I could pay to recharge along the rivers over there? Well, I do plan to have a diesel generator for emergencies, but oh I'll be doing everything I can to avoid using it...
@@TheDigitalMermaid not really accessible for sail boats, around Netherlands you have more chance especially along mast up routes, coastal marinas are set up as that’s what we all use. SV UMA had a lot of motor data a few years ago including regen data. The lack of shore power on inland rivers etc is what is stopping canal boats etc with would otherwise be ideal and this is unlikely to change as no river side or canal side infrastructure to do this. Also over here you need to de rate your solar by about 50% for daily average and late in year you will have basically none, we have 300 watts and have had basically nothing for the last 6 weeks
@@davidwright6950 Solar in the winters here is also basically useless. I know that my 1.5 meter keel is going to block me from some rivers/canals, and I suppose when that happens, I'll just have to find some boaty folks interested in taking on a nerdly visitor for a trip around the local canals. ^_^
@@TheDigitalMermaid you would not think it but 1.5m is an issue on most of the European inland nowadays, we planned to go down the French system to the med but we hearing that this is now not easily and we are lifting keel and draw 900mm with it up, the issue is that it’s mostly ok in the middle but you cannot get to the bank, UK canals can take quite some time to progress as locks really slow you down, you can easily get hire boats to have the experience though.
@@davidwright6950 Aye... I'm coming to realize how the keel will limit me. Well then, so it is. It will be an excuse to try to make new friends who can take me on their canal boats, perhaps in exchange for taking them on some open water sails. :)
Thank you for making these videos. I dont watch them as often as i should. Simply because my focus is more on building batteries for now. But these technical videos teach me quite a bit, things to consider in a design phase.
I'm happy when folks watch at all, so thank you. I'm really happy you learned something from 'em!
that's a beastly motor!
if you can get the controllers to go open-circuit on the output then you'll probably find there's effectively no power lost in spinning the motor, so you could likely just have both motors permanently connected via belts and simply select which one is active through software. the other one will free-spin. without a load on it the only energy needed to spin the shaft is to get it up to speed and then overcome friction in the bearings. try it - short all six of those wires together and spin it by hand, that's the difference between open circuit and a controller that's actively trying to get energy out of the motor as regen
going to be interesting to see what regen is like on a boat, it never occurred to me that you could do it. are boat propellers efficient "in reverse" like this? in cars it works well since you have a solid mechanical connection to the road surface and they're always intentionally trying to shed energy because of braking. i wonder how it would compare to a small wind turbine, wind->power rather than wind->sail->water->power?
looking forward to seeing more :)
I've had a few comments now suggesting that, if I can set it to freespin, the drag will be nominal. It'll certainly be something I experiment with!
The prop I've chosen has a neat setup where the blades "flip over" 180 degrees, so they have a pitch designed for optimum forward motion, so when you go astern, they flip over, giving you optimal pitch for reverse. This means they're also the optimal pitch when doing regen. It's a brilliant setup! The link to the prop is in the description, and the company has videos showing how it works. If you lock the prop shaft, the blades with feather to minimize drag.
you should fix the old one with an contrasting yarn and possible embroidery. Very modern.
Hahaha, I am many things, but modern isn't so much one of them... Well, says the lady making an electric boat... =/ :p
The insurance was the last thing I'd thought would be a problem for you. Did they state the exact objection to the electric drive?
Nope, no opportunity to discuss, simply a flat "no".
Efficiency for regen might not be too great. I looked at using aircraft props as wind generators but the twist of the prop is optimised for thrust not power extraction. Might not be quite as critical with hydrodynamics but it is totally useless for aerodynamics.
Unless you have a lot of deck space for panels I would only assume that panels will look after the ancillaries.
One of the reasons I chose the prop I did (link in the description if you want to see more technical details) is that their blades flip over 180 degrees. So they've been able to design them for optimal efficiency in one direction, unlike most other props. They don't care about efficiency in reverse because the blades just flip over. I'm really hoping that's going the help with the regen, but it's all theory until I get in the water.
