5 Things That Jane Austen Films Always Get Wrong About the Dancing
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- "Part of Virtual JaneCon 2020: 5 Things That Jane Austen Films Always Get Wrong About the Dancing
English Country Dance caller and historical dance enthusiast Cassiane Mobley talks about 5 important historical details that Jane Austen film adaptations always get wrong.
Scholarly Sources and Further Reading:
Susan de Guardiola, "Regency Dancers Don't Turn Single: Ten Tips for Judging Authenticity" www.kickery.co...
"What did Jane Austen Dance?" www.kickery.co...
Paul Cooper, "The Regency Waltz," www.regencydan...
"Regency Era Country Dances: Form" www.regencydan...
"Regency Era Country Dances: Figures"
www.regencydan...
Allison Thomson, "Dances from Jane Austen's Assembly Rooms" (2019) ISBN: 978-0-578-52776-5, allisonthompson.com
Graham Christian, "The Playford Assembly" (2015) The Country Dance and Song Society
Apparently, turning single has been unfashionable since at least over 200 years.
:D :D
In that era , not being married by a certain age was almost a sentence of perpetual servitude to your parents because you would have no other means if support . if your older brother inherited , you would be depended on what ever kindness he would bestow , if any , but he was under no obligation to do so . usually , the oldest son got the house , money , kind , in fact everything . if he wanted to keep it all fir himself , well , the law was on his side , and he could do as he wanted . after all , he was more than likely married with his own family and wanted to improve his own social standing .
@@howardwayne3974 Oh, yeah sure. I was just making a pun because apparently "turning single" is a dance move that was unfashionable back then
I laughed at that one too :)
Thank you so much. This finally answers one of the questions that really bugged me: HOW did they know what to dance?
Imagine the stress the first lady had to go through, dancing in front of EVERYONE and finding nice choreographies for a whole evening.
At Scottish Country Dancing dances you get a programme book at the door or with the ticket/invitation.
That typically has the 'cribs' for 21 dances. 18 plus 3 'extras' which are only danced if there is enough time. If you're not experienced and dancing regularly, it IS a lot to memorise. (Especially if there aren't enough men and you have to 'be a man' half the time!)
The dances are arranged in 3s, a jig, Strathspey and reel. Usually there is only a pause between each group of 3 dances. There is a supper after the first 9 dances.
Most dances are not 'walked through' first. And often not even 'called' first. Typically a few complex dances might be called with maybe 1 actually walked through before being danced.
More experienced couples often opt to be 'top couple' in a set.
Typically only the first tune, of 3 or 4, is ALWAYS paired with a particular dance. The others are usually chosen by the band or host.
The only dances typically done with an unlimited longwise set, are 'Orcadian' or Shetland variants. Most commonly the Orcadian Strip-the-willow. Which are more informal and danced at ceilidhs. In those dances there IS that period of waiting that she called a courtesy start.
So what she describes is very, very similar to modern Scottish Country Dancing, including the tempos and NO walking or waltzing during the dances. And NO couple dances.
@@louisehogg8472 Well off families employed dancing masters or mistresses to teach young folks dances at home, so they would be more fluid. I've heard of the superior female calling which dances they chose, but not to make up figures on the spot. That would be disastrous, and the first two or three couples would also have to be good dancers. Maybe she worked them out and practiced beforehand. But speaking from experience, people go astray very easily even in well called dances.
Fascinating. My gripe with adaptations is where every room has a dozen candles burning, EVEN DURING THE DAY!
And when everyone LEAVES with the candles burning... MAJOR fire hazard
As someone who is fascinated with dance and a huge Austen fan, I am so delighted to have discovered you.
Fantastic job writing, editing and filming this! Very informative and entertaining. Cassiane you're very engaging and knowledgeable. And Christopher great work shooting this.
Cannot WAIT for your dance scene analyses, as someone who delights in modern English Country Dance, this was so informative, I love it :)
Fantastic.
We had to do country dancing every morning at school. It is called Bush Dancing here.
And when I went to get a treadmill test at the cardiologist's office, I was doing ok. Then they made me talk as well. I can see how dancing and talking would be difficult, especially if one wanted to maintain one's dignity. Gasping for breath is unflattering.
as an Austen and dance nerd I really appreciate all the historical info and explanation.
Thank you for addressing the music! That always annoys me about any historical film!
I found this very interesting. This lady is certainly knowledgeable on the subject of historic dancing. The only thing I would say is that the tunes, dance steps, etc, shown in Austen adaptations, are partly chosen to help pace a scene, and draw the audience’s attention to specific actions of the characters. That ballroom scene in the 1995 TV dramatisation of P&P, for example - where Lizzie and Darcy touch hands for the first time - with its slow music and slow movements, would have had far less dramatic impact if the two of them had been bouncing around to a jig!
OMG! So clever and well-done. Can't wait to see the next video!
Fascinating! I'm also curious which films you showed clips of! I recognize the two P&Ps of course, but there were a couple of scenes I didn't recognize at all and I thought I'd seen almost all Austen adaptations.
I recognize Northanger Abbey (2007 version). Oh, Mr. Tilney is soooo lovely, “a most agreeable young gentleman”.
Aw I recognize “the young widow” (6:39) from the meryton ball in 2005 P&P
We learned English country dancing in music class during elementary school. I loved the Virginia reel.
