Outstanding job Joe. Thanks for taking care of the details and making sure the quality of the bumpers are good. Not everyone would stop and take the time to make sure everything is right. Thanks so much my friend!
Last year I had to buy a new front bumper for my 01 Silverado. Someone backed into it. It's a nice clean streetable truck. More of a grocery getter. I got one of those cheap bumpers. And you're right they're a 10' bumper. After the NNN last fall. I went to OH to visit family. I stopped by Pauls Chrome over in PA. They looked at my original bumpers from my 72 Demon. They said about $1400. each. But that really is show quality. I left them with my nephew for him to take them to Pauls when I save up enough money. It's hard getting things online nowdays. You don't even get what you pay for. Good body work on the Cuda. 👍
My Chargers bumpers were rechromed about 26 years ago by the defunct "Toledo Auto Bumper co" and still look great. Cost around $200 each back then. Money well spent. Growing up you could see racks of chrome bumpers from I-75 as you drove past downtown.
Glad to hear AMD is correcting the issue for you. With out support from guys like you and QC they will not know there is a problem. My solution on all my Mopars. I always paint them black 😂
Joe, I was going to say "settle for a 20% + shipping discount". Hats off to AMD for doing the right thing. I think your media influence had something to do with it! Take care, Phil
Thank you for pointing out the quality issue from them...and glad to hear they are working with you on this matter..always looking forward to seeing more content and thanks...Joe...🔧🔧👍
They look like good cores for a professional rechroming.. Glad they are going to do something about them for you. The nice part about sending in originals to rechroming is that you can take some time and grind the old ones into better shape in the bends around fenders for a nicer fit and look. Sadly, most bumper peeps are gone and those who still do it are really expensive..
Totally unacceptable I’d have sent them back too. They look like old bumpers that someone cleaned up real nice, way too many little dents and waves in them. I’ve got a 72 Monte Carlo that I drug out of a barn a few months back, i did a half ass job of cleaning up the bumpers and they look like mirrors compared to those “new” ones. If we don’t point stuff like this out nothing will ever get fixed. I’ve had a hell of a time with mechanical fuel pumps lately, just junk right out of the box. Only got maybe 50 miles out of a brand new one.
Just did a bumper on a 68 RR from classic. Barely enough room on both quarter pockets and ended notching box for bumpers bolts. Awesome amd was helpful
I have 2 sets of originals stashed for my '69 340 project in good shape and you just reminded me of the value of the real parts compared to this repopped stuff. Those were pretty awful. Hope you get it sorted.
Thank goodness AMD makes so many parts some are outstanding . But I had the same experience with bumpers for my challenger however mine were acceptable for the price. Good chrome plating requires a lot of hand metal work prep before plating.
A friend of mine used the new AMD bumpers on his 70 challenger, they didn't hold up well, but they have standard and show, I would think the more expensive show bumpers would be closer to original and hold up better. I use Tri City Plating in Elizabethton Tennessee, their rechrome work is reasonably priced and excellent quality! And I can drive there from home!
Good on AMD!!..ur Challenger bumpers look pretty darn reasonable, especially after 4-5 years......those "new" cuda dudes, i wudnt even put on my old beater......NOT up to snuff!!.....kepp us informed, LOVE ur chanel brother!!
I do know that factory bumpers usually looked really good on the top surface but the lower surfaces were definitely not as polished. But they did not have sanding marks in them
My eyes are telling me that the chrome plating is too thin as I see what looks like grinder marks showing through and may also be the cause of the little dents, low spots that aren't covered by enough plating material.
The bumpers are great for the money, Bumpers are $1200 to get rechromed here and the first shmuck who runs into it won't have me mad as an easily affordable bumper is available.
I have heard more horror stories for replacement bumpers than any other part. From that trash finish to completely rusting through of the chrome layer in large patches. I heard there is a lack of QC during the strip and laminate process but take that wit ha grain of salt. Personally I'd rather bash out any dents or do w/e to straighten an original back out. I am not a guy who likes chrome on anything so 'patina' bumpers are my preference. Regardless, at least amd will warranty that! Its a good reminder to verify every part you get even if you don't need it for a long bit.
