Mono VS OSC? - Refractor VS RASA? PART 2 - DATA COMPARED!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- Come chill out with me for a few minutes and check out the differences between these two setups when comparing the data directly!
/ lukomatico
/ lukomatico
player-one-ast...
Setup 1:
Celestron RASA 8
IDAS NBZ UHS filter
Player One Uranus-C OSC
Setup 2:
SkyWatcher Esprit 120 Super Apo
ASI183MM Pro Mono cam
Astronomik 6nm S/H/O filters.
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I think it’s why back in the day the professional astronomers were so hyped about building bigger observatory instruments. Aperture rules. The refractor might have a very pure optical test, but over minutes of exposure it’s all about more photons. More signal means better signal to noise. So if you have a matched setup between pixel size of your ccd and f ratio and you are correctly sampling, bring in more photons in a shorter period of time and you are better.
If you have more stars visible it means your ‘signal’ part of your nebula is also better. This means that you can leverage that SNR to perform sharpening operations and you will end up with better contrast and details.
Morphological transformation for me, tighten up the stars and minimize the tons of smaller ones.
Well said James! - I agree with what you're saying mate for sure, I've often thought the exact same thing! 👍👍
Thanks for taking the time to leave such a well thought out comment my friend, it is appreciated! :-)
All the best & clear skies!
Hey, Luke! Less noisy the RASA setup, and overall more defined. The best: the speed. When you don’t have too much time, the RASA does the trick. Would be good to compare both rigs equipped with OSC. Great video as always! Cheers!
Thank you Enrique!! I hope you're keeping well my friend :-)
That'd be a good test for the camera and scope for sure, I'll just have to try and swap out the mono when Chloe's not looking and hope she doesn't notice! :-D
Thank you very much for watching, I hope you have a great weekend!
@@lukomatico likewise!!
Luke, I have really enjoyed this two-part series so far, but I'd love to see more where you swap cameras and their filters between the two telescopes and then compare the raw stacks; mono vs OSC on each telescope. Perhaps you could make part three the Uranus-C OSC on the Esprit vs the already captured RASA OSC data, and make part four the 183 mono on the RASA vs the already existing Esprit mono data. What say you? Cheers!
Thank you for the suggestion Anthony! - I'd like to test the OSC on the Esprit one day for sure, - I think the mono kit on the RASA may pose a couple of issues due to potential for tilt on the sensor from factory and not owning a tilt adapter for the 183 to correct it with, but it could be something to look into in the future for sure!
Thank you for watching :-)
Clear skies!
Great video again Luke, and offcourse there is more nebulosity and stars in the Rasa image because it pulls more light in at exactly the same time.
For a better comparison you should keep in mind the F of the Rasa and the Esprit, lets say, for example, the Rasa is f2 and the esprit F4, than you should take images lets say 2 minutes on the Rasa and 4 minutes on the Esprit, than it would be about equal the amount of photons that is pulled onto the sensor.
But as you say, two absolutely fabulous rigs and really shouldn't be compared, I would be happy with one or the other for sure
And maybe for a future video, switch the cameras ;-)
Hey Siegfried! I hope you are doing well buddy :-D
RE: the RASA speed - it's unfortunately extra difficult to compare the two systems in use here not just because of the nature of both scopes and their characteristics, f-ratio/focal length/aperture/sampling rate, but also the fact that when comparing OSC to mono, you've got to consider the fact that with mono you're using all the pixels all the time for any given filter, but with OSC you've only got 1/4 of the pixels capturing HA, and the other 3/4 capturing OIII! :-D all of a sudden, that extra speed of the RASA is more nullified making it a little fairer! :-)
I'd love to try the 183 on the RASA someday, but I'd need to figure out how to fit a tilt-adapter in the backfocus calculation (29mm overall) to make it usable as the RASA is completely intolerant of any tilt at all, perhaps a project for the future though!
Clear skies my friend, I hope you have a great weekend!
Very interesting comparison Luke, I am an OSC man and would love a RASA but funds wont allow that just now so I'll stick with my ZS73....
Nothing wrong with that Gary!! :-) That's a darn fine scope buddy, clear skies to you!
