What drove me nuts is how James thought it was more important to get to more questions than to adequately address the one they were on. Just let me them talk, people wanna see it all go down.
Ephesian 6:5-8 Fancypants Paul states “Slaves be obedient to your human masters with with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ” I literally have only had to google this.
@@mauddib696 Yes, the apostle paul is attempting to slowly get rid of a slave filled culture and explaining to the people of the day how to be a christian with the same culture that existed at the time. This isn’t justification for slavery, this is a leader attempting to help ease a broken people into a better social structure. Understanding historical context is good
@@heatrn11god never seems to condemn slavery tho, neither our lord and saviour. Why couldn’t god specify. Why does rely on human interpretation for an all knowing being he doesnt seem to know a lot. Like how people were gonna take those lines not just in the new but also the old. If ur excuse is oh it was a part of the time. I expect better from god.
The text says to *buy* your slaves from the heathen around you, when it comes to biblical morality there is always a loophole. If you buy your slave you didn't kidnap them someone else did. It's impossible to get away from the fact that the bible condones slavery.
@@badgerbush3556 word for word and that’s it what it says. Also, the first slaves recorded in history are white people being slaves in Egypt and some ran away and became the nation of India when they mixed with colored people. Also slave is not only about being a slave to another person as it’s a term definition about your capture to that of what your a slave to and most slaves are in the heart to immortal and hatred and confusion and bitterness.
My favorite part of this debate is how Stuart and Cliffe never once say the versus Matt & Josh use are wrong. Not once. Instead they gave other verses that contradicted Matt & Josh versus. Which they are so happy to do yet the idiots don't realize they just prove the bible is full of contradictions hahahahaha
God is against slavery in the Old Testament Exodus 21:16 "16And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death." God is against slavery in the New Testament 1 Timothy 1:9-10 "9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for MENSTEALERS, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" You will note that "stealeth a man" from the Old Testament is cross referenced with "menstealers" in the New Testament. The word menstealers is from the Greek word ANDRAPODISTES, which means a slave dealer or slave driver, so it is clear that throughout the Bible, God doesn't like people enslaving each other! And just to make it clear, God doesn't just care about the Israelites in the Old Testament, he cared about the foreign nations aswell. Leviticus 19:33-34 "33And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
The idea that the Bible condones slavery, only works with the new translations of the Bible which came out in the last 40 years, the King James version which was released in 1611, about 400 years ago, cannot be used to put forth the idea that the Bible condones slavery. If the Bible condones something, it should be able to be justified using the most authentic version.
Really dude? You don't listen do you? slavery is wrong...god should know this...but this silly imaginary thing you created on your head does nothing...your religion JUSTIFIED SLAVERY!! So stop the righteous indignation it's disgusting
Nonbelievers [Antitheists] are the worst of creatures. Less than pigs. Less than dogs. - Quran [abridged] Love thy neighbor as you love thyself. Love your enemies. -Holy Bible [abridged]
@Silenced one you brought up ceremonial law, that only applies to those who are Jewish, Christians don’t follow ceremonial law because of Jesus Christ.
The crusades were an amazing hugging contest. Also those canninites just had an amazing time with the israelites when they barged in with the biggest game of fencing ever, they just all forgot their protective equipment so they just went all out.
I'm not in an inerrantist, but do you want to know what God thinks of slavery read when Jesus(God) discussed sin as a type of slavery, and the context is obvious that it's a bad thing.
They were talking about literal slavery which the bible condones and gives instruction on how to handle the matter. Just google it if You don't want to read Your bible. But if You do read the bible, You'll see how it's sick and twisted in many ways... besides condoning slavery that is.
@@AnarchoPunkChad lol... it's in the bible and the information is on the internet as well. Look up exodus 21. Also look this up if You're going to say "but that's in the old testament" look this up on the web: "No, Jesus Did Not Soften the Old Testament-In Fact He Did the Opposite, and Here’s What That Means"
@@AnarchoPunkChad is exodus 21 in the bible? If so then slavery is in the bible... and it's 100% condoned. You're just in denial or too lazy to go read the bible for yourself or to even google something.
Im glad this debate happened. What it shows is that when facing inarticulate college kids cliffe comes off an intellectual powerhouse but when facing someone who knows his stuff....cliffe has to divert, distract and fabricate to keep his argument together. Cliffe doesn't understand because he wants god to be real doesn't me he is. To show it he has to use actual evidence. Appeals to intuition/emotion is not evidence, its just wishful thinking.
@Justin Gary yeah I agree, I think if it weren’t for him I would probably give the edge to Cliff, because I think he did pretty well with opening statement but when it came to cross-examination, him and his son really floundered, I really couldn’t adequately answer any of Josh’s questions, and I actually agree with them more. I think Josh was definitely undoubtedly the best performance from this debate, even though I disagree with his points many of them.
Cliff made solid point with the colege kid and these 2 persons the difference îs that the colege Kids actually listen Cliff also provider historical proof not just emotions stop lying
@@lugialover09 I just had the thought that IF god revealed himself it would utterly prove his existence. so every "ashiest" would have 0 ground to stand on and pretty much be forced to worship him. I kind of thought god set it up perfectly so you could trust one way "I.E God created life and everything else. or "We are just an accident and everything in life is what you make it." Eliminating the 2nd option would only leave the first.
@@adrian7983 Why should God remain hidden? Why shouldn't we receive definite proof of its existence? Nobody would be forced to worship God (unless God actively chose to force us in which case that says more about God than us) if we knew for certain about its existence. Also, no, you're creating a false dichotomy where if life coming about by accident (which isn't disproven by the way) isn't true, then we have to accept that God created life. That entirely ignores every other religion that worships a different life-creating deity or the possibility of aliens introducing life on Earth and so on. All we can say is that we don't definitively know how the universe and life came about, and that's okay. It's okay to admit that we don't know something.
Deuteronomy 4:29 King James Version 29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Leviticus 25:44-46 "‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." Disgusting.
@@chrisworthman3191 Yes I suppose there’s even the 3 headed frog God. Plenty of false Gods out there brother. Except for Judaism and Christianity all religions are man made fabrications to soothe the people and make life relatively safe for the rich. When Napoleon said that the purpose of religion is to stop the poor from murdering the rich, he wasn’t kidding. But that doesn’t mean God does not exist. He exists alright.
I understand how Matt and Josh and many others can see what appears to be slavery condoned in the Bible. But Slavery along with all other forms of degradation and sinfulness did not exist in the beginning when God made man, and it wasn't God's original intent for mankind. Out of love, He let mankind choose their own way. They chose to go after their own desires and that's what let sin and selfishness to come into the world and trickle down to everyone. Slavery, along with all other sins resulted from man's first decision to go after his own desires. The beautiful thing is, God in His mercy and patience, isn't repulsed by mankind because He ultimately knows the better thing he created them for. Rather in spite of sin, he works his goodness in the midst of it. He already had a plan when man sinned to bring Jesus in to the world to deal with sin and bring his mankind back into fellowship with Him again. I believe slavery isn't directly dealt with in the Bible because for one, I believe God wanted people to understand the concept of what slavery really is. Hence, the Israelites themselves ended up as slaves at one point. He wanted them to get really familiar with slavery and bondage. Later in the new testament Jesus points out to the religious leaders that they are slaves and in bondage to sin. The Jewish people were very familiar with slaves. They owned slaves but couldn't realized that THEY themselves were slaves. Jesus came to free people from the bondage of sin. Paul under the new covenant literally says if you are born again and become a follower of Jesus, and are a slave, try if you can to gain freedom. But know that you are free in Christ. I believe the Bible does not have to explicitly say that slavery is wrong to know that God's heart is not for people to be in bondage. Every believer in Jesus no matter where in the earth knows that truth. When you yourself are overwhelmed by the love and mercy of God, you desire to be every one else's servant, not for them to serve you. Jesus gave the greatest example for all of us with His own life, and he said he only did what he heard and saw from his Father, and that was to come in the form of a slave or servant, to serve mankind and give His life and buy US back from the bondage and slavery of sin and selfishness that separated us from him in the first place.
What you believe is the indoctrinated bullshit you have been brainwashed to believe and add you own perspective to it. How about evidencing you beliefs to be actuality.
Hi The slavery which is talked about here in this debate is based on finance's and conquered peoples, that the Romans used to take control over land and is particularly found in passages in the book of Leviticus, Romans to name two. It is nothing to do with slavery that was prevalent in America that was racist towards black people. So the atheists have to look at this a bit more closely culturally because both forms of slavery are very different from each other. Hope you are both good Cliffe and Stuart. God bless.
Bullshit. They could buy their slaves from their neighbors to include child slaves. They also could breed them by giving their male slaves a wife to make slave babies. Stop lying or read the bible. Good luck.
However slavery in America was supported by the accounts of the Bible because ignorant people believing the book of myths and fairy tales claimed it was their god given right to own slaves thanks to the Bible. They were bought and sold just like people in the Bible and beaten as well. Still a lot more reading that everyone needs to do. The Bible is a horrible book and certainly like other books that claim to be the words of god is not so. Just good story tellers and some philosophers compiling and appropriating stories from other cultures.
@Justin Gary The bible, without shame, condones slavery. The confederacy used the bible to justify its vile and immoral practice of slavery prior to the start of the civil war. The fact that northern abolitionists spoke out against slavery does nothing to change the fact that the bible permits and gives guidance for the "owning" of human beings. The pun I used is obvious. The bible is morally imperfect. No human should EVER own another human. Still, the bible states in Exodus 21:20-21 says, “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.” Disgusting.
@Justin Gary Jesus allegedly said, "“I have not come to abolish the Law and the prophets but to fulfill them” (Matthew 5:17). He speaks about slaves in his parables but never condemns the practice. Instead, he uses slavery as a metaphor for humans relationship with god; Luke 17,7-10. Believe all you want, but don't pretend Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions don't endorse slavery.
The problem with these atheist arguments: They forget that before American freedom, a vast majority of people throughout history were not free. So, in essence, slavery was not a much lower position from the average person. Bondage to rulers of kingdoms or individuals made little difference, so you must look at it from this perspective, & not from your modern American sensibilities.
@@chrisworthman3191 Right or wrong, it is an accurate account of civilization's state at that time, & the Bible astutely revealed the evil of humanity in all its forms.
@@michaelantonio It also removes a god from being the source of morality. Only a cult could make its members be champions of slavery. That is the true danger of religion. It can made otherwise good people defend evil.
@@christopherianlister5212 if you had a lot of land and could provide for me where I couldn’t on my own, why not? It wasn’t cruel. Talking specifically as if we were around during that era and with the regulations the Torah held. It’s not like it was promoting it. It’s like having a job. I’m happy with my job because without them, I’d be homeless and without food.
Interesting, four people read the bible, 2 find it supports slavery, the other 2 find it does not. This country has been divided like that before about the slavery issue. I am glad the side who interpreted that slavery is wrong won.
And yet the law code clearly states how to enslave. You know, one of those first four commandments on yahweh's vanity could have been changed to "don't enslave people". And the 7 years to free the slaves (isrealite), well, hammurabi had it set to 3, so it wasn't even a more merciful law code.
Yet it’s true. Why are you stuck on the default that god must be good. When you are shown blatant evil, you just call it odd. Have you ever thought that maybe the god of the Bible is actually very bad?
Cliffs only argument against the issue is his own interpretation that fits a narrative that favorable but he doesn’t actually address what the Bible actually says.
God commands people to love one another. Owning slaves is antithetical to that. God didn't need to specify. Does Matt think we need another commandment that says not to punch somebody in the face? Or not to call them names? You don't need to see those in the commandments to know doing those things is wrong.
Matt does condone slavery anyway. If God created a commandment against slavery, he'd say God was preventing him from existing because he'd lose half the products he uses. He says he believes in minimum wage, but none of the things he purchases uses it. And that's in modern times! With refrigerators and supermarkets and cheap debt and credit cards and social safety nets! It's absurdly easy to just say stuff.
Its easy for him when he goes against college kids who dont know how to articulate themselves. When he goes against actual intellectuals he struggles and has to divert and distract to keep his argument together.
