I disagree partially. I’ve had back pain for years and the back extension machine helped me so much. That and laying leg raises strengthened my back so much that I feel 10 years younger. I can see how it could cause issues for some if not done properly but it’s definitely helped me and there’s not a lot of ways of working those muscles. I did similar motion exercises with barbells for years and it only caused pain because it’s too easy to do them wrong but machines stabilize you more and prevent injury
I understand they may have worked for you but I’m coming from a broader perspective. I’ve worked in many gyms, with many trainers and with many patients and clients and on too many occasions back extensions have had a detrimental effect. From the experiences I’ve had and reading I’ve done since 2008, I haven’t found a use for back extensions that can’t fulfilled by other exercises. This isn’t a slight on your progress.
@@ChristopherHoleTrainingthe same gyms and trainers who prescribe avoiding low backs, doing half-squats, laughing at tibialis strengthening, etc. Just terrible advice, this video. Get with the times. Isolating the low back here, gradually and measurably, is one of the best things you can do. Source: rebuilt athletes who have done far superior work to you.
I find a lot of the critics of the back extensions tend not to have these in their gym sets. Agree they can cause pain on a painful back, however once the glutes and hamstrings are strengthened, as well as the trunk flexors, it becomes a fantastic exercise! Many many people do these and get great results from them. Doing an isometric hold with a trap 3 exercise is an amazing way to hit all your spinal erectors plus other posterior chain muscles. My advice to everyone is, don’t dismiss something without giving it a good try first!
Being a critic and not having it there gym sets could be true for some. From my experience it's an unnecessary exercise because there are many other ways to activation and build capacity through the posterior without the risks of low back extension.
This guy is clueless; he definitely has no idea what you mean by “trap 3 exercise”. Back extension is absolutely one of the key pieces of equipment in any gym.
@@ericmalitz Please explain why back extension machines are one of the key pieces of equipment and can you explain how the flexion/extension cycles affect the discs, vertebrae and facet joints? If you like you can add in shear forces and stress trajectories.
I don't even have major back issues but this is a very difficult exercises for people like me (hypermobile and low muscle mass) I think only previously conditioned people should do this or with the help of a trainer. My back is pretty sore today from trying this yesterday. When I am stronger I'll maybe try it as a glute exercise but there are prob safer methods.
Back extension for developing the muscular endurance of the lumbar muscles? Understood that the spine when its walking works on a switch on switch off mechanisms from right to left visa versa but I do find it odd to suggest this is the only function of the back muscles and therefore they need to be trained in such a way. After all back muscle are to resist forces and back extension provides a force for which they can resist (thereby getting stronger). I do agree however that greater strength and endurance doesn't mitigate pain in and off itself so perhaps and RDL is just safer due to the strength curve allowing for respite. I do think theres a place for back extensions however as they fire up the glutes, hamstrings and lower back. I do feel this is a bit movement fearing but also appreciate the different perspective.
In a healthy pain-free low back that remains in neutral throughout a motion like this would be more applicable but still unnecessary. In a painful low back, back extension are ineffective because they pose more risk than reward. This isn't movement fearing, this is movement understand. The goal is to open people eyes to the risk of movements like this and allow them to choose whether they do it or not. There are many other exercise do the same job with less of the risk.
I haven't seen any studies to suggest the roman chair is itself dangerous. I do agree that when people flex in the roman chair it has greater risk for injury but that's as much a technique issue as someone flexing the lower or mid back during an RDL which can be addressed with correct cues. If there is studies suggesting the roman chair itself is problematic I would like to read them tho! I do appreciate you can't address the fact that the muscles don't switch off in the roman chair position through technique, but I also don't see why this is itself a mechanism for injury. Wouldn't it just build endurance in the lumbar spine so long as its progressively overloaded (moving from an isometric hold with hands, to isometric with no hands, and finally to hinging at the hip)? I would say one of the advantages of the roman chair is the technique of the isometric is much easier to implement then an RDL, where sometimes peoples immobility and lack of co-ordination is a limiting factor @@ChristopherHoleTraining
The equipment isn’t the problem, it’s peoples technique using it and lack of understanding of their low back pain triggers. With that said there are 2 potential back pain mechanism using it. Lumbar Flexion and Lumbar Compression. Lumbar flexion comes from the repeated flexion extension of the spine, there are plenty of studies showing this. Lumbar Compression is activation of the muscles around the spine and this is something that can put unnecessary compression around the spine, which eventually destabilises the lumbar spine. What exercises you start with to help someone with low back is specific to the individuals pain trigger but there are plenty of better alternatives to build endurance than using this equipment. I would also add an RDL is more effective because of functional aspects that can be transferred to everyday life. People are lifting things most if not everyday and building this pattern will be more advantageous.