Im in Ontario, Canada . i have a 71 Duster 340 and i had original cores that i wanted to get rechromed . Got quoted over 2000 each with taxes so i ordered some AMD ones . They were on backorder for almost a year and they cost me close to 2500 for the pair with the taxes and shipping . I was lucky i guess because mine had no dents or rippling on the finish .
Sad that aftermarket quality control has gotten to this point. We want our cars to look good, even if they are "driver quality"! My car is nice but not a show car, so I probably would have kept them. Guess it would depend on the seller paying for return freight. Has been a hassle returning things in the past with some suppliers.
The ones you just received Look horrible. From a glance it does the trick but upon close inspection-it almost looks like one of those fiberglass bumpers with the plasti-chrome plating on it. Unfortunately the epa put so much pressure on chrome plating businesses over the years- very few are still in business. With the recent overturning of the Chevron deference-hopefully some of the over regulated industries will bounce back from the dead! 😂 Your challenger bumpers look really good to me by the way. Hopefully it’s just a bad set; I will say that everything from AMD I get is usually great quality
Thats horrible...Im glad the AMD guy agrees, these would be chinese for sure...minimum effort, minimum chrome...cant believe how rough they are...hope they go out of their way to provide decent bumpers second time around... Interesting to note someone said they do "show" bumpers...I wouldnt think too many people would accept this "quality" happily..why would you bother selling them....also the price of actual chrome plating HAS gone through the roof...bad in Australia too...we used to get a decent job for 500-600 and be happy...double that now and you have to check everything...a few shops are closing down...its crazy...I just want chrome that looks decent
@@JustMoparJoe I’d not be a happy man receiving these down here .. even more so after the freight bill ! I wonder why a company of that size and reputation think it’s ok to sell that crap
My Coronets new amd rear bumper is about the same. And the fitment was bad, bolt holes didn't line up on the bottom side. I guess that's why they are cheap to buy compared to rechroming.
Looks like the dies used for forming them are worn out or have dirt in them . I’ve worked around some sheet metal brake presses and it doesn’t take much sand or metal residue for it to show up on the product .
$1000 for a rechrome that may not be any better and may chip or flake with no recourse in most instances. AMD standing by it is worth the $350. The other question that comes to mind is just how good we're factory mopar bumpers? In my mind if it's a driver....its just a bumper. Barret Jackson action we'll that's a different story..imo
Understandable. Most factory bumpers I’ve seen were glassy smooth. At this age, I’ve only seen them with scuffs and rough spots, it the fine rust dots. (Sounds a little like Dr. Suess)
Wow, not good. I'm glad the rep. was cool about having you send them back....hopefully they are paying for shipping as well. Their quality control people need to be more on it. Its bad for business, especially when the poor quality get exposed to hundreds/thousands? On youtube.
Dam……. Isn’t there anything anymore you don’t have to worry about. Sorry Joe but from what I can tell I don’t know how that got to packaging department. Good luck!
Hi Joe, it sure looks like that the bumper is right out of the die. Back in the day the dies were finished better and the chrome plating was much better My buddy has AMD 69 Dart bumpers and they look better than your bumpers.
I don't think that Mopar had the best build quality from the factory. White paint hide lots of imperfections as other colors do. If they are using a lighter gage steel and the highdroughlic press is a little week you will get bad body parts.
Hello Joe, that's pretty shocking considering the price. I've found NOS chrome bumpers - here in the UK - for 60's/70's Vauxhalls and they are mostly perfect, also the quality then was massively better. I have some old bumpers that are still in excellent condition. I'll say on behalf of thousands of others....China.
I am telling you that the quality is gone down as the price has gone up. It would be nice to put Americans back to work building and assembling USA made products. But I am worried with the failure of companies like Boeing and Auto Manufacturers. That we would not fair much better. As peoples moral value has declined so went the will to put pride into what you do. The education and training is only as good as the person that is willing to put forth the effort. And it seems like so many Americans feel they are under paid. While agreeing to do the work and complaining about the pay. You agree on that up front. Then you do the best job that you can do and build it with the idea that your name means something. And you would put your name on that product. Thanks for the heads up Joe. Glad I bought my stuff 3 years ago for my GTX. And my Challenger 12 years ago. Boy I wish I knew how to weld. I would get further along on my GTX. But the Challenger is good enough to go to Cruise Ins😁
Chrome will show every defect in a bumper if the bare metal was not prepped properly. Bad finishing, you might as well re-chrome your bumpers and spend the extra cash. Who wants to look at that crap every day?
