Hi folks. I am never going to pilot a manned aircraft, too old for one thing, But it strikes me that recording ones flight for later analysis is an excellent way of boosting the learning process. Putting it upon TH-cam must also help that and of course there is great value for other student and maybe even qualified pilots. It's also very noticeable that the quality of the comments is exceptionally high, unlike on some other non flying TH-cam channels. I want to congratulate Rory on doing his videos and also the outstanding audience to them. Kudos to all of you. BobUK.
Hi Bob, this is a very kind comment and it's greatly appreciated, thank you. I do find it useful to share as much as I can and I'm always grateful to the people who take the time to watch and leave constructive comments as it helps me and others too. Cheers, Rory
Late to the party here, but as a PPL student on solo circuit consolidation I had this exact occurrence happen to me. Only in my case, the joining aircraft was a LOT closer (bearing in mind that your camera makes things look further away) and approached from the left before turning downwind JUST in front of me. The FISO came to meet me once I returned to the stand and mentioned that my circuit pattern had been very tight, to the point of being oval. My bad and lesson learned. Recently subbed to your channel so have plenty to get through - loads of inspiration/motivation for me to get the PPL finished. Thanks!
A very honest and open assessment . It’s a pity more pilots are not so willing to divulge their near misses, because we can all learn from not only our mistakes but other peoples mistakes too . Looking forward to your next video , and welcome home Lizzy .
David Cartwright thanks very much David. I think it’s always going to be difficult to admit mistakes - I certainly don’t find it easy - but I have gained useful insight from others who have shared so think I should too. There were a few elements to this trip to I thought it was worth a share. Thanks again and it’s great to have Lizi back.
This is an excellent video. In Scuba Diving, as well as aviation, it is great to acknowledge mistakes or incidents , identify causes, spread the knowledge to prevent other people having similar incidents, or worse.
@@SimonAmazingClarke Oh go on then!I started turning the wrong way in the overhead once, luckily I realised and managed to correct the situation but these are easy mistakes to make.
@@RoryOnAir you know that what your instructor gets you to do in your lessons is absolutely correct. Pre solo we were catching up a Cessna 150. He got me to fly a 360 for spacing. During one of my early solo flights I needed spacing, the curcuit was getting busy. As I negan the turn, and managed to speak to ATC, I realised that several aircraft were in the downwind wind. I flew up the outside of the downwind, and rejoined it at the upwind end when the circuit was clear. I thought I was doing right but the atc guy tore a strip off my instructor.
@@SimonAmazingClarke Well you lived to tell the tale and learned something from it. I think that's a pretty good outcome, especially when you're a student pilot.
Thanks for this Rory. As others have said, I think it's great you have posted this without trying to take a side and instead looked at what everyone involved could do to improve. I think the thing I find most interesting here is the difference in expectations about airfield/circuit departures. It seems some pilots are trained to always exit the circuit before setting a heading whereas others are trained to exit on the most suitable leg of the circuit as you have been (this is also the approach I have been taught) and many are not aware of the other method. I don't think there's anything wrong with either approach, it is just a matter of preference and knowing both methods will help everyone improve their awareness within the circuit.
Dale Edwards yes, I agree completely Dale about the issues over different departure techniques. Hopefully people will see the ‘other’ way from this and give it a try.
Thanks to you and the other pilot for taking the time to debrief what happened - some very useful learning points. I would also have departed the circuit on the downwind leg so will announce that intention in future for the benefit of other aircraft who may not be expecting it.
A bit late to the party, but very educational having seen the video in which the miss was featured. It's interesting there are differing thoughts on departures. I've done straight out departures when it's the heading I'm going, and other times have gone around the circuit to peel off in the direction I want to go. I think your GPS tracklog tells a story in itself - had you tracked the overlayed circuit (at circuit height), this near air miss wouldn't have happened at all. Tight circuits are all well and good in bad vis and on approaches, perhaps, to keep away from faster aircraft behind, but in departure sticking to the prescribed circuit at the correct circuit height would be beneficial to everyone. Keep up the great videos Rory - they're always great to watch!
combatwombat71 thanks for watching and for your fair comment. I agree that my error was making the left turn too tight. As I think I said in the debrief, I was keen to keep my return journey home as short as poss to minimise airsickness for my pax but I should have taken a bit longer getting away from the zone. All good learning experience.
Great video Rory Another opportunity for me to learn from your experiences. I found i had a similar problem on my first solo land away, I have been taught to fly a tight circuit and found myself flying well inside of the aircraft in front of me. I slowed as much as I could but was still gaining on him. I had no choice but to widen my circuit by a considerable amount so as not to cut in front. However this put me much further away from the runway that I felt comfortable with. As for departing the circuit I would have done exactly as you did, if departing in a southerly direction with a northerly track. Surely what you did is no different than if you wanted to climb into the overhead, to set course. Would the other pilot have not factored this in? Another thing I have gained from this debrief, is visually seeing the difference in take off performance of a microlight. The trusty old cessna 152 would have still been climbing to 500ft on the upwind leg by the time you managed to turn downwind.
Ha! If I’d know my comment was going to make the next video I’d have waffled less :) Love it, great debrief and a good explanation of the human factors involved. I’d have 100% also flown to departure from the end of the downwind leg too (and in fact I did just that last time I flew from Sleap off the same runway!). Lots of good learning points in this that will actually change how I fly departures/OHJs from now on. Tea owed! Looking forward to the Shobdon video (one of my favorite airfields).
Mark Sumner ha ha - I remember the rocker Joe Walsh who famously sang the classic rock hit ‘Rocky Mountain Way’ saying, “if I knew I was was going to have to sing this for the rest of my life I probably would have written something else.” I’m delighted you have got something useful from and thanks for your comment. I never refuse a tea and the Shobdon edit is coming together nicely.