Great 2nd video on this, slightly off subject, but was wondering what software do you use to stack ? i have the 183 mc-pro and using deep sky stacker i cant always remove the amp glow !! And all my callibration frames are spot on, and usually max out exposure time not beyond 240 seconds. Thanks again.
Hey Andrew! I stack using astropixelprocessor these days, it works well enough, - the 183 is a bit temperamental though with dark calibration sometimes, I totally hear what you're saying mate I've had the same thing! :-)
Luke, I've just realised that you seem to be developing a lock down hair style. Looking back at your videos from a year ago your hair was much shorter. You do know that the barbers are open again don't you? Or have you been too busy building observatories and piers and new rigs. Sorry, just insanely jealous ;-)
Hahaha!! - It's a bit of both mate really :-P I'm probably gonna grow it out a bit, I used to have long hair a few years ago and it suited me quite well I reckon, the inbetween phase is a pain though lol!
Thank you for watching & clear skies mate!
Hi Luke thanks for taking the time to explain your thoughts on the two set-ups, I really would be pleased with either of the Images but for me the RASA and the OSC is the one i prefer
Hey Anthony! Hope you're having a super weekend buddy :-)
I really hope to figure out how to maximise my results from this RASA in the coming months, it's incredible fun to use and that's what really counts I guess! :-D
Thank you for watching, as always! Clear skies mate!
Yes, it would be fair to compare both set-up with the same camera (183, for example, without filters, just some black and white images). I've got a 115 apo (f/4,5 with the Starizona Apex-L) and a C9+Hyperstar (f/2,2), both with a 183C ou MM (I own both).
Hey there mate! - Thanks for your feedback, I think it could be a lot of fun to swap things around someday and do more testing for sure! :-) I hope you've been having some clear skies, it sounds like you've got a lot of great gear there to use!
Thanks Luke, that was good to get a real close up view of both data sets and your thoughts :) The whole time I was marvelling at how clean the Sony IMX585 sensor is, and now I've seen the data up close I'm just blown away by the RASA rig. Zoomed out its hard to call which again is interesting because these rigs are chalk and cheese!
Hey Chris mate! - It's a lovely sensor for sure, I bet it'd be even better during autumn/winter too when the ambient temps are a lot lower! :-)
I too was really pleased with how the RASA did when compared to such a quality 'frac too, amazing bit of kit!
Thank you for watching bud, and hope you have a great weekend!
Luke have you ever tried to get the Sii data with a Sii filter? I know it is not super efficiant to use a Sii filter on an OSC. But just wondered if you have tried it.
I'll be honest Rick, I've never gave it a go mate! It should totally work though, just a little inefficient as you mentioned 👍👍
Thanks for watching!
👏👏👏can i give an idea? ASI 533 MC pro vs ASI 585 MC... 😋
Thanks for watching mate! :-D If I can get my hands on a 533mc again someday I'd be happy to compare the two! :-)
Clear skies!
I'm impressed with that camera for the price, I know it's uncooled but what was the temp when you shot this?
Thank you mate!! I'm impressed with it too for sure, - RE: temps, it was around 17-20c ambient for the Player One, the 183 was running at -10c :-)
Hope that helps!
I was thinking about buying a mono 2600MM camera... But after this video, I had yet another time that there's not a difference for me. I thought that the OSC was the mono! I think I'm going with my original plan of the 2600mc. I've got a question: I've seen mono images of galaxies to have more homogeneous color compared to color ones. Is that so? Is really the transition to a color to another better? Because at the end of the day I might have seen images with different cameras. I don't know. What do you think at the end? To me color is much more convinent and also cost effective. But... Yeah. Will my colors have problems? Because, I mean, I don't think so.
Hey buddy! Sorry about the late reply, - my honest thoughts are that if you find OSC imaging appealing then you absolutely should go that route, it's very flexible these days and the modern cameras and filters we have available to us today have made the gap between mono and osc closer than ever I'd say.
I hope that helps you!
(I've personally tried both mono and colour many times over the years by the way, and I just have more fun with colour even though I'm totally proficient with both methods)
@@lukomatico Perfect! Thank you
Hey Luke - An interesting walkthrough of the two images. It's nice to see I'm not the only OSC die hard out there 🤣, I've never really felt the need to go Mono even though as you point out I know technically the images will be optimsed as mono, like you OSC just suits me better. Just out of interest how long were the RASA exposures? That thing must be crazy fast at F2.