Those who lead into captivity will go into captivity. You have the free will to have a slave it doesn’t mean God agrees with it life must go on with the decision of man
@@seekwisdom7254 So he doesn’t necessarily agree with slavery but he did decide that forbidding shellfish was more important than forbidding people to own slaves
Deuteronomy 5:12-15 King James Version 12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee. 13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: 14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
Yes the Christ of the Day of the Lord is the Sabbath. Sabbath of the old testament started on Friday night. So anyone eating on Friday night and having alcohol or what ever isn't actually following the Bible. Keep Christ, not a day that most have no idea what keeping the Sabbath even means. writing, erasing, and tearing (paper?) business transactions; *driving or riding in cars* or other vehicles; meaning traveling.. [people traveling on Sabbath (Friday night) are breaking the Law. Ironic.] shopping; using the telephone; turning on or off anything which uses electricity, including lights, radios, television, computer, air-conditioners and alarm clocks; cooking, baking or kindling a fire; gardening and grass-mowing; doing laundry; cook or light a fire using or touching items that are considered muktzeh and carrying outdoors. sweeping it away with a broom Objects that are forbidden from use because of Torah prohibition, e.g.: Non-kosher food, chametz on Passover; also included are objects used for a mitzvah, such as sechach (rooftop greenery) that fell off a sukkah; On Shabbat one may not carry or transfer objects between a "reshut ha-yachid" (private, enclosed domain, such as the house); and a "reshut ha-rabim" (public domain, such as the street). Neither may one carry an object in a reshut ha-rabim for more than four cubits (six feet). Examples of this prohibition include: carrying in one's pocket; carrying anything in the hand; wheeling a baby carriage or shopping cart, going outside with gum or food in the mouth. etc These are all condemnable on the Sabbath. By law
@@abashedsanctimony154 We certainly obtain a necessary motivation from our work, as we admire with some satisfaction our achievements, whether they be of significance or not so significant; And this motivation is a healthy and necessary one, but it’s not to be obtained on the sabbath day. The sabbath day is a day to take a break from patting ourselves on the back from admiring our work achievements. This is called holiness. And as much as we try to keep the sabbath, the more we shall receive the benefits/blessings of the sabbath. There is a special blessing that God attaches to the 7th day which is quantifiable because it’s noticeable; And it’s available to us provided we quit working on the sabbath day for the previously mentioned reasons. Okay you gotta do what you’ve got to do, but as much as possible try not to work. Make it a holy day. That list of things you drew up about what is required on the sabbath day is nonsense. Here is a video called my sabbath testimony. th-cam.com/video/FNd3-QtysMI/w-d-xo.html
Hi guys. Here is a piece of information that I found with regards to Deutoronomy 20 vs10 which says:- 'is “forced labor” a correct translation? Yes, it is a very good one. The King James Version (the AV) translated this phrase as “tribute” or “tributary” seventeen times… but it did so 400 years ago. Newer translations, like the NIV, ESV, NASB, HCSB, ISV, and GWT have responded to a fresher view of history, a better understanding of the ancient languages and the necessity of communicating using contemporary English by translating that Hebrew phrase as “forced labor” - which is a clearer rendering for today’s readers. Most contemporary readers would understand “tribute” to mean paying money (which is not totally out of reason, because person/hours are the basis of value). But Deuteronomy 20:10-11 was more about people being captured and put to work - which is still technically tribute - but tribute is no longer the best word. That being said, the Douay-Rheims Bible (which I rarely cite) expresses more so than the others that the forced labor was the tribute - and I think that this is the best explanation of the AV’s use of the term. “If at any time thou come to fight against a city, thou shalt first offer it peace. If they receive it, and open the gates to thee, all the people that are therein, shall be saved, and shall serve thee paying tribute. But if they will not make peace, and shall begin war against thee, thou shalt besiege it.” (Deuteronomy 20:10-12, D-R, emphasis mine)' Hope this gives a bit more clarity to our atheist friends, I pray for you both Matt and Josh. God bless.
And we think for you. And have compassion for your attempts to square this circle. Cliffs closing is borderline a complete and utter lie. I mean how he ignored this whole debate and either out of old age or complete dishonesty said the same thing both opening and closing.
Matt doesn't condone slavery but yet he is a slave to sin...If he doesn't condone slavery, then why does he allow himself to be a slave to sin (in which he is actually supporting slavery)? The one who has set the most slaves free is the good shepherd Jesus Christ who gave His life for us all, the one who alone has the power to destroy the works of the devil in our lives. Matt, if you do not condone slavery, and yet you are a slave to sin, then why don't you run to the only one who can truly set you free? God bless.
He doesn’t believe in sin, his understanding of right and wrong is based on different principles than yours. A Muslim or Hindu (or even a different Christian from a different sect) could say the same exact thing about you being a slave to sin too. What does it even mean to be a slave to sin anyway?
Buy a fucking dictionary and look up the definition of sin FFS, how can a person that has no reason to accept god's exist , sin against what does not have evidence of existing.
This is helarious because the audience well at least in the comment section here... the theists just don't listen or understand but they just feel / think that they won the debate.
It's really sad to listen to a grown adult talk like this and ignore what they obviously so desperately trying to deny. The really sad part is that they are both lovely people who do so many good things.
@James G if you, someone who is trying to morally justify slavery (doesn’t matter the fucking timeline), were to teleport back in time and live under the very conditions/rules you mentioned as a slave, would you be ok with that?
@James G was this a copy & paste? did you even read my comment, let alone answer my question? again, to reiterate zachary’s comment: children, this is your brain fried off indoctrination and inability to apply logic & reason as it relates to the real world
Generally good but most of these, especially with Matt, come down to different definitions of words and contextual application thereof. And when did Ray Comfort say "I don't believe everything in the Bible"? Unless that was again a misunderstanding of the meaning of words and contextual application.
They had a debate and that's roughly what he said. The only ones taking things out of context are the theists and then we go into a circle jerk because of it
@@lewiskunst1089 excuse me I don't group you and other people don't necessarily group you into one large group and generalize like that I am someone who stand strong and friendly by God I don't put you in any category unless you choose the category for example if you tell me you're an atheist then you're nice used if you tell me you're a naturalist for naturalist the song but I don't put you in a group with other people just because it's something I want to say so don't do that with cs or God-fearing people or any group.
@@lewiskunst1089 why are atheists so angry all the time? Angry over an imaginary being? Seems like a waste of time to me. Jesus can change your angry heart
One thing I would like to see in a debate is when someone doesn’t actually answer the question at hand or they try to jump to something else’s, I believe the moderator needs to pull them back and hold their feet to the fire till an answer is gave. I did see the moderator do this up to a point but Cliff was able to dance away from a few without a real answer, also when it comes to times some calls out another don’t interrupt. as if they are backing them in a Corner this is when the real answer will be squeeze out.
Where are the earlier church scholars writings on the understanding of this topic? I would love to hear someone from the 1st through the 15th or 16th centuries understanding of slavery!
well common sense...slavery im Africa existed way before the white man..it had nothing to do with race and wasn't chattel slavery...they had rights...same in the Roman empire where jews were slaves and throughout the bible...it has been perversed overtime and that's sad
I'd rather be an indentured servant than homeless. Food, water, shelter, companionship, dignified work vs. sleeping on the streets and begging. Yes, 100%, any day.
Yea, Anti Theists keep equivocating indentured servitude with slavery, but they're not the same. Slavery was not beneficial, but indentured servitude could provide one with securities.
I would rather be homeless than being owned as someones property that could be passed down to children and beaten as long as I dont die. Also while being beaten have no right to leave
@@mollyambass7231 would you do so knowing that in the contract it states you could be abused as long as you dont die and that you cannot leave whenever you want to? Imagine getting punched in the face by your employer but you still need to work for him and he could do so again if he is not satisfied with you and you have no right to leave.
Am I the only one who is annoyed when the 3 hour discussion is cut off at the 1:20:00ish mark so people can pay to ask questions? I really like the open discussion and the superchat shit annoys me.. Not saying I'm right, maybe I'm crazy.
If God doesn't exist why do people get so upset when The Gospel is preached because the TRUTH hits us in the very fabric of our DNA & makes us look in the mirror. JESUS CHRIST is the ONLY TRUTH Hallelujah! If CHRIST doesn't live in you, then the Devil lives in you. It's that simple. I'm so thankful I didn't get overeducated in the Luciferin ELITES owned university's but was raised by poor Blueridge mountain parents who lived for JESUS CHRIST. I tried my way for 25 years & Satan nearly Destroyed me but God saved me 6 months ago & I'm truly Thankful God never gave up on me or my Wife who also got saved . JESUS CHRIST is the SAVIOUR.
People get upset because if religion leads scientific progress slows to a crawl, people will get abused for just not believing, preachers are free to manipulate and so on. I've got proof on the last two parts if you need that.
😢why do you believe in a god when out of the thousands still worshipped today, not one believer of any gods has evidenced any of them to actually exist. Why do you believe Jesus was an actual man that existed when other than stories written about him by no one actually knows who, of which there is not one account, record of his existence that is independently sourced, verified and corrobrated by any known to have existed persons by that same criteria that is evidence he actually did so. There are only three reasons to believe a god exist, 1/ one is indoctrinated to before their mind is formed, and groomed to accept those indoctrinated beliefs as true throughout ones formative years, 2/ one is a spiv, con man silver tongued snake oil salesman's dream, an absolutely gullible cunt , or 3/ like a drowning man they will reach out at a straw floating by to rescue them, they are the ones that cannot cope with the realities of living the one and only life we know with certainty we will ever live, belief in a god is a crutch , just like relying on mind bending drugs and alcohol.
@@derekardito2032Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Proverbs 26 : 4 . The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalm 53 : 1.
It seems currently in America, we have the great talent of making comparisons between our modern Western culture and ancient ones that never had our modern laws and societal norms or even the same Religions between themselves. Obviously, slavery is immoral, but the world is a COMPLETELY different place now than it was 2- 4 thousand years ago, and there is absolutely no comparison between western society and the Ancient world- to compare the two equally just doesn't work, and "Consensus Scholarship" on ANYTHING is a bad answer, because a whole lot of people can be wrong about a whole lot of things all at the same time- it's happened throughout history. Please tell me WHY, if Matt doesn't believe the Pentateuch is even partially a historical document or that Moses may not have even existed, WHAT IS THE POINT, and why is he insulting and spitting about something that doesnt matter?
So then, morality of the bible is attached into world those people were living (I agree with this) so it's not "the word of god" anyone should take seriously as moral guide. That's the point, bible can't be claimed as a moral authority if there's moral teaching in one verse and immoral teaching in another. It's just a book, one of the most important ones, but still just one book, many people believe in moral authority of some other book because they claim it to be "holy book" with some kind of supernatural force behind it.
You absolutely CAN compare the modern world with the ancient world. The only real difference is time. Ancient times were a long time ago while modern times are more recent. Unless you are a moral relativist, you would agree that slavery is immoral NO MATTER WHAT TIME PERIOD!! That is the point and yet we still have millions of Christians bending over backwards to justify their evil god's condoning of atrocities like slavery and genocide.
One of Cliffe's common refrains is that God and the Bible gives "objective morality." If that's the case, the rules of morality don't change and should be clearly spelled out for us. But clearly that's not the case or their entire argument here falls through the cracks. So, which is it? Should we use the Bible for guidance on morality today, or is it no longer relevant?
@@sterlingwinston9629 that's a completely different topic, so not relevant in this instance. You can start with his video called "is relative morality moral?" But there are tons of them, it's a very consistent refrain. It's impossible for him to make the argument he's making in this video AND for God to provide objective morality, both can't be true.
Those who lead into captivity will go into captivity. I don’t think he agrees with slavery but used it for the greater good. If slavery didn’t exist Joseph story wouldn’t have came to pass ... we can t understand everything but that doesn’t make him unjust.
Even things man mean for EVIL; God promises he will turn it for good. So God will use the suffering of his people for his plan. You are EXACTLY right! In no way does God condone SLAVERY. We also have to take into consideration that slavery was an acceptable practice in those days. Every culture has enslaved and every culture has been enslaved. We can't look at ancient times through the lens of 2021 moral standard. That's what the Atheist and Agnostic are doing. It's unfair and illogical.
@@seekwisdom7254 Do you understand what you're quoting? Revelation 13:10 (KJV) He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Just want to be sure you understand what you're talking about. That slavery and those being killed by the sword is what our faith and patience is in.
I do not like Matt. Not because he’s an atheist because of his character and how he carries himself in his channel and as a human being. He’s a mocker and an arrogant person. It oozes out of him. I do not dislike people because of their belief. That’s ignorant. Character matters.