Great video. It’s very clear to me that although your intention was to depart the circuit you had not done that yet and nothing wrong with departing downwind. It’s the responsibility of the joining aircraft to give way to those already in the circuit. If DX did not have you visual he should have climbed back into the overhead. No doubt in my mind.
Excellent debrief and very honest. I am curious about the Join procedure being across the end of a Runway, rather than overhead and then on the downwind side of the circuit as I was taught (many moons ago) here in Australia. Maybe I have missed something here. I also think you nailed it 07:00 re your comment about gliding from any point. My instructor hammered me about flying wide circuits (in a warrior) at any time and also chastising others that did. If you get an engine quit in the circuit at least you have a chance. All in all an excellent and informative video. keep it up
Paul Radford cheers Paul, thanks for watching. The overhead join procedure here is a bit different by the sounds of it and does involve crossing the upwind numbers at 1000 QFE usually so I would say correctly in the case of the other aircraft. I’m glad you agree about the tight circuit though. Cheers, Rory
Martin Steers thanks Martin, nice to hear from you. I’ve been doing this since around the time I stopped doing the radio show. I couldn’t handle doing both because they both take a lot of time and I wanted a new challenge. People still ask me ‘how is the show going?’ I hope you’re well.
Martin Steers thank you. It’s nice to do some kind of broadcasting, even if it’s a very different kind of studio! Good luck with the awards. I’m sure they will keep going from strength to strength under your stewardship.
Another very informative video Rory, an open and honest debrief of what you possibly can do better and have learned from this experience. We are always learning especially in Aviation , situation can change in split second. Well done 👍. Also a mention how it can all change in blink of eye, A fatal air crash in Oxford . Prayers for the families of the pilot and passenger 🙏🏽. God bless and safe flying to all
Well done Rory! A well presented and non emotional review of what could have been a very close shave. Having recently had an even closer encounter with a glider, I too have invested in an electronic conspicuity unit here in the UK. I look forward to seeing & hearing about your experiences with your system. Let’s hope these affordable and potentially life saving gadgets keep us all safer in the future. ✈️
hello Rory good video joining the circuit is always intresting and as many opinions as there are pilots. but just a point as regards leaving sleap sits in a matz and has a standard departure which is to take of fly a standard circuit and climb in the downwind leg. change frequency to shawbury. to obtain service, squark code, and a matz penatration clearance. shawbury is usualy very busy and you cant always get a word in so to speak (pun not intended) you need to allow yourself time and of you go. keep vids coming we all learn from them
Hi Rory, first time watcher of your channel. I have around 300 hours mostly in sep. It seems pretty clear that your choice of effective "cutting" into the circuit was the primary cause of this. Knowing there was another aircraft it would be good airmanship to follow the circuit as strictly and as closely as possible so that all other aircraft should expect you to be. As to filing an airprox, I would say definitely file one! I filed an airprox with a 737 in class D airspace once - it's a useful process to go through and an independent summary of events.
Ian Taylor Hi Ian, welcome to the channel and thanks for your comment. I’m interested that you’ve come to this conclusion as it’s not really in line with the majority of others options. That doesn’t make it any less valid though! I do hope you’ll subscribe and check put some of my other videos. Rory
Bit late to the party, the way you fly your circuit departures is the same we are taught in Australia. Eg leave on the circuit on the leg that is closest to the direction of travel. I tend to make additional calls if I hear someone joining near me so agree with your debrief item there. Interesting seeing your future in that video with Helicentre so in the lime light.
A very interesting video, it’s good to watch something different and especially about a previous video! At 1100 I’ll have a lesson in the ikarus - doing climbing and descending turns in the circuit! Let’s hope we don’t come across anything like this today. Great video though!
I was taught (here in Switzerland) to announce - or request, if ATC available - a "climb on downwind" if I choose to do so I haven't seen or heard anybody here on YT using this phraseology though. Could this have a deconflicting potential in the scenario you outlined? BTW I would've exited the ATZ in the same way as you did. Getting out and then around exposes you to more trouble (e.g. flying in the vicinity of an airport but not in RT contact) than it's worth it IMHO. Great video and great reaction - thanks for sharing!
Fabrizio Albonico thanks for the comment Fabrizio and I’m glad you enjoyed the video. I think that would be normal with a controlled airport as ATC would give you instructions after departure. At uncontrolled fields like Sleap it’s down to pilot discretion.
A great educational video, however one you didn't have to make. There was a problem and you both dealt with it. Keep up the good work and I look forward to watching another epic Rory On AIr video.
Hi Rory, as David mentions below we all really appreciate you sharing this. As I think you know I also flew from Barton with Mainair for a number of years and was also taught to keep within gliding distance as much as poss on climbout in case of EFATO, and with my Gyro we also tend to do the he same as we have a lower glide ration so typically do tighter circuits and steeper final approaches. I don't think GA traffic or those used to flying GA appreciate the performance characteristics and defensive flying which we're taught when flying Microlights or Gyros. Looking again at the footage and the GPS trace I can't help but think the other aircraft was still not conforming to circuit pattern i.e. left hand for 18 as they appear to be flying in the opposite direction, not normal on a join across the downwind numbers which would have inevitably positioned them ahead of you. We don't want incessant RT with calls all over the place (my pet hate "just turning what does that mean?) in a controlled field (even with just Ground Service) because this clogs up RT for everyone else so agree that you didn't need to call crosswind or 'early' downwind - especially as you were climbing to depart the ATZ above circuit height. Turning to the right and descending was totally the correct manoeuvre. in this case. Just a bit about human factors, if you were that concerned about your Pax maybe it would have been a good call to not try to fly him back to Barton or indeed to have returned to Barton when he was queasy flying down to Sleap. Human Factors have been shown to be a major cause of incidents and to cloud the judgement of the most experience pilot. I've returned just after departure a number of times with my other half after she got anxious about turbulence - this action meant she continued to fly with me in the future and we carefully planned departures and arrivals to avoid the worst of either thermal activity or WX. Hope to catch-up with you at some point soon! Thanks again, Jason.
