Antinatalist interview-Amanda
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Soft White Underbelly interview and portrait of Amanda, an antinatalist in Chicago.
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Before I say anything else, I want to take a moment to say my most sincere thanks to Mark for welcoming me on to the channel, and for allowing me to speak my Antinatalist worldview. I have been a huge fan of Soft White Underbelly for a long time now, and so to be a guest on a channel that I respect & love so much is a huge honor, and a dream come true, thank you!
I addition, I want to thank all those that have left comments - even the nasty ones - I appreciate all of you for listening, and for engaging with the idea at all, even if you find that you hate it and that it disgusts you. Antinatalism is a difficult, uncomfortable, controversial subject, but one I believe to be of the utmost importance - it is perfect prevention - and so once again, I thank you all for listening.
A couple of things that I keep seeing in the comments that I would like to address -
“These are just first world problems” - No. Antinatalism is a global phenomenon - we are everywhere. I have met Antinatalists from nearly every walk of life, race, creed, religion & socioeconomic status. Some of the biggest AN communities online originate from Lebanon, India & Egypt, and some of the best and most well know contemporary Antinatalist philosophy comes from places such as South Africa, Finland & Brazil.
“Why don’t you just go kill yourself?” - This is hands down the most common response that Antinatalists receive when the subject comes up, so for anyone who thinks that this is some kind of cleaver response, I’m afraid you couldn’t be more mistaken. Killing myself will not end suffering, it will not end procreation, & it will not fix any of the problems here on planet earth that Antinatalism seeks to address. In addition to being an Antinatalist, I am indeed also a Right to Die activist, so yes, I do believe that people should have the right to exit existence, just as much as I believe they should have the right not to have existence imposed in the first place - But there is nothing at all illogical or hypocritical about an Antinatalist remaining alive once we are here - someone else decided that I should exists - I am alive, and once we are alive, the desire to continue to exist is strong, life becomes an addiction, and not one so easily severed. In addition to this, Antinatalists have an important job to do in protecting the unborn from being brought into existence - and so I will remain alive as long as I can to continue that fight.
Live your life, so that perhaps by your efforts, someone else will not have to endure theirs.
“She must be miserable!” - I have lived and continue to live a very good and happy life. I’m an artist, I’m a toy collector, I have love in my life, friends, meaning, and I get to live my dreams by being an activist for someting I am passionate about, and doing awesome stuff like being a guest on Soft White Underbelly : ) The point is, when we create someone, we impose the risk of creating someone who will not enjoy being alive, who may experience great suffering, and who will inevitably die - and we do so for no other reason than our own selfish desires - that is not an ethical or necessary risk to take with someone else’s sentient welfare.
“Is she vegan??” - I have been a vegan for 8 years. Yes, there are fat vegans, what do you know? ; )
“I love my children and it was the best thing I ever did.” Please love your children, be the best parents you possibly can be. But please also know that by bringing someone else into existence, you have imposed tremendous risks on to the new beings, that they may not in fact be nearly as happy about. You are not in control of who that person will be and or is, and you can not control what they will experience. This is not about YOU, it’s about THEM - those you will create - their suffering, their welfare, their experiences & their eventual death.
If anyone would like to learn more about Antinatalism, I invite you all to check out a recent essay by Antinatalist philosopher Matti Häyry & I called, Imposing a Lifestyle: A New Argument for Antinatalism, you can find it here: www.cambridge.org/core/journals/cambridge-quarterly-of-healthcare-ethics/article/imposing-a-lifestyle-a-new-argument-for-antinatalism/D31CFBA4E8BB207D7C24A68E415A8AB0#article
And I also have a show called The Exploring Antinatalism Podcast, which has been running for almost 5 years strong now, and is one of the best places to learn all about the subject and hear from Antinatalist philosophers, artists & activist from all over the world:
th-cam.com/channels/A8FKcLhdLOHkZtrsGJGUoA.html
Thank you again Mark for having me on SWU! : )
You’re great.. I’ve had this thought for years now and didn’t know it had a name until now.. I agree with you but I also don’t judge anyone for choosing to reproduce.. If there is a specific name for this version please let me know! Appreciate you!
Youre doing great work Amanda
@@thuggwaffle8825 hands down, people are absolutely up for criticism if they know the risks and continue to reproduce regardless of the consequences. I understand situation, but situation and whether you can provide doesn't negate whether the life you create will suffer. At the very least when you create someone, you are committing them to death. And that alone is enough for humans (nay all sentient life) to consider not reproducing.
I have an honestly sincere question-- how do you "culturally mandate" an instinct? It's my understanding that an instinct is, literally by definition, an innate, or natural tendency towards something. Is "instinct" another word that has had the definition changed/updated?
@@anniesmomfirst I don’t think the goal is to mandate.. I think it’s to have more people reconsider if they’re having children for selfish reasons or not
I love that your channel is showing more people off of the skid row/drug addict stereotypical past. While their stories deserve a platform, there are so many others who do as well. This is so well done!
Great interview. While I enjoy all the skidrow residents, these philosophy/thought-provoking interviews are fantastic. Keep 'em' coming, please!
I agree with you, and I enjoy the diversity and am grateful for you sharing mark.
i wonder if Mark thinks she has mental health issues as many of the others he interviews 😶
🎉
The human condition is…
it doesn't provoke any thought in me. It's just a sad person.
@@Utah.76what in the goddamn hell are you talking about? 🤣
Man, this interview and Gummo are my favorites. I think it's awesome that you are branching out into different interviews. Fascinating stuff.
I've always thought there is a certain narcissism in wanting to have a child ...and also weird power dinamic teaching them your morals while kids are completely authentic individuals with their own brain and personality ....also expecting them to listen to you because you give them food and shelter while maybe they didn't want to be here in the first place...
WOW! mark I watch your videos every day, and many others on TH-cam and I’ve never ever commented, this one has struck me the most,
Thanks Amanda for this, all my life I have felt just as you, yet I never knew about this community, always feeling utterly alone in these thoughts because whenever I bring them up to others they cannot understand, you’ve worded my feelings so clearly, and thanks so much mark for these interviews❤️
please please check out « stop having kids » it’s an activist group
My thoughts word for word. I watch SWU daily. I enjoy these videos tremendously. This idea has been floating in my head and I have tried to explain as an animal lover and having a sister in DCF. I have found my calling.