It's definetely you. His point was that the Jewish law regulated pre existing slavery and made it NOT slavery. It was actually a great anti poverty system, that i wish we had today. Instead of being homeless and having your life destroyed and losing your family, you retained a home, family and dignity by working for 7 years for a guy who gave you enough money to pull you out of bankruptcy. Would you prefer to sell your work for 7 years or go hobo ? They didnt have the right to rape them, mutilate them, torture them or kill them. It was a work contract, and that is why the term "slave" is not used in the Bible. It's bondsmen, and "slave" is used in an entirely different context later on. The proof is in the pudding. The Christian world is the ONLY one that doesn't practice slavery today.
@@shavin1980ss "How can something be slavery and not be slavery??" It is so simple. People changed terms, and called more brutal practices a name that previously meant wage laborers or prisoners of war. After all, the Torah unequivocally prohibits (kidnapping) and the practice that we called slavery a couple of centuries ago.
How can you make an argument "Well i dont believe the bible is true" when the literal topic of the debate is biblical morality of slavery. You have to acknowledge what the bible says regardless of whether you believe its true or not. Kind of a pointless debate anyways, its not like we still consider it wrong eating shellfish or mixing cloth, or having to sacrifice animals on an alter. It was a different time, everyone recognizes that.
We have not done away with indentured servitude! We are all debt slaves! Even if your house and property are paid for, if you don't keep working to pay the taxes, you will have an encounter with armed enforcers! WE ARE LEGAL SLAVES FROM BIRTH TO DEATH!
Stuart and Cliff do nothing but prosthelytize when asked to answer direct questions and then complain on the Bible being taken literally. Plain language would be nice, we don’t hint at obscure ideas when training employees nor teaching in schools. They are not providing any value to the discussion but merely preaching. I guess that’s what happens when there is no defense within the writings.
I like how Matt says nowhere in The Bible does it say slaves are wrong but God Nowhere in The Bible says it's right. God or Jesus never once said slavery was OK in The Bible no specific words in The Bible says slavery was OK!
Jesus is the high witness of god he has made him know to us so when atheists say why doesn’t god revealed himself he did thru Jesus Christ there about 25 000 manuscripts of Jesus stories and the copies of these stories all say the same things over and over even Luke said it Luke 1: Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, 2 just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, 3 I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent The·ophʹi·lus
I can answer. I advocate for the position of atheism as it is often misconstrued to be an ideology, belief system, worldview, or even a religion. It is none of those. Atheism is a POSITION - a state of affair. It is the position of suspending any acknowledgement as to the existence of gods until sufficient credible evidence is presented. It is natural, rational, and prudent to be skeptical of unsubstantiated claims, especially extraordinary ones. Wouldn't you agree?
I watched Cliff today debating college students. He did something I found to be very disingenuous, he said that science points to god, not a god, his god. The leap from god to my god is absolutely enormous. He did it with no explanation of how it was his god.
@@chrisworthman3191 Can you explain the difference between historical testimonies and historical hearsay? I ask because I think you are conflating modern hearsay standards with historical narratives of antiquity. Both are quite different, so I want to make sure we use standards properly. :)
@@chrisworthman3191 "Hearsay is repeating something you were told without first hand knowledge." Correct, that is current evidence for modern court rooms. However, I asked you what is the difference for historical testimony compared to historical hearsay since we have to work within the contexts of the time. For example, modern hearsay evidence is meant to esnure the ability to cross-examine the person being quoted. This is obviously impossible when the text is from nearly 2000 years ago, hence why historical narratives involve different tests to determine their veracity. If we applied modern hearsay rules to historical docs, basically nothing would be accepted as historically verifiable! :P "It is most certainly not sufficient for extraordinary claims." Right, and what is sufficient for extraordinary claims? Say, for example, you were told by a trsuted friend he was abducted by aliens. More than this, his household/family also told you they saw him get abducted. Then, say a majority of your neighborhood and friend circle stepped forward claiming the same thing, that they saw said friend get abducted. Then, say other places start experiencing the say phenomenon of people getting abducted to the point where hundreds claim abduction and thousands vouch for them. Assume all of this is only earnest testimony and the reports only grow from here. At what point do you believe the testimony, or at least recognize it could be possible?
The atheist and agnostic lied about Numbers 21 and Numbers 23 in the Bible. It specifically states that you shall not make one a slave in those chapters.
It's such a red flag when Stuart smiles and laughs when Josh calls him out for saying the young girls who were taken as plunder were fortunate simply because they were allowed to survive. Don't know if he's married or has daughters, but damn! And seeing he and his dad fist bump over Cliffe saying that these girls "may not have been raped" is horrendous.
Someone built this cell phone hardware and created and programmed the operating system just like our human DNA's complex coded strands. I understand the confusion if you don't study the word and experience the relationship but to believe everything came from nothing.....
So who created the complex creator? If you're arguing that a being showing complexity in its makeup can't possibly exist without a designer/creator, then surely a complex creator also had to have a creator, and a creator had to have created that creator, ad nauseum.
@@lugialover09 But that doesn't follow with the logic used. So seeing as there's a break in that logic then they cannot expect to have anyone take that argument seriously. It's fascinating to see the cognitive dissonance, but frustrating to deal with.
The issue is that nobody knows the origin of the universe. But some ppl pretend to know with such confidence that they have forgotten they don't know like everyone else.
The slaves were free to choose whether they wanted to be "slaves" or not. My main point being, it was illegal to return them if they ran away. In other words, if they quit their "job" nobody could force them to go back. They were free to choose to stay or leave with no repercussions.
@@rampagingswine9475 that’s the point… people like to make it seem like They where shackled Working field slaves but in all reality they where employees….
Except that same person, those slaves that escaped, could in fact become slaves again, including of the same people they ran away from. Another tribe, nation could capture those slaves themselves, make them a slave again, and even resell them to the same people, which would not be returning them, just reselling them but as slaves.
So basically .....it was objectively morally right to have slaves in he past....then when humans decided it wasn’t good.....god changed his mind and then said it was objectively morally wrong . I get it now
The Bible was against slavery from the Beginning, Exodus 21:16 states: 16And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death." So God ordered the death penalty for kidnapping and selling.
@ Jericho Sharman, there is no where in that scripture that is stated only for the Israelites, that is you adding to the scripture! The apostle Paul later on in the new Testament understood that stealing a man, or menstealing, was always contrary to God's will for mankind according to this scripture 1 Timothy 1:9-10 "9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for MENSTEALERS, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine" Menstealing, which obviously means kidnapping is grouped in with murderers and lawless behavior! Also God commanded the Israelite to love the strangers and not to vex them according to Leviticus 19:33-34 33And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God."
@@groache1501 actually it’s history, and it’s in the Old Testament where they were perfectly fine with taking slaves from other nations but it was illegal to use their own as slaves. It’s rather overtly obvious I’m surprised you haven’t read it. Clearly this god in the bible is a ruthless maniac and you can see with his followers today they usually have a very poor and paltry behaviour generally . Judging by its fruit, which is quite disgusting , I would advise people against being Christians or dignifying the bible as having anything worthy of aspiring too.
If they took any person against their will, and sold them, the law of God stated that they should be put to death. The scriptures say this, not me! The scriptures also say the Israelites were to love the strangers as one of their own. So any person who enslaved another, would be violating the scriptures, as the scriptures are very clear about that. But remember that if evolution is true, then a human being is a lifeform on this planet, just like lizards, donkeys, monkeys, birds, fish, roaches, etc. There would be no basis for acting as if somehow our species would have worth and significance. Evolution does not have a will or mind to dictate worth or value. So even if the Bible commanded slavery, there would be no real basis for acting like some great immoral action occurred.
This is what Religion does to you. Cliff abiousoly knowns that slavery is immortal. But he can't reconcile that the very God that he believes in and worships IS the one who prescribes it, and how to do it. If slavery was mentioned in any other "holy book" he would waste no time in saying that tha God was evil. But since it's the God that he believes in, he just can't because his moral compass would be destroyed. It's so abious. You don't need to be an Atheist or a Theist to notice the problem with this.
So you just ASSUME that he would call another holy book's god evil if slavery was mentioned? You must know everyone's intentions. if the God of the bible didnt want to look bad, I dont think He would have stories where he judged civilizations. Like the flood.
@@meowyme2573 No commandment stating "Thou shalt not own a person as property". Plus in exodus 21 god actually tells the Jews to pick their slaves from surrounding pagan tribes.
Wow, I mean I was kind of expecting a one-sided debate, but holy shit was this a smack down. Never seen so many moments when one side was so silent and could hardly answer half the questions that were asked them. And the Christians were literally getting lectured on biblical text by the atheists. Just amazing and ironic.
I didn’t get that at all. There is a big difference in having faith in OT vs NT. Our sins were/are washed away from the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The OT is valid and has value, but there is an inherent wrong received message to believe we are saved through acts or works. We are saved through Jesus Christ dying on the cross, accepting Him and repenting. The rest is historical semantics
@@AR-ed8jp No. You have faith in mythology. And because you apparently don't know what a myth is, I will provide one with examples. *myth* - noun *_dictionary.com_* (parenthetical examples mine) 1. Traditional (Christian) or legendary story (the crucifixion of Jesus), usually concerning some being (son of god) or hero (messiah) or event (resurrection), with or *_without_* a determinable basis of fact (evidence) or a natural explanation (supernatural), especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods (father, son, holy spirit) and explains some practice (prayer), rite (salvation), or phenomenon of (creation) of nature.
Moderator please do a little more moderating. When Cliff refuse to answer question time and time again in an obvious attempt to hide fact he was getting slaughtered . I know you are nice guy.
You're wrong. Matt: Slavery is wrong because slaves suffer. Cliffe: Slavery is wrong because God doesn't like slavery (which means slavery would be good if God would like it).
@James G There is no former slaves now in USA. And why would descendants of former slaves be compensated? Why should white poor guy that never owned slaves himself pay tax dollars that would go to rich black guy?
Your - or at least cliffes - god is totally okay with slavery. Exodus 21. But it doesn’t matter in the end. All religions are incarnations of primitive and childish superstition.
@@joshuaolutobi3564 it's a book of fables That's it There is very little historic accuracy that the bible can show to lend itself the credence of being an inerrant book claimed to be written or "inspired" by the Abrahamic God Of course certain historical locations are mentioned in the bible but the people and whether or not they existed is not in contention
A judge is not responsible for crime, but has the authority to punish even his own children who commit crimes. It doesn’t mean the judge enjoys it, but must fulfill his role as judge since it’s his authority alone. :/
@@T1999-c6u There is no indication that there is a sky daddy in which your talking about. Yet there is a God who created everything and His name is Jesus Christ God Almighty. There is no other God .
@@T1999-c6u Well you got more than enough proof as it is what more could you possibly need. Jesus Christ who is God in the flesh is proof enough by Himself. Do you want to know the truth ?
Matt: "I keep asking a question that you don't answer how is this binding on anybody who's not a biblic bible-believing christian Cliffe" "Well obviously i would think you'd be able to answer that question yourself "
Stuart, it's clear you're starting to see the song and dance of Christianity. I really hope you find the strength to break the cycle. Liberate yourself and all those that follow you.
Why tf would he do that and lose his family his dad his job at the church his friends for what? It's not worth it. I'm an atheist and I wouldn't recommend that just if anything stop with Christian apologetics if he wanted to
Paul says obey the government. Admits there is slavery. But resist evil. Does this indicate slavery at the time was not evil, but just a fact of life??
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@Silenced one no, it has come from long discussions with these three or four atheist ruthlessly ignore many facts we asked or shown or even in the philosophical discussion refuse to answer questions and they that's coming back to say osculate or filibuster by Etc if you haven't talked with you easiest then you'd understand there's one nice guy on here who doesn't lie to us who is it rude but doesn't to ignore questions and he's me if you have full respect for him that's the difference.
@Silenced one Check some of the threads under these videos bud... But if you've got something to bring to the table, then how about bringing it? Unless of course, all you really want to do is waste people's time... I mean, you just claimed that you KNOW that Christianity is false! _Really?_ HOW do you KNOW that Christianity is false and WHY should we believe whatever it is that you do? You want to rumble? _Let's rumble!_ PS: Nobody said not to talk to them; just to do so at their own discretion.