You mention that the efficiency loses at lower speeds is just gone, while yes it's not being used to move the boat it doesn't just disappear. Think about where you can use the efficiency loses, read as HEAT, Hot Water!! Would it be more efficient to heat your hot water with the loses rather than an actual water heater?
So I didn't talk much about cooling in this video, but you'll notice both the motor and controller are liquid cooled. ;) The plan is to run each motor and controller to a dedicated radiator, with the heat ducted out the exhaust behind the captains seat. For colder whether, redirecting that into the cabin is absolutely something I'm planning to play with. :)
Many devices made for sea use are specially treated with sealed circuit boards , one splash of sea water will kill them. All of your lcd displays for your should be sealed completely against sea air. There are industrial computers and keyboards made for industrial environments . I have used them in my designs and they are great.
Tinned copper and conformally coated circuit boards, yup. I plan to add a spray-on conformal coating to everything exposed when I am done.
Don't forget to add the charging/discharge losses to the equation.
Absolutely, though it was a bit beyond scope for this video.
You are not considering drag in water and wind resistance if head on. Real conditions will be different from a pre-calculated solution. I think you need to install some stuff and go out and test it and then make changes.
Did I not mention a few times "flat calm" as a qualifier to these numbers? I spoke about wanting to have the 10kw, and possibly even paralleling with the 5kw for 15kw, specifically to overcome strong real world conditions, like headwinds and currents. I also talked about exactly needing to get on the water to start putting this theory to the test...
Check out the following idea: Have both 10kW and 5kW motors permanently coupled to the shaft. For high cruising speed the 10kW should be the driver and the 5kW spinning freely. The "penalty" here will be the friction losses of the 5kW motor transmission and those of the idle spinning motor,* i.e. electrically disconnected. For getting down to 5kW "eco" mode the 10kW motor will still be the driver, but now the 5kW has now assumed the role of a generator. Doing so, you will have the 10kW running at high efficiency while recuperating the extra power. The penalty here consists of the mechanical and electrical efficiencies from the shaft to the batteries (transmission + generator efficiency + conditioning for battery charging). It goes without saying that by adjusting the generator point you can have the 10kW running at its most efficient point. The "bonus" mode will be when the 5kW motor gets switched to driver too. (*) In my language (Greek) this would be called a "crazy" motor after the technical term of crazy pulley - τρελή τροχαλία. Nikos
Friction losses is why I originally didn't want to parallel them, though I'm starting to think, based on comments, these losses might be very small... If so, paralleling them all the time would be back on the table.
@@TheDigitalMermaid Dual motor EVs often let one motor spin idle when there's no need for the extra power and don't suffer much from the friction. I'd be more concerned about breaking a bolt or chewing up a thread if you need to swap belts around much. The less you touch the mechanics the longer they will last, and you're not going to want to be doing this in a storm (i.e. the longer YOU will last).
Besides, with both motors in parallel, one can be driving the boat while the other is in regen, so you can charge the batteries at the same time... Oh, wait. :)
Nice to know that the recent trip home could have been done with the post-conversion boat! And given the engine failures, with a lot less stress.
Excellent video and explanation, as usual. Your channel is unique (and refreshing) in letting us peek inside your head on the decisions and what goes into them.
One concern about free-spinning the inactive motor is mechanical wear, also, if the drag is otherwise low enough to make it worth it... The trip home on electric is still theory for now, but I would LOVE to repeat the trip, possibly in reverse, just to prove it can be done, and silence many of the nay-sayers.
... or fail and be a great cautionary tale to arrogance. ;)
@@TheDigitalMermaid when they free-spinning the inactive motor that motor is usually not a permanent magnet motor as they don't like to be free-spinned but a AC motor that can do that without any problems. Dual motor EVs usually use different typ of motors front and back. Your Tesla is a good example of this setup.
Just had another thought - if anchored in moving water you would be able to regen charge overnight too.
In theory yes, in practice no, probably not. You need a solid 4 knots or more to get any real power out of the system, from what I can gather.
Looks like some interesting thinkings coming up I will be watching 👍
Yay! ^_^
Sorry?! That was riveting from beginning to end!