Hi Jason, thanks for your considered comment here. I tend to agree with you about not over doing it on the RT and clogging things up, but perhaps as it was relatively quiet and I couldn't see him, this might have been a good time to make a call. As for the human factors, I am well aware of the dangers of 'get there itis' and I wouldn't have continued to Sleap had myself and Jolon not been happy to continue. I have cut other flights short when the passenger was displaying worse symptoms. (One of those flights is on here). Anyway, Jolon said he enjoyed it and would fly again happily (having taken some travel sickness pills first) so that's a win. Cheers, Rory
Nice work mate, v insightful. Think I'd err on the side of your thinking if where you want to go is behind you, and whack it down the downwind. Otherwise you'd end up doing Sleap to Barton via Heathrow. Nice tan btw 😎😎
Hi Rory, thanks for the debrief video and interesting seeing yours and the conflicting pilots viewpoints. As I said in my original comment, as a Microlight pilot we have to be careful about our rate of climb as we can easily achieve circuit height even before the end of the runway and this can disrupt others in the circuit. The circuit is the most congested part of the ATZ so I’d personally not fly back through it without making my intentions clear on the radio. Could have called ‘taking off and climbing into downwind’ as you left to improve situational awareness, or on takeoff turned right through the deadside where no one else should have been, or take a wider circuit to avoid anyone in the defined circuit pattern. I think I’d probably take the latter option in most cases (noise abatement permitting); fly the normal circuit direction but take it wider to avoid anyone else. Anyway, a good video, you made a good call to turn away from the conflict, and I personally recommend investing in pilot aware or similar to improve S.A., but as ever no replacement for the mk1 eyeball. Happy flying
Hi Rory, I've come across your channel a few times and have been enjoying your recent videos while you work on your Heli license. Out of curiosity was an Airprox filed for this incident?
AeroMad91 hi, welcome! I’m glad you’ve been enjoying the videos. I thought I mentioned in the airprox decision in this video actually, maybe I didn’t in the end. No, I didn’t file one as I was advised by my instructor that is wasn’t close enough to warrant it.
@@RoryOnAir Apologies, you're absolutely right. You did mention it and I completely missed it *smacks head on desk*. Completely understand the reasoning. Thanks for responding, hope you are keeping safe and well!
Thanks for the clear assessment. The requirement to depart in circuit was a big factor here. I’m not a fan of doubling up circuit traffic (who would be!). At Clench (which is not a busy strip) departures are straight out, or if not going in that direction, overhead. Arrival is overhead at 1500 ft QFE (500 ft circuit) and departure at 1000 ft QFE. In busy moments the aircraft would then be stacked at 500/1000/1500 in circuit/departures/arrival thereby reducing approx risk. A tight climb to the overhead also gives the benefit of gliding back in case of engine failure.
MrAlwaysBlue that’s really interesting and a new way of doing things to me. It goes to show that there are multiple options and ways people have been taught which was highlighted by the other pilot. Barton can be very busy but departing from the circuit works fine usually, we are limited in the overhead by Manchester CAS at 2000. Inbound aircraft tend to arrive at 1800 QFE and outbound depart about 1500 QNH. Thanks for the comment.
Thanks for posting Rory and the other pilot too, all helpful stuff, I applaud you both. When with other pilots I have had several close calls, through, I hasten to add, no fault of our own, but blame isn't the issue, learning is key. Your circuit may have been a bit tight - but microlight, glider and helicopter circuits tend to be don't they (not sure of the airfield in question's exact requirements)? Your exit of the circuit, notwithstanding? Was, literally textbook (as you pointed out and as I've been shown, when with other microlight pilots - I'm pondering if NPPL & PPL have a disconnect in that regard?). Can I summarise, what we've gleaned from this near miss (which wasn't closer than 500' so thus didn't require reporting to CAA as a NM) is that, a couple more radio calls from you would have helped? And the other pilot being more familiar with the airfield and microlight/tighter circuit and circuit exit procedures would have helped too? Im assuming your position was that of the lower aircraft too? In closing, is it me, or are these incidents happening more often that they did 20-30yrs ago? I think that aircraft ident software/hardware sounds great and 'moving maps' are also helpful...but....... .....When my dad first flew with someone with early GPS, a younger, newly qualified pilot, circa late 1990s, the young guy asked dad what he thought of the, then crude GPS. To which my father replied that he thought that it was clever, but that the young pilot fixated on it too much instead of looking out of the window and listening out, plus signalling his intentions. Prophetic? I think that the new tech can be a blessing and/or a curse? Although it may not have been an issue in this case.
Muso Seven really interesting points and yes, I think you’re spot on in your analysis of the things both pilots could have done differently. I will talk More and fly slightly wider circuits in future. I’m a fan of Tech, but I agree there is a risk it takes out into the cockpit. I actually think pilotaware or similar would have helped me see DX sooner in this case though. Thanks for your considered comment Muso.
Rory On Air you're welcome Rory, I'm no expert, and it's easier to comment when not in the heat of battle, so to speak. We've all learned from your analysis. And we all make mistakes - I know that I do - it's the human condition. I can see a time when aircraft ident equipment could become mandatory and if done correctly, then hopefully it will be a good aid to safety. When my dad started flying, radio was optional, hand held Mics and no headset facility. Thank goodness things do move on/improve. Hopefully folk will be able to cope with the extra workload?