See my comment @@melissas.236
Ridiculous people
I've never heard of Antinatalism.. but in less that 27mins she's explained it so well and it kinda makes sense in a sad way!
Glad you liked the video!
Why is it sad?
The sadness comes in the brutal honesty in the fact that humans are the cause of every problem on this planet. Good or "bad," everything else that happens outside of direct human influence is nature. I don't know why people don't consider _human nature_ to be part of that nature when they talk about it, but it is what it is. The only real solution (shrinking our population, at the very least) goes against our innate drive to survive. I'm not an antinatalist, by the way. @@beerwolf8518
@@beerwolf8518 just kinda sad how in 'saving the planet from our harm, and saving future people from harm' basically involves us all just dying out....pretty sad.
@littlebrowngirl4 I might be able to see that. I'm not sure, though. I've had similar thoughts to antinatilism my whole life and I don't know if having a hypothetical planet without anyone on it is necessarily a sad thing. If we weren't here to experience a planet without people, then I don't think we'd be able to assess it as being sad. Of course these thoughts are hypothetical. There's good and bad in the human experience, so wouldn't getting rid of both just be neutral and practical and not sad?
I’ve had thoughts along these lines for years. I didn’t know there was a term for it. Thank you.
do you believe that life is a "gift"?
... of krap
Welcome.
😊🩷🩵
I can’t blame her. Life is nothing but bullshit, pain, and suffering.
It’s all about entropy. In the end, entropy wins.
I had similar thoughts, but from a Christian perspective. At an early age, around 8 or so, I was convinced hell was a real place and through behavior a real consequence, I was angry with my parents for having a child knowing that eternal suffering was a real possibility. I held on to that anger for years
Well at least as a Christian you can lead a life that will avoid this eternal suffering
but as a Christian you know how to avoid that
Well, that's only a convincing argument if you believe that eternal suffering in hell outweighs eternal joy in heaven. They gave you an equal chance at both.
@@grapesodabanked how is it equal if different people have different desires, and the proclivities for enjoyement in things are high in sinful activity
@@sebp9882no he wont because its all fake
I agree with a lot of what she says. All of the child abuse, animal abuse, elderly abuse, hate, rape, murder, prejudice, etc., that is quickly and progressively growing worse by the day, and for what ? Because of bodies filled with hate, insecurities, jealousy, mental derangement. We have created our own non caring world that we are trashing, abusing and murdering everyday.
well don't procreate
And yet the world is safer than it ever was. Freaking internet makes us think we're in constant danger ✌️
What evidence do you have that those things are getting worse? You might try cracking a history book.
😭😭😭
That is so outstandingly shortsighted.
"created our own non-caring world"
Open your eyes. "We"(some of us) have created all varieties of beauty and actual GOOD in this world.
You choose to only look at the negatives...I thought I was a pessimist.
@@therivergivethObjectively better in nearly every way and yet..😬
I love listening to smart, well spoken people like this whether I have the same views or not. Super interesting! Also, any mother will tell you we've all worried about bringing children into the world with all the suffering they may endure throughout their lives. I just never let myself get this deep about it. I'll never forget this quote I heard a few years ago " life IS fair because it's unfair for everyone" this interview made me think of that.
do you think that life is unfair to everyone equally?
Mmm that quote is rather tone deaf tbh. You’d have to be very far removed from the issues folks face in this country or globally to truly be able to hold to that statement without feeling a bit uncomfortable.
Life is unfair... I'll force someone into that situation...
Makes sense smh
So you acknowledge your desire for the personal emotional benefits of being a parent outweigh the concern you had. You are saying you recognize the truth in antinatalism, but found it too painful to truly dig into your own feelings about it so you hushed it away to have babies.
This is exactly the problem. What kind of parent would that person be? Not one I would want a child to have tbh.
@@skateranddancerAgreed. I think there's a lot of people that feel that way. They know that bringing a life into this world is adding to the violence, racism, sexism, bloated population etc etc. If it's them having a kid those truths don't apply. The potential love they'll feel for a child allows them to willfully ignore those truths. It's easy to think that one person's impact on the world is too small to matter compared to the human population. The old "do what I say not what I do" saying".
I had to watch this to find out what a antinatalist was. A very interesting interview and very thought provocing.
As a fellow long-time antinatalist here, I am beyond ecstatic to see someone of like-mind speak so articulately and intelligently on the most important topic. It blows my mind daily in the world to see how few people get it. Thank you Amanda!
She is so well-spoken and I love how well she handles Mark constantly interrupting her 😅
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Facts! That was really annoying. I always enjoyed these interviews… this one made me truly dislike Mark.
He wasn’t that bad 😂
Interesting. I’ve never heard of this. I vowed to never have children at 10, and I’m 35 still without kids. I don’t see the point for myself. But this woman pushes it further. Very interesting interview
Embrace Antinatalistsm.
To spear children from Suffering, Pain and Death.
@user-tn6ec1ud8mhow did you know so early on that you wanted no children?
@user-tn6ec1ud8m One of my daughters pretty much said the same thing. Her little sister decided to have her share as well as her own. Didn't help the environment,or mankind, or the possibility of a less-than-perfect human being born who might end up suffering because of some surprise medical condition. Only refrain from having kids if you don't want to be a parent, cos someone will make up for your shortfall, especially with abortion laws changed.
I never knew there was a name for it, but this is exactly how I've always felt. I absolutely refuse to have kids, and people in my small conservative town think that makes me selfish. The complete opposite is true.
I'm a parent. It is absolutely bizarre to me that people think it's selfish to not have children 🤔 Like, what? Lol.
I agree. I actually think HAVING children is one of the most selfish things you can do. You're literally doing it for yourself.
Oh I hate how smug some procreators are. I didn't have any children because I honeslty think it's better not to be born, yet I have to listen to procreators talk about how they "sacrificed" so much for their children and blah, blah, blah. Well, I sacrificed too by not having children. I gave up the joy of being a parent to spare someone the pain of living. Yet, I'm considered selfish.
Enjoy population collapse then. lol
@@bluejay9890 - You cannot spare something that doesn't exist. Prevent might be the better word. Yet you must also entail the idea that you prevented creating someone who could experience the joy too.
Your expressions also remind me of someone who makes themselves the victim of being around a vegan/vegetarian which I find quite ironic. "I hate how smug some [...] are" as well as "yet I *have* to listen to [...] and blah, blah, blah". It just seems as if you're really sensitive around 'natalists' which is always going to make it hard for you to even have a productive dialogue or self-refection about it.
