We are now in the timeline where Bayonetta is an apathetic sociopath written by someone who thinks they know what "cool" is, and Kratos is a genuinely caring man who only wishes the best for his family and for the bloodshed to end. I'll be damned.
The only new thing on Kratos is the bloodshed part. The whole point of post GoW1 kratos is that he's so consumed by guilty and despair that he closes himself to the world and laches to anyone who messes with him.
@@just_matt214 Technically you are right, as the game starts in media res, he jumps off the cliff then it fades to prior point in time, and the game begins, so the game circles back to it. It was, and still is pretty well done lol.
I wish Singularity was a Bayonetta from a multiverse where she was born bald, and therefore powerless. She devotes herself to science and discovers the multiverse, where every other version of herself is a magical badass who fights with her hair. This causes Bald-onetta to lose her mind and try to merge all of the multiverses into her own so she can be the cool one
Imagine traveling back to 2017 right as Woolie and Pat finish watching the original reveal for BAYONETTA 3 and telling them that not only will they not enjoy it, but they will literally be cited in news articles as the voices of a disappointed fanbase.
In essence, the conclusion being arrived at is that a simple story doesn't necessarily make it bad, nor does complexity add depth. Execution is of greatest priority. A well seasoned lemon chicken breast is magnitudes better than a chaotic gumbo of every ingredient in your fridge. DMC may not have complex plot threads, but the motivations of the characters are simple and therefore easy to communicate to the audience. Bayonetta, by contrast, wants every emotion, plot twist, and setting simultaneously... And becomes a tedious, tangled mess as a result.
Also, most importantly, the gameplay fucking rules. Despite the many flaws with DMC4, at least the gameplay was fun, with narrative cohesion and cool setpieces that didn't feature completely different gameplay for zero reasons. Story flaws can be waved if the gameplay and level design deliver. Turns out this game has none of those
I feel the simplicity of the of DMC's setup is also what allows it to have a suprising amount of nuance. Like I've seen really interesting think pieces come out of that final bossfight between Nero and Vergil and how it acts as confrontation on ideological level, that finally manages to convince Vergil to set aside his pride and lay the obsessive quest for power to rest. Or just how much of the mechanical language of different characters' fighting styles reflects and enforces their personalities and motivational behaviour.
@@jondoe7036 Right? Between purging his nightmares and, in a way, accepting his humanity again, that final fight in DMCV was the over the top action game equivalent of a deadbeat dad realizing that he is, in fact, a huge piece of shit that cared about all of the wrong things in his life.
This is the best way to put it. As I was watching Woolie's playthrough i was thinking "They really came up with a cool dramatic scene and just wound up there regardless of how it works"
Man's literally dropped *"If you didn't like what we did, DO NOT PLAY OUR NEXT GAMES. We are very dedicated to this current direction for bayonettas story"* lol. Okay bud, will not buy bayonetta 4 understood. Or platinums next game probably for that matter. Maybe if it isn't neckchained to the switch.
To address the new choreographer question @ 1:14:47 Pat you are not wrong. As I pointed out in my Bayonetta 3 review, the choreographer for Bayonetta 3 is Koharu Sugawara who does more contemporary/modern/hip-hop influenced dance and is more prominently known for being a kpop choreographer rather than the previous choreographer who did Bayonetta 1 & 2. I've known of and about Koharu for years (back when she was dancing under Rino Nakasone, a very well known Japanese dancer and choreographer who is heavily influenced by Michael Jackson). When I saw her name in the opening credits of Bayo 3, I definitely noticed the style difference in this Bayo's dancing as Bayo 3 is doing popping, snappy footwork (esp. in the ending credit Inferno dance), and her overall dancing is sharp, quick, and modern in comparison to the previous choreographer clearly leaning heavily into Voguing which is a more graceful style of dance that was rooted in fashion and model poses as inspiration for that dance style.
I think if the game ended with viola, Luka and bayonetta all fighting at once (in battle, not just cutscene), she didn't die and all the bayos/jeanne got restored, and told her that she earned the right to be an umbra witch rather than just replace her, that alone with boost most people's approval of the story by like, at least 30%.
Honestly if they dedicated more time to the games story outside of the last 8%, like explaining what the fuck was going on with Luka or giving Viola an arc of any kind, it wouldn't be SO bad But like . . . Fuck
Singularity is so fucking nothing, I would've much preferred all the prophecy shit is just an Evil Bayo that's super full of herself and girlbossing too hard, she gaslit herself.
I get that, but Pat's whole this is like 9/11 for the gay's comparison is a bit ridiculous. Like okay, this one character who you relate a lot to isn't gay and you thought they were gay. You've got three options at this point cope by denying it and making your fanfiction your own personal head cannon, seethe and continue to be salty about it, or grow up. The world doesn't exist to make you a self-insert character for everything imaginable under the sun. Take it from me a straight white male who's accepted that straight white men are on their way out the door when it comes to being portrayed as heroes or even being made into characters at all in anything for the sake of "diversity", but hey you could also just say I'm being salty about it as well as all the ists and the phobes that you wanna throw at me.
@@theprofesionalist7927 “straight white men are on the way out from being depicted as heroes”, my guy having more diverse protagonists doesn’t mean straight white men are disappearing from gaming. It means now there are more than 2 options for protagonists.
37:55 As soon as Pat says "10" Woolies mind assembles the puzzle and immediately takes Frenzy damage. 38:00 The Woolie upon feeling horror attempts to hide himself away from the Truth. Alas he cannot.
@@thelaughingrouge Woolie cannot get the idea of Luka as an Incel beta orbiter out of his head, and I love it. The sheer revulsion and disgust is just... *MWAH*
My problem with Platinum's internal storytelling team (when its not written by an actual experienced writer like in Nier) is that they try to pull a Gurren Lagann everytime so their sequels have to try and one up it. If they did not go for the alternate universes and expanded universe and reduced the scale then I feel like we'd be in a better place.
The fact their FIRST game starts with weird overlapping time travel shenanigans, while also introducing the entire world to you is mind boggling looking back on it. Itd be like if the first half of Gurren tried to also have the massive universal ending. It'd be so hollow and weirdly paced out. There's not a single story where bayonetta gets to go on an adventure that doesn't dramatically alter/invalidate her universe via some weird meta narrative. It's so weird man.
If you want a smart take on hot girl + goofus look at Jessica Rabbit. "What do you see in him?" "He makes me laugh." Translation: "I don't get why you're with someone I see as lesser." "It's not for YOU to get, I'M happy."
There’s actually internal logic for why Jessica Rabbit is with Roger. For Toons, being funny is what makes you attractive, moreso than your physical appearance, so Roger Rabbit is actually like Brad Pitt to the Toon population, which is why Betty Boop says Jessica is “a lucky girl” for landing Roger. Only Bob Hoskins thinks their coupling is weird. The only reason I bother bringing this up is because it’s one of my favorite details in that movie.
@@BareBandSubscription "For Toons, being funny is what makes you attractive" does that mean Jessica Rabbit is actually hideous for toons? She's not very funny
@@RoachDoggJR4200 Kinda-sorta. In a way, yes, because some toons genuinely believe he’s out of her league, but then she’s suddenly attractive when it actually services humor. Eddie (Bob Hoskins) isn’t a toon, so he just thinks she’s attractive and way out of Roger’s league. That movie lowkey has some great worldbuilding.
Ya know what's funny? The good folks over at OSP (Overly Sarcastic Productions) actually put out a video not too long ago breaking down what they (or more specifically Red) called The Multiverse Problem. While I won't go over everything their video covers I will say that practically ALL of the issues and problems with a branching time-line multiverse are present in this game. The way I see it the Multiverse was put into place to do the following. 1: Have a bunch of unique Bayo designs 2: Have a bunch of diverse levels in the game without having to do the heavy lifting of explaining how the characters end up in these locations 3: Retcon the plot and deliver a new status quo In the end what we ended up getting from this game was a ramshackle plot who's tone is all over the place and a passing of the torch story that not only didn't need to exist but was also done in the worst way possible.
Oh man Suzi's glasses are so big, I love them And Woolie's Christmas tree looks lovely behind him, really fills out the space Pat, you're doing your best.
I don't know if I want her for every episode, I love the vibe Pat and Woolie have by themselves, but I would not object to Suzi every month or two. Maybe get Gene back on now that his treatment's wrapped up too.
I think the implication with Rodin talking about Luka is that Rodin goes to hell regularly to kick demon asses. And thus can visit and TALK to Bayo and Luka
Yeah but at the same time a lot of people swear that killing Singularity "retconned" every death caused by him, so he could be actually alive? It's a mess, so it's hard to tell.
@@Mantis47 it's not. Killing Singularity couldnt Recon Luka and Bayo dying cause they died *after* Singularity was killed. Bayo died from getting finished off by Gomorrah, and Luka let himself be dragged into hell _with_ her. if they'd died *before* Singularity did, it'd be a case of "those killed by Singularity get restored" in a sort of "Singularity was trying to become an omniversal, omnipotent Observer, where Reality was what He decided, thus with him gone, his 'observations' were negated and undone" way. But they died *after* Singularity got killed, so they werent part of that "Singularity's 'truth' was made 'false'" collective.
Small thought, Kraken Bayo should have been Viola's mother. The lingering resentment/rage/whatever angst of her own mother is the Bayo that hands the title on to Viola, instead of one she's known for a few hours. Viola makes peace with her past by helping her mother find rest, and it's a somewhat meaningful Bayo to pass the title on. Also makes a bit more sense as to why the Kraken randomly attacks, it either slipped through with Viola, or it was searching for the lost daughter. Maybe another reason for Kraken to pass on to Viola as well, Bayo's contract gets passed on to the daughter.
I'm pretty sure Kraken Bayo is her mother. She and Singularity are from the same universe, where Bayo and Luka hooked up and then eventually died and became Dark Adam/Dark Eve.
I assumed Rodin saying “Your father will make a fuss” means that despite being in hell, Bayo and Luka are doing fine and are still in contact with Rodin. It also tells me that her death isn’t going to stick, and is more like Goku’s death at the end of the Cell saga
Madam Butterfly had a majority stake in Bayo's soul right? They seemed closer then Bayo's other contracts. I wouldn't be surprised that she just let's Bayonetta do whatever down there.
Which is still a really weird line as well because since when does Rodin give a shit about Luka's opinion? Is this the first time in the series that Rodin even acknowledges that he exists?
1:55:10 so what pat is describing here is actually a really important thing that basically every major form of media has fallen into the pitfall of, which is that human quickly become desensitized to things, *particularly* things they cannot personally relate to. When you see a huge universe spanning war explosion festival... It's meaningless. There's no person you can relate to or emotional connection you can make, because the perspective isn't about someone going through it but the thing happening. That moment in ragnarok hits so hard because you've seen the person's journey through the story and that's the culmination of the arc. Plus its told in a way that is actually ever so slightly the tiniest bit subtle and the game doesn't beat you over the head with the symbolism of it when the rest of the game is almost offensive in terms of going HEY DID YOU GET IT, DID YOU GET THIS THING. So yeah, its basically just a way more relatable moment cause its humanizing in a way that we are wired to empathetically connect to instead of just some big shitshow of flashing lights and colors that's meaningless to our monkey brains.