$350 should at least buy better than that hammered dog shit! Here's a cost saving tip for AMD, and thier customers.... Somebody at AMD (or even in China) opens the box, and looks at the product BEFORE they ship it!
That’s pretty ugly, the disappointing quality is why folks are paying $1000+ to rechrome their originals. And it’s not just repop Mopar stuff, Brand X guys have the same issues…
Hey Joe, Tim here, AWFUL QUALITY bumper.......i mean just take the old one, sand scratch the crap outa it, dip it, call it good, send it......AWFUL, and i aint even halfway thru ur vid......i saw all the dings/dents, but i also saw 80 grit sandind marks.....i mean wft??....ugh
@@JustMoparJoe well lets hope they spend 1 more prep hour, before the dip!!!.......at least, and then NOT make u spend ANY $!!!! product was awful!!!!......oh, my beater may make 600 hp, and its ugly, but for "new dudes" for it, NO, NO BEUNO!!....PEACE my brother!!
![[LIVE] MCHOICE & MINT AWARDS 2024 at TRUE ICON HALL, ICONSIAM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wMewUeT5nbY/mqdefault.jpg)
Good on AMD for making it right.
Indeed! I’ll use the best 2/4
Outstanding job Joe. Thanks for taking care of the details and making sure the quality of the bumpers are good. Not everyone would stop and take the time to make sure everything is right. Thanks so much my friend!
You got it buddy! If my paint job looked like these bumpers, I’d want you to bring it back too!
You could really jazz up the demolition derby with them bumpers😂😂
Well said Billiam!
I'm glad to hear AMD is making it right for you!
I hope so too!
Last year I had to buy a new front bumper for my 01 Silverado. Someone backed into it. It's a nice clean streetable truck. More of a grocery getter. I got one of those cheap bumpers. And you're right they're a 10' bumper. After the NNN last fall. I went to OH to visit family. I stopped by Pauls Chrome over in PA. They looked at my original bumpers from my 72 Demon. They said about $1400. each. But that really is show quality. I left them with my nephew for him to take them to Pauls when I save up enough money. It's hard getting things online nowdays. You don't even get what you pay for. Good body work on the Cuda. 👍
Thanks Tim! Good luck with your project
Definitely shiny, looks great, thanks for sharing, all the best to you and your loved ones
She’s a good 10’
My Chargers bumpers were rechromed about 26 years ago by the defunct "Toledo Auto Bumper co" and still look great. Cost around $200 each back then. Money well spent. Growing up you could see racks of chrome bumpers from I-75 as you drove past downtown.
Wow man!
$350 ain’t $1000, but it should still be much better than that for $350.
Yes sir 🫡
Glad to hear AMD is correcting the issue for you. With out support from guys like you and QC they will not know there is a problem. My solution on all my Mopars. I always paint them black 😂
Joe,
I was going to say "settle for a 20% + shipping discount".
Hats off to AMD for doing the right thing.
I think your media influence had something to do with it!
Take care,
Phil
Thanks Phil! I’ll pick the best 2/4
YIKES !! Good luck.
Definitely appreciated!
Classic Mopars are awesome.
Absolutely!
Tri City Crome bumper are very nice and warranty for life
That’s what I heard! Thanks for sharing!
When I got my bumpers for my 65 GTO, they came from a company called Golden Star They still look good 3 years later.
Thats awesome. They may not do Mopar market. I will check them out
Well, I guess it's up to your friend and what he is 😊willing to spend
Thank you for pointing out the quality issue from them...and glad to hear they are working with you on this matter..always looking forward to seeing more content and thanks...Joe...🔧🔧👍
Much appreciated!
They look like good cores for a professional rechroming.. Glad they are going to do something about them for you. The nice part about sending in originals to rechroming is that you can take some time and grind the old ones into better shape in the bends around fenders for a nicer fit and look. Sadly, most bumper peeps are gone and those who still do it are really expensive..
That is a great idea. Many of the old ways are going to the wayside.
Totally unacceptable I’d have sent them back too. They look like old bumpers that someone cleaned up real nice, way too many little dents and waves in them. I’ve got a 72 Monte Carlo that I drug out of a barn a few months back, i did a half ass job of cleaning up the bumpers and they look like mirrors compared to those “new” ones. If we don’t point stuff like this out nothing will ever get fixed. I’ve had a hell of a time with mechanical fuel pumps lately, just junk right out of the box. Only got maybe 50 miles out of a brand new one.