Wow, I have never heard of a courtesy start. But I'm very glad we don't have those at our English country dances! I'm 17 and I love dancing. I would hate to stand there for so long. lol
Thank you for the video. I like to learn accurate history. I did find it hard to follow the terms that didn't include visuals. It is much easier to hear the term and explanation and see it performed. Otherwise its like learning how to dance from a book which is extremely difficult.
For variations on a theme, or a dance---
English longways country dance---see
the wide variety of ECD derivations in
Mexico, C & S America, Caribbean
for example
contradanza, by this title
Cuba
Mexico
Venezuela
Peru (Indigenous--- all men, or men and
women) etc.
contredanses Haiti. Haute Tailless ? 1
other titles in S countries of S America
Pericon
Cielito
Sajuriana.
Media Cana,
Los Amores, etc.
Minuet variations
Minue, Nacional
" Federal
" Montenero,
Refalosa/Resbalosa (at least partly)
etc., etc.
1 Haute Taille, of Gouadeloupe and
Martinique, has been called part
Contredanse + part Quadrille.
Mid and late 1800s S America, Caribou etc. borrowed Euro top dances--- local versions of Waltz, Mazurka, Galop,
Schottische, Quadrille, ECD, etc.+
own unique couple dances, like Candombe for couples, Milonga in.early
or mid 1800s Argentina and Uruguay
Jarabe Tapatia etc in Mexico.Maxixe
and very early samba for couples in Brazil, many S of S America couple
dances with separated partners with
arms high in Spain Portugal Italy folk
style but steps, moved totally different
( these started in 1800 to 10 Independence era and are still.being danced to some extent today + overlap
ping ECD variations.
All these and more (like more Afro style
dances, like real rumbas, some equally
old.)
Hope that these are interesting and helpful.
Enjoy !!!
More great styles---- danza Puertoriquena (PR danza) &
danza cubana (Cuban danza)
danza are 2 very similar couple
dances that came from Cuba and
PR contradanzas--- like El, Sanguembulo,
Cuba, 1813 !!!--- syncopated rhythms that
Jane Austen never heard but probably
would have loved to play & to dance.
I....Love....This....Channel!!!!
When did walking become prevalent in English Country Dancing? I've recently started attending 2 groups who do ECD, and there is lots of walking. I've done Scottish Country Dance for years, and you never walk during any SCD, so it is sort of jarring to me. Also, at least in my classes, which are for any level, even beginners, there is no direction to place the foot with the toes first, so the walking is heel to toe, and very pedestrian. Is this usual for ECD, even at a higher level?
The young widow was played in the Pride and Prejudice movie from 2005 ;)
Almacks Assembly rooms were where the arbiters of what dances were permitted and what young ladies were allowed to dance in Regency times. Girls were only permitted to dance the waltz when given permission by one of the Patronesses! There's an interesting webpage about a Band leader there at the time.
www.regencydances.org/paper010.php
Yes, I love Mr. Cooper's research papers, and I'm mentioning Almack's in an upcoming video.
Can I ask you the name of the music in the background? Thank you!
They are all royalty-free tracks we acquired from various music sites. My husband likes to keep the names a trade secret!
It’s the Branle des Chevaux as noted by Thoinot Arbeau, and published in the “Orchésographie” in 1589.
@@seidenweberin Spot on! It was a bit startling to hear a 16thC tune in a film on dancing around 1800 made with the aim of historical accuracy; also some other non-18thC music which I couldn't identify. At the risk of blowing my tutorial trumpet too loudly, Cassiane, may I gently suggest using CDs issued by the Historical Dance Society? (UK) They're all recorded on period instruments by historically informed musicians and cover 16th to 19thC. If you mentioned HDS somewhere in the credits, you could use any of them without copyright tangles.
PS Sorry, I seem to have clicked the wrong bit. This is not Alessandra but Ann Hinchliffe, historical dance tutor. I shall enjoy watching more of your videos.
@@annhinchliffe8314 Thanks for the tip! I actually will be needing some recordings with historically accurate instrumentation in my upcoming videos, so that's a great resource!
Now pleeeeeease I need to know, which is the most accurate dance scene you have seen in a Jane Austen adaptation?
It's really hard to say. They all mess up in ways I find distracting. I can definitely tell you what the worst are, but the best is much more challenging. It's more like I see one dance that is decent followed by a couple that aren't. All the adaptations are a bit uneven, so I prefer just to point out various elements that I like. I know that's not the most satisfying, but it's the only answer I can give.
Loved this video and would have actually loved one with all the mistakes XD
Please, no background music!
It's such a niche topic but I'm so glad I found it in my recommendations. Now I finally know what was up with all those conversations during dance scenes. I always wondered about that
I'm so glad you enjoyed it! TBH it's so niche that I never really thought it would get popular like this, and I'm still kinda in shock.
Will you be reviewing Sanditon (2019)? It has a very weird dance that I wondered how accurate it is.
I will be covering it, but I can tell you right now that stuff was all modern.
I love this kind of information! but I've been worrying about what happened if you had a longways dance "for as many as will" but the number of couples didn't divide by three? If you had just one couple extra, did they tag onto the set before them, making it a set of four couples? Did the last four couples divide into two sets of two couples? Or did the supernumerary couple give up and leave the dance altogether?
Oh, the couple at the bottom would just wait a little longer. Eventually the dance will progress down to their place.