Awe, thanks MK, I'm happy to hear that.
The efficiency of the electric motor drops with a decrease in voltage and an increase in current, since resistive losses in the windings increase.
Makes sense.
A couple of notes.
1. The variable resistor is not ideal due to sea water, it wil get corrosion and possibly get wrong readings, maybe look into hall effect sensors (or a hybrid of both).
2. Please don't only trust in one arduino, please make a redundant system (or a separate monitor system that cuts power in case of an abnormally) (same as traffic lights...) (preferable a other controller than you are using as main controller, so maybe a esp32 or a RPI)
3. For control handels look into a 3D printer with wood filament, you can sand it, treat it just like wood
4. (i don't know if you where planning to do this) but i don't ever cut power to the controller due to starting issues, communication issues... you apparently can as seen in the kelly datasheet but make sure that the contactors A. are rated for the currant and B. MAKE absolute sure that they can handel the big inductive and capacitive load when engaging the contactor and charging the caps in the controller
5. Thank you for using a good old belt system in stead of clutches (there are losses in clutches)
6. Please don't put the LiFePo4 batteries on there sides (it is technicality fine but still) (if it is specifically mentioned in the datasheet you could do it)
7. I didn't understand how you are planning to control the 5kw motor (2 controllers or 1) please use 2 separate controller because the controllers will learn how the motors react and will get very confused if you switch between the motors.
Ooooooh, detailed comment, I love it! Let me reply in kind.
1. From what I can tell (and I'll recheck the specs after this reply), it's tinned so corrosion should be minimal. That said, this is a very very good point I need to consider more deeply.
2. I was thinking of stealing a concept I've read about in space travel, where they have three devices (so three arduinos) receiving the data, so that if one disagrees, it's ignored. Obviously that level of fault tolerance is a "down the road" project, but given how critical throttle input is to safety... This said, there will be an emergency stop button at the helm (which is actually part of the new ABYC regs).
3. In my previous life, I was a (am a) hoobyist woodworker. The desk you see in the video is one I made (with the help of my teachers). So using wood is as much a chance to merge two hobbies in this project. That said, I can see how your idea would work great, and probably be easier/faster. For me though, I'm actually stoked to make the handle... Probably mock it up / refine it with something simple like pine, then build the final one in a nicer wood.
4. The LittleFuse contactor I chose (specs in the description) is rated for 400A, and are rated to withstand 1000v with a greater than 50mOhm resistance at 500v.
5. The losses in the clutch is almost equally important in why I didn't want to use them. I am trying to design this system for as efficient operation / longest range I possibly can get.
6. I'll double-check the specs, but I believe side-mounting the EVE LF280K is supported. My main concern originally was minimizing spill of one blew it's pressure vent, but given ABYC requirements, I'll likely be designing some sort of catchment in the battery boxes to handle this, regardless of orientation.
7. Two separate controllers. The goal, for redundancy, will be to have complete separation between the two, including separate cooling. Running in 10kw, 5kw or both will be managed in the arduino software.
I agree on this coming from an industrial enviorment with my experiance drives and plc programing inoure very wet paper plant.
I'd use an 3 channel encoder ABZ and calculate the position via count up/count down register to give what speed you want output nd send that to the drive.
@@TheDigitalMermaid thanks for your reply,
2. love to see that 3 is even beter (just keep in mind that i don't like to use 2 of the same for the reason if there is a manufacturing fault in one of them the other one wil also probably have that)
3. love to see that i have seen that you where in to woodworking (so am i sometimes if i have the time for that) but i am not so great at it that i can make a nice handel so i use the tools that exist to help me..
4. I overlooked that in the description, my bad. They do look very nice just don't forget/misplace the flyback diode :)
6. I think indeed that it should not be a problem
7. perfect i just didn't catch it in the video (probably my bad)
@@tommussington8330 those are really nice but very expensive last time i checked, they are also a pain in the ass to program with arduino... (its possible that you can find a library that i don't know of...)