Keep up the top work mate.
Ollie.:)
Thank you Ollie mate!! - Yeah I too really do subscribe to the OSC die-hard lifestyle haha, I love it! :-D
Loving the rasa, it really is rapid - RE: exposures, they were 2m long mate, cheers!
Thanks for watching!
Apples n pears.. love them both, but the time factor wins it for me
Aye mate! That f2 speed is no joke! :-) Lots of fun!
Hi Luke . Interesting ! I think it might be a good Part 3 to simply swap cameras between both Rigs and just compare the Raw Data image the Red Channel for a quick comparison . Would the higher background noise follow the camera over to the RASA ? And the ZWO was the cooled Camera ? Hmmm ./SRK
Hey Scott! - It's a good idea for sure but I'd be a little worried about swapping to the asi183 on the rasa as I have no tilt-adjuster for the cam, so it would very likely be pretty unusable without one unfortunately!
The ZWO was indeed cooled mate yeah - set to -10c, the Player One was running at roughly ambient or a few degrees above, so around +17-20c throughout.
Thanks for watching bud! Hope you have a great weekend!
Both great but I think I prefer the RASA
Thanks so much Simon! - It really does give out a good image! :-)
It would be interesting to do the same comparison but using the same camera on both setups (eg the OSC)
Good idea mate! I may have to see if I can talk Chloe into letting me swap out her mono setup for a while haha :-D I'm sure it'd make for an interesting comparison!
Clear skies!
So this is an F7 refractor vs an F2 RASA? Thats 3.61 stops of difference or put differently the F2 RASA collects the same light in 8% of the time the refractor does for the same exposure.
No disrespect but this is a waste of time to compare.
Also -- the RASA is not well-focused. The portions of the frame where the refractor looked sharper was due to poor focus.
Hey Bill,
I'm sorry you think this was a waste of time, in truth though, you are not taking much into consideration before saying that!
Generally speaking f2 is 'faster' than f5.4 but F-ratio by itself is nearly useless in astrophotography to describe speed - it's only really useful when comparing at matching pixel scales.
There's far more that determines the actual throughput of an optical system rather than a simple geometrically determined 'f-ratio' - without going into too much detail here in a TH-cam comment, try learning about etendue if you would like to understand more.
Re: focus, - I'm afraid you are wrong. Both systems were focused perfectly.
I do state in the video that due to the nature of the test from a technical standpoint it can never be truly fair! But, it does represent the kind of results you could expect from two fairly common approaches to deep sky imaging - the high quality refractor & mono setup, vs the wide & fast OSC setup.
Thanks for watching,
Luke
@@lukomatico I know etendue well. There is absolutely no way a 203mm aperture scope operating at F2 with a 43% CO is going to be bested by a 100mm aperture refractor at F7. The RASA even used the larger pixels of the two (not by a huge margin...). This is laughable.
Hey Bill!
It's 120mm aperture at F5.4, unobstructed design with almost perfect light transmission (99+%) landing on a monochrome sensor.
The rasa is 203mm aperture as you say, not clear aperture though of course, some lost area due to CO, lost light due to mirror reflectivity being around 95% if you're lucky on brand new coatings - still faster admittedly, but it's feeding it's photons onto an RGGB matrix OSC sensor - only 25% of the pixels are capable of sensing HA signal for example. - this brings things further into line, as demonstrated in the video - the results speak for themselves, it's not like the difference is drastic!
If we were comparing both systems using OSC, or both systems using Mono then sure, it'd be night and day. - but again, that was not the point of the video, nor the comparison being made - I expect you already know that though.
Hope you have a super weekend!
All the best,
Luke
I like them both but the RASA is a bit sharper of the 2 I reckon & with less noise to, how long were the subs on each set up?
5m subs on the Esprit, 2m on the rasa mate! - glad to hear another vote for the rasa by the way! :-D
@@lukomatico You're gonna get a RASA 11 I can see it happening soon lol 😅
Hi Luke,
Another fine comparison video. It would be interesting to see a comparison with the cameras switched. Yes, the S2 was cleaner and sharper than the Blue from the OSC, and as you said, that's to be expected. It's hard to pick which one is better, but for the ease of post-processing, the OSC wins.