My opinion, you did everything right. You instantly applied corrective actions in the most sensible manner, and I would never criticise someone for flying a tight circuit. Personally whenever I hear someone on the radio in a similar position (similar enough that I'm worried) I'll always give an immediate position report, but its understandable that you didn't. On the other hand, I think it's absolute bullshit that the Pilot didn't expect you to turn downwind. What kind of pilot wouldn't depart on the appropriate circuit leg? I say this as someone who typically tries to get the hell away from the circuit ASAP (i.e. won't set course in the overhead) , but what's the alternative? Fly a loop around the ATZ, who would expect that? Not sure if just them covering their arse, but it's ridiculous. It's 100% on the joining pilot to be sure they are not conflicting with an aircraft in the circuit, although as always better to be alive than correct. In any case, good work and love the vids
Hi Rory, great video as ever and thanks for your comprehensive debrief on your near miss. One humble, well meaning comment I would like to make with regard to your excellent videos is that because you are busy flying the A/C and doing your commentary, you do seem a bit too distracted and perhaps not looking out as often as perhaps you should. Of course you have to check your panel and change frequencies and Squawks etc and it's difficult to do all that and look out too. This is an observation and not a criticism. Your videos have inspired me to go for the NPPL after a break of forty odd years and I llove the look of the EV97 with it's splendid views. Fly safe guys and keep them highly entertaining videos coming.
I'm irrationally triggered that my comment wasn't mentioned. To be fair I was just asking what the hell happened. I'm glad you made this video. If I ever get to actually flying this kind of thing is useful.
I can’t see any error with your intended departure, or actions Rory. You took off and entered downwind for a departure in the opposite direction. I’d have (and have done, on many occasions) made the same manoeuvre. Surely someone joining overhead, descending dead side and entering crosswind at circuit height has to be aware of, 1/ traffic taking off below him, and 2/ traffic already established in the circuit. Unless I’m missing something with your positioning, whilst taking off you would have been looking for traffic entering crosswind, (above you) and a pilot positioned in crosswind would (should) be looking for traffic taking off. It is the pilot positioned in the crosswind that should have had a better view and capability of avoiding confrontation as he should have better knowledge of what’s currently going on in the circuit, (because of his much better view and traffic awareness from his overhead join). I prefer overhead joins for this very reason, to enable me to see what’s going on below me as I enter (and fit in to) traffic already established in the circuit.
Kevin Chilton I think you’re spot on here Kevin. It’s easier to see aircraft from above I find and aircraft joining the circuit have to conform with the circuit and give way to others already in it. Thanks for watching as always.
@@RoryOnAir We've probably flown past each other a few times - thats just how it is. What sometimes plays on my mind is when I do see something on pilotaware or the old xaon that says something like 1.1 miles 0.9 miles 0.6 miles 0.5 miles, 0.4, 0.4, 0.5, 0.6 and I don't get them in sight. It scares the living daylights and without the device I probably wouldn't ever have known about it. I suggest you do get the skyecho hooked up but it can scare the crap out of you sometimes.
@@dr_jaymz yes, I’d prefer to have it but when you’re hiring other aircraft it’s a bit trickier sometimes. Spotting traffic is a challenge at times but you just have to do what you can.
18:15 "Hopefully I'll bump into you in the future" Interesting choice of words 🤣
Hi folks. I am never going to pilot a manned aircraft, too old for one thing, But it strikes me that recording ones flight for later analysis is an excellent way of boosting the learning process. Putting it upon TH-cam must also help that and of course there is great value for other student and maybe even qualified pilots. It's also very noticeable that the quality of the comments is exceptionally high, unlike on some other non flying TH-cam channels. I want to congratulate Rory on doing his videos and also the outstanding audience to them. Kudos to all of you. BobUK.
Hi Bob, this is a very kind comment and it's greatly appreciated, thank you. I do find it useful to share as much as I can and I'm always grateful to the people who take the time to watch and leave constructive comments as it helps me and others too. Cheers, Rory
Late to the party here, but as a PPL student on solo circuit consolidation I had this exact occurrence happen to me. Only in my case, the joining aircraft was a LOT closer (bearing in mind that your camera makes things look further away) and approached from the left before turning downwind JUST in front of me. The FISO came to meet me once I returned to the stand and mentioned that my circuit pattern had been very tight, to the point of being oval. My bad and lesson learned. Recently subbed to your channel so have plenty to get through - loads of inspiration/motivation for me to get the PPL finished. Thanks!
Cheers Ben - glad you got something useful from this and thanks for subscribing. Good luck with your PPL training too.
A very honest and open assessment . It’s a pity more pilots are not so willing to divulge their near misses, because we can all learn from not only our mistakes but other peoples mistakes too . Looking forward to your next video , and welcome home Lizzy .
David Cartwright thanks very much David. I think it’s always going to be difficult to admit mistakes - I certainly don’t find it easy - but I have gained useful insight from others who have shared so think I should too. There were a few elements to this trip to I thought it was worth a share. Thanks again and it’s great to have Lizi back.
This is an excellent video. In Scuba Diving, as well as aviation, it is great to acknowledge mistakes or incidents , identify causes, spread the knowledge to prevent other people having similar incidents, or worse.
Thanks very much Simon. I appreciate the comment. :)
@@RoryOnAir I could tell you my hair raising, and dangerous, story about me going the wrong way on the downwind leg at Barton
@@SimonAmazingClarke Oh go on then!I started turning the wrong way in the overhead once, luckily I realised and managed to correct the situation but these are easy mistakes to make.