THIS is the most fascinating interview I've seen you do, Mark! I actually stopped following on FB because, although you are a fantastic interviewer, there's only so much addiction and sex work and sadness I, personally, can take. Amanda's interview popped up on my Tiktok, and I saw several clips on the tiktoks you posted and they brought me here! I would love more interviews with these types of interviewees!
Many sex workers genuinely enjoy their job. It's a mistake to think that they're all exploited or miserable. People have every right to use their own bodies to make a living.
@@joshklaver47 Have you used a sex worker?
@@brijmsn You don't use a sex worker. You pay them in exchange for their services, same as any other contractor. No different from seeing a doctor or therapist.
@@joshklaver47 If you are so wealthy that what they are charging is chump change to you, I would argue, yes, you are "using" them. You pay them to let you do whatever you want to them essentially. Sure they may have some limits but for the most part, especially if its a woman, she just wants to survive the encounter so she will be as agreeable as possible. Paying a sex worker, especially a female sex worker is exploitation because you know she is in a compromising situation, she might have kids to feed, she is being used like a rag doll by YOU.
@@brijmsn Wow, I don't know how you fit so much ignorance in one comment. Clearly your only knowledge of sex workers is the propaganda spread by conservatives and religious groups. Most sex workers enjoy their work, and choose to do it instead of other jobs. They aren't being used or exploited, and claiming they are is just condescending. They're adults, doing what they want with their own bodies, and generating income at the same time. There is nothing wrong with that. Save your religious crap for people who care. Sex work is a totally legitimate occupation.
I love my children too much to have them.
Thanks for having Amanda on the show!
I think one of the first steps is for us to accept that we only procreate for selfish reasons. If people understood that, then maybe they could consider if it’s the moral thing to do.
This is incredible. And from what I'm perceiving, the most at peace person interviewed on this channel. Much love to Amanda
This person is in a constant state of misery and self loathing.
You learn something new with every SWU video.
I'd argue that SWB is the best channel youtube has seen in a long time. Mark gets them rolling, and they take it the rest of the way. Open, low pressure, and raw.
Too bad YT doesn’t agree with you and actually completely deleted Amanda’s original antinatalist channel, with hundreds of videos..
Amanda! So glad to see you on here! I'm an efilist living in Chicago as a caregiver too.
Good to meet efilist. I am efilist too, from Ukraine, live in Kiev, but just for studies, my true home is in Pryluky.
I’m also an efilist
I'm also efilist.
We are all efilists^°^
Keep going!
Amanda has certainly enlightened us . Especially when many of Mark's interviews are suffering and see no hope from childhood abuse and trauma 😢😢😢
Absolutely. Super ironic !
People refuse to entertain the thought that their child could end up on skid row just like any of the people Mark interviews. They don't want to have to feel guilt, and that's why this philosophy makes them so angry.
Judging from some of the comments, it seems more that people so intensely disagreed that Mark had to delete their comments, makes the comment section seem a lot more in agreement than it likely really is. Part of the reason it seems that way as well is that I had a few comments left under different comment threads that seem to be gone as well now. So it is a bit of a manufactured/curated agreement.
I’d say the urge to have babies is not cultural, but biological.
The urge to copulate is biological, the desire of forming a family (as its just an idealization/smth one has “rationalize” about) is pure cultural, its not biological. One has been induced to the idea of forming a family and therefore might be determined to accomplish it.
If you just go back to very long ago, the idea of forming a family and seeing the beauty in it didnt exist. People had babies because they felt the need to copulate. The idea of forming a family is completely cultural induced
And that's why we have sex. The biological need to create children is what motivates that behaviour. And to contradict Amanda, we don't have it just for the sake of having it without the primordial urge to create offspring underneath the sexual act itself.
I disagree. The urge for sex is biological; babies come as a byproduct.
@@Sonrisajeje5353this doesn’t explain every other organisms drive to reproduce
Existence hurts everyone
Nonexistence hurts no one
It's a simple fact yet most people refuse to see it
bro u wise lets discuss!
Fossil.. time.. you mean
One of your MOST interesting interviews!! Would like to see more on this topic.
can i ask you a question??
Loved this interview so much!
Haven't seen anyone in many years explaining their philosophy as eloquently as her. Reminds me a lot of when I was in school and read about Schopenhauer; it's good to see that these philosophies are not forgotten and that there's people still able to properly exercise them
Really great interview. She’s well spoken and I’d never heard of anti-natalism before this. Negative Population Growth and Child-Free By Choice; yes, but this is my first exposure to anti-natalism. I also find myself answering the “how do we fix this?” question (whatever the issue is), with “stop having children”.
That's because you're a midwit. Not having children isn't a solution to any problem.
Reasonable perspective. Life is a rip off and miserable for most of humanity.
Go to third world countries and you’ll be shocked at how happy they are with nothing
What an incredibly interesting video. I’ve felt strong feelings when it comes to my disappointment in mankind and how we’re having children in such a time of turmoil. I never thought I would be SO Proud to be a 90’s kid. I’ve lived the before and after. I yearn for the past. It wasn’t all good, but it was MUCH more secure and easy going. She’s so intelligent and informative. I love my 15 year old. I definitely don’t want to be a teenager right now. I see people having kids and I cringe. Life as a good parent is SO Difficult when it comes to rearing a faithful, strong, self-loving, good person. WAY too much extra input. Sorry for my rant. Must have needed to get that out.
You cringe at people having kids when you did the same thing?
I’ve never even heard of this term before. I LOVE watching these videos. I learn something new every time. Thanks Mark!
Same-so interesting
Articulate. She's like vitamins for my brain. So smart and well spoken.
She's like vitamins for your brain. 😊 I like that.
??
Totally!
I honestly can't pay attention to her....
The whole time I'm watching her I just keep imagining her watching Dragonball and saying, "just let em all die Goku! It's not worth it!"
😂 😂 😂
Some 15 year old ones at the bottom of a landfill
I learn so much from watching your interviews, Mark. Thank You.
In my opinion, this world is too screwed up to bring kids into.
You're absolutely right. The real tragedy is how few people realize this, and their children will suffer for it.
I passionately share the same view.