Wow man. I only try the Carter’s or aftermarket ones from summit or Jegs. Parts store ones don’t pump for a month anymore 🧐
@@JustMoparJoe yep I put a Carter on it now 👍
Just did a bumper on a 68 RR from classic. Barely enough room on both quarter pockets and ended notching box for bumpers bolts. Awesome amd was helpful
Definitely have to test fit it all nowadays.
I have 2 sets of originals stashed for my '69 340 project in good shape and you just reminded me of the value of the real parts compared to this repopped stuff. Those were pretty awful.
Hope you get it sorted.
Good video Joe.
Thanks for sharing the information.
You never know what you're getting these days.👍
Thanks Ed! Hopefully the next set will be better!
It’s a very friendly bumper. It just waives and waives!
🌊
Thank goodness AMD makes so many parts some are outstanding . But I had the same experience with bumpers for my challenger however mine were acceptable for the price. Good chrome plating requires a lot of hand metal work prep before plating.
Thanks for sharing. Both my challenger bumpers were great! I wonder if they put more effort in those since they sell more
A friend of mine used the new AMD bumpers on his 70 challenger, they didn't hold up well, but they have standard and show, I would think the more expensive show bumpers would be closer to original and hold up better. I use Tri City Plating in Elizabethton Tennessee, their rechrome work is reasonably priced and excellent quality! And I can drive there from home!
That’s the place I hear!
I’m so glad you addressed this, give us an idea if we purchase them. Appreciate it!
Glad it was helpful!
Good on AMD!!..ur Challenger bumpers look pretty darn reasonable, especially after 4-5 years......those "new" cuda dudes, i wudnt even put on my old beater......NOT up to snuff!!.....kepp us informed, LOVE ur chanel brother!!
Thanks brother 🫡
I do know that factory bumpers usually looked really good on the top surface but the lower surfaces were definitely not as polished. But they did not have sanding marks in them
These are better than nothing. I’m thinking I’ll keep the best 2 out of the 4.
My eyes are telling me that the chrome plating is too thin as I see what looks like grinder marks showing through and may also be the cause of the little dents, low spots that aren't covered by enough plating material.
Yes! I meant to show the grinder marks better. Lots of swirled scratches
Well at least there goin to send ya another set , hopefully they will be better ,👍 👍 👍 👍
I hope so too! I’ll pick the best 2/4
Really good quality for a Hoopty! 😂 Probably not so great for the average Joe!
I see what you did there :)
Haha! Thanks Big Mike
Those are $158.13 bumpers......that's about it.
Swap meet special!
The bumpers are great for the money, Bumpers are $1200 to get rechromed here and the first shmuck who runs into it won't have me mad as an easily affordable bumper is available.
Right on. If they send me 2 more, I’ll pick the 2 best of the 4
I have found if you close your eyes, it looks great.
That’ll work! 😂
It's up to us to not settle for junk we spend our hard earned money on this stuff. We should get what we pay for.
Yes sir
That's a drag man. The original bumpers were like glass.
Absolutely! I’m looking for 2 more
I have heard more horror stories for replacement bumpers than any other part. From that trash finish to completely rusting through of the chrome layer in large patches. I heard there is a lack of QC during the strip and laminate process but take that wit ha grain of salt. Personally I'd rather bash out any dents or do w/e to straighten an original back out. I am not a guy who likes chrome on anything so 'patina' bumpers are my preference. Regardless, at least amd will warranty that! Its a good reminder to verify every part you get even if you don't need it for a long bit.
Thanks brother
Im in Ontario, Canada . i have a 71 Duster 340 and i had original cores that i wanted to get rechromed . Got quoted over 2000 each with taxes so i ordered some AMD ones . They were on backorder for almost a year and they cost me close to 2500 for the pair with the taxes and shipping . I was lucky i guess because mine had no dents or rippling on the finish .
Thanks for sharing! Imagine guys in Australia paying shipping to get these in for a car and trying to send them back!
@@JustMoparJoe i think the shipping costs would be way more than the cost of the bumpers themselves .