I'm just here for the history of social dances. For a time, I collected dance cards, but the earliest ones I have are late 1800 so they are in no way relevant to this. I was in one contra dance group locally for a while (that's called dancing). What they're not also likely to show is how those dances might fall apart. I had that happen to me a time or two.
My first ever ECD I was so confused that I literally brought down the whole set! I was so embarassed!
As much as we think they should have been up-to-date the reality probably was that new music would’ve taken a long time to get all the way out to the English countryside and they would have used music that they already had and loved because they didn’t always have spare money to buy the latest music which was expensive to print at the time. If we go to a Gatsby party we dress and dance like they did 100 years ago so to me that’s not much different xx
As a Scottish Country dancer we all know why they slow it down and walk it. Because to actually learn the footwork and dance it quickly to tempo, it takes a lot of skill to actually look good.
Absolutely!I often tell people that modern Scottish is closer to Regency than modern English!
How I wish we could transport you back to the Jane Austen times, so that you can learn all that was
historically accurate.
Have you watched the BBC documentary "Pride and Prejudice: Having a ball" ? They tried to recreate the Netherfield ball, in a manner as historically authentic as they could. Topics include music, dancing, clothing, lighting, food & drink.
I would very much like to know what you think of their recreation !
I am covering that in an upcoming video. It's not perfect (no cortesey start), but they get an A for proper footwork, period figures, and period music.
@@teawithcassiane8431 Thanks ! I never know what to make of documentaries. So many are full of misinformation, either through lack of effort and research or through a deliberate will to lie (see almost every single documentary about Lewis Carroll...) even though they are made by supposedly serious channels. And you can't tell whether a documentary is any good unless you already are an expert in the topic...
Anyway, I will be looking forward to your future video on the topic !
Yeah, documentaries are infamously bad. I honestly don't know what else they got wrong because I'm a dance specialist, but yeah, they missed the cortesey start, the duple minor formation is an anachronism, and there is one more mistake that I'll be mentioning in an upcoming video
@@teawithcassiane8431 That particular documentary was taught by Stuart Marsden (who died, I am very sorry to say, only last month). The anachronisms you note, Cassiane, are not his fault! I remember a crowd of us fellow dance tutors falling about laughing at his anecdotes about his dances being 'corrected' by programme producers, by the 'guest stars', and even in one case [the hands-across hold] by the dancers themselves. He was a brilliant keyboard player (harpsichord), full of fun, and extremely knowledgeable. We miss him.
is the color of that dress historically possible, BTW?
I'd say no, but it's especially the fabric that doesn't work.
Ha I've stood awkwardly in silence before
American square dancing derives from this.
Specifically from quadrilles and cotillions, yes.
She is Jane Austen incarnate
ooh so technically the 2005 p&p did get the music right at the assembly, they are playing the widow song
Yup. Check out my dance review of that movie. I particularly commend them for that and another dance from the Netherfield Ball.
@@teawithcassiane8431 I haven't seen that one yet, definitely gonna check it out! thanks!!!
And I thought that it was hard for fashion history buffs to watch period films...
Is fun.
Musicians struggle also.
Ignorance is sometimes bliss... but not with Jane.
I have such a hard time that I have actually rubbed off on my husband!! LOL
I've developed a sort of vicious glee in seeing how badly they can screw up computers and hacking... I imagine that many history buffs develop similar defense mechanisms. 🤣
In Vienna, we still dance the Quadrille at midnight at every dance. Its not a proper ball if that doesnt happen.
as a fellow Austrian, did you also laugh at "dances were fast. even the waltzes" suggesting that waltzes are somehow expected to be slow?
well, the slow waltz is called ENGLISH waltz after all
I can't dance but suddenly I am desperate for this virus to be under control so I can visit.
Wait... balls are still a thing?
@@48mavemiss2 yes, in some countries they are, and it's glorious!!!
A variation of The Young Widow did show up in 2005's P&P! It was the first song in the assembly at the beginning. (I was absurdly excited to recognize that. 🤣)
Thank you! I was wondering where I heard it! 😁
I recognized that too!!
Knew I had heard the song ha! Good ear.
I mean, the people of Highbury were pretty behind the times and rarely had balls. It kinda makes sense that they would not be up on the latest dances.
Good point
Also, this young lady doesn’t apparently know that while normally set in the regency era because published during that period, three of Austen’s novels P&P included, were originally written before the 1800 so it’s more than likely that the dances described there had little to do with regency.
And the country musicians would probably not be up on the latest fashionable tunes.
Wasn't the whole premise of pride and prejudice that Bigley is a hotshot from London and he's new to Highbury? His sister is annoyed at how boring and provincial the area is? Been some time since I read the book.
Also twenty years out of date is different than one hundred!
@@hannahcraig6763 The town of Meryton (in Hertfordshire) is where Bingley's sisters would have found fault with the quality of the local assembly. Highbury is the village from Emma. I think in both instances a case could be made for why the locals would be dancing older dances, but the narrative of Emma particularly emphasizes that she's never traveled and all she knows is Highbury, and that it is kind of a insulated, sleepy place. Mr. Elton's wife comments on it as well- how hard it is to adjust to the provincial life after being from the city.
Omg😳your resemblace with Jane Austen’s portrait is impressive...
It is rather uncanny
Shocking
Okay wow.....reincarnation?
Literally the first thing I noticed.