@@thomasdesloovere4200 Dude, after those little spark-fests, the role of diodes are kinda literally singed into my brain. haha
A brand new Tesla model 3 has all of the parts needed for your project with ten times of the power at the same cost 😊
Sadly, not at all the same cost, given I saved a lot DIY'ing the build. More though, I don't need that much power, and most of the model 3 still use high voltage and cobalt based cells
is it possible for a boat to have a wind generator and dump extra energy to another bank if need ? heavy but when no sun then wind wins
Yes, but it's not practical in my opinion. The power curve from a wind generator is very steep, and the window where they make rated power and when they need to be braked to avoid over speed is quite narrow. I've spoken to several folks with wind generators, and the output never really seems worth it. The reason I'm going so in on hydro generation is that over-speed is all but a non-issue, because the hull speed of the boat sets an absolute upper limit. So I'd rather not have the wind generator shading solar panels or taking up storage space.
Can u charge by anchoring in the middle of a flowing river?
In _theory_ yes? In practice, very unlikely. You need 4+ knots to get things moving enough to generate any usable amount of power.
Talk with Sailing UMA. They converted years ago and I bet they know which insurance companies to go with.
I'd love to chat with them someday, but at this point, I suspect my channel is too small, and they probably get an endless stream of emails and requests. So, someday, but I worry I'd just be annoying if I reached out now. :)
@@TheDigitalMermaid I am sure they don't care how big or small your channel is. Hit them up, I bet they would love to let you pick there brains.
i'm still watching. it's a long tunnel, but i think i see a weak light at the end. you are making progress!!
you may have said some where in the past but i'll ask here. what prop is on the boat now? from what you described as your method of operation, having/buying a feathering/folding prop won't allow you to charge while sailing. i did go to the website for the prop you are looking at and it says it can be used for that charging. it must be a magic prop. (lol) i also noticed they don't start giving numbers for charging until the boat speed is at least 5 knots. maybe that is when the magic begins.
my first prop (3 blades fixed, 16 x12 cupped) would not start turning under sail until i reached 4 knots. i have changed things since then and have not done enough sailing to notice (smooth & quiet now) if it still takes that much speed or not. the old prop guy in San Diego said the more diameter with less pitch gives best results. their math came up with a "28" number for my prop. diameter plus pitch. he said for a displacement boat (not planing), don't go over square (pitch & diameter the same or pitch larger than diameter. for me, the limit would be 14 x14).
i'm not saying don't buy that prop, but do study it well! it is a big investment and will be a major part of your overall plan. would be a shame if it did not live up to the hip.
btw, a free-wheeling prop is not nearly the drag of a locked prop.
The current prop is a maxprop 3-blade feathering 13". It's a great prop in great condition, and I'm hoping to sell it when the time comes to help fund the project. The new prop is a different kind of feathering prop (linked in the description, and follow to their youtube channel to see videos of how it works). In short, the blades flip over 180 degrees, so they can design the pitch for optimal forward efficiency. When you want to go astern, the blades flip over, so now they have the optimal pitch for astern motion. This is the orientation they take for regen, also, meaning you can get optimal regen from them. if you want to feather instead, lock the prop shaft and they go into the 90 degree feathered position.
The main concern for me, is the noise and vibration. I was spoiled that my boat came with the maxiprop... I didn't realize that until I was sailing on a boat with a fixed blade prop, and I suddenly noticed a vibration in the cockpit and a weird noise. I asked the captain what it was, and he looked at me weird and said "that's the prop free spinning". After that, I was like oooookay, I never want a fixed blade prop! I was stoked to find the Ecostar given it can feather and do regen!