One of the really impressive things about DMC5 is that it manages to be About Family, with genuinely emotionally engaging stakes, even though the actual stakes are cities "everywhere" being consumed by a demonic apocalypse.
Can't help but feel that humanizing is ultimately just wasted on a character like Kratos, when they can't even have the story actually substantially address and confront what he had done, if they want to keep him grounded and relatable.
@@jondoe7036I mean Kratos wasn’t completely irredeemable until 3, and even then he showed signs of humanity with Pandora and the ending. A lot of what he becomes is his fault, but dude was screwed over from birth.
@@TigoODonnell Don't see how he would have been any better in 2 honestly; by that point he's already kinda in the habbit of crushing unlucky bystanders in between door hinges just to keep the door open. He may not be completely void of sympathetic qualities, but I would not call him redeemable by the tail end of the Greek saga. He does bunch of things that go well past the Moral Event Horizon on several occations. And yeah, he is a tragic character, both due to the circumstances he ended up in and his flaws as a person causing him to spiral further out of control. Twisting and stretching out his narrative, so they can let him live all the awful things he's done and been through down and give him a happier ending, defeats the whole purpose of the tragedy of his character for me.
And with Vergil and Dante dying. Vergil died hugging that one girl from Dmc4 SE dlc who is supposedly Nero's mom, she just runs in at the end and talks about fate or something and also dies.
A lot of people don't know that snatch and buster hard counter Royal Guard. The first time it happens you don't know it has a weakness, you're just paralyzed in fear.
When it comes to stuff like the triple bayonetta thing that completely ruins continuity, I think Platinum's biggest issue when it comes to story is that they want to have really cool and hype moments but don't do much work into building up or thinking about the implications of said moments. Like they hope that the spectacle is enough for you to not think about it but didn't realize the audience needed to think for a nanosecond for the moment to fall apart.
it pains me to say it but Platinum is getting uncomfortably David Cahje-esque in that sense. they have these cool moments and then they're like "how do we get to that" and just kinda incoherently fart through to it
They do have some explanation for those cool moments, it's just unfortunately only explained in bios and journal entries. In the bios they stated that the Bayonettas in 1, 2 and 3 all experienced the same events with very little deviation from each other's timeline.
I think thats true for 3, but previous Bayo games do at least try to build up to things adequately. Bayo 1 & 2 might not be told well, but they are leauges more invested in showing whats going on and the stakes for each encounter. They have stories. Fun ones even with themes and plenty of subtext to chew into after sometime to digest Bayo 3 doeen't have a story. It has a plot with stakes, but no narrative to go along with them until the last 8% of the game
@@diegomedina9637 seriously though what were they thinking? I just find it baffling how any writer could consider a scene like that. the Bayo stories were weird before and pretty messy but making Bayonetta into a fucking sociopath crossed the line for me
@@joedatius Bayo wasn't even the issue in that scene, it was Rodin. "Yo, look at this punk ass. Trying to go out there to find the bodies of his loved ones just to give them a proper bury or at least find out if they're even alive or death, pathetic"
I think one of the biggest failures with Viola from a gameplay perspective is that she doesn't feel _different_ from Bayonetta. She just feels like a worse version of the same character. There nothing that Viola can do that Bayo can't do better. Even her big gimmick is completely undermined by the fact that the Moon accessory has existed _since the very first game._ Whereas Nero feels VERY different from Dante. They have a good number of similarities, but Nero has a good number of gimmicks and mechanics that belong to him alone. Dante can't Ex-Act or Max-Act. Dante ain't got no Buster! So even from the beginning, Nero has his own _mechanical_ identity, and the fact that playing him offers unique benefits means that players don't hate being him. Whereas I spent every moment playing Viola desperately wishing I was playing as Bayonetta instead.
I dunno man, once you find out that Viola's block has Combo Offset properties, or that it can cancel out of the kick moves to give you more ways to transition into barehanded state, things get kinda crazy with her. I'd go so far as to say using Viola's block only to try and parry is like thinking that as Nero, Exceed is something you charge manually and has no clear flow into the rest of his kit. The block button stuff has the distinct feeling of unintended emergent gameplay compared to the more deliberately tuned Exceed system, but I feel they both have comparable levels of "if you think this is all it's good for, you ain't seen nothing yet."
@@shazbots7287 Maybe, but the OP's argument is more about mechanical identity than about mechanical power. Is "Block Combo Offsetting" really all THAT different from Dodge Offsetting? The closest comparison I can think of is Dante's Trick to Nero's Snatch, rather than Exceed, at which point fine but even if we take that to be enough what ELSE is there that isn't just Bayo but worse, which even Block Combo Offsetting can count as if you think about it?
They definitely tried to move the story too fast for introducing a new main character. This is only the third game and they are already going with multiverse ending stakes for a brand new character to deal with.
the only time I can think of where beating a boss with a character unlocks something for not that character is when you beat Beowulf with Dante and it upgrades the next boss battle with Vergil
That is true atleast technically though that is a good example of doing something like that right since it has a very clearly payoff and hype moment to make a rivalry more cool while Viola just gets shit all
@@joedatius also have to remember, Dante *beat* Beowulf, but it was _Vergil_ that finished him off, thus gaining Beowulf's power via Demon Rules. Beowulf fled from Dante, thus Dante "won" the fight, but Beowulf *died* at Vergil's hands, meaning Vergil gets the power-up.
@@Xenmaru00 yeah you're entirely correct. it certainly helps that both Vergil and Dante are badass in this scenario and its a relatively minor boss compared to Viola who this was her LAST boss and the last boss in the story along with being the one special kind of cool fight that everyone loves with it being the boss were you fight the long time protagonist. I mean for fucks sake she doesn't use witchtime on you. That feeling when the GOWR Heimdall fight feels more like fighting Bayonetta then Bayo3.
and a very important thing to say about that scenario is that then you proceed to beat Vergil and get Beowulf from him so it's still an upgrade for Dante at the end of the day
Like I've said before the story should've been about Luka. The "not so important goofball is actually extremely important and powerful" trope exists and would've worked just fine here. He could've been a descendant of super powerful fairy King Lukaon who along with his race of fairies, are introduced as another powerful force just like the witches and lumen sages. And now singularity is after him and his powers. Maybe he wants to kill him and take his powers or he wants to possess him and use them to conquer everything like a classic bad guy would do. With a story like that they could've properly fleshed things out and make better sense of Luka having his powers, the fairy race being introduced, and his relationship with bayo. The multiverse thing should've been saved for a whole other game. It's like they tried to mash two huge stories into one which definitely did NOT work out lol
Lukadon should have showed up to help during the various Strider fights and/or during the Singularity fights at the end of each world actively fighting or neutralizing them to better show that he was actively part of the story as opposed to the 2 scenes he’s in where he pretty much just gives exposition
Even if they were hellbent on multiverse, faeries being these special things that can move between realities is also a trope that they could use, but instead it's barely used for anything super interesting.
I honestly feel like giving Luka that sort of importance is the wrong approach. I feel that a better pair for Viola's parents is an unlucky Bayo, where things never quite work out just due to bad luck, but she's still just as capable paired up with a Lucky Tedd version of Luka. He's still slapstick, but his goofs and misteps end up landing him exactly where he needs to be at that moment.
BETTER YET? Cut Singularity and the homonculi out entirely. Within the plane of fairies situated in the UK, something goes wrong. *Horribly wrong.* Fairies all over the world go berserk, *including Luka.* Luka becomes the werewolf, and now you have a Fairy faction to fight against while Bayonetta and Co find out what's happening with the fairies. Fairy myths IRL sometimes touch on how immensely secretive the fairies are, and that most people that see one are either killed or taken in, never to be seen again, so you now have precedence for a previously untouched-upon faction just suddenly turning up out of the blue! Also in a series of ass-pulls, Luka being a descendent of fairies is just one of many, so I'd imagine it would be forgivable.
The 3 bayonetta's combined should have been their own character with their own gun because 1 barrel + 2 barrels + 3 barrels should have given us a god damned 6 shooter
I think Luka works as a pairing better if you pretend Bayo 2 doesn't exist. In Bayo 1 he gets some cool moments and has good chemistry with Bayo, and it's left ambiguous if Bayo sees Jean as a friend, family, or romantic partner. It's only in Bayo 2 where Luka becomes a complete joke and hanger on, while the game makes it very clear how close Bayonetta is to her "roommate".
And Bayo 1 and 2 are now confirmed to be different universes... And what does the Bayo from Viola's world looks like? Bayo 1. We literally just cracked the code.
Bayo 1 ends with Luka becoming more interested in her, so I knew something like this was going to happen at some point, but I was expecting for it to be more developed than what we fucking got in the game it goes down in I don't hate the pairing on paper, but they didn't even set any paper to write this shit down on
@@Dasaltwarrior The issue here was 2. He does nothing in 2 other than swing Loki out of the scene like once. God sometimes I wonder if 2 has the worse Story of the 3 games.
To me its not that Luka And Bayo pair is bad, its the way they went about it. There is no proper setup, Luka doesn't get to redeem himself to the audience as a competent equal or a clutch silver tongues dude. Makes no sense
As a bayo fan who grooms ten year olds while embodying an absolute f*ckstick of a personality: I feel vindicated for my actions and validated for my lifestyle choices. 😂❤ /s
@@soliduswasright678 Eh, wouldn't have been that surprising considering DMC4 was mixed at best and DmC was. . . Y'know Just surprising to see a Bayo game being described as "half baked" after 1 & 2 being so well produced
@@Dasaltwarrior I think the difference for DMC4 is that there are lots of high moments for the game and the combat in general is incredible also its story even though messy at points actually makes sense and doesn't do completely stupid things made to make fans upset. imagine if in DMC4 Dante was actually evil instead of what we got
What sucks the most is that these are people who love(d) the series, even through its flaws. They're supposed to be the target audience, yet this game manages to disappoint them in almost every way. It's soul crushing to watch them brainstorm dozens of different ways this could've gone in the span of 2 hours, while it seems no one in the dev room ever pointed these flaws out throughout these last 5+ years of production.
On the the topic of Enzo's wife, I recall Bayo and Rodan commenting on how good her casseroles are which implies they've interacted with her and presumably think more highly of her than Enzo. You'd think that there'd at least be cut to Bayo where she looks down with a troubled look on her face considering how her whole thing is she's stylish and confident unless it has to do with her past and her losing her family as she treats it more seriously.
The game is so obviously "DMC V was cool, let's copy that" that Rodin is doing Niko shit in his pizza stand van and instead of a motorcycle chainsaw weapon you get s train chainsaw weapon.
Bro you get a ranged weapon that takes the form of a A HAT, and if that wasn't enough they had a cutscene with a Michael Jackson dance joke in the same mission!