@@RoryOnAir you know that what your instructor gets you to do in your lessons is absolutely correct. Pre solo we were catching up a Cessna 150. He got me to fly a 360 for spacing. During one of my early solo flights I needed spacing, the curcuit was getting busy. As I negan the turn, and managed to speak to ATC, I realised that several aircraft were in the downwind wind. I flew up the outside of the downwind, and rejoined it at the upwind end when the circuit was clear. I thought I was doing right but the atc guy tore a strip off my instructor.
@@SimonAmazingClarke Well you lived to tell the tale and learned something from it. I think that's a pretty good outcome, especially when you're a student pilot.
Thanks for this Rory. As others have said, I think it's great you have posted this without trying to take a side and instead looked at what everyone involved could do to improve.
I think the thing I find most interesting here is the difference in expectations about airfield/circuit departures. It seems some pilots are trained to always exit the circuit before setting a heading whereas others are trained to exit on the most suitable leg of the circuit as you have been (this is also the approach I have been taught) and many are not aware of the other method. I don't think there's anything wrong with either approach, it is just a matter of preference and knowing both methods will help everyone improve their awareness within the circuit.
Dale Edwards yes, I agree completely Dale about the issues over different departure techniques. Hopefully people will see the ‘other’ way from this and give it a try.
Thanks to you and the other pilot for taking the time to debrief what happened - some very useful learning points. I would also have departed the circuit on the downwind leg so will announce that intention in future for the benefit of other aircraft who may not be expecting it.
Mark Keely excellent Mark - I’m glad you found the video helpful. Thanks for watching!
You have to love the arm chair pilot comments! Great debrief dude.
Private Pilot Vlogs you certainly do! Thanks mate. 👍
A bit late to the party, but very educational having seen the video in which the miss was featured. It's interesting there are differing thoughts on departures. I've done straight out departures when it's the heading I'm going, and other times have gone around the circuit to peel off in the direction I want to go. I think your GPS tracklog tells a story in itself - had you tracked the overlayed circuit (at circuit height), this near air miss wouldn't have happened at all. Tight circuits are all well and good in bad vis and on approaches, perhaps, to keep away from faster aircraft behind, but in departure sticking to the prescribed circuit at the correct circuit height would be beneficial to everyone. Keep up the great videos Rory - they're always great to watch!
combatwombat71 thanks for watching and for your fair comment. I agree that my error was making the left turn too tight. As I think I said in the debrief, I was keen to keep my return journey home as short as poss to minimise airsickness for my pax but I should have taken a bit longer getting away from the zone. All good learning experience.
Excellent debrief Rory and fair play for sharing. Another top quality production. Lee
Lee Russell thanks a million Lee. 👍
Well done Rory - an honest and full assessment which will hopefully help us all be safer in the air.
Paul Higgins thanks Paul, that’s kind of you to say.
Great lessons learned video Rory. I hope many pilots are doing thorough debriefs after flying - always something to be gained from it.
Sam Huish thanks Sam, there doesn’t seem to be much of it on TH-cam but I always enjoy it when I see them.
Hello Rory. An excellent video - I admire the transparency. I’m sure others will benefit from this. All the best - Paul
Paul Markman thanks very much Paul, I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Still a great video Rory. God to put it out there on exactly what happend.. Safe flying and hope to see you at Sywell somepoint!
j reilly30 thanks very much. I’m sure I’ll be back to Sywell. Great airfield. 👍
@@RoryOnAir do make it public when you are going one day 👍👌
Great video Rory
Another opportunity for me to learn from your experiences.
I found i had a similar problem on my first solo land away, I have been taught to fly a tight circuit and found myself flying well inside of the aircraft in front of me. I slowed as much as I could but was still gaining on him. I had no choice but to widen my circuit by a considerable amount so as not to cut in front. However this put me much further away from the runway that I felt comfortable with.
As for departing the circuit I would have done exactly as you did, if departing in a southerly direction with a northerly track.
Surely what you did is no different than if you wanted to climb into the overhead, to set course. Would the other pilot have not factored this in?
Another thing I have gained from this debrief, is visually seeing the difference in take off performance of a microlight. The trusty old cessna 152 would have still been climbing to 500ft on the upwind leg by the time you managed to turn downwind.
Thanks Chris, I'm delighted you found some useful things in this video. That was one of my motivations for sharing it really!
Ha! If I’d know my comment was going to make the next video I’d have waffled less :)
Love it, great debrief and a good explanation of the human factors involved. I’d have 100% also flown to departure from the end of the downwind leg too (and in fact I did just that last time I flew from Sleap off the same runway!).
Lots of good learning points in this that will actually change how I fly departures/OHJs from now on. Tea owed!
Looking forward to the Shobdon video (one of my favorite airfields).
Mark Sumner ha ha - I remember the rocker Joe Walsh who famously sang the classic rock hit ‘Rocky Mountain Way’ saying, “if I knew I was was going to have to sing this for the rest of my life I probably would have written something else.”
I’m delighted you have got something useful from and thanks for your comment. I never refuse a tea and the Shobdon edit is coming together nicely.
Fantastic debrief Rory - what a great learning opportunity for us all. Keep up the good work!
Joe Richardson thanks very much Joe, I’m delighted you enjoyed it. 👍
Great video you did actually see the shadow so you were looking
Sunshine Catcher yeah, I was looking but it took me longer than it should have to work out where the plane was. Thanks for watching.
Great video. Loved the plug at the end and reference to dead air. No fun when you watch these videos and there is no talking
Excellent debrief, mate! You were really honest and allowed so many to learn from it.
Ben Atkinson thanks very much mate. I did my best to keep it honest and interesting. 👍
Great video. It’s very clear to me that although your intention was to depart the circuit you had not done that yet and nothing wrong with departing downwind. It’s the responsibility of the joining aircraft to give way to those already in the circuit. If DX did not have you visual he should have climbed back into the overhead. No doubt in my mind.