@@TheDigitalMermaid how does that saying go? "never say never, right? why do you think being a fixed bladed prop would be any worse than any other prop? have you ever had a tire out of balance? if so, you know it is not a nice ride, at least at some speeds. but because of that you won't quit using rubber tires will you? so, remember my comment about "smooth & quiet"? well, same fixed prop. it is just no longer hooked directly to the engine. i have a pillow block arrangement now that takes the thrust and are smooth as silk. plus no shaft alignment problems any more. from there a couple of u-joints and short shaft go to trans. engine is on soft mounts. different ball game.
your drive will be very similar to that. since you are planning to belt drive the shaft, the shaft will have to have a bearing on the end to take the thrust and support the shaft. using a bearing like this... catalog.amibearings.com/item/spherical-o-d-accu-loc-bearing-insert/centric-collar-locking-bearing-insert-ue200-series/ue205-16 the shaft will be centered perfectly. use the style pillow block of your choice. i use a couple of shaft collars (one on each side of the bearing on the shaft) to insure the shaft stays in place. be careful where you buy. some stores think they are made of gold. here is one priced right that i used... thebigbearingstore.com/1-concentric-locking-flange-bearing-uef205-16/
so you reverse the motor, blades perform for going backwards, then stay that way unless you stop the shaft from turning? how cool is that?
Microcontroller....
I think you can couple the 2 Motors to Prop Shaft using electric device, such as an A/C Clutch, so that you can swith between them on the fly.
Just my 2 cents..
Or even a one-way clutch. Power will flow from either operating motor, or both, if you choose to.
I'm certain I could, but I worry about adding more parts... A part that doesn't exist can't break. I suspect that I'll find that I'll run on the 5kw 90% of the time, and only switch to the 10kw rarely. If that's true, swapping a belt won't be a big deal. If I find myself swapping more often, then I'll revisit clutches.
To get good regen, a variable pitch prop is required to maximise the power produced. The equasion is half the area by density by velocity cubed. Water speed is critical.
Have you looked at how the Brunton Eco*star Autoprops work? The blades rotate 180 degrees
@@TheDigitalMermaid A/2 x d x V3 . The prop is important but double the area of the sweep and you get double the power production, double the water speed and you get 8 times the power production. The variable pitch just spins at an optimal rate to maximize generator efficiency at that boat speed. Most feathering props have adjustable pitch. With a displacement hull just adjust the reverse pitch to the most common hull speed to get suitable rotation speed for the generator. However that may be not the best pitch for reverse thrust. I admire your work but because boat speed is so critical for regeneration a faster hull design works much better also much more expensive.
Current ratings are for long runs of cable, not short runs. The manufacturer of the motor would have installed them in the motor. You need to place the controller next to the motor. Now, the cables that supply the controller must be much larger. I would recommend welding cable because it is very flexible, maybe 4/0. Test run your boat on your present prop and if necessary , calculate for another size prop. I would recommend getting the entire controller system from the manufacturer of the controller. Those anduino boards are not professional and will fail on the open sea.
Sort of, yes. I often use voltage drop calculators to figure the voltage drop over a given lenght/size of cable for a given run. I aim to stay under 2% drop, but if a run is tricky for some reason, I'll go up to 3% drop, but never more, and ideally much less.
On the prop; I need to get a new prop shaft to account for the new thrust bearings, and it'll have the taper and thread for the new prop. So comparing the 13" maxiprop to the 17" Ecostar is not really on the table I'm afraid. As for the arduino; I hinted at this in the video, but didn't go into detail; The atmega is to get started. The longer term plan is to move to a proper pic on a proper circuit board. The arduino is great for this early stage work.
Thanks , this is great ...Love it ....I am running my Fjord 30 Cabin , on 2 Haswing Ventura R 2600w 24v with 3 x 280 Ah 22kwh Lifepo4 Outboard ,one in each side and is installing a 6000wOutboard Epropulsion in the middel 51,8v 238Ah 966 cells Li-ion 12kwh (34 kWh Total) , that i had laying around from , my 350 Rib projekt ...for now i have a 200hps Verado in the middel ...
That sounds like a hell of a setup! Should make close quarter manoeuvring a lot easier!
Hi ,TDM ..I have corrected the battery size ,it was wrong.
Close quarter manoeuvring... Yes thats the fun part , for now , and canal sailing in copenhagen , i only use them in the open seas, in comb with the 200hps Verado.