Sad that aftermarket quality control has gotten to this point. We want our cars to look good, even if they are "driver quality"! My car is nice but not a show car, so I probably would have kept them. Guess it would depend on the seller paying for return freight. Has been a hassle returning things in the past with some suppliers.
I’ll update in a later video what they were able to do.
Bumper looks good to me. Just depends how perfect you want it. I'll pay the $350.00 ❤❤
Much better than no bumper for sure.
if you think those are bad you should see the ones for early mustangs ..twisted end for end and did not follow the contour of the wrap around at all
Wow man!
They shouldn't have any dings in them but outside of that for the price I think they are acceptable amd is making it right
Thanks Dave
I wouldn't mind replacing mine with fiberglass, but they are nearly $500 a piece
Wow man! Did you check VFN out of Illinois?
No doubt they will send them out to the next guy.
some times you need to point things out so they can do a better job thanks joe
Thanks Brother!
My God, it is bad!..... Good enough ain't Good anymore.
Amen 🙏🏼
Do they have the copper under all that shiny 🤔👍🏻🇦🇺.
Rather spend 1k for the better finish that might last. $350 makes me giggle ...
The ones you just received Look horrible. From a glance it does the trick but upon close inspection-it almost looks like one of those fiberglass bumpers with the plasti-chrome plating on it. Unfortunately the epa put so much pressure on chrome plating businesses over the years- very few are still in business. With the recent overturning of the Chevron deference-hopefully some of the over regulated industries will bounce back from the dead! 😂
Your challenger bumpers look really good to me by the way. Hopefully it’s just a bad set; I will say that everything from AMD I get is usually great quality
Same here buddy!
Thats horrible...Im glad the AMD guy agrees, these would be chinese for sure...minimum effort, minimum chrome...cant believe how rough they are...hope they go out of their way to provide decent bumpers second time around... Interesting to note someone said they do "show" bumpers...I wouldnt think too many people would accept this "quality" happily..why would you bother selling them....also the price of actual chrome plating HAS gone through the roof...bad in Australia too...we used to get a decent job for 500-600 and be happy...double that now and you have to check everything...a few shops are closing down...its crazy...I just want chrome that looks decent
That’s all we ask! Imagine shipping these babies back and forth from Australia!
@@JustMoparJoe I’d not be a happy man receiving these down here .. even more so after the freight bill ! I wonder why a company of that size and reputation think it’s ok to sell that crap
I guess the $ 350 bumper is better than no bumper, still quality really sucks nowadays.
Absolutely!
My Coronets new amd rear bumper is about the same. And the fitment was bad, bolt holes didn't line up on the bottom side. I guess that's why they are cheap to buy compared to rechroming.
Hopefully the next set is better. I’ll pick the best 2 out of the 4 😅
Looks like the dies used for forming them are worn out or have dirt in them . I’ve worked around some sheet metal brake presses and it doesn’t take much sand or metal residue for it to show up on the product .
That’s very true! Hopefully the next set will be slick
It looks like they pulled them from a JC Whitney catalog and reboxed them.
Haha! Jc would have been better in the 90’s
tri-city plating
Was under the assumption AMD was USA. Not.😢
No sir. They say Taiwan on most things
$1000 for a rechrome that may not be any better and may chip or flake with no recourse in most instances. AMD standing by it is worth the $350. The other question that comes to mind is just how good we're factory mopar bumpers? In my mind if it's a driver....its just a bumper. Barret Jackson action we'll that's a different story..imo
Understandable. Most factory bumpers I’ve seen were glassy smooth. At this age, I’ve only seen them with scuffs and rough spots, it the fine rust dots. (Sounds a little like Dr. Suess)
Wow, not good. I'm glad the rep. was cool about having you send them back....hopefully they are paying for shipping as well. Their quality control people need to be more on it. Its bad for business, especially when the poor quality get exposed to hundreds/thousands? On youtube.
Thanks brother. I will update on install day!
Dam……. Isn’t there anything anymore you don’t have to worry about. Sorry Joe but from what I can tell I don’t know how that got to packaging department. Good luck!
@@richardmoerke9329 thanks brother. I’m going to use the best 2 of the 4 and use them!
Enjoy your videos, do you have any idea who rebuilds RV2 ac compressors?
Thank you! I have no idea on that one.