@Silenced one So you believe that Christianity is true? Of course you don't! _C'mon bra, why you playin' games?_ Is it because you're just out to waste people's time talking about something you aren't willing to consider?
In Christian tradition, the four canonical Gospel accounts in the New Testament are attributed to the Four Evangelists: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John:Matthew According to Christian tradition, Matthew was one of Jesus' twelve apostles and a tax collector from Capernaum. Some say he wrote the Gospel of Matthew around AD 85-90.Mark Some say Mark was written by Peter's secretary and was influenced by Peter's stories, wisdom, and leadership until his martyrdom between 64 and 67 CE. Others say the authorship of Mark is unknown. Some say it was written around AD 66-70.Luke Some say Luke was written by a close traveling companion of Paul. Others say Luke wrote the Gospel of Luke around AD 85-90.John Some say John was written by the "beloved disciple" mentioned in the fourth gospel. Others say John was an apostle who had known Jesus and wrote the Gospel of John around AD 90-110. The apostle Paul dates to 49-53 for Galatians, Thessalonians, and Corinthians which is 16-20 years after the trial, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and his writings collaborate with the four gospels and even credits the apostles and Luke (a physician) and Mark (a scholar) as being reliable witnesses. To date we have over 5800 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, with an astounding 2.6 million pages of biblical text. If we lost every copie of the New Testament, we could reconstruct it with the textual and manuscript evidence we currently have to date with 99% accuracy and the 1% that could be debated doesn't alter the meaning in any meaningful way.
Cliffe is sooo f-ing good! I like him. Ofc his arguments are laughable, but they're the most convincing I've ever heard. What he's great at is drawing your attention away from the weaknesses using his sonorous exegesis.
The whole bible story is that man disobeyed God and sinned and became slave to sin and God came and redeemed them from sin and made them free from sin.
I love how, everytime James mentions a verse, Matt (the atheist) knows exactly what the verse says, and Cliffe (the Christian) has to flick through the Bible and check.
Matt had all the verses containing slavery themes already highlighted on his computer probably, while cliffe has the entire 39 old and 27 new flowing through his head, x
Is the term slave an archaic term for employee? What if slave/servant was the term used in lieu of employee since the modern term of employee, maid or butler didn't exist at the time. Although, helper could be used, it seems slave is the equivalent to someone that were employed to their master, boss or manager. These servants weren't paid with money, but instead a trade of their work for shelter, food & clothing. Although hurting them was wrong, it was the unfortunate punishment in case they disobeyed or wronged the master. We've come a long way as far as service goes from ownership to employment. People learn and given wisdom and many of that wisdom comes from the Bible.
I cannot believe I came to rewatch this debate after watching it on modern day debates channel, and I see a comment section full of people saying cliff won, you guys are so blind aren’t you?
Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, Dillahunty isn't as reliable as so many of his fans insist? Besides, Dr. Bowen is more of an expert on Assyrian history; I don't think he's as reliable on history surrounding the Bible.
I just feel real sorry for atheists, because one day they will have to find out the truth and it will be too late to do anything about it. Also, the laws in the Bible are not required for your salvation. John 3:16 explains this very succinctly. Believe in Jesus and you are saved. Since your belief is the only thing required, nothing you do can lose your salvation. Not to say itcan't bring great pain here on earth and rewards in Heaven.
Where does it say you have to believe in god before you die? Everyone could repent right before they die even if they were an athiest their whole life too lol. Also your comment achieved nothing except voice your belief lmao.
@@cryptedd2444 Do you think their belief would be genuine? Or were they just saying they believed just in case? Belief isn't just a declaration. It has to be a genuine belief that Jesus was God in human form, sent to die for all of your sins so that you could have eternal life. You really think an atheist is going to come to that realization at the last second? Not saying it isn't possible. Just not likely. You use the word "repent" like most pastors use it. Like it's to ask for forgiveness for your sins. Repent simply means "a changing of mind". You do not have to ask for forgiveness for your sins. They have already been paid for. You just have to accept the gift by believing that it's true.
@@hueysimon2726 A lot of people, atheists and agnostics alike turn to Christianity when a loved one dies or when they feel they are near death. Fear alone can give anyone a heartfelt belief.
"The Bible agrees that slavery is wrong" Where does it say this? So many statements concerning other aspects of life, but slavery was a society and government issue. Christians should just treat property better
It's such a massive self-report when Christians say that without the threat of hell they see no reason not to commit crimes, you're really showing us the superiority of theist morality guys.
Deuteronomy 20:11-14 “If they accept (offer of peace) and open their gates, all the people in the city shall be subject to FORCED LABOUR and shall WORK FOR YOU. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to the city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, PUT TO THE SWORD ALL THE MEN IT. ALL THE WOMEN, THE CHILDREN, THE LIVESTOCK and everything else in the city, YOU MAY TAKE THESE AS PLUNDER FOR YOURSELVES.” Shortly followed by Deuteronomy 20:16-17 “However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as inheritance, DO NOT LEAVE ALIVE ANYTHING THAT BREATHES. COMPLETELY DESTROY THEM... as the Lord your God has commanded you.” But I suppose it does say in the New Testament to love thy neighbour, so I guess it’s all ok?
@@godloves9163 Haha. Of course - I QUOTE from your holy book, something that I'm sure you'd agree is abhorrent, and the only defence you have is - attack his political beliefs?
@James G What is your point exactly? The Bible (also known as the "Good Book") clearly advocates genocide, pillage and slavery (as well as homophobia, misogyny, animal sacrifice, to name but a few), which Christians continuously try to deny or apologise for. I don't know what anything about slavery in the US prior to abolition or the Second World War has to do with it? Whether or not it actually happened is irrelevant. This is supposedly part of an eternal doctrine revealed by a god.
It is humanitarian for god to proclaim procurment of virigin females so that they can live a life as though they were property. If god is all knowing, and as "his creations" NOW know this is to be immoral, why did god just seem to say f it, they'll figure it out in 2000 years??
What drove me nuts is how James thought it was more important to get to more questions than to adequately address the one they were on. Just let me them talk, people wanna see it all go down.
"Thou shalt not own another human being as property" Simple!!
Those who lead those into captivity will go into captivity.
Ephesian 6:5-8 Fancypants Paul states “Slaves be obedient to your human masters with with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ” I literally have only had to google this.
@@mauddib696 Yes, the apostle paul is attempting to slowly get rid of a slave filled culture and explaining to the people of the day how to be a christian with the same culture that existed at the time.
This isn’t justification for slavery, this is a leader attempting to help ease a broken people into a better social structure.
Understanding historical context is good
@@heatrn11god never seems to condemn slavery tho, neither our lord and saviour. Why couldn’t god specify. Why does rely on human interpretation for an all knowing being he doesnt seem to know a lot. Like how people were gonna take those lines not just in the new but also the old. If ur excuse is oh it was a part of the time. I expect better from god.
@@mauddib696 because its a letter, not law
Exodus 21:16 “And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.”
@Sam Farza Kidnappers, or slave stealers?
?
The text says to *buy* your slaves from the heathen around you, when it comes to biblical morality there is always a loophole.
If you buy your slave you didn't kidnap them someone else did.
It's impossible to get away from the fact that the bible condones slavery.
@@badgerbush3556 word for word and that’s it what it says. Also, the first slaves recorded in history are white people being slaves in Egypt and some ran away and became the nation of India when they mixed with colored people. Also slave is not only about being a slave to another person as it’s a term definition about your capture to that of what your a slave to and most slaves are in the heart to immortal and hatred and confusion and bitterness.
Leviticus 25:39-46
this is a sad reality of this world. that this kinds of briliant videos have near 10k views...
Maybe the world has a different idea about ‘brilliant’
Brilliant? Lol they're literally debating whether or not a magic man is required. It's the dumbest shit on the internet besides flat earth.
@@imcollkoolkool2 you willgrow one day.
@@idontknowWhatTosay8 I’m afraid that’s something you will never experience being stuck in your infantile narrative
@James G grow up and get some real education, fool
I think the question part should be taken out because James uses it for an excuse to shut everyone up when things start getting good
Stuart look like Tom holland spiderman
Bruh 😂😂
I was watching this debate and my sister walked in and literally told me that exactly 😂
Lol!!!!! He does, man
😂😂😂
A lot of people in this comment section (most of them) need hugs ☹️
Like who?
Cliffe and his son were used car salesman before they realized they can make more money selling religious bs to the fools.
Cliffs and Stuart did alright but could have done better , anytime Matt or )and Josh you want a peaceful debate , I'll be happy to
@@rl4438 , old news now, I've moved on already
My favorite part of this debate is how Stuart and Cliffe never once say the versus Matt & Josh use are wrong. Not once.
Instead they gave other verses that contradicted Matt & Josh versus. Which they are so happy to do yet the idiots don't realize they just prove the bible is full of contradictions hahahahaha
God is against slavery in the Old Testament
Exodus 21:16
"16And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death."
God is against slavery in the New Testament
1 Timothy 1:9-10
"9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for MENSTEALERS, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"
You will note that "stealeth a man" from the Old Testament is cross referenced with "menstealers" in the New Testament.
The word menstealers is from the Greek word ANDRAPODISTES, which means a slave dealer or slave driver, so it is clear that throughout the Bible, God doesn't like people enslaving each other!
And just to make it clear, God doesn't just care about the Israelites in the Old Testament, he cared about the foreign nations aswell.
Leviticus 19:33-34
"33And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
If what you are saying is true, why other passages of the Bible condone slavery? Isn't the Bible contradicting itself?
The idea that the Bible condones slavery, only works with the new translations of the Bible which came out in the last 40 years, the King James version which was released in 1611, about 400 years ago, cannot be used to put forth the idea that the Bible condones slavery. If the Bible condones something, it should be able to be justified using the most authentic version.
Exodus 21:16 is kidnapping but sure
Yep, just ignore everything said in this debate. That's fine.
I love the good attitude of this group, especially Dr. Josh and Stuart. This is a great debate.
Really dude? You don't listen do you? slavery is wrong...god should know this...but this silly imaginary thing you created on your head does nothing...your religion JUSTIFIED SLAVERY!! So stop the righteous indignation it's disgusting
What?
@@Man-lw1vp from my memory, of a year ago, it was a good debate and very respectful.
@@smithy719 oh ok
What's the name of Dr. Josh's book please?
And I have to say, the atheists obviously won, hands down.
Did the Old Testament Endorse Slavery? is the title. He does a good job in going deep into the topic.
@@lugialover09 thank you
Nonbelievers [Antitheists] are the worst of creatures. Less than pigs. Less than dogs. - Quran [abridged]
Love thy neighbor as you love thyself. Love your enemies. -Holy Bible [abridged]
@Silenced one you brought up ceremonial law, that only applies to those who are Jewish, Christians don’t follow ceremonial law because of Jesus Christ.
Kill the non-believer - Deuteronomy 13 [abridged]
The crusades were an amazing hugging contest. Also those canninites just had an amazing time with the israelites when they barged in with the biggest game of fencing ever, they just all forgot their protective equipment so they just went all out.
So want was the 2000 years of genocide torture bigotry and slavery all about.
I'm not in an inerrantist, but do you want to know what God thinks of slavery read when Jesus(God) discussed sin as a type of slavery, and the context is obvious that it's a bad thing.
Sin is bad but here is the rules for doing it doesn't make much sense bud 🤷♂️
They were talking about literal slavery which the bible condones and gives instruction on how to handle the matter.
Just google it if You don't want to read Your bible.
But if You do read the bible, You'll see how it's sick and twisted in many ways... besides condoning slavery that is.
@@AnarchoPunkChad lol... it's in the bible and the information is on the internet as well. Look up exodus 21. Also look this up if You're going to say "but that's in the old testament" look this up on the web: "No, Jesus Did Not Soften the Old Testament-In Fact He Did the Opposite, and Here’s What That Means"
@@AnarchoPunkChad is exodus 21 in the bible? If so then slavery is in the bible... and it's 100% condoned. You're just in denial or too lazy to go read the bible for yourself or to even google something.
@@AnarchoPunkChad start from exodus 19 to get a better context. You can do it Man... I believe in You.