@@RahkshiMaster Let's be honest. Kamiya got to make is dream game and then the sequels got taken away from him. So he replaced it with bayo, a generally overall better game in most aspects and it flopped to Nintendo where the sequel was never gonna shine due to the Wii u and they need their own IPs to ensure a future and they only have 101 for that. If he's salty, I wouldn't blame him. The real question is did bayo1 take place before or after dmc4 because some of the savior's troops look like affinities and we're bug like underneath.
I really want to know what was going through Platinum’s brain when they decided “Let’s kill off Bayo and Jeanne and replace them with Bayo and Luka’s bumble-fucking idiot of a daughter. She’ll be the new Bayonetta going forward! The fans will love it!!!”
Honestly the daughter of Bayonetta completes them theme of the Bayonetta series. In the first game Cereza young self came to the future and started calling Bayonetta mother with Bayonetta having to take care of her, all while having chemistry with Luka (yes Bayonetta1 was pushing that). Second game Bayonetta went to the past and fought alongside her actual mother and father while taking care of an obnoxious teenager, Loki. Bayonetta having a daughter was the natural conclusion to go with for Bayonetta 3 when you're following the series' theme.
Actully, I kinda can see the logic in that. Bayo and Jeanne have very simular character archetypes and pre-establised dynamics. Platinum has made it very clear that they want do get out of being just the "Stylish action Dev". So, by replacing the Main character with somebody that has the opposite Energy could work. Like how Jojo Part 2 followed up the classic Noble figther of Jonathan with Joseph, who wins fights by tricks, cheating and even running away. The Biggest issue is that: A: Bayo as this super sexy and confident character was a huge appeal to the Fans, so replacing her with Viola, who gets plagued by Slap-stick, just pisses people off. And B: The change of characteristics could be shown in diffrent ways instead of making her look weak. Like, instead of a scene of Bayo walking through town looking like a Fashion Model 24/7, have Viola start her day in a shitty appartment, with unkept hair and looking terrible. Or her trying to act cool and seductive in a cutscene and failing complettly. Or beating a boss and trying to come up with a cool One-liner or witty line like Bayo only to not come up with one and just go "Oh fuck this, just drop dead!". Just anything that makes her still look capable and not like a tool.
This is like the third time this week I’ve heard Woolie say “depends on the skill of the Runner” in a real life non-sarcastic context and I really can’t believe this is a man who has never played a single Armored Core game.
The tripling down cements my idea that kamiya got more sway to do what he wanted along with his growing need to make his nero better and make everything bayonetta goes up against and gets way bigger but makes it the worst fan fiction ever invented instead
Secret missions in DMC show you the sick stuff you can do if you push your tools to their limit while secret missions in Bayo 3 are just to body Viola like Sora in a Cloudie McDoom skit....
When introducing Viola, I wonder if they were afraid and didn’t want her to seem too good or better than Bayonetta, but unfortunately went about it making her look like she just kinda sucked.
Yeah, one thing I've learned from torch passes is they seem to be better received when the new protag isn't instantly better than the old. Kiryu beats up Ichiban and Dante can handle way more than Nero for instance, but they don't overdo it to where they look like weak characters. With Viola they went too far.
@@shiningknight23 Well Nero actually ends up becoming just as strong if not a bit stronger then Dante by the end of DMCV but its built up and has an actual payoff meanwhile though Nero is never really shown to be incompetent even when compared to Dante since they both need large power ups just to fight Urizen
That's kinda the point? She's an untested amateur witch, it's in her in-game title. I can't remember where I hear it from but part of Viola's narrative purpose as a playable character is to showcase how exeptionally powerful and skilled Bayonetta is among all witches.
@@shiningknight23 Like, literally the first fight in DMC4 is for establishing, "if Dante had been a normal enemy, he would've died in this fight. Nero is strong. He's just not _Dante_ strong." And then he went through two games to earn that development before he became stronger than his predecessors. Not to mention the entire plot of DMC5 coming together to justify it within the framing of Vergil's plight.
Susie is great, hope she sticks around for more episodes. She gels really well with Pat and Woolie edit: hope shes on more to piss the people replying to this post off
I feel like another way Viola got shafted was how they took away her grappling hook after her DT moment making her aerial mobility more precise, but way slower. It would have been nice if she kept the grappling hook and embraced her Nero-ness for some great snatching and pulling combos.
maybe they thought a snatch-like mechanic would be too overtly ripping off DMC (even though other things are already that) but fuck that, they already nade her Luka's daughter, using a grappling hook in combat would've been the one cool thing to come out of that
When I got to that final Bayo fight, I genuinely thought the final unlock would be that Vio would get to use Infernal Demons and Demon Masquerade in NG+ and it still baffles me to this day that she didn't. I love the gameplay, but even as someone who genuinely enjoys Bayo 3, a lot of the narrative and gameplay decisions just feel weird...
oh my lord the fucking painful silence after Pat drops the time travel bomb about Cereza is hitting me in my core. "Looks like you can't say it's worse than The Third Birthday now"
Its been my experience that alot of babies that are well taken care of by their parents are usually pretty calm unless they're hungry, tired, dirty etc. This isn't a rule. But the parenting makes huge difference. ( edit:I know because I have 2 kids)
Crying is the only way babies can communicate. When they need something, whether it be food, or they are cold, or even if they just need attention and affection. If your infant is crying all the time then there is something wrong. If caring for their basic needs doesn't get them to calm down and crying just doesn't end, then you probably need to call your kids pediatrician.
I'm ashamed to say that back in the day I did skip DMC4 because of Nero, but literally only because of the box art. (This being the time before reading about products online was common, at least for a teen.) I saw Nero on the cover with no Dante and went "well I don't want to play a DMC game without Dante" and just didn't know what I was missing until SBF started playing them and talking about it.
Wow! I was in college when that game came out I remember always being aware that it was “A Resident Evil-like thing where there are multiple playable characters.” It has been so long, did that old back cover not explain that both Nero and Dante were playable?
Nah I’m not ashamed, Dante was and still is one of my favorite characters and the thought of this new guy trying to take the spot light really irks me, obviously I’ve come to terms with it and a transition, but Viola is just a shitshow.
They should’ve let viola have the Cracken that way she has a secondary weapon, and bayo would say this is your first official summon welcome to being a witch
@@RicochetForce sadly wouldnt work. Unlike DMC rules, you dont get a demon's power for beating them, there's a contract involved. its *Rodin* that is forcibly turning demons into weapons by beating the hell out of them, then using whatever technique it is he had, to seal their essence into a weapon. Viola's "contract" is with Cheshire, who is suggested to not so much be a demon but a Fae Spirit that inhabits the plush doll connected to the katana.
I know it's been said a bunch and it's totally unrelated to the topic, but geez Pat looks really good! Healthy and glowing and not just general ginger glowing either. Oh and yeah I agree with everyone else, bring Suzi on as a permanent host she's wonderful ❤️
Now heres the funny bit when they are talking about Bayo not looking behind her and bringing up saving Jeanne in Inferno and im like "Now how did Jeanne end up in Inferno in the first place? Cause Bayo wasnt paying attention behind her" So I guess theres your one for the series before 3.
The thing about that was that bayo had no reason to doubt gomorrah wouldn't be under control. An unexpected equipment malfunction is different from just not double tapping an enemy and being off gaurd.
I mean she sent it back and it came back out again instead, broke free from her control, and then roared loudly without her command I find it hard she wouldnt notice given how honed her senses usually are.
@@azure98 i think the thing is that since she wasnt using the Demon Slave technique, in 2, a "normal" summoning locks the caster in their summon pose till its over. We see her slap a Beloved's hand away in B1, but that's *all* she does, and she immediately returns to her pose. Bayo was effectively in an animation lock, and Jeanne was fast enough to react to the Portal *still being open*. we also have to take into account the breaking of the contract, was likely enough of a shock that Bayo, not seeing what was *actually* going on behind her, felt the contract break, had a "wait what the fuck was that feeling?" moment, and *then* heard the roar, *just* exited Animation Lock, and would not have been able to react in time to not take a fatal blow. Its also possible that the instant of a contract breaking, weakens an Umbra (who are *still* human, thus likely suffer some level of backlash other than "demon kills/eats them") severely, for a brief time. Her senses may be honed as hell, but there were *many* external factors in play, firing off all at once, that could have either muddled her detection ability, overloaded her senses for a moment, or even simply caught her off guard in a way she'd not been for *years*.
There were a lot of reasons to assume everything got reset. Enzo's family is back alive and New York got restored (we know that is the same universe from the start of the game). Bayonetta 1 and 2 got erased before, Singularity said so himself, and yet they are back during the fight. The other Bayonettas and Jeanne coming back during the fight, they all got erased before. Also, as far as I remember, no Bayonetta but Cereza got dragged into hell, they all got absorbed by Singularity. No red grabby hands. So there is no reason to assume they didn't get restored as well, same with Jeanne. Of course, the ending is so damn unclear that there are arguments against this as well (why doesn't Jeanne mentor Viola if she is around), but it is not a stretch to assume so either, so I don't know where Pat gets his confidence from.
From what I understand, the Bayos all coming back for the Singularity fight in space is because he absorbed all the Arch-Eves for power, so when Bayonetta beat him up it cracked his armor and released all their souls. But since their souls then fade away after they get some good hits in I don't think them coming back to life is a reasonable assumption to make from that scene. Especially since they were in Jeanne's home universe at the time and she fades away like the rest.
Pat has a tendency to come to a conclusion and then proceed to ignore all evidence to the contrary because he's decided he's right. I don't think he's even conscious of it.
I miss the time stop thing Woolie used to do when he would tell you when to skip ahead in the spoilercast. Now you gotta guess if it'll be 30 mins or 2 hours.
Seriously, Woolie should stream his Ragnarok playthrough. Maybe bring Reggie along if he played the first one, or better yet, get some new guest character. (Suzi didn't stream on her end apparently, so maybe kill 2 birds with one Axe throw)
I think woolie rather stream with his buddy Reggie than have to probably set up a camera and worry about audio/video delays when he can just invite a person into his own home
@@violetshadowstone5250 Oh right, Suzi lives in the states. Shame, but good ol' Reggie works just fine. (I didn't suggest Pat cause he already finished Ragnarok)
Listening to this on the podcast was honestly one of the most cathartic experiences around all of Bayo 3. The more you think about how it all ended up and how Kamiya is seemingly so dead set on sticking with the new narrative direction it just feels like a fever dream so hearing incredibly passionate and well informed people acknowledge the madness is so nice.
The raw Pessimism regarding Platinum in general is hard to watch. At this point, I somehow would not be supriced that we will not even get a Bayo 4 at all, before Platinum gets bought/dissolved.
How to please the Bayo 3 players, in 3 easy story edits: 1. Don't kill off the main cast. 2. Have it revealed that Viola was conceived via a threeway between Bayo, Jeanne, and Luka. Then give them funny flirtatious dialogue w/ each other that's light & campy. 3. More tits. More ass. More dumb sexy fun. It's frigging Bayonetta - ACT LIKE IT.
hell I don't even mind Jeane being nerfed to shit if they did it right like DMC5 did V is a weaker version of vergil but still has unique gameplay too it and not just plain nerfing it to shit.