One thing I'd love to see in films is varying degrees of skill and age represented. Arbeau (I know, wrong period) speaks of young people doing more athletic movements during dances, and generally speaking, that's true when you look at real world social dance. So I would love to see in a movie, the "city" folk doing some fancier footwork, and the "country" folk copying it in the next go round and older couples just keeping on the way they've always done.
When I was a teenager in Northern England, about 60 years ago, every dancing get together always had at least one Bradford barn dance, where the girls were in an outer circle, with the boys inside, and the boys began with one girl and moved from one to the next, doing the usual dance routine with each, until the music stopped. Great way to get a chance to dance with those you fancied without being embarrassed by refusal or shyness and for everyone to get to dance, because everyone always stood up for the Bradford Barn dance. Sounds a lot like one you mentioned in your treatise, without naming it as such. We did plenty of those old country dances in those days. Things got quite boisterous at times, but there were always adults about to keep an eye on us. Most popular was the Sunday dance at the local Catholic Parish hall with priests keeping a watch for bad behaviour. Never saw any because we knew the rules and most of us were naive and timid anyway. They even had rock and roll and the twist. 😉 Fond memories.
I do Scottish country dance & we still do dances done in the 1700’s as well as last year’s newly devised ones. All ages & all abilities from teenagers to 90+ year olds.
I hope to someday be able to dance like this with my partner
I really enjoy those circle dances where we change partners, unless I wanted to stay with my husband. You get to see how people lead, or not. And don’t have to stay with poor ones long
Ah yes, the beginning of rock and roll. I was born in July of 1950, so for me, what was termed "The British Invasion" in the US featured predominantly in my teen years.
I'm jealous! In my part of the world (Kansas, USA) the Mennonite influence was too strong to make dancing casual and fun. Where it existed, it was always weird, formless contemporary stuff or "slow dance" and you had to be very NOT shy to get involved... with lots of boys not participating. 🙄
"popular dances sounded like this"
*burger king ad comes up*
oh okayyy
I got "looked like this" - and suddenly a bunch of urbanites doing some kind of ... what? hip-hop dancing? break-dancing? whatever the kids call it nowadays ... !
Loathe and hate interruptions by loud and inane ads
LOL !!!!!!! 😆
You'd be surprised how much you can talk when you're dancing, even when you're dancing fast. I knew that my ballroom dance classes were paying off when at the end of a polka I realized that my partner and I had been chatting the entire time even as he was leading me in various patterns around the floor.
Same, I grew up ceili dancing at ceili parties (Irish or depending on where you are Scottish country dancing) which has more intricate footwork than English (as far as I can tell from what was shown here) and literally everyone talks...... it’s a party, that’s kind of part of the point
... are you czech?? Polka is a czech dance if i'm not wrong tho. Also you are right you can have a full conversacion even while dalcing viennese waltz. Although it is tiring
Don't! Dancing is a far deeper communication than talk. You ruin the dance when you talk.
@@elinannestad5320 you've never gotten to know a person at a ceilidh, have you?
@@elinannestad5320 girl 😂 you are right only when that that person knows what they are doing.
This post covers my argument about when conversation took place during the dancing and warns against ahistorical arguments that make assumptions about how ECD was danced in the Regency based on how it is done today.
Before anyone argues with me about the issue of when within the dance that the talking occured, please bear in mind that I NEVER said you couldn't talk AT ALL. I explained how there were frequent pauses while dancing up the set and that there was usually a long wait unit the active couple danced down to your spot and "activated" the dance for you. What I DID say is that they wouldn't have has the breath for LONG conversations while dancing as the active couple. They still made short remarks to each other and to other couples, whooped and hollered and did all sorts of exuberant things, but they kept it brief.
The saying in the Regency was "Talk your way up, dance your way down." There was so much time for conversation during the inactive portions of the dance that they didn't need or expect it during the active part. In fact in Jane Austen's novels you can see cases of conversation stopping while they danced down the set in both in P&P AND Northanger Abbey - in fact it happens TWICE during Lizzie and Mr. Darcy's dance!
Commenters on this video have also claimed that their ability to talk through a fast polka renders my breath argument against long conversation while dancing down null and void. To that I say that apart from the complete dearth of evidence of couples saying anything more than was necessary while dancing down in primary sources and the obvious lack of need because all the inactive bits elsewhere, I think most people would have found it extremely challenging to keep up a continuous conversation through 10 minutes of non-stop strenuous cardio, which is how long the dancing down section would have lasted, and is, as you can see, considerably longer than a 2-3 minute fast polka being held up for comparison. I can certainly talk through a 3-minute fast polka at a similar energy level, and I'm fit enough for a 10-minute fast polka, but I doubt I could do a 10-minute fast polka while talking the whole time. If you can, good on you. I'm willing to admit more things in heaven and earth than dreamed of in my philosophy. However in all my extensive dance acquaitance, I don't know of anyone who has done it or even attempted it on principle. Neither do I know of people who talk non-stop while the active couple in a country dance set of 20 couples if they are doing Regency footwork
Apart from the breath consideration, it's also difficult to talk while concentrating on the figures, unless you know them in advance, and I remind you that dances were made up on the spot by the first lady, so you shoul couldn't learn in advance.
Furthermore in the BBC documentary Jane Austen: Having a Ball, they used professional ballet dancers who were extremely fit to recreate the tempo and footwork of the period. After just one dance they were exhausted and said there was no way they could have enough breath for a long conversation. I think that's some decent corroboration.