Matt Dillahunty says he's anti slavery yet had no problem owning Cliffe in this debate
Geez 😂😂😂😂
Cliff sounds like them Aliens from Tim Burton's "Mars Attacks" but every word he says is "Nag Nag Naa Jesus"
Im glad this debate happened. What it shows is that when facing inarticulate college kids cliffe comes off an intellectual powerhouse but when facing someone who knows his stuff....cliffe has to divert, distract and fabricate to keep his argument together. Cliffe doesn't understand because he wants god to be real doesn't me he is. To show it he has to use actual evidence. Appeals to intuition/emotion is not evidence, its just wishful thinking.
Yeah, I had no idea what point he was making when Matt posed his first question to him. It did not look like the same Cliffe you see on campuses
@James G No, not adequately.
You’re talking about Josh right not Matt, because Matt definitely doesn’t know his stuff.
@Justin Gary yeah I agree, I think if it weren’t for him I would probably give the edge to Cliff, because I think he did pretty well with opening statement but when it came to cross-examination, him and his son really floundered, I really couldn’t adequately answer any of Josh’s questions, and I actually agree with them more. I think Josh was definitely undoubtedly the best performance from this debate, even though I disagree with his points many of them.
Cliff made solid point with the colege kid and these 2 persons the difference îs that the colege Kids actually listen Cliff also provider historical proof not just emotions stop lying
if yall are confused on slavery from the bible go to inspiring philosophy he explains it very well.
Have these men asked Jews their opinion on slavery in the OT?
That’s my thing nobody ever debates Jews who actually Follow the OT
God could've cleared this all up so easily by just sending us an updated book... or TH-cam video lol.
Wouldn't that delete the entire purpose of "Free Will" if he was to do that?
@@adrian7983 In what way does that invalidate free will? To give humans improved information somehow means that nobody has free will?
@@lugialover09 I just had the thought that IF god revealed himself it would utterly prove his existence. so every "ashiest" would have 0 ground to stand on and pretty much be forced to worship him.
I kind of thought god set it up perfectly so you could trust one way "I.E God created life and everything else. or "We are just an accident and everything in life is what you make it." Eliminating the 2nd option would only leave the first.
@@adrian7983 Why should God remain hidden? Why shouldn't we receive definite proof of its existence? Nobody would be forced to worship God (unless God actively chose to force us in which case that says more about God than us) if we knew for certain about its existence.
Also, no, you're creating a false dichotomy where if life coming about by accident (which isn't disproven by the way) isn't true, then we have to accept that God created life. That entirely ignores every other religion that worships a different life-creating deity or the possibility of aliens introducing life on Earth and so on. All we can say is that we don't definitively know how the universe and life came about, and that's okay. It's okay to admit that we don't know something.
We wouldn't be "forced" to acknowledged his existence. Just like I'm not forced to acknowledge my dad exists. He just does.
Deuteronomy 4:29
King James Version
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Leviticus 25:44-46
"‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
Disgusting.
Funny how people always find the god they go looking for.
@@chrisworthman3191 Yes I suppose there’s even the 3 headed frog God. Plenty of false Gods out there brother. Except for Judaism and Christianity all religions are man made fabrications to soothe the people and make life relatively safe for the rich. When Napoleon said that the purpose of religion is to stop the poor from murdering the rich, he wasn’t kidding. But that doesn’t mean God does not exist. He exists alright.
I understand how Matt and Josh and many others can see what appears to be slavery condoned in the Bible. But Slavery along with all other forms of degradation and sinfulness did not exist in the beginning when God made man, and it wasn't God's original intent for mankind. Out of love, He let mankind choose their own way. They chose to go after their own desires and that's what let sin and selfishness to come into the world and trickle down to everyone. Slavery, along with all other sins resulted from man's first decision to go after his own desires. The beautiful thing is, God in His mercy and patience, isn't repulsed by mankind because He ultimately knows the better thing he created them for. Rather in spite of sin, he works his goodness in the midst of it. He already had a plan when man sinned to bring Jesus in to the world to deal with sin and bring his mankind back into fellowship with Him again. I believe slavery isn't directly dealt with in the Bible because for one, I believe God wanted people to understand the concept of what slavery really is. Hence, the Israelites themselves ended up as slaves at one point. He wanted them to get really familiar with slavery and bondage. Later in the new testament Jesus points out to the religious leaders that they are slaves and in bondage to sin. The Jewish people were very familiar with slaves. They owned slaves but couldn't realized that THEY themselves were slaves. Jesus came to free people from the bondage of sin.
Paul under the new covenant literally says if you are born again and become a follower of Jesus, and are a slave, try if you can to gain freedom. But know that you are free in Christ. I believe the Bible does not have to explicitly say that slavery is wrong to know that God's heart is not for people to be in bondage. Every believer in Jesus no matter where in the earth knows that truth. When you yourself are overwhelmed by the love and mercy of God, you desire to be every one else's servant, not for them to serve you. Jesus gave the greatest example for all of us with His own life, and he said he only did what he heard and saw from his Father, and that was to come in the form of a slave or servant, to serve mankind and give His life and buy US back from the bondage and slavery of sin and selfishness that separated us from him in the first place.
What you believe is the indoctrinated bullshit you have been brainwashed to believe and add you own perspective to it. How about evidencing you beliefs to be actuality.
Amen!
Hi The slavery which is talked about here in this debate is based on finance's and conquered peoples, that the Romans used to take control over land and is particularly found in passages in the book of Leviticus, Romans to name two. It is nothing to do with slavery that was prevalent in America that was racist towards black people. So the atheists have to look at this a bit more closely culturally because both forms of slavery are very different from each other. Hope you are both good Cliffe and Stuart. God bless.
Bullshit. They could buy their slaves from their neighbors to include child slaves.
They also could breed them by giving their male slaves a wife to make slave babies.
Stop lying or read the bible. Good luck.
Both forms of slavery or wrong. Have you actually looked at Biblical slavery?
Are you serious with the nonsense you posted (one year ago).?
The bible describes owning people as property and passing them on to your children like inheritance and money. It's immoral.
However slavery in America was supported by the accounts of the Bible because ignorant people believing the book of myths and fairy tales claimed it was their god given right to own slaves thanks to the Bible. They were bought and sold just like people in the Bible and beaten as well. Still a lot more reading that everyone needs to do. The Bible is a horrible book and certainly like other books that claim to be the words of god is not so. Just good story tellers and some philosophers compiling and appropriating stories from other cultures.
WOW! Dr. Josh and Matt "owned" Stuart and Cliffe - pun intended.
Dark joke lol
@@jk.9300 And a dad joke
🤣
@Justin Gary The bible, without shame, condones slavery. The confederacy used the bible to justify its vile and immoral practice of slavery prior to the start of the civil war. The fact that northern abolitionists spoke out against slavery does nothing to change the fact that the bible permits and gives guidance for the "owning" of human beings. The pun I used is obvious. The bible is morally imperfect. No human should EVER own another human. Still, the bible states in Exodus 21:20-21 says, “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.” Disgusting.
@Justin Gary Jesus allegedly said, "“I have not come to abolish the Law and the prophets but to fulfill them” (Matthew 5:17). He speaks about slaves in his parables but never condemns the practice. Instead, he uses slavery as a metaphor for humans relationship with god; Luke 17,7-10. Believe all you want, but don't pretend Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions don't endorse slavery.
The problem with these atheist arguments: They forget that before American freedom, a vast majority of people throughout history were not free. So, in essence, slavery was not a much lower position from the average person.
Bondage to rulers of kingdoms or individuals made little difference, so you must look at it from this perspective, & not from your modern American sensibilities.
How does it make it right?
@@chrisworthman3191 Right or wrong, it is an accurate account of civilization's state at that time, & the Bible astutely revealed the evil of humanity in all its forms.
@@michaelantonio It also removes a god from being the source of morality. Only a cult could make its members be champions of slavery. That is the true danger of religion. It can made otherwise good people defend evil.
Hello, love all Cliffe's videos. Thank you for putting all the time into these videos.
I mean cliff does have aimbot
will you be my slave /servant under the rules in Exodus 21, cliff refused to answer that one...so sad...olo
@@christopherianlister5212 if you had a lot of land and could provide for me where I couldn’t on my own, why not? It wasn’t cruel.
Talking specifically as if we were around during that era and with the regulations the Torah held.
It’s not like it was promoting it. It’s like having a job. I’m happy with my job because without them, I’d be homeless and without food.
@@kylewillhide4422 And thankfully they can only beat you half to death.
I hope you grew past this thinking in 2 years
There is a commandment that says not to own other people. It's called "Love thy neighbor as thyself."
It's just a race to the bottom for christian apologetics at this point.
I am Christian but Atheists won this debate
Wow. Stuart & Cliffe really didn't bring their A-game
@James G wow. CSB
I hear a lot of people talking about he didn’t answer the question fully. But if you listen cliff said he didn’t study certain part of the Bible
Interesting, four people read the bible, 2 find it supports slavery, the other 2 find it does not. This country has been divided like that before about the slavery issue. I am glad the side who interpreted that slavery is wrong won.
The idea that God supports slavery seems odd. He died for our sins to free us.
And yet the law code clearly states how to enslave. You know, one of those first four commandments on yahweh's vanity could have been changed to "don't enslave people". And the 7 years to free the slaves (isrealite), well, hammurabi had it set to 3, so it wasn't even a more merciful law code.
Yet it’s true. Why are you stuck on the default that god must be good. When you are shown blatant evil, you just call it odd. Have you ever thought that maybe the god of the Bible is actually very bad?
I came on this wanting to agree with Stuart and Cliffe but I’m not even sure Cliffe knows where he is
Cliffs only argument against the issue is his own interpretation that fits a narrative that favorable but he doesn’t actually address what the Bible actually says.
God commands people to love one another. Owning slaves is antithetical to that. God didn't need to specify. Does Matt think we need another commandment that says not to punch somebody in the face? Or not to call them names? You don't need to see those in the commandments to know doing those things is wrong.
Matt does condone slavery anyway. If God created a commandment against slavery, he'd say God was preventing him from existing because he'd lose half the products he uses. He says he believes in minimum wage, but none of the things he purchases uses it. And that's in modern times! With refrigerators and supermarkets and cheap debt and credit cards and social safety nets! It's absurdly easy to just say stuff.
The theists were tap dancing so damn hard😂 made Sammy Davis Jr. Jealous🤣
Cliffe has been convincing himself of this stuff for too long. He is being evasive and dishonest.
Its easy for him when he goes against college kids who dont know how to articulate themselves. When he goes against actual intellectuals he struggles and has to divert and distract to keep his argument together.
Cowardice-driven dishonesty and evasiveness --the lifeblood of christian debaters.
Those who lead into captivity will go into captivity. You have the free will to have a slave it doesn’t mean God agrees with it life must go on with the decision of man
@@seekwisdom7254 So he doesn’t necessarily agree with slavery but he did decide that forbidding shellfish was more important than forbidding people to own slaves
No way. Watch his closing statement again. He has blessed understanding and communication of that skill.
Deuteronomy 5:12-15
King James Version
12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.
13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
Yes the Christ of the Day of the Lord is the Sabbath. Sabbath of the old testament started on Friday night. So anyone eating on Friday night and having alcohol or what ever isn't actually following the Bible.
Keep Christ, not a day that most have no idea what keeping the Sabbath even means.
writing, erasing, and tearing (paper?)
business transactions;
*driving or riding in cars* or other vehicles; meaning traveling.. [people traveling on Sabbath (Friday night) are breaking the Law. Ironic.]
shopping;
using the telephone;
turning on or off anything which uses electricity, including lights, radios, television, computer, air-conditioners and alarm clocks;
cooking, baking or kindling a fire;
gardening and grass-mowing;
doing laundry; cook or light a fire
using or touching items that are considered muktzeh and carrying outdoors. sweeping it away with a broom
Objects that are forbidden from use because of Torah prohibition, e.g.: Non-kosher food, chametz on Passover; also included are objects used for a mitzvah, such as sechach (rooftop greenery) that fell off a sukkah;
On Shabbat one may not carry or transfer objects between a "reshut ha-yachid" (private, enclosed domain, such as the house); and a "reshut ha-rabim" (public domain, such as the street). Neither may one carry an object in a reshut ha-rabim for more than four cubits (six feet). Examples of this prohibition include: carrying in one's pocket; carrying anything in the hand; wheeling a baby carriage or shopping cart, going outside with gum or food in the mouth. etc
These are all condemnable on the Sabbath. By law
@@abashedsanctimony154 We certainly obtain a necessary motivation from our work, as we admire with some satisfaction our achievements, whether they be of significance or not so significant;
And this motivation is a healthy and necessary one, but it’s not to be obtained on the sabbath day.