I feel Luka being Strider could have been acceptable if it was SPECIFICALLY Viola’s dad Luka who Singularity forces to take part in world destruction just to fuck with Viola who he knows is out there which would maybe give Singularity some much needed villain power and would make Viola’s fight against him way more emotionally resonant. Or hell any other option that kills the idea that Luka (the character who is supposed to be cool without world ending powers) needs to be equally as weird as Bayonetta…
I thought it was weird where right after we see Bayo getting horribly stabbed/fisted and shrug it of. You then see then see Jeanne stabbed with a sword, and she dies. It was such a weird framing device to have those scenes right next to each other.
Did Kamiya really say that thing about fixating on one aspect of a character? There is a famous anecdote about his backlash against removing her glasses. Come on.
Feels like the wait for the next game will be shorter going off of whay Kamiya's been saying, but we've been waiting on that Ultra man send up game for like 5 years now so who the hell knows
Continually amazed at Pat's inability to pronounce Jeanne's name correctly despite the game and a fellow French speaker constantly pronouncing it the official way.
The combination of the story getting in the way with how bad it is and the switch choking to death on the game constantly really dragged this one down.
(edit: I guess it is actually vague enough for different interpretations) I'm annoyed that people still forget that the reason Cereza was in Bayonetta 1 in the first place was part of Balder's plan to rewrite Bayonetta's history and have her awaken the left eye of darkness. There is no split timeline: the Cereza that goes back in time BECOMES Bayo 1 Bayonetta. If Cereza went to a different timeline then there's no reason for her to be in the story.
@Capra My interpretation was always that it wasnt just a flashback but Bayonetta's memories and Bayonetta experiencing two contradictory histories was what makes her collapse in that scene.
@@capra1531 it needs to be emphasized repeatedly that Bayonetta games have a very consistent track record of being really bad at conveying the stuff that sounded all cool and logical in Kamiya's head. Every single one. The entire Eyes of the World arc needs a flow chart to convey the temporal/causal bullshit invoked to try and get a working pair of Eyes to exist in a single point and time, for both the individual games and as a two-part whole.
@@capra1531 everyone sees the game in different lights. I mean, I have the wild crackpot stance that the baton pass to Viola isn't simply her being the next Bayonetta, but rather Platinum's roundabout way of doting on and razzing Devil May Cry. Emphasis: wild and crackpot.
Exactly, you got it OP. Cereza was brought 500 years into the future so that Bayo 1 could become her role model and give her a reason to be brave and not "fear her fate". That Cereza doesn't get stabbed and sealed and gets 500 more years of history. She fights alongside Jeanne in the falling clock tower during the prologue. The added 500 years of power and two conflicting histories overwhelms Bayonetta in the present and awakens the Left Eye as the timeline stabilizes. Bayo doesn't have massive amnesia and knows who she is, and still opts to be Bayonetta. Bayo 2 starts directly after Bayo 1 and drops the reveal that Balder was possessed by Loptr. The Lumen Sage getting possessed by Loptr in the end is still a stable time loop with Bayo 1.
Regarding 1:31:09, is there a big Bayo 3 merch push? It’s crazy cynical, but could the whole story structure just be to sell lots of different Bayonetta merchandise?
From the very first teaser trailer many years ago, this was my dream. Her getting torn in half would lead to a traditional Bayo and a Lumen version of Bayo
Woolie - I was so fearful when I heard Dante say "Royal Guard". My asshole clenched so hard it could crush diamonds! Me - Oh I cant hit you now? Ok. *BUSTER* Well that was easy, ya ready to go back to your other styles now Dante?
So glad you guys posted it in full lol. It was a great podcast. I still can't believe they managed to piss off Bayonetta/Platinum games fans, the apparent target audience of this whole thing lol. It's amazing how 3 people in 2 hours can tweak a few aspects of the game/narrative that would make the overrall experience MUCH better (not to say game-dev is easy, but my god did they fuck it up this time). It's funny how 90% of the fanbase never asked for this. No multiverse shenanigans, no multiple Bayos, no new protag, no overly complex yet still unsatisfying main plot, etc. People just wanted a sequel to Bayo 2, not a bad copy-paste of other (much) better games.
Platinum believes themselves to be much more competent than they actually are. They need to go back to very linear character action games with children's story plots.
I find it funny that the idea bayonetta 3 was changed due to dmc 5 influence makes even more sense when you take in to account viola's early marketing was a Vergil like character.
I think Bayo 3 is gonna end up as the DMC2 of the series: rushed, creatively scattered, ambitions curbed by tech that can't support it. I think of Bayo 3's open world idea and it reminds me of how DMC2 was meant to have tons of giant city levels that ended up scrapped due to limitations. I could easily see Bayo 4 being a prequel, only to jump back to modern times and ignore the cannon in 5. No one cares where DMC2 fits on the timeline
Its wild ride for Bayonetta fans. Waiting for 8 years for a sequel, the whole Helena situation, then the game released which....did such a disservice to the characters and story. Cherry on top is the forced romance with Bayonetta and Luka, whom the first 2 games had no romantic chemistry besides Bayo treating Luka more of a pet than someone of interest.
🚨ATTENTION BAYONUTTERS 🚨
I'm feeling pretty town right now, not gonna lie
Ask to join the podcast permanently, everyone wants you to
I second the Raccoon’s suggestion.
Are YOU Town?
1:08:04
She has been caught off guard before in 1 and 2
11:11 th-cam.com/video/sFi_RzsKajA/w-d-xo.html
But it was never bad as 3
We are now in the timeline where Bayonetta is an apathetic sociopath written by someone who thinks they know what "cool" is, and Kratos is a genuinely caring man who only wishes the best for his family and for the bloodshed to end.
I'll be damned.
The only new thing on Kratos is the bloodshed part. The whole point of post GoW1 kratos is that he's so consumed by guilty and despair that he closes himself to the world and laches to anyone who messes with him.
Atreus: "I hope it was worth it." Kratos: "It was not."
Viola: "I hope it was worth it." Bayonetta: "lol check out my cool dance moves"
@@ricardomiles2957 People also tend to forget the main menu of the first GOW has him attempt suicide the second you click New Game.
@@Dragonsmana i honestly do, yeah. I thought that was at the end lmao.
@@just_matt214 Technically you are right, as the game starts in media res, he jumps off the cliff then it fades to prior point in time, and the game begins, so the game circles back to it. It was, and still is pretty well done lol.
I wish Singularity was a Bayonetta from a multiverse where she was born bald, and therefore powerless. She devotes herself to science and discovers the multiverse, where every other version of herself is a magical badass who fights with her hair. This causes Bald-onetta to lose her mind and try to merge all of the multiverses into her own so she can be the cool one
Ok but what if she did 100 push-ups, 100 sit ups, 100 squats, and a 10 km run.
Every.
Single.
Day.
That is an incredible idea and i wish it was real.
I never thought about how disastrous alopecia would be for bayo until i saw this comment lol
That's...
actually not terrible...
A better story than what we got, for sure
10:00
Woolie’s likes’
11:45
Viola combat design
12:30
DMC 5/ Bayonetta 3 development/character comparison (spoilers) [Viola/Nero]
18:00
Nero reception/evolution/torch passing
23:00
Viola characterization
25:00
Level Design
27:27
Nero playstyle (skills, abilities, etc.)
34:18
Bayonetta series plot/continuity (Does Bayonetta even know the concept of plot? lol)
37:39
Bayo/Luka (Luka's role/importance)
42:17
Mini-Game Sequences/ Side Missions
48:15
Replayability/Boss Fights/Difficulty/ Secret Missions
52:10
Enemy Names
56:20
Jeanne/Bayo Gay Pairing vs Bayo/Luka Pairing
1:09:06
Rhodea
1:12:40
Supporting cast
1:30:10
Who is Singularity?
1:31:00
Into the Bayoverse
1:31:30
Coolest character in Bayonetta series (besides Bayo)
1:34:40
Bayobland (Bayonetta Variants)
1:35:04
Lukanetta
1:36:40
Post-Bayonetta 3/Ending/ Hideki Kamiya tweet
A Heroic Chancla appears. Instead of sending us to Inferno it guides us with a firm, and steady foamy sole.
Good shit fam
Thank you king 👑
Thanks for your service.
Gracias 🙏🏽
Imagine traveling back to 2017 right as Woolie and Pat finish watching the original reveal for BAYONETTA 3 and telling them that not only will they not enjoy it, but they will literally be cited in news articles as the voices of a disappointed fanbase.
What articles were they cited in?
In essence, the conclusion being arrived at is that a simple story doesn't necessarily make it bad, nor does complexity add depth. Execution is of greatest priority. A well seasoned lemon chicken breast is magnitudes better than a chaotic gumbo of every ingredient in your fridge.
DMC may not have complex plot threads, but the motivations of the characters are simple and therefore easy to communicate to the audience. Bayonetta, by contrast, wants every emotion, plot twist, and setting simultaneously... And becomes a tedious, tangled mess as a result.
Also, most importantly, the gameplay fucking rules. Despite the many flaws with DMC4, at least the gameplay was fun, with narrative cohesion and cool setpieces that didn't feature completely different gameplay for zero reasons. Story flaws can be waved if the gameplay and level design deliver. Turns out this game has none of those
I feel the simplicity of the of DMC's setup is also what allows it to have a suprising amount of nuance. Like I've seen really interesting think pieces come out of that final bossfight between Nero and Vergil and how it acts as confrontation on ideological level, that finally manages to convince Vergil to set aside his pride and lay the obsessive quest for power to rest. Or just how much of the mechanical language of different characters' fighting styles reflects and enforces their personalities and motivational behaviour.
@@jondoe7036 Right? Between purging his nightmares and, in a way, accepting his humanity again, that final fight in DMCV was the over the top action game equivalent of a deadbeat dad realizing that he is, in fact, a huge piece of shit that cared about all of the wrong things in his life.
This is the best way to put it. As I was watching Woolie's playthrough i was thinking "They really came up with a cool dramatic scene and just wound up there regardless of how it works"
Its kind of funny to read Kamiya's response to Bayo 3's criticisms and months later, he has left the company
Man's literally dropped *"If you didn't like what we did, DO NOT PLAY OUR NEXT GAMES. We are very dedicated to this current direction for bayonettas story"* lol. Okay bud, will not buy bayonetta 4 understood.
Or platinums next game probably for that matter. Maybe if it isn't neckchained to the switch.
To address the new choreographer question @ 1:14:47 Pat you are not wrong. As I pointed out in my Bayonetta 3 review, the choreographer for Bayonetta 3 is Koharu Sugawara who does more contemporary/modern/hip-hop influenced dance and is more prominently known for being a kpop choreographer rather than the previous choreographer who did Bayonetta 1 & 2. I've known of and about Koharu for years (back when she was dancing under Rino Nakasone, a very well known Japanese dancer and choreographer who is heavily influenced by Michael Jackson).
When I saw her name in the opening credits of Bayo 3, I definitely noticed the style difference in this Bayo's dancing as Bayo 3 is doing popping, snappy footwork (esp. in the ending credit Inferno dance), and her overall dancing is sharp, quick, and modern in comparison to the previous choreographer clearly leaning heavily into Voguing which is a more graceful style of dance that was rooted in fashion and model poses as inspiration for that dance style.