In addition I will not listen to people who argue about how they dance modern English country as evidence for how it was done in the Regency. I have gone at great lengths to explain that ECD has changed a lot since its inception. It was drastically different in 1813 than it was in 1650, and the modern continuity owas revived in the early 1900s without any regard for historical accuracy. All of which are well documented and easy to look up online if you Google Cecil Sharp, the folk dance revival, and the various mistakes he and his followers made.
It's also just a logical fallacy to assume that things we do a certain way now must have been done the same way in the past, and if that's your only argument for dismissing my argument, I will remain unconvinced.
That would be, "the taLking thing", I presume ... !
Pin this?
I’m so glad someone has at last corrected this misinformation, although to be fair, we are watching a drama and not a documentary in any Jane Austen adaptation.
No one knows exactly how these dances were danced and descriptions, which sometimes accompany them, are vague. We also don’t know correct tempos to the music. Austen herself never mentions specific dances in her novels, even though it’s well known that she enjoyed a good Jig and preferred Cotillions to Quadrilles. Duple Minors are easier to understand than Triple Minors and mean more can dance, or the dance can be converted into a three couple set.
Dances have always been interpreted differently throughout history, even by dancing masters of the time - the great thing is at least they are still being danced and enjoyed. Thank you for posting this interesting analysis.
We actually have a lot of sources of information about music tempos, from the scores themselves to theoretical writings, even as far back as the 15th century. They might not have used our bpm system but there’s still a lot we can figure out.
Although her family prudishly chopped up her diaries they left her favourite sheet music alone including annotations so we know more about her taste in music than her life.
To be fair, for a movie or TV adaptation, they also have to consider the mood of the scene and its place in the overall narrative. It is not just about what they should have danced, but also about what they are trying to convey about the characters.
Exactly....
And also, in many cases, the capabilities of the actors - it can be fun paying attention to what's happening while named characters are dancing and comparing it to what happens in the background while named characters are talking on the sidelines or taking a turn in the garden while the extras, for example, do Jacob Hall's Jig (in the C. Sharp interpretation) indoors.
I think that must be true. Authenticity can't always be the priority with films. The dance has to allow enough time spacing for dialogue and the best angles to film a couple or group, to catch the expressions relevant to the character as well the movement of the dance itself. I imagine they'd have to adapt the dance to the space they're filming in to some extent too as this will be diminished somewhat by the sheer amount of filming equipment. Very interesting video. I certainly learned a lot. Thank you for uploading!
“Do you talk by rule then, while you are dancing?” asks Darcy. That line certainly implies they are talking while dancing. Whatever the accuracy, the dance scene in the BBC version of Pride and Prejudice where Elizabeth and Darcy are sparring is so beautifully edited and so engrossing that I wouldn’t want to change a thing.
I agree. It’s very well done. I love everything about the BBC version!
they were talking while inactive in line..
1980 version, or the later one? ( freely admit that the 1980 one is my favorite.)
They were inactive!
@@nataliej.3579 inactive for some/most of the conversation, but not all. They definitely were talking *while* actively dancing as well- appropriately broken up based on the movements taking them closer to or further away from each other.
13:08 about that... if filmed correctly, such as a P&P adaptation, it could be tense and suspenseful for Lizzie and Darcy to be having this conversation as the dancers begin to dance nearer and nearer with each set.
And given the subject of the famous conversation it goes from small talk to A more tense conversation - a fuse to a bomb almost. They have to say all they want to before their time comes to begin.
I love that idea! Please tell all the major studios and networks!
I think that is one of the only ways you could talk film folks into doing the delayed start. Framing it as slowly building tension and release.
It could also be used to build that awkwardness Lizzie is feeling -- you start with the first lady, and then cut back and forth between Darcy and Lizzie, the dancing couples, and all the inactive couples. ...
I love both of these ideas!
An example of what the dance would have looked like would have been helpful, for comparison.
I don't believe that's what her interest was. Seemed to be more focused on why our favorite Jane Austen adaptations are actually complete failures. Pretty messed up if you think about it.
It's probably a bit hard to find, but it would have been interesting.
I understand this Dan e Mr Beveridge's maggot was used :
janeausten.co.uk/blogs/games-to-play/how-to-dance-mr-beveridges-maggot
Exactly what I was hoping for in this video.
@@callmeswivelhips8229 she literally said it's only about dancing, not about the whole adaptation, what's even the point in your comment .
Thank you! :) That was really interesting.
To be honest, all the time I thought that in the famous 1995 P&P dancing scene Sir William just randomly interrupts Darcy's & Elizabeth's dance for a chat and they accept it to not be impolite.
But now, with the explanation about the dancing line and the pause at the end, the whole situation suddenly makes much more sense :D
Sir William was Sir Hugh in 1975's Poldark and still just as pushy... :-)
To be fair I don't think anyone at the BBC back in 1995 could have predicted that a possibly unborn girl would one day have the technology to both discover all their little anachronisms and then turn around and broadcast them to everyone on planet Earth with a handheld device who cared, for free
I appreciate that you think I might not have been born in 1995. In fact not only was I alive but I also remember the clamour when it was released, and my kid self said, "Pride and Prejudice? Sounds boring!"
@@teawithcassiane8431Hehe my mum had the box set on video. I was practically raised on it
I was beyond thrilled to find this video! As a former dancer and lifelong Austin fan, may I congratulate you on such an informative and entertaining video?!