I run 4 x 24 v chargers Variable 5-30A and 1x 51,8v 5-30A ,so i can charge , what ever place ,if the only have ex 230v 5-10 A ,then i can still charge ....With only the 2 Haswing Ventura is not enough , but i only want Outboards , because i live on my boat and in my boathouse ,so my boat is always in the water
Its very cold here and i wanna take of the motores in the winther time ,and keep them indoors ......
The way you do it, and with 100kWh is the best way to do it ,and you keep it simple , me too
....Happy new year ..@@TheDigitalMermaid
@@dangullik1 Happy New Year!
Is 100kw not a bit of an overkill? A windelo 54foot cat only has 54kw for propulsion and 6kw for house and that has 2 x 20kw motors or 27kw per motor
Overkill is best kill! Joking aside, and I hinted at it towards then end, but it might well be. I really really hope I can make it work, but I realize I may need to cut back some. If I do, well, I'll sell a couple off and use that to help fund other parts of the project.
@@TheDigitalMermaid well I’m really looking forward to your journey. It’s so exciting. I hate it when people say but what about the range blah blah blah. and I just want to yell… it’s a sailboat not a motorboat. There are a number of fully electric boats that’s crossed the Atlantic and some more than once. Diesel runs out that’s why people use it sparingly. On a sunny day you can refuel your electric boat in the middle of the ocean. I’m ranting 😂😂😂
@@iMcWatch EXACTLY! I think, with my setup, I'll have MORE effective range than a diesel equivalent, exactly because I can generate my own "fuel" on the go.
all of this sounds great theoretically - and it seems you have possibly plenty of redundancy - but what if's and they are likely to happen, jump up and bite your ass when least expected - will you have some kind of motion recharge besides solar, perhaps small wind turbine (might be irritating) or a small hamster wheel off the side of the boat to charge while on the move, in case something goes wrong, faulty battery, a bank of batteries stops charging, you use more power than expected, power drains etc
now the insurance things sounds way too limiting, look for inspiration in aviation, all aircraft are insured, including home builds, they are classed as experimental, surely there is something somewhere
can you imagine, someone converts their on grid house to off grid, sorry, won't insure because that's not normal, tell your insurance to drop dead, someone here will assist i'm sure
Oh, you plan for everything, and then get bit by the one thing you overlooked, which always feels so obvious in hindsight. It is "The Way". The two main sources of charge will be solar and prop regen, with (eventually) a small diesel as a last-change fall-back. Wind doesn't seem to be worth it, given the space it takes, the shading it causes and the fact that it only generates decent power at near-max speeds (after which you need to brake it).
Insurance is a pain in the ass, but I am trying my level best to "Do It Right". I'm already working every thread I can pull, and in the end, I only need one to bite. Insurance for boats seems to be the most restrictive and limited for whatever reason.
@@TheDigitalMermaid i wondered whether you might build a RAM (ram air turbine) same as fitted to aircraft, but guess the fan you will be fitting doubles up, which i know little of - apart from the direction 'Anzio??' pods on larger shits
@@patchmack4469 I know nothing about ram air, but I have to assume that by the time the winds get to a point on a sailboat that ram air is effective, charging my batteries is probably the furthest thing from my mind... lol.
1300 lbs. battery weight wont be a factor. Your diesel engine was half that. Your fuel made up most of the rest of the weight. its close enough that I do not think its gonna be an issue for your boat. Remember to load balance so you do not hobby horse. when you build your arch the added weigh needs to be added to chain locker area. Adding 2 house banks near the Bow cabin/ anchor locker area can balance the difference a bit. so maybe even another water tank up near the bow might be needed. Again balance the weight you add on for solar arch with weigh at same spots on the bow accordingly.
Aye, I was trying to think it out, and I got to the point where I realized "just do it and see". Hobby horsing is another concern, too. I'll get her in next summer (I hope!) and then I can just try and see how she handles, and move things around to see if I can get her nicely balanced or not. The idea of moving the packs forward is that it would replace the ~150 liter water tank, making it about a wash for weight distribution.
@@TheDigitalMermaid How about wiring the batteries as a pair of very long / skinny batteries that run along the fronts of the settees, under the seats? It would distribute the weight linearly, low and near the center of gravity. Just thinking outside the (battery) box.