Thanks for the infro!
I think if the game ended with viola, Luka and bayonetta all fighting at once (in battle, not just cutscene), she didn't die and all the bayos/jeanne got restored, and told her that she earned the right to be an umbra witch rather than just replace her, that alone with boost most people's approval of the story by like, at least 30%.
Honestly if they dedicated more time to the games story outside of the last 8%, like explaining what the fuck was going on with Luka or giving Viola an arc of any kind, it wouldn't be SO bad
But like . . .
Fuck
Singularity is so fucking nothing, I would've much preferred all the prophecy shit is just an Evil Bayo that's super full of herself and girlbossing too hard, she gaslit herself.
I get that, but Pat's whole this is like 9/11 for the gay's comparison is a bit ridiculous. Like okay, this one character who you relate a lot to isn't gay and you thought they were gay. You've got three options at this point cope by denying it and making your fanfiction your own personal head cannon, seethe and continue to be salty about it, or grow up. The world doesn't exist to make you a self-insert character for everything imaginable under the sun. Take it from me a straight white male who's accepted that straight white men are on their way out the door when it comes to being portrayed as heroes or even being made into characters at all in anything for the sake of "diversity", but hey you could also just say I'm being salty about it as well as all the ists and the phobes that you wanna throw at me.
@@theprofesionalist7927 “straight white men are on the way out from being depicted as heroes”, my guy having more diverse protagonists doesn’t mean straight white men are disappearing from gaming. It means now there are more than 2 options for protagonists.
@@heartlyght7422 i play jrpgs so i never had that issue, this is very clearly a western issue
37:55 As soon as Pat says "10" Woolies mind assembles the puzzle and immediately takes Frenzy damage.
38:00 The Woolie upon feeling horror attempts to hide himself away from the Truth. Alas he cannot.
*THE SHADOW REMAINS CAST*
I dont hate Luca or like him but god was woolie's "shut up" hilarious
His whole rant of "if you just stick around long enough she'll crack!' was fantastic!
Reminds me of Liam and Warren "don't touch me"
The sheer DISGUST in his voice
@@thelaughingrouge Woolie cannot get the idea of Luka as an Incel beta orbiter out of his head, and I love it. The sheer revulsion and disgust is just... *MWAH*
@@RicochetForce It's like witnessing the birth of a mind goblin. His ship got cucked by a mediocre dude and it's causing him psychic damage.
The big takeaway I get from this is Reggie NEEDS to play DMC
It is kind of crazy that he hasn't been handed DMC1 yet.
I'm there for a Reggie DMC series playthrough.
@@RicochetForce 2 will not be skipped this time
I can´t wait for Reggie to play DMC!
And much like the "TARKUS! TARKUS! TARKUS!" moment, Woolie will show Reggie the "Judgement Nut" moment from when Virgil is resurrected
woolie basically asking for an episode of "wha happun?" is hilarious to me
I'm three days late to this comment, but funny thing:
th-cam.com/video/bQ2WTd-Ky8o/w-d-xo.html
Yeah but Matt has already made that video
@@AngryHomunculusand it was really good.
My problem with Platinum's internal storytelling team (when its not written by an actual experienced writer like in Nier) is that they try to pull a Gurren Lagann everytime so their sequels have to try and one up it. If they did not go for the alternate universes and expanded universe and reduced the scale then I feel like we'd be in a better place.
The fact their FIRST game starts with weird overlapping time travel shenanigans, while also introducing the entire world to you is mind boggling looking back on it. Itd be like if the first half of Gurren tried to also have the massive universal ending. It'd be so hollow and weirdly paced out.
There's not a single story where bayonetta gets to go on an adventure that doesn't dramatically alter/invalidate her universe via some weird meta narrative.
It's so weird man.
dmcv is like terry bogard passing the torch to rock howard
bayonetta 3 is like ryu passing the torch to dan hibike
At least Dan hibike is kinda funny unlike viola
LITERALLY!!
More like every version of Ryu while Rufus picks up his headband during the credits lmao
If you want a smart take on hot girl + goofus look at Jessica Rabbit. "What do you see in him?" "He makes me laugh." Translation: "I don't get why you're with someone I see as lesser." "It's not for YOU to get, I'M happy."
There’s actually internal logic for why Jessica Rabbit is with Roger. For Toons, being funny is what makes you attractive, moreso than your physical appearance, so Roger Rabbit is actually like Brad Pitt to the Toon population, which is why Betty Boop says Jessica is “a lucky girl” for landing Roger. Only Bob Hoskins thinks their coupling is weird. The only reason I bother bringing this up is because it’s one of my favorite details in that movie.
@@BareBandSubscription
"For Toons, being funny is what makes you attractive"
does that mean Jessica Rabbit is actually hideous for toons? She's not very funny
@@RoachDoggJR4200
Kinda-sorta. In a way, yes, because some toons genuinely believe he’s out of her league, but then she’s suddenly attractive when it actually services humor. Eddie (Bob Hoskins) isn’t a toon, so he just thinks she’s attractive and way out of Roger’s league. That movie lowkey has some great worldbuilding.
The modern colloquialism: she let me hit cause I'm goofy
There's something to be said about Viola's character that Luka of all people ends up getting more Ws in the game
She is so lame that Enzo of all people at the end talks down to her.
The idea that "Across the Bayo-verse" boils down to "Bayo but from X Country" is the real Swindle of Progress
Oh, but Hatsune Miku does it /j
Watching Woolie take massive psychic damage at around 38:00 is so far my favorite moment of the video lol
Ya know what's funny? The good folks over at OSP (Overly Sarcastic Productions) actually put out a video not too long ago breaking down what they (or more specifically Red) called The Multiverse Problem. While I won't go over everything their video covers I will say that practically ALL of the issues and problems with a branching time-line multiverse are present in this game.
The way I see it the Multiverse was put into place to do the following.
1: Have a bunch of unique Bayo designs
2: Have a bunch of diverse levels in the game without having to do the heavy lifting of explaining how the characters end up in these locations
3: Retcon the plot and deliver a new status quo
In the end what we ended up getting from this game was a ramshackle plot who's tone is all over the place and a passing of the torch story that not only didn't need to exist but was also done in the worst way possible.
That sounds horrible!
1:38:52
"OKAY?! THE GAME ITSELF IS MID AS FUCK, YOU BALD ASSHOLE!!!"
I love you, Pat. 🤣
Hahaha!
Oh man Suzi's glasses are so big, I love them
And Woolie's Christmas tree looks lovely behind him, really fills out the space
Pat, you're doing your best.
This is his office, tge trees probly in the main house
@@alphax-shroom6781 should have had a charlie brown tree in the background. Small and sad.
Where's the skeleton in pat's room?!?
Pat is not doing his best, I assure you
Ngl Suzie with glasses is just the tailor lady in the Incredibles
I would be mad stoked if Suzi became the third CSB host, she's so rad!!!
she is, her snort laugh is so cute
I don't know if I want her for every episode, I love the vibe Pat and Woolie have by themselves, but I would not object to Suzi every month or two. Maybe get Gene back on now that his treatment's wrapped up too.
I support your idea! Or at least a recurring guest!
I think the implication with Rodin talking about Luka is that Rodin goes to hell regularly to kick demon asses. And thus can visit and TALK to Bayo and Luka
Yeah but at the same time a lot of people swear that killing Singularity "retconned" every death caused by him, so he could be actually alive? It's a mess, so it's hard to tell.
@@Mantis47 it's not. Killing Singularity couldnt Recon Luka and Bayo dying cause they died *after* Singularity was killed. Bayo died from getting finished off by Gomorrah, and Luka let himself be dragged into hell _with_ her.
if they'd died *before* Singularity did, it'd be a case of "those killed by Singularity get restored" in a sort of "Singularity was trying to become an omniversal, omnipotent Observer, where Reality was what He decided, thus with him gone, his 'observations' were negated and undone" way.
But they died *after* Singularity got killed, so they werent part of that "Singularity's 'truth' was made 'false'" collective.
Small thought, Kraken Bayo should have been Viola's mother. The lingering resentment/rage/whatever angst of her own mother is the Bayo that hands the title on to Viola, instead of one she's known for a few hours.
Viola makes peace with her past by helping her mother find rest, and it's a somewhat meaningful Bayo to pass the title on. Also makes a bit more sense as to why the Kraken randomly attacks, it either slipped through with Viola, or it was searching for the lost daughter.
Maybe another reason for Kraken to pass on to Viola as well, Bayo's contract gets passed on to the daughter.
You should email this to platinum and see if you can get a position as a writer. You have pretty good chances imo.
that might very well have been the idea that was going on there, just not properly conveyed.
I'm pretty sure Kraken Bayo is her mother. She and Singularity are from the same universe, where Bayo and Luka hooked up and then eventually died and became Dark Adam/Dark Eve.
I assumed Rodin saying “Your father will make a fuss” means that despite being in hell, Bayo and Luka are doing fine and are still in contact with Rodin. It also tells me that her death isn’t going to stick, and is more like Goku’s death at the end of the Cell saga
Madam Butterfly had a majority stake in Bayo's soul right? They seemed closer then Bayo's other contracts. I wouldn't be surprised that she just let's Bayonetta do whatever down there.
There's also a final picture in Viola's room showing a selfie on Viola in Rodin's bar with someone that looks like Bayonetta
@@hunterwynn3826 wow didnt even see that one
Which is still a really weird line as well because since when does Rodin give a shit about Luka's opinion? Is this the first time in the series that Rodin even acknowledges that he exists?
@@waitselljones8068 No, they had a scene in the ending of 2.
1:55:10 so what pat is describing here is actually a really important thing that basically every major form of media has fallen into the pitfall of, which is that human quickly become desensitized to things, *particularly* things they cannot personally relate to. When you see a huge universe spanning war explosion festival... It's meaningless. There's no person you can relate to or emotional connection you can make, because the perspective isn't about someone going through it but the thing happening. That moment in ragnarok hits so hard because you've seen the person's journey through the story and that's the culmination of the arc. Plus its told in a way that is actually ever so slightly the tiniest bit subtle and the game doesn't beat you over the head with the symbolism of it when the rest of the game is almost offensive in terms of going HEY DID YOU GET IT, DID YOU GET THIS THING.
So yeah, its basically just a way more relatable moment cause its humanizing in a way that we are wired to empathetically connect to instead of just some big shitshow of flashing lights and colors that's meaningless to our monkey brains.
One of the really impressive things about DMC5 is that it manages to be About Family, with genuinely emotionally engaging stakes, even though the actual stakes are cities "everywhere" being consumed by a demonic apocalypse.
Can't help but feel that humanizing is ultimately just wasted on a character like Kratos, when they can't even have the story actually substantially address and confront what he had done, if they want to keep him grounded and relatable.
@@jondoe7036I mean Kratos wasn’t completely irredeemable until 3, and even then he showed signs of humanity with Pandora and the ending. A lot of what he becomes is his fault, but dude was screwed over from birth.