Oh my Dear, dance tunes and dance forms persist over very long periods. The use of Baroque tunes in 1800 was very likely. Music gets handed down for generations. I have some music from the 1880's and that was 140 years ago. This gives perspective to Austen folk playing music from 1680. Music and dances from the 1950's are still popular today and that was 70 years ago! What was performed in fashionable London in 1820 may have been the latest thing, but country dances in country towns very likely reflected long local tradition. I'm sure they liked their "oldies" too! People living in the country had a much smaller repertoire, both of music and of choreography. And there must have been a lot of local variation in styling. The musicians were local tradespeople who learned from their parents, etc which perpetuated forms that were probably considered very old fashioned and "countryfied" by elegant town people. I'm sure stately old court dances were enjoyed then as they are now. You gotta have a break from all that jigging, and the Old Folks want to have a chance to dance at least once. I dearly love to contra dance, as we call it here in the US. We invent dances to any music with a big beat. I'll bet they did too.
Viz, in Denmark we still have one square set of five dances, called Les Lanciers, that has survived and is still danced today at court balls, sic! That dance is at the latest from the 1840s. I have heard of it being danced in Ireland as well.
This would have been a perfect comment without the totally unnecessary “oh dear” at the beginning lol. Made you sound all condescending and shitty instead of someone just sharing their knowledge!
If they used one or two songs, maybe. But almost all music is not accurate, nor is the clothing. And to understand the times better, accuracy is key. The same way ppl get weird ideas about corsets and then portray them in movies as if they're prisons. I wish we wrre at least aware "artistic freedom" changes our perception and the meaning.
But to the extent all dancing would've been in that fashion? In every movie? It would seem strange if a contemporary movie would present music form the 60', and make it look like the norm.
@@annebritraaen2237 I agree, it would be like a movie showing modern teenagers doing 1950s rock'n'roll music and dancing, and it not being a theme party. The whole definition of fashion is current popularity!
Timestamps:
0:34 time period
1:04 english country dancing
2:44 longways set
4:26 reel
4:53 last dance of the evening (le boulangère)
5:25 start of the list
5:32 1) the tunes
7:48 2) the footwork
8:58 3) the figures
10:01 4) the first lady
10:45 5) the courtesy start
12:53 outro
Bit of a late response but thank you for the list and the timestamps. Very helpful!
I must disagree on the talking part as well. It is perfectly doable to dance and have chit chat at the same time even with more up-tempo pieces. We do traditional dances that resemble closely the regency dances. The only problem is that sometimes it is hard to hear what your partner is saying, as there is lot talk, laughter, music and footsteps around you! Especially when there's a part where you turn and don't face each other.
This was very enjoyable and interesting video, great work!
Jane Austen was there, and she definitely has her characters talk while dancing. Having a TH-cam channel doesn't make this person the ultimate authority. We still waltz to tunes well over 100 years old, don't know why she thinks music from the previous century would be beyond the pale.
@@annainspain5176 While i agree with you in most parts, i think the “ ‘out of fashion’ music” in her video is still not wrong. She was talking about people in Jane Austen’s class - the high society. To my knowledge, every they did was trendy, “in vogue” at the time, just like fashionista don’t wear last year dresses or an influencers don’t jam to the “lame” 80s music. So yeah, i think waltzing to tunes well over 100 years old must had been considered “lame” at those high class parties.
@@thienkimnguyen1260 But the people in Jane Austen's novels are not "the high society." They are, roughly, the "upper middle class" - the country gentry with a scattering of minor titles and genteel professionals among them. There are a few "fashionista" type characters, but they are only occasionally the ones actually giving or organizing the ball. There probably should be MORE contemporary music, but acting like there wouldn't be any is like imagining that no one would ever play The Beatles or Queen at a modern day party.
@@StarryEyed0590 This and Darcy even questions Bingey's desire to buy a home amongst the "country" folk. People in the country may be a bit behind, they have a smaller list of musicians to hire who may not know all of the contemporary music being played in high society, etc. They may not even know all of the most current dances.
As for some standing still for 15 min before a dance? I think most of us understand things are done for the sake of a movie and not because people at BBC don't know what they are doing.
@@annainspain5176 You sound a little annoyed.....
0:12 Cassiane: "There are only two types of Austen fans. P&P 1995 fans and P&P 2005 fans."
Lizzie Bennet Diaries fans: "But--"
Cassiane: "Two types."
What about Bridget Jones’ Diary?
@@CaenaGrey Two types.
What's Lizzie Bennet diaries?
I guess she's wrong, then. Because there's also 1980 BBC fans, the best production yet.
@@SafetySpooon We all make mistakes, SafetySpooon.
I forgive your blasphemy.
These dances are so much fun. I have done Scottish country dancing and it is similar.
In the 2005 version of P&P, there is a short long dance scene, on a pacy version of "Young Widow" !
Yup, I cover it in my review of that version!
@@teawithcassiane8431
I forgot to mention that your channel is a gem for us history geeks !
I'm glad you were on my recommended content !