Excellent debrief and very honest. I am curious about the Join procedure being across the end of a Runway, rather than overhead and then on the downwind side of the circuit as I was taught (many moons ago) here in Australia. Maybe I have missed something here. I also think you nailed it 07:00 re your comment about gliding from any point. My instructor hammered me about flying wide circuits (in a warrior) at any time and also chastising others that did. If you get an engine quit in the circuit at least you have a chance. All in all an excellent and informative video. keep it up
Paul Radford cheers Paul, thanks for watching. The overhead join procedure here is a bit different by the sounds of it and does involve crossing the upwind numbers at 1000 QFE usually so I would say correctly in the case of the other aircraft. I’m glad you agree about the tight circuit though. Cheers, Rory
Hiya, really interesting to watch, and then went back and watched more of your videos... Can't believe you've been doing it 2 years.
Martin Steers thanks Martin, nice to hear from you. I’ve been doing this since around the time I stopped doing the radio show. I couldn’t handle doing both because they both take a lot of time and I wanted a new challenge. People still ask me ‘how is the show going?’ I hope you’re well.
@@RoryOnAir your radio presenting experience really does shine through..
I'm not bad.. in the middle of this years judging.. but getting there.
Martin Steers thank you. It’s nice to do some kind of broadcasting, even if it’s a very different kind of studio! Good luck with the awards. I’m sure they will keep going from strength to strength under your stewardship.
Another very informative video Rory, an open and honest debrief of what you possibly can do better and have learned from this experience.
We are always learning especially in Aviation , situation can change in split second.
Well done 👍.
Also a mention how it can all change in blink of eye,
A fatal air crash in Oxford . Prayers for the families of the pilot and passenger 🙏🏽.
God bless and safe flying to all
Flew it perfectly for a CPL (H) PPL (H)
Thank you very much! Really interesting to hear a debrief and good to hear different opinions and ideas! Great video:)
Thomas Gillis thanks Thomas, glad you enjoyed it.
Great and very helpful debrief - good work, Rory
James Woodrow thanks James. 👍
Well done Rory! A well presented and non emotional review of what could have been a very close shave.
Having recently had an even closer encounter with a glider, I too have invested in an electronic conspicuity unit here in the UK.
I look forward to seeing & hearing about your experiences with your system. Let’s hope these affordable and potentially life saving gadgets keep us all safer in the future. ✈️
hello Rory good video
joining the circuit is always intresting
and as many opinions as there are pilots.
but just a point as regards leaving
sleap sits in a matz and has a standard departure
which is to take of fly a standard circuit and climb in the downwind leg.
change frequency to shawbury. to obtain service, squark code, and a matz penatration clearance.
shawbury is usualy very busy and you cant always get a word in so to speak (pun not intended)
you need to allow yourself time
and of you go.
keep vids coming we all learn from them
tony saunders hi Tony, thanks for the comment. I’m glad you enjoy the videos. Cheers, Rory
Hi Rory, first time watcher of your channel. I have around 300 hours mostly in sep. It seems pretty clear that your choice of effective "cutting" into the circuit was the primary cause of this. Knowing there was another aircraft it would be good airmanship to follow the circuit as strictly and as closely as possible so that all other aircraft should expect you to be. As to filing an airprox, I would say definitely file one! I filed an airprox with a 737 in class D airspace once - it's a useful process to go through and an independent summary of events.
Ian Taylor Hi Ian, welcome to the channel and thanks for your comment. I’m interested that you’ve come to this conclusion as it’s not really in line with the majority of others options. That doesn’t make it any less valid though! I do hope you’ll subscribe and check put some of my other videos. Rory
Bit late to the party, the way you fly your circuit departures is the same we are taught in Australia. Eg leave on the circuit on the leg that is closest to the direction of travel. I tend to make additional calls if I hear someone joining near me so agree with your debrief item there. Interesting seeing your future in that video with Helicentre so in the lime light.
Thanks Glenn, and yes - it’s funny how things pan out isn’t it!
A very interesting video, it’s good to watch something different and especially about a previous video! At 1100 I’ll have a lesson in the ikarus - doing climbing and descending turns in the circuit! Let’s hope we don’t come across anything like this today. Great video though!
Flying with Dan thanks Dan, good luck with your flying. 👍
Rory On Air turns out I’m not going flying anymore! Low level cloud and fog... ughhh!!!🤣
Flying with Dan what a bummer. That gets a thumbs 👎.
Nice one Rory, good video as I’m sure we can all learn something from it.
Craig7 L I have certainly learned a lot from the experience so if it’s useful to others too that’s great. Thank you for your comment Craig.
I was taught (here in Switzerland) to announce - or request, if ATC available - a "climb on downwind" if I choose to do so I haven't seen or heard anybody here on YT using this phraseology though. Could this have a deconflicting potential in the scenario you outlined? BTW I would've exited the ATZ in the same way as you did. Getting out and then around exposes you to more trouble (e.g. flying in the vicinity of an airport but not in RT contact) than it's worth it IMHO. Great video and great reaction - thanks for sharing!
Fabrizio Albonico thanks for the comment Fabrizio and I’m glad you enjoyed the video. I think that would be normal with a controlled airport as ATC would give you instructions after departure. At uncontrolled fields like Sleap it’s down to pilot discretion.
A great educational video, however one you didn't have to make. There was a problem and you both dealt with it. Keep up the good work and I look forward to watching another epic Rory On AIr video.
Kristian Davies thanks very much Kristian - I appreciate you watching.
Hi Rory, as David mentions below we all really appreciate you sharing this. As I think you know I also flew from Barton with Mainair for a number of years and was also taught to keep within gliding distance as much as poss on climbout in case of EFATO, and with my Gyro we also tend to do the he same as we have a lower glide ration so typically do tighter circuits and steeper final approaches. I don't think GA traffic or those used to flying GA appreciate the performance characteristics and defensive flying which we're taught when flying Microlights or Gyros.