@@TigoODonnell Don't see how he would have been any better in 2 honestly; by that point he's already kinda in the habbit of crushing unlucky bystanders in between door hinges just to keep the door open.
He may not be completely void of sympathetic qualities, but I would not call him redeemable by the tail end of the Greek saga. He does bunch of things that go well past the Moral Event Horizon on several occations. And yeah, he is a tragic character, both due to the circumstances he ended up in and his flaws as a person causing him to spiral further out of control. Twisting and stretching out his narrative, so they can let him live all the awful things he's done and been through down and give him a happier ending, defeats the whole purpose of the tragedy of his character for me.
The whole ending of Bayo 3 feels like DMC 5 without DMC 4 existing.
And written way worse...
And with Vergil and Dante dying.
Vergil died hugging that one girl from Dmc4 SE dlc who is supposedly Nero's mom, she just runs in at the end and talks about fate or something and also dies.
This
Imagine DMC2 but ends with Lucia now the protagonist of the franchise.
Bayo 3 is DMC 5 without 4, 3 and 1 existing.
Woolie's like "the FEAR when you hear Dante say ROYAL GUARD" and I'm like, you mean the feeling of "oh sweet time to buster his ass"?
Well, if you play Vergil.......
Woolie has very specific trauma of doing Bloody Palace as Vergil
A lot of people don't know that snatch and buster hard counter Royal Guard. The first time it happens you don't know it has a weakness, you're just paralyzed in fear.
That "Groom-onetta" line killed me!
37:37
Time stamp??
The terror, revulsion and rejection of that concept by Woolie was hilarious. The man wanted to leave this planet immediately.
@@Z3Milesky 38:19
When it comes to stuff like the triple bayonetta thing that completely ruins continuity, I think Platinum's biggest issue when it comes to story is that they want to have really cool and hype moments but don't do much work into building up or thinking about the implications of said moments. Like they hope that the spectacle is enough for you to not think about it but didn't realize the audience needed to think for a nanosecond for the moment to fall apart.
it pains me to say it but Platinum is getting uncomfortably David Cahje-esque in that sense. they have these cool moments and then they're like "how do we get to that" and just kinda incoherently fart through to it
They do have some explanation for those cool moments, it's just unfortunately only explained in bios and journal entries. In the bios they stated that the Bayonettas in 1, 2 and 3 all experienced the same events with very little deviation from each other's timeline.
I think thats true for 3, but previous Bayo games do at least try to build up to things adequately. Bayo 1 & 2 might not be told well, but they are leauges more invested in showing whats going on and the stakes for each encounter. They have stories. Fun ones even with themes and plenty of subtext to chew into after sometime to digest
Bayo 3 doeen't have a story. It has a plot with stakes, but no narrative to go along with them until the last 8% of the game
@@conelybiscuit4985 Oh no... they made ze bad game.......
Y'all have seen the reaction images of Pat, Woolie and Reggie to the ending, now it's time for the Second Impact 37:38
I still remember how excited they were for this game.
Time to see where it all went wrong.
The moment Enzo's family being killed was treated like it was his car being jacked up
We need to go 🔙
@@Dasaltwarrior The scene is even worse than Bayo dancing in the background while Enzo cries for his death family.
@@diegomedina9637 seriously though what were they thinking?
I just find it baffling how any writer could consider a scene like that.
the Bayo stories were weird before and pretty messy but making Bayonetta into a fucking sociopath crossed the line for me
@@joedatius Bayo wasn't even the issue in that scene, it was Rodin. "Yo, look at this punk ass. Trying to go out there to find the bodies of his loved ones just to give them a proper bury or at least find out if they're even alive or death, pathetic"
I think one of the biggest failures with Viola from a gameplay perspective is that she doesn't feel _different_ from Bayonetta. She just feels like a worse version of the same character. There nothing that Viola can do that Bayo can't do better. Even her big gimmick is completely undermined by the fact that the Moon accessory has existed _since the very first game._ Whereas Nero feels VERY different from Dante. They have a good number of similarities, but Nero has a good number of gimmicks and mechanics that belong to him alone. Dante can't Ex-Act or Max-Act. Dante ain't got no Buster! So even from the beginning, Nero has his own _mechanical_ identity, and the fact that playing him offers unique benefits means that players don't hate being him. Whereas I spent every moment playing Viola desperately wishing I was playing as Bayonetta instead.
I dunno man, once you find out that Viola's block has Combo Offset properties, or that it can cancel out of the kick moves to give you more ways to transition into barehanded state, things get kinda crazy with her. I'd go so far as to say using Viola's block only to try and parry is like thinking that as Nero, Exceed is something you charge manually and has no clear flow into the rest of his kit.
The block button stuff has the distinct feeling of unintended emergent gameplay compared to the more deliberately tuned Exceed system, but I feel they both have comparable levels of "if you think this is all it's good for, you ain't seen nothing yet."
@@shazbots7287 Maybe, but the OP's argument is more about mechanical identity than about mechanical power. Is "Block Combo Offsetting" really all THAT different from Dodge Offsetting? The closest comparison I can think of is Dante's Trick to Nero's Snatch, rather than Exceed, at which point fine but even if we take that to be enough what ELSE is there that isn't just Bayo but worse, which even Block Combo Offsetting can count as if you think about it?
They definitely tried to move the story too fast for introducing a new main character. This is only the third game and they are already going with multiverse ending stakes for a brand new character to deal with.
Pat: If ya don't want Bayonetta 3 Spoilers, skip like, an hour.
*talks about it for 2*
the only time I can think of where beating a boss with a character unlocks something for not that character is when you beat Beowulf with Dante and it upgrades the next boss battle with Vergil
That is true atleast technically though that is a good example of doing something like that right since it has a very clearly payoff and hype moment to make a rivalry more cool while Viola just gets shit all
I guess Technically p4 is all about bosses for other people to unlock stuff.
@@joedatius also have to remember, Dante *beat* Beowulf, but it was _Vergil_ that finished him off, thus gaining Beowulf's power via Demon Rules. Beowulf fled from Dante, thus Dante "won" the fight, but Beowulf *died* at Vergil's hands, meaning Vergil gets the power-up.
@@Xenmaru00 yeah you're entirely correct. it certainly helps that both Vergil and Dante are badass in this scenario and its a relatively minor boss compared to Viola who this was her LAST boss and the last boss in the story along with being the one special kind of cool fight that everyone loves with it being the boss were you fight the long time protagonist. I mean for fucks sake she doesn't use witchtime on you.
That feeling when the GOWR Heimdall fight feels more like fighting Bayonetta then Bayo3.
and a very important thing to say about that scenario is that then you proceed to beat Vergil and get Beowulf from him so it's still an upgrade for Dante at the end of the day
Like I've said before the story should've been about Luka. The "not so important goofball is actually extremely important and powerful" trope exists and would've worked just fine here. He could've been a descendant of super powerful fairy King Lukaon who along with his race of fairies, are introduced as another powerful force just like the witches and lumen sages. And now singularity is after him and his powers. Maybe he wants to kill him and take his powers or he wants to possess him and use them to conquer everything like a classic bad guy would do. With a story like that they could've properly fleshed things out and make better sense of Luka having his powers, the fairy race being introduced, and his relationship with bayo. The multiverse thing should've been saved for a whole other game. It's like they tried to mash two huge stories into one which definitely did NOT work out lol
Lukadon should have showed up to help during the various Strider fights and/or during the Singularity fights at the end of each world actively fighting or neutralizing them to better show that he was actively part of the story as opposed to the 2 scenes he’s in where he pretty much just gives exposition
Even if they were hellbent on multiverse, faeries being these special things that can move between realities is also a trope that they could use, but instead it's barely used for anything super interesting.
I honestly feel like giving Luka that sort of importance is the wrong approach. I feel that a better pair for Viola's parents is an unlucky Bayo, where things never quite work out just due to bad luck, but she's still just as capable paired up with a Lucky Tedd version of Luka. He's still slapstick, but his goofs and misteps end up landing him exactly where he needs to be at that moment.
BETTER YET? Cut Singularity and the homonculi out entirely. Within the plane of fairies situated in the UK, something goes wrong. *Horribly wrong.* Fairies all over the world go berserk, *including Luka.* Luka becomes the werewolf, and now you have a Fairy faction to fight against while Bayonetta and Co find out what's happening with the fairies. Fairy myths IRL sometimes touch on how immensely secretive the fairies are, and that most people that see one are either killed or taken in, never to be seen again, so you now have precedence for a previously untouched-upon faction just suddenly turning up out of the blue!
Also in a series of ass-pulls, Luka being a descendent of fairies is just one of many, so I'd imagine it would be forgivable.
The 3 bayonetta's combined should have been their own character with their own gun because 1 barrel + 2 barrels + 3 barrels should have given us a god damned 6 shooter
I'll say this, Rodan should've been a playable character.
I think Luka works as a pairing better if you pretend Bayo 2 doesn't exist. In Bayo 1 he gets some cool moments and has good chemistry with Bayo, and it's left ambiguous if Bayo sees Jean as a friend, family, or romantic partner.
It's only in Bayo 2 where Luka becomes a complete joke and hanger on, while the game makes it very clear how close Bayonetta is to her "roommate".
And Bayo 1 and 2 are now confirmed to be different universes... And what does the Bayo from Viola's world looks like? Bayo 1. We literally just cracked the code.
Bayo 1 ends with Luka becoming more interested in her, so I knew something like this was going to happen at some point, but I was expecting for it to be more developed than what we fucking got in the game it goes down in
I don't hate the pairing on paper, but they didn't even set any paper to write this shit down on
@@Dasaltwarrior The issue here was 2. He does nothing in 2 other than swing Loki out of the scene like once. God sometimes I wonder if 2 has the worse Story of the 3 games.
To me its not that Luka And Bayo pair is bad, its the way they went about it. There is no proper setup, Luka doesn't get to redeem himself to the audience as a competent equal or a clutch silver tongues dude. Makes no sense
Yeah if you just make up a bunch of bullshit, it's not that bad. I can't think of a stronger endorsement
Woolie: "We don't want to upload the entire podcast because it'll drive down subscription rates"
Also Woolie:
Hell hath no fury like a character action fan being burned and Lukapilled after waiting 8 years.
As a bayo fan who grooms ten year olds while embodying an absolute f*ckstick of a personality: I feel vindicated for my actions and validated for my lifestyle choices. 😂❤ /s
A 2 hour discussion on a "mid" Bayonetta game was not on my 2022 bingo
Understandable if you love something that much.
Imagine how long the DMC5 discussion would've been if that game was 'mid'.
There was a pretty big segment about V and vergil, I think.
@@soliduswasright678
Eh, wouldn't have been that surprising considering DMC4 was mixed at best and DmC was. . . Y'know
Just surprising to see a Bayo game being described as "half baked" after 1 & 2 being so well produced
@@Dasaltwarrior I think the difference for DMC4 is that there are lots of high moments for the game and the combat in general is incredible also its story even though messy at points actually makes sense and doesn't do completely stupid things made to make fans upset. imagine if in DMC4 Dante was actually evil instead of what we got
What sucks the most is that these are people who love(d) the series, even through its flaws. They're supposed to be the target audience, yet this game manages to disappoint them in almost every way.