Thanks so much Pat!! - I hope you are doing well my friend :-)
I really value your feedback mate, I know you also use both OSC and Mono setups so are very much familiar with the nuances of both approaches! :-) I definitely find the generally zero stress approach with the OSC to be appealing these days, I've became a very lazy astronomer since getting this observatory finished LOL!
Thanks for watching buddy, and I hope you have a super weekend!
Hi Luke, thanks for the good comparison!
Have you taken dark frames with the player one? I‘m thinking of getting one for myself.
By the way, I’m running a 183c on my RASA with no tilt issues. There is no need for tilt adapter on a 1 inch sensor.
Hey Christian! :-)
No darks taken, everything I've done with this cam has been without darks for reference 👍👍
Re: tilt adapter not needed on 1" sensor - you've been lucky with your sensor my friend, I needed to correct tilt on the Uranus cam which is an even smaller sensor - it was very noticeable until correction was complete 🙏
Thanks for watching!
I go back to my previous comment - bang for your buck. Are there differences? Yes. Are those differences large enough to warrant such a price disparity between cameras and filters? I’m sure some would say yes but for me not at all and honestly just reaffirms my decision to go with an OSC rather than a mono set up.
I hear ya buddy, for sure 👍 mono is great of course, no doubt about it - I just have more fun with OSC haha 😅 the results ain't bad either!
Interesting comparison Luke and as always very entertaining! As an owner of a 533 I’d love to see a comparison against the new mono version using both setups (hopefully ZWO or FLO read this!), as if I’m ever tempted by ‘the dark side’, I’d no doubt be looking at this as a contender. I guess I’m just a fan of the square format! 👍🏻 Noddy
Thanks so much Noddy! - those 533s are great sensors for sure, if the chance to test both arose I'd give it serious thought! :-)
Clear skies mate 👍👍
Nice one Luke, I'm OSC all day long. Fast, convenient and with good multiband filters can stand up well to the narrow band equivalent I think. One question, what happened to your ASI 2600 camera? I Don't see you using that anymore?
Hey Dave!! Hope you're well bud! :-)
Glad to hear of another fan of the OSC way! I love it too mate
RE: the 2600 - It's a shame but I had to sell the cam to raise funds to complete the obsy, overall it's worked out in the end though! :-)
Thanks for checking in dude - Have a great weekend! :-D
Hi Luke Thanks for the comparison, very interesting!
I also own the Esprit 120 and later, bought a Takahashi Epsilon 130D for wider field images.
Naturally, I also considered the Rasa, but went for the Epsilon, because I like to use a Mono camera with a filterwheel for automation, especially for those wide field images.
At 430mm, the focal length of the Epsilon is about the same as the Rasa and still very fast at f/3.3.
Hey there Daniel! - That's really interesting to hear mate, thank you for sharing! - I can absolutely see how the epsilon is a better fit in your situation, enjoying using mono etc :-) Definitely the right choice there, a beautiful pair of scopes you have!
Clear skies my friend!
Wow, this is so interesting - OSC has come a long way. These images are great - thank you, very thought provoking.
Glad you enjoyed it Peter!! - Thank you so much for taking the time to watch and comment :-)
Clear skies!
Great comparison video Luke. I really liked how both scope and camera had a difference. But as you indicated both images hold thier own. Clear skies man
Thank you bro!! - I'm glad you liked this one, I can only imagine how much fun the RASA and OSC would be from somewhere seriously dark like Alpha Scorpii! :-D
I'm gonna catch your latest vid now before bed, always so chilled to watch bro!
Clear skies!
Hi Luke, great comparison and observations between the two sets of data. Agree with everything you explained on the RASA data over the Esprit data, even watching through TH-cam the RASA appeared to provide the better looking data overall. Great content and looking forward to seeing the RASA in action again in due course.Clear skies.
Thanks so much Jon! - I'm glad it came across well enough on the video so that people have been able to judge the shots for themselves too, I feel like by doing the process of creating this kind of thing I end up learning bits of info nearly every time, so it's great fun and very rewarding! :-)
Thank you for watching and supporting my friend!!