Looking again at the footage and the GPS trace I can't help but think the other aircraft was still not conforming to circuit pattern i.e. left hand for 18 as they appear to be flying in the opposite direction, not normal on a join across the downwind numbers which would have inevitably positioned them ahead of you. We don't want incessant RT with calls all over the place (my pet hate "just turning what does that mean?) in a controlled field (even with just Ground Service) because this clogs up RT for everyone else so agree that you didn't need to call crosswind or 'early' downwind - especially as you were climbing to depart the ATZ above circuit height. Turning to the right and descending was totally the correct manoeuvre. in this case.
Just a bit about human factors, if you were that concerned about your Pax maybe it would have been a good call to not try to fly him back to Barton or indeed to have returned to Barton when he was queasy flying down to Sleap. Human Factors have been shown to be a major cause of incidents and to cloud the judgement of the most experience pilot. I've returned just after departure a number of times with my other half after she got anxious about turbulence - this action meant she continued to fly with me in the future and we carefully planned departures and arrivals to avoid the worst of either thermal activity or WX.
Hope to catch-up with you at some point soon! Thanks again, Jason.
Hi Jason, thanks for your considered comment here. I tend to agree with you about not over doing it on the RT and clogging things up, but perhaps as it was relatively quiet and I couldn't see him, this might have been a good time to make a call.
As for the human factors, I am well aware of the dangers of 'get there itis' and I wouldn't have continued to Sleap had myself and Jolon not been happy to continue. I have cut other flights short when the passenger was displaying worse symptoms. (One of those flights is on here).
Anyway, Jolon said he enjoyed it and would fly again happily (having taken some travel sickness pills first) so that's a win. Cheers, Rory
Nice work mate, v insightful. Think I'd err on the side of your thinking if where you want to go is behind you, and whack it down the downwind. Otherwise you'd end up doing Sleap to Barton via Heathrow.
Nice tan btw 😎😎
markfmanchester Thanks mate. Yeah, the tan came from working outside in Orkney for weeks - it’s almost gone now lol.
Hi Rory, thanks for the debrief video and interesting seeing yours and the conflicting pilots viewpoints.
As I said in my original comment, as a Microlight pilot we have to be careful about our rate of climb as we can easily achieve circuit height even before the end of the runway and this can disrupt others in the circuit.
The circuit is the most congested part of the ATZ so I’d personally not fly back through it without making my intentions clear on the radio. Could have called ‘taking off and climbing into downwind’ as you left to improve situational awareness, or on takeoff turned right through the deadside where no one else should have been, or take a wider circuit to avoid anyone in the defined circuit pattern. I think I’d probably take the latter option in most cases (noise abatement permitting); fly the normal circuit direction but take it wider to avoid anyone else.
Anyway, a good video, you made a good call to turn away from the conflict, and I personally recommend investing in pilot aware or similar to improve S.A., but as ever no replacement for the mk1 eyeball.
Happy flying
Geoffrey Coan thanks Geoffrey, all good points and suggestions. Thanks for watching. 👍
Hi Rory, I've come across your channel a few times and have been enjoying your recent videos while you work on your Heli license.
Out of curiosity was an Airprox filed for this incident?
AeroMad91 hi, welcome! I’m glad you’ve been enjoying the videos. I thought I mentioned in the airprox decision in this video actually, maybe I didn’t in the end. No, I didn’t file one as I was advised by my instructor that is wasn’t close enough to warrant it.
@@RoryOnAir Apologies, you're absolutely right. You did mention it and I completely missed it *smacks head on desk*.
Completely understand the reasoning.
Thanks for responding, hope you are keeping safe and well!
@@AeroMad91 I'm glad that wasn't my memory playing tricks! All the best and thanks for watching. Cheers
Thanks for the clear assessment. The requirement to depart in circuit was a big factor here. I’m not a fan of doubling up circuit traffic (who would be!). At Clench (which is not a busy strip) departures are straight out, or if not going in that direction, overhead.
Arrival is overhead at 1500 ft QFE (500 ft circuit) and departure at 1000 ft QFE. In busy moments the aircraft would then be stacked at 500/1000/1500 in circuit/departures/arrival thereby reducing approx risk. A tight climb to the overhead also gives the benefit of gliding back in case of engine failure.
MrAlwaysBlue that’s really interesting and a new way of doing things to me. It goes to show that there are multiple options and ways people have been taught which was highlighted by the other pilot. Barton can be very busy but departing from the circuit works fine usually, we are limited in the overhead by Manchester CAS at 2000. Inbound aircraft tend to arrive at 1800 QFE and outbound depart about 1500 QNH. Thanks for the comment.
Thanks for posting Rory and the other pilot too, all helpful stuff, I applaud you both.
When with other pilots I have had several close calls, through, I hasten to add, no fault of our own, but blame isn't the issue, learning is key.
Your circuit may have been a bit tight - but microlight, glider and helicopter circuits tend to be don't they (not sure of the airfield in question's exact requirements)? Your exit of the circuit, notwithstanding? Was, literally textbook (as you pointed out and as I've been shown, when with other microlight pilots - I'm pondering if NPPL & PPL have a disconnect in that regard?).
Can I summarise, what we've gleaned from this near miss (which wasn't closer than 500' so thus didn't require reporting to CAA as a NM) is that, a couple more radio calls from you would have helped? And the other pilot being more familiar with the airfield and microlight/tighter circuit and circuit exit procedures would have helped too? Im assuming your position was that of the lower aircraft too?
In closing, is it me, or are these incidents happening more often that they did 20-30yrs ago?