I like that you pointed this out but given that most people set their adaptation is the Regency era which started in 1811 5 years before Austen's death this is more than likely why most films and tv adaptations use dances from two years before her death
The Regency era lasted until 1820 when the Prince Regent was officially Crown King George IV after his father died
He was King for 10 more years before his death in 1830
So if they are going for more Regency styles they are technically correct
Given that Pride and Prejudice was released in 1811
Sense and Sensibility in 1813
Mansfield Park in 1814
Emma in 1815
Persuasion and Northanger Abbey in 1817
It is quite possible that while she might not have danced the dances of the day she did more than likely go to balls and people watch and she could imagine what it would be lil to be a young girl of the time
She died pretty young even for her time at 41
I get that you want them to be closer to something from Jane Austen’s youth but that wouldn't be the Regency Era that would be the late Georgian/Romantic period at least when she was born
1795 which is called the Common Era she would have been 20 she would have been dressed in something more closer to how Mrs. Bennet dressed in the 2005 version of the film
given the fact that she both wrote and based her novels in the Regency Era they would dance the way they dance in the Regency Era whether they dance more like the later or the early part of that era ironically feels like nitpicking
I completely see the irony of me nitpicking the claim that the dances are not historically accurate because Jane Austen wouldn't have danced them but I'm ok with my irony
You have to remember that Jane wasn't a young woman during the Regency Era she would have been in her mid-30s to her early 40s
Very interesting - I didn’t know any of this and it’s fascinating.
This dancing is still alive and well, I used to go often with my grandparents in their village hall. It's actually a lot of fun, you just have to learn the moves and then usually we would have someone calling out the steps so you didn't have to remember it all in sequence for all the different songs. :)
In the United States this style of dance landed in Appalachia and evolved into Contra Dance. Which is still active as a dance form to this day ( and for that matter so are English country dance in Scottish Highlands) with live bands and dance groups all across the country. Most are paused for the pandemic I'm sure. I miss it so much! Contra is definitely on my post vaccine to do list but there is way too much touching for now. I wonder though if it would be possible to do English country dance at a distance?
As a classically educated musician my first thought was, "The music is wrong! Wrong time period!"
Has anyone else noticed that the Paltrow 'Emma' uses one of the same dance tunes as the 1995 P&P?
I've been to a couple of ceilidhs so it was fun to see some similarities in this video!
I spent my childhood dancing Norwegian folk dance in traditional dress and long story short I found costube and now I found you! I'm amazed every day at how familiar history can be and how much there still is to explore!
The historically accurate tunes are great. Couldn't she get some friends together and show us how the dances really looked? Maybe it's too much to ask for, but I don't just want to hear about how costumes and dances should be. I wish I could see them.
I am planning on dance demo videos in the future, but unfortunately I started this channel during a global pandemic, and the metro area in which I live remains under shelter-in-place orders. It is unlikely that I'll be able to start making dance videos until 2021, but they will eventually be here.
@@teawithcassiane8431 Yay! Take the time you need. It'll be great.
@@teawithcassiane8431 I throughly sympathise with starting a project focused on something you live during a difficult time. My own Jane Austen project which eventually resulted by a country-wide society and events all-year round also came about during a sort of personal crisis I experienced in 2010/2011. And lo - here we are in 2020, still dancing. :-) We could start meeting again after May 25 when the measures started relaxing, so we have already held two dance club sessions since then. I know it was a sad a trying time, to just sit at home - I missed the dancing and the people so much. I wish you all the best and may you also be able to dance with your friends soon! :-)
"couldn't she get some friends together"...man, I wish ... Seeing people hadn't happened in nearly a year...
Jane Austin actually loved twerking. She'd do it every evening all over her house.
I love Jane Austen, I like history and I'm trying to improve my English... This was the perfect video for me
Wow! I always thought they looked like contra folk dances and figured they were related. Guess I was right
Yup - I like to say that Contra is a cousin to English Country dancing - just sweatier and less compliated ;)
Fascinating! I'm a huge JA fan! I've read almost evertthing on this period EXCEPT the particulars of period ballroom dancing! One can't help but be aware of all the shortcomings of film adaptations, some being better than others. I believe there is a ballroom scene in every one of her books. It's unfortunate that an accurately depicted ballroom scene wouldn't translate well to film. Or could it?
Anyone else having a hard time listening because you're calling the dance steps to the background song in your head?
Elizabeth and Darcy explicitly discuss talking whilst dancing... whilst they are actually dancing. So it must have been expected.
The whole point of my video is that Regency English Country dances were done in such a way that couples had lots of moments of temporary inactivity in which to talk, and they were expected to make conversation, but they were expected to concentrate while actually executing figures. Please also see my pinned comment that I specifically did not say no conversation.
I am happy to quote primary sources to prove this, and if you are interested in an in-depth perspective on Austen as a primary dance source as well as many useful links to scholarship on this subject, I have an hour long- lecture that is much more useful than this little piece of clickbait.
This is so helpful. Even though I’ve been doing English Country dancing, this helps me understand it more deeply and within its historical context.
When I did English country dancing in the 1960s and 70s, and Scottish country dancing into the 1980s, we generally used 4-couple sets, but not in duple-minor (as I recall). Generally the lead couple progressed down the four-couple set and then stood out, and each couple below the second couple was inactive. I think some dances were done in duple-minor, but not the majority. I'm sure it has changed over time, as you point out so well. I don't recall any dances being in a slow tempo, except the Scottish Strath Spey, a very stately sort of dance, generally.
I think, if you have a look at Scottish or Irish ceili dances, you get a very good impression ❤️👍
Listening to you pick apart something I love has brought me tremendous joy! Thank you for taking the time to share this fascinating information, I greatly appreciate your videos. ❤
I’ve danced duple and triple minors as well as proper and improper, progressing up and down the set and staying within the minor set.