Cant change the future if there is no future. But i get why one would think that way
r/im14andthisisdeep
@@lils6696 Go ahead and list your top ten objectively altruistic reasons for having children.
This was something I had never heard of but yet “forms” of what she is discussing are thoughts I have had?! Fascinating!
Her point-of-view is worth considering, whether one agrees with it or not. The fact that her beliefs stem from wanting to alleviate pain makes sense. She is clearly brilliant…makes you wonder about the point of human existence.
as bizarre as this seems, she's likeable & smart. i hate suffering, it gives me anxiety. I actually see her points to a certain degree. she's interesting & i like her a lot.
Interesting. I'd never heard of antinatalism before today. Oh boy, now my brain has a new concept to ponder. Thanks Amanda and Mark. 😊
Mark, this is about trauma. This is not a "normal" philosophy.
everything Mark encounters is all about trauma where exactly have you been?
@TheScotian82 and usually he pushes it a bit more, digs a little deeper
So interesting. Thank you Amanda and Mark for this respectful and genuine conversation.
Interesting. Thank you Amanda for giving this interview. Sounds like your ideals are coming from a very compassionate place. Had never heard of it.
I found this very interesting. I had never heard of this before. I can’t get on board with it, but I can be open to understanding the belief and some aspects make a bit of sense. Reading all of the comments breaks my heart - people can be so mean and just downright cruel, making a good argument to her point. Thank you Mark for these interviews and exposing us to other people’s humanities. ❤
Omg shut up. Lol
It’s simply making necessity a virtue, no man worth his weight would reproduce with this homely woman, therefore she doesn’t want anyone else to have children.
@@joshbaca2041 Looks like you are incapable of critical thinking but are good at looking at things superficially.
@@joshbaca2041She does not want people to have children because it will certainly harm them, even pleasure is just diminishment of suffering, for example, you will feel pleasure from going to bed if you are tired( tiredness is painful), but after sleeping plenty of time, you will not feel pleasure from laying on the bed.
Agree with you
As long as no one gets hurt people can believe whatever they want
She wasn't coming from a place of disrespect she was explaining her beliefs and not putting down anymore who disagrees
If she was a gorgeous young woman I wonder what the comments would be 🤔
Beautiful interview. Been an antinatalist for a long time. I love this lady.
So you're just as much of a delusional whacko as she is😂
May your family name die out asap
I never knew this is what I believed in or that there was a word for it. Yes I 100% agree. Also I love this woman! Exceptionally bright.
Ive felt this way for a long time but never had a name to put to it.... very interesting and validating to hear it described so eloquently. Thank you for this.
I have felt the same as her for a long time. I didn’t know until recently that there was a name for the philosophy.
What a fantastic interview. From one point of view, Mark’s channel is about inviting us all to see society and its people who suffer with fresh eyes. With an understanding of what put them there, and to feel compassion for them, rather than judgement. Although a different subject, this woman has introduced a completely different lens on all of this. So thought provoking and insightful.
Amanda just blew my mind. This was fantastic.
Wow, I've been listening to this thinking, damn Mark you did it again, another great interview showing someone I never knew existed - so why are there dislikes? I want more of this type of work. The obscure. The different. I want to see people who can tell me things I've never even thought of, especially people I wholeheartedly disagree with. Good on you. And thank you Amanda for sharing.
Dearly, I believe Mark is not agree with her crazy hellish point of views over humanity.
I've had these thoughts since childhood, before there was even any concept for me of environmental damage etc. It's funny some people comment on the idea being rammed down their throats, but for those of us who naturally believe this way we are constantly bombarded with the opposite view as if it is fact. As much as people find this viewpoint difficult to get on board with I feel exactly the same about pro natalism. I have this with a lot of societal beliefs and put it down to my INTJ personality type. Anyone else who thinks like this an INTJ too?
I am really pleased that most of the comments are people thinking about this concept and making some sense of it rather than thinking we're loonies or depressed for thinking this way lol. For me I wouldn't even label myself antinatalist as such, and its not something I'm active on in any way its just a belief I have and essentially live by this myself and have the same thoughts as this lady with animals too and am also vegan. I suppose one thing naturally leads to another. I sometimes feel like as a child I took the whole concept of not harming others as literally as I possibly could. When they would tell us bible stories at school, a story that was supposed to be moral un some way, I would sit there thinking this doesn’t make sense... how can you say do not harm, but cause harm... how can I be taught I must stroke a rabbit nicely and calmly but that evening eat an animal that has been killed... so for me the belief that bringing a human into the world would do more harm than good meant I would be doing more harm than good. To me this sounds completely logical but I suppose I soon learnt that the majority of others aren't the same and i never quite understand why especially for those who are good people and genuinely try to do good.
I find it interesting and try to psycho analyse myself a lot and try to understand others too, and I find it really hard to see the logic behind having children (although i don't let it bother me); I wish there was someone like this speaker who speaks so clearly and logically, but on the pro natalist side to speak so clearly to help me understand the other viewpoint. Saying things 'people have a right to have a child if they want' is a statement but doesnt explain to me why it is OK or even good for the world. I can think of some positives of course, most of them not selfless.
I'm not trying to change anyones mind as it's genuinely not on my list of priorities, just wanted to share my perspective as I can see some people are interested in this viewpoint and maybe there is someone who might be able to eloquently explain the other side of things too.
INTP here: completely agree w almost everything you said.
i was a child that was an extremely critical thinker and i am the same in adulthood and sounds like you were/are the same. the relentless hypocrisies in life always confused me and as a 28 year old i am obsessed w seeking an absolute truth; part of becoming an adult is understanding that there is rarely such a thing.
I also considered and still consider suicide to be an ethical act. Might be controversial but it just makes sense.
@@cekw3284Im a INTP too and will get rid of my uterus.
You believe it’s wrong to do anything that potentially puts harm on other living beings, perfectly fine to have that line of thought. The opposite side’s argument is just that, opposite of yours. Life begets suffering but also happiness, and that experience is worth living in its totality. To love, lose, and take is the human experience. You don’t think it’s worth it while the majority of us do think it’s worth the suffering, to live and eventually die. Nothing said will convince you against your position because it is a logical way of thinking, but the other side is also logical. Life has a drive to reproduce and it always will, so make best of your time here and try and make the people around you better off, make the suffering they encounter easier to bear and setup your kids the best you can with what you have.