Sent three back for my 69 Charger build.🤦🏼
Thanks for sharing! Hopefully you finally got a good one
Somebody sent that bumper back, and they repacked it and shipped it out again looks like
I’m going to pick the best 2 of the 4, if they ever send the other two new ones
Hiya Joe. Hows it going ?
Busy and hot!
I have some re-chrome bumpers for my 65 barracuda that don’t look that good.
Oh man!
Hi Joe, it sure looks like that the bumper is right out of the die. Back in the day the dies were finished better and the chrome plating was much better My buddy has AMD 69 Dart bumpers and they look better than your bumpers.
Thanks Pat!
Many restorers are taking their chrome work to the border. Tijuana or Juarez. Reasonable prices. Security?
That’s what I heard from Jeremy at Sorta Stock. He’s taking a car to Mexico now to be painted
👍😎100%
Thanks John
I don't think that Mopar had the best build quality from the factory. White paint hide lots of imperfections as other colors do. If they are using a lighter gage steel and the highdroughlic press is a little week you will get bad body parts.
Hello Joe, that's pretty shocking considering the price. I've found NOS chrome bumpers - here in the UK - for 60's/70's Vauxhalls and they are mostly perfect, also the quality then was massively better. I have some old bumpers that are still in excellent condition. I'll say on behalf of thousands of others....China.
Thanks Chris. You’re right on the money!
Ripples
@4:01 okay too bad. hope it is not a show car
We try to over deliver! I just want some bumpers in line with the paint and body work
I am telling you that the quality is gone down as the price has gone up. It would be nice to put Americans back to work building and assembling USA made products. But I am worried with the failure of companies like Boeing and Auto Manufacturers. That we would not fair much better. As peoples moral value has declined so went the will to put pride into what you do. The education and training is only as good as the person that is willing to put forth the effort. And it seems like so many Americans feel they are under paid. While agreeing to do the work and complaining about the pay. You agree on that up front. Then you do the best job that you can do and build it with the idea that your name means something. And you would put your name on that product. Thanks for the heads up Joe. Glad I bought my stuff 3 years ago for my GTX. And my Challenger 12 years ago. Boy I wish I knew how to weld. I would get further along on my GTX. But the Challenger is good enough to go to Cruise Ins😁
Thanks Randy
China for the win lol
🇨🇳
Feel the weight difference between the repop & the original? SMH
These felt decently heavy, from all the extra waves they threw in 😅
@@JustMoparJoe 🤣
Yikes!!!
Wow that's disappointing especially if you wanted top notch 😞. But that's what AMD is ordering. Made over yandere 😢
It’s true
Paint them lol
Chrome will show every defect in a bumper if the bare metal was not prepped properly. Bad finishing, you might as well re-chrome your bumpers and spend the extra cash. Who wants to look at that crap every day?
It’s one of those things that you know is there and your eyes will
Always go to it
Man that looks bad
Pretty Rough
$350 should at least buy better than that hammered dog shit!
Here's a cost saving tip for AMD, and thier customers....
Somebody at AMD (or even in China) opens the box, and looks at the product BEFORE they ship it!
That’s a superb idea! Thanks Ty
Very sad.
So far they were responsive and apologetic. I will update when the new ones show up.
@@JustMoparJoe That is a good positive.
It's driver quality, not show quality. For the price, not worth it. I'll paint my old ones before buying new.
It’s true. Thanks Paul
That’s pretty ugly, the disappointing quality is why folks are paying $1000+ to rechrome their originals. And it’s not just repop Mopar stuff, Brand X guys have the same issues…
Yes sir
Everything is junk lately
And way overpriced !
It's no wonder folks just drive their junk the way it sits.
Hey Joe,
Tim here, AWFUL QUALITY bumper.......i mean just take the old one, sand scratch the crap outa it, dip it, call it good, send it......AWFUL, and i aint even halfway thru ur vid......i saw all the dings/dents, but i also saw 80 grit sandind marks.....i mean wft??....ugh
Yes sir. I’ll update on the final install date on how they fixed the issue.
@@JustMoparJoe well lets hope they spend 1 more prep hour, before the dip!!!.......at least, and then NOT make u spend ANY $!!!! product was awful!!!!......oh, my beater may make 600 hp, and its ugly, but for "new dudes" for it, NO, NO BEUNO!!....PEACE my brother!!
Yuck