Also why wouldn’t older music still be played?
In the novel they are dancing while having their infamous conversation. I do agree with everything else on your list.
Do you think that they use the walking instead of pas de bourré? I’ve seen non dancers struggle A LOT with it, and change it into walking or chassé.
Very informative, indeed. I've always wondering about the dance scenes in period films. Just for curiosity, which films do you think that the director(s) got the dance scenes correct?
This is interesting! Lots of things I didn't know, especially the ages of the music. I read or saw an interview which explained why the dances in most movies are so slow/walking...it's because it's too hard to train a cast to dance with all that fancy footwork. That could use a dance troupe as extras but the main actors still limit what a choreographer could do.
Brilliant! Thanks, Cassie! I've been EC dancing for decades and I never knew much of this. I love that!
I always thought there was something off about the way the conversations took place during the dances in P&P. They seemed very awkward, and improbable. Thanks for explaining that they never really happened that way.
Does she mean country or contra dancing. Contra as in 2 lines of dancers facing each other.
In America it's called contra, but in England it's called country dance. Confusing, I know.
I’m sure I’ve heard “The Young Widow” in an Austen adaptation.... can anyone tell me which one?
I distinctly remember is in the 2005 Pride and Prejudice. However, the version of that song in the movie adaptation seems to have a slightly faster tempo and an extra instrument or two compared to the one here. It also goes by a different name when you check the soundtrack
Excellent, Cassiane! I found this video both interesting and informative. I was attracted to 'Regency dancing' because of the 1995 P&P and have been hooked on it ever since - I have become better educated about the correctness of music and dances within the adaptations during the years (although I confess that Mr. Beveridge's Maggot the infamous Elizabeth and Darcy conversation dance, albeit historically incorrect, is still my favourite). I have had numerous 'differences of opinion' with other dancers who claim that all the dances would have been walked and who chide me for skipping. It's great to be exonerated! Thank you 😊
Oh absolutely. In Mansfield Park, everyone realize that Fanny has become fatigued at the ball because she starts walking the figures!
I've (unfortunately) never done any Regency ballroom dancing, but I have done musical theater dancing. If I can belt You Can't Stop the Beat in tune with the rest of the ensemble while performing a high-energy dance, I'm sure a Regency couple could chat while sashaying around each other
I think your use of the word 'chat' is important. Yes, indeed, it's possible to make short remarks and responses while dancing, as Lizzie and Darcy do. But longer or more serious conversations would have to wait till you were standing out. If you try to say something at length while you're doing a hands-across or circular hey, for example, you'd be facing away from your partner 50% of the time so they wouldn't hear you. BTW, I take my hat off to you for singing and dancing high-energy stuff -- real talent!
Nice job of explanation, and the clips are really enjoyable to watch even if they're anachronistic. Thanks!
Have to disagree on the beauty of a unified start outshining a courtesy start.
First time I ever did contra we did a courtesy start with the dancers progressing from the most experienced (top of the line) to dancers paired with the least experienced at the end so the newer dancers would have ample time to watch and learn as the first pair moved down the line before jumping in. I think it looked way more stunning because the whole room was slowly eaten up by the movement as it worked down the line. My (thankfully much more experienced) partner and I were dead on the end. It looked epic!
While contra is not the same, it's a lot of similar moves and I was taught some English country dances once upon a time. Totally agree, chatting while dancing isn't likely. The dances are fast with lots of back and forth across the line, and with meeting all the other pairs down the line as well, there just isn't much time for casual chit-chat, never mind a whole heated conversation without it getting incredibly rude.
I'm guessing that's why they choose slower paces for the dances. When your connections with your partner are pretty swift and somewhat brief those conversations just don't flow right, but while lazily going through the steps at a moderate to slow pace that walking is the only way to do it without looking ridiculously in slow motion, those conversations can be well paced.
I'm actually really thrilled that so many people are in favor of seeing a courtesy start on film. I would love to see one, personally - it's the filmmakers who don't want them.
so basically the 1995 adaptation has really just one problem - lack of Curtesy Start. That would not look great on the screen. Så what were all those 12 minutes about? (yeah all other adaptations are basically bad, we all know it)
i've always wondered about these sort of details!
I'm a musician in our Dover, DE ECD band. Of course, we do play dance tunes from the 1500's up to the early 1800s for our demonstrations, and at our regular dances play a few 20th century tunes as well. I never thought of shunning a tune because it was "old". Most of our demos are set around the American Revolution, with a few Regency dances. We don't go forward in time but do go back. I would think there were some favorites they dredged up, even back then. Tithe Pig (1561) and Dublin Bay, for instance. Both so fun.
Wow....every day is a school day....however as the great Voltaire said...”let’s us read and let us dance...these two amusements will never do any harm to the world”....even if the adaptations get the dance moves wrong 😃
Currently working on a Regency au fanfic and just got to the dance scene. Remembered watching this video and now I've consulted back to it so I can make accurate references to the dance. Just wanted to say thanks for the help!
(Me adding trains so I can include the train themed blorbo: I am not going to be precious about historical accuracy.
Me getting to the ball scene: Okay well one must have *standards*.)
Why do you think that no music from the past even 100 years ago would never have been used? So you answered your question why standing still waiting to dance to have their conversation would not have been as effective a scene as Lizzie and Mr. Darcy conversing while dancing.