Understood, I see where you are coming from. RDL or seated good morning do seem safer options if you are to go with the idea that the lower back needs to switch on/off. Flexion and compression aren't inherently bad however, but of course it's about the pain triggers of the individual. The flexion can be avoided fairly easily with the hinge at the hip cue - as for the compression, do you believe this can be progressively overloaded or do you believe there are portions of the population that simply will never be able to tolerate the compression required to perform back extensions safely? I have found that the RDL is a great option for some, but for people who really for the life of them can't RDL with appropriate form (at least not initally), or perform a seated good morning, the isometric back extension (and then allowing for flexion down the road) works as a decent stop gap. Also, its a really good post exhaust for muscle growth of the glutes, but thats a separate thing. I'm still slightly hesitant to throw it out the window for all clients, but do think you have to move tentatively with it, especially after watching your videos. One final thing - this idea that the back needs this switch on/off mechanism whilst training it for the movement to be safe, i'm still not 100% sold on. I do get this is the backs mechanism for walking, but the muscle and vertebrae of the lower back also have to resist forces and sometimes for a decent period of time - why not build up this endurance with some isolation work? Is there evidence that without this mechanism of on/off the lower back is more likely to be injured, or is it just a working theory? I still think you could use something like the back extension but apply progressive overload, starting at a point of almost no hinging and building the endurance. Point taken about the RDL being more functional as it incorporates the upper back muscles as well, but the back should in my opinion be able to tolerate some compression even without the use of upper back muscles - whether someone with a prior injured back can reach that point is another thing but would be good to get them as close to that as possible I would have thought. @@ChristopherHoleTraining
“Flexion and compression aren't inherently bad however” They are, “Flexion and Lateral bending cause annulus fibrosus bulging and promote osteophyte formation” Benzel, E.C, 2001. Biomechanics of Spine Stabilization. 1st ed. American Association of Neurological Surgeons. Lumbar Compression depends on a few things, disc shape being one. “Other features of the disc influence load-bearing ability. First, larger discs develop more stress when bending and herniate more easily” (Adam’s and Dolan 2005) Limacon shaped discs are better at rotating and flexing. Oval shaped discs are more likely to herniate from flexion. The only way to know these shapes for sure is with imaging and if can’t get that, I wouldn’t take the chance. Whether people can perform the RDL for weight training or not is irrelevant, they are bending and lifting things all day. Getting people to bend and lift as best as they can should be the primary use or the RDL or Deadlift because they’re doing everyday whether they can or not. Low Back Isotation: “Rehabilitation devices such as this attempt to isolate lumber motion by extending against a resistance pad, but create simultaneous lumber compression. We found that replicating the full range of motion from full flexion to neutral and using the compressive loads of this device was a powerful combination that produced disc herniation.” Low Back Disorder page 65 Back Extension/Superman Exercise “A commonly prescribed spine extension, muscle challenge, the superman, involves lying prone, while extending the arms and legs. This results in over 6000 N of compression to hyper extended spine, transfers load to the facets, and crushes the interspinous ligament. Needless to say, this exercise is contraindicated for anyone at risk of low back injury or re-injury. This exercise should not be done in any form.” Low Back Disorder page 297 Upper and Mid-back muscles Back muscles work best together, isolating them is not effective. “The latissimus Dorsey is involved in lumber extension moment generation and often acts as a major stabiliser. Its origin at each lumber spinous process via the Lumbo, dorsal fascia and insertion on the humorous gives a very large extensor moment arm.” Muscles on/off Do Muscles don’t switch on and off during walking they dampen and heighten their activity depending which foot is off the ground. This is how the spine stabilises itself. The spine does need to be able to cope with compression but most people and trainers don’t know where to start and how to progress. However they do it anyway with poor choices of exercise progressions.
*avoidance* That’s this guy’s education. Terrible advice. The 45 degree BE is one of the essential pieces of equipment you could possibly use. Stop avoiding your low back and strengthen it, gradually and measurably. In fact, every household should replace their couches with one.
I disagree partially. I’ve had back pain for years and the back extension machine helped me so much. That and laying leg raises strengthened my back so much that I feel 10 years younger. I can see how it could cause issues for some if not done properly but it’s definitely helped me and there’s not a lot of ways of working those muscles. I did similar motion exercises with barbells for years and it only caused pain because it’s too easy to do them wrong but machines stabilize you more and prevent injury
I understand they may have worked for you but I’m coming from a broader perspective. I’ve worked in many gyms, with many trainers and with many patients and clients and on too many occasions back extensions have had a detrimental effect. From the experiences I’ve had and reading I’ve done since 2008, I haven’t found a use for back extensions that can’t fulfilled by other exercises. This isn’t a slight on your progress.