If you ask me they both look good... You are not looking at an image 5x1 you are looking at them with the human eye and they both work. Whatever is less expensive and it does the job thats for me . Keep videos coming
Thanks Steve! - definitely good and bad points to both styles/scopes but the rasa & osc combo punches well above it's weight! I'm happy with it for sure 👍👍
Hi Luke, I feel the Rasa gives a more refined image and is more pleasing to the eye, that said both images are something we would all be happy with. Clear Skies, Ron
Thank you very much Ron! I must admit I really do have a soft spot for the rasa now, haha! :-) thanks for watching mate!!
Are the filters the same bandpass❓
Good question Olly! - They are not mate, the OSC filter (IDAS NBZ UHS) is around 10-12nm each for OIII and HA, the Astronomik S/H/O filters are 6nm each however.
Cheers!
@@lukomatico Hi Luko… I only ask as I’ve just started using Optolong 3nm for mono imaging with my Esprit and 2600mm and they make a huge difference to the quality of subs I’m used to, I did use Optolong 6.5nm previously. I just wondered what effect differing bandpass might have on your comparison. I found these last 2 videos of yours really interesting and food for thought. Glad the RASA has worked out for you 👍🏻
Thank you for posting this comparison, Luke. It’s quite interesting the amount of signal in the OSC image, taking advantage of the faster optics. This comparison shows that today its perfectly possible to produce very high quality images, comparable to mono, with OSC cameras. The combination of fast f-ratios, low read noise and high QE for today’s OSC cameras allows it.
Well said Alfredo!! The gap between mono and osc is closer than ever in my opinion, what a great time we live in! :-)
Thnaks for watching!
great video as usual
Glad you enjoyed it mate!
Hi Luke, I'm glad to be back in the "community" :) Very interesting video as always!!!
Thank you so much for giving your support again David!! - I really do appreciate it mate, it makes a real difference in my life :-)
Very glad you liked the video by the way!
Hope you have a superb weekend buddy, all the best!
Luke
Thank you for this one Luke! It really helps listening to your train of thought as you continue to offer comparative insights, while always trying to be as objective as possible. It’s obvious you’ve quickly grown attached to your RASA. What exposure time(s) do you find yourself gravitating to most often?
Your Hubble Palette images are amazing and your videos on post processing OSC extremely helpful; I’d love to see a more in-depth version of your technique in the future. Keep up the great work, I know coming up with new content is often challenging, but you seem to have the secret for new, fresh, and creative videos. Kudos to you mate!
Hey Joe! - Thank you mate, as always!! :-)
RE: the exposures I'm using with the RASA - my latest experiments are with 5m exposures at 0 gain, - giving really interesting results! I was previously using 2m long exposures however at a gain of 200 for my cam.
On the note of OSC hubble palette tutorials, have you tried my latest version? (4 months ago-ish) That's a pretty good workflow I think! :-)
Thank you for watching and clear skies!
I find that sometimes using line scan extractions enables a better data comparison for contrast, signal, and noise assessments. I make an RGB image using pixel math for images that are approximately registered. I then open them in Image J (freeware) and do a line extraction that pulls out the R, G, and B channels, where you can exactly compare data. I have some videos on my channel that show how I have done this to compare narrowband filters.
Thanks for the tip Brent! :-) I appreciate that my friend, - I've just gone ahead and subscribed to your channel by the way! Keep up the good work of sharing with others!
Clear skies man, and I hope you have a great weekend!
4:25, there appears to be more range of signal in the Rasa, the Esprit looks flatter when you look at the shades of grey around any particular area in the nebulosity.
Good eye Dave! - there's a notable difference between the two for sure, it was interesting to compare! :-)
Thanks for watching bud 👍👍
Thanks, Luke that was a good insight into both data sets both were really good but I think the Rasa is the one I prefer
Cheers Sean, I'm glad you liked it mate! - after looking at both data sets like this I must admit the RASA data is mighty impressive! :-)
Thank you for watching and giving your support! Clear skies :-D
Good comparison Luke, both these questions are relevant to me, as an Esprit 120 owner, I’m a bit biased, but I can recognize the benefits of a wide aperture f number like the rasa and still appreciate the good quality of both scopes in their own right! The cameras you mentioned seem to produce subs of nearly equal quality! I too have always liked the idea of OSC due to the time I have to spare, however, recently, I’ve come round to the way of thinking that mono is definitely where I’m heading, as I’m going to be giving more time to this hobby and I will probably want the best in everything I can get! There lies the problem! What camera?? 🤣 what extra am I getting for the 2600 mono over the 183 or the 533 monos ?