I think that aircraft ident software/hardware sounds great and 'moving maps' are also helpful...but.......
.....When my dad first flew with someone with early GPS, a younger, newly qualified pilot, circa late 1990s, the young guy asked dad what he thought of the, then crude GPS. To which my father replied that he thought that it was clever, but that the young pilot fixated on it too much instead of looking out of the window and listening out, plus signalling his intentions.
Prophetic? I think that the new tech can be a blessing and/or a curse? Although it may not have been an issue in this case.
Muso Seven really interesting points and yes, I think you’re spot on in your analysis of the things both pilots could have done differently. I will talk More and fly slightly wider circuits in future. I’m a fan of Tech, but I agree there is a risk it takes out into the cockpit. I actually think pilotaware or similar would have helped me see DX sooner in this case though. Thanks for your considered comment Muso.
Rory On Air you're welcome Rory, I'm no expert, and it's easier to comment when not in the heat of battle, so to speak. We've all learned from your analysis. And we all make mistakes - I know that I do - it's the human condition.
I can see a time when aircraft ident equipment could become mandatory and if done correctly, then hopefully it will be a good aid to safety.
When my dad started flying, radio was optional, hand held Mics and no headset facility. Thank goodness things do move on/improve. Hopefully folk will be able to cope with the extra workload?
Muso Seven I think they will, we’ve all learned to use phones and computers all the time. Many thanks again.
Rory On Air LOL! Not some of the drivers I see using mobiles, perhaps there should be an RT exam for car drivers? LMAO!
Muso Seven ha ha ha - good point!
Great and honest video, Rory! Well done!
My opinion, you did everything right. You instantly applied corrective actions in the most sensible manner, and I would never criticise someone for flying a tight circuit. Personally whenever I hear someone on the radio in a similar position (similar enough that I'm worried) I'll always give an immediate position report, but its understandable that you didn't.
On the other hand, I think it's absolute bullshit that the Pilot didn't expect you to turn downwind. What kind of pilot wouldn't depart on the appropriate circuit leg? I say this as someone who typically tries to get the hell away from the circuit ASAP (i.e. won't set course in the overhead) , but what's the alternative? Fly a loop around the ATZ, who would expect that? Not sure if just them covering their arse, but it's ridiculous.
It's 100% on the joining pilot to be sure they are not conflicting with an aircraft in the circuit, although as always better to be alive than correct.
In any case, good work and love the vids
Learning 'no blame culture' makes us be better humans. Thanks for this.
your videos makes me want to renew my ppl-h.
Good! Well I say go for it, but I am bias.
Hi Rory, great video as ever and thanks for your comprehensive debrief on your near miss. One humble, well meaning comment I would like to make with regard to your excellent videos is that because you are busy flying the A/C and doing your commentary, you do seem a bit too distracted and perhaps not looking out as often as perhaps you should. Of course you have to check your panel and change frequencies and Squawks etc and it's difficult to do all that and look out too. This is an observation and not a criticism. Your videos have inspired me to go for the NPPL after a break of forty odd years and I llove the look of the EV97 with it's splendid views. Fly safe guys and keep them highly entertaining videos coming.
Oooooh... Nearly didn't recognise you without your hat...! ;)
RoadRunnerLaser ha ha - I thought it looked a bit daft indoors after the last time so went for the hoodie instead!
Rory On Air - I actually wrote that comment whilst you were doing the intro from Barton at the Heli event... :D :D
I'm irrationally triggered that my comment wasn't mentioned. To be fair I was just asking what the hell happened.
I'm glad you made this video. If I ever get to actually flying this kind of thing is useful.
Richard Brooklyn sorry Richard - nothing personal - just too many to mention them all! I’m sure you will if you keep plugging away. 👍
@@RoryOnAir of course. I wasn't expecting my "so what the hell happened here?" comment to be at all useful here.
I can’t see any error with your intended departure, or actions Rory. You took off and entered downwind for a departure in the opposite direction. I’d have (and have done, on many occasions) made the same manoeuvre. Surely someone joining overhead, descending dead side and entering crosswind at circuit height has to be aware of, 1/ traffic taking off below him, and 2/ traffic already established in the circuit. Unless I’m missing something with your positioning, whilst taking off you would have been looking for traffic entering crosswind, (above you) and a pilot positioned in crosswind would (should) be looking for traffic taking off. It is the pilot positioned in the crosswind that should have had a better view and capability of avoiding confrontation as he should have better knowledge of what’s currently going on in the circuit, (because of his much better view and traffic awareness from his overhead join). I prefer overhead joins for this very reason, to enable me to see what’s going on below me as I enter (and fit in to) traffic already established in the circuit.
Kevin Chilton I think you’re spot on here Kevin. It’s easier to see aircraft from above I find and aircraft joining the circuit have to conform with the circuit and give way to others already in it. Thanks for watching as always.
You didn’t spill your coffee when he buzzed you so he wasn’t that close 😀.
great video but don't say 'hoping to bump in to you'!
Ha ha - yes, poor use of language!
@@RoryOnAir We've probably flown past each other a few times - thats just how it is. What sometimes plays on my mind is when I do see something on pilotaware or the old xaon that says something like 1.1 miles 0.9 miles 0.6 miles 0.5 miles, 0.4, 0.4, 0.5, 0.6 and I don't get them in sight. It scares the living daylights and without the device I probably wouldn't ever have known about it. I suggest you do get the skyecho hooked up but it can scare the crap out of you sometimes.
@@dr_jaymz yes, I’d prefer to have it but when you’re hiring other aircraft it’s a bit trickier sometimes. Spotting traffic is a challenge at times but you just have to do what you can.
Didn't look that close, one or two comments made by armchair pilots are cringe worthy.