@@ChristopherHoleTrainingthe same gyms and trainers who prescribe avoiding low backs, doing half-squats, laughing at tibialis strengthening, etc.
Just terrible advice, this video.
Get with the times. Isolating the low back here, gradually and measurably, is one of the best things you can do. Source: rebuilt athletes who have done far superior work to you.
@@ericmalitz Why is it one of the best things you can do?
I find a lot of the critics of the back extensions tend not to have these in their gym sets. Agree they can cause pain on a painful back, however once the glutes and hamstrings are strengthened, as well as the trunk flexors, it becomes a fantastic exercise! Many many people do these and get great results from them. Doing an isometric hold with a trap 3 exercise is an amazing way to hit all your spinal erectors plus other posterior chain muscles. My advice to everyone is, don’t dismiss something without giving it a good try first!
Being a critic and not having it there gym sets could be true for some. From my experience it's an unnecessary exercise because there are many other ways to activation and build capacity through the posterior without the risks of low back extension.
This guy is clueless; he definitely has no idea what you mean by “trap 3 exercise”. Back extension is absolutely one of the key pieces of equipment in any gym.
@@ericmalitz Please explain why back extension machines are one of the key pieces of equipment and can you explain how the flexion/extension cycles affect the discs, vertebrae and facet joints? If you like you can add in shear forces and stress trajectories.
I don't even have major back issues but this is a very difficult exercises for people like me (hypermobile and low muscle mass) I think only previously conditioned people should do this or with the help of a trainer. My back is pretty sore today from trying this yesterday. When I am stronger I'll maybe try it as a glute exercise but there are prob safer methods.
I use it for hamstring and glute development. One of the most intense activating exercises I have ever used for posterior chain work.
Agreed, it's much better as a Glute activation movement
@@ChristopherHoleTraining…and in turn also for low back strengthening.
@@ericmalitz Does it depend if the person triggers low back pain in flexion and/or under compression?
Thanks for this. Thoughts on RDLs to work the lower back/erector spinae? The movement pattern is similar to the kettlebell good morning.
RDL's are a great way to activate the posterior chain of muscles
Back extension for developing the muscular endurance of the lumbar muscles? Understood that the spine when its walking works on a switch on switch off mechanisms from right to left visa versa but I do find it odd to suggest this is the only function of the back muscles and therefore they need to be trained in such a way. After all back muscle are to resist forces and back extension provides a force for which they can resist (thereby getting stronger). I do agree however that greater strength and endurance doesn't mitigate pain in and off itself so perhaps and RDL is just safer due to the strength curve allowing for respite. I do think theres a place for back extensions however as they fire up the glutes, hamstrings and lower back. I do feel this is a bit movement fearing but also appreciate the different perspective.
In a healthy pain-free low back that remains in neutral throughout a motion like this would be more applicable but still unnecessary. In a painful low back, back extension are ineffective because they pose more risk than reward.
This isn't movement fearing, this is movement understand. The goal is to open people eyes to the risk of movements like this and allow them to choose whether they do it or not. There are many other exercise do the same job with less of the risk.
I haven't seen any studies to suggest the roman chair is itself dangerous. I do agree that when people flex in the roman chair it has greater risk for injury but that's as much a technique issue as someone flexing the lower or mid back during an RDL which can be addressed with correct cues. If there is studies suggesting the roman chair itself is problematic I would like to read them tho! I do appreciate you can't address the fact that the muscles don't switch off in the roman chair position through technique, but I also don't see why this is itself a mechanism for injury. Wouldn't it just build endurance in the lumbar spine so long as its progressively overloaded (moving from an isometric hold with hands, to isometric with no hands, and finally to hinging at the hip)? I would say one of the advantages of the roman chair is the technique of the isometric is much easier to implement then an RDL, where sometimes peoples immobility and lack of co-ordination is a limiting factor @@ChristopherHoleTraining
The equipment isn’t the problem, it’s peoples technique using it and lack of understanding of their low back pain triggers.
With that said there are 2 potential back pain mechanism using it. Lumbar Flexion and Lumbar Compression.
Lumbar flexion comes from the repeated flexion extension of the spine, there are plenty of studies showing this. Lumbar Compression is activation of the muscles around the spine and this is something that can put unnecessary compression around the spine, which eventually destabilises the lumbar spine.