I considered that, and it was actually a design I tried in the very early days. In my boat though, the interior space is _tight_. Losing space in the main saloon is a very hard thing to justify.
Look again at the torque vs efficiency graphs at 25:00.
The 10kW motor's efficiency peaks at 12N.m.
The 5kW peaks at 6N.m, but there's a trivial difference vs 12N.m.
The efficiency (see ~13:00) goes up as the shaft speed goes *down*. But, surely lower speed over water implies lower prop RPMs, which implies a *lower* motor shaft speed?
ISTM the higher efficiencies either need a smaller boat or a bigger propeller?? ISTM those graphs in no way reflect the real world performance with a fixed size / fixed feather prop.
Perhaps equates to a high RPM with the prop mostly feathered, but would you run the prop that way???
If you had 2x 10kW motors, but one of them had a drive sprocket twice the diameter, wouldn't that 10kW motor would be in its high efficiency torque output at half the prop torque?
So when I was talking to Brunton, and I sent them the dimensions and told them about the electric conversion, I said that I had not yet set the pulley ratio, and that I could do so to suit their recommended RPM. They included that (peak of 1200rpm) and recommended the 430mm prop (three-blade feathering). The details are linked in the description.
All you're talking about is stuff I've considered, but as much as I try to know how things will be before hand, it's all just theory. The real test will be getting in the water and just, going. Even post-launch, I could experiment with different pulley ratios, etc. I full expect to do a LOT of experimenting to find more ideal configurations. It's partly why I am so excited to get in the water as soon as I can. Nothing teaches you better that actual real world testing!
@@TheDigitalMermaidI should have realised - you don't do stuff half-hearted. 😂
Have you considered a toroidal prop?
Two Bit Da Vinci did a video - search for "genius propeller".
Doesn't feather, of course, and no idea if it's any good for regen.
I saw all the hype when it was first coming out, and I saw the guy who did the 3d tests. It's a tech I'll keep an eye on, but for now I'm favouring tried-and-true for the prop. :)
@@TheDigitalMermaidI've just seen an article on New Atlas about a contra-rotating Shannon prop. Of course, it doubles the price of their single-prop device. 😱
Article says "Sharrow claims that it patented props can improve efficiency to the tune of 30 percent more range, boost reverse thrust by 50 percent".
Is that the same as saying it's 50% better for regen????
No thank you. Till the end :)
? Not sure I understand :)
So two motors, one 10Kw and one 5Kw?
Yup, exactly. _Probably_ mostly one, or the other, but I think I can parallel them, if I find myself in a situation where I need more oomph.
I would bring a 2-3kw small generator that uses pump gas. a Honda or a generic depending on budget. That would give you with with 10 gallons around 40kw of charging. That would be your backup to backup.
The current plan is, before I start travelling, to try to rig up a single cylinder 8~12hp air-cooled diesel to a 60~100A 48v-native alternator, something like the Balmar 60 or 100. Diesel gives you almost 2x the kw per liter of fuel, and I'll have diesel anyway for the hydronic heater and stove.
@@TheDigitalMermaidCould you use the diesel engine to power your 10kW motor in regen mode?
So, a) love your nickname! b) in the very early days of the project, I gave that a very real consideration. Also, considered installing a smaller generator where the engine is/was also. In the end though, I decided I'd rather the space for even more batteries. Go all in!
@@TheDigitalMermaid a) thanks! b), yeah, I meant the 8-12hp you mentioned. Can't wait to see you rip out that big old diesel.
Leather elbow patches, pllease.
My late grandpa was a librarian for much of his life, and I remember him having sweaters with leather patched elbows. So I kinda had that idea already, as a kinda nod to him.
Welcome to Phase 3, prost!
Prost! 🍹
The idea with 2 motors of different sizes is amazing, great work!
I am really really excited to do both comparison testing, and parallel testing. It's going to be so much fun!
Also, consider getting a proper, automotive grade microcontroller, arduino board will die when it smells saltwater. I would be happy to help with getting it going if you want.