The sabbath day is a day to take a break from patting ourselves on the back from admiring our work achievements. This is called holiness.
And as much as we try to keep the sabbath, the more we shall receive the benefits/blessings of the sabbath.
There is a special blessing that God attaches to the 7th day which is quantifiable because it’s noticeable;
And it’s available to us provided we quit working on the sabbath day for the previously mentioned reasons.
Okay you gotta do what you’ve got to do, but as much as possible try not to work. Make it a holy day.
That list of things you drew up about what is required on the sabbath day is nonsense.
Here is a video called my sabbath testimony.
th-cam.com/video/FNd3-QtysMI/w-d-xo.html
Hi guys. Here is a piece of information that I found with regards to Deutoronomy 20 vs10 which says:- 'is “forced labor” a correct translation? Yes, it is a very good one. The King James Version (the AV) translated this phrase as “tribute” or “tributary” seventeen times… but it did so 400 years ago. Newer translations, like the NIV, ESV, NASB, HCSB, ISV, and GWT have responded to a fresher view of history, a better understanding of the ancient languages and the necessity of communicating using contemporary English by translating that Hebrew phrase as “forced labor” - which is a clearer rendering for today’s readers.
Most contemporary readers would understand “tribute” to mean paying money (which is not totally out of reason, because person/hours are the basis of value). But Deuteronomy 20:10-11 was more about people being captured and put to work - which is still technically tribute - but tribute is no longer the best word. That being said, the Douay-Rheims Bible (which I rarely cite) expresses more so than the others that the forced labor was the tribute - and I think that this is the best explanation of the AV’s use of the term.
“If at any time thou come to fight against a city, thou shalt first offer it peace. If they receive it, and open the gates to thee, all the people that are therein, shall be saved, and shall serve thee paying tribute. But if they will not make peace, and shall begin war against thee, thou shalt besiege it.” (Deuteronomy 20:10-12, D-R, emphasis mine)'
Hope this gives a bit more clarity to our atheist friends, I pray for you both Matt and Josh. God bless.
And we think for you. And have compassion for your attempts to square this circle. Cliffs closing is borderline a complete and utter lie. I mean how he ignored this whole debate and either out of old age or complete dishonesty said the same thing both opening and closing.
Matt doesn't condone slavery but yet he is a slave to sin...If he doesn't condone slavery, then why does he allow himself to be a slave to sin (in which he is actually supporting slavery)? The one who has set the most slaves free is the good shepherd Jesus Christ who gave His life for us all, the one who alone has the power to destroy the works of the devil in our lives. Matt, if you do not condone slavery, and yet you are a slave to sin, then why don't you run to the only one who can truly set you free? God bless.
🙈
He doesn’t believe in sin, his understanding of right and wrong is based on different principles than yours. A Muslim or Hindu (or even a different Christian from a different sect) could say the same exact thing about you being a slave to sin too. What does it even mean to be a slave to sin anyway?
Amen to that.
What is sin?
Buy a fucking dictionary and look up the definition of sin FFS, how can a person that has no reason to accept god's exist , sin against what does not have evidence of existing.
This is helarious because the audience well at least in the comment section here... the theists just don't listen or understand but they just feel / think that they won the debate.
Damn bro you’ve commented like 7+ times, what are you so heated for
And HILARIOUS too.
It's really sad to listen to a grown adult talk like this and ignore what they obviously so desperately trying to deny. The really sad part is that they are both lovely people who do so many good things.
@James G is your insane ass really trying to defend owning another human being as property?
See, kids? This is your brain on religion.
@James G if you, someone who is trying to morally justify slavery (doesn’t matter the fucking timeline), were to teleport back in time and live under the very conditions/rules you mentioned as a slave, would you be ok with that?
@James G was this a copy & paste? did you even read my comment, let alone answer my question? again, to reiterate zachary’s comment: children, this is your brain fried off indoctrination and inability to apply logic & reason as it relates to the real world
@James G uhh, no it wasn’t…
@James G yeah… still didn’t answer my question
Generally good but most of these, especially with Matt, come down to different definitions of words and contextual application thereof.
And when did Ray Comfort say "I don't believe everything in the Bible"? Unless that was again a misunderstanding of the meaning of words and contextual application.
They had a debate and that's roughly what he said. The only ones taking things out of context are the theists and then we go into a circle jerk because of it
Theists are the most dishonest ding bats I've ever had the displeasure of listening to
@@lewiskunst1089 excuse me I don't group you and other people don't necessarily group you into one large group and generalize like that I am someone who stand strong and friendly by God I don't put you in any category unless you choose the category for example if you tell me you're an atheist then you're nice used if you tell me you're a naturalist for naturalist the song but I don't put you in a group with other people just because it's something I want to say so don't do that with cs or God-fearing people or any group.
Ray comfort didn't say he didn't believe the Bible, he may have his own interpretations of things than other people, theologically.
@@lewiskunst1089 why are atheists so angry all the time? Angry over an imaginary being? Seems like a waste of time to me. Jesus can change your angry heart
I'm glad I don't try to debate this anymore. They never listen and just got nowhere to go.
One thing I would like to see in a debate is when someone doesn’t actually answer the question at hand or they try to jump to something else’s, I believe the moderator needs to pull them back and hold their feet to the fire till an answer is gave. I did see the moderator do this up to a point but Cliff was able to dance away from a few without a real answer, also when it comes to times some calls out another don’t interrupt. as if they are backing them in a Corner this is when the real answer will be squeeze out.
Where are the earlier church scholars writings on the understanding of this topic? I would love to hear someone from the 1st through the 15th or 16th centuries understanding of slavery!
Charles Finney He went around like Jesus did,back in his time
well common sense...slavery im Africa existed way before the white man..it had nothing to do with race and wasn't chattel slavery...they had rights...same in the Roman empire where jews were slaves and throughout the bible...it has been perversed overtime and that's sad
If you want that kind of info with actual sources. Go to Inspiring Philosophy
I'd rather be an indentured servant than homeless. Food, water, shelter, companionship, dignified work vs. sleeping on the streets and begging. Yes, 100%, any day.
Yea, Anti Theists keep equivocating indentured servitude with slavery, but they're not the same. Slavery was not beneficial, but indentured servitude could provide one with securities.
Pass, rather be free
I would rather be homeless than being owned as someones property that could be passed down to children and beaten as long as I dont die. Also while being beaten have no right to leave
I agree; life isn’t easy: I’d humble myself to become an indentured servant.
@@mollyambass7231 would you do so knowing that in the contract it states you could be abused as long as you dont die and that you cannot leave whenever you want to? Imagine getting punched in the face by your employer but you still need to work for him and he could do so again if he is not satisfied with you and you have no right to leave.
Am I the only one who is annoyed when the 3 hour discussion is cut off at the 1:20:00ish mark so people can pay to ask questions? I really like the open discussion and the superchat shit annoys me.. Not saying I'm right, maybe I'm crazy.
If God doesn't exist why do people get so upset when The Gospel is preached because the TRUTH hits us in the very fabric of our DNA & makes us look in the mirror. JESUS CHRIST is the ONLY TRUTH Hallelujah! If CHRIST doesn't live in you, then the Devil lives in you. It's that simple. I'm so thankful I didn't get overeducated in the Luciferin ELITES owned university's but was raised by poor Blueridge mountain parents who lived for JESUS CHRIST. I tried my way for 25 years & Satan nearly Destroyed me but God saved me 6 months ago & I'm truly Thankful God never gave up on me or my Wife who also got saved . JESUS CHRIST is the SAVIOUR.
People get upset because if religion leads scientific progress slows to a crawl, people will get abused for just not believing, preachers are free to manipulate and so on. I've got proof on the last two parts if you need that.
😢why do you believe in a god when out of the thousands still worshipped today, not one believer of any gods has evidenced any of them to actually exist. Why do you believe Jesus was an actual man that existed when other than stories written about him by no one actually knows who, of which there is not one account, record of his existence that is independently sourced, verified and corrobrated by any known to have existed persons by that same criteria that is evidence he actually did so. There are only three reasons to believe a god exist, 1/ one is indoctrinated to before their mind is formed, and groomed to accept those indoctrinated beliefs as true throughout ones formative years, 2/ one is a spiv, con man silver tongued snake oil salesman's dream, an absolutely gullible cunt , or 3/ like a drowning man they will reach out at a straw floating by to rescue them, they are the ones that cannot cope with the realities of living the one and only life we know with certainty we will ever live, belief in a god is a crutch , just like relying on mind bending drugs and alcohol.
Why didn't Noah's arch have aquariums to save the fish?
PROVE IT
@@derekardito2032Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Proverbs 26 : 4 . The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalm 53 : 1.
I love how James always looks so confused lmao
Good job Matt & josh.
Those who lead into to captivity will go into captivity
You have the free will to have a slave but will pay the consequences
It seems currently in America, we have the great talent of making comparisons between our modern Western culture and ancient ones that never had our modern laws and societal norms or even the same Religions between themselves. Obviously, slavery is immoral, but the world is a COMPLETELY different place now than it was 2- 4 thousand years ago, and there is absolutely no comparison between western society and the Ancient world- to compare the two equally just doesn't work, and "Consensus Scholarship" on ANYTHING is a bad answer, because a whole lot of people can be wrong about a whole lot of things all at the same time- it's happened throughout history. Please tell me WHY, if Matt doesn't believe the Pentateuch is even partially a historical document or that Moses may not have even existed, WHAT IS THE POINT, and why is he insulting and spitting about something that doesnt matter?
So then, morality of the bible is attached into world those people were living (I agree with this) so it's not "the word of god" anyone should take seriously as moral guide. That's the point, bible can't be claimed as a moral authority if there's moral teaching in one verse and immoral teaching in another. It's just a book, one of the most important ones, but still just one book, many people believe in moral authority of some other book because they claim it to be "holy book" with some kind of supernatural force behind it.
You absolutely CAN compare the modern world with the ancient world. The only real difference is time. Ancient times were a long time ago while modern times are more recent. Unless you are a moral relativist, you would agree that slavery is immoral NO MATTER WHAT TIME PERIOD!! That is the point and yet we still have millions of Christians bending over backwards to justify their evil god's condoning of atrocities like slavery and genocide.
One of Cliffe's common refrains is that God and the Bible gives "objective morality." If that's the case, the rules of morality don't change and should be clearly spelled out for us.
But clearly that's not the case or their entire argument here falls through the cracks.
So, which is it? Should we use the Bible for guidance on morality today, or is it no longer relevant?
@@sterlingwinston9629 right. My point is this contradicts his prior debates with Matt.
@@sterlingwinston9629 that's a completely different topic, so not relevant in this instance.
You can start with his video called "is relative morality moral?" But there are tons of them, it's a very consistent refrain.
It's impossible for him to make the argument he's making in this video AND for God to provide objective morality, both can't be true.
Those who lead into captivity will go into captivity. I don’t think he agrees with slavery but used it for the greater good. If slavery didn’t exist Joseph story wouldn’t have came to pass ... we can t understand everything but that doesn’t make him unjust.
Even things man mean for EVIL; God promises he will turn it for good. So God will use the suffering of his people for his plan. You are EXACTLY right! In no way does God condone SLAVERY. We also have to take into consideration that slavery was an acceptable practice in those days. Every culture has enslaved and every culture has been enslaved. We can't look at ancient times through the lens of 2021 moral standard. That's what the Atheist and Agnostic are doing. It's unfair and illogical.
Slavery is fine, just not to Israelites, unless they broke his commandments.
I think God takes the will of man and proves them wrong. This won’t be an everlasting thing judgement is on the way📖🔑
@@seekwisdom7254 Do you understand what you're quoting?
Revelation 13:10 (KJV) He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Just want to be sure you understand what you're talking about. That slavery and those being killed by the sword is what our faith and patience is in.
So... your all-powerful god couldn't have come up with something better than slavery?
I do not like Matt. Not because he’s an atheist because of his character and how he carries himself in his channel and as a human being. He’s a mocker and an arrogant person. It oozes out of him. I do not dislike people because of their belief. That’s ignorant. Character matters.
And Cliffe didn't act arrogant and loud and aggressive?