Just because you disagree with the majority when it comes to this topic, doesn't mean that we are wrong or that you are right. Suffering is subjective and not guaranteed to all.
*It’s unethical to breed more kids when there’s plenty of shelters full to the bream*
Bream is a type of fish...
@@TJSchongar yes bream is fish but I was being silly meaning full to the brim
This was a very educational interview. Thankyou for sharing, Amanda!
Thank you for explaining what I believed in since I was a child.
bro hi how are you
Mee too
Ditto!!
I’ve believed in antinatalism since childhood, too. For all these reasons and more. I just never knew there was a word for it! So glad to see how antinatalism has taken off over the last few years.
If your worldview hasn't changed since being a child, you have serious issues.
I am so glad that Amanda pointed out the cultural and social essentialism in the proposed counter-argument(s) the interviewer presents with regard to women especially.
Thank you for featuring what is likely the most important cause on earth - and the possible solution for ending all pain and suffering for all life, especially the millions of children that are being abused and trafficked.
10.000 Tsar Bomba's with cobalt-60 and everything will be ok.
sorry miscalculated, 100.000
I'd always been taught that cutting people off when they're speaking is rude. Maybe let the people you're interviewing finish their answers before flinging 3 additional questions at them mid sentence.
Very interesting interview. I thoroughly enjoyed this. 🤔 “It is wrong to create need for no need.”
whats ur opinion about the current state of the world?
Brutal!
We destroy worst than termites
It is quite pleasant to here a view described and explained articulatly despite subscribing to the view or not.
Great interview
Legend commenting on another legend. Like your channel.
@@polydex108 thank you 😊
idk if u know this guy or not, but theres this dude on utube who calls himself Ned "the natalist", i wonder what he would say about this lady
Honestly, I resonate so much in my thinking with Amanda. We're probably similar age, but I grew up in a completely different part of the world, Kazakhstan; although I feel in similar cultural contexts. I'm going to explore antinatalism as I'm drawn to the ideas of ending suffering and minimising harm to the earth.
I was born and spent most of my life in western Sweden, and I'm also an antinatalist.
@@francisdec1615 same here
You should look into veganism too.
Bloody interesting! This about sums up what I've been pondering for the second decade now.
Tonight I have realised I am an antinatalist. I say all of these points you makes as reasons why I never wanted children. I cringe when I hear of people getting pregnant and think about the potential for suffering of the child, and how it hasn't asked to be born. Also, the selfishness of the parents. Heading over to the podcast now. Thank you Amanda.
She is brilliant. I was surprised to see Mark too stuck in his own ideas/emotional reactions to realize the depth of what she was saying. She was kind and articulate about all of her ideas, clearly considered her beliefs. It's kind of a shame to have missed so many of her really well thought out points.
She believes in the existence of nothing that's a bit extreme. I understand not wanting suffering but no humans or animals on any planet is cruel too
@@karinababy6557 Actually it is the opposite of cruel. Cruel is torturing sentient beings. In a way, life itself is cruel.
@@ChrisDragotta life can be cruel yes but it can also be lovely but that’s how life is like nature both kind and cruel. Having never existed at all would be a travesty even though it has been a hard life many of us have beautiful
Lives
I think most parents refuse to entertain this idea.
Shes not brilliant. She's mental
I love, love, LOVE my kids. They are amazing humans and are going to go on to do big things with their lives. But if I had a do-over I would live my life childfree. I wasn't prepared at the sheer amount of energy they would, and always will, demand. And I feel guilt at bringing life into a world such as ours because they will suffer inevitable pain in addition to the good, and they had no choice in it.
How can you have kids that you love so much and say "if I could go back, I'd rather they never existed". That is nuts.
allllot of people think this but wont admit it.
@@vladenacovski2292why? Why is it nuts to regret imposing unnecessary risk, suffering and death?
Interesting. Did you start feeling this way after you had the third child? Otherwise why have three in the first place?
The irony here, is people given the chance at life, arguing that others shouldn't have that same chance, "just in case". Rather than "ethical", I'd call it arrogance
More interviews like this please. Less using of people for sensational videos...we've seen enough. What is the point of more and more and more of the same? Give us more chances to meet people that can broaden our minds in new directions. Amanda is fascinating.
Exactly. Enough of all those fentanyl addicts
I do see your point and where it's coming from, however, do keep in mind that the point of seeing the "sensational videos" is not to be sensational at all, in my opinion Mark has decided to show them because the average person does not see or understand those people. They are never heard and this channel is a platform to let them speak and share their story, and in my humble opinion every human story matters. But of course this is only my opinion and I am not here to change your mind, only give you a different perspective
Amanda is great!
This was great. I would love to see you interviewing more antinatalists!
As soon as I heard her define it, I agree already
Thanks for covering this topic! As a childfree woman, I can say I'm not exactly full blown antinatalist, but I think we need to really evaluate the pros and cons of creating new human before we do it. I think we need to slow population growth to a more sustainable level and pick the best possible partners to breed with. It shouldn't be a careless act in any sense and far fewer people should be doing it than we see today. So I'm glad the thought is getting out there, even if this is a much more extreme example. ❤
Yes as she goes on Im starting to see I too have some of the same ideas. I never wanted to bring anything here, nor do I even want them.
Damn shes bright
She is not wrong ❤
There’s a lot in her philosophy that I agree with and I really appreciated her honesty and sincerity. Thanks for the great interview as usual.
Always an Antinatalist!
❤️🫶🏽
I don't believe in harming innocent sentient beings forcing them to be wage slaves for their entire lives slaving away for little scraps of worthless paper.
Online banking is easier 👍
I had never heard of this before. Whether you agree or not- she explained her ideas eloquently and it was a fascinating interview!
r/antinatalism
She has severe Blue Balls....
@@Taeodoestechdamn right! ❤️✌️
Absolutely fascinating, remarkable - she's incredible!
Exactly. I went into this thinking this will sound crazy, and I won't last 5 mins. 2 mins into it, she had me mezmerized. I had not heard of this either, but hot damn, she nailed it. I think there really is no need for doing what nature will naturally do. Humans are soooooooo temporary. We aren't going to escape the same fate of every other species in the universe. We will inevitably go extinct. It's impossble math literally for us to escape those odds. No need to speed it up, but I sure can't argue with her.