Or should I be saying what will I Not be getting if I don’t go for the 2600? Is the extra cash really worth it? Something to think about! Clear skies Luke 👍
Hey Simon mate!! - Totally agree that if you are gonna be happy spending multiple nights per project then mono is the best choice overall if total image quality is the goal! :-)
RE: which cam, well - if it were me, the 2600 is the cam to go for, no doubt :-) The 533 is also a belting camera, basically identical sensor tech to the 2600's but a bit more of an awkward sensor size/shape overall. - 183, good cam of course, but not on the same level as the 2600 IMO!
Hope that helps buddy!
@@lukomatico Thanks Luke, yeah it does help, cheers! I sort of knew that’s what I’d be doing!! Just committing the cash😬👍
Fun is the key word in your video :)
I think your results show that once you reach a certain level in equipment.. the differences start to blur. Personally, I do think when it comes to classic SHO.. mono is still the way to go.. but for broadband.. osc is more fun than lrgb. CS!
Hey James!! Hope you are doing well buddy! :-)
That's a really interesting couple of points you raise there, and very true I reckon too!! Thanks so much for the thoughtful feedback man, it's always interesting to digest such great points! :-)
Hope you have a superb weekend mate!
Clear skies!
@@lukomatico Thanks Luke. Same to you :)
Great video, that RASA is an amazing piece of kit
Agreed Eric! I love all my kit but the RASA is something extra-special! :-) Glad you liked the video mate!
Great video again Luke. I am glad you mentioned the focus shift on the blue channel as most people shooting OSC dont know that the blue channel (OIII) will typically be slightly out of focus which is a very common phenomena shooting planetary images too.
I didn't know and I was surprised to hear that indeed! hummm, interesting...
Thanks so much Bill!! :-) It's one of those things you can't avoid in a lot of circumstances I guess, so I thought it worth highlighting and I'm glad you agree! :-) Back when I first started using a dual-narrowband filter and was manually focusing with a bahtinov mask you could see the slight per-channel defocus represented in the spikes, that's what first drew my attention to it!
Thank you for watching bro, as always!
Hey David! - It's an interesting phenomena to note, but not game-breaking for sure I reckon! :-) almost invariably it's the Red/HA channel that does the heavy lifting during processing anyway, so as long as that's sharp, you're usually set to make a good capture on deep-sky images! :-)
Clear skies mate!
Very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain your unbiased opinion on both these images. Clear skies......
Thank you Peter! It was interesting for me to compare the data like this, I hope it was OK to watch too! :-) clear skies mate!
@@lukomatico Hi Luke, I've watched quite a few astro videos on TH-cam and yes it was great to watch. The pace, for me, is spot on, as is the amount of information.
I appreciate some viewers would prefer a faster pace and perhaps more techie information. It must be difficult to find the right balance to please everyone.
One thing I didn't feel necessary on this particular edit though was pictures in picture. It cluttered the screen at times when I was trying to look at your awesome images. That's just my opinion and I hope you consider it as positive feedback.
I watch every vid you post now and can't wait for the next one. I can see you've put an enormous effort into this channel and I sincerely hope it goes well for you. I'm sure it will because your content and delivery is spot on.
Best regards and clear skies
Pete
Thank you for the feedback Peter!! I appreciate it mate, I did wonder about the picture in picture thing myself too, I reckon I had it set a little big haha!! :-D
I reckon the PIP is a good thing on the whole though as it allows the viewer to connect a bit more with the video, rather than just pure narration perhaps? Either way, thank you again for taking the time to share your feedback mate! Honestly I do value it and I really appreciate your support buddy, cheers!! :-)
All the best and I hope you have a super weekend,
Luke 👍👍