@justingary5322 Hm. I guess we watched two different videos then
Is it just me, or did Cliffs opening and closing statements have NOTHING to do with "biblical slavery" being immoral??
It is not your imagination.
It's definetely you. His point was that the Jewish law regulated pre existing slavery and made it NOT slavery. It was actually a great anti poverty system, that i wish we had today. Instead of being homeless and having your life destroyed and losing your family, you retained a home, family and dignity by working for 7 years for a guy who gave you enough money to pull you out of bankruptcy. Would you prefer to sell your work for 7 years or go hobo ? They didnt have the right to rape them, mutilate them, torture them or kill them. It was a work contract, and that is why the term "slave" is not used in the Bible. It's bondsmen, and "slave" is used in an entirely different context later on. The proof is in the pudding. The Christian world is the ONLY one that doesn't practice slavery today.
@george cobaleanu. While i fully understand your explanation i have just one question. How can something be slavery and not be slavery??
@@shavin1980ss "How can something be slavery and not be slavery??" It is so simple. People changed terms, and called more brutal practices a name that previously meant wage laborers or prisoners of war. After all, the Torah unequivocally prohibits (kidnapping) and the practice that we called slavery a couple of centuries ago.
@@КаналДляСебя-ь7у george you changed your name!! LOL
How can you make an argument "Well i dont believe the bible is true" when the literal topic of the debate is biblical morality of slavery. You have to acknowledge what the bible says regardless of whether you believe its true or not. Kind of a pointless debate anyways, its not like we still consider it wrong eating shellfish or mixing cloth, or having to sacrifice animals on an alter. It was a different time, everyone recognizes that.
Cliffe:
“WE DID NIT SAY WE BELIEVED EVERY WORD IN THE BIBLE!”
(The entire debate)
“THE BIBLE, THE BIBLE, THE BIBLE, THE BIBLE”
Well that obviously was the parts that he didn’t mean.. 😂
He is definitely a for the bible tells me so debater.
The Bible is meant to be read the it is meant to be.
We have not done away with indentured servitude! We are all debt slaves! Even if your house and property are paid for, if you don't keep working to pay the taxes, you will have an encounter with armed enforcers! WE ARE LEGAL SLAVES FROM BIRTH TO DEATH!
😊
I was looking for this comment.
So true
Stuart and Cliff do nothing but prosthelytize when asked to answer direct questions and then complain on the Bible being taken literally.
Plain language would be nice, we don’t hint at obscure ideas when training employees nor teaching in schools.
They are not providing any value to the discussion but merely preaching.
I guess that’s what happens when there is no defense within the writings.
I like how Matt says nowhere in The Bible does it say slaves are wrong but God Nowhere in The Bible says it's right. God or Jesus never once said slavery was OK in The Bible no specific words in The Bible says slavery was OK!
There are more words about HOW to conduct slavery, than there is on how to abolish it. Yea, what an "astute" observation 😂
The fact that the majority of professing Christians today oppose slavery makes this debate laughable.
Slavery is absolutly wrong. An absolute morality is challenging for athiestic believers
No it's not.
Atheists put so much effort to organize a debate with some God who doesn’t exist if they believe he doesn’t exist why all these debates 😂😂
That's how they make a living.
Jesus is the high witness of god he has made him know to us so when atheists say why doesn’t god revealed himself he did thru Jesus Christ there about 25 000 manuscripts of Jesus stories and the copies of these stories all say the same things over and over even Luke said it
Luke 1: Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, 2 just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, 3 I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent The·ophʹi·lus
I can answer. I advocate for the position of atheism as it is often misconstrued to be an ideology, belief system, worldview, or even a religion. It is none of those. Atheism is a POSITION - a state of affair. It is the position of suspending any acknowledgement as to the existence of gods until sufficient credible evidence is presented. It is natural, rational, and prudent to be skeptical of unsubstantiated claims, especially extraordinary ones. Wouldn't you agree?
@@theoskeptomai2535 Jesus Christ is the evidence he proved he came from heaven and he proved he rose from the dead period
@@toto11132 Jesus Christ is not the evidence. Do you not know what evidence is? Are you endeavoring to sound like an idiot?
A modern day homeless person living in your house free room and food just has to clean and help around the house
That's how you imagine any form of slavery? 😂
I watched Cliff today debating college students. He did something I found to be very disingenuous, he said that science points to god, not a god, his god. The leap from god to my god is absolutely enormous. He did it with no explanation of how it was his god.
It’s his God according to the evidence for the New Testament.
@@FuddlyDud There is none. The bible is not evidence that the bible is true. Hearsay accounts are the entirety of the evidence for God
@@chrisworthman3191
Can you explain the difference between historical testimonies and historical hearsay?
I ask because I think you are conflating modern hearsay standards with historical narratives of antiquity. Both are quite different, so I want to make sure we use standards properly. :)
@@FuddlyDud Hearsay is repeating something you were told without first hand knowledge. It is most certainly not sufficient for extraordinary claims.
@@chrisworthman3191
"Hearsay is repeating something you were told without first hand knowledge."
Correct, that is current evidence for modern court rooms. However, I asked you what is the difference for historical testimony compared to historical hearsay since we have to work within the contexts of the time.
For example, modern hearsay evidence is meant to esnure the ability to cross-examine the person being quoted. This is obviously impossible when the text is from nearly 2000 years ago, hence why historical narratives involve different tests to determine their veracity. If we applied modern hearsay rules to historical docs, basically nothing would be accepted as historically verifiable! :P
"It is most certainly not sufficient for extraordinary claims."
Right, and what is sufficient for extraordinary claims?
Say, for example, you were told by a trsuted friend he was abducted by aliens. More than this, his household/family also told you they saw him get abducted.
Then, say a majority of your neighborhood and friend circle stepped forward claiming the same thing, that they saw said friend get abducted.
Then, say other places start experiencing the say phenomenon of people getting abducted to the point where hundreds claim abduction and thousands vouch for them.
Assume all of this is only earnest testimony and the reports only grow from here. At what point do you believe the testimony, or at least recognize it could be possible?
The atheist and agnostic lied about Numbers 21 and Numbers 23 in the Bible. It specifically states that you shall not make one a slave in those chapters.
Wonderfull watching the Christian brain shake itself apart. Matt as usual is bulletproof.
It's such a red flag when Stuart smiles and laughs when Josh calls him out for saying the young girls who were taken as plunder were fortunate simply because they were allowed to survive. Don't know if he's married or has daughters, but damn! And seeing he and his dad fist bump over Cliffe saying that these girls "may not have been raped" is horrendous.
Someone built this cell phone hardware and created and programmed the operating system just like our human DNA's complex coded strands. I understand the confusion if you don't study the word and experience the relationship but to believe everything came from nothing.....
So who created the complex creator? If you're arguing that a being showing complexity in its makeup can't possibly exist without a designer/creator, then surely a complex creator also had to have a creator, and a creator had to have created that creator, ad nauseum.
@@Nataruma No because they get their special pleading out of "God is different"
@@lugialover09 But that doesn't follow with the logic used. So seeing as there's a break in that logic then they cannot expect to have anyone take that argument seriously. It's fascinating to see the cognitive dissonance, but frustrating to deal with.
@@Nataruma Right, that's what I meant seeing as special pleading is generally seen as a fallacy.
The issue is that nobody knows the origin of the universe. But some ppl pretend to know with such confidence that they have forgotten they don't know like everyone else.
The slaves were free to choose whether they wanted to be "slaves" or not. My main point being, it was illegal to return them if they ran away. In other words, if they quit their "job" nobody could force them to go back. They were free to choose to stay or leave with no repercussions.
@@rampagingswine9475 that’s the point… people like to make it seem like They where shackled Working field slaves but in all reality they where employees….
Except that same person, those slaves that escaped, could in fact become slaves again, including of the same people they ran away from. Another tribe, nation could capture those slaves themselves, make them a slave again, and even resell them to the same people, which would not be returning them, just reselling them but as slaves.
Cliffe is such a G. Love the way he looks at his son too. Happy Dad.
So basically .....it was objectively morally right to have slaves in he past....then when humans decided it wasn’t good.....god changed his mind and then said it was objectively morally wrong . I get it now
The Bible was against slavery from the Beginning, Exodus 21:16 states:
16And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death."
So God ordered the death penalty for kidnapping and selling.
@@groache1501 lol no .... he was against the Israelites being slaves ...... couldn’t care less about anyone else
@ Jericho Sharman, there is no where in that scripture that is stated only for the Israelites, that is you adding to the scripture! The apostle Paul later on in the new Testament understood that stealing a man, or menstealing, was always contrary to God's will for mankind according to this scripture
1 Timothy 1:9-10
"9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for MENSTEALERS, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine"
Menstealing, which obviously means kidnapping is grouped in with murderers and lawless behavior!
Also God commanded the Israelite to love the strangers and not to vex them according to
Leviticus 19:33-34
33And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God."
@@groache1501 actually it’s history, and it’s in the Old Testament where they were perfectly fine with taking slaves from other nations but it was illegal to use their own as slaves. It’s rather overtly obvious I’m surprised you haven’t read it.
Clearly this god in the bible is a ruthless maniac and you can see with his followers today they usually have a very poor and paltry behaviour generally . Judging by its fruit, which is quite disgusting , I would advise people against being Christians or dignifying the bible as having anything worthy of aspiring too.
If they took any person against their will, and sold them, the law of God stated that they should be put to death. The scriptures say this, not me! The scriptures also say the Israelites were to love the strangers as one of their own. So any person who enslaved another, would be violating the scriptures, as the scriptures are very clear about that.
But remember that if evolution is true, then a human being is a lifeform on this planet, just like lizards, donkeys, monkeys, birds, fish, roaches, etc. There would be no basis for acting as if somehow our species would have worth and significance. Evolution does not have a will or mind to dictate worth or value. So even if the Bible commanded slavery, there would be no real basis for acting like some great immoral action occurred.
This is what Religion does to you. Cliff abiousoly knowns that slavery is immortal. But he can't reconcile that the very God that he believes in and worships IS the one who prescribes it, and how to do it. If slavery was mentioned in any other "holy book" he would waste no time in saying that tha God was evil. But since it's the God that he believes in, he just can't because his moral compass would be destroyed. It's so abious. You don't need to be an Atheist or a Theist to notice the problem with this.
Where on earth did the bible says that god promotes slavery
@@meowyme2573 Do you believe or know that owning a human is immortal? If yes or no, why do you believe or know?
So you just ASSUME that he would call another holy book's god evil if slavery was mentioned? You must know everyone's intentions. if the God of the bible didnt want to look bad, I dont think He would have stories where he judged civilizations. Like the flood.
@@meowyme2573 No commandment stating "Thou shalt not own a person as property". Plus in exodus 21 god actually tells the Jews to pick their slaves from surrounding pagan tribes.
@@miguelosci If God dosnt exists then owning another human is neither Good or evil
With respect to sins, we all are slaves. And Jesus-Christ offers freedom from the slavery of sins to whosoever accepts Jesus-Christ's offer.
Got any evidence to support those claims?
Pro Slavery vs Anti Slavery
neither side are pro slaverly
@@hecticfunentertainment9373 right! One side suffers from severe cognitive dissonance.
@@airborne1170 which side is that
Wow, I mean I was kind of expecting a one-sided debate, but holy shit was this a smack down. Never seen so many moments when one side was so silent and could hardly answer half the questions that were asked them. And the Christians were literally getting lectured on biblical text by the atheists. Just amazing and ironic.
I didn’t get that at all. There is a big difference in having faith in OT vs NT. Our sins were/are washed away from the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The OT is valid and has value, but there is an inherent wrong received message to believe we
are saved through acts or works. We are saved through Jesus Christ dying on the cross, accepting Him and repenting. The rest is historical semantics
@@AR-ed8jp You certainly know your mythology!
@@theoskeptomai2535 Not mythology. Faith.
@@AR-ed8jp No. You have faith in mythology. And because you apparently don't know what a myth is, I will provide one with examples.
*myth* - noun *_dictionary.com_* (parenthetical examples mine)
1. Traditional (Christian) or legendary story (the crucifixion of Jesus), usually concerning some being (son of god) or hero (messiah) or event (resurrection), with or *_without_* a determinable basis of fact (evidence) or a natural explanation (supernatural), especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods (father, son, holy spirit) and explains some practice (prayer), rite (salvation), or phenomenon of (creation) of nature.