For what it's worth: anybody out there who is unemployed but busy being a caregiver should check with their State Health and Human Services Dept to find out if they can become certified as a PCA (Personal Care Assistant) and then officially get PAID for every hour of caregiving work. Don't do it for free, unless you're independently wealthy!
There are people who need care who cannot afford it
@@thesimulation9651she means see if there is state funding to get paid. Sometimes there is.
she may be getting paid, but does not consider it employment, considering her high level of education.
No she lives with her mom calls her self a caregiver and is doom and gloom bring everybody into her level of deep depression.. somebody this intelligent should not be unemployed-activism for doom and gloom is A waste of her talents she could be a multi millionnaire with that brain and actually do something beneficial to the planet and truly help others besides shaming people from having kids 🤷🏻♀️
@@thesimulation9651 Whoops - I guess I failed to mention that the payments can come from a variety of sources, not the person being cared for. PCAs can be paid via a number of insurance plans. In my home State of MN: "Depending on your specific situation, you may receive direct payments from Medicaid or from the state as a family caregiver. As a PCA, you may receive payment directly from the state after submitting some forms, or you receive payment from a qualified home care agency. In the state of Minnesota, PCAs receive payment from a home care agency after their relative or friend has been approved for PCA services." www.dli.mn.gov/pca-cfss
Honestly I think her point of view stems from a lot of compassion, she's so against suffering that she wants to prevent it completely outright by not even allowing an environment for it to exist.
Well, you're not very nice @@ChiefHandler444
I think it comes more from self loathing. People like this wish they were never born themselves, and perhaps out of compassion, they wish to see the curse of being lifted from future generations.
Protecting us from [perceived] suffering, is what weakens the individual.
Life is a trial but worth living.
Probably just a ton of neuroticism. I feel bad for her tbh.
Nobody mentioned Arthur Schopenhauer and his idea that the most moral thing a person can do is not have children.
whats ur opinion on Schopenhauer?
Schopenhauer was a great thinker. I'm grateful to him.
I was adopted into a horrible family and wished I was never born many times.
I did too as a child, but as an adult you have a lot of agency over your life and you don't have to put up with any of these things.
whats that? @@brokenfractal
It seems to be a very common feeling among adoptees.
@birdybirdy846 The problem is that as long as you own a home and have an income, they will literally let anyone have children with absolutely no regard for the education level or mental health status of the parents. My mother was a literal psyco with serious issues and she was a foster parent for like 30 years. She would only foster young children who couldn't talk yet or defend themselves against her. A baby even died in her care and all she got was a 6 month suspension.
@castirondudethe thing is. The end product you become as an adult is mostly just genetics + upbringing in the first 7 yeara of your life. Most of the time people just run on the autopilot that was installed in them via upbringing and gentics. Most people will basically mever change and if you look closely at the people you know since childhood, youll see more and more characteristics in thel that havent changed at all since childhood. Free will is very limited.
“What is it about the winners that justifies the creation of all of this loss?” Such a valid question that I didn’t realize I was pondering all along. I am a therapist and social worker whose primary job is hearing about some of the worst experiences of people’s lives. I’ve had so many existential questions, but I try not to get lost in finding solutions for all of humanity bc I simply can’t focus on that. While I can only help one person or family at a time, the trajectory for that person could continue long after I’m gone... This was SUCH an interesting video bc it bravely attempts to solve a question many of us have. I love to hear other perspectives bc I don’t have a desire to limit myself to one way of thinking. Thanks for giving me more to think about! ❤ Let’s not forget the point of the channel isn’t to convince anyone of anything, just to see how vastly different other people on this earth can be. We can all agree to disagree respectfully while still appreciating a different perspective.
Fellow therapist here- & same
@@zigzagwilly You guys get to see all the suffering hidden from the view of most.
Simplistic minds will answer this question with religion. Too fearful to allow for other possibilities, and never to allow for the answer that "It's not worth it."
Why would the existence of loss justify the extinction of victory?
Or why do inherent realities of the universe need justification?
As a society we aren't caring for the human life that already exists. I do wonder why we are compelled to create more.
exactly
Speak for yourself, buddy.
so humanity doesn't go extinct
Humans haven’t evolved past there primitive reproductive instincts.
Nobody is "compelled" to do anything. It is a personal choice. If you want kids great, of you don't great. Live and let live. It's really that simple.
This is the angriest I’ve ever seen SWU comments get; even actual, literal violent felons have gotten more sympathy. Her words must’ve really touched a nerve.
Absolutely agree!
@@dannyg52 There is no evidence for any devil, and faith is the excuse people give to believe in something when they have no evidence.
Any kind of questioning of a mindless societal narrative will do that to people. We live in a world where the phrase "when are you going to have children" is way more often said than "are you going to have children" and even that is said way more often than "do you think it's a good idea to have children".
This is the response that you get when someone actually puts a mirror up to society and request that it do some thinking about the consequences of the story they are just used to hearing.
Notice.....most of the angry comments don't actually provide any kind of counterpoint to anything that she said. It's just your typical standard, copy-paste, ad hominem rhetoric. Kind of like children when they hear Santa Claus isn't real. No real substantive counterpoint from the child, just simply anger.
I don't know of the felons videos that you are referring to, but I'm guessing that those videos don't ask John & Jane Q public to actually think about their behavior and actually CHANGE (which is something that the average person hates).
No she's been on Reddit for too long and her life sucks that's why she says these things
i think for most people, it just comes down to disagreeing with the premises that either a) life is, on average, a negative experience or b) that it's unethical to impose the risk of a negative experience without consent.
for a), i think most people enjoy life and don't regret being born. even if this isn't the case, the potential for it to become true is always present. antinatalists give more weight to the possibility of negative events, whereas natlaists will give more weight to the possibility of positive ones. (if you don't give weight to either, then you should by default accept the current trajectory, be it positive or negative)
for b), i'm going to use an analogy. i'm horrible at these so it might not make sense, but i'll try anyway. if i handed you a package and said it either contained ten dollars or ten cockroaches, would you gift it to someone else or throw it in the trash? there's no right answer. if you dispose of it, you're an antinatalist and that's okay, but most people would want to take the risk.
She is captivating to listen to. She makes great points. I don't know where I sit with this idea but damn... Please bring her back to talk more.
I love that she keeps saying, "I believe" and "this idea." She is not shoving it down your throat. She's stating what she believes very to the point and clear.
She clearly stated that she is an activist. So, she most definitely is shoving it down our throat. I have no issues with someone believing a different philosophy, but let the rest of us live our lives our way.