What exercises you start with to help someone with low back is specific to the individuals pain trigger but there are plenty of better alternatives to build endurance than using this equipment.
I would also add an RDL is more effective because of functional aspects that can be transferred to everyday life. People are lifting things most if not everyday and building this pattern will be more advantageous.
Understood, I see where you are coming from. RDL or seated good morning do seem safer options if you are to go with the idea that the lower back needs to switch on/off. Flexion and compression aren't inherently bad however, but of course it's about the pain triggers of the individual. The flexion can be avoided fairly easily with the hinge at the hip cue - as for the compression, do you believe this can be progressively overloaded or do you believe there are portions of the population that simply will never be able to tolerate the compression required to perform back extensions safely? I have found that the RDL is a great option for some, but for people who really for the life of them can't RDL with appropriate form (at least not initally), or perform a seated good morning, the isometric back extension (and then allowing for flexion down the road) works as a decent stop gap. Also, its a really good post exhaust for muscle growth of the glutes, but thats a separate thing. I'm still slightly hesitant to throw it out the window for all clients, but do think you have to move tentatively with it, especially after watching your videos. One final thing - this idea that the back needs this switch on/off mechanism whilst training it for the movement to be safe, i'm still not 100% sold on. I do get this is the backs mechanism for walking, but the muscle and vertebrae of the lower back also have to resist forces and sometimes for a decent period of time - why not build up this endurance with some isolation work? Is there evidence that without this mechanism of on/off the lower back is more likely to be injured, or is it just a working theory? I still think you could use something like the back extension but apply progressive overload, starting at a point of almost no hinging and building the endurance. Point taken about the RDL being more functional as it incorporates the upper back muscles as well, but the back should in my opinion be able to tolerate some compression even without the use of upper back muscles - whether someone with a prior injured back can reach that point is another thing but would be good to get them as close to that as possible I would have thought. @@ChristopherHoleTraining
“Flexion and compression aren't inherently bad however”
They are,
“Flexion and Lateral bending cause annulus fibrosus bulging and promote osteophyte formation”
Benzel, E.C, 2001. Biomechanics of Spine Stabilization. 1st ed. American Association of Neurological Surgeons.
Lumbar Compression depends on a few things, disc shape being one.
“Other features of the disc influence load-bearing ability. First, larger discs develop more stress when bending and herniate more easily” (Adam’s and Dolan 2005)
Limacon shaped discs are better at rotating and flexing. Oval shaped discs are more likely to herniate from flexion. The only way to know these shapes for sure is with imaging and if can’t get that, I wouldn’t take the chance.
Whether people can perform the RDL for weight training or not is irrelevant, they are bending and lifting things all day. Getting people to bend and lift as best as they can should be the primary use or the RDL or Deadlift because they’re doing everyday whether they can or not.
Low Back Isotation:
“Rehabilitation devices such as this attempt to isolate lumber motion by extending against a resistance pad, but create simultaneous lumber compression. We found that replicating the full range of motion from full flexion to neutral and using the compressive loads of this device was a powerful combination that produced disc herniation.”
Low Back Disorder page 65
Back Extension/Superman Exercise
“A commonly prescribed spine extension, muscle challenge, the superman, involves lying prone, while extending the arms and legs. This results in over 6000 N of compression to hyper extended spine, transfers load to the facets, and crushes the interspinous ligament. Needless to say, this exercise is contraindicated for anyone at risk of low back injury or re-injury. This exercise should not be done in any form.”
Low Back Disorder page 297
Upper and Mid-back muscles
Back muscles work best together, isolating them is not effective.
“The latissimus Dorsey is involved in lumber extension moment generation and often acts as a major stabiliser. Its origin at each lumber spinous process via the Lumbo, dorsal fascia and insertion on the humorous gives a very large extensor moment arm.”
Muscles on/off Do
Muscles don’t switch on and off during walking they dampen and heighten their activity depending which foot is off the ground. This is how the spine stabilises itself.
The spine does need to be able to cope with compression but most people and trainers don’t know where to start and how to progress. However they do it anyway with poor choices of exercise progressions.
“The flexion extension cycle is a mechanism of injury.”
😂😂
@@ericmalitz yes look it up
*avoidance*
That’s this guy’s education.
Terrible advice. The 45 degree BE is one of the essential pieces of equipment you could possibly use.
Stop avoiding your low back and strengthen it, gradually and measurably.
In fact, every household should replace their couches with one.
@@ericmalitz Why do people need a strong low back? And what is your definition of strength?