It's soul crushing to watch them brainstorm dozens of different ways this could've gone in the span of 2 hours, while it seems no one in the dev room ever pointed these flaws out throughout these last 5+ years of production.
On the the topic of Enzo's wife, I recall Bayo and Rodan commenting on how good her casseroles are which implies they've interacted with her and presumably think more highly of her than Enzo. You'd think that there'd at least be cut to Bayo where she looks down with a troubled look on her face considering how her whole thing is she's stylish and confident unless it has to do with her past and her losing her family as she treats it more seriously.
The game is so obviously "DMC V was cool, let's copy that" that Rodin is doing Niko shit in his pizza stand van and instead of a motorcycle chainsaw weapon you get s train chainsaw weapon.
Bro you get a ranged weapon that takes the form of a A HAT, and if that wasn't enough they had a cutscene with a Michael Jackson dance joke in the same mission!
@@RahkshiMaster
Let's be honest. Kamiya got to make is dream game and then the sequels got taken away from him. So he replaced it with bayo, a generally overall better game in most aspects and it flopped to Nintendo where the sequel was never gonna shine due to the Wii u and they need their own IPs to ensure a future and they only have 101 for that. If he's salty, I wouldn't blame him.
The real question is did bayo1 take place before or after dmc4 because some of the savior's troops look like affinities and we're bug like underneath.
@@furyberserk Looking at Bayo 3 vs. DMC 3, 4, and 5, I gotta be real, I'm glad the series got taken away from him lmao
Sounds Bayonetta 3 is a parody to DMC and Capcom.
You remember Capcom is bigger than platinum and for unknown reason they hated to Kamiya.
I really want to know what was going through Platinum’s brain when they decided “Let’s kill off Bayo and Jeanne and replace them with Bayo and Luka’s bumble-fucking idiot of a daughter. She’ll be the new Bayonetta going forward! The fans will love it!!!”
I mean it's pretty obvious that DMCV was going through their heads rent-free.
@@Dragon4234 *Devil trigger and Storm That Is Approaching just playing in each ear*
Honestly the daughter of Bayonetta completes them theme of the Bayonetta series. In the first game Cereza young self came to the future and started calling Bayonetta mother with Bayonetta having to take care of her, all while having chemistry with Luka (yes Bayonetta1 was pushing that). Second game Bayonetta went to the past and fought alongside her actual mother and father while taking care of an obnoxious teenager, Loki. Bayonetta having a daughter was the natural conclusion to go with for Bayonetta 3 when you're following the series' theme.
Actully, I kinda can see the logic in that. Bayo and Jeanne have very simular character archetypes and pre-establised dynamics. Platinum has made it very clear that they want do get out of being just the "Stylish action Dev". So, by replacing the Main character with somebody that has the opposite Energy could work.
Like how Jojo Part 2 followed up the classic Noble figther of Jonathan with Joseph, who wins fights by tricks, cheating and even running away.
The Biggest issue is that:
A: Bayo as this super sexy and confident character was a huge appeal to the Fans, so replacing her with Viola, who gets plagued by Slap-stick, just pisses people off.
And B: The change of characteristics could be shown in diffrent ways instead of making her look weak. Like, instead of a scene of Bayo walking through town looking like a Fashion Model 24/7, have Viola start her day in a shitty appartment, with unkept hair and looking terrible. Or her trying to act cool and seductive in a cutscene and failing complettly. Or beating a boss and trying to come up with a cool One-liner or witty line like Bayo only to not come up with one and just go "Oh fuck this, just drop dead!".
Just anything that makes her still look capable and not like a tool.
no one here actually thinks Bayos gone for good do they?
This is like the third time this week I’ve heard Woolie say “depends on the skill of the Runner” in a real life non-sarcastic context and I really can’t believe this is a man who has never played a single Armored Core game.
I thought it's a ZoE reference
Yeah, because it's a Zone of the Enders thing lmao
@@just_matt214 nice Furi pfp
@@dantetouchdown9030 I know right? Better action game than Bayo 3 lmao.
@@just_matt214 easily, who's your favourite jailor?
She's a regular now ! kinda strange how from a fan she became a contemporary and a colleague . All the best to her , and this new chapter .
TierZoo, Clemps, SuperEyePatchWolf, now Suzy. The SBFP curse was inspiring fans to become more successful than them lol
You're pretty much correct . And that's what makes it so strange to me .
@@OrbObserver I consider it not a curse but a blessing. If you love the Best Friends you will be blessed with success in your own endeavors. 😇
The tripling down cements my idea that kamiya got more sway to do what he wanted along with his growing need to make his nero better and make everything bayonetta goes up against and gets way bigger but makes it the worst fan fiction ever invented instead
Secret missions in DMC show you the sick stuff you can do if you push your tools to their limit while secret missions in Bayo 3 are just to body Viola like Sora in a Cloudie McDoom skit....
A late Christmas Gift but still glad it arrived
Couldn’t catch this live but I’m so excited to see their convo about the ending of Bayo 3
When introducing Viola, I wonder if they were afraid and didn’t want her to seem too good or better than Bayonetta, but unfortunately went about it making her look like she just kinda sucked.
Yeah, one thing I've learned from torch passes is they seem to be better received when the new protag isn't instantly better than the old. Kiryu beats up Ichiban and Dante can handle way more than Nero for instance, but they don't overdo it to where they look like weak characters. With Viola they went too far.
@@shiningknight23 Well Nero actually ends up becoming just as strong if not a bit stronger then Dante by the end of DMCV but its built up and has an actual payoff meanwhile though Nero is never really shown to be incompetent even when compared to Dante since they both need large power ups just to fight Urizen
She is the opposite of a Mary Sue, a useless character
That's kinda the point? She's an untested amateur witch, it's in her in-game title. I can't remember where I hear it from but part of Viola's narrative purpose as a playable character is to showcase how exeptionally powerful and skilled Bayonetta is among all witches.
@@shiningknight23 Like, literally the first fight in DMC4 is for establishing, "if Dante had been a normal enemy, he would've died in this fight. Nero is strong. He's just not _Dante_ strong." And then he went through two games to earn that development before he became stronger than his predecessors. Not to mention the entire plot of DMC5 coming together to justify it within the framing of Vergil's plight.
Susie is great, hope she sticks around for more episodes. She gels really well with Pat and Woolie
edit: hope shes on more to piss the people replying to this post off
😒
It’s the epitome of a woman’s touch. Not that they needed it but lord knows they weren’t gonna get it from Paige lol
@@rasendori20 Woman? Let me not.....
@@thunderbird2712 not what?
@@thunderbird2712 Dude. Don’t even start. This isn’t the community for you.
I feel like another way Viola got shafted was how they took away her grappling hook after her DT moment making her aerial mobility more precise, but way slower. It would have been nice if she kept the grappling hook and embraced her Nero-ness for some great snatching and pulling combos.
maybe they thought a snatch-like mechanic would be too overtly ripping off DMC (even though other things are already that) but fuck that, they already nade her Luka's daughter, using a grappling hook in combat would've been the one cool thing to come out of that
When I got to that final Bayo fight, I genuinely thought the final unlock would be that Vio would get to use Infernal Demons and Demon Masquerade in NG+ and it still baffles me to this day that she didn't.
I love the gameplay, but even as someone who genuinely enjoys Bayo 3, a lot of the narrative and gameplay decisions just feel weird...
oh my lord the fucking painful silence after Pat drops the time travel bomb about Cereza is hitting me in my core.
"Looks like you can't say it's worse than The Third Birthday now"
Its been my experience that alot of babies that are well taken care of by their parents are usually pretty calm unless they're hungry, tired, dirty etc.
This isn't a rule. But the parenting makes huge difference.
( edit:I know because I have 2 kids)
Unless you're like Pat as a baby who had chronic colic then there is no quieting them.
@@OrbObserver like I said, its not a rule. Babies that have no issues like Collic are typically fine.
Absolutely. My daughter was never the type to just cry for no reason
Crying is the only way babies can communicate. When they need something, whether it be food, or they are cold, or even if they just need attention and affection. If your infant is crying all the time then there is something wrong. If caring for their basic needs doesn't get them to calm down and crying just doesn't end, then you probably need to call your kids pediatrician.
37:30 Woolie experiencing Soul Death.
There was barely even a transition, he just went straight to full on mental anguish
Bayonetta 3 is a love letter to DMC V if it was written by a yandere.
I'm ashamed to say that back in the day I did skip DMC4 because of Nero, but literally only because of the box art. (This being the time before reading about products online was common, at least for a teen.) I saw Nero on the cover with no Dante and went "well I don't want to play a DMC game without Dante" and just didn't know what I was missing until SBF started playing them and talking about it.
Wow! I was in college when that game came out I remember always being aware that it was “A Resident Evil-like thing where there are multiple playable characters.” It has been so long, did that old back cover not explain that both Nero and Dante were playable?
@@TheJadedJames I believe that I saw the cover in a magazine ad and so didn't see the back.
Nah I’m not ashamed, Dante was and still is one of my favorite characters and the thought of this new guy trying to take the spot light really irks me, obviously I’ve come to terms with it and a transition, but Viola is just a shitshow.
They should’ve let viola have the Cracken that way she has a secondary weapon, and bayo would say this is your first official summon welcome to being a witch
PERFECT.
@@RicochetForce sadly wouldnt work. Unlike DMC rules, you dont get a demon's power for beating them, there's a contract involved. its *Rodin* that is forcibly turning demons into weapons by beating the hell out of them, then using whatever technique it is he had, to seal their essence into a weapon.
Viola's "contract" is with Cheshire, who is suggested to not so much be a demon but a Fae Spirit that inhabits the plush doll connected to the katana.
@@Xenmaru00 Yeah, the information from the Mab Dachi kinda confirms that he's almost certainly put in that sword by request from Queen Mab.
I know it's been said a bunch and it's totally unrelated to the topic, but geez Pat looks really good! Healthy and glowing and not just general ginger glowing either. Oh and yeah I agree with everyone else, bring Suzi on as a permanent host she's wonderful ❤️
Now heres the funny bit when they are talking about Bayo not looking behind her and bringing up saving Jeanne in Inferno and im like "Now how did Jeanne end up in Inferno in the first place? Cause Bayo wasnt paying attention behind her" So I guess theres your one for the series before 3.
The thing about that was that bayo had no reason to doubt gomorrah wouldn't be under control. An unexpected equipment malfunction is different from just not double tapping an enemy and being off gaurd.
I mean she sent it back and it came back out again instead, broke free from her control, and then roared loudly without her command I find it hard she wouldnt notice given how honed her senses usually are.
@@azure98 i think the thing is that since she wasnt using the Demon Slave technique, in 2, a "normal" summoning locks the caster in their summon pose till its over. We see her slap a Beloved's hand away in B1, but that's *all* she does, and she immediately returns to her pose.