@@Parrotgirl-tattoo Who is preventing you? Gosh you're exaggerating
Yeah, but look what she is saying, not how she's saying it.
@@MusicJunkie37we
exactly!
I have never heard Mark interrupt a guest this much
I was thinking the same….
it took away from the beauty of this channel. The name of the channel is akin to vulnerability and I don’t think he gave this guest the same opportunity to be vulnerable, without question, as he does other guest.
He does it ALL the time
As a child I recall being so angry for being born without my permission.
Anger often comes from a feeling of injustice.
Do you still feel angry today?
😂
I’m still pissed my bio Mom was too much of a coward to get an abortion. The world does not need more children , there are too many to protect adequately.
@@lucioh1575 Actually…no. Anger simply does not emerge from injustice. Trying to sound deep and intelligent is really cringe. It’s perfectly normal feel angry at the thought of being born.
“To bear children into this world is like carrying wood to a burning house.”
― Peter Wessel Zapffe
Bullshit.
Yes.
He could have never had that thought if he weren't born nor could have you left this comment of his quote.
Do you not see the irony in this entire belief?
@@SixSonn What's your point? Are you saying suffering is justified because we get to quote things?
The other side of suffering is love & joy. Through the hells i have survived, i have said thank you to the universe for all of them because they have given me a stronger ability to love. They have put me in a place to look into the eyes of others & share that love. Love makes suffering worthwhile.
Antinatalism is a compassionate philosophy that wants to see no one come into existence to suffer harm. They never existed to want the life they would have had were they existed, and are not deprived by never coming into existence.
This whole idea is frightening. I think if she didn't live with this philosophy she might take her own life. We come here to live and have the human experience,,however that may be.
But why live if living brings suffering?
Not my philosophy, but I think what is an antinatalism thought.
@@bernicehopkins7747 because we chose to be here and have thus experience!!!
@@bernicehopkins7747Because it also brings love, joy, happiness...
“Not having children derives not from dislike, but from love too great to bring them into this world, too limited, too vain, too cruel.”
― Michel Onfray
Wassup
Exactly
hi @@chrissyl3513
? @@ANTINATALIST_lewis
dear
how is the "gift"?
@@chrissyl3513
"Why are we laying eggs in a broken nest?" -- wow. I'm impressed with her knowledge of so many philosophies. Great interview.
no thats just negativity. you can make a piece of turd sound poetic if you tried hard enough. theres no broken nest, just her shitty outlook on the world. imagine thinking evolution is wrong and amanda is right
@@cnambdwas thinking the exact same thing.
This is baffling to me when all I hear from her is grossly misinformed and misguided uneducated views from an incel basement nerd who knows nothing of human connection because she spent decades on the internet instead of seeing the beauty of living life.
@@cnambd If you're a man, you don't have eggs
@@cnambdMany people think their nest isn't broken while it is. Most parents are unfit for the the job.
Fellow antinatalists, where you at?
Team AN represent!
@@sisypheanexistence8955how many holes does a straw have??
Blue flashing lights
@@terrytownsend5583 can a hole have a hole inside it?
🙌
HOLY SHIT IT'S THE DRAGON BALL LADY!!!! I knew I recognized her. She was always very well-spoken and articulate, but I didn't realize just how _smart_ she was! ❤
hi bro hru!
Do you happen to know the name she went by when she was making those videos? I searched but couldn't find her videos...
@@TheVisualNovel thank you!!!!
You can't help but admire the amount of knowledge and research she accredits this philosophy with.
I agree. It is a strange character trait. There are definitely brilliant people out there that cant accredit anything.
No
If it's true that there is a fine line between genius and insanity, she's definitely leaning more into one than the other.
she has no life so why not spend all of your time just reading and talking and not being productive and curing anyone who is. the most productive thing a person can do is to make life. thank GOD the great inventors and scientists of the past 2,000 years didn't believe this.
Wtf are you people talking about she has no clue what she's talking about and what research. Her opinion lol that obviously has huge blind spots to say the least.
My current read: "Better Never To Have Been" by David Benatar, an antinatalist book. Highly recommended!
I can’t wait to read it!
Wonderful idea! I really like it. What’s the purpose of life? Well, it has no purpose or meaning, everyone decides what it is for themselves. Life comes with suffering. What’s the purpose of suffering? There is no purpose, so let’s minimize it and end it.
could u recommend any movies with these sorts of themes?
I’ve never heard of this before. Fascinating guest and I loved her non-combative presence.
Is it really non-combative or it a steel fist in a kid glove. At the end of the day she wants everything of value to be done away with and that includes you, your family, your friends, even your pet. What is more she likes her own life enough, not to end it, but she believes that all other life has only negative value, and that your assessment of your own life on your own value is worthless, because no matter how much you think you want to live, her opinion, is it on balance you’d be better off dead. And your opinion and your experience is meaningless to her.
From a psychological point of view (and I am a psychotherapist). She is full of self hatred and because she is mainly unaware of it she is projecting it out onto everybody else, and her conclusion is that all life must end.
She is one messed-up gal!
@@quentinkumba6746You’re completely wrong. She’s not some psychopath that wants other people to die. She said this explicitly. Her goal is to convince people to not procreate. You need to develop some better critical thinking skills and listen non-judge mentally instead of assuming the worst of people.
@@Montezuma0 - hey chicken, I think you’ve got me mixed up with someone else, I never said that she was a psychopath and I don’t think she is one, I think she’s a misanthrope, that is she hates people, starting with herself, that is not psychopathy and I’m not saying it is, psychopaths do not hate themselves on the contrary they are very often highly narcissistic.
And also it’s a little naive to think because someone says they are not full of hatred but wants to end all life that they are telling the truth.
@@quentinkumba6746 Ok fine, but your initial comment saying that she thinks life only has negative value is incorrect. Antinatalism doesn’t reject the idea that life can also be great, they just say that overall the suffering outweighs the good. A key component of antinatalism is also that not procreating is better than procreating because not experiencing suffering is better even if it means not experiencing joy as well. It’s a pretty solid argument. Maybe she does hate life, but that doesn’t make antinatalism less attractive.