@@theoskeptomai2535 same way ur great-grandfather is a myth
Moderator please do a little more moderating. When Cliff refuse to answer question time and time again in an obvious attempt to hide fact he was getting slaughtered . I know you are nice guy.
Matt: Slavery is wrong because I think it"s wrong. Cliffe: Slavery is wrong because we are made in God's image and have dignity that makes it wrong.
You're wrong. Matt: Slavery is wrong because slaves suffer. Cliffe: Slavery is wrong because God doesn't like slavery (which means slavery would be good if God would like it).
@James G There is no former slaves now in USA. And why would descendants of former slaves be compensated? Why should white poor guy that never owned slaves himself pay tax dollars that would go to rich black guy?
Your - or at least cliffes - god is totally okay with slavery.
Exodus 21.
But it doesn’t matter in the end.
All religions are incarnations of primitive and childish superstition.
Lol yet the lord encouraged slavery and Matt didn't.
Also slavery is wrong because it violates the will of another. Yet god told slaves to obey their master.
One thing in Stuart and Cliffe Knechtle's favor, they actually posted this embarrassment on their own channel! 😲
How is it an embarrassment?
Religion just keeps moving the goal post..
Same can be said for athiest
But what goal posts are you talking about
The truth is very very deep and complicated
As usual, the theists had nothing convincing to say, offered no evidence, relied on their storybook for answers, and sounded like fools.
Historical record, not story book
@@joshuaolutobi3564 it's a book of fables
That's it
There is very little historic accuracy that the bible can show to lend itself the credence of being an inerrant book claimed to be written or "inspired" by the Abrahamic God
Of course certain historical locations are mentioned in the bible but the people and whether or not they existed is not in contention
And Matt is basically coming from one brain made up of random processes that cant be trusted. Overall the scriptures dignify you.
@@randyrobinson2609 They certainly don't dignify slaves and women whose wombs were open.
@@joshuaolutobi3564 prove it
God is not responsible for sin But he’s got the right to punish you because of sin what 🙄
A judge is not responsible for crime, but has the authority to punish even his own children who commit crimes. It doesn’t mean the judge enjoys it, but must fulfill his role as judge since it’s his authority alone. :/
I can hear Cliffe saying to himself “love thy enemies Cliffe... love thy enemies”
I can hear him saying anytime anyone pisses him off to ,,,"my belt comes off real quick boy"
@@faborwick5887 👍👍👍 lol exellent!
I can hear it to and God was asking a lot on that command. I find it difficult to do.
@@T1999-c6u There is no indication that there is a sky daddy in which your talking about. Yet there is a God who created everything and His name is Jesus Christ God Almighty. There is no other God .
@@T1999-c6u Well you got more than enough proof as it is what more could you possibly need. Jesus Christ who is God in the flesh is proof enough by Himself. Do you want to know the truth ?
Matt: "I keep asking a question that you don't answer how is this binding on anybody who's not a biblic bible-believing christian
Cliffe" "Well obviously i would think you'd be able to answer that question yourself "
Stuart, it's clear you're starting to see the song and dance of Christianity. I really hope you find the strength to break the cycle. Liberate yourself and all those that follow you.
Not at all. He doesn’t put his faith in Christianity, which is imperfect. He has faith and follows Jesus Christ.
He is the most logically convoluted apologist I've heard, and he makes his living off the Bible. So ... no.
Why tf would he do that and lose his family his dad his job at the church his friends for what? It's not worth it. I'm an atheist and I wouldn't recommend that just if anything stop with Christian apologetics if he wanted to
Paul says obey the government.
Admits there is slavery.
But resist evil.
Does this indicate slavery at the time was not evil, but just a fact of life??
*WARNING REGARDING THE RESIDENT TROLLS*
For the unfamiliar, committed trolls on this channel include:
Bonnie, Jason Noble, Traskalle, and MyContext.
They are antagonists, atheists, scoffers, trolls, liars, and are only seeking to waste your time.
Just FYI. Engage them at your own discretion.
@Silenced one no, it has come from long discussions with these three or four atheist ruthlessly ignore many facts we asked or shown or even in the philosophical discussion refuse to answer questions and they that's coming back to say osculate or filibuster by Etc if you haven't talked with you easiest then you'd understand there's one nice guy on here who doesn't lie to us who is it rude but doesn't to ignore questions and he's me if you have full respect for him that's the difference.
@Silenced one
Check some of the threads under these videos bud...
But if you've got something to bring to the table, then how about bringing it? Unless of course, all you really want to do is waste people's time... I mean, you just claimed that you KNOW that Christianity is false! _Really?_ HOW do you KNOW that Christianity is false and WHY should we believe whatever it is that you do? You want to rumble? _Let's rumble!_
PS: Nobody said not to talk to them; just to do so at their own discretion.
@@jessebryant9233 his nickname fits, he has been quiet on this thread alright.
@Silenced one
TH-cam gremlins have been gobbling up posts here. Let's try posting one paragraph at a time...
@Silenced one
So you believe that Christianity is true? Of course you don't! _C'mon bra, why you playin' games?_ Is it because you're just out to waste people's time talking about something you aren't willing to consider?
In Christian tradition, the four canonical Gospel accounts in the New Testament are attributed to the Four Evangelists: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John:Matthew
According to Christian tradition, Matthew was one of Jesus' twelve apostles and a tax collector from Capernaum. Some say he wrote the Gospel of Matthew around AD 85-90.Mark
Some say Mark was written by Peter's secretary and was influenced by Peter's stories, wisdom, and leadership until his martyrdom between 64 and 67 CE. Others say the authorship of Mark is unknown. Some say it was written around AD 66-70.Luke
Some say Luke was written by a close traveling companion of Paul. Others say Luke wrote the Gospel of Luke around AD 85-90.John
Some say John was written by the "beloved disciple" mentioned in the fourth gospel. Others say John was an apostle who had known Jesus and wrote the Gospel of John around AD 90-110. The apostle Paul dates to 49-53 for Galatians, Thessalonians, and Corinthians which is 16-20 years after the trial, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and his writings collaborate with the four gospels and even credits the apostles and Luke (a physician) and Mark (a scholar) as being reliable witnesses. To date we have over 5800 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, with an astounding 2.6 million pages of biblical text. If we lost every copie of the New Testament, we could reconstruct it with the textual and manuscript evidence we currently have to date with 99% accuracy and the 1% that could be debated doesn't alter the meaning in any meaningful way.
Cliffe is sooo f-ing good! I like him.
Ofc his arguments are laughable, but they're the most convincing I've ever heard. What he's great at is drawing your attention away from the weaknesses using his sonorous exegesis.
The whole bible story is that man disobeyed God and sinned and became slave to sin and God came and redeemed them from sin and made them free from sin.
Sure, that's the story. Now, can you prove demonstrate that it's true?
I love how, everytime James mentions a verse, Matt (the atheist) knows exactly what the verse says, and Cliffe (the Christian) has to flick through the Bible and check.
Matt had all the verses containing slavery themes already highlighted on his computer probably, while cliffe has the entire 39 old and 27 new flowing through his head, x
Because it’s good to always check if that person is in context
@@allynaquino4641 Yeah but Matt didn't need to go back and check, he knew straight off the bat, that's my point. 🤣🤣🤣
@@shevy7197 Well, you don't know that. We can only go off what we see. Ya know, evidence. 😏
@@kierananthony25 you can't see the wind, but you can FEEL the effects of the wind, exactly the same with GOD
Is the term slave an archaic term for employee?
What if slave/servant was the term used in lieu of employee since the modern term of employee, maid or butler didn't exist at the time.
Although, helper could be used, it seems slave is the equivalent to someone that were employed to their master, boss or manager.
These servants weren't paid with money, but instead a trade of their work for shelter, food & clothing.
Although hurting them was wrong, it was the unfortunate punishment in case they disobeyed or wronged the master.
We've come a long way as far as service goes from ownership to employment. People learn and given wisdom and many of that wisdom comes from the Bible.
I cannot believe I came to rewatch this debate after watching it on modern day debates channel, and I see a comment section full of people saying cliff won, you guys are so blind aren’t you?
Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, Dillahunty isn't as reliable as so many of his fans insist? Besides, Dr. Bowen is more of an expert on Assyrian history; I don't think he's as reliable on history surrounding the Bible.
@@promethium-145 what? What does his reliability have to do with how bad he shit all over cliffe here?
@@brucebanner1638 I was pointing out reliability because it seemed important. If Cliffe poorly performed in the debate, I guess that's on him.
I just feel real sorry for atheists, because one day they will have to find out the truth and it will be too late to do anything about it. Also, the laws in the Bible are not required for your salvation. John 3:16 explains this very succinctly. Believe in Jesus and you are saved. Since your belief is the only thing required, nothing you do can lose your salvation. Not to say itcan't bring great pain here on earth and rewards in Heaven.
chill down, big dog.
Where does it say you have to believe in god before you die? Everyone could repent right before they die even if they were an athiest their whole life too lol. Also your comment achieved nothing except voice your belief lmao.
May Allah guide you
@@cryptedd2444 Do you think their belief would be genuine? Or were they just saying they believed just in case? Belief isn't just a declaration. It has to be a genuine belief that Jesus was God in human form, sent to die for all of your sins so that you could have eternal life. You really think an atheist is going to come to that realization at the last second? Not saying it isn't possible. Just not likely. You use the word "repent" like most pastors use it. Like it's to ask for forgiveness for your sins. Repent simply means "a changing of mind". You do not have to ask for forgiveness for your sins. They have already been paid for. You just have to accept the gift by believing that it's true.
@@hueysimon2726 A lot of people, atheists and agnostics alike turn to Christianity when a loved one dies or when they feel they are near death. Fear alone can give anyone a heartfelt belief.
Cliffe wins.
For what reason? The entire debate he tried to change the subject and subvert his way around the issue because he didn’t want to answer.
"The Bible agrees that slavery is wrong"
Where does it say this?
So many statements concerning other aspects of life, but slavery was a society and government issue. Christians should just treat property better
It's such a massive self-report when Christians say that without the threat of hell they see no reason not to commit crimes, you're really showing us the superiority of theist morality guys.
yup. these theists tell on themselves to the world that they are nothing more than sociopaths.
Do Cliffe or his son ever comment here, or on any of their other videos? I would like to ask both of them what their occupation is.
They have an email that you can ask questions. I have its on the grace community chirchwebsite
Cliffe and his son were used car salesman before then they realized they can make more money selling religious bs to the fools.
Deuteronomy 20:11-14 “If they accept (offer of peace) and open their gates, all the people in the city shall be subject to FORCED LABOUR and shall WORK FOR YOU. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to the city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, PUT TO THE SWORD ALL THE MEN IT. ALL THE WOMEN, THE CHILDREN, THE LIVESTOCK and everything else in the city, YOU MAY TAKE THESE AS PLUNDER FOR YOURSELVES.”
Shortly followed by Deuteronomy 20:16-17 “However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as inheritance, DO NOT LEAVE ALIVE ANYTHING THAT BREATHES. COMPLETELY DESTROY THEM... as the Lord your God has commanded you.”
But I suppose it does say in the New Testament to love thy neighbour, so I guess it’s all ok?
Ceremonial/state law lol, christians don’t follow that because of Jesus’ coming, It’s only those who are Jewish that follow ceremonial law
Context, time, circumstances and reason shows that slavery was different back then wicked pecans; against demon worshippers.
Luckily we have a "Marxist" telling us what's right and wrong... yeah right...
@@godloves9163 Haha. Of course - I QUOTE from your holy book, something that I'm sure you'd agree is abhorrent, and the only defence you have is - attack his political beliefs?
@James G What is your point exactly? The Bible (also known as the "Good Book") clearly advocates genocide, pillage and slavery (as well as homophobia, misogyny, animal sacrifice, to name but a few), which Christians continuously try to deny or apologise for. I don't know what anything about slavery in the US prior to abolition or the Second World War has to do with it?
Whether or not it actually happened is irrelevant. This is supposedly part of an eternal doctrine revealed by a god.
2:20:28
*fist bump*
.:Hey, we got that one right:.
opps, your adherence to a book as a moral compass just hit you in the face
It is humanitarian for god to proclaim procurment of virigin females so that they can live a life as though they were property.
If god is all knowing, and as "his creations" NOW know this is to be immoral, why did god just seem to say f it, they'll figure it out in 2000 years??