Bayo was effectively in an animation lock, and Jeanne was fast enough to react to the Portal *still being open*. we also have to take into account the breaking of the contract, was likely enough of a shock that Bayo, not seeing what was *actually* going on behind her, felt the contract break, had a "wait what the fuck was that feeling?" moment, and *then* heard the roar, *just* exited Animation Lock, and would not have been able to react in time to not take a fatal blow.
Its also possible that the instant of a contract breaking, weakens an Umbra (who are *still* human, thus likely suffer some level of backlash other than "demon kills/eats them") severely, for a brief time.
Her senses may be honed as hell, but there were *many* external factors in play, firing off all at once, that could have either muddled her detection ability, overloaded her senses for a moment, or even simply caught her off guard in a way she'd not been for *years*.
There were a lot of reasons to assume everything got reset. Enzo's family is back alive and New York got restored (we know that is the same universe from the start of the game). Bayonetta 1 and 2 got erased before, Singularity said so himself, and yet they are back during the fight. The other Bayonettas and Jeanne coming back during the fight, they all got erased before.
Also, as far as I remember, no Bayonetta but Cereza got dragged into hell, they all got absorbed by Singularity. No red grabby hands. So there is no reason to assume they didn't get restored as well, same with Jeanne.
Of course, the ending is so damn unclear that there are arguments against this as well (why doesn't Jeanne mentor Viola if she is around), but it is not a stretch to assume so either, so I don't know where Pat gets his confidence from.
From what I understand, the Bayos all coming back for the Singularity fight in space is because he absorbed all the Arch-Eves for power, so when Bayonetta beat him up it cracked his armor and released all their souls. But since their souls then fade away after they get some good hits in I don't think them coming back to life is a reasonable assumption to make from that scene. Especially since they were in Jeanne's home universe at the time and she fades away like the rest.
Pat has a tendency to come to a conclusion and then proceed to ignore all evidence to the contrary because he's decided he's right. I don't think he's even conscious of it.
@@31Moth13 I don't think we are in Jeanne's home universe at the time? I thought the souls fading away meant they return to their own universes.
There also alot of reasons to believe it weren't restored.
@@Dan-Ky-Kang I thought Viola’s world was destroyed, so either she’s living in the only existing universe or there was indeed a reset
I miss the time stop thing Woolie used to do when he would tell you when to skip ahead in the spoilercast. Now you gotta guess if it'll be 30 mins or 2 hours.
Seriously, Woolie should stream his Ragnarok playthrough. Maybe bring Reggie along if he played the first one, or better yet, get some new guest character. (Suzi didn't stream on her end apparently, so maybe kill 2 birds with one Axe throw)
I think woolie rather stream with his buddy Reggie than have to probably set up a camera and worry about audio/video delays when he can just invite a person into his own home
@@violetshadowstone5250 Oh right, Suzi lives in the states. Shame, but good ol' Reggie works just fine. (I didn't suggest Pat cause he already finished Ragnarok)
Listening to this on the podcast was honestly one of the most cathartic experiences around all of Bayo 3.
The more you think about how it all ended up and how Kamiya is seemingly so dead set on sticking with the new narrative direction it just feels like a fever dream so hearing incredibly passionate and well informed people acknowledge the madness is so nice.
The raw Pessimism regarding Platinum in general is hard to watch.
At this point, I somehow would not be supriced that we will not even get a Bayo 4 at all, before Platinum gets bought/dissolved.
@Plinfan I mean it's hard not to be pessimistic about Platinum going forward given their desire to make more "live service" games after Babylons Fall.
How to please the Bayo 3 players, in 3 easy story edits:
1. Don't kill off the main cast.
2. Have it revealed that Viola was conceived via a threeway between Bayo, Jeanne, and Luka. Then give them funny flirtatious dialogue w/ each other that's light & campy.
3. More tits. More ass. More dumb sexy fun. It's frigging Bayonetta - ACT LIKE IT.
Nah, give me some virgin Mary conception and then we're good.
Lmao
Nah focus more on the child grooming that's what the hardcore Bayo community wants & likes. 😂👍
See! Woolie gaslit himself with his own joke! That was the entirety of the Elden Ring LP!
and the everhood one!
hell I don't even mind Jeane being nerfed to shit if they did it right like DMC5 did V is a weaker version of vergil but still has unique gameplay too it and not just plain nerfing it to shit.
V was a Stand user... But they kinda fucked up and gave Bayo 20 stands so there were none left for Jeanne.
Cheshire can stay slapstick and Viola learns some things from her mother instead.
Oh this, this is beautiful
OH BOY HERE WE GO! Been waiting on this for a good bit and I'm ready for that catharsis
1:30:40 - New favorite Woolie noise.
If they could make it happen id actually love to watch Woolie Vs Transformers Devastation
I feel Luka being Strider could have been acceptable if it was SPECIFICALLY Viola’s dad Luka who Singularity forces to take part in world destruction just to fuck with Viola who he knows is out there which would maybe give Singularity some much needed villain power and would make Viola’s fight against him way more emotionally resonant. Or hell any other option that kills the idea that Luka (the character who is supposed to be cool without world ending powers) needs to be equally as weird as Bayonetta…
I thought it was weird where right after we see Bayo getting horribly stabbed/fisted and shrug it of. You then see then see Jeanne stabbed with a sword, and she dies. It was such a weird framing device to have those scenes right next to each other.
This is less into the spiderverse and more multiverse of madness.
Did Kamiya really say that thing about fixating on one aspect of a character? There is a famous anecdote about his backlash against removing her glasses. Come on.
Thank you for having Suzi in the podcast as a guest!
Why do I love hearing people explain how a series stabs them in the back? I've never played Bayonetta and still watched this whole thing.
I dunno, probably that German word that describes feeling pleasure at the dismay of others.
Really wanna se 2nd part of this in 3 years (or 7) when bayo 4 drops
Feels like the wait for the next game will be shorter going off of whay Kamiya's been saying, but we've been waiting on that Ultra man send up game for like 5 years now so who the hell knows
Next one should already be in 2023, following the release of the spin-off
Continually amazed at Pat's inability to pronounce Jeanne's name correctly despite the game and a fellow French speaker constantly pronouncing it the official way.
Jeanne, cousin to Father Gascwanne
@@kot4311 and Claude from 3h
They've pronounced some words and names wrong for years. Must be a Quebec thing. Matt did it all the time too back on the old channel.
The combination of the story getting in the way with how bad it is and the switch choking to death on the game constantly really dragged this one down.
"Where's the universe where ENZO is Bayonetta?" I DIED. XD
(edit: I guess it is actually vague enough for different interpretations) I'm annoyed that people still forget that the reason Cereza was in Bayonetta 1 in the first place was part of Balder's plan to rewrite Bayonetta's history and have her awaken the left eye of darkness. There is no split timeline: the Cereza that goes back in time BECOMES Bayo 1 Bayonetta. If Cereza went to a different timeline then there's no reason for her to be in the story.
@Capra My interpretation was always that it wasnt just a flashback but Bayonetta's memories and Bayonetta experiencing two contradictory histories was what makes her collapse in that scene.
@@capra1531 it needs to be emphasized repeatedly that Bayonetta games have a very consistent track record of being really bad at conveying the stuff that sounded all cool and logical in Kamiya's head.
Every single one.
The entire Eyes of the World arc needs a flow chart to convey the temporal/causal bullshit invoked to try and get a working pair of Eyes to exist in a single point and time, for both the individual games and as a two-part whole.
@@capra1531 everyone sees the game in different lights.
I mean, I have the wild crackpot stance that the baton pass to Viola isn't simply her being the next Bayonetta, but rather Platinum's roundabout way of doting on and razzing Devil May Cry. Emphasis: wild and crackpot.
Exactly, you got it OP. Cereza was brought 500 years into the future so that Bayo 1 could become her role model and give her a reason to be brave and not "fear her fate". That Cereza doesn't get stabbed and sealed and gets 500 more years of history. She fights alongside Jeanne in the falling clock tower during the prologue. The added 500 years of power and two conflicting histories overwhelms Bayonetta in the present and awakens the Left Eye as the timeline stabilizes. Bayo doesn't have massive amnesia and knows who she is, and still opts to be Bayonetta.
Bayo 2 starts directly after Bayo 1 and drops the reveal that Balder was possessed by Loptr. The Lumen Sage getting possessed by Loptr in the end is still a stable time loop with Bayo 1.
You really should include Susie's channel in the video description. I wanted to go there and had to see her comment instead of having a link ready.
Regarding 1:31:09, is there a big Bayo 3 merch push? It’s crazy cynical, but could the whole story structure just be to sell lots of different Bayonetta merchandise?
Bayo was at MAX sociopathy, this time around.
Can we just get Dmc6 already?...
Uh... That's not gonna happen cuz Itsuno is working on DD2 (well I know its a joke...)
I've watched this live, then I've watched when the podcast came out, and then I'm gonna watch it again now, this segment is very good
With this alternate universe stuff, we could've had Lumen Sage Bayonetta
From the very first teaser trailer many years ago, this was my dream. Her getting torn in half would lead to a traditional Bayo and a Lumen version of Bayo
Woolie - I was so fearful when I heard Dante say "Royal Guard". My asshole clenched so hard it could crush diamonds!
Me - Oh I cant hit you now? Ok. *BUSTER* Well that was easy, ya ready to go back to your other styles now Dante?
How come we didn’t get lumen Sage Bayo? Or anything of the lumen sages
Just to add my voice to the chorus - Suzi fits on the show perfectly, and all parties if are interested in it, would love her as a regular cohost.
So glad you guys posted it in full lol. It was a great podcast. I still can't believe they managed to piss off Bayonetta/Platinum games fans, the apparent target audience of this whole thing lol. It's amazing how 3 people in 2 hours can tweak a few aspects of the game/narrative that would make the overrall experience MUCH better (not to say game-dev is easy, but my god did they fuck it up this time).
It's funny how 90% of the fanbase never asked for this. No multiverse shenanigans, no multiple Bayos, no new protag, no overly complex yet still unsatisfying main plot, etc. People just wanted a sequel to Bayo 2, not a bad copy-paste of other (much) better games.
Platinum believes themselves to be much more competent than they actually are. They need to go back to very linear character action games with children's story plots.
"Lu(ka)-Bu" is pretty strong.
I find it funny that the idea bayonetta 3 was changed due to dmc 5 influence makes even more sense when you take in to account viola's early marketing was a Vergil like character.
I think Bayo 3 is gonna end up as the DMC2 of the series: rushed, creatively scattered, ambitions curbed by tech that can't support it. I think of Bayo 3's open world idea and it reminds me of how DMC2 was meant to have tons of giant city levels that ended up scrapped due to limitations. I could easily see Bayo 4 being a prequel, only to jump back to modern times and ignore the cannon in 5. No one cares where DMC2 fits on the timeline
With the current state of platinum I don't think there will be a Bayonetta 4
Its wild ride for Bayonetta fans. Waiting for 8 years for a sequel, the whole Helena situation, then the game released which....did such a disservice to the characters and story. Cherry on top is the forced romance with Bayonetta and Luka, whom the first 2 games had no romantic chemistry besides Bayo treating Luka more of a pet than someone of interest.