@@Montezuma0 - you are wrong about the basis of antinatalism, you are close but you have not quite understood it. You need to look up Benetar’s asymmetry argument. It is not about the balance of good and bad in life at all, it’s about this:
1. the presence of pain is bad;
2. the presence of pleasure is good;
however
3. the absence of pain is good, even if that good is not enjoyed by anyone;
4. the absence of pleasure is not bad unless there is somebody for whom this absence is a deprivation
The first of many problems with this argument is it’s logical conclusion that a life that would be 99.9999999% pleasure and 0.0000001% pain is a life that is still not worth living. That seems like a very extreme position and hardly credible.
It also boils the whole of the future of life in the universe down to an asymmetrical cost-benefit analysis of pleasure and pain, where all that matters is pain, but for most people life is about a lot lot more than that. It seems extremely arrogant for anyone to assume that from their little planet in the middle of nowhere after being a toy reviewer on TH-cam they have the wisdom to know to stop the next few billion years of evolution and know that they have done the right thing.
Let them have spaceships and they will travel the universe destroying any planets that look like they may ever develop life. What a legacy to be proud of!
For those who see life in such a reductionist and nihilistic way though, I can imagine that it can become pretty miserable. However it is certainly the case that antinatalists, despite their misery, all want to ensure that they are not the ones who miss out on life. That’s just for the unmade, you know, the ones with no voice, who without consent the antinatalists claim to speak for.
It is purely and simply a projection of unconscious self-hatred onto the rest of life, it’s moderated just enough not to have their own lives destroyed by it (they fall short of killing the living), but it is the same self-hatred that drives school shooters and incels to run amock, just with less commitment and courage.
Finally it’s atheism and materialism gone mad. It’s throwing religion out but throwing the baby out with the bath water. It’s what Nietzsche was warning us about when he spoke about the death of God it’s what Carl Jung was warning is about when he spoke of man’s need to embrace the feminine and have a myth to live by. This is the opposite - despising the feminine, despising the body, leading a sterile and meaningless life. Elevating simplistic all or nothing thinking and giving it the power of a God, to destroy the world. All these people care about is pleasure and pain. What about love? What about connection with others? What about growth and transcendence or at least transformation. All of these things, that elevate us and make life worth living are worthless garbage to these people.
There is something deeply sick and perverse about this philosophy. I am an atheist from a long line of atheists and I don’t like to use the word evil, but this comes close to deserving that name. They are one small, obvious logical step away from wanting to kill everybody and end all life on the planet. Their philosophy inevitably leads to that conclusion, to save the unborn those that would give birth must die. Give them AI and bio-weapons and how long do you think we would last? To properly understand their philosophies danger imagine what might happen if they had the levers of power. It would not be pretty. It would be a holocaust like the world has never imagined.
These people are not your friends, they are in fact like the Cenobytes, enticing you with a pretty puzzle whilst they lead you through the doors of hell.
Every bad thing that'll happen to your kids including their death is your fault.
for some reason many parents don't realize such a simple problem with procreation they wanna act as if their kids are not their decision
Parents try to protect their children from the world. How ironic that statement is!
Mark - this is a great interview. I’d love for a follow up - I have so many questions. I find this concept fascinating. Thank you both!
FOLLOW-UP with a SEQUEL, please---more AMANDA!! She is a modern-day warrior and HER mind is definitely NOT for rent to any God or Government!!!
It's liberating to even think about Antinatalism. I had never heard of it before today, but the ideas that Amanda talked about made me feel like I DO have some element of control in this seemingly out-of-control suffering-fest; I can choose to make kind compassionate choices regarding those of us who are already here, and at the same time NOT to bring more life (suffering) into the mix. Awesome - Thanks Amanda
wow i feel like u enlightened me!
lets discuss!!
Fascinating interview! It is amazing to learn how people think, what drives them and how they look at things without judgement. The intellect is a powerful thing ~
its also very dangerous which is why "with great power..."
We all judge. There's nothing wrong with judging. It's an important thing to judge, in fact. Otherwise how would you decerm anything? When you make a decision, you're judging. It's normal and imperative to judge.
@@TheScotian82 100pct
@@antmanv05 agree, but in my view there is a difference between judging for yourself vs passing judgement on somebody else without being curious what led them to have certain view points. I personally may or may not agree with it but I don't judge them how they think.
@montecarlo
I'm all about freedom of speech.
Being who you are no matter what.
For instance I've been trying to argue with all the people who feel the need to point out that Rebecca is a man. So many people in here have a problem with Rebecca being referred to as she, her and so on.
I've tried to ask them why it even bother them so much but I don't really get an answer.
In mu head it's as easy as if someone calls them self Rebecca and wants to be called she, I do that.
It's just as easy as calling them he.
It doesn't matter if the person has beard and looks like the most masculine person. If they see themselves as a she, fine by me.
However.
There are certain things and views I have a hard time to accept.
One example is Sweden at the moment. There's a lot of burning of The Book of Allah. (I hope that's the correct name in English. If not, I very much apologise to everyone.)
As I said I'm all about freedom of speech.
I just don't see what burning The Book of Allah, the Bible, or a country's flag has to do with freedom of speech.
When you take something that's so important to so many people and you violate that thing, that's just not okay.
I judge them because I feel like they do this ha like that for one reason alone and that's to provoke. And I don't like that.
I don't sympathise with that kind of provocation.
I used to think it was fine to use the t-shirt Sid Vicious used to wear with the huge swastika symbol on it.
In all reality the swastika is just an old agent symbol for the sun or something. So I didn't see the problem.
Hitler took some old symbol and made his own meaning to it.
We all know it ment something else before. So what's the big deal?
The big deal as I understood after a while is that thousands and thousands of people lived through the hell of World War II where countries were occupied by the Germans.
Those countries flags were taken down during the war. They were replace by Hitler's swastika flags. All important building had those flag on them and the symbol was used to a lot of things. So obviously it's horrible for the people who lived during 5 years of war and saw that symbol everywhere.
Can yiu imagine going through such an horrible thing as war and then meeting a person wearing a t-shirt with the same symbol which is representative of the horrors Hitler stood for?
So in my opinion yiu just can't go through life totally without judgement of people.
It's not a good thing if you do that in my opinion.
Some people need to be judged because their thoughts are so dangerous is can actually hurt lots of people.
Like people who become radicalised.
It's dangerous.
They need to new judged.
But then again we need to show understanding because we need to try and not push them even further away then they are.
This is such an incredibly difficult and enormous topic it's almost impossible to know what's right.