@@alexpyattaev Andrew and I are planning, when the design is done, to make a custom PCB. If/when that happens, it'll be beefed up and tinned, conformally coated, etc.
@@TheDigitalMermaid Sounds like you got the basics covered! Just make 3-4 of those boards =)
Absolutely, I'll have a generous spares kit.
I enjoy watching your videos! What a project! I'm an electric boat enthusiast myself, but with smaller dingies in fresh water during summer in Norway. I currently use a Golden motor X10 (6.5KW), and it has been running great since I got it a year ago. As this is a mobile setup, I decided to switch from Lifepo4 48V pack to a 14S NMC battery build to save some weight. I'm aware of the more aggressive chemistry, so everything is built sealed in a water tight box. My pack lost almost 10KG and I gained 70% more juice for longer runtime. Obviously no solution for a wooden sailboat, but if solid state batteries get mainstream, you can potentially get three times more dens than with Lifepo4.
In my mind, the real goal is for someone to understand the pros and cons of the available choices. If someone understands the concerns around NMC, and chooses it anyway, all good. I wouldn't do it, but then, I'm doing stuff others would never do. In the end, we're having fun as safely as each of us can. :)
"well, you wont think twice, you'll be dead very quickly, but I digress" but what the heck? what issue does the insurance company have with the conversion?? Just the unknown?? and btw, love the music :)
Just the unknown, is the best I can guess. They didn't ask any questions, just a flat "No". So I assume it's a policy concern.
HOWdy Madie <
WONDERFUL seeing YOU this Monday MORNING ...
Thanks for POSTING
COOP
the WiSeNhEiMeR from Richmond, INDIANA
...
Howdy, Coop!
Yay keep figuring 😊
heh, in a way, "keep figuring" is kinda the motto of the project. :)
Love your channel. I had roughly the same sized diesel engine in a Gemini Catamaran but with a leg like an inboard/outboard. The leg is not made any more and the parts are getting hard to find so I swapped it out for an long leg outboard a few years ago. I have warned my wife that next time I would really like to go electric. Hopefully by then long legged affordable electric outboards will be available.
I think you're referring to "Sail drive" type motors, eh? I've seen plenty of electric sail drives, if so. Electric sailing is a young tech, but it's evolving FAST. By the time you need to look at a repower, the options should be a lot more that today.
@TheDigitalMermaid The difference with a typical sail drive is for my boat the engine needs to be raiseable like an outboard or a inboard/outboard leg. The Gemini 105M can pull up its rudders and centreboards and get into 18" of water which lets us poke into places on the coast of BC that we couldn't in our previous boat a Catalina 30'. Torqeedo outboards were around when I repowered but way out of my price range but yes, prices have been dropping and more options are coming all the time. Thank you for all the information you provide during your learning experience.
@@mngbennett Aaaaah, I see now what you mean. Wow, 18", that's shallow!
@@TheDigitalMermaid Other owners beach the Geminis but I think I would only do that in an emergency. I am looking forward to the your solar arch. That is on my list of to do's. I just built a light weight version using canopy parts and it is good enough for 4 100 watt panels but I want something sturdier that I can also use to lift the dinghy.
@@mngbennett The solar arch is something I've got a vague plan for but I'm not diving into in details yet. I'm waiting to see how to balance of the boat is after the batteries and motors are in, to get a feel for how miserly I need to be with the weight.
This is very exciting. :)
May your fun on this project far outweigh the headaches.
The thing about building stuff is that, no matter how frustrating it might be at times, when it works it makes all the hassles totally worth it!
Hi Maddy, great to see you havent lost your spirit, after the sailing home adventure haha. Very interesting and challenging what your about to do. Great to see your enthousiasm. Nice sweater by the way!
The trip home removed any lingering doubt, to be honest. It was when I finally got to see the reality of extended travel and living on a boat, and I LOVED IT. Even with all the problems, my drive is redoubled after that trip. Thanks for the kind comment, and the sweater IS AWESOME!
Ready for Phase 3
Same Don, same!
Teak or Mahogany.
Teak would let me match the toe rails and other brightwork, which is why I want to use it if I can swing the cost.